Ben Stein vs. Everquest

[CHusk2]

Hey everybody,

Roughly three hours ago I had the immense privilege of attending a lecture in the traditional Presidential series that takes place at my university. This year the key note speaker was none other than Ben Stein. His speech was amazing and profound to say the least. He covered a lot of ground regarding America's current and past economic status(s) and incorporated some great jokes into the whole thing.

When the lecture was finished he took questions from some of the students, and one of his answers immediately got my attention. He was asked how he felt about the amount of time developing young adults and children spend with media such as t.v. and video games.

Now here's where it all ties in. He responded by (essentially) such media had a "fantastically negative" effect on our culture and specifically cited Everquest, calling it Evercrack. His point was that these things are often taken out of moderation and waste valuable time that people could spend doing other productive things. This tied into some points he had made earlier about America lagging behind in science, math, and history. Mr. Stein made the point that it is very easy for games like Everquest to become addictive and take up exorbitant amounts of time, which is a massive waste of potential in many cases.

The reason I'm posting this is not to knock Everquest or Project 1999. I love everything about Project 1999 and I appreciate all the hard work that it's taken to get it to where it is today. It's unlike any other experience, and the people involved with it are truly unique and amazing.

I just wanted to share that story and propose that we all take a little while to really think about the amount of time we spend Questing and xping vs. the amount of time we spend working, studying, improving our minds, exercising, and experiencing new things.

Thank you Norrath, and may all of your quests yield plentiful experience both in-game and out.

Alkaiser Baneofmistmoore (30 Cleric of Prexus)

[President]

Ben Stein is pro-life, believes in intelligent design, and likened Obama's rally's during the 2008 presidential race to Hitlers rallies.

Among many other things. That guy can get fucked in the ass by a gorilla, water buffalo, and Uthgaard's banhammer all at the same time.

[Tippett]

I enjoy alot of Stein's commentaries, but I believe his (alleged) opinions on videogaming is more of the same old generalizations then a real intelligent analysis. A little disappointing.

[Uthgaard]

Ben Stein's hate for Everquest is due to his son's addiction to it.

[Ihealyou]

How is doing something you enjoy not productive? I'd say that my happiness is more important than working, studying, or improving my mind. I could have a successful career, be in peak physical condition, and do all the other "productive" stuff he talks about, but at the end of the day, if I'm not happy it doesn't matter. I'd rather enjoy life than do what I'm supposed to do because it looks good.

[Hobby]

I personally have wasted more time guiding and taking care of these players than i should...just thankful for the large amount of wonderful people I've had the chance to meet that, otherwise, i would never of known.

As much as a waste of time it is, I still feel like I am doing something good.

[muddy27]

Anything can be considered a waste of time it just depends on who you ask about the certain subject and how they feel. Life is time we have to find ways to enjoy it and to pass the time, untill our time comes. What someone chooses to do with there free time is there own business. An also anything can become an addiction drinking, gaming, what ever. I think as long as people feel they are successful and are happy with whatever they are doing in life is cool. Life isnt a box of roses alot of time, games help people to escape the confinds of a sometime mundane life and to also meet new people and share experiences.

[Lazortag]

Stein's position is interesting because if he were just talking about regular video games, it would be extremely apparent that he was full of shit. The cognitive stimulation that someone gets from playing the average video game isn't really any worse than that which you'd be getting from the average book. This isn't to say that people shouldn't read, or that playing video games is an adequate substitution for reading, but rather that both have their benefits.

The truth is that most of our current media is actually way more complex than it was 40 years ago. Even god awful TV shows like Heroes have a bazillion more plotlines going on at once than the average show from back in the day. Again, this isn't to say that shows have gotten *better*, but that they've gotten more complex and stimulating, and that the conventional wisdom that they "rot our brains" is unsupported nonsense.

Video games can be very complex and challenging too. Even some older and simpler games like Smash TV or Contra 3 could be hard as hell and required people to think quickly so that they could avoid getting killed. And yeah, sometimes that meant that players just memorized everything they had to do to win, but that's good in its own way. There have been at least a few studies that I know of linking video games to improved memory, and it's not like that's surprising - people like to win at games, and lots of games reward people with good memories. Replace "people with good memories" with "people who are good at math", "people who think quickly", "people who can spell", "people who can read", etc. and that describes a lot of the people who benefit from games.

Even games that aren't that difficult can stimulate the mind. Lots of early SNES RPG's were really easy, but they were essentially no different from any other story-telling medium. If I were to write down the story to a final fantasy game and make a book or a play out of it, would that make it better somehow? Is there some reason why telling a story by using a video game makes it unstimulating, or are all stories in video games just bad?

