40 day raid ban

[Jauna]

Why not.. go guildless at this point? Leave awakened, use a voice chat to communicate, says and shouts for rotations.

yeah awakened is banned, but individual players?

I ask this because there is like a 70% chance the GMs have something in the pocket to reban you for 50 days after the 40 days is up.

[Vianna]

Because they have a neat tool that shows them the full roster of the guild. You can't circumvent these things.

[Pezy]

Or form a new guild under new (better) leadership and start with a clean slate.

[Jauna]

Which is the problem, why do they all have to suffer for one or two people?

[zula]

There have been incidents in the past where people whose guilds were raid banned left their guilds and killed raid mobs then received account suspensions for violating the raid ban. It sucks but that's how it is: everyone who was a member of Awakened at the time of the ban is raid banned for 40 days, guild or no guild.

[Foxplay]

Bypassing their raid suspension on an organized group level would probably get them an even longer suspension and not talking raid suspension like actual suspension for each player

Would be like if they all disbanded and formed <Awokened> would be violating the intent of a GM ruling which is way worse

[Thunderjunky]

Because they have a neat tool that shows them the full roster of the guild. You can't circumvent these things.

And I'm sure they can correlate the date of the ban post with the date of the /guildremove.

[loramin]

Why not.. join a guild that doesn't earn raid bans?

[Foxplay]

Why not.. join a guild that doesn't earn raid bans?

So dial a port?

[loramin]

Well I don't want to be the guy who casts the first stone and realizes he's inside a glass house (to mix metaphors), so let me qualify that this is "as far as I know "... but for as long as I've been in Anonymous (well over a year) I haven't heard of us getting disciplined in any way.

That makes perfect sense to me because I've seen how our leadership handles frustrating situations (like another guild clearly training us in ToV): they keep their cool and tell everyone else in the guild to do the same. Some leaders do that, and some leaders act like the ones in the guild that trained us.

Now I'm not trying to say that everyone should join Anonymous, or that our leaders are perfect, but I do think that when a guild's leadership has a history of earning bans people should abandon those leaders/guilds and give a guild without a history of bans a try.

[Jauna]

And what would you do if one monk earns Anonymous a raid ban?

Just saying, 30 days was bad enough, but getting another 40 for something that happened a month ago and high chance of getting another 50 for something that happened months ago for EVERYONE is bullshit.

Start taking away pixels from individuals who fuck up

[Pheer]

Why not.. go guildless at this point? Leave awakened, use a voice chat to communicate, says and shouts for rotations.

yeah awakened is banned, but individual players?

I ask this because there is like a 70% chance the GMs have something in the pocket to reban you for 50 days after the 40 days is up.

>implying that this is possible without eating a perma ban

>implying that after 8+ years of autism levels of raid competition that nobody would have thought of doing this if it were possible

[Jauna]

I mean just flat out being guildless at all times. I cant imagine taking a few days off for whatever reason and coming back to being banned to something I was not even apart of.

[Pezy]

And what would you do if one monk earns Anonymous a raid ban?

Just saying, 30 days was bad enough, but getting another 40 for something that happened a month ago and high chance of getting another 50 for something that happened months ago for EVERYONE is bullshit.

Start taking away pixels from individuals who fuck up

This is just how things work here. Mistakes happen, and I'm sure the people responsible feel bad. It falls on the guilds leadership though to take the steps necessary to avoid being suspended. The blame lies solely on the shoulders of Eratani and Breaken here, not Tankzor or Bruize.

[Sonderbeast]

Everyone make your own guilds, then join together in a confederacy of guilds which remain to only be one person in size in which we will draw up a bill of rights and orders by which each member of the confederacy of guilds should choose to, or not choose to abide by. There will be a small federal commission of individuals who will oversee a Glorious Peoples Dragon Kill Poins, and thus will organize the masses whilst CIRCUMVENTING the need of large guilds with one or two leaders (who mind you are just gamers, not goddam leaders) and allowing for EVERY GAMER to live UNDER the GODS INDIVISIBLE... one sec.

alt tabs

finishes turn on Hearthstone before robe burns

ok so lets ban OP.

[indiscriminate_hater]

RIP stormfeather camp

[Tupakk]

Well I don't want to be the guy who casts the first stone and realizes he's inside a glass house (to mix metaphors), so let me qualify that this is "as far as I know "... but for as long as I've been in Anonymous (well over a year) I haven't heard of us getting disciplined in any way.

That makes perfect sense to me because I've seen how our leadership handles frustrating situations (like another guild clearly training us in ToV): they keep their cool and tell everyone else in the guild to do the same. Some leaders do that, and some leaders act like the ones in the guild that trained us.

Now I'm not trying to say that everyone should join Anonymous, or that our leaders are perfect, but I do think that when a guild's leadership has a history of earning bans people should abandon those leaders/guilds and give a guild without a history of bans a try.

I love mouse an Anon and recognize them as my first guild but y’all don’t take chances so ya never get a chance to get banned.


And Fox DaP raids all the time. We raid those Pockets...... HEYYYYYYYY OOOOOO

[Swish2]

Everyone make your own guilds...

Think Azrael members tried this on red, loads of 1-2 man guilds popped up and Sireken went through and did a purge of all guilds under X amount of active members.

RIP <More Cowbell>, my own creation and the box's best 1 man guild of all time.

[d3r14k]

Why not.. join a guild that doesn't earn raid bans?

So dial a port?

YES! My name is Tuluven and I approve this message.

Join <Dial a Port> today and never receive a raid ban!

[Trungep99]

So dial a port?

Some friends of mine told me dial a port is having drama. So join taxi, their new rival to keep the port monopoly down and make the greedy porters take a lower wage for service.

[Jenithia]

Why would there be drama in DaP? You literally log in, do some ports to make some plat, and log off when you're bored.

[Raavak]

Why is there drama in Jersey Shore? You get drunk, get laid, get paid.

Drama happens because some people love drama.

[Bboboo]

So dial a port?

Imagine the guild being banned from porting to certain spires/rings

[d3r14k]

Some friends of mine told me dial a port is having drama. So join taxi, their new rival to keep the port monopoly down and make the greedy porters take a lower wage for service.

I'm logged in a good portion of the time on my DaPper, so I feel safe saying: There is no drama other than what you bring with you.

As for Taxi, good luck to them. Calling them "rival" is pretty generous. Seems a bit like calling a team of pee-wee football kiddos a rival to a team of primed, trained NFL professionals.

[Nagoya]

Ouch, you consider DaP to be like professional NFL players? No offense but you guys are the port bitches of the server ^^;

[loramin]

y’all don’t take chances so ya never get a chance to get banned.

Isn't that the exact point I'm trying to make? Some guild leaders take chances that could get their guild suspended, some don't. If you don't like getting suspended, pick a guild leader who doesn't roll the dice when it comes to breaking the rules.

[Troxx]

Which is the problem, why do they all have to suffer for one or two people?

Because the others chose to follow them.

[Legidias]

Raid ban guild, account ban (suspension) the main offenders!

[Troxx]

And what would you do if one monk earns Anonymous a raid ban?

Just saying, 30 days was bad enough, but getting another 40 for something that happened a month ago and high chance of getting another 50 for something that happened months ago for EVERYONE is bullshit.

Start taking away pixels from individuals who fuck up

30-40 day raid bans don't just drop out of the sky. The rules clearly state that repeat violators will be subject to more harsh punishment for further infractions. These lengthy bans are the result of a long history of prior punishments for the guild in question.

