I swear the server is filled with three year olds

[hotkarlmarxbros]

Three year olds whose vocabulary consists only of the word "MINE!" and nothing else.

Here is the situation: Fragmented is killing all three ice giants outside of permafrost. Great. He can have the two spawn, now that I'm here, I will take the single spawn. I assume this goes without saying because these are two separate camps as there is nowhere you could sit maintaining LOS on all three mobs (which I could be mistaken, please correct me if I'm wrong). After killing the single spawn we come back to a bit of an outburst.

outburst (https://imgur.com/jjzOc0W)

After stating this, his buddy Scrody shows up and sits at the two spawn and he plops down next to me at the single spawn, ready to nuke down the ice giant when he pops:

situation (https://imgur.com/O0DHfm6)

As there are no GMs on, I humbly submit this to RnF in hopes of getting some clarification. Are all three ice giants a single camp making me the asshole here? Or is the single spawn a separate camp and Fragmented is in the wrong?

[icedwards]

Separate camps, case closed.

[Fammaden]

Bullshit, you took his merb BRO!

[gildor]

You are an asshole for not communicating with him before taking the camp. Talk people, it goes a long way.

[supercalif]

Agree, separate camps, I’ve done a lot of ice giants in my time and fragmented is incorrect.

[Xulia]

You are an asshole for not communicating with him before taking the camp. Talk people, it goes a long way.

If a camp is open, and all mobs respawned - in this case a single giant - why do you need to communicate with anyone? Calling a Camp Check is usually considered good form, but it's also not necessary if you are at a camp and it's unattended and fully respawned.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

You are an asshole for not communicating with him before taking the camp. Talk people, it goes a long way.

I agree, communication is important. However, in this case, you really think this would've addressed the issue rather than just moving his tantrum from the time where I killed the mob to the time where I said I was setting up camp?

[gildor]

I agree, communication is important. However, in this case, you really think this would've addressed the issue rather than just moving his tantrum from the time where I killed the mob to the time where I said I was setting up camp?

Oh no of course not. He would have splerged out on you either way. Just made the observation that you didn't say a word ahead of time.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

If a camp is open, and all mobs respawned - in this case a single giant - why do you need to communicate with anyone? Calling a Camp Check is usually considered good form, but it's also not necessary if you are at a camp and it's unattended and fully respawned.

In an effort to maintain full disclosure, the mob was not up when I gated in. I sat down, waited for the mob to spawn, then shortly after I killed it was greeted with his charming reaction. I figure we are all adults here and aware of camp rules. He seemed to be conveniently unaware and then proceeded to nuke down the next mob that spawned in front of me. His buddy Scrody left shortly after that and he waddled back to his 2 spawn and sat there saying nothing else.

[Ghostly]

In an effort to maintain full disclosure, the mob was not up when I gated in. I sat down, waited for the mob to spawn, then shortly after I killed it was greeted with his charming reaction. I figure we are all adults here and aware of camp rules. He seemed to be conveniently unaware and then proceeded to nuke down the next mob that spawned in front of me. His buddy Scrody left shortly after that and he waddled back to his 2 spawn and sat there saying nothing else.

Sounds to me like you knew someone else was camping it since it wasn't up when you got there, and instead of asking if they would concede the camp, you just sat down and took it.

While i agree that the dude is out of line with thinking its his camp, you were the one who started the whole thing by essentially stealing the camp before it was conceded.

Long story short, you're both in the wrong, and you're both idiots.

[azeth]

I side with Fragmented here. Also that was hardly a childish outburst, he was just clear and forceful with his intentions.

OP arrives to a camp to find the mob dead. He does not contact the individual who cleared the camp and instead waits for respawn then kills it. Then is upset that the individual told him to stop.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

I side with Fragmented here. Also that was hardly a childish outburst, he was just clear and forceful with his intentions.

OP arrives to a camp to find the mob dead. He does not contact the individual who cleared the camp and instead waits for respawn then kills it. Then is upset that the individual told him to stop.

I mean, you're objectively wrong by established rules surrounding how camps work. And I hardly see how it is my responsibility to track down whomever killed a mob at a vacant camp. And is the subsequent KS of two giants before retreating to his two camp something you side with as well?

[azeth]

I mean, you're objectively wrong by established rules surrounding how camps work. And I hardly see how it is my responsibility to track down whomever killed a mob at a vacant camp. And is the subsequent KS of two giants before retreating to his two camp something you side with as well?

Damn you are pretty pissed off about losing this camp, yea?

[dk0]

OP, you're an absolute child for not communicating with Fragmented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

This server is a community. Yes, there are rules for establishing and holding camps. However it's expected that adults play this game and will communicate with each other to facilitate in a positive way. Fragmented is completely justified in his "wtf" (excessive reaction and he's in the wrong for that, no doubt). You are in the wrong for just showing up and just taking a spawn that was down, it's a scummy move and this whole thing could have been avoided had you not pulled this scummy move. Please grow up and use language to communicate with people.

Wait, let me try this, it might resonate better:

If you use your words, Santa will bring you a new toy for Christmas!

[kempoguy80]

You are an asshole for not communicating with him before taking the camp. Talk people, it goes a long way.

[Xulia]

I mean, you're objectively wrong by established rules surrounding how camps work. And I hardly see how it is my responsibility to track down whomever killed a mob at a vacant camp.

