Instead of arguing over Ogre FSI, which class is Ogre best at?

[Cen]

Just curious. Now that I can make a fatty and if im lucky get a special DE form shrink option for him (even though all three of those classes have a type of shrink option already), and I know I like all 3 of their classes to some extent, which do you think benefits most from the ridiculous stats and FSI? I know its kind of a backwards question

[Baler]

Warrior
All 25 Bonus Points to Dex

Ogre Warrior is the only warrior race. All else are pointless unless you're RPing. Not even kidding.

inb4 eggheads say oh but baler shaman. just stfu about shaman. Every race a shm can be is good for shm, because torpor.

SK is worth arguing about I guess.

[dekova]

All of them. Ogre should be its own class.

[Keebz]

Gotta be SK. Not only do you benefit from FSI as a tank, you also benefit from it as a spell caster and FD class, which is relevant forever. Though I guess you could argue the tank part is less important, since you're not dependent on melee swings for aggro.

I will say I often wish I had FSI when I play my Troll Shaman. Getting stunned when trying to get off that crucial root or DD is super annoying. (EDIT: Previously erroneously implied that FSI prevented interruption.) I never got Torpor, however, so can't speak for the high end.

As for my non-Ogre warrior, I generally don't mind the stuns, but I know I'm generating like 4% less hate than I would be otherwise. Also in classic, I'd imagine the Ogre stats are pretty relevant. Though come Velious it's pretty whatever since you're stat capped and just malleting everything anyway. They're still the best Warriors, but meh.

[Baler]

Keep in mind that Frontal Stun Immunity does NOT mean frontal interrupt immunity for spell casting.

[gkmarino]

Couldn't self reaper due to being stunned and died... FSI is huge on any class. I'd say it's gonna be best on WAR for raiding and SHD/SHM for grouping and farming cash camps. My reasoning being that you can be ignoring bashes during a SHD FD/Snare splits and during a SHM face tanking before slows go out.

[Halfcell]

Warrior
All 25 Bonus Points to Dex

Ogre Warrior is the only warrior race. All else are pointless unless you're RPing. Not even kidding.

inb4 eggheads say oh but baler shaman. just stfu about shaman. Every race a shm can be is good for shm, because torpor.

SK is worth arguing about I guess.

Pretty much this, top to bottom.

That said, my warrior is a wood elf cus Fashionquest. But he is clearly inferior to an ogre in the same gear.

[Gustoo]

All ogre classes are far far better than non ogre ones.

The stun resist means you can corner cast based on channelling skill alone outside of spell based stuns and such and is a mega huge advantage for the shaman and the SK as much as it is for the warrior.

If the class can be an ogre it should

For normal game play evil races suck its way more fun to be a goody goody than to have tofaction for hours or chill in a swamp.

On live in early days it was all about those barbarian warriors and shamans

[Danth]

Ogre is best for all three equally because the major thing Ogre does is boost the confidence of players who're otherwise a little unsure of themselves. Its advantage is more mental than anything else. There is absolutely no content an Ogre can do that an otherwise equivalent non-Ogre cannot. Player race is undoubtedly the most overthought thing within this community. Pick what looks the best.

Danth

[Sonark]

Ogre is best for all three equally because the major thing Ogre does is boost the confidence of players who're otherwise a little unsure of themselves. Its advantage is more mental than anything else. There is absolutely no content an Ogre can do that an otherwise equivalent non-Ogre cannot. Player race is undoubtedly the most overthought thing within this community. Pick what looks the best.

DanthNo.

NO.

Fractions of a percent are IMPORTANT

[Sonderbeast]

The_Ogre has been quarantined due to undue racism and supremacist views.

[DRAGONBAIT]

ok so, how come everyone is puttin FSI ahead troll regen for a shaman? plz develop, is there something high-end i am missing?

i mean, i am a troll shaman and i cant recall dieing cos of being stuned, maybe theres a borderline moment but if u do things properly it shouldnt happen so HP regen as a shaman isnt much more valuable?

[zodias]

FSI is perceived as better because you can't get it on any other class or race combo.

