P99 Sky Agreement - why its bad for the server

[Jokesteve]

What if your a raid guild who wants to do sky, but raids in the PM and not currently holding one of those PM slots?

As it stands now, if you're in a PM raid guild that is not the following: Paradigm Shift, Clue, Blood Guard, Azure Guard, Anonymous, The Second Sons, Kittens Who Say Meow or Hydra Alliance and you hold a standard 8am-5pm job you are never going to be able to raid sky on your own as a guild function.

Not to mention, if you're one of the unfortunate classes (ranger, monk, enc, mage, paladin) that have epic items in this zone you will now have to leave your guild and join one of the above if you don't want to pay a ridiculous MQ price, or hope your guild is friends with one of the above and hope the host guild does not have a player that already needs the item.

[Holyhawk]

There have definitely never been any epic bottlenecks on this server. These poor, poor people!

[Siberious]

What's your alternative? The reason sky is rotated is because there are limited keys and certain mobs need to be killed in certain orders/times, and ideally people corpse keys to raid the same day next week so you can have more guildies attend. Do you really want to race people for kills on islands and key like 8 people and then no one can proceed to next island?

I see your concern, but complaining without providing a viable alternative isn't constructive.

Also
1) Enchanter epic anyone can port up and loot the item off the table.
2) Paladin you can request from a guild to accommodate letting you pop the dude.
3) Ranger item likely rots a lot, you can always ask the guilds for an officer and discuss.
4) Monk epic you can buy the keys off of Key Master, and do it whenever. People sell Demon Fang MQs regularly that don't have sky slots, this shows it's possible.

Mage/Necro are the 2 valid points since it requires an actual sky quest. Provide a viable alternative if you want a good discussion, otherwise this is just gonna end up in RnF.

[Doil_Boil]

Also, some of those guilds may not have their sky slots for too much longer. I see one or two guild names that are slowly shrinking.

[Baylan295]

What if your a raid guild who wants to do sky, but raids in the PM and not currently holding one of those PM slots?

As it stands now, if you're in a PM raid guild that is not the following: Paradigm Shift, Clue, Blood Guard, Azure Guard, Anonymous, The Second Sons, Kittens Who Say Meow or Hydra Alliance and you hold a standard 8am-5pm job you are never going to be able to raid sky on your own as a guild function.

Not to mention, if you're one of the unfortunate classes (ranger, monk, enc, mage, paladin) that have epic items in this zone you will now have to leave your guild and join one of the above if you don't want to pay a ridiculous MQ price, or hope your guild is friends with one of the above and hope the host guild does not have a player that already needs the item.

I imagine if you approached any one of those 8 guilds’ leadership indicating you are working on Epic Piece X, and would like to join them for their slot in the foreseeable future while you work on it, you could come to a fair and equitable agreement about how that would be handled. None of those guilds is particularly interested in bottlenecking people’s epic pieces, and if you are contributing, I expect they would not mind letting you tag along and work on those pieces on a fair basis with their membership.

[loramin]

I think when people are frustrated they can have a bit of tunnel vision. OP you're looking at this purely from the point of view, as you said, of someone in:

a raid guild who wants to do sky, but raids in the PM and not currently holding one of those PM slots

But you have to understand a few basic facts:

1) the Plane of Sky has to be organized somehow: without a rotation even fewer people will get their epic parts, haste belts, etc., because there will literally be less of them being added to the server

2) it's very difficult to get fourteen guilds/alliances to agree on anything

3) Classic EQ (especially the P99 version) is a bitch. Just as a for instance, I had to farm 130k to buy Torpor (it was more expensive at the time). Would I have preferred to just win a copy in a raid? Of course! I naively joined my guild thinking that was a possibility. But when I learned the reality (that non one wins Torpor on raids) I did something I very much didn't want to do (farm 130k), and while it took awhile I eventually got what I wanted.

So, that's just the reality of Project 1999: all scarce popular resources are hard to get, and as a result often require doing things you don't want to do. Furthermore, when Sky is involved you have to contend with the fact that a fragile agreement was reached between fourteen different groups, and that agreement is essential for ensuring the most possible epic parts/haste belts/Shaman FD rings, etc.

But, my point in saying all that is not to end with "so suck it up." My point is, if you want to change things, you have to first understand why things are the way they are, and then you have to propose something better. And whatever you propose has to look better to everyone (or at least most people) ...

... not just the people in the one guild that was late to the party. Because even in the current system you do have options (pay for epics, join a Sky guild on their raid, get your guild to form an alliance with an existing Sky guild, etc.) that don't involve leaving your guild. So you have to do more than just say "hey EQ is hard for me and it'd be less hard if things changed", you have to suggest how the whole system could be change to be better for everyone. Not because "it's the right thing to do", but because you won't succeed in changing things otherwise.

If you can do that I think you'll have much more success.

[Jokesteve]

Epics are a big part of the complaint, but not the entire complaint. There are many more raid guilds, than there are slots on this list. Furthermore, not all raid guilds were consulted when this list was made.

Forced rotations, for the most part, are non-classic as well. As for 'showing up late to the party and wants things easier' really is laughable, not to turn this into rants and flames, but the two biggest supporters to post in here so far are members of guilds holding PM slots. Coincidence? not likely.

[Baylan295]

Epics are a big part of the complaint, but not the entire complaint. There are many more raid guilds, than there are slots on this list. Furthermore, not all raid guilds were consulted when this list was made.

Forced rotations, for the most part, are non-classic as well.

5/8 slots you discussed were apparently updated or selected on in the past 6 months. There are also currently 3 open slots. Did your guild take advantage of those opportunities and express interest in a Sky slot?

I haven’t been around here that long, but again, I bet that if you and your guild had a conversation with another guild’s leadership in a slot you would like to raid in, you could find an arrangement that works. I understand Clue has not been going up to sky every week recently - maybe they’d be interested in a joint raid.

[FungusTrooper]

Is your solution to just make it FFA?

[Jokesteve]

5/8 slots you discussed were apparently updated or selected on in the past 6 months. There are also currently 3 open slots. Did your guild take advantage of those opportunities and express interest in a Sky slot?

I haven’t been around here that long, but again, I bet that if you and your guild had a conversation with another guild’s leadership in a slot you would like to raid in, you could find an arrangement that works. I understand Clue has not been going up to sky every week recently - maybe they’d be interested in a joint raid.

That's the thing here, a raid guild that's capable of taking on sky shouldn't have to ask permission to raid in a zone that's uncontested in the first place. This very situation actually resulted in a guild getting raid banned recently when clue found out Untz Factory had gone up into sky during their slot when clue had zero intentions of going up that day. Things like this shouldn't be happening, and guild's shouldnt be able to sit on slots indefinitely from a player made agreement that the GM's decided to make law that alienates a large part of the population on this server from the various epics, and item quests sky has to offer anyone or any guild who is capable of going up there and taking on the challenge.

I mean yeah, I get it. Those of you who were in this player made agreement that the GM's made law are now able to capitalize on 100% and the greed of the few will probably outweigh the needs of many. But really its a selfish outlook when there is other guilds out there that should have a chance, just like any other target on this server.

[loramin]

As for 'showing up late to the party and wants things easier'

You quoted me, so you clearly read my post, but it doesn't seem like you actually read my post: I agree, 100%, Project 1999 is unfair! It's especially unfair to people who are "late to the party."

Want a Mana Orb, Guise of the Deceiver, Circlet of Shadow, or Holgresh Elder Beads, but you were late to the server/party? Too bad: your only option is to farm a ton of plat and buy one from someone who wasn't late to the party.

Now again, that's not a values judgement, it's a statement of fact. If you think it's unfair (because it is) that you have to pay a million plat for a Guise (or whatever they sell for), while other people just had to kill a mob once, then you have to convince the devs that everyone would be better off if they added Guises back into the game.

Sky is the same exact thing (a system that's unfair to the new people), except that convincing 14 guilds/alliances to try something new is a whole hell of lot easier than convincing Nilbog to put Guises back in the game. But it's certainly not going to be easy, and like I said if you want to succeed at it you have to understand why things are how they are, and then suggest something better.