As for the "common man" within the raid-banned guild? Well, when you choose to wear the guild tag and capitalize on the benefits the guild gives you - you're also willfully choosing to align yourself with the actions/policies/behavior of those who lead you. You are no longer innocent. If you disagree with how your leaders behave, you vote with your feet and leave.

[Linksfather]

Some friends of mine told me dial a port is having drama. So join taxi, their new rival to keep the port monopoly down and make the greedy porters take a lower wage for service.

No use <UBER>. All ports are a flat rate 5pp for Norath, 10pp for Kunark and 15pp for Velious & Evak. 1-5 people. Same low price

[Linksfather]

Download the P99 UBER app today for those late night Euro needing ports today

[Sonderbeast]

Think Azrael members tried this on red, loads of 1-2 man guilds popped up and Sireken went through and did a purge of all guilds under X amount of active members.

RIP <More Cowbell>, my own creation and the box's best 1 man guild of all time.

I guess I'm not so clever. Funny story tho.:D

[Bruno]

circumvent your ban but not playing in this shithole

[Bruno]

by*

[Detoxx]

Isn't that the exact point I'm trying to make? Some guild leaders take chances that could get their guild suspended, some don't. If you don't like getting suspended, pick a guild leader who doesn't roll the dice when it comes to breaking the rules.

The problem here is it is not mutually exclusive. A / A takes chances while killing raid mobs, Anonymous does this much less. As the saying goes: if you play with fire, you're going to get burnt.

[Supreme]

Think Azrael members tried this on red, loads of 1-2 man guilds popped up and Sireken went through and did a purge of all guilds under X amount of active members.

RIP <More Cowbell>, my own creation and the box's best 1 man guild of all time.

RIP <Piranhas on Land>

[Troxx]

The problem here is it is not mutually exclusive. A / A takes chances while killing raid mobs, Anonymous does this much less. As the saying goes: if you play with fire, you're going to get burnt.

Why do you have to 'take chances' with mobs you've already killed a few dozen times?

I appreciate your honesty with this post ... but honestly ... what's the point?

[Moerne]

Ouch, you consider DaP to be like professional NFL players? No offense but you guys are the port bitches of the server ^^;

Port whores of the server, thank you very much. We get paid for it, we don't give it away for free (unless you need a CR, or you are friends/family, or a newbie, or etc. etc.)

[loramin]

The problem here is it is not mutually exclusive. A / A takes chances while killing raid mobs, Anonymous does this much less. As the saying goes: if you play with fire, you're going to get burnt.

I keep repeating "if you don't want to be suspended, don't join guild that break the rules", and people keep coming back with "well it's apples and oranges, because Anonymous doesn't try to break the rules."

That is exactly what I'm saying! Anonymous isn't missing out on Tormax and similar A/A targets because we don't break the rules, we're missing out because we don't have enough people on at the right times to take those targets. But if we had enough, we absolutely could take them without breaking the rules, as could any guild of the appropriate size.

No one has to break the rules. Everytime a guild does so their leadership is making a calculated decision to break the rules in order to have a better chance at mob X (or to get back at another guild for taking mob X). But they don't have to make those choices, and if they didn't (as plenty of other guilds somehow manage to do) they wouldn't eat suspensions.

This isn't rocket science.

[Detoxx]

Why do you have to 'take chances' with mobs you've already killed a few dozen times?

I appreciate your honesty with this post ... but honestly ... what's the point?

Mistakes happen. It's the same as when you go outside and drive to work. Every day you drive you take a chance of getting into an accident. The polls and stuff we do are where most of the mistakes happen, not the encounter themselves.

[Bruno]

I keep repeating "if you don't want to be suspended, don't join guild that break the rules", and people keep coming back with "well it's apples and oranges, because Anonymous doesn't try to break the rules."

That is exactly what I'm saying! Anonymous isn't missing out on Tormax and similar A/A targets because we don't break the rules, we're missing out because we don't have enough people on at the right times to take those targets. But if we had enough, we absolutely could take them without breaking the rules, as could any guild of the appropriate size.

No one has to break the rules. Everytime a guild does so their leadership is making a calculated decision to break the rules in order to have a better chance at mob X (or to get back at another guild for taking mob X). But they don't have to make those choices, and if they didn't (as plenty of other guilds somehow manage to do) they wouldn't eat suspensions.

This isn't rocket science.

It's always been about what they can get away with within the rules, or get away with without being caught, and how good you can make yourself look on the forums while doing it. The best thing you can do is just enjoy being really casual or get out of this joint

[Detoxx]

I keep repeating "if you don't want to be suspended, don't join guild that break the rules", and people keep coming back with "well it's apples and oranges, because Anonymous doesn't try to break the rules."

That is exactly what I'm saying! Anonymous isn't missing out on Tormax and similar A/A targets because we don't break the rules, we're missing out because we don't have enough people on at the right times to take those targets. But if we had enough, we absolutely could take them without breaking the rules, as could any guild of the appropriate size.

No one has to break the rules. Everytime a guild does so their leadership is making a calculated decision to break the rules in order to have a better chance at mob X (or to get back at another guild for taking mob X). But they don't have to make those choices, and if they didn't (as plenty of other guilds somehow manage to do) they wouldn't eat suspensions.

This isn't rocket science.

That is just completely false. If KT spawned at 6pm est on a Sunday and you wanted to compete in it and kill it you absolutely could. Does that mean you dont risk making a mistake during this time? No. Because no one is perfect. If you think that you could flawlessly kill any target you ever wanted to but dont just because you dont have the force, you are sadly mistaken.

[Detoxx]

You all have this twisted reality that we just cheat and break rules on purpose. The problem is never breaking the rule, the problem is making it right after. A petition for a train would never happen if the offending guild agrees they made a mistake and concede the mob.

[loramin]

That is just completely false. If KT spawned at 6pm est on a Sunday and you wanted to compete in it and kill it you absolutely could. Does that mean you dont risk making a mistake during this time? No. Because no one is perfect. If you think that you could flawlessly kill any target you ever wanted to but dont just because you dont have the force, you are sadly mistaken.

I'm pretty sure that even on 6pm EST on a Sunday we don't can't get enough people there fast enough. I could be wrong (I'm not an officer or anything), but either way what Anon can or can't do really isn't the point.

As for killing things "flawlessly" and "without mistakes", of course not: we make mistakes on Plane of Air mobs, I highly doubt we could do Tormax or Yelinak or whoever without making some mistakes. But making mistakes is not the same as breaking the rules.

The point is, you and a few others seem to think it's impossible to raid on P99 without breaking the rules, but it's not. It's 100% possible. The staff didn't create these rules as some kind of evil Machivalean trap, and this 15+ year old game is not so hard that you have to cheat to win it.

Play by the rules, or eat suspensions, it's a simple choice.

[Check12345]

I keep repeating "if you don't want to be suspended, don't join guild that break the rules", and people keep coming back with "well it's apples and oranges, because Anonymous doesn't try to break the rules."

That is exactly what I'm saying! Anonymous isn't missing out on Tormax and similar A/A targets because we don't break the rules, we're missing out because we don't have enough people on at the right times to take those targets. But if we had enough, we absolutely could take them without breaking the rules, as could any guild of the appropriate size.

No one has to break the rules. Everytime a guild does so their leadership is making a calculated decision to break the rules in order to have a better chance at mob X (or to get back at another guild for taking mob X). But they don't have to make those choices, and if they didn't (as plenty of other guilds somehow manage to do) they wouldn't eat suspensions.

This isn't rocket science.

I think there is a disconnect here. If you want to kill an NToV dragon with the current raid rules/situation, you have to insta pull or lose.

All of the 'rule breaking' as you put it stems from mistakes made during the pull.