That's just it though - if he was managing to keep the giant down and was on the other two which aren't very far away the camp wasn't vacant. As much as the consensus seems to be that they're two separate camps, they're also not far from each other at all. I am aware the rules say that one person cannot hold multiple camps, but with this new information about you arriving to find the giant down and waiting for it to spawn... I support the side of the original camper in as far as they weren't acting in a childish manner.

Seems that you both could've communicated better and come to a reasonable agreement.

[Ghostly]

I mean, you're objectively wrong by established rules surrounding how camps work. And I hardly see how it is my responsibility to track down whomever killed a mob at a vacant camp. And is the subsequent KS of two giants before retreating to his two camp something you side with as well?

"You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it."

You're in the wrong. You went in and stole the camp that you knew was taken without allowing the person holding the camp the chance to either keep or concede it. It's the rule. You broke it. Now you're here making yourself look stupid because you can't understand basic principles.

[kaizersoze]

How long did you wait before the mob popped before you killed it? If the mob was dead when you showed up and you killed it as soon as it popped without even giving the person a chance to take down what they clearly were camping, you're in the wrong.

[Smyd]

OP, you're an absolute child for not communicating with Fragmented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

This server is a community. Yes, there are rules for establishing and holding camps. However it's expected that adults play this game and will communicate with each other to facilitate in a positive way. Fragmented is completely justified in his "wtf" (excessive reaction and he's in the wrong for that, no doubt). You are in the wrong for just showing up and just taking a spawn that was down, it's a scummy move and this whole thing could have been avoided had you not pulled this scummy move. Please grow up and use language to communicate with people.

Wait, let me try this, it might resonate better:

If you use your words, Santa will bring you a new toy for Christmas!

Truth. Just because the rules back you up, doesn't mean it justifies the lack of communication.
Typical case of hiding behind a rule set to mask your own childish behaviour.

I kiss you.

[Ruhtar]

As others have said, this is a case of bad communication. While it's true that you can contest the camp since it would be considered two separate camps (depending on guide and how they feel that day), you have to communicate that you're contesting and give the original camper the option of which to take. Obviously he would take the camp of 2, but you can't just roll up on a cleared spawn and steal it as soon as it pops.

[Ghostly]

Truth. Just because the rules back you up, doesn't mean it justifies the lack of communication.
Typical case of hiding behind a rule set to mask your own childish behaviour.

I kiss you.

But the rule doesn't back him up. It literally says that what he did was wrong.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

Damn you are pretty pissed off about losing this camp, yea?

If this were just a one-off incident then sure, I can just let it go. This was the second time I encountered this sort of selfish behavior TODAY, though, and it is getting pretty obnoxious to see over and over again. With only rare instances of repercussions for this kind of behavior, so many people take it up as the default reaction and a totally normal way of interacting with others.

I don't think it is unreasonable to want to play a game where people adhere to the rules and interact with each other respectfully. But as long as these immature assholes continue to see no consequences for this kind of antisocial behavior, it is just going to proliferate and drive away reasonable people that don't want to engage with that sort of nonsense in their free time and we are left with nothing but selfish douchebags on the server.

[Mblake81]

Three year olds whose vocabulary consists only of the word "MINE!" and nothing else.

outburst (https://imgur.com/jjzOc0W)

After stating this, his buddy Scrody shows up and sits at the two spawn and he plops down next to me at the single spawn, ready to nuke down the ice giant when he pops:

situation (https://imgur.com/O0DHfm6)

As there are no GMs on, I humbly submit this to RnF in hopes of getting some clarification. Are all three ice giants a single camp making me the asshole here? Or is the single spawn a separate camp and Fragmented is in the wrong?

Fragmented and his brother are not three years old. They have been on this server for many years. Never heard them have a 'tantrum' or 'outburst'. Usually doing all of the port work when Hydra was still a thing.

If someone has something like this, ask to share, go somewhere else or come back later. If they don't want to share, pick up your bricks and move along. It takes time & persistence to get the things you want in EQ... praise be. They had to eventually put in instances which ruined EQ.

It's about the only value to be had in valueless pixels.

[fortior]

OP, you were wrong.

Correct move: see 2 camps are taken by 1 player, ask that player which one they want to concede to you. They have to concede one, which you can then take.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

"You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it."

You're in the wrong. You went in and stole the camp that you knew was taken without allowing the person holding the camp the chance to either keep or concede it. It's the rule. You broke it. Now you're here making yourself look stupid because you can't understand basic principles.

You know what, that is fine. If he wanted to claim that camp, there is no problem there. I would just move to the 2 spawn and camp there. But he very clearly did not. He claimed that all three giants belonged to him. So in that case, I came here for clarification of whether this was one camp or two.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. At no point did I break any rules. If you want to say I'm making myself look stupid for my calm and measured replies to his childish outburs then I think that says a lot more about your opinion than mine. If you want to say that he was 'contesting' a mob that he didn't even show up until it was already dotted to death to start crying, and I should've given him the option to sit at the single spawn rather than the two spawn (lol?), then it really just sounds like you're grasping for a reason to call me out while turning a blind eye to him being objectively wrong.

[Lordgordon]

LOSER

[Kushida]

Sounds like you tried to rule-lawyer him out of a camp, but you fucked up and broke server rules yourself. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Btw Fragmented is an awesome, selfless, and helpful dude that has been been a positive presence and community leader on this server for a long time.

