Classic Tanks

[Keebz]

I've decided I want to keep tanking in classic and am trying to figure out what roll. I'd imagine their are dozens of us looking to tank, so I wanted to open discussion on the viability and play style of the various tanks pre-Kunark (we know post Kunark it's all WAR all the time).

What class race combos are strongest? Viable?

Group Content?
Are Rangers viable group tanks 1-50? It seems like their skill caps are more or less on par.
Are SKs still the best? How does PAL compare? I'd imagine stun is great for all the caster mobs.
How much does race factor into things? Can an ERU or HIE PAL really group tank?
How miserable is it to group tank as a WAR?

Duos?
Are SKs, WARs and RNGs still viable duo-ists in classic?

Raids?
Without disciplines, can other classes raid tank? What will knights do in the Planes?

I'm personally thinking about a RNG, but not sure if I'd actually be allowed to tank anything and am better off sucking it up with a knight class or god forbid a WAR. I play a WAR on blue and kinda want to try something different, preferably with some QoL abilities given how rough Green will be at first.

[Maker_Mayhem]

Group Content?
Are Rangers viable group tanks 1-50? It seems like their skill caps are more or less on par.

When blue launched rangers were paper tanks. This was due to the AC mechanics. Some still claim it's broken, while others say it is fixed and much better. If it is indeed fixed then a ranger will do nearly just as well as any other class in the BiS armor(i.e. rubicite pre planar). The only exception I can think of is the 10 extra defense skill cap warriors have over rangers 200, and the 200 riposte vs a rangers 150ish.. and a negligible amount of dodge difference iirc. I cant remember the numbers off the top of my head.

Are SKs still the best? How does PAL compare? I'd imagine stun is great for all the caster mobs.

Stun is great for casters, but, if you are an SK you have the benefit of Ogre Slam. Plus, FSI is huge for a SK. No interrupts when casting is amazing. That coupled with the fact you can Slam while wielding 2h means bigger damage without sacrificing interrupts

How much does race factor into things? Can an ERU or HIE PAL really group tank?

Any race can group tank however you will notice more of the struggle in classic with extremely low sta/str as a HIE/Eru (Agi). It is definitely doable, but I look at those racial choices personally as a long term investment. You have to be willing to be underrated in classic, less HP, less damage, less racial based effectiveness (which can be mitigated by player skill. A dwarf paladin who doesn't know how to root n scoot while chain stunning interrupts on a healing mob, etc. etc. isn't worth his weight in ale. If you are a HIE pally and peak performing, you will shine.

How miserable is it to group tank as a WAR?

1-20 mobs are relatively weak. You will basically be a backstabless rogue. You will be more or less dead weight with the inability to generate aggro based off of weapon procs. However, if you can grab an early aggro weapon you might fair better. But let's be honest. On the way to 50, you won't have the armor nor the aggro capabilities to effectively keep mobs interested in you as a warrior, especially when Mr. Mage is AoEing blades on mobs and Mr. Wizard is raining down nukes....they will be hard to content with for aggro generation without a slow, snare, dot or stun component in your repertoire.

Duos?
Are SKs, WARs and RNGs still viable duo-ists in classic?

Warriors are not viable duo-ists in classic, fresh launch. SKs and Rangers? Absolutely. They play very similar. One is masterful indoors (sks) while the other is unbeatable outdoors (Ranger). This is largely because of feign death splitting vs harmony splitting. Both provide snares, the ability to regenerate HP via lifetaps or heals as well as snap aggro -- disease cloud (SK) flame lick (RNG). I lean towards ranger and am about 90% committed to maining him during Classic.

Raids?
Without disciplines, can other classes raid tank? What will knights do in the Planes?

Without disciplines, especially if a mob is slowable, any class that can hold aggro can tank. Which will typically be your knight classes due to snap aggro. It could be a ranger, but time will tell if AC is fixed or not for this launch.

[Danth]

Rangers sometimes get group slots as tanks (or sometimes take over the tank job when the previous tank leaves) on the relatively uncommon occasions that a group needs a tank and a plate tank isn't around. It's far more uncommon for a group to willingly choose a Ranger for the tank job over someone else.