Anonymous would still miss out unless they competed for the same target, using the same pull methods, taking the same risks. Otherwise you get smoked.

[Check12345]

All of the 'rule breaking' as you put it stems from mistakes made during the pull.


Having said that, shit can just get straight crazy on some of these pulls. Especially if there are multiple attempts to salvage things as they go off the rails. That's usually where a 'mistake' happens.

[Wonkie]

drama on tak consists of a guy who types 'moo' in global chat and the people who hate him

[Tupakk]

I'm pretty sure that even on 6pm EST on a Sunday we don't can't get enough people there fast enough. I could be wrong (I'm not an officer or anything), but either way what Anon can or can't do really isn't the point.

As for killing things "flawlessly" and "without mistakes", of course not: we make mistakes on Plane of Air mobs, I highly doubt we could do Tormax or Yelinak or whoever without making some mistakes. But making mistakes is not the same as breaking the rules.

The point is, you and a few others seem to think it's impossible to raid on P99 without breaking the rules, but it's not. It's 100% possible. The staff didn't create these rules as some kind of evil Machivalean trap, and this 15+ year old game is not so hard that you have to cheat to win it.

Play by the rules, or eat suspensions, it's a simple choice.


When I said take chances this is an example of y’all not. I didn’t mean go to Ntov and cheat 2 win. I meant go and compete and race and all that jazz. You talk about Sky mobs but if you fuck that up you wipe yourself. Consider this everytime you wipe your guild doing something “petiton” yourself and this you will see how hard it is not to “cheat”.

[loramin]

Honestly, I like you, and your posts
:D (and likewise)

but here you have no idea what you're talking about. Making mistakes is breaking the rules. Any experience in the raid scene would make it obvious that the rules are subjective and completely at the whim of the guys upstairs. None of it usually makes any sense, fortunately that is the one constant. Awakened isn't gone, because of some technicality. It is gone because of poor leadership decisions that lead to the subjective rules being enforced. That is the reality of this server, and that's why we all need to stop pretending there is any type of real competition going on.

When I said take chances this is an example of y’all not. I didn’t mean go to Ntov and cheat 2 win. I meant go and compete and race and all that jazz. You talk about Sky mobs but if you fuck that up you wipe yourself. Consider this everytime you wipe your guild doing something “petiton” yourself and this you will see how hard it is not to “cheat”.

It is gone because of poor leadership decisions

This is the crux of it to me. Do I have experience competing for Yelinak? Nope. Am I the master of P99 raid rules? Far from it.

But I don't need any of that to know that people have a choice about how they run their guild. They can make efforts to not break the rules, including doing as much as possible to make sure "accidents" don't happen, and then follow the rules for correcting mistakes on the rare occasions that accidents do happen ...

... or they can try their hardest to win every competition, break the rules in the process, and get suspended.

You can (very easily) convince me that I'm not an experienced raider, but you can't convince me that the rules here are so complex, so convoluted, and so hard-to-understand that it is impossible for a guild to compete for top content without breaking those rules.

If you believe that you're essentially saying that Rogean and Sirken are so stupid they made the server rules impossible to follow, and I don't think they're that stupid.

[Tupakk]

If everyone could do it there would be more guilds doing it.

Even the lower content y’all don’t do. Many many many times I’ve poked Anon leaders to come up to atleast my level of what I call raiding. Just for some friendly competition. When BGA was a thing I loved it. You need to sip the koolaid and come play.

[jpetrick]

Loramin you should just app either A/A guild for a few weeks to learn before you armchair quarterback what you think the raid scene is actually like.

[d3r14k]

Rogean and Sirken are so stupid they made the server rules impossible to follow

I'm saving this snip to use out of context at a later date. Blackmail + STAFF BASHING!

[loramin]

Loramin you should just app either A/A guild for a few weeks to learn before you armchair quarterback what you think the raid scene is actually like.

You're clearly not listening to what I'm saying. It wouldn't matter if I was in the old Kittens guild (the one that didn't raid). It wouldn't matter if I had never even played here, and had only read Rogean's and Sirken's posts. I still wouldn't believe that Rogean and Sirken are stupid enough to create rules such that guilds can't raid top-end content without breaking them.

Does playing by the rules make it harder to compete? I'm sure (again, without even being in A/A). Do the A/A guilds have a strong incentive to break the rules if they want to get more pixels? Again, not in A/A so I don't know, but I'd imagine so.

But none of that changes the fact that guild leaders can choose to play by the rules. If you want to convince me that it's in fact impossible for them to play by the rules, and that leaders have no choice and must break the rules, then someone show me a rule that you have to break to compete.

[jpetrick]

You're clearly not listening to what I'm saying. It wouldn't matter if I was in the old Kittens guild (the one that didn't raid). It wouldn't matter if I had never even played here, and had only read Rogean's and Sirken's posts. I still wouldn't believe that Rogean and Sirken are stupid enough to create rules such that guilds can't raid top-end content without breaking them.

Does playing by the rules make it harder to compete? I'm sure (again, without even being in A/A). Do the A/A guilds have a strong incentive to break the rules if they want to get more pixels? Again, not in A/A so I don't know, but I'd imagine so.

But none of that changes the fact that guild leaders can choose to play by the rules. If you want to convince me that it's in fact impossible for them to play by the rules, and that leaders have no choice and must break the rules, then someone show me a rule that you have to break to compete.

You just don't understand what it looks like when two guilds are competing for the same mob. You would benefit from seeing it first hand so you wouldn't go off spouting misinformation.

[Check12345]

but you can't convince me that the rules here are so complex, so convoluted, and so hard-to-understand that it is impossible for a guild to compete for top content without breaking those rules.


Tag along on a raid, bind sight to a bard or monk (whoever has FTE duty) before they get cothed up.
Watch the aary prep area for secondaries, and four way when targets get tagged, watch the picture room where adds are 'goal-tended'.

Once you see the process for yourself, you will see how fluid things can get once a ton of mobs get dragged all around ToV.

No matter the guild, sometimes 'plan a' ends up with a train in the entrance. And that's a 'broken rule', regardless of what tag is over your head.

If you want to debate leadership incident handling after the fact, sure go ahead, but the bottom line is you will end up 'breaking the rules' if you want to play the current raiding game, sooner or later.

Just wanted to try to clear things up.

[loramin]

Look, either:

A) guild leaders have a choice, and can follow the rules and still raid

or

B) guild leaders have no choice and they have to break the rules to compete

If it's really B) then why is it so hard for someone to quote even single rule that supports that theory? I mean if B) is really the case, you'd think there would be a whole bunch of obvious rules you could quote.

Or to put it another way, if you really think Sirken and Rogean are idiots, and they made impossible to follow rules, then come out and say why you think that. Don't just attack me, I'm only a straw man: attack the idea I'm pushing, that leaders have a choice to follow the rules.

[Argh]

Look, either:

A) guild leaders have a choice, and can follow the rules and still raid

or

B) guild leaders have no choice and they have to break the rules to compete

If it's really B) then why is it so hard for someone to quote even single rule that supports that theory? I mean if B) is really the case, you'd think there would be a whole bunch of obvious rules you could quote.

Or to put it another way, if you really think Sirken and Rogean are idiots, and they made impossible to follow rules, then come out and say why you think that. Don't just attack me, I'm only a straw man: attack the idea I'm pushing, that leaders have a choice to follow the rules.

You've created some weird straw man argument that nobody is actually arguing.

[jpetrick]

You're being an idiot now just for the sake of it. It has been explained to you in multiple posts that no one is out there attempting to break the rules willfully. Rules get broken because of mistakes that happen. You attempt to rectify those mistakes when they do happen. Players aren't perfect.

