Official Staff Explanation on how Green Hybrid/Race Penalty XP will function, please?

[Chortles Snort|eS]

-a concerned Troll Shadowknight

[garfo]

I'm not getting my hopes up, but I for one would loooove to see hybrid penalties removed for Green. I'm all for racial penalties, but it just doesn't make sense to have so many classes disincentivized for 2/3rds of the server's lifespan.

Back in the day, nobody knew about penalties -- at least I sure didn't -- so you still saw a diversity of classes represented.

Inb4 "git gud" -- I don't have endless time to sink, I'd love to be able to keep up with my friends without feeling squeezed into playing only a select few classes.

But as I said, I don't expect this and I understand the opposite argument as well.

[Danth]

Assume class penalties (which are NOT merely limited to hybrids, that's a common misconception) will function in their classic manner until someone says otherwise.

Danth

[loramin]

Assume EVERYTHING will function in their classic manner until someone says otherwise.

FTFY :D

If it's not in http://wiki.project1999.com/Non-Classic_Compendium or Nilbog's giant pre-Green bug thread, odds are very high that it will be ...

https://i.imgur.com/iO2ALl5.gif

[btravis1990]

I asked the same thing when green was announced. Llandris confirmed they will be in until they take it out on a specified timeline patch.

So Troll Sk's looking at about 60%+ xp penalty lol.. "hell mode" character. hahah

[Danth]

68 per cent for a Troll Shadow Knight. It's the slowest possible combination in the original game.

Aside from racial penalties, the four INT casters all have a 10% penalty. Monks have a 20% penalty. Hybrids have a 40% base penalty. Class penalties multiply with racial penalties, hence that Iksar Monk has a 44% penalty (worse than a Paladin or Bard!). Group experience split is based on a character's total experience and is not split evenly. Hence a higher-level Warrior can still "suck up" more of a group's experience than a lower-level Shadow Knight would.

Unfortunately the majority of the player base is totally ignorant with respect to how the experience mechanics work, uninterested in learning, and in practice they'll simply discriminate against hybrids for the most part. That's classic too, in its own way.

Danth

[Chortles Snort|eS]

I am hoping Staff may officially detail how XP would be distributed in the following scenario on Green:

CLR
WIZ
DRU
ROG
ENC
SHD (me)

*i personally don’t know the answer other than do I eat the groups XP a little, a lot, not really? (etc.)

all I remember from my red experience is that it was exTremEly SloW solo

[Danth]

They're unlikely to detail it for you. They program it, put it in-game. If they're nice they'll tell you it's in place. It's usually up to the players to figure out the specifics.

Your list needs character levels too. Under the classic experience system, experience is split based on total character experience. If a level 22 Human Warrior leaves a group and the group replaces him with a level 24 human warrior, the new arrival takes a larger split because his character has more total experience.

There's a really good article on the P99 Wiki detailing how the classic experience system worked.

Danth

[Baler]

68 per cent for a Troll Shadow Knight.

OP he's not BSing you.
Troll -20%
SK -40%

It will be classic hybrid exp penalty. Until the hybrid exp penalty is removed in timeline accurate a patch.

Edit: January 2001 patch to be specific
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211758

[zaneosak]

I am hoping Staff may officially detail how XP would be distributed in the following scenario on Green:

CLR
WIZ
DRU
ROG
ENC
SHD (me)

*i personally don’t know the answer other than do I eat the groups XP a little, a lot, not really? (etc.)

all I remember from my red experience is that it was exTremEly SloW solo

Hello sir. I made this google sheet to hypothetically build groups and see the outcome: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kuGt_NC5Mb7SOEOtAJwWt0gFBbQH1FhndV8CN6BdANE/edit?usp=sharing

You can download your own copy of the sheet and play with it yourself if you wish.

I have went ahead and taken your scnerio and built it out real fast -- I used level 17s camping orc highway as an example. Zone and levels of your counterparts have a huge impact on how the XP will distribute, for this example I did not put any other hybrids in it but the main thing you should take away is that if you are ALL THE SAME LEVEL, you will take the same amount of kills to level due to the fact that you need more xp to get your level and they need less, which in turn means you take more xp per mob and they take less. This is the same concept with leveling with higher / lower level people.

Bottom line -- it wont be that bad if you are playing with people around your level. As a Troll Shadowknight though, if you group with people ALOT HIGHER LEVEL than you, then you will start to feel the sting of the penalty alot more than if you stayed with people your level. And much the same concept, your group mates won't see the massive negative effects of grouping with you unless you are 1-2 levels higher than them.

bottom line #2 -- stay within a level of your group mates and you wont feel the effects as badly and neither will they.


https://i.imgur.com/j8ig3oB.jpg

[Chortles Snort|eS]

I guess I just wanted to know officially if a full group with me a troll (SK) in it will get negative XP
I didn’t stop to think the answer to this question would be confidential
Thank you elveS

[Deathrydar]

I guess I just wanted to know officially if a full group with me a troll (SK) in it will get negative XP
I didn’t stop to think the answer to this question would be confidential
Thank you elveS

Don't even worry about it. If you can't find a group due to the experience penalty, let me know and I will come and group with you!

