ALL HAIL THE LIST - THE LIST IS LOVE - THE LIST IS LIFE

[El-Hefe]

Lists
We would like players to have their fair shot at obtaining limited time items, and to that end we are devising a system for a server-kept 'list' of players in line to loot said item. Upon entering a zone or camp area, you will be able to enter a command to add yourself to the list for this item. While your name is on that list you must remain in the zone or camp vicinity until your name reaches the top (You'll have a limited time to re-enter the zone or area in case of disconnection). Once your name is up, and the item drops, you will automatically be granted exclusive permission to loot that item from the corpse. We hope this system will prevent the practice of passing camps and/or items to friends, corpsing additional items, and so on. We believe this should closely mimic how the majority of camps were handled in classic Everquest, and is the best solution to mechanically enforce it. More details about this system will be announced prior to launch.


Personally, I think this is one of the best ideas to come from the developers. Fantastic, I'm excited as hell for green now. What do you guys think?

[Oleris]

MRW I zone into guk.

https://i.imgur.com/eK3n3J8.jpg

[Octopath]

Personally, I think this is one of the best ideas to come from the developers. Fantastic, I'm excited as hell for green now. What do you guys think?

Definitely changed me from a fringe green player to definitely giving it a try

[ThonDaMan]

It's kinda cool they're implementing this. It's in the "spirit" of classic. I'm sure our best neckbeard scientists are studying ways to abuse it.

But good on them for trying.

[zaneosak]

Don't you still have to be in the zone to remain on the list or did I read that wrong?

[Zeboim]

Don't you still have to be in the zone to remain on the list or did I read that wrong?

You have to be in zone, with a small window for disconnects and such (Zoning for trains and such I imagine).

[kjs86z]

not classic

[Chortles Snort|eS]

https://i.imgur.com/ViODznR.gif

[Pyrrhica]

https://i.imgur.com/kpPj547.gif

[NegaStoat]

Edit - I got the answer I was looking for after doing some digging. In this case, lists look okay.

I want to address a few misconceptions I've seen about the Lists.

The items will still be going to those that put the time in. This is not a "Casual" mechanism. This is a "Fair playing field for those that can put the time in". You will need to be the appropriate level that we pre-determine to add to the list. You need to stay ONLINE and in the zone or near the camp. You need to pass AFK Check Mechanisms. You can only loot it once. Etc. This system is purely to prevent the same people or group of people from holding the camp for days or weeks at a time and stocking up the items for themself and their friends/guildies.

[Topgunben]

Personally, I think this is one of the best ideas to come from the developers. Fantastic, I'm excited as hell for green now. What do you guys think?

youll never beat the neckbeards. You can try all you want, but they will find a way to outsmart you. After all, this is their primary source of income after food stamps and SS disability income.

[Zuranthium]

1999 EQ is supposed to be an open world sandbox. If players want a camp then they should fight for it, as it was for the first year of EQ's existence.

If it's not going to be that, then it should be the actual Play Nice Policy in existence during the later era of "classic" EQ, which was that all camps must be shared (taking turns killing an NPC). This listing thing as outlined doesn't seem to follow that exactly. Instead it puts people in line for an item rather than the NPC. Seemingly, under this system, someone can just wait around and not actually fight the NPC, but just get the item when it drops after someone else kills it. WTF?

[hillgiantchamp]

I'm kinda wondering the same thing... what if the person on the list can't solo the mob? Or if a group is camping ass/sup they have to stop killing the assassin if someone in there group is not next on the list?

[hillgiantchamp]

What if the ee spawns and whoever's is on the list is just letting it sit up and wasting time. Can anyone kill it?

[El-Hefe]

Presumably anyone can kill it, but only the next person on the list can loot.

[kabouter]

I'm kinda wondering the same thing... what if the person on the list can't solo the mob? Or if a group is camping ass/sup they have to stop killing the assassin if someone in there group is not next on the list?

From what I read you have to be a minimum level to be on the list. I assume this will only be for certain drops like the guise, manastone, MQ for jboots, etc...

And if a group is camping the assassin they can kill him, they just can't get his loot. I think especially in the beginning there will always be a group killing these camps even if they aren't on top of the list.