[loramin]

No matter the guild, sometimes 'plan a' ends up with a train in the entrance. And that's a 'broken rule', regardless of what tag is over your head.

See, I may be some dumb n00b who knows nothing about raiding, but even in a level 10 dungeon when you screw up you have a choice: die where you are or try to survive by running to zone and training people.

How is it any different when you screw up on a raid mob: you have the option to die where you are correct?

[Tupakk]

Die where you are around 10 other people... die where you are and wipe an entire FTE.


You are comparing apples to astronauts.

[jpetrick]

See, I may be some dumb n00b who knows nothing about raiding, but even in a level 10 dungeon when you screw up you have a choice: die where you are or try to survive by running to zone and training people.

How is it any different when you screw up on a raid mob: you have the option to die where you are correct?

You can die and still train people you moron.

[loramin]

You're being an idiot now just for the sake of it. It has been explained to you in multiple posts that no one is out there attempting to break the rules willfully. Rules get broken because of mistakes that happen. You attempt to rectify those mistakes when they do happen. Players aren't perfect.

And as I keep saying, no one is powerless here. You don't walk in to ToV and suddenly lose all control of your character. Guild leaders have choices, and they can make choices that lead to breaking the rules, or they can do things differently. No one has posted even a single rule that contradicts that; the best anyone has said is "we have to train so we have to break the no training rule".

And then there's the one thing you and everyone else keeps avoiding: Rogean and Sirken aren't morons. They created the raid rules, and if you truly believe that it's impossible to follow those rules and still raid, you're basically saying Rogean and Sirken are too stupid to write rules people can actually follow. So if you're going to make such a claim, back it up! Don't just say "you're a n00b who can't understand the hard life of an A/A raider", say "we have to break rule X because if we don't we can't compete."

[jpetrick]

Just stop commenting on the state of the raid scene, you are so far out of touch it's alarming.

[loramin]

Die where you are around 10 other people... die where you are and wipe an entire FTE.


You are comparing apples to astronauts.

So play by the rules, or risk losing a mob. Exactly what I've been saying all along.

[loramin]

Just stop commenting on the state of the raid scene, you are so far out of touch it's alarming.

So you think Rogean and Sirken are idiots who write impossible to follow rules, and I'm the one who's out of touch for thinking it's actually possible for guilds to play by the rules?

Ok.

[Argh]

So you think Rogean and Sirken are idiots who write impossible to follow rules, and I'm the one who's out of touch for thinking it's actually possible for guilds to play by the rules?

Ok.

Has anyone actually made the argument that you need to break the rules to raid except for you?

[Tupakk]

Don’t twist my words to make sense to yourself. You have a very Skewed perception on how raiding happens.

You have drank Mouses koolaid to much. I think you should remove foot from mouth and potatoe from ear and listen to what’s being said.

[jpetrick]

No one has said it's impossible to follow the rules. All we have said is that we try to follow the rules and attempt to remedy the situation when they are unintentionally broken.

This is the last time I'm responding to you. It's obvious you are getting off spouting fucking nonsense and I won't enable you further.

[Tupakk]

No one has said it's impossible to follow the rules. All we have said is that we try to follow the rules and attempt to remedy the situation when they are unintentionally broken.

This is the last time I'm responding to you. It's obvious you are getting off spouting fucking nonsense and I won't enable you further.

Indig 1 Lorastat 0

[Check12345]

See, I may be some dumb n00b who knows nothing about raiding, but even in a level 10 dungeon when you screw up you have a choice: die where you are or try to survive by running to zone and training people.

How is it any different when you screw up on a raid mob: you have the option to die where you are correct?

Ok no problem, here's the rub, I get it. We are trying to pull one raid target out of a train of, say >40 mobs. The potential melee damage output of that train is insane.

It's not about a simple train to zone out. Its picking off a target from that train, getting it in to camp to kill, and then safely dropping the train before they figure out where the trainers/secondaries went and mass murder the zone in. (Basically speaking)

When it goes off the rails, folks are going to die.

When done correctly, it's a thing of pure beauty and good feels team work.

Just tag along one night, ToV is an open zone.

[loramin]

Ok first, on the staff bashing, I'm putting it in a provocative way because I'm trying to make a point: I'm not trying to bait anyone to say Rogean is a moron. But what I do expect is for someone to respond to is the fact that:

A) smart people made the rules
B) people are claiming (do I really have to go back and quote this?) that it's impossible to raid at an A/A level without getting suspensions.
C) that sounds like some pretty dumb rules

So the reason I keep coming back to "Rogean and Sirken aren't morons" isn't because I want someone to bash them, it's because I want someone to address A, B, or C. Clearly one of them is false. I'm saying it's B), but it's fine if you disagree ... just disagree by addressing the issue (A and C), don't just keep pretending like some really smart people created some really dumb rules for no reason. There's plenty of ways to say "the rules are flawed here: ____" without calling Rogean an idiot.

As for all the stuff about how dumb I am, every time anyone debates the raid scene A/A (or TMO; yes I've been here awhile) attacks everyone who isn't "on their level". Shooting the messenger doesn't kill the message. Don't tell me how dumb and ignorant I am, just do something which should be super easy if what you're claiming is true: provide some evidence that it's impossible to raid top content without breaking the rules (on purpose or not).

[Tupakk]

Being dumb and acting dumb are two different things. You are currently acting dumb for the sake of not wanting to be dumb.

Don’t goto TOV to watch you will get Anon raid banned because you will undoubtedly make a mistake.

[loramin]

Ok no problem, here's the rub, I get it. We are trying to pull one raid target out of a train of, say >40 mobs. The potential melee damage output of that train is insane.

It's not about a simple train to zone out. Its picking off a target from that train, getting it in to camp to kill, and then safely dropping the train before they figure out where the trainers/secondaries went and mass murder the zone in. (Basically speaking)

When it goes off the rails, folks are going to die.

When done correctly, it's a thing of pure beauty and good feels team work.

Just tag along one night, ToV is an open zone.

First can I just say thank you for engaging the topic and not just insulting me? Sincere kudos to you.

So again, I'm an ignorant moron who knows nothing: can you please explain why you have to pull one mob out of the train (ie. why there's no other way to pull that mob), and why that train has to hit other guilds when something goes wrong? It seems to me that other pulling styles might be possible (but might be less competitive), so I'm genuinely asking: is it truly impossible to pull that mob any other way, and then impossible to avoid having it train people if the pull fails?

[Tupakk]

https://youtu.be/cjIvu7e6Wq8

Watch this whole video and raiding will be a explained to you.

[Detoxx]

You can (very easily) convince me that I'm not an experienced raider, but you can't convince me that the rules here are so complex, so convoluted, and so hard-to-understand that it is impossible for a guild to compete for top content without breaking those rules.

If you believe that you're essentially saying that Rogean and Sirken are so stupid they made the server rules impossible to follow, and I don't think they're that stupid.

There has been maybe 15 suspensions between A/A. At least 5 of them are not from each other. If you think about how many mobs we have killed in 2+ years, week in and week out, id vie to say that we "compete for top content without breaking those rules" far more often than not.

Its just like anything else. You never hear about the good shit on the news, you only hear the bad. Does that mean that there is no good in this world? I hope not.

[loramin]

Being dumb and acting dumb are two different things. You are currently acting dumb for the sake of not wanting to be dumb.

The "acting dumb for the sake of not wanting to be dumb" doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but look Hanlon's Razor man:

(although in this case I'd prefer the word "ignorance" over "stupidity" ...)