[Fammaden]

bottom line #2 -- stay within a level of your group mates

Which is also simply a good rule of thumb for xp grouping in general regardless of any penalties, and really the number one thing to consider overall. Which is why its extra obnoxious seeing stuff like those level 45's show up in KC and act all ignorant if someone tells them to go back to CoM.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Hello sir. I made this google sheet to hypothetically build groups and see the outcome: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kuGt_NC5Mb7SOEOtAJwWt0gFBbQH1FhndV8CN6BdANE/edit?usp=sharing

You can download your own copy of the sheet and play with it yourself if you wish.

I have went ahead and taken your scnerio and built it out real fast -- I used level 17s camping orc highway as an example. Zone and levels of your counterparts have a huge impact on how the XP will distribute, for this example I did not put any other hybrids in it but the main thing you should take away is that if you are ALL THE SAME LEVEL, you will take the same amount of kills to level due to the fact that you need more xp to get your level and they need less, which in turn means you take more xp per mob and they take less. This is the same concept with leveling with higher / lower level people.

Bottom line -- it wont be that bad if you are playing with people around your level. As a Troll Shadowknight though, if you group with people ALOT HIGHER LEVEL than you, then you will start to feel the sting of the penalty alot more than if you stayed with people your level. And much the same concept, your group mates won't see the massive negative effects of grouping with you unless you are 1-2 levels higher than them.

bottom line #2 -- stay within a level of your group mates and you wont feel the effects as badly and neither will they.


https://i.imgur.com/j8ig3oB.jpg

Thank u for this

[zaneosak]

I guess I just wanted to know officially if a full group with me a troll (SK) in it will get negative XP
I didn’t stop to think the answer to this question would be confidential
Thank you elveS

Not sure if you saw my reply above but you will see that you won't ever get negative experience as far as net XP, you will slightly hurt the groups total XP per hour gain by a small amount. For example if you are swapped out with a Warrior Human as a tank, the group will have to kill 30 less mobs (maybe 30-40 minutes of time) to ding. It's not going to be significant enough for people to avoid you.

[Baler]

according to the patch notes I linked they had groups exp being averaged to compensate for hybrid exp penalty. I dont know if that was classic or if that will be on green.

[zaneosak]

Which is also simply a good rule of thumb for xp grouping in general regardless of any penalties, and really the number one thing to consider overall. Which is why its extra obnoxious seeing stuff like those level 45's show up in KC and act all ignorant if someone tells them to go back to CoM.

So true -- I wish I knew back in the day how bad that effected me. Even on P99 going to Sebilis as a 52 to get in what I thought was a sweet XP group in the disco.... when I did not even realize how badly I was gimping myself grouping with 5 level 54-56 players. The things we learn over time.

[BlackBellamy]

I would like an Official Staff Explanation (OSE) on what to do about people making up Excel sheets so they can justify their math-based racism.

[zaneosak]

I would like an Official Staff Explanation (OSE) on what to do about people making up Excel sheets so they can justify their math-based racism.

Good thing this tool was created to combat that and show people who are worried about it that the actual real-game examples as it plays out usually amount to what is a +/- hour of game time gained or lost in an average case of grouping. Math nerds who like numbers like myself win and so does everybody else who wants to know the real effects of the system. win-win.

[El-Hefe]

SK and Pally Hybrid penalty means people might actually play Warriors.

People don't get that every little thing that gets changed ripples through the server in big ways, you might think that removing hybrid penalties is a small change that won't hurt anyone. But it'd drastically change the make up of the server and skew it towards being overall less classic.

[zaneosak]

SK and Pally Hybrid penalty means people might actually play Warriors.

People don't get that every little thing that gets changed ripples through the server in big ways, you might think that removing hybrid penalties is a small change that won't hurt anyone. But it'd drastically change the make up of the server and skew it towards being overall less classic.

I don't see this being the case. People should play what they want to play. SK and Pallys tank so much better than warriors for most of the leveling journey , especially when there is no weapons readily available. I'd personally rather have a snap aggro-ing SK in my Lower Guk Frenzy group than a warrior (for example) but I'd take whatever I can get because that's the way it should be. If you're min-maxing your groups based on class, you probably are in a guild or have a group of friends in mind to group with.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Hello sir. I made this google sheet to hypothetically build groups and see the outcome: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kuGt_NC5Mb7SOEOtAJwWt0gFBbQH1FhndV8CN6BdANE/edit?usp=sharing

You can download your own copy of the sheet and play with it yourself if you wish.

I have went ahead and taken your scnerio and built it out real fast -- I used level 17s camping orc highway as an example. Zone and levels of your counterparts have a huge impact on how the XP will distribute, for this example I did not put any other hybrids in it but the main thing you should take away is that if you are ALL THE SAME LEVEL, you will take the same amount of kills to level due to the fact that you need more xp to get your level and they need less, which in turn means you take more xp per mob and they take less. This is the same concept with leveling with higher / lower level people.