Stein's argument is based on two things: the fact that games can be time-consuming, and the idea that the time spent playing games is "wasted potential". That's true insofar as the time spent reading the books in the harry potter series is wasted potential. People spend literally days reading all of those books, so like, shouldn't they be out working minimum wage jobs and stuff? Wouldn't that be more productive?

When people are playing everquest, maybe it's not that clear what cognitive stimulation they're getting out of it. But I'm sure you can't just reduce everquest to mindless grinding, at least not classic everquest, which we all know can be very challenging. The game actually does make people think, balance priorities, add, subtract, read, use basic math, etc. It also does kind of have a story - as I said, the whole experience isn't just limited to mindless leveling. Not to mention, it lets you meet some interesting (to say the least) people, and that's usually a plus.

Also, even though it's not terribly relevant, Ben Stein generally says very stupid things. I think he was the one who tried to argue that muslims were going to take over Europe in 20 years or something? Also if he believes in intelligent design like President says, then that's just unforgivable.

edit: TLDR: stein's dumb.

[uohaloran]

All things should be taken in moderation. I use that as a general rule.

I figure over 6 years without Everquest was plenty of a rest.

[Tippett]

Even games that aren't that difficult can stimulate the mind. Lots of early SNES RPG's were really easy, but they were essentially no different from any other story-telling medium. If I were to write down the story to a final fantasy game and make a book or a play out of it, would that make it better somehow? Is there some reason why telling a story by using a video game makes it unstimulating, or are all stories in video games just bad?

I could read by Kindergarten thanks to videogames. (Take that Steiny!) :D

[Shocore]

I sat through Battlefield Earth, The Postman, Troll 2, and The Room in one sitting each, but I had to space Expelled over the space of a few days because I began to feel nauseous after about 20 minutes of Stein's monotonous ignorance and ignorant monotony.

Forgive an obvious ad hominem, but Ben Stein is stupid and everything he says is stupid.

[fischsemmel]

Stein's position is interesting because if he were just talking about regular video games, it would be extremely apparent that he was full of shit. The cognitive stimulation that someone gets from playing the average video game isn't really any worse than that which you'd be getting from the average book. This isn't to say that people shouldn't read, or that playing video games is an adequate substitution for reading, but rather that both have their benefits.

The truth is that most of our current media is actually way more complex than it was 40 years ago. Even god awful TV shows like Heroes have a bazillion more plotlines going on at once than the average show from back in the day. Again, this isn't to say that shows have gotten *better*, but that they've gotten more complex and stimulating, and that the conventional wisdom that they "rot our brains" is unsupported nonsense.

Video games can be very complex and challenging too. Even some older and simpler games like Smash TV or Contra 3 could be hard as hell and required people to think quickly so that they could avoid getting killed. And yeah, sometimes that meant that players just memorized everything they had to do to win, but that's good in its own way. There have been at least a few studies that I know of linking video games to improved memory, and it's not like that's surprising - people like to win at games, and lots of games reward people with good memories. Replace "people with good memories" with "people who are good at math", "people who think quickly", "people who can spell", "people who can read", etc. and that describes a lot of the people who benefit from games.

Even games that aren't that difficult can stimulate the mind. Lots of early SNES RPG's were really easy, but they were essentially no different from any other story-telling medium. If I were to write down the story to a final fantasy game and make a book or a play out of it, would that make it better somehow? Is there some reason why telling a story by using a video game makes it unstimulating, or are all stories in video games just bad?

Stein's argument is based on two things: the fact that games can be time-consuming, and the idea that the time spent playing games is "wasted potential". That's true insofar as the time spent reading the books in the harry potter series is wasted potential. People spend literally days reading all of those books, so like, shouldn't they be out working minimum wage jobs and stuff? Wouldn't that be more productive?

When people are playing everquest, maybe it's not that clear what cognitive stimulation they're getting out of it. But I'm sure you can't just reduce everquest to mindless grinding, at least not classic everquest, which we all know can be very challenging. The game actually does make people think, balance priorities, add, subtract, read, use basic math, etc. It also does kind of have a story - as I said, the whole experience isn't just limited to mindless leveling. Not to mention, it lets you meet some interesting (to say the least) people, and that's usually a plus.

Also, even though it's not terribly relevant, Ben Stein generally says very stupid things. I think he was the one who tried to argue that muslims were going to take over Europe in 20 years or something? Also if he believes in intelligent design like President says, then that's just unforgivable.

edit: TLDR: stein's dumb.