[Ghostly]

You know what, that is fine. If he wanted to claim that camp, there is no problem there. I would just move to the 2 spawn and camp there. But he very clearly did not. He claimed that all three giants belonged to him. So in that case, I came here for clarification of whether this was one camp or two.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. At no point did I break any rules. If you want to say I'm making myself look stupid for my calm and measured replies to his childish outburs then I think that says a lot more about your opinion than mine. If you want to say that he was 'contesting' a mob that he didn't even show up until it was already dotted to death to start crying, and I should've given him the option to sit at the single spawn rather than the two spawn (lol?), then it really just sounds like you're grasping for a reason to call me out while turning a blind eye to him being objectively wrong.

Dude, you still don't think you broke a rule?? It is against the rules for you to take the camp without speaking with him first. You've already admitted that you just sat down and took the camp, KNOWING IT WAS CAMPED, without even talking to anyone.

Regardless of what happened after you STOLE his camp, you started this whole thing by being a punk who thought he could just take whatever camp he wanted to.

You're blatantly wrong and grasping at straws at this point. Your failed at your RnF. You're making yourself look worse by sticking to this crybaby shit that you're doing.

You... Were... Wrong...

[branamil]

One time I got extremely upset about rights to slay an ice giant in an emulation Of late 90s fantasy guild

[Smyd]

But the rule doesn't back him up. It literally says that what he did was wrong.

Yup, your excerpt actually sums it up quite perfectly....

[Wonkie]

you have to talk to him before you take his camp

[theonesler]

Sorry OP, consensus is you should have communicated better and the camp was not yours to take just because he was holding 2 camps simultaneously. It happens. Just own up to it and move on.

If you keep up your "NO! I'm not in the wrong, HE is in the wrong" shtick this RnF thread is gonna fall on your head, not his...

[pink grapefruit]

lol, bluebies.

[Arvan]

filed under antisocial behaviour

[Legday]

Straight out of the PNP...

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

Please do your best to use courtesy and common sense when interacting with other players in spawn disputes.


While you clearly had the right to have asked Fragmented which camp he wanted to keep, any GM that showed up would have found out that you did not ask at all. You showed up to a situation that very clearly was Fragmented killing all 3 spawns and then you knowingly killed one of his spawns when it repopped and he was still over by the other IGs because you thought you had the rules on your side.

The GM would have sided with Fragmented simply because you were being a jerk about it.

And stop acting like Fragmented's response hurt your feelings. Was he a little pissed? Yeah. Did he have a right to grill you for not handling it like you should have? Yeah.

[Skarne]

Yeah man I agree with fragmented. You obviously have a sense of entitlement. I know I probably would have been just as upset as he if you decided to just take a respawn without any common courtesy. Very rude, you should be ashamed, sir!

[kjs86z]

I love RnF backfires.

[Mblake81]

I love RnF backfires.

https://i.imgur.com/truHHY8.gif

[Daldaen]

This is a good example of why Green needs to have no rules and no GM Intervention.

Getting upset over random trash mobs being taken from your camp is quintessential P99 coddled player behavior. Just play the game and kill mobs that you see up. If you kill it first grats, if you can’t kill it first be faster or bring more DPS with you. If you don’t want to race for mobs move to a different location.

[Xulia]

Just play the game and kill mobs that you see up.


Or we could just talk it out and come to an agreement instead of being dicks.

[loramin]

P99 Etiquette, A Lesson in Five Lines

A: "Hello, are you camping these mobs?"
B: "Why yes sir, I am."
A: "Alright, thank you. Would you like to split the camp?"
B: "No thanks, but I'll let you know when I'm done"
A: "Thank you! Have a nice day."

Exactly, well put!

... unless someone is "camping" more than one "camp" of mobs (which is a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do when no one else is around) and refuses to stop doing so when someone else shows up.

In that case, the dialogue might change a little:

A: "Alright, thank you. Would you like to split the camp?"
B: "No thanks, but I'll let you know when I'm done"
A: "Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're not allowed to claim every Yeti in the Dreadlands for yourself, no matter how twinked you are. Which spawn point would you like to keep?"

;)

[YendorLootmonkey]

Knowing the rules now will be very important on Green when every single individual spawn in Crushbone is camped by a player.

[Stroboo]

Wait, wait, wait - OP shows up at a camp where the mob was dead, takes the camp without saying anything, then tries to Lawyer-quest in RnF. I'm not saying he is wrong, but i am saying he is - as he puts it - a three year old...i want what i want and i want it now - right OP?

[shuklak]

Wait, wait, wait - OP shows up at a camp where the mob was dead, takes the camp without saying anything, then tries to Lawyer-quest in RnF. I'm not saying he is wrong, but i am saying he is - as he puts it - a three year old...i want what i want and i want it now - right OP?

Op is definitely the type of person that makes gms hate their volunteer work.

[Nexii]

This is a good example of why Green needs to have no rules and no GM Intervention.

Getting upset over random trash mobs being taken from your camp is quintessential P99 coddled player behavior. Just play the game and kill mobs that you see up. If you kill it first grats, if you can’t kill it first be faster or bring more DPS with you. If you don’t want to race for mobs move to a different location.

Wish it applied to raid mobs too.

[kaizersoze]

A guild of all wizards and rogues would get all the loot.

[indiscriminate_hater]

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

Please do your best to use courtesy and common sense when interacting with other players in spawn disputes.