Regen is amazing but there's equipment and spells that give anyone regen.

I would argue that the innorokk disciple amulet is more valuable to a troll shaman than racial regen. It Grant's a spell that shamans can't normally get, and it's a pretty useful spell for them to be able to access.

[Sonark]

No.

NO.

Fractions of a percent are IMPORTANT*situational uses of fractions of a percent SUPERCEDE ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING

Your children's smile? Not quite as bright as that other kid's.

Setting a new PB at the gym? That one guy over did 5 lbs more, what a piece of shit you are.

Taking breaths in a shallow, quick way as opposed to deeply every few seconds? Get the fuck off this planet, idiot.

[DRAGONBAIT]

FSI is perceived as better because you can't get it on any other class or race combo.

Regen is amazing but there's equipment and spells that give anyone regen.

I would argue that the innorokk disciple amulet is more valuable to a troll shaman than racial regen. It Grant's a spell that shamans can't normally get, and it's a pretty useful spell for them to be able to access.



well, still thinking than having as much HP regen as u can just makes ur downtime shorter and u can be killing faster, even attempt some fights where u are close since u can cani + sit and regen. for me is def a no brainer speak about FSI over natural HP regen.

[zodium]

Ogre is best for all three equally because the major thing Ogre does is boost the confidence of players who're otherwise a little unsure of themselves. Its advantage is more mental than anything else. There is absolutely no content an Ogre can do that an otherwise equivalent non-Ogre cannot. Player race is undoubtedly the most overthought thing within this community. Pick what looks the best.

Danth

this but for gear instead of race

[DMN]

It depends a bit on the time frame you are looking at and whether or not you are considering purely solo or group potential. Are they of equal importance or not? Like I think trolls were comprehensively better than ogres in the vanilla era if you cared significantly about soloing. Even grouping in the case of the shaman, too.

[Jimjam]

I was going to say berserker but after some thought i think it is actually beastlord.

[Chryorn]

The SK will solo much better than the Warrior and the SK is the superior group tank by a large margin, at least during Classic and Kunark. Unless your long term goal is being a main raid tank the decision really boils down to SK vs Shaman.

Edit: Of course there is the hybrid XP penalty. But as a Cleric I know that a hybrid tank - including Ranger, at least pre Velious - will make it easier for me to keep everybody alive.

[Soothsayer]

The SK will solo much better than the Warrior and the SK is the superior group tank by a large margin, at least during Classic and Kunark. Unless your long term goal is being a main raid tank the decision really boils down to SK vs Shaman.

Edit: Of course there is the hybrid XP penalty. But as a Cleric I know that a hybrid tank - including Ranger, at least pre Velious - will make it easier for me to keep everybody alive.

As long as people allow the warrior a few swings to establish aggro or root the mob to solve aggro problems, you shouldn't really have any trouble keeping people alive with a warrior as your tank in group settings. And whether you like it or not, you'll probably see us more often than you see SKs. :D

[Dolalin]

Troll regen is a whopping 2 and 3 per tick extra until 49. Is that *really* worth a 25% racial xp penalty?

[Gustoo]

Yes exp penalities are not even a factor in this discussion.

Ogre stun means you can tank things like lodizel and live a lot better than without it.

Frankly I'd rather this topic not be settled.

In classic era there is an argument for the troll just because less of these hyper mobs are around and all the meta stuff is kinda level 60 epic stuff. also less Regen items in classic era so troll may be justified for some people in classic. Deep maybe

[DMN]

Troll regen is a whopping 2 and 3 per tick extra until 49. Is that *really* worth a 25% racial xp penalty?

The exp penalty isn't just regen. It's slam, high stats, and infravision as well.

I don't have the exact numbers offhand but it's something like twice the regen rate. That means you will be able to fight twice as often as melee and in the case of shaman's ~50% converted to mana.

[Vexenu]

Regen is incredibly overrated from 1-50. It absolutely does NOT offset the XP penalty. Not even close. A level 49 Troll regens 6 hp sitting and 2 standing. A level 49 Human regens 3 hp sitting and 1 standing. So in exchange for regenning a whopping additional 30 hp per minute while sitting, the Troll eats a 20% XP penalty. If you're mostly standing (i.e. grouping with a healer) the regen is even more pathetic, literally an extra 10 hp per minute. Absolutely inconsequential and unnoticeable.