Some issues I foresee:
- What if the person on top of the list is afk, will the item just rot or will it be a free for all loot after a certain amount of minutes have passed?
- What if the spawn is up, but nobody kills it. Will the #1 on the list lose its spot x amount of minutes after the spawn is up?

[YendorLootmonkey]

I'm sure the devs will enlist the help of P99's most cunning elf lawyers to figure out and close all of the loopholes in this list system to make sure its not exploitable.

[Jibartik]

I am super excited that there is a list like this but I am genuinely confused about a lot of the same things you all are haha

Like, if there is a "decided level" that you can be on the list, say that's 45.. are you not able to camp the manastone before then? Like, even if you're capable of killing it below that level, because there are level 45 people in the zone on the list, If I were to kill it, they would loot it?

That seems so strange to me.

I assumed it was just a GUI for a list that you can be added to and we just use the honor system and line/groups to make sure we follow the list. My understanding was people would skip the home made lists on purouse to give their friends spots ahead of people that waited. Which is why the GM's never used lists or made rules around them.

A server side gui would solve that problem, then we could just petition people that took cuts?

Idk, excited to hear about this idea, but the like, extra code seems like a bit of a stretch but w/e ill get a manastone one way or another I'm not worried about it. Just excited/confused about how it will work :)

[Animous]

does anyone know the command to use the lists? And how does it work? If you are in zone and it drops does a loot window pop up in your face or do you have to make your way yo the mob and loot it?

[Seungkyu]

I've been told the list has not yet been implemented yet on Green Beta, so it's a bit of a mystery at the moment.

I wonder if named mobs will go down faster, because people will cooperate for the sake of bumping their name on the list.

[uygi]

Since the thread is alive again...

I expect that we might end up with a situation where the person on the list to loot it might end up functionally PLing the group that’s there XPing. Honestly pretty classic and in keeping with early Blue as well. I remember I had a weekend where I was hardly home in like October 2010, somebody told me to come FD in LGuk and they just left me in their group all weekend. I’d occasionally look at my imputes to make sure I wasn’t dropped from group...

[urbanbo]

So I enter LGUK (at the appropriate lvl) and place my name on the list for ALL the rare items. Can I just stand at the top of the zone and wait for these things to be killed and it awards me the item automatically or do I have to actually loot the NPC at the camp?

[omgmo]

Details about how the list will function have not yet been released, afaik.

[uygi]

So I enter LGUK (at the appropriate lvl) and place my name on the list for ALL the rare items. Can I just stand at the top of the zone and wait for these things to be killed and it awards me the item automatically or do I have to actually loot the NPC at the camp?

Sounds like you get loot right, not the item. If the group chooses not to kill it promptly, I expect that you would lose your spot in line. I would hope that there might be some proximity limit beyond just in zone, and I would hope that zones with multiple /lists would restrict a player to just one.

It’s not clear what /list functionality is going to cover, all contested/high value camps or just legacy items? Definitely guise/manastone/jboots, but will Djarn’s ring get a/list? How about AC in OoT (once it exists)? I wonder if it’s just to cover the gold rush for unobtainium, or a mechanism to handle contested camps in general across the life of the server.

[whitebandit]

I wonder if named mobs will go down faster, because people will cooperate for the sake of bumping their name on the list.

When Fabled items started dropping on live Bristlebane, LowerGuk was a giant fucking party with epic 20-30 people lists for the Fabled Flowing Black Silk Sash... great fucking times.

[zaneosak]

Sounds like you get loot right, not the item. If the group chooses not to kill it promptly, I expect that you would lose your spot in line. I would hope that there might be some proximity limit beyond just in zone, and I would hope that zones with multiple /lists would restrict a player to just one.

It’s not clear what /list functionality is going to cover, all contested/high value camps or just legacy items? Definitely guise/manastone/jboots, but will Djarn’s ring get a/list? How about AC in OoT (once it exists)? I wonder if it’s just to cover the gold rush for unobtainium, or a mechanism to handle contested camps in general across the life of the server.

Hope to god it's just legacy items. If it's every camp that's gonna be annoying, sometimes its nice to XP in a place that might have less ideal XP but a chance at a rare drop. If list people that are afk at zoneline get rights to a regular rare drop like a ghoul magus robe in LGuk thats gonna be really odd.

