Hugs and Kisses XOXO

[lookitsjb]

Read a lot of the stuffs after last night's shenanigans with ToV Repops. Shitty situations all around which is why I'm doing my first actual post here. Sorry to say this isn't going to be a standard Rant, nor flame.

Concessions seem to be quite literally a garbage concept in their current implementation. As some people have posted; it ultimately yields one of two responses:

1) You know your guild is doing shady shit, but you'll just concede the next one (or two) mobs and be done with it
2) You do shady shit, knowing if/when you do have to concede, you rarely go for/get that mob anyways, so no sweat off your sack

What if concessions were still in play, just implemented slightly differently?

If your guild is caught violating a server/player agreement and are required to concede a target, then the concession is only valid if your guild still pulls/kills the target. The guild who was impacted by the concession is awarded the loot rights and the terms of the concession are then met.

It's a high-level concept, and quite frankly could possibly be pure dog-shit, but every week is the same with no progress; Guild vs Guild drama with no actual resolution or strive to make this game that we all play a bit more enjoyable for all.

[loramin]

I think there are lots ... LOTS of ideas on how to fix the raid scene.

But unless:


the players organize and agree on something ... which is extremely unlikely to happen, since the current system benefits a large block of players, and they have no reason to switch to a system that results in them getting less loot (ie. every other system)
the staff imposes something from on top ... also extremely unlikely, now that it's come out that Rogean is heavily invested in preserving the current system


your ideas are just that: worthless ideas. Just like mine or anyone else's (this is just as true for my pet fix, rotations, as it is for any other).

Now let the 20-page thread arguing over those pointless ideas begin :)

[loramin]

I should caveat that something probably is going to change; my point is more that any discussion of how it should change here will likely have zero impact on what actually changes.

[Nexii]

More than one guild can be impacted. This only works if 2 guilds are competing.

Yea the concept of concessions is flawed but there isn't an alternative that really works. If anything its a play field balancer, guilds that compete harder are more impacted by conceding future mobs

Better is to take a higher view, what kind of game changes could go in that would
A) keep raiding competitive
B) reduce the opportunities to break the rules

Currently with the pull meta rule breaking happens all the time. And more often than not it's accidental, not on purpose

[loramin]

Yea the concept of concessions is flawed but there isn't an alternative that really works.

Nexii, you strike me as a pretty smart person. Are you seriously saying that, as smart as you are, you are unable to imagine any possible raid scene without "accidents" and concessions?

[Nexii]

Nexii, you strike me as a pretty smart person. Are you seriously saying that, as smart as you are, you are unable to imagine any possible raid scene without "accidents" and concessions?

It would be less if the raid targets were rooted. You'd have guilds more spread out over Velious / TOV. Clearing trash would take time as well, even if you COTH close it will be slower than the current solo pull meta. Yea there would be leapfrog races but generally you wouldn't want to risk the 50/50 chance of a mob over a 100% chance to get something for sure

Not the end of the world if its a little more effort. Server has tons of warmbodies -- probably 10x more than any live server would have had in era

[loramin]

It would be less if the raid targets were rooted. You'd have guilds more spread out over Velious / TOV. Clearing trash would take time as well, even if you COTH close it will be slower than the current solo pull meta. Yea there would be leapfrog races but generally you wouldn't want to risk the 50/50 chance of a mob over a 100% chance to get something for sure

Not the end of the world if its a little more effort. Server has tons of warmbodies -- probably 10x more than any live server would have had in era

Or rotations. Or one of fifteen hundred other ideas.

Look P99 having more people than live had absolutely is the core of the problem, but still I really think you're smarter than just "keep Aftermath dominating everything, or keep Aftermath dominating everything but root the dragons". But maybe because of those smarts you're not being honest?

I just can't believe you really can only see a single viable option to the current system.

[Quizlop]

TBH, I think they should just remove all raid rules for NToV.