Bottom line -- it wont be that bad if you are playing with people around your level. As a Troll Shadowknight though, if you group with people ALOT HIGHER LEVEL than you, then you will start to feel the sting of the penalty alot more than if you stayed with people your level. And much the same concept, your group mates won't see the massive negative effects of grouping with you unless you are 1-2 levels higher than them.

bottom line #2 -- stay within a level of your group mates and you wont feel the effects as badly and neither will they.


https://i.imgur.com/j8ig3oB.jpg

Looking at the graph and a bit weary of its accuracy. It definitely doesn't take 240 mobs to gain a single level in Oasis

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Not sure if you saw my reply above but you will see that you won't ever get negative experience as far as net XP, you will slightly hurt the groups total XP per hour gain by a small amount. For example if you are swapped out with a Warrior Human as a tank, the group will have to kill 30 less mobs (maybe 30-40 minutes of time) to ding. It's not going to be significant enough for people to avoid you.

Good thing this tool was created to combat that and show people who are worried about it that the actual real-game examples as it plays out usually amount to what is a +/- hour of game time gained or lost in an average case of grouping. Math nerds who like numbers like myself win and so does everybody else who wants to know the real effects of the system. win-win.

Insignificant for ONE level perhaps, sure! On the other hand not only does that additional time start to add up quickly over multiple levels, it also becomes MORE PRONOUNCED as levels (and therefore the exp required to level) increases. All this while many people are going to be rushing to level up so they can be amongst the first wave of players to hit the high-level camps, meaning they're going to be averse to ANYTHING that will slow them down (to any degree)

What about hell levels? Good luck getting a group invite as a hell-level-45 Troll SK!

SK and Pally Hybrid penalty means people might actually play Warriors.


People will ALWAYS play Warriors! Not only the are they 100% REQUIRED for any raid content post-classic they're also the single best gear-scaling class in the game and a lot of people find that gear-based progression to be rewarding. Furthering that agenda, they also tend to get defaulted gear-priority anytime a guild moves on to new raid targets! (which obviously attracts people as well)

[zaneosak]

Looking at the graph and a bit weary of its accuracy. It definitely doesn't take 240 mobs to gain a single level in Oasis

Only way it could be inaccurate is if the ZEM was wrong (they are an estimate that is definitely correct in many zones but not all) Oasis may indeed have an XP bonus of some kind.

[zaneosak]

Insignificant for ONE level perhaps, sure! On the other hand not only does that additional time start to add up quickly over multiple levels, it also becomes MORE PRONOUNCED as levels (and therefore the exp required to level) increases. All this while many people are going to be rushing to level up so they can be amongst the first wave of players to hit the high-level camps, meaning they're going to be averse to ANYTHING that will slow them down (to any degree)

What about hell levels? Good luck getting a group invite as a hell-level-45 Troll SK!

If you are racing to max level, you are going to be soloing or duo-ing and you will already have your leveling path set. If you are going to start waiting for tanks to come along that only meet your criteria, I am sure your XP per minute sitting at a nice ZERO will be great waiting 90 minutes for the perfect non troll non ogre warrior tank to come along.

If you're racing, you're gonna be in a group of mages slaughtering I believe.

[El-Hefe]

I don't see this being the case. People should play what they want to play. SK and Pallys tank so much better than warriors for most of the leveling journey , especially when there is no weapons readily available. I'd personally rather have a snap aggro-ing SK in my Lower Guk Frenzy group than a warrior (for example) but I'd take whatever I can get because that's the way it should be. If you're min-maxing your groups based on class, you probably are in a guild or have a group of friends in mind to group with.

SKs and Pallys do tank so much better than Warriors, that’s why it makes sense for them to have a penalty. Otherwise, what’s the point of playing a warrior at all? Yes, people should play what they find fun, but obviously the hybrid penalty will result in some people picking Warrior instead, which is great for a server aiming for a classic feel.

[El-Hefe]

People will ALWAYS play Warriors! Not only the are they 100% REQUIRED for any raid content post-classic they're also the single best gear-scaling class in the game and a lot of people find that gear-based progression to be rewarding. Furthering that agenda, they also tend to get defaulted gear-priority anytime a guild moves on to new raid targets! (which obviously attracts people as well)

Raiding is like... 10% of the game.

Compared to other classes, warriors are especially rare on blue.

[deadlycupcakez]

What people forget is that the XP penalty is really FOR THE GROUP and not exclusively the hybrid/int caster/race. That means if hybrids are rolling with a group of buddies and grinding out together for the most of their play time - they will stay the same level as you.

The XP penalties can feel very overwhelming when speculating on pen and paper or when actually soloing (ironically the hybrids, excluding bards, do not have incredible solo capabilities early on). During a group, there is a slight delay to achieving a full level (when grouping with same leveled individuals), but admittedly not a single group mate will be able to tell you how much quicker it would’ve been with a different class in your stead, and will not even notice.

The perception of the slowness (and grass-greener with a different class mindset) will be the only thing they notice if anything.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Raiding is like... 10% of the game.

Compared to other classes, warriors are especially rare on blue.

Well I'm just gonna flat-out disagree! If you believe this then I think you'll be very surprised at the number of Warriors you see running around on launch!

[Deathrydar]

but admittedly not a single group mate will be able to tell you how much quicker it would’ve been with a different class in your stead, and will not even notice.

I wish more people understood this!

[El-Hefe]

Well I'm just gonna flat-out disagree! If you believe this then I think you'll be very surprised at the number of Warriors you see running around on launch!