That being said, regen really takes off in the upper 50s and becomes noticeable. But even then it's really more of a benefit for Necros, Monks and Shaman than SKs or Warriors. A Troll SK who mostly duoed with a Shaman would be the strongest tank beneficiary of regen. A Warrior who is mostly being CHed doesn't benefit nearly as much.

[DMN]

Regen is incredibly overrated from 1-50. It absolutely does NOT offset the XP penalty. Not even close. A level 49 Troll regens 6 hp sitting and 2 standing. A level 49 Human regens 3 hp sitting and 1 standing. So in exchange for regenning a whopping additional 30 hp per minute while sitting, the Troll eats a 20% XP penalty. If you're mostly standing (i.e. grouping with a healer) the regen is even more pathetic, literally an extra 10 hp per minute. Absolutely inconsequential and unnoticeable.

That being said, regen really takes off in the upper 50s and becomes noticeable. But even then it's really more of a benefit for Necros, Monks and Shaman than SKs or Warriors. A Troll SK who mostly duoed with a Shaman would be the strongest tank beneficiary of regen. A Warrior who is mostly being CHed doesn't benefit nearly as much.

Once AGAIN the exp penalty to trolls isn't just regen; they shit all over humans on raw stats and racial slam.

[aaezil]

Ogre is irrelevant for warrior

Gear makes up for lower stats

Kick lvl 55+ stuns anyway

Play what looks best

[Baler]

Ogre is irrelevant for warrior

Gear makes up for lower stats

Kick lvl 55+ stuns anyway

Play what looks best

That's simply not true and you know it. The difference between a tank that's stunned and a tank that's not stunned is 1-2 plus more procs to keep agro on them and off everyone else. And even if you don't consider procs, there is still melee dps agro being done by a non stunned tank.

[Vexenu]

Once AGAIN the exp penalty to trolls isn't just regen; they shit all over humans on raw stats and racial slam.

No argument, Trolls are way better statistically. But do they kill 20% faster, enough to offset the XP penalty? If you sit down and do the math I think you will quickly see it's very clear they do not.

[aaezil]

That's simply not true and you know it. The difference between a tank that's stunned and a tank that's not stunned is 1-2 plus more procs to keep agro on them and off everyone else. And even if you don't consider procs, there is still melee dps agro being done by a non stunned tank.

Being stunned for 1 second has never made me lose aggro - sounds like you’re blowing it out of proportion

[Danth]

Ogre stun means you can tank things like lodizel and live a lot better than without it.

We're getting into actual fantasy now. This kind of proves my point about Ogres providing a confidence boost for some folks. If it makes you feel that way--good, it's doing its job. In a game that's mostly mental in the first place, that's as fair a reason as any (and better than most) to pick a race if it makes a person feel that way.

Baler: Log parsing has shown the average threat per minute difference between Ogre and non-Ogre Warrior is on the order of a couple per cent. It's not even particularly relevant WITHOUT the widespread use of mallets/etc.

Not going to claim Ogre is bad. It isn't; it's quite often the min-max choice. I only claim its advantage isn't so pronounced as some folks believe, and at any rate min/maxing is largely unnecessary in a game so loosely-tuned as this one.

Danth

[DMN]

No argument, Trolls are way better statistically. But do they kill 20% faster, enough to offset the XP penalty? If you sit down and do the math I think you will quickly see it's very clear they do not.

If you are soloing, yes, they easily offset their penalty.

[Baler]

Being stunned for 1 second has never made me lose aggro - sounds like you’re blowing it out of proportion

something something...
Wood Elf is the best warrior race because it has the highest AGI :cool:

[dekova]

ok so, how come everyone is puttin FSI ahead troll regen for a shaman? plz develop, is there something high-end i am missing?

i mean, i am a troll shaman and i cant recall dieing cos of being stuned, maybe theres a borderline moment but if u do things properly it shouldnt happen so HP regen as a shaman isnt much more valuable?