P.S. And rotations are 100% classic, in the sense that there were servers (even in the classic era) that had rotations. They are also 100% unclassic, in the sense that there were servers that didn't have rotations. So really arguing for/against rotations being classic is a lost cause.

P.P.S.
This very situation actually resulted in a guild getting raid banned

Unless I missed something, no guilds were banned: one group got a one week suspension.

[Baylan295]

That's the thing here, a raid guild that's capable of taking on sky shouldn't have to ask permission to raid in a zone that's uncontested in the first place. This very situation actually resulted in a guild getting raid banned recently when clue found out Untz Factory had gone up into sky during their slot when clue had zero intentions of going up that day. Things like this shouldn't be happening, and guild's shouldnt be able to sit on slots indefinitely from a player made agreement that the GM's decided to make law that alienates a large part of the population on this server from the various epics, and item quests sky has to offer anyone or any guild who is capable of going up there and taking on the challenge.

I mean yeah, I get it. Those of you who were in this player made agreement that the GM's made law are now able to capitalize on 100% and the greed of the few will probably outweigh the needs of many. But really its a selfish outlook when there is other guilds out there that should have a chance, just like any other target on this server.

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s inportant have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

[Siberious]

Epics are a big part of the complaint, but not the entire complaint. There are many more raid guilds, than there are slots on this list. Furthermore, not all raid guilds were consulted when this list was made.

Forced rotations, for the most part, are non-classic as well. As for 'showing up late to the party and wants things easier' really is laughable, not to turn this into rants and flames, but the two biggest supporters to post in here so far are members of guilds holding PM slots. Coincidence? not likely.

Tbh I don't care if my guild does Sky or not. What I noted was complaining about it with 0 alternative solution is pointless. You've posted multiple times with 0 proposed solution, just lots of "This is dumb and it shouldn't be this way".

You could, I know shocker, have your guild contact someone on the list and ask if you can alternate weeks. Just requires corpsing in your off weeks. Or you can alternate months. I came up with 2 super basic options that took me 30 seconds. Put in some effort. Also who are these many guilds and have you tried contacting GMs or guilds? Lots of complaining, not much constructive action being done by you.

[loramin]

Oh also OP, the image in your signature is a broken link. Plus, if you hosted it on imgur.com you could get it to actually show up in your sig.

[Jokesteve]

See my responses in red:

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s important*** have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

Your reasons are just a result of the zone and how its intended. Keying in sky always took time on live, as it should here. Rotation or no rotation, mobs being up or down is the end result of guilds actively trying their best to get from one spot to the next. Thats classic my man.

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

You might be right, but all the same, selfish reasons are still my point that this shouldn't be happening and this agreement shouldn't be forced on anyone not in the agreement.

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

FFA has always been what I have done on live, and here on p99. The only alternative I could give to your agreement and those of us who are not in it would be to exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots. So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

My guild raids like every other guild on this server, taking targets when we can when they spawn, contesting them with the rest of the server. I don't see why sky should be any different and I've already given my reasons why. So, no, we have never actively sought after a player made agreement for anything. We hit things when we have the people online and when the need arises and the mob is up.

[enjchanter]

I imagine if you approached any one of those 8 guilds’ leadership indicating you are working on Epic Piece X, and would like to join them for their slot in the foreseeable future while you work on it, you could come to a fair and equitable agreement about how that would be handled. None of those guilds is particularly interested in bottlenecking people’s epic pieces, and if you are contributing, I expect they would not mind letting you tag along and work on those pieces on a fair basis with their membership.


Personally have done this twice and they were more than happy to lend me a hand

[Baylan295]

See my responses in red:

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s important*** have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

Your reasons are just a result of the zone and how its intended. Keying in sky always took time on live, as it should here. Rotation or no rotation, mobs being up or down is the end result of guilds actively trying their best to get from one spot to the next. Thats classic my man.

Your definition of classic is a player/behavior classic, not a mechanic classic. Good luck regulating that. It’s impossible. As loramin said, on some servers, rotations were classic.

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

You might be right, but all the same, selfish reasons are still my point that this shouldn't be happening and this agreement shouldn't be forced on anyone not in the agreement.

So you would propose allowing 1 (or 2 or however many) guilds to tear apart an Agreement made between a large portion of the raiding guilds on the server?

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

FFA has always been what I have done on live, and here on p99. The only alternative I could give to your agreement and those of us who are not in it would be to exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots. So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

You don’t have to ask permission - you only have to ask permission if it’s one of the 11/14 slots that’s taken, unless you want to piss in someone’s wheaties and see what comes of it. It’s just as classic for you to have to be there at 8 am on a Wednesday to get the drops you want. The consequences of violating this agreement, even without GM intervention, would probably be pretty severe. Good luck finding groups, getting ports and rezzes, or any kind of help on a tagged toon if your guild chose to destroy the sky agreement. The sky agreement opens this content up to a much broader part of the server than would otherwise be available. If you aren’t in the sky rotation and want to get locked out of content, look at how AM/Tempest handle ToV. There aren’t many other guilds taking down mobs there with any regularity.


5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

My guild raids like every other guild on this server, taking targets when we can when they spawn, contesting them with the rest of the server. I don't see why sky should be any different and I've already given my reasons why. So, no, we have never actively sought after a player made agreement for anything. We hit things when we have the people online and when the need arises and the mob is up.

So you have taken no steps, and are complaining about something you don’t like. Good luck, man.

[Siberious]

See my responses in red:

1) The reasons for a rotation and why it’s important*** have already been stated in this thread. Do you disagree with those reasons?

Your reasons are just a result of the zone and how its intended. Keying in sky always took time on live, as it should here. Rotation or no rotation, mobs being up or down is the end result of guilds actively trying their best to get from one spot to the next. Thats classic my man.

2) I don’t think anyone was raid banned. I think some players got suspended, but all I’ve seen is RNF, so who knows.

You might be right, but all the same, selfish reasons are still my point that this shouldn't be happening and this agreement shouldn't be forced on anyone not in the agreement.

3) If someone is not using their slot, talk to their leadership and I bet it won’t be an issue.

4) What is your reasonable alternative to the sky rotation?

FFA has always been what I have done on live, and here on p99. The only alternative I could give to your agreement and those of us who are not in it would be to exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots. So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

5) edit: what steps have you and your guild taken to actually move toward getting a sky slot?

My guild raids like every other guild on this server, taking targets when we can when they spawn, contesting them with the rest of the server. I don't see why sky should be any different and I've already given my reasons why. So, no, we have never actively sought after a player made agreement for anything. We hit things when we have the people online and when the need arises and the mob is up.

Okay nice we're getting somewhere now. So you're thinking 2 days are complete FFA days and rotation can be for other days of the week. Or it's just FFA in general.

My concern here for pure FFA is this means small groups could clear 1-4 whenever they want, and would block islands 5-7 majority of the time, as they require a stronger force. Now you're blocking later islands more often.

Also if it's pure FFA you're removing clearing the islands twice a day in some cases, because people could roll in halfway through the day and clear the island. Less epics, less loot.

Lastly, how do you ever organize trying to key/corpse effectively? Now you have to go up more frequently to see what's up, requires more effort from everyone, lots more recorpsing.

All in all I see less loot, less epics getting done, tons of petitions to GMs, lots of blocking. So you want complete FFA because it favors your guild, and ruins Sky for 8+ other guilds?

Sounds worse for the server players & GM, I however don't mind a 5 day rotation with 2 FFA days. That's a compromise, but tbh I think you'll not enjoy numerous different groups going up at really off hours and clearing the early islands, thus the FFA days become crazy difficult to key or contest anything.

Also you'll have groups key through 7 and then use FFA days to pick off the 3-4 quick mobs they care about (Like Gorg --> KoS --> EoV --> HoV).

Sounds easier to get in contract with a guild on the slot and work things out.