Pretty cut and dry OP, sorry you lost at RnF

[Xulia]

Wish it applied to raid mobs too.

The belief: Only the strong will prosper! The weak shall be made to witness our MIGHT!

The reality: <Riot>

[Qtip]

Three year olds whose vocabulary consists only of the word "MINE!" and nothing else.

Here is the situation: Fragmented is killing all three ice giants outside of permafrost. Great. He can have the two spawn, now that I'm here, I will take the single spawn. I assume this goes without saying because these are two separate camps as there is nowhere you could sit maintaining LOS on all three mobs (which I could be mistaken, please correct me if I'm wrong). After killing the single spawn we come back to a bit of an outburst.

outburst (https://imgur.com/jjzOc0W)

After stating this, his buddy Scrody shows up and sits at the two spawn and he plops down next to me at the single spawn, ready to nuke down the ice giant when he pops:

situation (https://imgur.com/O0DHfm6)

As there are no GMs on, I humbly submit this to RnF in hopes of getting some clarification. Are all three ice giants a single camp making me the asshole here? Or is the single spawn a separate camp and Fragmented is in the wrong?

3 mobs within 10 seconds of each other is one camp if you can keep them down. You could break any camp in this game with multiple turns into separate camps if this was the case.

Lguk Lord area would be multiple camps, but considered one camp if you call lord. Because you cant see lords room from the beginning of the hallway doesnt make it 2 camps.

[Worry]

I don't get caught up in camp drama because when it arises it's a good excuse to try out a more obscure zone, so I can't personally comment on the rules here BUT...

Fragmented is a good dude, and I've had multiple positive encounters with him over the years.

[beversami]

Is the book up?

[Sacer]

While I don't like what OP did, it's true that no one have a clue how it works GM included.

It's suposed to be an outdoor zone so it should be FFA?

There is also that rule that a camp is only 1 room where you need line of sight on all the mobs, that third giant is cleary not in line of sight and should be considered a second camp?

I have also this issue when doing frenzy in velk, I also do CE on the way and people lawyer me out of the camp all the time saying frenzy + CE is 2 different camp, but I keep them down and from frenzy I clearly have line of sight on CE they're so close.

Another example not long ago I log in at BM in velk, everything is up two named up I start to clear, and like 10min later there is a dude telling me I am stealing his camp, I didn't do a camp check and he died and was recovering at entrance, I am clearly in the wrong he said. I gave him his camp back because I don't like drama but really people are so entitled. Tecnically that camp was mine already and that guy just stole one of the named while I was killing the other.

[Thermite]

Waiting on the day Nilbog pulls the plug and claims all the camps for himself.... lord of the loot

[Valakut]

Are all three ice giants a single camp making me the asshole here? Or is the single spawn a separate camp and Fragmented is in the wrong?

"Actually this is an outdoor zone. So, FTE rules normally apply. However, you are allowed to claim a single spawn point as a camp in outdoor zones." - Andakos

https://i.imgur.com/3X7FSMA.jpg

Time to flush out the ice giant camp

[Wonkie]

guys lay off OP he might just be very stupid so it's problematic to pick on him

[Lordgordon]

If there were 6 elfs there would you have to take turns?

[hotkarlmarxbros]

Eh, like I said, though the mob was dead, the camp was empty when I arrived. I have no way of knowing who killed the mob unless they show up to say it was them that killed it. Should he have shown up at any point to claim that as his camp, as I have said, I would have no problem conceding the camp. But he didn’t. He showed up with a REEEE stating that all three mobs were his and I “stole” the mob that popped and died prior to him ever even making it back to the camp to “maintain” it anyway.

Now I’m a relatively new player, but to me him saying that he is “totally” sure that all three giants are one camp and to ks the next two mobs at the camp feels a lot like everyone here is siding with a bully. And clearly he is an older player and knows the rules surrounding what constitutes a camp and deliberately misled me in an effort to chase me off. If that is the sort of behavior you feel comfortable interacting with and encouraging, then great, enjoy it, there is plenty to go around here as it seems to be totally unchecked.

Lesson learned on my part, though. Next time I will /ooc that I am taking a camp so that we can see the childish tantrum prior to me killing the mob at a vacant camp rather than afterwards.

[Qtip]

"Actually this is an outdoor zone. So, FTE rules normally apply. However, you are allowed to claim a single spawn point as a camp in outdoor zones." - Andakos

https://i.imgur.com/3X7FSMA.jpg

Time to flush out the ice giant camp

That would mean every goblin in highkeep are multiple camps, Ec orcs are multiple camps, BB docks are multiple camps, spectres in oasis are multiple camps.

A camp should defined as being able to keep all mobs down before repops.

[loramin]

While I don't like what OP did, it's true that no one have a clue how it works GM included.

It's suposed to be an outdoor zone so it should be FFA?

There is also that rule that a camp is only 1 room where you need line of sight on all the mobs, that third giant is cleary not in line of sight and should be considered a second camp?

I have also this issue when doing frenzy in velk, I also do CE on the way and people lawyer me out of the camp all the time saying frenzy + CE is 2 different camp, but I keep them down and from frenzy I clearly have line of sight on CE they're so close.

Another example not long ago I log in at BM in velk, everything is up two named up I start to clear, and like 10min later there is a dude telling me I am stealing his camp, I didn't do a camp check and he died and was recovering at entrance, I am clearly in the wrong he said. I gave him his camp back because I don't like drama but really people are so entitled. Tecnically that camp was mine already and that guy just stole one of the named while I was killing the other.