[Baler]

If list people that are afk at zoneline get rights to a regular rare drop like a ghoul magus robe in LGuk thats gonna be really odd.

Rogean stated there is going to be some kind of AFK check in place.

[zaneosak]

Rogean stated there is going to be some kind of AFK check in place.

Even so.... if 6 of us are farming Frenzied for XP and a chance at FBSS, 5 people at zone line can have priority over FBSS just because they /listed it? Just seems to decentivise XPing in places for drops, at that point you may as well go find the best zem available for your level. I just hope it's for legacy items that will be removed only, not regular drops. Manastone, Guide, CoS, whatever. I am sure he will make it more clear in the upcoming week.

[omgmo]

I believe they said you had to be nearby as well.

In any case, I would recommend reading up on what we do know for sure, and then wait and see what the specifics are when they actually finish and release it in beta. Anything else is conjecture, maybe worrying for nothing. I doubt the devs intend make the list super stupid and/or exploitable.

[Byrjun]

This is the kind of stuff that I don't understand about P99.

So much effort is put into making this the most authentic classic experience possible, down to objectively making the game worse by removing very simple QOL features like being able to have more than 6 hot buttons and third person camera controls.

But then they implement custom stuff that completely goes against the spirit of classic EverQuest, like this list system. This particular system essentially combines the worst features of open world design with the worst features of instanced content.

Like, I get the intention, and I understand trying to ensure a fair playing field for everyone regardless of how often they're able to play the game - but that's not classic EverQuest.

If you really want people to be able to experience content on a limited schedule, then that problem was already solved a long time ago when instancing was implemented. But instancing isn't classic EQ, and neither is this list system.

There's nothing more classic EQ than some neckbeard holding the manastone camp for a week straight. If the purpose of the project is to maintain an accurate recreation of classic EQ, then I feel that all of the blemishes should be kept intact as well.

[cd288]

This is the kind of stuff that I don't understand about P99.

So much effort is put into making this the most authentic classic experience possible, down to objectively making the game worse by removing very simple QOL features like being able to have more than 6 hot buttons and third person camera controls.

But then they implement custom stuff that completely goes against the spirit of classic EverQuest, like this list system. This particular system essentially combines the worst features of open world design with the worst features of instanced content.

Like, I get the intention, and I understand trying to ensure a fair playing field for everyone regardless of how often they're able to play the game - but that's not classic EverQuest.

If you really want people to be able to experience content on a limited schedule, then that problem was already solved a long time ago when instancing was implemented. But instancing isn't classic EQ, and neither is this list system.

Sorry that you can't lock down and farm Manastones and Guises and prevent anyone outside of your guild from getting them

[Tecmos Deception]

If I make a cleric, I'll go do the list thing for a mana stone.

If I don't make a cleric, I'll have better things to do than try to get one of the thousand mana stones that this server will poop out before they get removed.

[Izmael]

Is the /list feature working on Green beta now?

[EtherX]

I believe they've stated that the list is only for legacy items like Guise and Manastone, not all rare items.

It is not a classic mechanism, but neither is knowing that a certain item will stop dropping. Some adjustments have to be made and this has been stated numerous times.

[Nagoya]

This is the kind of stuff that I don't understand about P99.

So much effort is put into making this the most authentic classic experience possible, down to objectively making the game worse by removing very simple QOL features like being able to have more than 6 hot buttons and third person camera controls.

But then they implement custom stuff that completely goes against the spirit of classic EverQuest, like this list system. This particular system essentially combines the worst features of open world design with the worst features of instanced content.

Like, I get the intention, and I understand trying to ensure a fair playing field for everyone regardless of how often they're able to play the game - but that's not classic EverQuest.

If you really want people to be able to experience content on a limited schedule, then that problem was already solved a long time ago when instancing was implemented. But instancing isn't classic EQ, and neither is this list system.

There's nothing more classic EQ than some neckbeard holding the manastone camp for a week straight. If the purpose of the project is to maintain an accurate recreation of classic EQ, then I feel that all of the blemishes should be kept intact as well.

you understand that we know today when and why every item of EQ was banned, nerfed, etc.?

there is absolutely no way of recreating classic. ever.

we can however try to recreate what it felt like to play classic, including getting on lists and looting powerful items. lists are classic as fuck. it was just not a mechanic. now it is, because it's 2019.

it's fine.
neckbeards will neckbeard s tiny bit less. and still win the game.
maybe one sock will be saved thanks to this mechanic! think about all the socks!