I don't think I will, because there will actually be warriors running around due to the 40% hybrid penalty.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

What people forget is that the XP penalty is really FOR THE GROUP and not exclusively the hybrid/int caster/race. That means if hybrids are rolling with a group of buddies and grinding out together for the most of their play time - they will stay the same level as you.

The XP penalties can feel very overwhelming when speculating on pen and paper or when actually soloing (ironically the hybrids, excluding bards, do not have incredible solo capabilities early on). During a group, there is a slight delay to achieving a full level (when grouping with same leveled individuals), but admittedly not a single group mate will be able to tell you how much quicker it would’ve been with a different class in your stead, and will not even notice.

The perception of the slowness (and grass-greener with a different class mindset) will be the only thing they notice if anything.

It's been stated here several times! An increase of about an hour per-level with just a single Hybrid in the group! Again - what about a hell-level Hybrid Class?

I don't think I will, because there will actually be warriors running around due to the 40% hybrid penalty.

I'm saying that regardless of the penalty you would see plenty of Warriors runnin' round. Will the Hybrid penalty increase the popularity of Warriors, though? Sure.

[zaneosak]

What people forget is that the XP penalty is really FOR THE GROUP and not exclusively the hybrid/int caster/race. That means if hybrids are rolling with a group of buddies and grinding out together for the most of their play time - they will stay the same level as you.

The XP penalties can feel very overwhelming when speculating on pen and paper or when actually soloing (ironically the hybrids, excluding bards, do not have incredible solo capabilities early on). During a group, there is a slight delay to achieving a full level (when grouping with same leveled individuals), but admittedly not a single group mate will be able to tell you how much quicker it would’ve been with a different class in your stead, and will not even notice.

The perception of the slowness (and grass-greener with a different class mindset) will be the only thing they notice if anything.

This is 100% correct . The only time your XP bar actually moves slower is when grouping with people of a different level than you. If you and an SK buddy duo an entire level start to finish, you will ding the exact same moment.

[Verityn]

Good thing this tool was created to combat that and show people who are worried about it that the actual real-game examples as it plays out usually amount to what is a +/- hour of game time gained or lost in an average case of grouping. Math nerds who like numbers like myself win and so does everybody else who wants to know the real effects of the system. win-win.

You're being very intolerant of my intolerance. Check yo privilege.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

This is 100% correct . The only time your XP bar actually moves slower is when grouping with people of a different level than you. If you and an SK buddy duo an entire level start to finish, you will ding the exact same moment.

Yes! Buy you'd also level FASTER if that SK was a different, non-hybrid Class!

It's an unfortunate situation. I'll certainly be missing out on meeting a lot of great players and cool people, but I simply WILL NOT be inviting any Hybrids to my xp groups. My time is a lot more valuable these days than it was 20 years ago and knowing that I'll be slowing my progress so significantly will detract from my enjoyment of the game.

For the most part Mage pets (especially Earth pets) can group-tank perfectly fine during Classic and Mages will be EVERYWHERE! In fact one can expect no-melee, all-pet-groups to be amongst the fastest/most-efficient levelers on the server!

[Deathrydar]

It's an unfortunate situation. I'll certainly be missing out on meeting a lot of great players and cool people, but I simply WILL NOT be inviting any Hybrids to my xp groups.
!

Yes you will be missing out on alot. Please let me know your character name so I can turn down any group invites if you are in the group.

LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL! Its so important. I have to level. Its all there is. I have to level.

smh

[zaneosak]

It's been stated here several times! An increase of about an hour per-level with just a single Hybrid in the group! Again - what about a hell-level Hybrid Class?


I am assuming you mean the hybrid is in a hell-level with other players in the same hell-level. It's no different than the increased time as a regular group because everybody is trying to get the insane amount of XP needed to complete the hell-level.

If the Hybrid is in the 30 hell level and everybody else is 29 it only makes the Hybrid take forever to level and the others see almost no difference (a few mobs)

It's obviously still DIFFERENT if the Hybrid was a regular class and all 6 were 0% penalty, we're talking like a 10% difference in mobs required to ding. But still, if you're lvl 30 you need a RIDICULOUS amount of mobs to ding in a full group of non hybrids even (approx 380 mobs that are level 28). If you change the WAR tank out for an SK it goes up to 411 mobs, that's like an hour at CE. Same concept as before. Not game breaking at all.

[zaneosak]

Yes! Buy you'd also level FASTER if that SK was a different, non-hybrid Class!

It's an unfortunate situation. I'll certainly be missing out on meeting a lot of great players and cool people, but I simply WILL NOT be inviting any Hybrids to my xp groups. My time is a lot more valuable these days than it was 20 years ago and knowing that I'll be slowing my progress so significantly will detract from my enjoyment of the game.


I'm sure you're a blast at parties. Have fun on green, man.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

I am assuming you mean the hybrid is in a hell-level with other players in the same hell-level. It's no different than the increased time as a regular group because everybody is trying to get the insane amount of XP needed to complete the hell-level.