Allow train wars, camping on spawn spots, DPS sniping, etc.

Have them experience the chaos of complete anarchy, so that they will be forced to compromise on rules for their own benefit. It's embarrasing that so many adults need to be babysat while playing their elf game.

[Danth]

You said it yourself Loramin, whatever proposal you might make remains a moot discussion unless you can get the admins onboard.

Danth

[loramin]

You said it yourself Loramin, whatever proposal you might make remains a moot discussion unless you can get the admins onboard.

Danth

Yup, and since evidently "the admins" don't interact with the P99 playerbase anymore (Nilbog's recent post about that shield you can wear on your back being the exception that proves the rule), the only path to doing that is to convince the staff that does "have it's ear to the ground" ... and then hope they can convince Rogean ...

... except that, thanks to Brarknar, we now have strong evidence that even that's impossible.

In other words, it's moot discussion. Period. End of sentence.

But that won't stop it from happening :)

[loramin]

thanks to Brarknar

Fuck, Braknar, Would it really ruin RnF if we had 30 seconds to edit posts?

[Nexii]

Or rotations. Or one of fifteen hundred other ideas.

Look P99 having more people than live had absolutely is the core of the problem, but still I really think you're smarter than just "keep Aftermath dominating everything, or keep Aftermath dominating everything but root the dragons". But maybe because of those smarts you're not being honest?

I just can't believe you really can only see a single viable option to the current system.

Rotations are boring, and so is the pull everything to zone line meta. Combining the two would make EQ hardly feel like a game to me

[loramin]

The current system is so boring it'd be hard for any change to make it less boring. In your guild, out of a typical ToV force, how many people actually "compete" in the "non-boring" part? The rest just sit their "bored", right?

And even the competitors, they stare at walls, or duck CotHs, or whatever for hours: that's not boring?

Last I checked we all came to play EverQuest. Rotations prioritize that and eliminate all the boring stuff.

[loramin]

P.S. And regardless, like I said there are fifteen hundred other ideas besides "keep the current system" and "rotate". You have to be an idiot (and again, I don't think you are) or dishonest to claim you truly can't see any other viable alternatives.

[Sonderbeast]

I vote raising the drop rate in wtov so there are less raiders and more WAIDERS

[Heebs13]

I agree with Nexii pretty strongly on pretty much all of their points. Raids are boring as shit right now (except for watching shitshows when they happen), and would be even more boring with a rotation. There are a dozen servers with instances and a dozen other MMOs with them. Making raid bosses summon at 100% health would do all the things Nexii said. Wouldn't be a perfect world but would be 1000x better than what we have now, and I've been a vocal proponent of it for years. They rooted and gave them call of the zero on live anyway so I don't even know what the argument against it is other than coding is too much work.

[Nexii]

Majority of the raid scene doesn't want rotations. The community and staff consensus is that pixels should be earned, not doled out by staff. You do understand that a rotation won't be less work for the GMs. They'd be dealing with complaints daily about who should and shouldn't be in the rotation. The favoritism complaints would be much, much more. You'd have guilds getting spots that are inactive, like Clue with Plane of Sky.

The viable alternative is to unwind a lot of the needlessly complex raid rules. Sirken meant well but he created a tangled mess of complex rules that in the end benefitted the most hardcore guilds the most. I don't think this was intentional, but it was the outcome.

The raid rules should be more intuitive for a new player. For example, why aren't we allowed to camp out on a raid mob? This has never been answered when for every non-raid mob in the game, this is standard operating procedure.

[DMN]

They should randomly delete players over level 50 entering TOV. it solves the TOV problem by making it far less desirable of a place to go, and solves the over saturation of higher leveled players, too.

I'm fucking genius. Give me my GM account w/e.

[Nexii]

Another example being why isn't COTH allowed in VP? A lot of these rules...no one even knows why they exist any more. They just are...because?

[loramin]

Majority of the raid scene doesn't want rotations.