Rangers won't ordinarily raid-tank except either out of necessity or as a joke.

Race is not that big a deal, as always, but the difference it does exist. In the old world an Ogre will have roughly a 6 to 8 per cent fully-buffed health advantage over something like a Dark Elf, rising to perhaps slightly over ten percent un-buffed (who tanks unbuffed?). That's not make-or-break territory, but it's enough that some players will feel like they picked wrong. Up to you.

Raid-tanking in the old world between the three plate tank classes is mostly a question of gear and how well the player in question has integrated himself into his guild's "tank corps." Warriors have the advantage due to a decade of inertia on Blue.

Melee duos work about as relatively well as they do later on.

Danth

[Keebz]

Race is not that big a deal, as always, but the difference it does exist. In the old world an Ogre will have roughly a 6 to 8 per cent fully-buffed health advantage over something like a Dark Elf, rising to perhaps slightly over ten percent un-buffed (who tanks unbuffed?). That's not make-or-break territory, but it's enough that some players will feel like they picked wrong. Up to you.
Danth

On the QoL side, there's also the issue of Str. Given how limited +Str gear is at first, low Str races on a plate class seem brutal, especially given you'll want to loot and sell everything. On the other hand, being GIANT will be annoying in dungeons (I can't imagine there will be as many shamans running around). So maybe something like Barb / Dwarf would be ideal.

[Keebz]

Group Content?
Are Rangers viable group tanks 1-50? It seems like their skill caps are more or less on par.

When blue launched rangers were paper tanks. This was due to the AC mechanics. Some still claim it's broken, while others say it is fixed and much better.


Ah, makes sense. I vividly remember Rangers being terrible last time around, but when I look at the stats / skills, they seemed pretty reasonable, so I was unsure.

Do we know when was AC "fixed"? Is there a developer post about it? I've been rooting around but there's like 10 years of disjointed grumblings on the topic.

[Danth]

Ah, makes sense. I vividly remember Rangers being terrible last time around, but when I look at the stats / skills, they seemed pretty reasonable, so I was unsure.

Do we know when was AC "fixed"? Is there a developer post about it? I've been rooting around but there's like 10 years of disjointed grumblings on the topic.

It's had its ups and downs over the years, but armor was fixed--conclusively, and proven through log parsing--about when Velious opened in 2015.

Danth

[Rooj]

My RNG was just about always the tank while leveling, and then there were times I tanked Fear and Hate also. I never really tried to tank too much beyond that, that I can recall. So I don't know how much raid tanking you can do beyond early planes but you can certainly always tank any EXP group no matter which expansion.

[BlackBellamy]

I spent my whole life in Evil or Iksar guilds, never really grouped with Rangers. What's their thing if they don't tank? DPS? How does it compare to Rogue?

[Soothsayer]

On the QoL side, there's also the issue of Str. Given how limited +Str gear is at first, low Str races on a plate class seem brutal, especially given you'll want to loot and sell everything. On the other hand, being GIANT will be annoying in dungeons (I can't imagine there will be as many shamans running around). So maybe something like Barb / Dwarf would be ideal.

Well, one thing to consider is that small armor weighs considerably less than normal or large armor. So if you aren't playing a dwarf / barbarian / etc, you do often have the advantage of being able to wear lighter armor. It doesn't totally compensate for the strength gap between the races, but it's something to note.

Elves in particular benefit from this because they can wear both normal and small sized armor, so the ability to choose small armor wherever possible is going to help mitigate the strength issue considerably.

Also, it really doesn't hurt to throw a few points into strength during character creation if your race is on the weaker side. Unless your healer is awful, he or she should have no problem keeping you healed up regardless of your starting stamina. Larger races do have an advantage, but let's be honest - there's no content in P99 that requires min-maxing. You could literally make a Dark Elf warrior, pump all your starting points into charisma, and still tank end-game content just fine with decent gear and halfway decent healers. And many healers likely won't even notice a significant difference between you and the Barbarian / Dwarf / Troll / Ogre standing next to you. This is especially true when you don't have a cleric in your group for complete heals, as you'll often be below 100% health anyway (negating the issue of max health entirely and rendering you effectively equal to other races).