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for someone to explain why you have to break the rules to raid (Check12345 is the only one who even seems to be trying).

And I'm still waiting for someone to resolve the central paradox (without staff bashing please): if Rogean and Sirken are smart (unlike me) and do (also unlike me) know a lot about raiding, and if they did indeed write the rules ... and if it is indeed impossible to raid at an A/A level (but not at a lower level) without at least accidentally breaking those rules ... why did Rogean/Sirken make them that way?

[loramin]

https://youtu.be/cjIvu7e6Wq8

Watch this whole video and raiding will be a explained to you.

I just went to her concert a couple months ago (wife is a big fan).

[Check12345]

can you please explain why you have to pull one mob out of the train (ie. why there's no other way to pull that mob), and why that train has to hit other guilds when something goes wrong?

Ok np, this just comes down to what to do with all the mobs between the raid target and the kill camp. They have to go somewhere for a bit while the dragon is pulled from his spawn point to the chosen kill spot, which currently is the entrance for ToV.

The rest is just manipulating the ancient hate list mechanic we have in eq.

If things go wrong, sometimes some/all of the train will hit the entrance, and if your guild is there you will get wiped.

I want to say it happened with A/A at least once every other cycle or so.

[loramin]

There has been maybe 15 suspensions between A/A. At least 5 of them are not from each other. If you think about how many mobs we have killed in 2+ years, week in and week out, id vie to say that we "compete for top content without breaking those rules" far more often than not.

Its just like anything else. You never hear about the good shit on the news, you only hear the bad. Does that mean that there is no good in this world? I hope not.

All I've ever said in this entire conversation is that it's possible for guild leaders to make choices and avoid getting their guild suspended. I never said (or at least meant to say) that A/A was banned all the time or anything like that, and if I did I recant it.

[Detoxx]

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for someone to explain why you have to break the rules to raid (Check12345 is the only one who even seems to be trying).

And I'm still waiting for someone to resolve the central paradox (without staff bashing please): if Rogean and Sirken are smart (unlike me) and do (also unlike me) know a lot about raiding, and if they did indeed write the rules ... and if it is indeed impossible to raid at an A/A level (but not at a lower level) without at least accidentally breaking those rules ... why did Rogean/Sirken make them that way?

Are you deliberately being a troll here? You do not have to break the rules to raid, as you can see 96% of the time these raids are done without an issue and no rules are broken. The problem is...sometimes shit goes wrong and a rule gets broken (unintentionally).

Its like working at a chemical plant. 98% of the time the Operator does their job and does it well. Everyone is safe, everyone is happy. Then the next day a mistake is made and shit gets real bad. Did that person WANT to make a mistake and put peoples lives and their own at risk? I highly doubt it

So I reiterate...mistakes happen. It doesnt mean they are done on purpose. Actually, a mistake is the antithesis of something being done on purpose.

[loramin]

I'm still buzzing off the fact that this is an actual helpful discussion in RnF! :D

from his spawn point to the chosen kill spot, which currently is the entrance for ToV.


So there's nowhere else you could choose to kill the mob in all of ToV? Because if there was, you could guarantee you don't train the entrance by killing at that spot instead (even if it might be less harder/competitive to do that) ... right?

And then regardless of the above, do the rules really say "if you make a mistake doing this pull (whether you had to pull that way or not) you get suspended?" My understanding was that you could try and fix things, and you'd only broken the rules if you didn't do that (or kept training people).

I'm very much appreciating your explanation, but I'm still not seeing why A/A guilds have no choice but to get suspended. It still seems like their leaders have agency and can choose actions which would avoid suspensions.

[loramin]

*harder/less competitive

[Argh]

https://i.imgur.com/EtIXbCR.gif

[Phatez]

There is no place in ToV that you can kill a mob besides entrance that is a safe place to be Incase another mob spawns. If your raid is at exit and LTK spawns you are disqualified. If your raid is at Ikky safe hall and anything in north spawns you are disqualified.

Entrance is the only place you can be to kill mobs in TOV without being disqualified from future pops.

[loramin]

Here is a hypothetical for you Loramin. Tell me how Anon would respond. Please read and consider.

Both <Anonymous> and <Kittens Who Meow> are in arena and both want to kill Derakor the Vindicator. After some discussion neither guild is willing to back down and whoever pulls it first will likely get that sweet Vindi BP. Now, Kittens pull it first. The engage looks good, but they didn't properly set up rampage damage, and the raid is wiping. Vindi ends up socialing on Anonymous and wipes both guilds. Kittens, being the honorable guild they are, concedes this Vindi, and Anonymous is clear to make a pull. Kittens decided they want to keep farming coldain armor and they do not leave arena. At this point only Kittens and Anonymous are in the zone and Anonymous tries to make a pull. The pull goes bad and trains the Kittens who have already conceded the mob but stuck around.

Now, being there is no other competition in the zone does Anonymous.

A. Concede Vindi and walk away, even though there is no more competition in the zone.
B. Pull Vindi again, because the guild Anonymous trained already conceded and are no longer competing.
C. Offer to group with Kittens and kill the mob.

Genuinely interested in what you realistically think would happen.

Again, engagement, yay! :D

But what do I think? Well here's what I don't think: I don't think Rogean and Sirken made rules which make it impossible to raid Vindi when there's a group XPing nearby. Of course, if Anon doesn't take reasonable steps to avoid impacting the XP group (like say they pick a particular kill spot which is convenient over a less convenient one away from the XP group) they could get a suspension, but if they take all reasonable measures to avoid impacting the XP group I'm skeptical that Rogean's/Sirken's rules say they will get a suspension for it.

And even if that is the case, those are the rules, but that doesn't make them impossible to follow! If those really are the rules, Anon could play by the rules by hanging out until the XP group goes away, and risk losing their Vindi. Sounds lame, but then when the roles are reversed Kittens would have to do the same, and the key thing is that Anon would have chosen actions which don't lead to a suspension.

But again, while I'm not a rules lawyer or A/A member, I'm skeptical of the idea that a Kittens (or any other) XP group can make it impossible for another guild to raid Vindi without that raid potentially eating a suspension if anything goes wrong.

[loramin]

There is no place in ToV that you can kill a mob besides entrance that is a safe place to be Incase another mob spawns. If your raid is at exit and LTK spawns you are disqualified. If your raid is at Ikky safe hall and anything in north spawns you are disqualified.

Entrance is the only place you can be to kill mobs in TOV without being disqualified from future pops.

Ok, so it sounds like three possible options to me:

1) it's impossible to kill the mob anywhere but entrance, it's impossible to never screw up, and a screw up will definitely result in a suspension-causing train, making it impossible to kill that mob without risking a suspension unless no one is at entrance .... or ....

2) it's impossible to kill the mob anywhere but entrance, it's impossible to never screw up, and a screw up will definitely result in a train ... but the rules account for that (because that's the only place anyone can kill the mob) and just ensure that you do your best to minimize trains and take the appropriate steps to remedy them after they happen. As long as you do that, you don't have to fear suspension .... or ....

3) there are other places to kill the mob; yes they're less convenient, yes you'll have to track timers and if something goes wrong you'll have a spawn interrupting your already hard fight ... but none of that is impossible to follow, it just makes things harder (or easier if you break the rules)

Are you saying 1) is true and 2)/3) aren't? And even if #1 is true, don't guilds still have the option of either A) taking a chance at a suspension, or B) waiting until entrance is clear? I doubt this is the case, but my point is don't guild leaders still have a way to avoid suspension, while still getting mobs?