If the Hybrid is in the 30 hell level and everybody else is 29 it only makes the Hybrid take forever to level and the others see almost no difference (a few mobs)

It's obviously still DIFFERENT if the Hybrid was a regular class and all 6 were 0% penalty, we're talking like a 10% difference in mobs required to ding. But still, if you're lvl 30 you need a RIDICULOUS amount of mobs to ding in a full group of non hybrids even (approx 380 mobs that are level 28). If you change the WAR tank out for an SK it goes up to 411 mobs, that's like an hour at CE. Same concept as before. Not game breaking at all.

Again, an increase of an hour PER LEVEL is quite significant to me personally.



LEVEL LEVEL LEVEL! Its so important. I have to level. Its all there is. I have to level.


Actually it's quite the opposite for me! I was eagerly awaiting the announcement of some kinda "Green99" server for about 6 full years! I plan on playing a Class i have little-to-no history playing! (I WISH THAT CLASS COULD BE A PALADIN!) I also plan on doing quite a bit of exploring on Green99 and really digging into the zones I've always neglected in the past.

However, on the nights that I really DO wanna just sit down and grind out some levels for 5 hours straight, I wanna do so with the knowledge that I've made the most out of my time - not with the knowledge that I've essentially thrown around several HOURS of my time. Perhaps that group-xp-penalty could be the difference between making an important spell-level etc etc.

[Deathrydar]

I'm sure you're a blast at parties. Have fun on green, man.

Some people just have strange priorities in a game created for groups and commadere.

/shrug

[Danth]

It's an unfortunate situation. I'll certainly be missing out on meeting a lot of great players and cool people, but I simply WILL NOT be inviting any Hybrids to my xp groups. My time is a lot more valuable these days than it was 20 years ago and knowing that I'll be slowing my progress so significantly will detract from my enjoyment of the game.

Enjoy inviting that level 33 Warrior over the 30 Paladin. The Warrior in that case would slow your progress as much or more than the 30 Paladin would (and more still if some stuff you pull /cons green to the higher-level guy). Granted everyone reading this thread knows pesky things like reality won't stop situations like that from happening anyway. Perception > reality.

Oh, and better either lead every group you're in or be prepared to leave any group at a moment's notice because it's a fair bet you'll be grouping with folks who aren't as picky.

Danth

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Some people just have strange priorities in a game created for groups and commadere.

/shrug

I'll almost certainly be playing a group-REQUIRED Class. I'm all about the group-game aspect of EverQuest! Indeed it's what I think is missing the most from modern-design MMOs.

But we need to face reality! We're living in the min/max era of gaming and MANY players on G99, especially when the server first opens, are going to move into the server with this min/max mindset.

Enjoy inviting that level 33 Warrior over the 30 Paladin. The Warrior in that case would slow your progress as much or more than the 30 Paladin would (and more still if some stuff you pull /cons green to the higher-level guy). Granted everyone reading this thread knows pesky things like reality won't stop situations like that from happening anyway. Perception > reality.

Oh, and better either lead every group you're in or be prepared to leave any group at a moment's notice because it's a fair bet you'll be grouping with folks who aren't as picky.

Danth

Why did you bring a three-level-disparity in to the discussion? Fact is that many groups wont even need an melee-tanking class. Mage Pets are more than sufficient for tanking Classic-era content and mages are like to be the second or third most populist class on the server.

[zaneosak]

To not include anybody with an XP penalty would require you to not invite a single Troll or Ogre of any class, any SK, any paladin, any Ranger, any Bard, and if 20% penalty is too much for you -- no monks either. That seems very hard to do. I would think you'd be better off finding your players now that think alike and building the "perfect xp group" with at least a warrior, rogue, multiple halflings, and as little casters as you can get away with. I'm not sure how many kills per hour you'll get but those kills will be juicy XP chunks :)

[Deathrydar]

But we need to face reality! We're living in the min/max era of gaming and MANY players on G99, especially when the server first opens, are going to move into the server with this min/max mindset.

I don't live in that world!

[zaneosak]

I'll almost certainly be playing a group-REQUIRED Class. I'm all about the group-game aspect of EverQuest! Indeed it's what I think is missing the most from modern-design MMOs.

But we need to face reality! We're living in the min/max era of gaming and MANY players on G99, especially when the server first opens, are going to move into the server with this min/max mindset.

It's hard to min-max others. If you're playing a group-oriented class, you will need to have the group pre-made if you want to min-max, so everybody is on the same page. Min-maxing as a solo player is alot easier because you have complete and all control.

[zaneosak]

I'll almost certainly be playing a group-REQUIRED Class. I'm all about the group-game aspect of EverQuest! Indeed it's what I think is missing the most from modern-design MMOs.

But we need to face reality! We're living in the min/max era of gaming and MANY players on G99, especially when the server first opens, are going to move into the server with this min/max mindset.



Why did you bring a three-level-disparity in to the discussion? Fact is that many groups wont even need an melee-tanking class. Mage Pets are more than sufficient for tanking Classic-era content and mages are like to be the second or third most populist class on the server.

He brought it up because level disparity is more at *most* level increments than the race penalty is. So not only do you have to make sure you nit pick the hybrids you dont play with you also need to make sure you are only grouping with players your level.... or if you want to go next-level min-maxing just build the group yourself every time and make sure you're 4 levels higher than the other 5 and you can really juice all the XP for yourself. If you really wanna min-max you may as well do it at the expense of your counterparts especially if you're already going to purposely ignore certain players because of their class choice. Go big or go home!