Did you do a survey or something? You're just revealing your own ignorance by assuming the whole server wants what Aftermath wants (or what RnF wants, or even what the forums want).

You do understand that a rotation won't be less work for the GMs.

You do understand that just because you put "You do understand" in front of something that doesn't make it true? Rotations would mean no more "competition", and that "competition" is the root of all petitions. Once the rotations were in place they would require virtually no GM effort whatsoever.

And, as I have mentioned before, they could require even less effort if the staff made the players police themselves. For instance, the guild that currently has ToV for the week could be responsible for observing whatever "gatekeeper" mob is needed to let a new guild join the rotation.

And finally I'll remind you that I've been asking how someone so smart could fail to come up with even a single viable alternative to the current system. And you keep failing to suggest even one.

Either the current system is perfect (:rolleyes:), or you're an idiot (and again, I don't think you are), or ... you're refusing to admit that there are plenty of viable alternatives, but you don't like them because they would mean Aftermath has to share more of their pixels with others.

[loramin]

P.S. If "most ot the server doesn't want rotations", why have we had a very successful one for years in Sky?

[Heebs13]

Did you do a survey or something? You're just revealing your own ignorance by assuming the whole server wants what Aftermath wants (or what RnF wants, or even what the forums want).



You do understand that just because you put "You do understand" in front of something that doesn't make it true? Rotations would mean no more "competition", and that "competition" is the root of all petitions. Once the rotations were in place they would require virtually no GM effort whatsoever.

And, as I have mentioned before, they could require even less effort if the staff made the players police themselves. For instance, the guild that currently has ToV for the week could be responsible for observing whatever "gatekeeper" mob is needed to let a new guild join the rotation.

And finally I'll remind you that I've been asking how someone so smart could fail to come up with even a single viable alternative to the current system. And you keep failing to suggest even one.

Either the current system is perfect (:rolleyes:), or you're an idiot (and again, I don't think you are), or ... you're refusing to admit that there are plenty of viable alternatives, but you don't like them because they would mean Aftermath has to share more of their pixels with others.

He DID suggest a viable alternative - root the raid mobs.

[Nexii]

P.S. If "most ot the server doesn't want rotations", why have we had a very successful one for years in Sky?

Because no one cares enough about Sky to complain. Very different situation with TOV

[Heebs13]

I think the primary problem with changing the system is that everyone would actually get phat lewts since its easily obtainable with a 90+ man raid force if you had instances, rotations, etc. it would just be more people getting loot, not that anybody would actually struggle with clearing through and killing content.

If everyone got phat lewts, and there is no content added to the game ever presumably, than your change would result in a circle jerk of phat lewts to a bitter end of stagnation as everyone quickly achieved end game. In AMs defense, it truly would be the end of any novelty in being end game geared.

The only real benefit i see to rotations or instancing or rooting mobs is that we could actually raid again and do something more than look at your corner. Currently the only real skill happening in game is FTE and pullers(mostly pullers). The rest of us just sit there and watch netflix waiting. Thats not what raiding in everquest ever was. That still wouldnt solve the stagnation problem, though, and in fact would probably speed it up on an already inevitable track.

tl:dr If the devs are truly no longer interested adding content, thats pretty much all that needs to be said right?

Pretty much nail on head here.

The way things are right now, the first guild to check the following 3 boxes gets the mob:


Did you get FTE?
Did you get the mob clean into camp?
Is it a time of day where enough of your guild was able to log in to kill the mob?


If you had rotations, you can remove boxes 1 and 3 off of this list. Your guild's turn would come up, you'd zone into ToV at the time of your choosing, and then 90% of your raid force would sit there staring at a wall for hours while your pullers brought the bosses in one at a time. And then for 9 weeks you just wouldn't raid. ISN'T THAT FUN?!