DragonBait did a great job of derailing this thread.

I'll say that Ogre is best as a shadowknight. Fits the race thematically and makes the best use of the FSI as a tanking caster.

[Danth]

Potentially relevant, from today's patch:

Haynar: Bash can now interrupt spells, even if the stun component does not land (Credit work by Torven/Mackal).

I'm not sure how it applies to Ogres, but I hope this works both ways and I can bash those annoying giant complete healers.

Danth

[Vexenu]

If you are soloing, yes, they easily offset their penalty.

Troll regen provides +1800 HP per hour from levels 20-49. That's if you're sitting the whole time. Realistically in practice it would be more like +1200 per hour at best since you spend a lot of time fighting and running around while solo.

Do you really think an extra +1200hp per hour makes you kill 20% faster? How many more mobs can you kill with an extra 20 hit points per minute? Especially considering that every other race can also bind wound to 50% health after each kill at the same speed you can? If you think about it, it becomes obvious that stacking +HP gear is way more advantageous for a soloing Warrior than the piddly Troll regen advantage, since that lets you bind wound much higher and zerk more safely.

[Palemoon]

About troll regen: its power and impact are felt more at the very low levels. When weak mobs are beating you down, that regen keeps you in the fight when other races are knocked down and killed.

Any baby troll knows how hard they are to kill, and the epic long fights vs. noob mobs that would leave the ogres, etc dead back at bind point.

The lower your hps, and the weaker mobs hit, the more power that regen is.

[Cen]

DragonBait did a great job of derailing this thread.

I'll say that Ogre is best as a shadowknight. Fits the race thematically and makes the best use of the FSI as a tanking caster.

I always found Ogre SK's thematically unsuited.. and DE's and more prissy highborn evil knights to fit the bill. Why do you think Ogres fit theme? Also its weird RZ can be SK with Ogre since RZ is the evil god of war who despises undead.

[sacman08]

Leaving out FSI, Ogres are best at being warriors, they have the best starting stats for the class, and can do surprisingly well in pre-planar gear. Starting a SK or Shaman isn't bad either but they are the second worst on WIS and INT starting out, and those are two of the hardest stats to aquire gear to raise.
As for FSI, I really think too much emphasis is put on the ability. I played a DE SK and Barb Warrior on live and never once thought, dang, I wish I had an ogre for FSI!

[DMN]

Troll regen provides +1800 HP per hour from levels 20-49. That's if you're sitting the whole time. Realistically in practice it would be more like +1200 per hour at best since you spend a lot of time fighting and running around while solo.



Look at a warrior once. simple, straight forward, maybe a little masochistic. it's going to have it's downtime between kills reduced by half. Ask any warrior who solo'd any significant period throughout vanilla just how much time you will spend on your ass? Waaay more than 50%.

And again the 20% isn't just regen. A more appropriate question in this thread would be: do trolls kill 5% faster than ogres? I think they unquestionably do for the majority of "vanilla 50". Then it's going to depend on class. And there is the reality we all know, they will eventually hit 50 and that exp penalty is virtually irrelevant. there is a whole freaking year before the level cap is going to be lifted.

[Noselacri]

It takes a pretty long time before the realistically available gear can raise your stats to the point where ogres don't have a huge advantage over other tank races. Especially when you consider that even once those stats are technically cappable for, say, a human, an ogre could just gear into a different stat and maintain that aggregate bonus. It's really not until Velious endgame that you just have so many stats on your gear that the racial naturals no longer matter. It's possible for other races to max a stat before then, but that requires gearing specifically for this at the cost of other stats.

Ogres have like fully 50% higher melee stats throughout most of Everquest. For vanilla in particular, the kind of gear you'd have to wear to cap your stamina on a non-large race is pretty awful, you certainly won't do it in planar or whatever you might otherwise wish to be wearing. Dwarf is the only decent non-large race for melee, and they're still -40 strength, -32 strength, +20 dexterity compared to ogres. Agility is not a very useful stat so the agile races don't make up for it in any real way, nor is their agility advantage anywhere near as big as the strength and stamina advantage of ogres.