[Jokesteve]

Solution: Exclude particular sky days from your agreement all together for those guilds involved within the agreement. OPEN sky days for the server who are not holding slots (for example, 1 weekday, 1 weekend day). So everyone else has a chance at sky that does not have an indefinite sky slot for the foreseeable future. I don't feel that a raid guild that's capable should have to ask for permission to joint raid or ask for permission to use someone else's slot and risk getting raid banned because of a player made agreement that was made law. Perhaps 1-2 days a week that are completely open to the rest of the server that the guilds within your agreement simply can not attend would be the best course of action to fulfill all parties desires. Those within the agreement, and those that are not.

I'd love to hear comments on this. Of course, this means some re-arranging of your list would have to be made, and some PM slots would be lost, as only AM slots are open. But if this agreement and all parties truly care about the needs of many and not just the needs of those who it benefits, then this would be the best solution I could offer.

[Jokesteve]

Okay nice we're getting somewhere now. So you're thinking 2 days are complete FFA days and rotation can be for other days of the week. Or it's just FFA in general.

My concern here for pure FFA is this means small groups could clear 1-4 whenever they want, and would block islands 5-7 majority of the time, as they require a stronger force. Now you're blocking later islands more often.

Also if it's pure FFA you're removing clearing the islands twice a day in some cases, because people could roll in halfway through the day and clear the island. Less epics, less loot.

Lastly, how do you ever organize trying to key/corpse effectively? Now you have to go up more frequently to see what's up, requires more effort from everyone, lots more recorpsing.

All in all I see less loot, less epics getting done, tons of petitions to GMs, lots of blocking. So you want complete FFA because it favors your guild, and ruins Sky for 8+ other guilds?

Sounds worse for the server players & GM, I however don't mind a 5 day rotation with 2 FFA days. That's a compromise, but tbh I think you'll not enjoy numerous different groups going up at really off hours and clearing the early islands, thus the FFA days become crazy difficult to key or contest anything.

Also you'll have groups key through 7 and then use FFA days to pick off the 3-4 quick mobs they care about (Like Gorg --> KoS --> EoV --> HoV).

Sounds easier to get in contract with a guild on the slot and work things out.

Recorpsing is something you would already be doing with your current rotation, I fail to see how FFA days would effect this. Regardless, lets be honest with ourselves here, the only thing this rotation currently favors is the guilds that are on it. As for particular groups keying and hitting certain mobs, I'm sure that will happen, and I'm sure that already happens as is, hence the rotation put in place. On live, these kind of problems no longer exist, due to instancing. Even normal exp zones are now instanced when a certain player limit is reached. But what really brings me back to this server, and the immersion is the race, the contesting, the competition against the other guilds as you go for the boss.

Hence my distaste for these player agreements in general, on Tholuxe Paells we didn't have these rotations, nor did we on Firiona Vie.

[Jimjam]

If anything the rotation agreement isn't strong enough; YDYN (your day your noble) needs to go back to being a thing.

It's infuriating having Sirfloppins team threaten to petition quest you against a perceived transgression when THEY are the ones taking mobs on another forces day!

They took our 'Freeti drops!

[Siberious]

Recorpsing is something you would already be doing with your current rotation, I fail to see how FFA days would effect this. Regardless, lets be honest with ourselves here, the only thing this rotation currently favors is the guilds that are on it. As for particular groups keying and hitting certain mobs, I'm sure that will happen, and I'm sure that already happens as is, hence the rotation put in place. On live, these kind of problems no longer exist, due to instancing. Even normal exp zones are now instanced when a certain player limit is reached. But what really brings me back to this server, and the immersion is the race, the contesting, the competition against the other guilds as you go for the boss.

Hence my distaste for these player agreements in general, on Tholuxe Paells we didn't have these rotations, nor did we on Firiona Vie.

Corpsing is completely different because you do it 1 time per week and then start your raid. However with FFA you have to be checking sky on numerous days, find most of the mobs likely not up, and leave.

All I see with FFA is Sky becomes ToV with people socking it 24/7 but in this case for sniping a specific mob and potentially blocking others from keying. If you don't think this will happen for select targets then you don't raid much on this server. Someone needs Gorg? Guild socks him every spawn and blocks anyone from keying to 4 until they get their loot. Sound like fun? Not to me. Same thing would happen with monk belts for EoV, kill squad parked on 7 to pull and kill every spawn till they get their loot and run outta people to sell loot rights to.

But hey, let's make sky an FFA shitshow, why not. #itsClassic

[aaezil]

Wow aftermath is sniping nobles now. What a trash guild seriously

[Jokesteve]

My suggestion was 2 FFA days, not complete FFA.

So those in the agreement could continue to have their cake. So to speak.

[Baylan295]

Recorpsing is something you would already be doing with your current rotation, I fail to see how FFA days would effect this. Regardless, lets be honest with ourselves here, the only thing this rotation currently favors is the guilds that are on it. As for particular groups keying and hitting certain mobs, I'm sure that will happen, and I'm sure that already happens as is, hence the rotation put in place. On live, these kind of problems no longer exist, due to instancing. Even normal exp zones are now instanced when a certain player limit is reached. But what really brings me back to this server, and the immersion is the race, the contesting, the competition against the other guilds as you go for the boss.

Hence my distaste for these player agreements in general, on Tholuxe Paells we didn't have these rotations, nor did we on Firiona Vie.

What are you racing for in sky? Last I checked, this was about sky belts and epic quest pieces...

[Zemus]

A reasonable solution would be to have guilds sign up for a 10-12 week block and not hold on to a sky day in perpetuity. Then a guild would have to take a required break and then re-sign up for a new block.

[Siberious]

My suggestion was 2 FFA days, not complete FFA.

So those in the agreement could continue to have their cake. So to speak.

2 days would be interesting, similar to what I said applies where those 2 days become a shit show of perma farmed mobs by keyed players and most trash skipped. But it's not a bad proposal. Also as Chillwin mentioned, rotating every 3 months would be a viable solution too, though more GM maintenance there, but easily more fair for guilds not in rotation.

Though I'd be interested to know how many guilds aren't in the rotation atm that want to be. Especially if they just want to be in to get a couple epic pieces & haste belts.

[Jimjam]

Wow aftermath is sniping nobles now. What a trash guild seriously

In fairness that was like a year ago. I don't know who is the current djinnibagging scum at the moment... Not planarity I guess ;)

[icedwards]

In fairness that was like a year ago. I don't know who is the current djinnibagging scum at the moment... Not planarity I guess ;)

Planarity is just scum for farming KoS on Clue's indefinitely suspended sky day, which is somehow worse than Noble snipers /boggle

[Baylan295]

2 days would be interesting, similar to what I said applies where those 2 days become a shit show of perma farmed mobs by keyed players and most trash skipped. But it's not a bad proposal. Also as Chillwin mentioned, rotating every 3 months would be a viable solution too, though more GM maintenance there, but easily more fair for guilds not in rotation.

Though I'd be interested to know how many guilds aren't in the rotation atm that want to be. Especially if they just want to be in to get a couple epic pieces & haste belts.

Does anyone really think FFA days are going to open up epic pieces and haste belts to casuals?

[Sadiki]

Yet another situation that could be resolved by just being friendly and talking to another human being, but here we are.

[Jimjam]

Planarity is just scum for farming KoS on Clue's indefinitely suspended sky day, which is somehow worse than Noble snipers /boggle

We're just a hotbed of Villany on p99 velious blue!

[Siberious]

Does anyone really think FFA days are going to open up epic pieces and haste belts to casuals?

Originally OP said Sky Agreement prevents others not in agreement from getting epics and such, that's who I've been directing my comments to. Only reason casual guilds get more of these epic pieces and haste belts is because of the agreement, hence all my comments about mobs being socked without 1.

I can appreciate others different preferred experiences, so if he likes FFA for a couple days it'd be worth requesting to GMs if he wants, I just imagine it being a few groups key to 8 and then sock the few named they want 2 days a week. Sounds like other, imo, sucky raid scene experiences that exist.

[Baylan295]

Originally OP said Sky Agreement prevents others not in agreement from getting epics and such, that's who I've been directing my comments to. Only reason casual guilds get more of these epic pieces and haste belts is because of the agreement, hence all my comments about mobs being socked without 1.