[Baler]

https://i.imgur.com/bR38E1M.gif

[Xer0]

not classic

neither is high res screen. broadband. forced transparent ui. 100% uptime internet connectivity. Wikis for information pertaining to spawns loot etc.

[aaezil]

This is the kind of stuff that I don't understand about P99.

So much effort is put into making this the most authentic classic experience possible, down to objectively making the game worse by removing very simple QOL features like being able to have more than 6 hot buttons and third person camera controls.

But then they implement custom stuff that completely goes against the spirit of classic EverQuest, like this list system. This particular system essentially combines the worst features of open world design with the worst features of instanced content.

Like, I get the intention, and I understand trying to ensure a fair playing field for everyone regardless of how often they're able to play the game - but that's not classic EverQuest.

If you really want people to be able to experience content on a limited schedule, then that problem was already solved a long time ago when instancing was implemented. But instancing isn't classic EQ, and neither is this list system.

There's nothing more classic EQ than some neckbeard holding the manastone camp for a week straight. If the purpose of the project is to maintain an accurate recreation of classic EQ, then I feel that all of the blemishes should be kept intact as well.


Found the unemployed stay at home son right here

Sorry you wont get camp lockdown

[Sillyturtle]

I believe they've stated that the list is only for legacy items like Guise and Manastone, not all rare items.

It is not a classic mechanism, but neither is knowing that a certain item will stop dropping. Some adjustments have to be made and this has been stated numerous times.

Pretty sure they said it will include a lot more than just these two things. Like, lots more. I’d be shocked if things like GEBS weren’t on there and they never stop dropping

[JayDee]

https://i.imgur.com/bR38E1M.gif

Made me lol

[Byrjun]

Sorry that you can't lock down and farm Manastones and Guises and prevent anyone outside of your guild from getting them

Found the unemployed stay at home son right here

Sorry you wont get camp lockdown

Ah okay, now I remember why I stopped interacting with the P99 community.

I work full time and I'm currently pretty invested into WoW Classic. I'm going to be playing on Green very casually if I play at all. I camped a couple manastones back in 2009, and I sold them for next to nothing because everyone had one. I don't really give a shit about whether I personally get a manastone on Green or not.

But, my post had nothing to do with what I'm personally planning to do on Green. I don't know why everyone on the internet has to take every comment as some personal attack against them and turn every discussion into a battle of us vs. them. Can't you people act like grown adults for once?

I don't care if you like a mechanic because it gives you an advantage or dislike a mechanic because it gives your opponents an advantage. None of that shit matters. The development team has been clear that their main goal is an accurate recreation of classic EverQuest. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings but Nilbog didn't start this project just so that one day aaezil and cd288 could loot a manastone.

Anyways, I don't really care if /list exists or not. My personal opinion is that it's silly, manastones aren't that rare, they're in the game for a long time, and everyone will have an opportunity to buy one even if they can't farm it themselves. And that applies to just about every item in the game. It's also a completely arbitrary mechanic, since there's really no difference between farming HBCs for a few days to sell and buying the gear your character needs, and just camping that gear directly. It's all the same, /list doesn't really change anything, except for forcing players to play in a specific way. In other words, neckbeards don't really suffer directly, it's really just the people who prefer to sit in the same room and camp a single item for awhile for profit. Ironically these are usually the people who are playing from work or while they have some sort of other distraction going on, not the NEETs.

But I digress, and my personal opinion is mostly irrelevant anyways.

My original point is that there was a design philosophy that went into creating EverQuest, and that unique design philosophy is what makes the game what it is.

Part of that original design philosophy is that just like in real life, players will come into contact with one another and they will have to compete for resources. That is a big part of the immersive online experience that EverQuest provides. And sure it sucks to have to compete with other people sometimes, but if you remove the competition for resources then you remove a big part of what makes EverQuest EverQuest, and now we're just playing a shoddy WoW clone with terrible nostalgia graphics.