If, instead, we rooted the raid bosses and/or made them summon at 100%, you would be racing against other guilds and the success of your raid would depend on things like your raid's ability to kill trash faster, or your ability to handle a couple of adds, or your ability to rez the dead quickly and continue moving, or your ability to keep the healers from going OOM, you know, PLAYING THE ACTUAL GAME. Not only that, but because you A) have to wait for the boss to spawn to start clearing and B) can't engage two bosses at once, one guild, let's call them Before English, couldn't monopolize all the content because while they're busy clearing to one boss, another guild could be clearing to another boss, and so on and so forth.

It is crazy to me that we are still arguing about rotations when so many people have come out and said they would hate them, and not about rooting raid bosses when I have yet to really hear any solid arguments against it.

[loramin]

I think the primary problem with changing the system is that everyone would actually get phat lewts since its easily obtainable with a 90+ man raid force if you had instances, rotations, etc. it would just be more people getting loot, not that anybody would actually struggle with clearing through and killing content.

If everyone got phat lewts, and there is no content added to the game ever presumably, than your change would result in a circle jerk of phat lewts to a bitter end of stagnation as everyone quickly achieved end game. In AMs defense, it truly would be the end of any novelty in being end game geared.

The only real benefit i see to rotations or instancing or rooting mobs is that we could actually raid again and do something more than look at your corner. Currently the only real skill happening in game is FTE and pullers(mostly pullers). The rest of us just sit there and watch netflix waiting. Thats not what raiding in everquest ever was. That still wouldnt solve the stagnation problem, though, and in fact would probably speed it up on an already inevitable track.

tl:dr If the devs are truly no longer interested adding content, thats pretty much all that needs to be said right?

This is one of my chief frustrations with trying to have this conversation: people (sometimes willfully, sometimes not) misunderstand, and jump to insane conclusions. Absolutely nothing about this is true:

everyone would actually get phat lewts since its easily obtainable with a 90+ man raid force if you had instances, rotations, etc. it would just be more people getting loot, not that anybody would actually struggle with clearing through and killing content.

No, it's not easy to get a 90+ man force! It's incredibly difficult, and there's a reason we only have one on the server!

Plus, even with rotations it's absolutely not true that everyone would be getting loot. Rotations don't magically make more dragons and pixels: all they do is change the distribution. Instead of (say) 80% of Dragon X's loot going to guild A, and 10% to guilds B and C, 10% would go to each of guilds A-J ... but still, only IF they can even kill Dragon X.

Which leads me to the most important point: the entire point of the game we're all supposed to be playing is that it's a challenge to organize a group of people to kill a dragon. The top guilds regularly taunt each other for screwing up and wiping to "easy" dragons with a hundred people. The actual challenge of the game itself has to be overcome and that is not easy.

So let's talk about the reality, not fantasy (ironic I know). If rotations happened everyone would not be walking around in BiS gear. Every player on the server would not be checking Yelinak off their bucket list. Only the guilds big enough (or in big enough alliances) and capable enough at actually slaying dragons would have some few members with epic dragon loot. But those dragon loots, and the hours of raid experience in killing those dragons, would be spread out (yes, shared!) between a much larger number of guilds and players.

[Nexii]

Did you do a survey or something? You're just revealing your own ignorance by assuming the whole server wants what Aftermath wants (or what RnF wants, or even what the forums want).

No, it's based on that AG and Core didn't want a rotation either when it was posted by Braknar. Which is really the majority of guilds that care to try to compete. BG/PS I'm not sure on. But I think the sentiment there is that they just want to be able to viably go for a few targets a week. The other guilds, well honestly I don't think they care too much about top end bosses. They're content mostly just doing content like HoT, West ToV, Kael arena, plate house, north flurries, etc.

[Vallaen]

AM, AG and Core/BG can pull together a good size force.

I am sorry Anonymous isn't able to field a raid force to compare or chooses to not even try.

[loramin]

Ultimately I reject the whole "the game itself doesn't matter" mentality. We are here to play game, that's the entire point. And unless I'm mistaken the purpose of the whoie project is to enable just that: lots of people getting together to play a fun old game.