I can appreciate others different preferred experiences, so if he likes FFA for a couple days it'd be worth requesting to GMs if he wants, I just imagine it being a few groups key to 8 and then sock the few named they want 2 days a week. Sounds like other, imo, sucky raid content that exists.

Based on OP’s stated goals and position, though, I am curious what guilds are currently being denied sky slots that want them, or if OP is part of a farm crew that doesn’t want to deal with the rules of a widespread player agreement that is pretty well liked, as far as I know.

[Wonkie]

its for your own good sky is terrible

[Dithien]

All that needs to be done is to require Sky guilds/alliance to post a notification on the forums when they are not going up. Every week several/maybe as many as half the slots are not used.

Once the guild notifies that they aren't going up, that slot becomes FFA during that period. People going up could just be warned not to kill stuff late enough to interfere with the next slot.

Problem solved.

[Triiz]

What guild are you in OP that this is now a big concern compared to the player made agreement that was in effect for years before Sirken's post? I don't see how this is different for guilds, just farm crews.

[Foxplay]

It must be really hard to be a friendly person and reaching out and communicating with the guilds that have sky slots like a reasonable, civil, adult in order to finish epics....

If they dont want to share there may be some reasons
1) They have members that need before unguilded
2) Your in a guild that sky is "beneath them" due to competing for higher value targets. And due to your tag they have no interest in helping you.
3) You can't communicate like a reasonable human or they hate you
4) They are using their sky slot to Bogart epic MQ plat

Also if your in a guild that doesn't have a sky slot because it's not worth it for them, then booho. Enjoy your velious loot and you can probably afford the MQ anyway

[Canelek]

Is this proposal coming from leadership of OP's guild? If so, which guild? It can be as easy as just typing words to another person to communicate. It's not like you need to set up a conference room w/projector.

Most folks are actually quite reasonable humanelfs.

[Ketu Garyx]

Not to mention, if you're one of the unfortunate classes (ranger, monk, enc, mage, paladin) that have epic items in this zone you will now have to leave your guild and join one of the above if you don't want to pay a ridiculous MQ price, or hope your guild is friends with one of the above and hope the host guild does not have a player that already needs the item.

Somewhat TLDR for the whole post but really? I generally lead the Hydra Alliance sky raids and I have absolutely never turned down a ranger from coming to Island 4 to get a swirling sphere, an enchanter can literally just port up to plane of sky, grab the thing and leave, the gwan fight for monks takes like 12 seconds - ask to come up, hell we will probably let you and help, magician: see ench, and paladin and necro can easily be done during someone else's raid with cooperation as well. These quests are 100% not blocked by a player agreement and to say they are is dishonest. You don't need to leave a guild or be "in" with a guild to get help, you just need to ask. I am 90% sure most of the other guilds would feel the same way, especially for some of these incredibly simple and not-rare items/drops/turn ins.

[Jokesteve]

Somewhat TLDR for the whole post but really? I generally lead the Hydra Alliance sky raids and I have absolutely never turned down a ranger from coming to Island 4 to get a swirling sphere, an enchanter can literally just port up to plane of sky, grab the thing and leave, the gwan fight for monks takes like 12 seconds - ask to come up, hell we will probably let you and help, magician: see ench, and paladin and necro can easily be done during someone else's raid with cooperation as well. These quests are 100% not blocked by a player agreement and to say they are is dishonest. You don't need to leave a guild or be "in" with a guild to get help, you just need to ask. I am 90% sure most of the other guilds would feel the same way, especially for some of these incredibly simple and not-rare items/drops/turn ins.

Thats great that you do that, but there is other guilds who want to raid sky, and not have their hand held, or ask for permission to do so. Or have a player made agreement that allowed it all to happen in the first place.

If that makes sense.

[loramin]

there is other guilds who want to raid sky, and not have their hand held, or ask for permission to do so

Just curious, which guilds specifically?

[Jimjam]

Rivervale Vanguard, Rivervale Vanguard! Woof, woof. Woof woof!

[Rygar]

Didn't read 5 page thread about how rotating Sky would be bad for the server (it is one of the most annoying raid zones in EQ). And people wonder why ToV / Dragon rotations won't work.

[Baylan295]

Thats great that you do that, but there is other guilds who want to raid sky, and not have their hand held, or ask for permission to do so. Or have a player made agreement that allowed it all to happen in the first place.

If that makes sense.

Which guild(s)? I have not heard of any specific guild objecting to the Sky rotation, and we’re 5 pages into this thing. At this point, this seems liked a veiled attempt to give farmers more opportunity to farm. So - please, give me a reason to believe otherwise.

You’ve heard from multiple people that there are multiple prime time opportunities to obtain the epic and other pieces from Sky from any number of sources, and as far as I’m concerned, you have yet to articulate a good reason to do away with the Agreement other than some alleged unfairness. Your objection appears to merely be “rotations are wrong.” That’s fine, and you are entitled to that opinion, and there are plenty that disagree with that opinion on this single issue for any number of reasons. The GMs on this server have repeatedly taken action to support the decisions and player made agreements that have worked for a period of time, and this is one circumstance where a rotation makes real sense.

[Triiz]

At this point, this seems liked a veiled attempt to give farmers more opportunity to farm.

[Siberious]

Didn't read 5 page thread about how rotating Sky would be bad for the server (it is one of the most annoying raid zones in EQ). And people wonder why ToV / Dragon rotations won't work.

Lazy bad post is lazy and bad. There is 1 person stating how they think the agreement is bad (OP), remaining are looking for clarification on why he thinks so/what is his guild and why they can't just attempt to contact others in rotation. The agreement seems to be supported in this thread, OP just wants to compete for sky whenever he wants, just like non-sky raid content is done here.

Not reading and then commenting blindly is for RnF, it's over that wayyy --->

[Atmas]

My perspective, coming from a person not interested in doing sky, after reading through this post:

1. Corpsing shouldn't be grounds for a schedule. If you can organize a raid you can organize corpse refreshes. Going up just to refresh was pretty standard fare when it was FFA.

2. I think a lot of the guilds in the rotation would probably be fine accommodating someone looking for one piece with no expectations of payment if they were just reached out too. There are some other guilds which I think would say they would be open to helping but would want compensation. In my opinion, if you are getting a GM forced rotation you really shouldn't be using it to extort people.

3. I understand not wanting to have your hand held. I think some guilds would just want to be able to do their own sky when they have the numbers. It may not be related to the bottleneck argument but people joined a specific guild to raid with those members.

4. Complaining someone went to Sky on your turn when you weren't going to do it seems akin to a child complaining their younger sibling was using one of their old toys. Kind of petty. There should probably be a time limit on slots, such as if not started by X:XX a guild can start before X:XX.

5. A couple of permanently or rotating open slots seems reasonable.

[Rainik Stormseeker]

What if your a raid guild who wants to do sky, but raids in the PM and not currently holding one of those PM slots?

As it stands now, if you're in a PM raid guild that is not the following: Paradigm Shift, Clue, Blood Guard, Azure Guard, Anonymous, The Second Sons, Kittens Who Say Meow or Hydra Alliance and you hold a standard 8am-5pm job you are never going to be able to raid sky on your own as a guild function.

Not to mention, if you're one of the unfortunate classes (ranger, monk, enc, mage, paladin) that have epic items in this zone you will now have to leave your guild and join one of the above if you don't want to pay a ridiculous MQ price, or hope your guild is friends with one of the above and hope the host guild does not have a player that already needs the item.

You could always just ask if you could join their raid(s)?

[Rainik Stormseeker]

Somewhat TLDR for the whole post but really? I generally lead the Hydra Alliance sky raids and I have absolutely never turned down a ranger from coming to Island 4 to get a swirling sphere, an enchanter can literally just port up to plane of sky, grab the thing and leave, the gwan fight for monks takes like 12 seconds - ask to come up, hell we will probably let you and help, magician: see ench, and paladin and necro can easily be done during someone else's raid with cooperation as well. These quests are 100% not blocked by a player agreement and to say they are is dishonest. You don't need to leave a guild or be "in" with a guild to get help, you just need to ask. I am 90% sure most of the other guilds would feel the same way, especially for some of these incredibly simple and not-rare items/drops/turn ins.