Let's not forget the social aspect that many of us are involved in while playing EQ.

[Slathar]

Ben Stein's hate for Everquest is due to his son's addiction to it.

this. his son was massively addicted to it around Luclin i believe. duno about anymore.

[Ongbak]

Too much of anythings can lead to bad things. To me, everything in life should be moderation.

[nalkin]

EQ taught me how to type on a keyboard like a pro. So while everyone in middle school was learning 'asdf jkl;', I was like 'lol u guys suck, Hail, an orc centurion'.

[VictoryARC]

Frye....

[President]

EQ taught me how to type on a keyboard like a pro. So while everyone in middle school was learning 'asdf jkl;', I was like 'lol u guys suck, Hail, an orc centurion'.

This... I blew kids out of the water after a few months of EQ and now type absurdly fast. I definitely feel like competitive counterstrike upped my reaction time too.

[uohaloran]

This... I blew kids out of the water after a few months of EQ and now type absurdly fast. I definitely feel like competitive counterstrike upped my reaction time too.

Nonsense. Video games make you a murderer.

[Tumdumm]

EQ taught me how to type on a keyboard like a pro. So while everyone in middle school was learning 'asdf jkl;', I was like 'lol u guys suck, Hail, an orc centurion'.

i hear ya, though for mr before eq i couldn't type at all, it got me killed plenty of times too. eq makes you learn the hard way to watch the screen not your fingers.

[fischsemmel]

To me, everything in life should be moderation.

Impossible! Trying to do so just means you always live by this maxim, which in and of itself means you fail to live by this maxim ;)

[fischsemmel]

EQ taught me how to type on a keyboard like a pro. So while everyone in middle school was learning 'asdf jkl;', I was like 'lol u guys suck, Hail, an orc centurion'.

Hah. Laughed out loud pretty good at this. I'm not sure why, but I find the 'lol u guys suck, Hail, an orc centurion' to be hilarious.

[fugazi]

Fuck the Protestant ethic that we live to work. I live to live, working is something that has to be done at times to support my lifestyle.

[Tippett]

Fuck the Protestant ethic that we live to work. I live to live, working is something that has to be done at times to support my lifestyle.

This :D

[Toehammer]

I have mixed feelings about the idea that addictive video games waste time or not. I think one is in denial if they say they are not a waste of time. However lots of things are a waste of time.

Stein's opinion was just the same as my Dad's back in 1999. He would see me and my friend playing this game so much and want to rip the computer out of the wall. It was just because he didn't relate to it. When my brother and I were young we would sneak downstairs to play video games when we weren't supposed to at like 5am. He would catch us and say, "no tv/video games for a year" then two days later he would say, "hey do you wanna play me in tetris/duck hunt?" or "hey check out this cool show on the discovery channel". I feel the same way about facebook that my Dad felt about EQ. I see my sister-in-law on facebook 24/7, sending people cuddly bears, animals on a farm... I have no friggin idea... just really dumb and, IN MY OPINION (that is key), wasting her time. Then I make fun of her and she is like, "well at least it is not stupid video games." I have no grounds to defend myself.

But the thing is you waste time when you are young, and you learn what dumb shit not to do. In high school I was intense with sports, school was easy, and I had nothing else to do. I could have read more, sure, I wish I did that. I could have chased girls, but I knew that was retarded in high school. What are you gonna do, continue to date them through college, haha noobs? I could have smoked weed with some of my toolbag friends, but let's be honest, losers smoke weed, real men do coke (I kid)! Or I could have gotten a shit job, bought a shit car, and bought shitty CDs or other dumb high school crap. Although I loved high school (read: sports and the sciences) I didn't see eye to eye with many.

EQ for sure is a waste of time, but it is fun. I still always rank sports/outdoor stuff > books > video games. When in school though, I did enough of the first two, and needed time to decompress while slaying some mobs.

[mitic]

so if i meet a woman, marry her, start a family and divorce some years later with debts and child support... would that have been more productive than playing eq ?

[Hasbinbad]

I think it's funny when people (not Mr. Stein, but in general) cite that the US falls behind China in education while simultaneously saying that video games are the reason.

[maegi]

everything is a waste of time depending on who you ask. Example, some people collect stamps. To me that is a complete waste of fucking time and boring as all get out. However, that said, if you want to do that in your free time, more power to you. Playing EQ or xbox or any other game is the same thing depending on whose opinion you seek. I do feel that kids should be limited to how much they can play anything, whether thats outside playing sports, video games, watching tv , whatever. Parents need to be parents and stop blaming their children's shortfalls on the music they listen to, the games they play or the television they are watching. Who is the adult and who is the child?? Act like it and stop being a fucking victim.