So an ogre warrior can start with 140 strength, 132 stamina, 95 dexterity. That's a seriously excellent baseline. A dwarf could start with 100/100/115 which sounds a lot less exciting, and you'd need about +100 str and stam from gear in order to cap out with buffs. That's not happening in vanilla. Probably not happening in Kunark, either. The ogre might end up with capped str/stam and higher dex than the dwarf thanks to the freedom to gear for dex. Even when you disregard FSI, the race is just objectively superior until Velious raiding. While capping strength isn't intensely important for tanks, it's still nice.

Shadowknight is the quintessential ogre class. They benefit fully from the stats and from the FSI. Warriors don't get that much out of FSI, it's not like it reduces your "DPS uptime" by a significant amount. For shamans it's heavily contingent on whether or not you intend to be a trophy soloer; if your MO is root-rotting, FSI does very little for you. In groups, while it can help when you take aggro, it's not a constant advantage either. You'll probably spend 90% of your time doing things where FSI is irrelevant, so while I'd personally still go ogre shaman, it's not such a big deal. The strength and stamina aren't nearly as interesting for a shaman, in part because any race you pick (except iksar) will have it.

[Albane]

Keep in mind that Frontal Stun Immunity does NOT mean frontal interrupt immunity for spell casting.

Unless you back yourself into a corner. Then you cannot be moved or stunned and you will not be interrupted anymore.

[Gustoo]

Yep then it is pure channeling AKA the best.

Fact is that even on servers where it mattered (red 99) non ogre SK's did great.

I think the only mob and class race combo that you really NEED to be an ogre is a shaman wanting to solo lodizel.

Otherwise choose your favorite race and be a good player and you will be OK.

[Chryorn]

As long as people allow the warrior a few swings to establish aggro or root the mob to solve aggro problems, you shouldn't really have any trouble keeping people alive with a warrior as your tank in group settings. And whether you like it or not, you'll probably see us more often than you see SKs. :D
I like it. In the end a tank is a tank and sooner or later the guys who commit suicide by constantly managing to pull agro will learn or fade away. The lack of gear and what it really means will be a steep learning curve for some people.

Troll regen has a comparatively big impact when soloing at lower levels. Hardly anybody will be willing or able to buy bandages. But I doubt that tanks will be forced to solo on Green.

[Cen]

I think ive decided that SK is the ogres best class. I now realize it fully utalizes all of their abilities. The FSI for a casting tank, plus Slam isnt wasted as much as it is with Warrior (stun kick alternative) and shaman (stuck at 0 bash modifier). SK uses ogre racials 100% and all the SK abilities like hide and UV spells arent wasted since ogre doesn't get. Nice!

[uygi]

I think ive decided that SK is the ogres best class. I now realize it fully utalizes all of their abilities. The FSI for a casting tank, plus Slam isnt wasted as much as it is with Warrior (stun kick alternative) and shaman (stuck at 0 bash modifier). SK uses ogre racials 100% and all the SK abilities like hide and UV spells arent wasted since ogre doesn't get. Nice!

So... you're not wrong. Ogre perks are probably realized most fully with SK. But in raid terms, an ogre warrior is significantly better than any other warrior. In raid terms, an ogre SK is more or less just another SK... unless that SK is a raid tank (which, to be fair, pre-Kunark they often are). Like, certainly in Kunark and Velious, the critical ogre role is warrior. Could also easily argue that the best solo ogre, making best use of ogre benefits, is Shaman. SKs cast the same quick, very low levels spells 97% of the time in combat.

[Trollhide]

FSI is the most overhyped ability in the game, and you're missing out on the true min/max stat: the innate raw sexual charisma of trolls.

Fight me.

[Madbad]

Just tested.

While I have an ogre's physique, I do not have frontal stun immunity.

[bum3]

Get a friend create a ogre lvl 1 warrior and a troll level 1 warrior.. duel over and over... ogre wins 65% of the time. I know from experience dueling a 12 year old who wouldn't submit to my ogre superiority. This proves nothing. But it's fun.