^

[Jokesteve]

You could always just ask if you could join their raid(s)?

Atmas response to this pretty much nailed why this is not a valid solution for anyone that is not within the player made agreement that wants to raid with their guild in sky.

[Holyhawk]

Atmas response to this pretty much nailed why this is not a valid solution for anyone that is not within the player made agreement that wants to raid with their guild in sky.

No, actually it didn't.

[Jimjam]

Atmas response to this pretty much nailed why this is not a valid solution for anyone that is not within the player made agreement that wants to raid with their guild in sky.

Which guilds are those? Beyond Rivervale Vanguard.

[Lojik]

Why it's bad for the server or why it's bad for you?

[Jimjam]

Why it's bad for the server or why it's bad for you?

When he says it is 'bad for the server', he has clarified that to mean 'bad for the guilds who are capable and willing to do Sky, don't have an existing PM slot and aren't able to do AM'.

At the moment no one has mentioned any guild names, so basically the point is hypothetical people's experience is more important than actual players.

Perhaps he is saying how much more popular the server would be, and how many more guilds there would be if it wasn't for the sky rotation.

That is the logical conclusion I can pull out of this.

[sereal]

Couldn't we just have a process in place that every X period of time we do a /random and pick a new rotation so new guilds or guilds without a slot can have a chance at getting one?

Alternatively have a rule that any forks in a guild without a slot MUST be allowed to attend any sky raid and roll?

Seems like the core problem is that if you don't have a sky slot there isn't a obvious process to get one. Just because you're a farm crew doesn't mean you don't deserve a equal opportunity.

[MagpieRockyl]

sky... it really sucks

[Baylan295]

Seems like the core problem is that if you don't have a sky slot there isn't a obvious process to get one. Just because you're a farm crew doesn't mean you don't deserve a equal opportunity.

There’s a very obvious process to get one. There are three open slots. Pick one. Or go and kill mobs during one of those open times. Don’t like the fact it doesn’t fit your play schedule? I don’t like that every major raid mob in the game has a 16 hour window.

This entire thread is a disingenuous attempt to help people that want to sell and bottleneck epic pieces and rare sky drops. Name *one* guild that wants to do sky regularly that doesn’t get to do so - I haven’t seen a name yet.

And I have also seen zero evidence that unnamed guild has taken any affirmative steps to ask any other guild to tag along in order to do sky.

No one is saying that farm crews don’t “deserve” an equal opportunity, but the entire argument is disingenuous and has been framed as a way of helping people when it’s BS as far as I can tell.

[Canelek]

Another reason is Sky is horribly boring and time consuming. A rotation is great so folks can get in and do the needful, so to speak. Haste and epic parts are too valuable to not hit sky up regularly.

That said, the last thing this server needs is an opportunity for a farm crew to further bottleneck things.

Player agreements sometimes are the only way to enforce civility. Also, yeah sky rotation is classic for many.

[Jauna]

I think its time to say fuck it and form one mega guild or have GM forced rotations. Punishment for breaking the rotation is having your pixels deleted, start with epics and move on down

[Bummey]

man it must be unfortunate to not have access to certain mobs you need for your epic. boy, must be hard playing on this server and not being able to get something on your own. buy an epic mq? perish the thought

awakened and aftermath get really mad when they can't control something

[planarity]

man it must be unfortunate to not have access to certain mobs you need for your epic. boy, must be hard playing on this server and not being able to get something on your own. buy an epic mq? perish the thought

awakened and aftermath get really mad when they can't control something

"getting a torpor or a necromancer epic is hard and it's shitty when guilds lock others out from these things, so sky should also be shitty and we should have the ability to lock people out from sky (with GM enforcement) out of spite" basically sums up this argument as well as similar arguments from loramin and others. There are some decent arguments for the sky rotation, but this isn't one of them.

What do I mean by "lock people out of sky"? Well what I mean is Bummey petitioning me and my friends for going up one day a couple weeks ago in <Clue>'s slot, when they had already decided not to go and in fact their sky raids had been "indefinitely suspended" for weeks already. For some reason the GMs went along with this and suspended our toons for a week. Here (https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/8mwx8y/something_strange_in_sky/) is some more info for the curious. (Of course after that debacle, <Clue> was basically forced to start going back up again and so they've started to do that.)

What do I mean "out of spite"? Well here are some quotes from a convo I had with Bummey after the fact:

"I would not have assented to your presence in Sky on our night, regardless of our attendance."
"People like you have been running roughshod over this server and the majority of its member base going on a decade now and it is not acceptable. [because I was in one of the top guilds once]"
"You know what you and your ilk[sic] do to this server and its players."


We didn't ask for <Clue>'s permission because who would have dreamed we needed it? I spoke to a friendly clue member. First I asked for an officer just because they generally have more idea what's going on, he told me there weren't any officers around but assured me that clue hadn't been doing sky lately at all and definitely wouldn't be going on that day. That was enough for me (and any reasonable person), and even the friendly clue member agreed:

"well.. srry bout what happened.. they made a big deal in gmotd that sky was put on hold for a while. .so figured it wasnt a big deal"
"aye.. dont see that u guys did anything wrong really.. ..but thats me.. ".


This concept of guilds having so much ownership of their sky slots that they can veto other people from killing the mobs when they won't be killing them themselves (and won't even be entering the zone at all) is totally new and obviously absurd. (Disagree? Name a precedent.) Instead, it should be the norm (if not a rule) that guilds who know they won't be using their slot for a given week should say so publicly so that others can go. If you want to improve the sky rotation, start there. It's worth talking about other ways that the sky rotation could be improved/updated, and maybe I'll give my 2 cents in another post later, but I wanted to clear up some misconceptions and call out some hypocrisy.

For the record, it isn't perfect but I have always been OK with the sky rotation (I used to lead the sky raids for <Rampage> and other guilds) and have always been happy to go along with it until a new scheme is put in place. This is true in spite of Loramin's literally dozens of assertions in the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/8mwx8y/something_strange_in_sky/) like that we "decide[d] the rules don't apply to [us]" and so on. We haven't and wouldn't have gone during a slot that was going to be used, and I'll leave it to the readers of this thread to come to their own conclusions about whether that's respecting the current agreement or not. I know he will try this trick again so I wanted to inb4.

Also for the record, we weren't a "farm crew", just some people who needed sky drops for our characters with no intentions of selling anything, although I don't see anything wrong with selling some drops that you don't need (for those interested, Bummey is selling necro epic cloaks and has one for sale and "two in the wings" (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296883)).


Best,

Planarity/Unicity

[Bummey]

you sound mad

[Swish2]

What do I mean by "lock people out of sky"? Well what I mean is Bummey petitioning me and my friends for going up one day a couple weeks ago in <Clue>'s slot, when they had already decided not to go...

Sounds like he's not the only one :rolleyes:

[elwing]

Still wondering why this is not in RnF... I don't see anything constructive there, pure rant...

[planarity]

Still wondering why this is not in RnF... I don't see anything constructive there, pure rant...

Well fair enough I guess, although the OP and others brought up the clue sky thing with me and people seemed to not really know what happened, so we may as well make it clear what happened and how silly it was if we're going to be talking about the sky rotation.

Also once Bvmmey stated weighing in, I thought we could all use some insight into why he shouldn't be taken too seriously.

There was a constructive bit in there that I admit wasn't so easy to find: Many guilds don't use their slot every week, and it would help a lot if they would post that fact somewhere in advance so others can use the slot that week. This is low-hanging fruit (oh also also obviously if a guild isn't going up, they should be able to veto anyone else from going up, but that's so obvious it should go without saying).

[Bummey]

We've spoken enough in the past for you to know I can be very diplomatic and well reasoned when the conversation warrants it. This, right now, doesn't. You think you're being devious with all this forumquesting, but there are plenty of people who know what Awakened's word is really worth and the real reason you're leading this crusade.

You are transparent.

[Holyhawk]

Ask an officer for permission to go up, instead of some random schmo in a guild full of random schmos just hours before you go up? This is not hard. Use common sense.