[Vizax_Xaziv]

So not only do you have to make sure you nit pick the hybrids you dont play with you also need to make sure you are only grouping with players your level

That will be relatively easy on a fresh server launch when you're gonna have several "tiers" of players all maintaining the same level-spread.

It's hard to min-max others. If you're playing a group-oriented class

Absolutely! I plan of making my own groups 90% of the time. Not only does it allow me to pick and choose what classes/levels etc I want in the group it's also almost ALWAYS faster than just sitting around LFG.

[zaneosak]

That will be relatively easy on a fresh server launch when you're gonna have several "tiers" of players all maintaining the same level-spread.



Absolutely! I plan of making my own groups 90% of the time. Not only does it allow me to pick and choose what classes/levels etc I want in the group it's also almost ALWAYS faster than just sitting around LFG.

Just don't forget to give the disclaimer about how penalizing it is to group with people higher than you when you invite those lower players. I am sure you want them to be given the knowledge you have since you love the grouping and socialization aspect of classic Everquest. :)

[Danth]

Why did you bring a three-level-disparity in to the discussion?

Because your posts indicate you have an incomplete understanding of how experience is divided in the original game. Otherwise you wouldn't be harping about hybrids, you'd be harping about people who are higher-level than you. Heck, hybrids aren't even the only classes with experience penalties. That Magician standing there? He has a penalty.

Not telling you what to do. You want to try to min-max your group structure for your own benefit? Have at it. However, if you're going to do something, do it right and read up on how the mechanics work.

Danth

[Donkey Hotay]

The topic of this conversation won't directly affect me because I usually duo--primarily because the Vizax Xaziv personality type tends to accumulate the higher level you get. However, as a devil's advocate, an extra hour per level per hybrid is not insignificant.

[Danth]

However, as a devil's advocate, an extra hour per level per hybrid is not insignificant.

It's also wrong until, perhaps, very high levels. If we assume equal levels for a moment (remember level affects experience breakdown too, and quite often more), then in a typical group with a Monk pulling, maybe a Rogue, and a couple of INT casters (figure an Ench and something like a Necromancer or Magician) with a Cleric healing, the Paladin will be slowing that group's by roughly six per cent versus the same group having a typical Warrior tank of the same level instead. In return for that six percent the hybrid tank gives the group much superior aggro control and whatever other advantages he may bring. In order for that ~6 per cent to be an extra hour, you're looking at leveling times in excess of 15 hours/level. You can get there during some of the 50's slow levels (hello level 54!), but even then that extra hour is not proportionally a lot.

Penalties hurt more the fewer people you have, and the power-levelers are going to want to stay out of full groups as much as they can. If a Paladin wants to duo with a Barbarian Shaman, they have an average 125% level rate. If the Barbarian Shaman partners with a Barbarian Warrior instead, their joint level rate is about 104%, or saving them roughly a bubble of experience per level. That's a fair difference! This again assumes everyone involved is of equal level/experience, which in practice is not always (indeed, not usually) the case.

Danth

[Donkey Hotay]

. . . if you're lvl 30 you need a RIDICULOUS amount of mobs to ding in a full group of non hybrids even (approx 380 mobs that are level 28). If you change the WAR tank out for an SK it goes up to 411 mobs, that's like an hour at CE.

I was assuming this breakdown was true, which has the group needing 8% more kills (31) and guesses that to be an hour at CE, which sounded reasonable to me in bronze with a PGT or what-have-you. Perhaps the example was limited to specifically hell levels though, where I admit to confusion (the Mechanics page denotes 30 as a double hell level but lists the same modifier as 31-34).

[Vizax_Xaziv]

The Hybrid players CHOOSE to play their class. Don't get snooty w me about min/maxing

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Me boRn a troll Sk
Me no chose
Bigot

[deadlycupcakez]

Yes! Buy you'd also level FASTER if that SK was a different, non-hybrid Class!

It's an unfortunate situation. I'll certainly be missing out on meeting a lot of great players and cool people, but I simply WILL NOT be inviting any Hybrids to my xp groups. My time is a lot more valuable these days than it was 20 years ago and knowing that I'll be slowing my progress so significantly will detract from my enjoyment of the game.

For the most part Mage pets (especially Earth pets) can group-tank perfectly fine during Classic and Mages will be EVERYWHERE! In fact one can expect no-melee, all-pet-groups to be amongst the fastest/most-efficient levelers on the server!

I dont buy it - unfortunately sounds like rhetoric from a tr00 n00b. Are you applying the sciences of speed of kill with an SK vs the speed of kill with a warrior? How much slower is every mob?

If 30 mobs is an hour, the simple math makes it 2min per mob kill. I am not sure I believe that, maybe closer to 1 minute a mob, BUT how many more seconds of combat will it take to kill the mob with the DPS of a warrior vs an SK? How much more downtime is spent medding up after healing the ench/sham/wiz/rog who pulled aggro from the Warrior too soon rather than the pally blind/stun.

I just dont buy this player's trolling as the facts trying to be presented.