I'm not sure I agree with the "GM included" part, but you used to sort of have a point. For awhile at least a lot of this server's rules were only available in the heads of the GMs, and it was difficult for anyone else to know them unless they read every post the staff made on the forums.

But then some bored idiot made the wiki's Camp Rules page (http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules). And soon thereafter someone who was neither bored nor an idiot (but rather a tireless volunteer staff member who keeps making things better for everyone despite having a thankless job) modified the official server Play Nice Policies (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349) to summarize those same rules (although you still need the Camp Rules page for some of the gritty details).

Between those two people and their efforts, that old excuse is pretty much gone now. Anyone who has any interest in understanding how camp rules works can either read the official server rules on the forum OR the slightly more detailed Camp Rules wiki page, and have all their questions answered.

[Wonkie]

I'm not sure I agree with the "GM included" part, but you used to sort of have a point. For awhile at least a lot of this server's rules were only available in the heads of the GMs, and it was difficult for anyone else to know them unless they read every post the staff made on the forums.

But then some bored idiot made the wiki's Camp Rules page (http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules). And soon thereafter someone who was neither bored nor an idiot (but rather a tireless volunteer staff member who keeps making things better for everyone despite having a thankless job) modified the official server Play Nice Policies (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349) to summarize those same rules (although you still need the Camp Rules page for some of the gritty details).

Between those two people and their efforts, that old excuse is pretty much gone now. Anyone who has any interest in understanding how camp rules works can either read the official server rules on the forum OR the slightly more detailed Camp Rules wiki page, and have all their questions answered.

Vichy

[loramin]

A camp should defined as being able to keep all mobs down before repops.

I disagree, and it basically comes down to whether you think people on a MMO server should have to share with each other or not.

Take a camp like A4 in PoM (one of the only sources of thrones). One player can hold down four rooms of mobs (five mobs total), even though they all have a million hit points, because PoM has a 72 min respawn timer.

But at the same time, up to four people could also share that same camp. The server rules decide which situation is better: four people sharing one room each, or one player getting all the rooms and three other players not having.

I think the staff made the correct choice in how they setup the rules here: I think four people sharing is better than three people sitting there doing nothing while one greedy person keeps everything for themself.

[Jibartik]

HEY! I take offense!

We are ADULT 3 year olds.

[loramin]

So first off, I don't mean to dogpile on you. Not every new player reads the play nice policies and commits them to memory. People make mistakes, and as long as no harm was intended and they learn from their mistake ... no harm no foul.

But I want to point something out about:

though the mob was dead, the camp was empty when I arrived. I have no way of knowing who killed the mob unless they show up to say it was them that killed it.

Very few mobs (like the famous Sarnak Courier or Fippy Darkpaw) commit suicide. Less than 0.01% of the named mobs on the server I'd guess.

So by definition, if you see a mob not up, that has to mean the mob was killed by another player. And if you do read the Play Nice Policies, it's clear that (emphasis added):

In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested ...

So, ignorance of the server rules is a reasonable excuse, but once you're aware of them there should be zero confusion: if a mob isn't up when you arrive, and you are not alone in the zone, that mob isn't your's.

[loramin]

(Or at least, you should proceed with that assumption until you either A) check with every person in the zone, or B) hang out, wait for the mob to spawn, wait a "reasonable" amount of time for the mob's owner to show up and kill it, and only after that "reasonable" amount of time if the mob is still up then maybe it actually is your's.)

[Skarne]

I'm not sure I agree with the "GM included" part, but you used to sort of have a point. For awhile at least a lot of this server's rules were only available in the heads of the GMs, and it was difficult for anyone else to know them unless they read every post the staff made on the forums.

But then some bored idiot made the wiki's Camp Rules page (http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules). And soon thereafter someone who was neither bored nor an idiot (but rather a tireless volunteer staff member who keeps making things better for everyone despite having a thankless job) modified the official server Play Nice Policies (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349) to summarize those same rules (although you still need the Camp Rules page for some of the gritty details).

Between those two people and their efforts, that old excuse is pretty much gone now. Anyone who has any interest in understanding how camp rules works can either read the official server rules on the forum OR the slightly more detailed Camp Rules wiki page, and have all their questions answered.

Loramin is the best

[hotkarlmarxbros]

loramin, I appreciate what you are trying to say, and I 100% agree with you that I should either give an /ooc that I am contesting a vacant camp or just wait for the mob to pop to see if anybody comes around. In my mind, it's a quick 6 minute spawn, and if someone other than the guy who is already holding the two spawn comes over, I have no problem yielding the camp (which is why I did the /who to see who really was in the zone at the time and I didn't get anybody gating back saying "hey this is my camp."). I can see now this is not the right approach and I should make my intentions clear from the jump. That being said...

This guy is sitting at the two giant camp and coming over into what is widely known as a separate camp and telling me to GTFO. Does he want to take the single spawn as his camp rather than the two spawn? Nope, he wants all three. This would not have been settled with an /ooc of me saying I was taking the camp, that would have just fast forwarded his tantrum about 4-5 minutes. Fragmented is a bully, and people giving him a pass for acting like this is a large part of the reason why we can see a pattern of this behavior across the server.