So, my comment has nothing to do with the eternal neckbeard vs. casual conflict, so stop framing every discussion in that way. The discussion was about whether this is a mechanic that makes sense within the context of the game or not. And I think that's a clear no.

[Byrjun]

And now I remember why I disliked these forums - the lack of an ability to edit a post. C'mon developer dudes, I think forums invented this technology before Everquest even came out.

Imagine this part is attached above:

EDIT:

Oh yeah, I meant to respond to this one too:

there is absolutely no way of recreating classic. ever.

I've heard some version of this phrase about a hundred times since P99 launched. "Why bother removing the target ring/compass/maps, you can't perfectly recreate classic anyways?"

I probably heard it about a hundred more times with WoW Classic. I'm not sure why people default to this, because it's a pretty stupid thing to say.

It must be one of those logical fallacy things with some sort of fancy name, one of you college goin' folk can probably chime in on that. But whether or not the staff can perfectly recreate classic EverQuest is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that they can't doesn't invalidate the entire project somehow. That's literal crazy talk.

we can however try to recreate what it felt like to play classic, including getting on lists and looting powerful items. lists are classic as fuck. it was just not a mechanic.

So your argument is that /list is an integral part of the classic EQ experience, even though it's never existed before until now, 20 years after the release of the game this project is aiming to emulate?

That's even crazier talk.

[bum3]

Nagoya is talking about top guild and public lists that was in classic. On Tunare, naggy and vox loot was handled by lists. Raid schedules were as well. They were just kept by the community and not by a script.

[toasteroven]

This is the kind of stuff that I don't understand about P99.

So much effort is put into making this the most authentic classic experience possible, down to objectively making the game worse by removing very simple QOL features like being able to have more than 6 hot buttons and third person camera controls.

But then they implement custom stuff that completely goes against the spirit of classic EverQuest, like this list system. This particular system essentially combines the worst features of open world design with the worst features of instanced content.

Like, I get the intention, and I understand trying to ensure a fair playing field for everyone regardless of how often they're able to play the game - but that's not classic EverQuest.

If you really want people to be able to experience content on a limited schedule, then that problem was already solved a long time ago when instancing was implemented. But instancing isn't classic EQ, and neither is this list system.

There's nothing more classic EQ than some neckbeard holding the manastone camp for a week straight. If the purpose of the project is to maintain an accurate recreation of classic EQ, then I feel that all of the blemishes should be kept intact as well.

This

[Byrjun]

Nagoya is talking about top guild and public lists that was in classic. On Tunare, naggy and vox loot was handled by lists. Raid schedules were as well. They were just kept by the community and not by a script.

Sure, and there were lists for camps like goblins in HHK. That was definitely a part of the game.

But there's a massive difference between a player-maintained and agreed upon list, and a command baked into the game that forces other players to obey it. They're completely different things, and I don't feel like the latter is in the spirit of classic EQ, for the reasons I mentioned above.

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

They should just leave the poopsockers to it. They are the ones probably hurting their bodies barely sleeping and/or screwing over people for pixels. Not meant as an insult, if someone feels strongly enough about a manastone that they would screw over another player or sit for 48 hours straight waiting...then er cool :D

[bum3]

Sure, and there were lists for camps like goblins in HHK. That was definitely a part of the game.

But there's a massive difference between a player-maintained and agreed upon list, and a command baked into the game that forces other players to obey it. They're completely different things, and I don't feel like the latter is in the spirit of classic EQ, for the reasons I mentioned above.

A poopsocker who broke the player agreed upon lists and ks or took the camp by force was warned and removed from the zone by a guide. Just pretend the command baked in is a player agreed upon list in that manner and all is good. Because the majority do in fact agree on the command list.

[Whirled]

It'd be funny if those opposing the list idea were put on the packets of death list; so they'd still get their own form of list. :D

[Gustoo]

On classic these items weren't permacamped. For psycopaths the best long term investment in this server would be to permacamp the manastone because it is a super easy camp and it has a very high value item. It is the best use of time in the game. You could get and hold that camp for a couple weeks and then trade manastones for PL's for like 100 other characters or other raid drops that take massive time to get.

For this reason, the only thing that makes sense is either to not have the item in the game which is what verant would have done, or to make the /list so you basically need to level up a character to viability and THEN sit in line each time you want to get 1 manastone. It means there will be a much MORE classic allocation of manastones than there otherwise would be.