Race really doesn't matter. Pick what you like or you'll hate your character and lose motivation to play. I for one could never, EVER bring myself to make an Ogre or Troll.

[Nagoya]

I spent my whole life in Evil or Iksar guilds, never really grouped with Rangers. What's their thing if they don't tank? DPS? How does it compare to Rogue?

Rangers have zones where they are the best pullers IMO.
Outdoor dungeons like Unrest or Mistmoore when levelling up they are great. With track, Harmo, Sow, Snare, Root, Bows, etc. they can pull non-stop exactly the right mobs for your group. With the "Harmo on self" trick you can pull places even better than Monks.

Otherwise they are an utility & versatile class. You will DPS of course, but in a pinch you can tank adds (Flame Lick), you can Root/Snare to ghetto CC, you can spot heal and maybe save the life of a caster, and you might have some buffs that other members of the group don't have so casting these; SoW, STR/AGi Buff, Skin like, etc.

[Keebz]

Rangers don't get SoW, until what... 39 in classic?

[Nagoya]

not 30 like current blue? that would suck for them.
either way i was just saying stuff i used to do on my ranger :)
was a fun class to play. especially loved the versatility when travelling / moving around.
SoW, Snare/Roots, Heals, Track, Levitate, Enduring Breath, Camouflage, Harmony, Infravision... you always feel like you see everything around and can outrun anything anytime. one of the safest toon i played, even though their reputation is "lol dead ranger" - didn't do much tanking tho, was mostly Pull/DPS.

[Rooj]

Yeah SoW level for RNG gets reduced at some point. Back on live during era I always wanted to level RNG but never did, which is why it was the first thing I did when coming to P99 during late Classic. Was definitely my favorite class experience. Then on one of the live progression servers I wanted to continue beyond Velious since most of my experience was Classic/Kunark so I remade my RNG on Phinigel. Was fun proccing Headshot while solo EXPing/AAing in Grieg's End.

With pulling in groups, I'd pull with Snare or Root or both, and by the time the 1st mob was dead, the 2nd mob would be arriving.

[soronil]

Just when I think I have decided against a ranger. Ugh. Do you guys think life is more fun on classic as a ranger, monk, or paladin(erudite...)? Or a gnome rogue. I will also play a mage, so I am not worried about not having a char for solo/duo, or one that is useful indoor dungeons. I'm just trying to decide what is fun. I am playing a SK right now, so part of me wants to be able to do damage, and part of me wants to not have pulling/tanking responsibility, but I do love flexibility. So hard to decide!

[Seungkyu]

@soronil
You want melee dps and no tanking/pulling. You've only left yourself one class your already interested in. Rogue. Go for it :)

@Keebz
Race/Class for Tanking
Ogre is the best Shadowknight race.
Dwarf is the best Paladin race.
Human is the best Ranger race.
It just comes down to which race has the most Sta/HP.

Erudite Paladin is comparable to Dwarf with a Shield of the Stalwart Seas.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Shield_of_the_Stalwart_Seas

High Elf Paladin gets access to Nature's Defender if you can't finish your epic by Velious.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Nature_defender

I personally believe Nature's Defender comes too late and High Elf Paladin is one of the worst class/races for min/max.

Planes/Raids
I've played both SK and Paladin during Velious endgame, and to be honest they aren't the most useful.

SK: If you are a really good FD puller and can outplay most monks, then you can be very valuable on raids.
Otherwise your relegated to ghetto dps or tanking adds.

Paladin are very useful if your very good at timing LoH to save the main tank in a raid.
I don't think Target's Target existed in classic, so this would be very hard to do on green.
Otherwise your relegated to ghetto dps or tanking adds, or healing.

Though it was very useful to heal on raids, I had this nagging voice in the back of my head. "Why didn't I just roll a cleric?"