[Sacer]

I'm not sure I agree with the "GM included" part
...
Anyone who has any interest in understanding how camp rules works can either read the official server rules on the forum OR the slightly more detailed Camp Rules wiki page, and have all their questions answered.

The "GM included part" is there because different GMs can have a different ruling that's how obscure those rules are, I am not blaming the GM they do a great job overall, and no you cannot find a definitive answer from those links you gave.

Like the Frenzy camp in velk some people consider it 4 differents camp, some just 1 camp, for some it's 3 camps, almost everyone got a different opinion on that one and I'm pretty sure it's the same for the GMs.

[indiscriminate_hater]

https://i.imgur.com/sdleA9t.png

[loramin]

This guy is sitting at the two giant camp and coming over into what is widely known as a separate camp and telling me to GTFO. Does he want to take the single spawn as his camp rather than the two spawn? Nope, he wants all three. This would not have been settled with an /ooc of me saying I was taking the camp, that would have just fast forwarded his tantrum about 4-5 minutes. Fragmented is a bully, and people giving him a pass for acting like this is a large part of the reason why we can see a pattern of this behavior across the server.

I wasn't there and it's in the past, so I won't speculate about it. All I'm saying is in the future if a mob isn't up, you should assume it's not your's.

Maybe the person is at some completely different camp, half a zone away ... but even so, it's not unreasonable for someone to kill two mobs (or two camps of mobs) when no one else is killing them. Maybe there's valuable NPC X (eg. Soothsayer in Droga), and after I kill them I have nothing better to do so I go kill some less valuable NPC Y (goblin bodyguard post-nerf) while I wait.

Just because I went to kill Y (when no one else was), it doesn't mean I want to give up X. If, in order to keep X, I had to sit and wait for him to respawn (not killing anything else), that would suck.

Thus, the camp rules don't say that. In fact, they don't even matter at all until someone new shows up and communicates with the person currently doing the camp. That's on purpose: since the first person is allowed to leave mob X to kill mob Y, and thus can't know that a new person arrived, the burden is on the new person to see that X is down and thus understand that it's likely claimed.

That newcomer should assume (unless the mob is Fippy Darkpaw) that it didn't kill itself, and so when it respawns (and for a short while after) by the server rules it will be someone else's.

[kaizersoze]

You think the ice giant camp is bad, just look at the dickheads that will purposefully get in your way at Drusella. Knowing its camped. FDd right in your damn way of pulling. And wont just fuck off and do something else.

[loramin]

The "GM included part" is there because different GMs can have a different ruling that's how obscure those rules are, I am not blaming the GM they do a great job overall, and no you cannot find a definitive answer from those links you gave.

Like the Frenzy camp in velk some people consider it 4 differents camp, some just 1 camp, for some it's 3 camps, almost everyone got a different opinion on that one and I'm pretty sure it's the same for the GMs.

Ah, I understand now. Absolutely.

The camp rules may say zone X is a dungeon and thus can have "camps" of multiple mobs, and it will even say that usually a camp is defined as a group of mobs in line of sight of each other, but not in line of sight of other mobs ... but even so they don't say the specific exceptions to that "usually", nor do they say where where any given camp starts/stops (except for the specific cases they've ruled on in the forums, which are listed on the Camp Rules page). That's entirely up to the individual GM.

And just as (more?) importantly, what if you forget that the staff is volunteering their time to let you have conflict resolution in your free video game, and you're rude to the staff? It won't matter how good of a rules lawyer you are or how certain you are that you followed the rules to the letter: you'll get what the GM feels you deserve, and it probably won't be good.

[Nuggie]

Loramin, what is your retainer? Going to need a say camp rule lawyer about 2 weeks into Green at EE camp.

[Nuggie]

Say was "savvy" before my phone corrected.

[loramin]

Loramin, what is your retainer? Going to need a savvy camp rule lawyer about 2 weeks into Green at EE camp.

I'm like a law school grad who never passed the bar: you don't want me. You need a good lawer ...

https://i.imgur.com/aHn4m3Q.jpg

[Wonkie]

Banditos > Lawlyers

[d3r14k]

Banditos > Lawlyers

Why not both? A lawrito.

"M'senorita..."
https://i.imgur.com/aCBuSgw.png

[Rang]

One time I got extremely upset about rights to slay an ice giant in an emulation Of late 90s fantasy guild

[NegaStoat]

Sounds to me like you knew someone else was camping it since it wasn't up when you got there, and instead of asking if they would concede the camp, you just sat down and took it.

While i agree that the dude is out of line with thinking its his camp, you were the one who started the whole thing by essentially stealing the camp before it was conceded.

Long story short, you're both in the wrong, and you're both idiots.

This. If you arrive to a camp of multiple mobs in an outdoor location and one or more of them appear to be camped, it's up to you to say hello to the camper and find out what's up, and negotiate. I completely agree that if you arrive to a camp and there's full spawns up, and they stay up for a while, calling out a CC can go eff itself. Start killing.

But what you're describing was not the case.

[NegaStoat]

https://i.imgur.com/truHHY8.gif

You are a blessing to this thread.

[bodenn]

OP's name Okcoolman is ruining my immersion. Plus he is a butt-hole.

[Not_Mikeo]

You think the ice giant camp is bad, just look at the dickheads that will purposefully get in your way at Drusella. Knowing its camped. FDd right in your damn way of pulling. And wont just fuck off and do something else.