[zaneosak]

I was assuming this breakdown was true, which has the group needing 8% more kills (31) and guesses that to be an hour at CE, which sounded reasonable to me in bronze with a PGT or what-have-you. Perhaps the example was limited to specifically hell levels though, where I admit to confusion (the Mechanics page denotes 30 as a double hell level but lists the same modifier as 31-34).

I was confused by this chart as well. Once the hell modifier increases (1.0 to 1.1 in the case of lvl 29 to 30) thats the double hell, but after the modifier stays with the 1.1 continually that is the "new normal" if you will.... until it then jumps up to 1.2 for 35 where it repeats the cycle until the 50s, where every level becomes harder by the same degree but now its a different degree..... and then you see 51 the 54 and 59 modifiers jump in a different rate than the "normal" which constitutes double hell again. It's confusing for sure.

[Donkey Hotay]

. . . the modifier stays with the 1.1 continually [30-34] that is the "new normal" if you will.

That was my thinking as well. Mostly I was concerned with ruling out hell levels as being the only time a potential extra hour was at stake.

If 30 mobs is an hour, the simple math makes it 2min per mob kill. I am not sure I believe that, maybe closer to 1 minute a mob . . .

It does seem long; I sense this is the primary variable in play. 45ish per hour might be more correct in which case we're back to the extra 30-40 minutes speculated early on in this thread. That's not so bad and probably is countered effectively by improved aggro and DPS, especially where CC is used on pulls.

So assuming some reasonable approximations of fact, one could safely invite an even or lower leveled hybrid. But should one ever invite two? I would have to say no although I might well take one in addition to a warrior.

[hillgiantchamp]

Is there bonus exp for having a full 6 person group? I feel like that was a thing but I never see it mentioned.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Is there bonus exp for having a full 6 person group? I feel like that was a thing but I never see it mentioned.

Absolutely SHOULD be a full-group bonus. But, knowing the devs here, they'll neglect to implement it! (because it makes the game "easier")

[El-Hefe]

Absolutely SHOULD be a full-group bonus. But, knowing the devs here, they'll neglect to implement it! (because it makes the game "easier")

When has that ever been their reasoning?

[turbosilk]

bottom line #2 -- stay within a level of your group mates and you wont feel the effects as badly and neither will they.


https://i.imgur.com/j8ig3oB.jpg

Sure this shows that if you add a troll SK that everyone needs the same # of mobs to level in the group if they are all the same level. What I haven't seen discussed yet is that adding that troll SK causes the entire group to need to kill more mobs to level. And the penalty of the increased #s of mobs needed ramps up significantly if you add other classes that also have exp/class penalties. It'll take nearly twice as many mobs to level if you had a full group of racial/classes with the penalties.

[Verityn]

I think the biggest factor overall in determining group exp rates is the number of available mobs.

[BlackBellamy]

I think the biggest factor overall in determining group exp rates is the number of available mobs.

No no, it's timing. That guy, the hybrid racist, I think he's onto something. You log on, you stretch, look around, check the inventory. You go for a nice walk, a zone or two, check out a merchant, see if something is up, visit a camp, work on a trade skill, it's a nice day. But then it's business time! So you announce a group forming, and all these people come streaming in to your wide open camp and you're like a machine, it's pure non-hybrid teamwork, the mobs are falling over in shock, you're measuring your exp gain in parsecs, you feel something wonderful is happening.

You gotta relax hard and grind hard, amirite?

[Rooj]

Same thing I posted in another thread, the amount of players who care about EXP penalties is minimal. Most people just want to play with people who pay attention and are good at the game. It's pretty baffling how many people aren't good at games, even old and simple games like Everquest.

Everyone loves enchanters, right? I've seen plenty of Enchanters not get invited to groups because they are consistently not refreshing buffs or being too slow on mezzes. I've seen people not be invited because they are an "asshat," or because they're a crappy healer or inefficient player. Very rarely have I ever seen someone not invited because their class has an EXP penalty. A large majority of players do not care.

Anyway, I'm not sure I'd waste my time fighting the staff with the EXP penalty. I'm about 100% sure it will not be removed until it is supposed to be removed in the timeline (which I'm pretty sure is during Velious). For 10 years now the staff has intentionally changed things to be more classic-like regardless of whether those changes were viewed negatively or positively. I'm sure even the staff believes EXP penalties were dumb (even Live staff said they regretted them), but they existed on Blue until the patch in Velious that removes them.

Honestly the best thing to do is to stop acting like the EXP penalty is something that really has any bearing on anyone's gameplay, or that a significant amount of players even care about it to begin with.

[zaneosak]

Is there bonus exp for having a full 6 person group? I feel like that was a thing but I never see it mentioned.

Yes there is a group bonus. It looks like this:

2 players - 2% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
3 players - 6% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
4 players - 10% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
5 players - 14% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
6 players - 20% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty

It should be noted that it might be 1,3,5,7,10 for P99 Classic I am not sure. The 2-6-10-14-20 values were changed pretty shortly after the release of EQ (<6 months I believe) so I am not sure if that is something the P99 staff would wait until 6 months to change or not but my understanding was the 2-6-10-14-20 limit are at least what it was changed to sometime in mid-1999, I can't recall the reference. could find it later if you're interested.

[Deathrydar]

Honestly the best thing to do is to stop acting like the EXP penalty is something that really has any bearing on anyone's gameplay, or that a significant amount of players even care about it to begin with.