Now, with all that said, how an adult chooses to spend their time is up to said adult. If it's playing EQ, being a redneck nascar fan who rabidly follows Jeff Gordon or (insert driver name here) or racing miniature cars, doesn't really matter. the point is they are fun to that person or they wouldn't spend the time and effort and money to do it. So who is Ben Stein, or anyone else for that matter to judge what the fuck you or I or anyone else does to enjoy their lives a little more? Fuck Ben Stein, fuck the moral majority. Down with oppression!

[fastboy21]

How is doing something you enjoy not productive? I'd say that my happiness is more important than working, studying, or improving my mind. I could have a successful career, be in peak physical condition, and do all the other "productive" stuff he talks about, but at the end of the day, if I'm not happy it doesn't matter. I'd rather enjoy life than do what I'm supposed to do because it looks good.

and this is the EXACT issue with an entire generation plus of americans (and arguably some other Western European countries) right now.

How is doing something you enjoy not productive? The answer to this should be obvious. That it requires any explanation at all to some gives an idea about how culturally deep the notion is.

Your happiness is more important than working, studying, improving your mind, having a successful career, being in good physical condition? Again, a good synopsis of a very dangerous cultural norm in our society.

You'd rather enjoy life than do what you're supposed to do? Again, a dangerous cultural attitude that leads to mediocrity and ironically (in the end) unhappiness.

There are a generation of young american adults already entering the work place that were raised in this culture. There is a couple generations of children behind them that are being raised with the same mentality.

I'm very hesitant to get on the "young people today have no sense of responsibility" band wagon as I think most generations have looked back in disgust at the young generations in their society, and everything has turned out fine.

I'm reminded of a quote on young people in society:

"The children today now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Socrates said this around 400BC...so there seems to maybe be a prevailing habit of the older generation to criticize the younger...

To some degree, I still have faith in our children to be of the same exact fiber of our older generations who fought in WWII and sacrificed everything for their sense of responsibility to family and nation.

On the other hand, I do think there is a real cultural shift that has gone on...and that it is a cultural shift that if left unchecked would ultimately represent a threat to our society.

[Pycoba_rng]

and this is the EXACT issue with an entire generation plus of americans (and arguably some other Western European countries) right now.

How is doing something you enjoy not productive? The answer to this should be obvious. That it requires any explanation at all to some gives an idea about how culturally deep the notion is.

Your happiness is more important than working, studying, improving your mind, having a successful career, being in good physical condition? Again, a good synopsis of a very dangerous cultural norm in our society.

You'd rather enjoy life than do what you're supposed to do? Again, a dangerous cultural attitude that leads to mediocrity and ironically (in the end) unhappiness.

There are a generation of young american adults already entering the work place that were raised in this culture. There is a couple generations of children behind them that are being raised with the same mentality.

I'm very hesitant to get on the "young people today have no sense of responsibility" band wagon as I think most generations have looked back in disgust at the young generations in their society, and everything has turned out fine.

I'm reminded of a quote on young people in society:

"The children today now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Socrates said this around 400BC...so there seems to maybe be a prevailing habit of the older generation to criticize the younger...

To some degree, I still have faith in our children to be of the same exact fiber of our older generations who fought in WWII and sacrificed everything for their sense of responsibility to family and nation.

On the other hand, I do think there is a real cultural shift that has gone on...and that it is a cultural shift that if left unchecked would ultimately represent a threat to our society.

Though its very late and im intoxicated right now. I personally agree with a lot of the statements you have made. If we all just did what made us happy in the end. The world would be one chaotic place.
Just imagine how many more obese people would be in america? I have so many responsibilities that don't make me happy. In the end though I am much more happier with a sense of accomplishment having done them. Evolution is apparent. If you disagree with the fact that the younger generation is being brought up tremedously differntly you are a fool. It guys like Ben Stein we need. I'm no fan of Ben Stein , but comments like his have more of a positive effect then a neg one. We need people to push us into responsibilty aka productive things. We need people to encourage us and to point out time wasted. Back in the day when the diagnosis of ADD wasn't around. Parents would just discipline you harder. Instead we medicate society often way to much. As far as our education system being so low. You can thank the public school system/ polotics for this notion. Maybe if we got rid of the illegals attending these schools with no profound way on learning english maybe then we could concentrate on studies that matter for the children that are hear legally. Or maybe if parents just took the time and payed proper attention to their kids there may be more hope. Back in the day it was normal for the wife to stay home with the child. Now in days its demonized into a cultural norm that the wife has to work. The economy has now responded... double income parents.... It was much more plausible for one parent to work back then. Now its a lot harder. You can thank womans right groups, and the socialistic terror it has brought onto this nation. The day woman aren't demonized for staying home with the children, and the day the average male can support his family on his own. Is the day we might be able to focus on our kids/schools more. I hope more people like Ben Stein come out of this generation of kids. Its people with a driving force that gets things done in this world. Not people doing theings for their own happiness. But for the greater good of others and their hapiness. Think jesus perhaps?