Rotations enable far more people to play the game: they let P99 do what it does better. And you know what having them, for one zone, would cost? Far, far less headaches for the staff and the "competitors' on this server having to "compete" PvE style ... like people did back on live.

[loramin]

I am sorry Anonymous isn't able to field a raid force to compare or chooses to not even try.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Anonymous and everything to do with my opinion, personally, as a player of this server for about five years now.

[Heebs13]

This is one of my chief frustrations with trying to have this conversation: people (sometimes willfully, sometimes not) misunderstand, and jump to insane conclusions. Absolutely nothing about this is true:



No, it's not easy to get a 90+ man force! It's incredibly difficult, and there's a reason we only have one on the server!

Plus, even with rotations it's absolutely not true that everyone would be getting loot. Rotations don't magically make more dragons and pixels: all they do is change the distribution. Instead of (say) 80% of Dragon X's loot going to guild A, and 10% to guilds B and C, 10% would go to each of guilds A-J ... but still, only IF they can even kill Dragon X.

Which leads me to the most important point: the entire point of the game we're all supposed to be playing is that it's a challenge to organize a group of people to kill a dragon. The top guilds regularly taunt each other for screwing up and wiping to "easy" dragons with a hundred people. The actual challenge of the game itself has to be overcome and that is not easy.

So let's talk about the reality, not fantasy (ironic I know). If rotations happened everyone would not be walking around in BiS gear. Every player on the server would not be checking Yelinak off their bucket list. Only the guilds big enough (or in big enough alliances) and capable enough at actually slaying dragons would have some few members with epic dragon loot. But those dragon loots, and the hours of raid experience in killing those dragons, would be spread out (yes, shared!) between a much larger number of guilds and players.

Loramin I'm sorry bud but you're just wrong on this one. There's really nothing all that difficult about killing 90% of the top bosses in P99. You do not need 90 people to kill a dragon - most of them can be killed with 20 to 30 people and are killed with that many people every single week on red. Outside of Vyemm, AoW, Ring War, and Tunare, you can kill pretty much every boss on this server with 35 people. The only difficult part that top guilds screw up is getting the mobs solo into camp before the other guild does. If you had a rotation that wouldn't even be a thing - you would just bring the mob into camp at your leisure and kill it. Your guild might get a big hurrah the very first time you do it because it's the very first time you did it, but every dragon after that is going to get more and more boring. Everquest Scars of Velious did NOT master in 2001 what makes MMO raiding fun. It was novel at the time but it's boring and grueling and what we have now is an even more bastardized version of it. You might think you want what you're asking for, but you really don't.

[loramin]

You do not need 90 people to kill a dragon - most of them can be killed with 20 to 30 people and are killed with that many people every single week on red.

No of course you don't. That was me replying to a slight misreading of his post (I read it as "it's easy to get a 90+ force together to get loot").

Everquest Scars of Velious did NOT master in 2001 what makes MMO raiding fun. It was novel at the time but it's boring and grueling and what we have now is an even more bastardized version of it. You might think you want what you're asking for, but you really don't.

Of course not! But for all you're posturing, you're passionately defending a game. Why? If the game is so easy, there'd be no fun to it. There'd be no reason to play.

Is it for the social aspect? Aftermath is such a fun bunch and that 90+ person chat room just can't be beat anywhere else? I doubt it.

I think, you're making one claim, that the game is pointless and easy, when it suits you, while at the same time desperately fighting to keep getting to play that pointless and easy game more than anyone else.

[Nexii]

Ultimately I reject the whole "the game itself doesn't matter" mentality. We are here to play game, that's the entire point. And unless I'm mistaken the purpose of the whoie project is to enable just that: lots of people getting together to play a fun old game.