[mefdinkins]

Think of it as... there's a bunch of 'golden rules.' Don't train each other, don't interfere with the other guild. The rules change, sometimes a practice that is okay gets changed with an explicit rule or after a suspension which invoked a unique interpretation of the rule. The game is incredibly complex and parties min/max so sometimes absurd tactics become the regular practice. Microsecond advantages like Alt+Tabbing or WandCorpsePreTargeting become the norm and CSR re-actively make policy adjustments affecting players engaging in these behaviors.

Beyond that, you have to be relatively experienced to understand all the in game mechanics. Both Awakened and AM have practice servers where you can learn how to pull in TOV and test out aggro and other in game mechanics. Despite all this, a player peaking his head around a corner or /Q'ing in the wrong spot can kill a whole raid. People say it's the leaders but it's the level of competition and desire for self preservation that leads to the top raid entities for getting very close to the line and pushing each other towards or over the line at every opportunity. This isn't a game where you can watch an instant replay in slow motion and see exactly everything as it unfolded. Raiders record their pulls, people dissect what happened, question where mobs came from and where they were going - then often make split second decisions on whether a potential violation occurred and how to rectify that violation. This often happens when one guild is actively raiding and the other is actively Sherlock Holmes'ing the evidence to see if a potential violation occurred.

Just this past week I'm sure that Am/Aw engaged in 'negotiations' and discussions over the rules being followed on Lord Feshlak, Vulak, Lady M, and Yelinak. I'm sure there was a few other instances that led to the parties engaging each other saying, "wtf happened" or "are you really going to kill that?" or the famous "comcede" shouts. The stakes are generally pretty high in these scenarios but you do not want to risk being wrong or get taken advantage of.

Many of the rules have been changed/created in an arbitrary manner. I'm not bashing staff, I am an attorney and I believe a lot of rules and laws are arbitrary. The GMs have more important things to deal with and there's not a great working relationship between Aw/Am. The standards for what is right or wrong constantly change. Before, you could resolve an issue by conceding a mob - yet Aw was suspended in an unprecedented ruling for training CSG despite the fact that the mob they interfered with and trained were both conceded. Aftermath was suspended for not tracking CSG's mobs. Do you think AM would have sent one message with a spawn time if they had any inclination their behavior could be interpreted as violating server rules?

If you look at the nature of the in game mechanics and the level of competition. You would see that people with the purest intentions are still very at risk of violating the rules. Aw/Am are smart enough to realize it's better to raid for 30/40 days than kill a single Vulak.

So please recognize that the nature of EQ on P99, the level of competition, the mechanics of the game, the ever adjusting rule set, and the enforcers of the rules then tell me you can't comprehend how a guild could violate the rules unintentionally.

[loramin]

So please recognize that the nature of EQ on P99, the level of competition, the mechanics of the game, the ever adjusting rule set, and the enforcers of the rules then tell me you can't comprehend how a guild could violate the rules unintentionally.

Amen (to that and the rest of your post). I never meant to imply that the rules were 100% clear, that there was never ambiguity or unexpected GM interpretations, or any of that, but obviously all of that complexity is incredibly relevant.

And I do comprehend how a guild could violate the rules unintentionally. However, if a guild accidentally/unintentionally violates a rule, despite clearly having made attempts to follow all the rules, and that guild hasn't broken any other rules lately, I would be very surprised if they got suspended.

Heck, even with the A/A guilds I don't imagine Rogean and Sirken rubbing their hands like cartoon villains as they watch A/A raid, hoping to find some technicalicatiy to suspend them on. It seems far more likely that their suspensions aren't just the result of a single unintentional action, but rather that action coupled with the guild's larger history.

So again, it comes down to the actions of guild leaders. They can make their best efforts to avoid suspension, and very likely lose some competitions as a result, or they can compete to the bleeding edge and risk suspensions. They still have a choice, and adhering to the rules is still a viable option: you may lose some competitions, but you'll win a whole lot more when your rival is suspended and you aren't.

[mefdinkins]

Heck, even with the A/A guilds I don't imagine Rogean and Sirken rubbing their hands like cartoon villains as they watch A/A raid, hoping to find some technicalicatiy to suspend them on. It seems far more likely that their suspensions aren't just the result of a single unintentional action, but rather that action coupled with the guild's larger history.

So again, it comes down to the actions of guild leaders. They can make their best efforts to avoid suspension, and very likely lose some competitions as a result, or they can compete to the bleeding edge and risk suspensions. They still have a choice, and adhering to the rules is still a viable option: you may lose some competitions, but you'll win a whole lot more when your rival is suspended and you aren't.

Well, I for one have never been a leader or officer in a raiding guild. I will tell you that RNF spin, public opinion, half-truths, and propaganda are pretty common on P99. There's also a lack of transparency and your average player probably doesn't know about all the dealing and communication that goes on behind the scenes. I've seen a lot of players say, "this suspension really sends a message." I never really understand what that message is. Some people say the message is "TMO needs to be off the server" or "Awakened has to change it's leader" or "it's time for a rotation" or "AM+AW have to work out their own beefs instead of bothering the GMs." Whatever the message has been, it's clearly been missed by a large population of P99.

[loramin]

At this point only Kittens and Anonymous are in the zone and Anonymous tries to make a pull. The pull goes bad and trains the Kittens who have already conceded the mob but stuck around.

Now, being there is no other competition in the zone does Anonymous.

A. Concede Vindi and walk away, even though there is no more competition in the zone.
B. Pull Vindi again, because the guild Anonymous trained already conceded and are no longer competing.
C. Offer to group with Kittens and kill the mob.

Genuinely interested in what you realistically think would happen.

A, B, or C?

I still don't think those are the only options.

If there is literally no way to kill Vindi without significant risk of training Kittens AND the rules say that if you take that chance you risk a suspension, then A). Like I said, if that truly is the case Anon can choose not to risk suspension, wait until the Kittens group goes away, and kill Vindi then. If that happened there'd be a real risk Anon would lose enough people to where we couldn't do Vindi and might lose him ... but that's better than being suspended. If next week our roles are reversed and Kittens does pull through us, well hey they get suspended and on the third week there's no competition for Vindi.

But really I think the answer is to do B), but adhere to the rules and be respectful while doing it. That might mean fighting Vindi somewhere else, or asking the Kittens group to move just before the pull, or whatever. Again I haven't read every last sentence of the raid rules plus the 500-page compendium of rules interpretations and history, but even so I don't buy that Rogean and Sirken intended for an XP group to block a Vindi raid. If that's truly the way the rules are then I'd expect guilds to fuck with each other all over the place by setting up XP groups at inconvenient locations ;)

[skarlorn]

https://i.imgur.com/EtIXbCR.gif

[loramin]

I've seen a lot of players say, "this suspension really sends a message." I never really understand what that message is. Some people say the message is "TMO needs to be off the server" or "Awakened has to change it's leader" or "it's time for a rotation" or "AM+AW have to work out their own beefs instead of bothering the GMs." Whatever the message has been, it's clearly been missed by a large population of P99.

Heh, to me that's low hanging fruit: the message seems pretty clearly to be "play by the rules."

Also, I don't think it gets missed by everyone: 40 days off tends to make people pay attention to messages.

[Sonderbeast]

I'm reading what you're saying Loramin and I agree. It seems that there is either a lack of creativity or lack of willingness to adapt. You're right on /cheer

[mattydef]

Half of the raid bans are from stalling and breaking raid agreements, those are 100% avoidable, lol. Trains get a little trickier though because it's harder to tell whether it was an accident or not. The players are the ones that choose to pull tov mobs to the entrance though and by doing so take a risk of training people and eating bans. Unfortunately the people on this server are so pixel crazed that they constantly come up with the most effective way to get mobs as fast as possible in order to beat the competition. So instead of raiding tov the way it was supposed to be done, they use the train tactic, which makes killing mobs much faster and convenient but also much easier to break a rule. So yes, there are ways to easily avoid breaking rules, but it would require everyone to change how they've been doing these encounters.