[planarity]

there are plenty of people who know what Awakened's word is really worth and the real reason you're leading this crusade.

You are transparent.


I was in awakened for like 3 or 4 months, and I'm not anymore. What's the crusade and why am I leading it? I wanted to get a haste cloak for my ranger, so crusade over. Now I'm just annoyed that petty people petition things out of spite, and that the GMs seem willing to go along with it for some reason.

[Canelek]

One would think that at this point, smaller groups of forumquesters, only striving to forumquest more good, would have more equally distributed forumquest equity.

[Rang]

arguing about raiding plane of sky in 2018 on an almost decade old emulated server

[Jimjam]

"getting a torpor or a necromancer epic is hard and it's shitty when guilds lock others out from these things, so sky should also be shitty and we should have the ability to lock people out from sky (with GM enforcement) out of spite" basically sums up this argument as well as similar arguments from loramin and others. There are some decent arguments for the sky rotation, but this isn't one of them.

What do I mean by "lock people out of sky"? Well what I mean is Bummey petitioning me and my friends for going up one day a couple weeks ago in <Clue>'s slot, when they had already decided not to go and in fact their sky raids had been "indefinitely suspended" for weeks already. For some reason the GMs went along with this and suspended our toons for a week. Here (https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/8mwx8y/something_strange_in_sky/) is some more info for the curious. (Of course after that debacle, <Clue> was basically forced to start going back up again and so they've started to do that.)

What do I mean "out of spite"? Well here are some quotes from a convo I had with Bummey after the fact:


We didn't ask for <Clue>'s permission because who would have dreamed we needed it? I spoke to a friendly clue member. First I asked for an officer just because they generally have more idea what's going on, he told me there weren't any officers around but assured me that clue hadn't been doing sky lately at all and definitely wouldn't be going on that day. That was enough for me (and any reasonable person), and even the friendly clue member agreed:


This concept of guilds having so much ownership of their sky slots that they can veto other people from killing the mobs when they won't be killing them themselves (and won't even be entering the zone at all) is totally new and obviously absurd. (Disagree? Name a precedent.) Instead, it should be the norm (if not a rule) that guilds who know they won't be using their slot for a given week should say so publicly so that others can go. If you want to improve the sky rotation, start there. It's worth talking about other ways that the sky rotation could be improved/updated, and maybe I'll give my 2 cents in another post later, but I wanted to clear up some misconceptions and call out some hypocrisy.

For the record, it isn't perfect but I have always been OK with the sky rotation (I used to lead the sky raids for <Rampage> and other guilds) and have always been happy to go along with it until a new scheme is put in place. This is true in spite of Loramin's literally dozens of assertions in the reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/8mwx8y/something_strange_in_sky/) like that we "decide[d] the rules don't apply to [us]" and so on. We haven't and wouldn't have gone during a slot that was going to be used, and I'll leave it to the readers of this thread to come to their own conclusions about whether that's respecting the current agreement or not. I know he will try this trick again so I wanted to inb4.

Also for the record, we weren't a "farm crew", just some people who needed sky drops for our characters with no intentions of selling anything, although I don't see anything wrong with selling some drops that you don't need (for those interested, Bummey is selling necro epic cloaks and has one for sale and "two in the wings" (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296883)).


Best,

Planarity/UnicityFor what it's worth, and even though I will give you the 'farm crew' ribbing, I actually am on your side.

Petitioning for 'depriving clue of their slot' is crying wolf. Clue holding on to an unused sky slot is zone monopolisation. Repeatedly failing to use their slot is Clue breaking the sky rotation agreement.

Enjoy your 30, 40 and 50 day consecutive raid bans from Planarity's counter petitions, Clue!

(Planarity plz don't counter petition, I doubt the GMs share this perspective and we don't want you to eat another ban :()

[Mead]

arguing about raiding plane of sky in 2018 on an almost decade old emulated server

at least we have these mentally ill folks isolated

[Argh]

Bummey is a dummy.

[Stroboo]

arguing about raiding plane of sky in 2018 on an almost decade old emulated server

I think it’s more whining then arguing tbh

[Wonkie]

sky agreement = unions

whining about it = free market

well bye

[Mead]

sky agreement = unions

whining about it = free market

well bye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5oEzVbu8HQ

[pogs4ever]

A reasonable solution would be to have guilds sign up for a 10-12 week block and not hold on to a sky day in perpetuity. Then a guild would have to take a required break and then re-sign up for a new block.

[HalflingWarrior]

What if your raid guild who wants to do sky

Then you leave said raid guild

[loramin]

Which guilds are those? Beyond Rivervale Vanguard.

I still anxiously await an answer to this one, as it seems sort of central to the entire thread (or at least to OP's original goal for it).

[MagpieRockyl]

Which guilds are those? Beyond Rivervale Vanguard.

Rivervalr Vanguard kicks any member who goes to sky during summer time in 2018 no questions asked. Policy under review for the winter season

[Zutizutzut]

If the Untz group was really going up to get epic pieces for their toons, I find the whole situation sad.

The members from Awakened used to have a Sky slot. The schedule was modified to replace them by Rustle without any discussion with the Awakened officers. Even though Awakened very rarely had been going to Sky, this offense was dramatically worse.

If Awakened still had their slot, the members of this trip to Sky would likely have had the pieces they sought long ago.

[Rang]

Rivervalr Vanguard kicks any member who goes to sky during summer time in 2018 no questions asked. Policy under review for the winter season

Plane of sky summer raiders:

https://i.imgur.com/VjvtU1t.jpg

[Jokesteve]

Funny the admins would rather ignore the problem and move this to RnF than give it the actual attention it deserves.

[Sirken]

Funny the admins would rather ignore the problem and move this to RnF than give it the actual attention it deserves.

What's funny is that you think this is a democracy or that we would ever base game policy off of people crying on the forum.

This system has worked for years (with only a few issues where one or both guild leaders asked me to step in and mediate the issue). If you want to go to Sky, I strongly suggest that you either go on an open slot, or, work on your communication skills and open up a dialog with a guild leader that has a slot.

I'm not going to close this thread as I know venting and complaining helps some of you cope. But do know that as far as the staff is concerned, this discussion is a moot point.

Have a wonderful day,
Sirken

[Jokesteve]

Who said anything about a democracy?

Regardless if you felt it was an offense to what you think is a good system does not take away from what it was - an open discussion, not crying.

I gave a valid solution, that does not exclude every guild on the server not included in the player made agreement. Which some players even agreed sounded like a good idea.

Indefinite sky slots regardless, should not be a thing and more players agreed with this as well. I know your a reasonable man, and hopefully you can agree with this as well.

[Wonkie]

Who said anything about a democracy?

Regardless if you felt it was an offense to what you think is a good system does not take away from what it was - an open discussion, not crying.

I gave a valid solution, that does not exclude every guild on the server not included in the player made agreement. Which some players even agreed sounded like a good idea.

Indefinite sky slots regardless, should not be a thing and more players agreed with this as well. I know your a reasonable man, and hopefully you can agree with this as well.

your tears are delicious :)

[Kesselring]

Just take an AM slot and dont do your clear till 4pm est but claim that is the only time you can do it and you had to take the AM slot because if someone kills it at 10am your mobs wont be up till 6pm and then force the original guild there with a pm slot to rotate with you every other week.

[Wonkie]

Just take an AM slot and dont do your clear till 4pm est but claim that is the only time you can do it and you had to take the AM slot because if someone kills it at 10am your mobs wont be up till 6pm and then force the original guild there with a pm slot to rotate with you every other week.

why not just do the am slot? are you a dick

[Moerne]

why not just do the am slot? are you a dick

No, that was something that previously happened. Don't want to stir the pot so I'll leave it for someone else to mention the guilds involved.

[MagpieRockyl]

What's funny is that you think this is a democracy or that we would ever base game policy off of people crying on the forum.

This system has worked for years (with only a few issues where one or both guild leaders asked me to step in and mediate the issue). If you want to go to Sky, I strongly suggest that you either go on an open slot, or, work on your communication skills and open up a dialog with a guild leader that has a slot.