Rotations enable far more people to play the game: they let P99 do what it does better. And you know what having them, for one zone, would cost? Far, far less headaches for the staff and the "competitors' on this server having to "compete" PvE style ... like people did back on live.

Well that's where you're wrong. EQ was never about giving a participation trophy to everyone for just playing. That was the very appeal of it to hardcore gamers.

[loramin]

Well that's where you're wrong. EQ was never about giving a participation trophy to everyone for just playing. That was the very appeal of it to hardcore gamers.

Allow me to re-quote my own post for you:

Ultimately I reject the whole "the game itself doesn't matter" mentality. We are here to play game, that's the entire point. And unless I'm mistaken the purpose of the whoie project is to enable just that: lots of people getting together to play a fun old game.

Rotations enable far more people to play the game: they let P99 do what it does better. And you know what having them, for one zone, would cost? Far, far less headaches for the staff and the "competitors' on this server having to "compete" PvE style ... like people did back on live.

It's funny, I never said anything about participation trophies anywhere. I never said anything about "softcore gamers" killing Yelinak either. Maybe I didn't because nothing about rotations in any way guarantees "participation trophies", and there's nothing "hardcore" about the current system.

If anything Aftermath is the biggest giver of "participation trophies" on the server. To the vast majority of your membership that's what the loot is about: their warm body shows up, and they get some loot.

It's almost like you completely disingenuously claimed to disagree with me while actually disagreeing with a total straw man.

[Heebs13]

No of course you don't. That was me replying to a slight misreading of his post (I read it as "it's easy to get a 90+ force together to get loot").



Of course not! But for all you're posturing, you're passionately defending a game. Why? If the game is so easy, there'd be no fun to it. There'd be no reason to play.

Is it for the social aspect? Aftermath is such a fun bunch and that 90+ person chat room just can't be beat anywhere else? I doubt it.

I think, you're making one claim, that the game is pointless and easy, when it suits you, while at the same time desperately fighting to keep getting to play that pointless and easy game more than anyone else.

On the contrary, I've been pretty consistent in my complaints about the current raid scene and you can browse through my post history to prove it. My point is that making a rotation would preserve some of the worst parts of p99's raids while eliminating the only things that currently make it any fun. Rooting the raid mobs would preserve the thing the top guilds want - competition, while removing the stupid wall-staring train fest and opening up the zone to more guilds by virtue of the fact that clearing to bosses would take the bigger guilds longer than it currently does.

[Nexii]

On the contrary, I've been pretty consistent in my complaints about the current raid scene and you can browse through my post history to prove it. My point is that making a rotation would preserve some of the worst parts of p99's raids while eliminating the only things that currently make it any fun. Rooting the raid mobs would preserve the thing the top guilds want - competition, while removing the stupid wall-staring train fest and opening up the zone to more guilds by virtue of the fact that clearing to bosses would take the bigger guilds longer than it currently does.

Pretty much. The only thing other than this would be to have a 2nd blue or green server. There's not a lot that can be done about overpopulation, save for making every 7 day spawn a 3 day one. But that'd be 'unclassic'...

A classic server would have had 1, maybe 2 guilds of 50 endgame raiders. Here we have AM alone with more than that (~120). AG at 100. BG+PS at 100 (50 on their own). Core at 50. It's little wonder that guilds get shut out

[Foxplay]

Tldr , pixels

[Heebs13]

Pretty much. The only thing other than this would be to have a 2nd blue or green server. There's not a lot that can be done about overpopulation, save for making every 7 day spawn a 3 day one. But that'd be 'unclassic'...

A classic server would have had 1, maybe 2 guilds of 50 endgame raiders. Here we have AM alone with more than that (~120). AG at 100. BG+PS at 100 (50 on their own). Core at 50. It's little wonder that guilds get shut out

I think it would be pretty interesting if they did what games like Path of Exile do and just wipe the server and start over every X months. Would be fun racing to the top and not having to compete with every guild having 200 alts and 100 shared clerics and coth mages.