Amen!

[zaneosak]

I think the biggest factor overall in determining group exp rates is the number of available mobs.

This is quite true. I added a number of mobs per hour box in that sheet for my own person calculations and thinking about camps especially in dungeons, you are limited to a finite amount of spawns in your camp and a set spawn time - many times , especially in classic when zones are hyper populated...... you will find alot of camps. Frenized Ghoul for example in LGuk is like what...... 4 mobs in Frenzy room, 5 total down by sentinel , 4 in the camp spot and 2-6 roamers hallway mobs back towards Safehall.

So maybe 20 mobs? In a zone with a massive re-spawn timer of 28 minutes. You're left with like 40-45 mobs an hour max. Most people did not think about this back in the day because your shit gear required you to need that downtime to meditate anyways.

[Trollhide]

So how does pet experience work on green? Mage must do >50% dmg or pet takes 50% xp?

[magusfire24]

So how does pet experience work on green? Mage must do >50% dmg or pet takes 50% xp?

Yes Gotta do 51% damage for full XP

[zaneosak]

Yes there is a group bonus. It looks like this:

2 players - 2% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
3 players - 6% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
4 players - 10% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
5 players - 14% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty
6 players - 20% Bonus to Mobs XP Bounty

It should be noted that it might be 1,3,5,7,10 for P99 Classic I am not sure. The 2-6-10-14-20 values were changed pretty shortly after the release of EQ (<6 months I believe) so I am not sure if that is something the P99 staff would wait until 6 months to change or not but my understanding was the 2-6-10-14-20 limit are at least what it was changed to sometime in mid-1999, I can't recall the reference. could find it later if you're interested.

This was a mistake -- I meant to say it might be "2, 4, 6, 8, 10"% bonus on P99 Classic.**

[Spock2020]

so far I decided to play a shaman first druid second and third a sk ogre but I will level my sk solo if need to be so if u want me go ahead but I could level by myself or duo my way to 50. Seems like we have enough time to level a main and 2 alt before planes open anyway

[uygi]

Yes Gotta do 51% damage for full XP
Or just recall the pet; a pet that isn't alive any more gets no cut of the XP. Malachite is cheap for a reason!


Seriously though, I don't understand how people still make such a big deal over this. It's simple; there are two pieces, experience required to level, and experience share of a given kill. I'm 96% sure my understanding is correct that gaining a given level requires X amount of experience. If you have a penalty(or bonus), all it does is modify X. If I have a 20% penalty, I require 1.2*X amount of experience to gain that same level. If I'm a Troll SK, it's 1.68*X.

How much XP each toon in a group receives is also simple. Each player has a sum total of their XP, call that Ytoon. Take the total XP held by all members of the group, let's call that Yall. Any given toon receives Ytoon/Yall share of the total XP from a kill. That troll SK has 1.68 times more XP than you, all levels being equal, so he gets a bigger cut.

Imagine this group; assume they're all exactly the same level:

Halfling cleric (5% bonus, Ytoon=.95)
Barbarian rogue (4.5% bonus, Ytoon=.955)
Gnome mage (10% penalty, Ytoon=1.1)
Dark Elf enchanter (10% penalty, Ytoon=1.1)
Iksar monk (44% penalty, Ytoon=1.44)
Ogre SK (61% penalty, Ytoon=1.61)

Yall=7.225
The hobbit cleric gets 13.1%
Barb rogue gets 13.2%
The mage and chanter each get 15.2%
The lizard monk gets 19.9%
The fat ogre gets 22.3%

If you switch that ogre SK to, let's say, a dwarf warrior (terrible substitute, but whatever...), the split would become:

The drunk little warrior gets 13.8%
Hobbit cleric gets 14.6%
Barb rogue gets 14.7%
The mage and chanter each get 16.9%
The lizard monk gets 22.1%

Switching that awesome SK for that shitty warrior would net the cleric 11% more XP overall, while the monk gets 9% more. Not insignificant, but not going to break anyone either.

In your average leveling group, the SK is usually going to have much more utility. SK is anywhere from mediocre to arguably the best puller, depending on situation. SKs have way better aggro and have snare. True, Warriors do put out more damage. Paladins are harder to defend, I'll have to leave that for someone else. Rangers and Bards have incredible utility too, and they don't come from penalty races.

Anyways, saying "I'll never invite a penalty class to my group" is probably shooting yourself in the foot if you're willing to sacrifice kill rate or survivability, and you might end up with a bad reputation for yourself. A shitty-to-mediocre warrior is going to be disastrous compared a most SKs. Warriors are totally gear dependent, whereas a poorly geared paladin or SK should have zero trouble holding aggro.

[Rooj]

I think the biggest factor overall in determining group exp rates is the number of available mobs.

Yep. Watching people try to form perfect groups for up to an hour, spend time travelling to the "best" camp, only to kill way too fast and then watch as two or more camped groups in the same area start competing for mobs, drama ensues, etc.

Meanwhile everyone else who generally doesn't care about group comp (as long as roles are fulfilled) or camp location was EXPing all along and passes the other people in levels. Seen it on Blue. Seen it on TLP. Bout to see it again on Green.