I'm not going to close this thread as I know venting and complaining helps some of you cope. But do know that as far as the staff is concerned, this discussion is a moot point.

Have a wonderful day,
Sirken

get fucked by sirkdawg pras

[Phenyo]

What's funny is that you think this is a democracy or that we would ever base game policy off of people crying on the forum.

This system has worked for years (with only a few issues where one or both guild leaders asked me to step in and mediate the issue). If you want to go to Sky, I strongly suggest that you either go on an open slot, or, work on your communication skills and open up a dialog with a guild leader that has a slot.

I'm not going to close this thread as I know venting and complaining helps some of you cope. But do know that as far as the staff is concerned, this discussion is a moot point.

Have a wonderful day,
Sirken

dunked

[Canelek]

Some of you folks must be absolute delights in person.

[Dreenk317]

I've been told I'm alright.

[Kesselring]

He's sarcastically reminding everyone that Europa did that to Paradox last November and December - without asking permission and with no prior warning.

But I do echo your reaction.

well I never! I am most certainly not a dick.

[Halox]

He's sarcastically reminding everyone that Europa did that to Paradox last November and December - without asking permission and with no prior warning.

But I do echo your reaction.

They did it to FoH too for a couple years. And when those guilds tried to talk to Europa about it, they basically got a big FU from them.

[Endonde]

They did it to FoH too for a couple years. And when those guilds tried to talk to Europa about it, they basically got a big FU from them.

TMO did it to A-team for years as well, I think the position on that one was "Why don't you merge with them."

[paulgiamatti]

Just stop being so picky in 2018 elf sim and join a guild with a sky slot that you like, and stay for 6 months or however long it takes to save DKP and win the stuff you want. Probably the easiest route all things considered. Plus it will be transactional - you'll be helping the guild you decide to join.

[Jokesteve]

Just stop being so picky in 2018 elf sim and join a guild with a sky slot that you like, and stay for 6 months or however long it takes to save DKP and win the stuff you want. Probably the easiest route all things considered. Plus it will be transactional - you'll be helping the guild you decide to join.

Shouldn't have to leave a guild you already are banging out targets with that you've developed friendships with. The player made agreement should be changed to benefit everyone, including those not within the agreement.

Stands to say, those in the agreement want a monopoly of the zone and that's quite a selfish outlook.

[loramin]

Shouldn't have to leave a guild you already are banging out targets with that you've developed friendships with. The player made agreement should be changed to benefit everyone, including those not within the agreement.

Stands to say, those in the agreement want a monopoly of the zone and that's quite a selfish outlook.

We're on page 11 and you still haven't listed so much as a single guild.

[Foxplay]

We're on page 11 and you still haven't listed so much as a single guild.

Obviously a guild or personal reputation that asking to tag along with another guild and communicating is beneath him/her, or fears they will say no because of their guild tag that they won't even bother trying...

[paulgiamatti]

I'm not in the agreement for the record. And I'm not saying you have to join a guild with a sky slot you like, just that that's your best option for getting them shiny sky pixels. After that it's negotiation - start up a dialog with guilds who have slots you want and see if something can be worked out. AG used to do sky during the a.m., for example. With enough incentive they might be willing to make some concessions. Wedging in a couple FFA days is certainly an option, though not one that's on the table currently because you will never get a guild to forfeit their slot to accommodate a FFA day under a player-made agreement. The rotation is exclusive, not selfish. It's founded on consensus building - some guilds didn't want it, some did, some didn't care and everyone wound up benefiting from it all the same.

There are also technical concerns about opening up sky in this way - it could be the straw that breaks the rather precarious player-made agreement's back. GM enforcement is contingent on player cooperation - if too many guilds just say "fuck it, FFA sky" then Sirken et al will just say "fuck it, FFA sky". There are also mechanical concerns which I'm not very well-versed in, but you can completely rule out a OoA laissez-faire arrangement to maximize NDs with even a single FFA day. Not to mention other sky wonkiness - do you really want to see island 4 horse-birds permaparked at the zone in to instakill competition 24/7? Trust me, P99 can make it happen, and much more. It seems like at this point though you aren't really even arguing for your own interests and more just arguing to win the argument - it's incredibly unlikely you'd see much sky time even with a couple FFA days as the whole zone would be a shitshow for the entirety of those 48 hours. But I'm not going to dismiss FFA days altogether, it's an interesting idea even if it wouldn't serve your interests.

[paulgiamatti]

it's incredibly unlikely you'd see much sky time even with a couple FFA days as the whole zone would be a shitshow for the entirety of those 48 hours. But I'm not going to dismiss FFA days altogether, it's an interesting idea even if it wouldn't serve your interests.

Actually I'm probably overestimating overall interest in sky here, but there'd definitely be some shitshow moments, and god I would hate to be on the receiving end of those petitions. Staff would probably just have to designate sky no holds barred during those days, and that goes back to the slippery slope argument. All it takes is one or two guilds with petty grudges to destroy an agreement.

[Foxplay]

I'd love to see people just as you say "just fuck it" and try to FFA sky again player cooperative agreements, cause I bet sirken can doll out mass suspensions just as easily as he can piledrive silly threads like this in a single post

[deezy]

We're on page 11 and you still haven't listed so much as a single guild.

rustle

[shuklak]

Tldr p99 to agnarr

[MagpieRockyl]

Sky is a place where you meet sick losers 2018

[arsenalpow]

Yes, police sky. Pay no attention to every other locked down raid zone. Nothing to see here.

[fan D]

and people say red server is toxic


yall are pathetic lmao

[Shinko]

Yes, police sky. Pay no attention to every other locked down raid zone. Nothing to see here.

popo chest

[Mead]

and people say red server is toxic


yall are pathetic lmao

red is toxic because the average IQ is roughly the same a highway speed limit (imperial not metric) and so they really don't know how to communicate like civilized beings

blue is toxic because every other asshole thinks they're moar woke and attempt to prove that

[Swish2]

Yes, police sky. Pay no attention to every other locked down raid zone. Nothing to see here.

You voted with your feet, remember?

Welcome back. There's enough pixels for everyone. Want to unfold your arms and join the people having fun on the server?

[Bboboo]

Got here late, did anyone say wouldn't happen on red yet?

[Stroboo]

We're on page 11 and you still haven't listed so much as a single guild.

More then that now - and let’s not forget what prompted this thread, and the others like it

A group made a judgement call to go to sky even though they knew it was against the rules

Then got in trouble

Then cried and cried and cried about it....

If they would not have got to sky in the first place their ego’s would not have been damaged and this would not even be an issue.

[Swish2]

Clue would be much farther in PoSky if the kittens who say meow led paradigm shift raids would stop wiping on island 2

That message lacks substance, I'm sure you were about to add a youtube link to fraps footage or screenshots.

[Hyjalx]

I was against this 5 years ago, and I still am today.
However, sky does suck so I understand it.

The sky rotation needs to be edited with at least 1 or 2 FFA days. Go play WoW if you want instanced gaming.

Forcing people to be in certain guilds on certain days to see classic content is beyond retarded. At least give folks who want to remain with their friends a chance.

Weekends, at the very least, should be FFA for obvious reasons.

[Hyjalx]

For those who are dense.....

Obvious reasons = most people (the majority) work Monday-Friday

[Hyjalx]

The only issue here is greed. If an agreement can't be made which guilds fit into the schedule, expand the schedule. Instead of guild 'A' doing sky every single Monday, have them rotate Mondays with another guild. (Maybe this is already done?)

Twice a month is more than enough sky for 1 guild.

FFA on weekends for those that want to play with friends or are not part of any certain entity.

This really isn't that hard. Its 2018 and this is classic content.

[Holyhawk]

So basically there isn't a single guild on the server that wants a sky slot that doesn't already have one, and the farm crews want saturday and sunday to farm MQs.

[DinoTriz]

I'm unguilded but I want a Sky day for myself.

Just me.

[Hyjalx]

Gotcha. Even though I don't particularly like the farm crews, they should have a say in this as well. This is Everquest, and rotations should be limited. It's what makes this game unique.

But given the logistics of Sky, rotating the zone definitely make sense so these same farm crews can't monopolize the higher islands, which they will most certainly try to do if the rotation broke down.