[Nexii]

I think it would be pretty interesting if they did what games like Path of Exile do and just wipe the server and start over every X months. Would be fun racing to the top and not having to compete with every guild having 200 alts and 100 shared clerics and coth mages.

The idea of Green p99 was that but over 3 years. I think if it was months, you'd have to have somewhat accelerated exp or faster raid spawns (or instances). Which is kinda more like TLP servers..

[lookitsjb]

Apologies for posting and then being a bit aloof; had some IRL shit to take care of (I know, how dare I!

The initial intent of this thread wasn't to go down a "what's best for ToV" or even restructure raiding in general. It was to work together to figure out how can we fix the clusterfuckery that is concessions.

Ultimately; you're 100% correct. In most cases, it isn't just 1 guild getting fucked over but if that's the case maybe some sort of round-robin style shit goes into play?

The main issue with concessions as it stands now is people can fuck up intentionally (or not) and just say "we'll stop going for the next few". This allows them to focus in other areas of the raid scene without worrying about that one mob, and also bears 0 value if it's a target that they don't normally get anyways.

Example from some RNF threads:
- AG kites statue and concedes two
- AM pulls Eashan with an active FTE on Lady N
- AG trains Dagarn mages and doesn't allow enough time for the mages to be "ready" for CotH and pulls anyways
- AM manipulates Yeli root to hold an FTE
- PSG kills Koi off of another guild's (AM) FTE

All of these concessions just mean the guild doesn't have to bother competing for the specific mob, and it was argued in the PSG-Koi and AG-Statue that "they don't even get enough where concessions matter". So why concede? Make it so they have to contest it and relinquish loot instead.

Side note though:
Yes. NToV is fucked and rooting would probably make it a lot more competitive/easier but I wonder how it would work considering the CT fuckery. One guild clears Fear and another snipes CT. You wouldn't need to be the best guild for the crawl you'd just need to be the fastest leap-frogger.
Also from reading Braknar's discord dump; The idea of Vulak only spawning when all dragons have spawned would be awesome as well.

[Heebs13]

NToV is fucked and rooting would probably make it a lot more competitive/easier but I wonder how it would work considering the CT fuckery. One guild clears Fear and another snipes CT. You wouldn't need to be the best guild for the crawl you'd just need to be the fastest leap-frogger.

Leapfrogging would be possible but there's a good chance while you're up there dicking around / stalemating with another guild over who is going to pull first, another dragon could spawn and now you're both DQed and another guild starts clearing to that. It's in everyone's best interest to clear towards a specific target as quickly as possible without any fuckery.

[lookitsjb]

Leapfrogging would be possible but there's a good chance while you're up there dicking around / stalemating with another guild over who is going to pull first, another dragon could spawn and now you're both DQed and another guild starts clearing to that. It's in everyone's best interest to clear towards a specific target as quickly as possible without any fuckery.

Again, not here to attempt to fix NToV, as I feel the raid scene (as a whole) is fucked due to simple rules being blatantly ignored and/or skewed via lawyer questing. Ultimately what you're asking for/discussing is a CSR/Dev level fix. What I'm bringing to this thread is a community level discussion about the player-agreement of mob concessions.

[Heebs13]

Again, not here to attempt to fix NToV, as I feel the raid scene (as a whole) is fucked due to simple rules being blatantly ignored and/or skewed via lawyer questing. Ultimately what you're asking for/discussing is a CSR/Dev level fix. What I'm bringing to this thread is a community level discussion about the player-agreement of mob concessions.

I'm struggling to think of how a concession system in which the conceding party had to give loot rights to the offended guild would even work.

What happens when there are 3 guilds present? Does the conceding guild have to give loot to both the other guilds from one kill? From two kills?

What happens if the conceding guild almost never gets to kill that mob anyway? They'd just... never kill it again, or take months to do so.