[khanable]

https://i.imgur.com/EtIXbCR.gif

[Ravager]

At any rate, it's good to see the days of a 5 day bans between windows is gone.

[Zal22]

https://i.imgur.com/EtIXbCR.gif

Omg

[Moerne]

Heh, to me that's low hanging fruit: the message seems pretty clearly to be "play by the rules."



I've never raided with the A/A's, so I can't speak to what happens in NTOV, but I can tell you that even for the casual raiding guilds this can still be a problem, and you can't just simplify it down to "play by the rules". I'll give you an example of a situation we encountered when I was an officer in Paradox.

We were in Fear, contesting golem pops with another guild who will not be mentioned because the drama isn't needed. They made the FTE on the golem, but their puller got turned around, and pulled it into our camp thinking it was his. We were on the same wall, but not all that close to each other. Not even in los. Neither group had intentionally positioned themselves to be a problem for the other. The golem began rampaging through our ranks, and we killed it rather than let it wipe us.

This was a situation where mistakes were clearly made on both sides. But nothing was done intentionally, and there weren't a lot of options available. The puller's only option was Don't Make a Mistake - you've already agreed that's not exactly a viable option.

Our raid force's only option was Let The Mob Wipe Us. Well, in the heat of the moment that's just not something that's easy to do, especially when no one is sure of what's happening, where this mob came from, or why it's suddenly killing us.

So mistakes were made on both sides. Luckily, neither guild wanted a suspension over one golem, and we were able to work it out. But a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution, and it wouldn't have been because of bad leadership choices, or because people were trying to get away with breaking the rules.

[Man0warr]

Hard to play by the rules when the rules are arbitrary and nebulous, and the staff holds grudges.

[skarlorn]

it is no small feat of Cosmic Humor that A/A and AA are so similar in population

[beastmode83]

A 40 day for something that happened before our last 30 day... So frustrating.. I would put money that their is something already in the works to suspend us again no matter how much we just want to play by the "rules".

[loramin]

I've never raided with the A/A's, so I can't speak to what happens in NTOV, but I can tell you that even for the casual raiding guilds this can still be a problem, and you can't just simplify it down to "play by the rules". I'll give you an example of a situation we encountered when I was an officer in Paradox.

We were in Fear, contesting golem pops with another guild who will not be mentioned because the drama isn't needed. They made the FTE on the golem, but their puller got turned around, and pulled it into our camp thinking it was his. We were on the same wall, but not all that close to each other. Not even in los. Neither group had intentionally positioned themselves to be a problem for the other. The golem began rampaging through our ranks, and we killed it rather than let it wipe us.

This was a situation where mistakes were clearly made on both sides. But nothing was done intentionally, and there weren't a lot of options available. The puller's only option was Don't Make a Mistake - you've already agreed that's not exactly a viable option.

Our raid force's only option was Let The Mob Wipe Us. Well, in the heat of the moment that's just not something that's easy to do, especially when no one is sure of what's happening, where this mob came from, or why it's suddenly killing us.

So mistakes were made on both sides. Luckily, neither guild wanted a suspension over one golem, and we were able to work it out. But a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution, and it wouldn't have been because of bad leadership choices, or because people were trying to get away with breaking the rules.

So I 100% agree with the vast majority of your post. Accidents happen, people are human, and those accidents can wind up looking like possible malicious acts.

BUT, the staff aren't mindless robots, so I 100% disagree that:

a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution

If Paradox had no history of recent guild drama, and all they did was kill one mob that someone else pulled in to their camp, I would be shocked if the staff suspended the guild. Honestly I'd be surprised if the other guild got a suspension (again, assuming their whistle was otherwise clean).

Let's look at the actual rules:

Intentional training will be severely disciplined.
"Intentional"


7. You may not harass others.

Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. As harassment can take many forms, the P99CSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not a "reasonable person" would feel harassed and act accordingly.

8. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

- Deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other players cannot get past.

- Refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after having been instructed to do so by a P99CSR.

- Making excessive and inappropriate use of public channels of communications (/shout, /ooc, etc.).

- Intentionally causing excessive zone latency (creating excessive corpses, abusing spell effects, etc.).

- Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).


Again the word "intentional" is pretty paramount.

Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?
A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).

Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on.

Q4: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?
A: It is probably in your best interest to work raid disputes out among yourselves. The other option is the petition forum.

Q5: What about in cases where the mob dies before anyone is sure whom is at fault?
A: See Q4.
Note on Conceding / Forfeiting – You should concede a mob whenever your actions negatively impact another guild’s attempt at a mob, regardless of which zone the mob or the infraction take place in. Also, as far as what to concede / forfeit, if you still have a shot at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit that mob, if you do not still have a chance at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit the next two (it’s silly to try and concede a mob after you no longer have a real chance to kill that mob.


The only way the staff would ban either guild is for "raid disruption", but even then if you hadn't been able to settle things with the other guild you probably would have conceded the mob they trained on you right? Well there you go: by being a responsible guild you were at zero risk of suspension.

[loramin]

So yes, there are ways to easily avoid breaking rules, but it would require everyone to change how they've been doing these encounters.

And this is exactly why I think the staff has instituted the increasing-length suspension policy.

So many people on this thread seem to think the staff wants to give out suspensions, when the evidence is the exact opposite. Everything the staff has ever said on the topic has been that raid drama is one of their least favorite things to deal with. Rather than wanting to rules lawyer guilds into suspension, what the staff actually wants is for the players to play by the rules. It's that simple.

Unless the staff starts pulling back on enforcement (which I don't see happening), it really seems like guilds will have to change their tactics. Let's say Awakened doesn't change after this suspension: pretty soon they'll have a 2 month suspension next, and a 2.5 one after that. Somewhere along the way they're going to decide "hey, racing for this one mob this one specific way, even if it's the way both A/A guilds currently do it, isn't worth it, because being suspended for months at a time sucks." And other guilds will do the same.

[Psionide]

Velious sure did fix the raid scene here...

[Dithien]

If there isn't any more competition, the other guild won't have to change.

[darkleg]

Velious sure did fix the raid scene here...

bring on Luclin it is the cure

[aaezil]

The "oh we didnt mean it" defense is pretty flimsly when its your 50th or so time being suspended... Seriously.

[Holyhawk]

I've read this whole thread and nobody has yet explained why a healthy person would want to raid this shit.

[Sonderbeast]

If there isn't any more competition, the other guild won't have to change.

Every 6 months or so there will be a period between 1 week to a month where there will be competition, then someone is banned again. Smrt ppl realize that's not a gud. Smrt pepl shood chenge.

Then again if top end guilds started treating each other with respect, followed the rules, and maintained a healthy raid scene I might be inclined to join. Prolly best to just leave things as they are.

[Bones]

Velious sure did fix the raid scene here...

best post

[skarlorn]

I've read this whole thread and nobody has yet explained why a healthy person would want to raid this shit.

healthy people don't raid this shit

[Harbogast]

Biased decisions on how to enforce poorly conceived rules. I personally am a fan of the rule where you have to concede if someone trains your tracker. Feel free to forum ban me since I'm not allowed to play on your server anyway.

[Pezy]

47* day raid ban

[Dithien]

Somebody power trippin'...