Ranger
You become much more valuable in Velious with Trueshot and Weaponshield disciplines.
Otherwise your relegated to dps or tanking adds.

From what I can tell with skill caps and gear, a Ranger wouldn't be a bad tank in classic.

Edit: I will add some more information here since it keeps coming up.

[Seungkyu]

....
Okay I've spent more time digging some information.

One of the main things that separate War/SK/Pal/Rng is their gear. At an early point in classic there should be the Lustrous Russet armor set. With this in game the gap becomes smaller.

War/Pal/Rng comparison in full classic endgame/Lustrous Russet (Completely decked out)
The 3 are Human with initial stats invested in STA
Warrior has 500 more HP and 50 more AC than the Ranger.
Warrior has 450 more Hp and 50 less AC than the Paladin.
The Paladin has 50 more HP and 100 more AC than the Ranger.

The paladin has more AC due to certain class restrictive items such as Shield of the Immaculate, and Symbol of Marr.

What I've learned from this case study is that Warriors gain more hp per Sta than I thought.
The difference between Warrior and Sk/Pal is bigger than Sk/Pal to Ranger.

This isn't a realistic example because not everyone will be able to get a full set of Lustrous Russet.
However it shows that Rangers are more than capable of being able to tank up to level 50.

The mid level comparison for Lustrous Russet that I do expect many to get a full set on Rangers is Rubicite.

Think it took me over an hour to get all this information. Hope it helps people before it gets buried somewhere.

[Palemoon]

I was a high elf Paladin at the very start of red99. I can't remember anyone else in full rubicite but me, and then later I got a full set of lusterous and the other paladin classic toys. Was first epic server wide too and won Paladin BoTB on the server.

I ended up tanking most mobs for my guild and was tank for many of the server firsts in late classic and kunark. We used warriors and mallets for some stuff but if memory serves it was me for I think all of Kunark in era appropriate gear. I think some deep sky stuff was warrior territory.

I can say without a doubt that a Paladin (and I'd imagine SK) is the far far faaaar superior group tank compared to warrior, especially in the era where everyone wants to charm. Warrior is not saving the enchanter. Paladin can stun the mob on charmbreaks and make the enchanter's life super ez.

Can't speak on velious because I quit right before Vel.

Moral of the story: if you are a dedicated and good player, follow your heart and don't worry about min/max.

See, this makes me want to reroll a hybrid for green haha. But i'd like to try something new. Maybe bard hmm....

[Keebz]

I was a high elf Paladin at the very start of red99.

What was the exp bonus for red back then?

My main fear with paladin is not getting the useful / fun spells early (Root is 22 and Stun is 30). It just seems like a long slog being a weakling FoL bot. After that Paladin seems pretty fun though. Lots of finesse and a high skill cap.

SK and Ranger on the other hand, seem to have a decent kit by 15, and get even more useful stuff later.

So a new more distilled topic:

How would you rank the tanks by QoL while leveling on a fresh server?

All in all, SK seems like the easiest tank to start out as on fresh classic server. Great snap aggro, great QoL kit (Invis/ITU/Snare/FD/Hide), and beefy race choices, but for some reason the additional race penalty seems like a serious detriment. Not sure if that will deter groups. Being a big race (on of the appeals of SKs) also kind of sucks for dungeon-ing.

Paladin could be good but the early levels seem rough, esp. as a HIE/ERU. Not being a giant and being a good faction are probably worth something as well. Not sure if groups will actively consider the race choice. I'd imagine all things being equal, the Ogre/Troll SK will get the nod over the HIE PAL for group invites. A Dwarf might be more competitive, but they've ruined their homelands and I can't let them ruin mine.

Ranger though not a true tank has a good kit, but seems hard to get groups with, esp. if there is already a hybrid tanking. I'm thinking sticking to the outdoor dungeons may be a different story, however.

Warrior is probably near the top due to race choices and exp bonus, but the lack of abilities is going to mean maximum dependence on others. I'd give a few bonus points for Halfing due to sneak and hide, and Barb for having easy access to Langsex, being beefy, while mostly fitting in dungeons.