Its a classic nostalgia / recreation server and they do what they can to emulate the game itself and in this case the classic player experience.

It is the best idea ever.

Locket of Escape i guess will be the same situation which will mean they won't be all stuck in the hands of psychopaths which is really great.

At the same time, I dunno. Melee were just not meant to be able to bind anywhere. If you let people have these items, melee is now a binding class, and with a gate pot they are now gating classes too which further gimps out classes that have those abilities built in.

[Kornaki]

At the same time, I dunno. Melee were just not meant to be able to bind anywhere. If you let people have these items, melee is now a binding class, and with a gate pot they are now gating classes too which further gimps out classes that have those abilities built in.

If there's one thing everyone agrees on, it's that warriors are already op compared to classes that can gate.

[Byrjun]

A poopsocker who broke the player agreed upon lists and ks or took the camp by force was warned and removed from the zone by a guide. Just pretend the command baked in is a player agreed upon list in that manner and all is good. Because the majority do in fact agree on the command list.

Yes, there are rules that govern camping and rules against KSing.

That has nothing to do with /list.

For people who are in favor of /list: What would your reaction be if the developers announced that they were adding instanced versions of all the game's dungeons?

[bum3]

Yes, there are rules that govern camping and rules against KSing.

That has nothing to do with /list.

For people who are in favor of /list: What would your reaction be if the developers announced that they were adding instanced versions of all the game's dungeons?

Wouldn't it more similar to spawning epic mobs with a turn in vs a guild camping the 1 week spawn forever?

[bum3]

The /list is just a automatic version of the community list that does the exact same thing. Minus the constant GM intervention to stop asshats from ruining community lists. Same concept just less nonsense work for devs.

[EtherX]

The list is only for legacy items.

People did not originally know these items would be removed from the game and thus were not as fervently pursued.

P99 does not have the staff to enforce the rules/play nice policy that EQ originally had.

Hence, the list. That's it.

Don't understand why that's so hard to understand that it is the only practical way to emulate the classic environment and deal with a new issue (player knowledge). You can have the competition for camps etc. on literally every other desired item besides legacy items.

[bum3]

The list is only for legacy items.

People did not originally know these items would be removed from the game and thus were not as fervently pursued.

P99 does not have the staff to enforce the rules/play nice policy that EQ originally had.

Hence, the list. That's it.

Don't understand why that's so hard to understand that it is the only practical way to emulate the classic environment and deal with a new issue (player knowledge). You can have the competition for camps etc. on literally every other desired item besides legacy items.

/cheers

[cd288]

Sure, and there were lists for camps like goblins in HHK. That was definitely a part of the game.

But there's a massive difference between a player-maintained and agreed upon list, and a command baked into the game that forces other players to obey it. They're completely different things, and I don't feel like the latter is in the spirit of classic EQ, for the reasons I mentioned above.

The problem with applying player-made lists for highly sought after items on an emulated server is that we don't have the CSR coverage on P99 that you did back in the day on live.

During the Guide days, there were tons of Guides and GMs. I remember hanging out in CSHome on various different servers and there were always like 7-10 CSR members (mostly Guides unless it was during a GM's shift) in there during the busier hours. So it was much easier to prevent people screwing around with the player made list (i.e. ignoring it or letting their friends jump ahead if they were keeping the list) because for the most part you could get CSR assistance a lot quicker to enforce the list. On P99, there just aren't the resources for that.

This isn't intended as any disrespect to the staff of course. The GMs and Guides do a great job, there's just not a ton of them (and understandably so).

[Samaritan]

Anyone broken down the numbers on the LGuk camps?


Dozens if not hundreds of names on the list.



Is the EE going to be on a 28 min timer?


Manastone is a "rare" drop - anyone know the % for that?


I'm thinking, even with the list, it could be a very, very long time for some of us filthy casuals.

[kylok]

I do not believe everyone who wants a manastone will get one.

[FishBait01]

this is dumb and not classic.

In classic, we stole items from corpses and didn't tell our group that things dropped.

That is how it is done, not this system that will not work and be eventually removed.

[magusfire24]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/UJR3QgkMnm7tu/source.gif