Lol at your anger spilling into other RnF threads. Maybe try ten hours of deep breathing exercises instead of 10 hours of fending off the DS camp from randos logging on to check if its camped.

[aaezil]

“You Tyerrrrk Mah Giant!!!”

[aaezil]

Also yeah someone change Okcoolmans name in game as its violating the naming policy thanks

Also why is a lvl 60 wiz camping ice gisnts? The petty coin lol?

[Maliant]

Almost everyone agrees Ice Giant camps are two in the front or one in the bank. You can camp all three if you are the only one obviously. If someone else shows up they can take the back one. It's an outdoor zone so technically someone is only "entitled" to one spawn. In practice it almost always operates as I described in the opening sentence.

[gundumbwing]

Giants. This thread is about giants.

/sigh

[Nuggie]

Also yeah someone change Okcoolmans name in game as its violating the naming policy thanks

Also why is a lvl 60 wiz camping ice gisnts? The petty coin lol?

I was wondering the same about the 60 wiz. Seriously WTF? City guards have to be better cash. Porting people is better cash. When I left I was tripping 100PP for a port, or much more if they had to run away from the rings/spires.

[LostCause]

I mean, you're objectively wrong by established rules surrounding how camps work. And I hardly see how it is my responsibility to track down whomever killed a mob at a vacant camp. And is the subsequent KS of two giants before retreating to his two camp something you side with as well?

you really crying over a fucking ice giant camp? normal person would just move on..

wonder who the child is.

[azeth]

You think the ice giant camp is bad, just look at the dickheads that will purposefully get in your way at Drusella. Knowing its camped. FDd right in your damn way of pulling. And wont just fuck off and do something else.

How does them FDing in a pull path affect you?

[Raev]

GMs, can we please change this player's name 'Ok Cool, Man' which is ruining my immersion.

[Legday]

loramin, I appreciate what you are trying to say, and I 100% agree with you that I should either give an /ooc that I am contesting a vacant camp or just wait for the mob to pop to see if anybody comes around. In my mind, it's a quick 6 minute spawn, and if someone other than the guy who is already holding the two spawn comes over, I have no problem yielding the camp (which is why I did the /who to see who really was in the zone at the time and I didn't get anybody gating back saying "hey this is my camp."). I can see now this is not the right approach and I should make my intentions clear from the jump. That being said...

This guy is sitting at the two giant camp and coming over into what is widely known as a separate camp and telling me to GTFO. Does he want to take the single spawn as his camp rather than the two spawn? Nope, he wants all three. This would not have been settled with an /ooc of me saying I was taking the camp, that would have just fast forwarded his tantrum about 4-5 minutes. Fragmented is a bully, and people giving him a pass for acting like this is a large part of the reason why we can see a pattern of this behavior across the server.

OP stop acting like you didn't know what was going on. It doesn't take a seasoned rule aficionado to know that you didn't handle this honestly. Anybody capable of deductive reasoning would have seen the IG you showed up at was dead, seen the other 2 had a player killing/sitting near them, and been 99% sure that the same guy was killing all 3.

From that point, regardless of how sure you were about who killed the IF less than 6 minutes ago, you had 2 options:

1)Reach out to him proactively and ask for 1 of the camps. If you wanted to cite the rules on what constitutes a camp AFTER he said no, you'd be in the right.

2)Kill the mob quickly when it pops and deal with the fallout while citing the rules.

You consciously opted for #2. You know it. Fragmented knew it. Everybody in this thread knows it. Any GM that showed up would have seen it and lectured you on the PNP because you didn't handle it honestly.

[Immok]

Almost everyone agrees Ice Giant camps are two in the front or one in the bank. You can camp all three if you are the only one obviously. If someone else shows up they can take the back one. It's an outdoor zone so technically someone is only "entitled" to one spawn. In practice it almost always operates as I described in the opening sentence.

Shocker

[Lordgordon]

Wtb ice giants toez 200p ea.. send tells to offdaheezy

[kjs86z]

Is there good profit in making Wort Pots?

Maybe Frag has a shaman and instead of sitting in EC trying to buy toes he was out farming for them + some extra vendor cash on the side?

[hotkarlmarxbros]

OP stop acting like you didn't know what was going on. It doesn't take a seasoned rule aficionado to know that you didn't handle this honestly. Anybody capable of deductive reasoning would have seen the IG you showed up at was dead, seen the other 2 had a player killing/sitting near them, and been 99% sure that the same guy was killing all 3.

From that point, regardless of how sure you were about who killed the IF less than 6 minutes ago, you had 2 options:

1)Reach out to him proactively and ask for 1 of the camps. If you wanted to cite the rules on what constitutes a camp AFTER he said no, you'd be in the right.

2)Kill the mob quickly when it pops and deal with the fallout while citing the rules.

You consciously opted for #2. You know it. Fragmented knew it. Everybody in this thread knows it. Any GM that showed up would have seen it and lectured you on the PNP because you didn't handle it honestly.

Look man, I just sat down and decided to take what I understood to be a separate camp knowing that other players need to commit to a single camp. I figured it would be no big deal and he would yield to me now that I was on it. There was no malicious anticipation of drama in my mind, I just lazily figured that because those are the rules, that is how it would go down. So as far as "everybody knowing it," read into that what you will. I've been forthright with how the entire situation went down to the best of my ability, including indicating that the mob was not there where I arrived.