[Supaskillz]

I've read this whole thread and nobody has yet explained why a healthy person would want to raid this shit.

It cannot be any less healthy than reading this shit

[Skew]

There are no 47 Days With Jesus memes :(

[beargryllz]

Except for the Aw 30 day where they conceded it and still got petitioned by dumdums.

See this is the part I don't get. That particular day there were like 5 or 6 guilds trying to do ToV. 1 mob is about to go down and AW trains the raid.

That's cool, they'll just concede. But it's kinda not cool. It's kinda bullshit because it was only by extreme fortune that the trained raid could recover and get another shot at it

Otherwise, why wouldn't I just make a fresh guild with 3 members in it to train ToV entrance and be like "lol concede" and watch my friends kill the dragon after the wipe is done?

[Maner]

A 40 day for something that happened before our last 30 day... So frustrating.. I would put money that their is something already in the works to suspend us again no matter how much we just want to play by the "rules".

You must be new here. You know how charges work when you're arrested? When you are sentenced for multiple crimes you don't just spend time in jail for the biggest offense, everything is added together. You're bitching about the staff when in reality you should be bitching about your leadership whose choices put you in this situation.

[beastmode83]

You must be new here. You know how charges work when you're arrested? When you are sentenced for multiple crimes you don't just spend time in jail for the biggest offense, everything is added together. You're bitching about the staff when in reality you should be bitching about your leadership whose choices put you in this situation.

So glad I dont live in this forum you are correct. Forum ban would probably be worse for some of you. I still have a right to give a /sigh though right?

[Bones]

I can understand if you guys were salty because it actually cost you the mob but it didn't. You ended up getting it. I'm not saying it's a rule that you can only petition if you lost the mob or anything, it's just a weird thing to get bent out of shape about. Given that it should have been very obvious that Awakened didn't do it on purpose because there was nothing to gain from it and it actually hurt them since they had to concede Fesh too. This might seem crazy but 99% of the trains you see from A/A are just people messing up by accident. We suck sometimes.


exactly

[Llodd]

Oh all you a/a ppl proclaiming shady shit doesn't happen and it's all unintentional is hilarious.

And then calling out casuals for being clueless about the raid scene. . Priceless =P

[xzhaa]

Oh all you a/a ppl proclaiming shady shit doesn't happen and it's all unintentional is hilarious.

And then calling out casuals for being clueless about the raid scene. . Priceless =P

clearly you are of those clueless people

[Llodd]

Yup nothing shady ever happens or ever has. Keep believing!

[Maner]

Yup nothing shady ever happens or ever has. Keep believing!

No one in this thread has ever made this claim though... keep spinning

[matticas]

You can (very easily) convince me that I'm not an experienced raider, but you can't convince me that the rules here are so complex, so convoluted, and so hard-to-understand that it is impossible for a guild to compete for top content without breaking those rules.

You seem thoughtful and reasonable, otherwise I wouldn't even bother...but these two things you mentioned go hand in hand: 1) you don't have end game raid experience, and 2) experience is essential for you to have an informed opinion on the subject matter at hand

Arm chair opinions are easy. Lvl a puller, get cothed up, compete, contest, manage aggro, peel adds, and everything else, then let's discuss experiences rather than guesses and opinions



“a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion.” —Hardwick

[matticas]

I've never raided with the A/A's, so I can't speak to what happens in NTOV, but I can tell you that even for the casual raiding guilds this can still be a problem, and you can't just simplify it down to "play by the rules". I'll give you an example of a situation we encountered when I was an officer in Paradox.

We were in Fear, contesting golem pops with another guild who will not be mentioned because the drama isn't needed. They made the FTE on the golem, but their puller got turned around, and pulled it into our camp thinking it was his. We were on the same wall, but not all that close to each other. Not even in los. Neither group had intentionally positioned themselves to be a problem for the other. The golem began rampaging through our ranks, and we killed it rather than let it wipe us.

This was a situation where mistakes were clearly made on both sides. But nothing was done intentionally, and there weren't a lot of options available. The puller's only option was Don't Make a Mistake - you've already agreed that's not exactly a viable option.

Our raid force's only option was Let The Mob Wipe Us. Well, in the heat of the moment that's just not something that's easy to do, especially when no one is sure of what's happening, where this mob came from, or why it's suddenly killing us.

So mistakes were made on both sides. Luckily, neither guild wanted a suspension over one golem, and we were able to work it out. But a suspension is what would likely have happened had it gone to GM resolution, and it wouldn't have been because of bad leadership choices, or because people were trying to get away with breaking the rules.

This, and imagine that happening often, pretty much always unintentionally. I know it's more fun to believe most of A/A are evil, but this has been my experience after nearly a year with AM. The chaos makes it fun, the chaos can also make it just plain awful. It all depends on how we respond and whether we make things right.

[shuklak]

The problem with going with the "accident" story is that it's far too past its prime. Anyone playing eq today has already been a part of groups and guilds where they or their group intentionally griefed someone and then laughed while proclaiming it was an accident. Its as classic as snakes kicking.

[HalflingWarrior]

Oh all you a/a ppl proclaiming shady shit doesn't happen and it's all unintentional is hilarious.

And then calling out casuals for being clueless about the raid scene. . Priceless =P

Prove it, pal!

[loramin]

You seem thoughtful and reasonable, otherwise I wouldn't even bother...but these two things you mentioned go hand in hand: 1) you don't have end game raid experience, and 2) experience is essential for you to have an informed opinion on the subject matter at hand

Arm chair opinions are easy. Lvl a puller, get cothed up, compete, contest, manage aggro, peel adds, and everything else, then let's discuss experiences rather than guesses and opinions



“a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion.” —Hardwick

I really like engaging with thoughtful and reasonable people like yourself too, so please try to take anything "harsh" in the rest of this post as hyperbolic rhetoric, and not me trying to be rude to you. But ... this has been going on as long as I've been here (4+ years), since back when TMO did it: "anyone who isn't in TMO doesn't understand raiding, so they don't get to have an opinion."

Well I'm sorry, but the idea that no one except the top raiders can possibly have a reasonable opinion is bullshit. And you know what else is bullshit? The idea that the staff is out to get the guilds. They've said it many times: they do not want to discipline anyone, and they did not create this project to become babysitters!

What they do want is for people to actually follow the rules while of course still playing and raiding (even top-end content). And that's why I don't even need to know a single thing about the raid scene: all I need to know is that the staff are people who have devoted insane amounts of their own time to let thousands of us have fun in their world, and those kind of people don't create impossible to follow rules just to fuck with the guilds.

This thread has been going on for 15 pages, and the absolute best reason anyone has given for why they have to train other guilds from time to time is because they have to pull a mob a certain way to a certain place. Why do the have to do that? Because it's the fastest way, and top-end raiding is a race.

Well, newsflash: Awakened is losing that race for 40(47) days. If they keep breaking the rules they'll lose it for even longer, and if other guilds break the rules they'll start getting suspensions too.

The raid scene 100% is a race, but if the staff keeps handing out escalating suspensions pretty soon people will learn that the "fastest" way isn't really the fastest, and start changing how they pull. Hell, they might even doing it in a :eek: classic way for a change.

[kotton05]

We needed this in kunark...

Better late than never but never late is better!

[TimTheToolmanTaylor]

ITT guy who's never raided tells people who raid for a living they are wrong. lewl. next you know he's going to go tell a doctor how to perform surgery.

[Ravager]

ITT guy who's never raided tells people who raid for a living they are wrong. lewl. next you know he's going to go tell a doctor how to perform surgery.
I just bolded the real problem.