I am only suggesting making the sky rotation a bi-weekly thing only because this will not only open up plenty of slots for future guilds to enter sky, but it will also allow friends and other entities not part of the rotation to have more access to the zone.

[loramin]

That fact that people think its OK to say they someone should have to join a different guild to do Sky, is absolutely retarded.

What about the fact that you have to join a different guild to do Sleeper's Tomb? Veeshan's Peak? Kill Yelinak or Tormax? Is that "absolutely retarded" also?

[Heebs13]

What about the fact that you have to join a different guild to do Sleeper's Tomb? Veeshan's Peak? Kill Yelinak or Tormax? Is that "absolutely retarded" also?

This entire thread is absolutely retarded, that's for sure. 13 pages in and still not a single guild named that needs a sky slot (and for some reason can't take one of the 3 open slots), but we keep hearing "BUT WHAT IF A GUILD WANTS A SLOT?!?!!11"

If you want to raid sky, ask for one of the open slots or join a guild that has a slot. Otherwise you're complaining just to complain.

[MagpieRockyl]

don't go to sky lol

[Aadill]

1) A guild with a slot that doesn't go on their slotted time isn't punished for not going.
2) A guild that may or may not exist wants a slot, which there are 3 currently free ones.
3) A group or guild that may not want to deal with slots wants to not have to communicate with an entity who does have a time slot because reasons. (?)

To me the solution is simple - if you have a slot and don't go, you lose the slot. 3 strikes of the slot not being used and you're out. You can share the slot with other guilds without slots but maybe make a limit to how many times you can do that before you lose the privilege of owning it.
Don't have a slot? ask to rotate with another guild so the slot isn't left open. Or simply take over their slot by using communication skills.

Don't want any of that? Someone mentioned it earlier - open enrollment. Pick a block of time and now you're stuck with it until the block is over. No guild can have more than X number of slots over Y weeks.

[kotton05]

red is toxic because the average IQ is roughly the same a highway speed limit (imperial not metric) and so they really don't know how to communicate like civilized beings

blue is toxic because every other asshole thinks they're moar woke and attempt to prove that

omg so eloquent :D

[Jimjam]

If you don’t use it, you lose it.

I like that.

Agreed,

Joining a player agreement that you are going to use sky every week, then habitually not using it, is breaking a player agreement and depriving other good p99ers of an opportunity to use the zone, which could be construed as monopolisation.

[MagpieRockyl]

coverjudge stop revealing that you're an individual intimate with the ongoings of p99 raid scene on June 11th, 2018. it's a pathetic look.

hope this helps

[Heebs13]

Hah, I don't raid sky, son. I'm sure there's plenty who know about Skuc joining kittens and PS wiping on island 2 this weekend...
Let's lack some more substance....BONUS...guess who warmed up for a sky wipe with a vindi wipe this weekend? Hint: it actually wasn't AM

Who the fuck cares?

[loramin]

If you don’t use it, you lose it.

I like that.

I'm not a guild leader/officer, so grains of salt are required, but I'm pretty sure that's how things have been working for the past two years, albeit in a less formal fashion. My guild leadership has definitely told us that "if we stop going to sky we'll lose our slot", and I would think most other guilds have the same understanding.

But again it's been less formal, so I think it's been less of a "you miss ___ times and you lose your slot", and more of a "no one cares what you do until someone else wants your slot, but if someone wants it and you haven't been going you lose it" (which is usually non-controversial because if you're not using your slot, you probably don't mind losing it).

[MagpieRockyl]

et touche brutus

[loramin]

Are ST, VP, Yelinak, and Tormax all set to be rotated by only certain guilds and if you engage them and aren't in those guilds you're breaking a rule?

Practically speaking you need to change guilds to do any of the content I listed; it doesn't matter whether it's because of a GM-enforced player-made agreement or because only a few guilds have the people and knowledge: either way it's the same net effect ...

... well, except that if you want to do top content there are only two or three options to choose from, whereas if you want to do Sky there are like ten.

The point is, guilds aren't just social clubs. You join a raid guild in EQ to join a team that's taking on multiplayer content. If you pick a team that can't take on top content, then you can't take on top content unless you change teams. It's very simple and it's not at all unfair.

Similarly if you want to raid Sky, but you're in an entirely hypothetical guild which doesn't want to take an open slot, doesn't want to wait for a new open slot, and doesn't want to work together with any existing Sky guild, then you also have to change teams.

[paulgiamatti]

That fact that people think its OK to say they someone should have to join a different guild to do Sky, is absolutely retarded.

No one said this. I did say that OP should join a guild with a slot that he likes or negotiate for a slot that he likes, but not that anyone should have to. I also said that FFA days is an interesting idea though probably not one that would achieve the results he's hoping for. I'd probably vote in favor of FFA days just to see what would happen, but as already stated P99 is not a democracy - staff would have to be on board and pick the FFA days and wait for whichever guilds are slotted on those days to fall off the rotation, which could take years even if that system was put in place today.

So yeah, maybe the rotation has its flaws and some FFA sky time would be good for the server. But as retarded as it may or may not be, opting to boot some guilds off of a longstanding rotation to wedge in those days would be infinitely retardeder.

[Thugnuts]

WTS Plane of Sky slot rights. PM primetime EST slot.

Will entertain bids starting at 35k or more per weekly use. Once we've established a reasonable weekly cost, can perhaps negotiate a slight discount for back-to-back or long-term reservations.

[paulgiamatti]

That fact that people think its OK to say they someone should have to join a different guild to do Sky, is absolutely retarded.

No one said this. I did say that OP should join a guild with a slot that he likes or negotiate for a slot that he likes, but not that anyone should have to. I also said that FFA days is an interesting idea though probably not one that would achieve the results he's hoping for. I'd probably vote in favor of FFA days just to see what would happen, but as already stated P99 is not a democracy - staff would have to be on board and pick the FFA days and wait for whichever guilds are slotted on those days to fall off the rotation, which could take years even if that system was put in place today.

So yeah, maybe the rotation has its flaws and some FFA sky time would be good for the server. But as retarded as it may or may not be, opting to boot some guilds off of a longstanding rotation to wedge in those days would be infinitely retardeder.

[Gozuk]

is there really that much competition on the blue server for plane of sky?

really?

Stop

[sereal]

What about the fact that you have to join a different guild to do Sleeper's Tomb? Veeshan's Peak? Kill Yelinak or Tormax? Is that "absolutely retarded" also?

Only difference is - at least in theory - you can convince your guild, or make a new guild, and start contesting that shit. Sky? you get a ban because it's a GM enforced rotation.

Have any of the farm krews or guilds who would like a spot who don't have one spoken up? Or is everyone just stirring up shit based on the one instance of a guild getting screwed because they didn't see the point in pixels going to waste?

[Wonkie]

interesting hypothetical but what about, my ass?

[Lojik]

Can you imagine eating a ban cause you're contesting Thunder Princess or some shit? Lol. Seriously though why do people care about fucking sky it's sooooooooo boring...even by EQ standards.

GM enforced rotation is probably so more people don't bore themselves to death.

[Swish2]

Only difference is - at least in theory - you can convince your guild, or make a new guild, and start contesting that shit. Sky? you get a ban because it's a GM enforced rotation.

Have any of the farm krews or guilds who would like a spot who don't have one spoken up? Or is everyone just stirring up shit based on the one instance of a guild getting screwed because they didn't see the point in pixels going to waste?

Enable pvp in Sky and let the community decide from there.

[deezy]

Can you imagine eating a ban cause you're contesting Thunder Princess or some shit? Lol. Seriously though why do people care about fucking sky it's sooooooooo boring...even by EQ standards.

GM enforced rotation is probably so more people don't bore themselves to death.

keeper of souls is the reason

[sereal]

Enable pvp in Sky and let the community decide from there.

They should do this in every zone with FTA mobs.

[Swish2]

They should do this in every zone with FTA mobs.

https://i.imgur.com/B21UZRK.png

[Swish2]

Enable it, and if a guild chooses not to PvP well then that's their loss.