The reason I brought it here was 1) he came off like an abrasive dick, 2) he tried to bully me off of what would rightfully be my camp, and 3) he claimed what he was killing constituted a single camp which was either an outright lie or, at best, greed fueled ignorance.

Now, also according to the consensus here, instead of sitting at the camp and assuming it was then mine because...the other was his, I should have talked it out. In hindsight, I agree 100% and I owe Fragmented an apology for my behavior. In the future I will make sure to address any camp concerns over contested mobs prior to just assuming "hey this is mine because that is yours." I mean this sincerely, and the next time I see Fragmented I will apologize.

[Ravager]

Norrath is big. If the shit's already camped, just go find something else to do. A Cracked Staff and a Sapphire amount to the same worthless thing in the long run.

[Convict]

backfire threads are the best

[Gumbo]

I'm sure others have already replied but in most cases if someone is camping all 3 Ice Giants, they will usually give up the back Ice Giant and keep the front two Ice Giants.

It sounds to me that he got all bitchy because he didn't know if you took an Ice Toe from him or not and cost him 30-50 platinum. Any level 60 camping Ice Giants is just there to farm Ice Toes...

[NegaStoat]

In hindsight, I agree 100% and I owe Fragmented an apology for my behavior. In the future I will make sure to address any camp concerns over contested mobs prior to just assuming "hey this is mine because that is yours." I mean this sincerely, and the next time I see Fragmented I will apologize.

The thread started off wonky but ended with the right ending. Good job. Now, if only Bvmmey could have confessed his sin and admitted that yes, the Book was up.

[Jimjam]

I only read the first post, but is the TLDR of the thread:

OP claims server is filled of people with communication problems, and 'mine' attitudes.

OP sees someone camping ice giants.

OP decides one of the ice giants is ["mine"], without any communication?

Ten thousand spoons!

[applesauce25r624]

this one makes the backfire thread list

[Mblake81]

https://i.imgur.com/6mHF0mI.gif

[Convict]

lol nice gif

[albinoninja]

was gunna let this die as it should but had to correct an error in the OP

I dont know Scrody, I never met scrody before this incident. he seemed like a personable Lizard so i would like to make sure he is in no way associated with this incident. He was just a random guy that popped in. He isn't my buddy (though he could be)so if you think i am a douche due to this post don't take it out on him. Thanks you.

[albinoninja]

oh and ^ Fragmented :P

[hotkarlmarxbros]

was gunna let this die as it should but had to correct an error in the OP

I dont know Scrody, I never met scrody before this incident. he seemed like a personable Lizard so i would like to make sure he is in no way associated with this incident. He was just a random guy that popped in. He isn't my buddy (though he could be)so if you think i am a douche due to this post don't take it out on him. Thanks you.

Yeah, the consensus seems to be that I am the douche. Sorry for storming in on your camp, man.

[albinoninja]

now we know, and knowing is half the battle!! GO JOE!!!!

[eezl]

I want in on this RnF lovefest.

[heyokah]

Not reading this shit. Just wanna tell my grandkids I was in the Ice Giants in 2019 thread.

[Awweshux]

" I figure we are all adults here and aware of camp rules. " Never AssUme. It makes and Ass out of U and Me. Case in point. OP is wrong.

[Acidreams]

Wish people wouldnt write long arguements just stick to the aimless one liners pls its more entertaining

[Swish2]

Wish people wouldnt write long arguements just stick to the aimless one liners pls its more entertaining

Not in the above case, however.

[Heywood]

This is why I could never play on blue.

"You killed my mob"

"No, you killed my mob"

"No, u"

[Chortles Snort|eS]

sound liek u got in trouBle

[Chortles Snort|eS]

for playing game!

[Dark_Magic]

If he was successfully keeping all 3 spawns down before respawns, then he was successfully camping all 3 spawns. You are the entitled one showing up expecting mobs.

Doesn't matter what the LoS server rules are IMO. That's childish lawyerquesting bullshit. If someone is clearly camping a set of mobs, go find something else to do. It's a big server. Disrupting someone's camp just because you want their mobs is a retarded thing to do.

[bomaroast]

Server rules are that you have to share. If you're camping multiple PHs and someone wants in, you have to share. Thems the rules. I think they're good.

[Patriam1066]

Sounds like you tried to rule-lawyer him out of a camp, but you fucked up and broke server rules yourself. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.



Case closed

[Jadian]

Three year olds whose vocabulary consists only of the word "MINE!" and nothing else.

Here is the situation: Fragmented is killing all three ice giants outside of permafrost. Great. He can have the two spawn, now that I'm here, I will take the single spawn. I assume this goes without saying because these are two separate camps as there is nowhere you could sit maintaining LOS on all three mobs (which I could be mistaken, please correct me if I'm wrong). After killing the single spawn we come back to a bit of an outburst.

outburst (https://imgur.com/jjzOc0W)

After stating this, his buddy Scrody shows up and sits at the two spawn and he plops down next to me at the single spawn, ready to nuke down the ice giant when he pops:

situation (https://imgur.com/O0DHfm6)

As there are no GMs on, I humbly submit this to RnF in hopes of getting some clarification. Are all three ice giants a single camp making me the asshole here? Or is the single spawn a separate camp and Fragmented is in the wrong?


You learned the only real lesson necessary for this server via this incident or via this thread.... this community is cancer.

[shuklak]

OP is reason we have a more cumbersome rulebook than Obamacare.

Thanks op for p99acare.