Ultimately what makes the concession system (sort of) work is the idea that if you don't concede a mob as per the rules, the threat of a raid ban hangs over your head. Implementing a new concession system as you're suggesting would require that same threat of enforcement and therefore a rule change, so in effect this is ALSO a CSR-level fix. If there was no threat of enforcement from the CSR staff, no one would do it.

And it doesn't fix the lawyerquesting; it just adds another layer of lawyerquesting. IMO if people want to get away from the 20 pages of elf law, the only way that's going to happen is by coding the solutions into the game. EQ was one of the first games of its kind so they didn't have a lot of this stuff ironed out back in 1999, but I'm sure you're aware that every expansion and every MMO that has come out since has addressed the problems of the genre not by server rules but by actual game design systems. Obviously, a lot of us here disagree with the instancing solution that took over most games, but the point remains that ultimately coding the game to prevent these types of issues in the first place is going to be the only way to really solve this sort of thing.

[Bboboo]

just play red

[beargryllz]

TBH, I think they should just remove all raid rules for NToV.

Allow train wars, camping on spawn spots, DPS sniping, etc.

Have them experience the chaos of complete anarchy, so that they will be forced to compromise on rules for their own benefit. It's embarrasing that so many adults need to be babysat while playing their elf game.

Finally someone else gets it

Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*

[Sunstar]

Finally someone else gets it

Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*Raid rules are *not classic*

Fixed it for you...

This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*This Server is *not classic*

[doormat00]

just play red

According to Braknar's reddit comments Red doesn't even get checked for RMT.

[Heebs13]

According to Braknar's reddit comments Red doesn't even get checked for RMT.

Maybe he wants more potential buyers.

[Daloon]

He DID suggest a viable alternative - root the raid mobs.

Yes please kill Lord Feshlak when rooted, without AAs, after clearing 1-2 hours of trash per dragon. It's as if some people never raided here.

[DMN]

This may sound strange given how MMORPGs are done now, but back in the day all the servers had different rules. Basically a GM would say X/Y was wrong/right and it would become standard on the server, but not all servers had the same rules.. That said, I'd guess the majoirty of servers worked on the DPS-wins model and usually had a general "hands off" type enforcement. But some of them did have really restrictive rules about raiding/training/causing other players grief in raid content. I'd also guess it was born out of laziness that most of them allowed a lot of chicanery.

[Phenyo]

oh look another thread about how to fix the raid scene from people that want it tailored to their individual tastes.

Didn't read and filed under trash

[Maliant]

The current system is so boring it'd be hard for any change to make it less boring. In your guild, out of a typical ToV force, how many people actually "compete" in the "non-boring" part? The rest just sit their "bored", right?

And even the competitors, they stare at walls, or duck CotHs, or whatever for hours: that's not boring?

Last I checked we all came to play EverQuest. Rotations prioritize that and eliminate all the boring stuff.

Loramin, I expected better of you.

[Aadill]

Oh look, rooted mobs!

[Heebs13]

Yes please kill Lord Feshlak when rooted, without AAs, after clearing 1-2 hours of trash per dragon. It's as if some people never raided here.

What was it you said earlier?

Oh yes, I believe it was 'get fukt'.

Enjoy your rooted raid bosses, and get fukt.

[k9quaint]

Yes please kill Lord Feshlak when rooted, without AAs, after clearing 1-2 hours of trash per dragon.


No you?

[loramin]

The rest just sit their "bored", right?

Loramin, I expected better of you.

I am truly shamed. I'll go find my Modern Literature degree and mail it back to my alma matter now :(

[indiscriminate_hater]

welfare pixels for some, tiny american flags for others

[Muggens]

Loramin mentioning his litterature degree, Check.

[mumpz]

thread currently irrelevant and should be archived thanks!

[Chardy]

/guildwar

[loramin]

Loramin mentioning his litterature degree, Check.

If you can find any use for it other than mentioning it in 20-year old elf sim forums, by all means please let me know. :)