[muddy27]

EQ taught me how to type on a keyboard like a pro. So while everyone in middle school was learning 'asdf jkl;', I was like 'lol u guys suck, Hail, an orc centurion'.

lol

[karsten]

list of things I didn't read:

1.
Though its very late and im intoxicated right now. I personally agree with a lot of the statements you have made. If we all just did what made us happy in the end. The world would be one chaotic place.
Just imagine how many more obese people would be in america? I have so many responsibilities that don't make me happy. In the end though I am much more happier with a sense of accomplishment having done them. Evolution is apparent. If you disagree with the fact that the younger generation is being brought up tremedously differntly you are a fool. It guys like Ben Stein we need. I'm no fan of Ben Stein , but comments like his have more of a positive effect then a neg one. We need people to push us into responsibilty aka productive things. We need people to encourage us and to point out time wasted. Back in the day when the diagnosis of ADD wasn't around. Parents would just discipline you harder. Instead we medicate society often way to much. As far as our education system being so low. You can thank the public school system/ polotics for this notion. Maybe if we got rid of the illegals attending these schools with no profound way on learning english maybe then we could concentrate on studies that matter for the children that are hear legally. Or maybe if parents just took the time and payed proper attention to their kids there may be more hope. Back in the day it was normal for the wife to stay home with the child. Now in days its demonized into a cultural norm that the wife has to work. The economy has now responded... double income parents.... It was much more plausible for one parent to work back then. Now its a lot harder. You can thank womans right groups, and the socialistic terror it has brought onto this nation. The day woman aren't demonized for staying home with the children, and the day the average male can support his family on his own. Is the day we might be able to focus on our kids/schools more. I hope more people like Ben Stein come out of this generation of kids. Its people with a driving force that gets things done in this world. Not people doing theings for their own happiness. But for the greater good of others and their hapiness. Think jesus perhaps?

[Japan]

stein is a creationist retard, and I didn't read the rest of the thread because I don't give a fuck what he has to say about anything

[guineapig]

Some would argue that listening to celebrities is a waste of time.

I think Mr. Stein himself said that during the last election. :D

[Ihealyou]

You'd rather enjoy life than do what you're supposed to do? Again, a dangerous cultural attitude that leads to mediocrity and ironically (in the end) unhappiness.


Hi Grandpa!

Success does bring happiness, which is why most people don't sit around all day watching TV and playing EQ. My point was that if you chase success at the expense of all else, you'll end up rich and skinny and everything else you're supposed to be, but unhappy. I was just trying to say that its ok to take some time to enjoy yourself without feeling guilty about it. Thanks for calling me lazy though! I better go take my Adderall because my parents didn't raise me right...

[Odeseus]

I dunno. I can see one side of the argument:

Playing video games is akin to wasting your time doing anything else. Obsessing over reality TV, facebook, whatever. There are better things to do with your free time.

On the flip side:

It is your free time. For me, during my free time I want to do as little as possible because the rest of my life is busy as hell. I rarely have more than a pair of hours at the end of the day in which I can just chill, and my chosen method of chilling is playing EQ and killing pixels. No different than anything else.

[Gandite]

Keep in mind that in everquest's heyday they had 450k subscriptions. That's 450,000 monthly payments of $15. All that money employs a lot of people so while people playing EQ are not producing, they are consuming. Consuming is a normal part of an economy.

Ben Stein claims to be an economist but he certainly doesn't know much about economics or finance. I'm an econ/finance major and while I do not proclaim to be brilliant in either field I honestly feel like Ben Stein knows absolutely nothing about either. If you'd like proof go look up what the mongoloid said about the global financial crisis. He's a loud-mouth moron which is why his only outlet to get people to listen to him is Fox News.

[dallammarr]

http://www.nyjtimes.com/Entertainment/Games/2003/Evercracked.htm

Good article to read about this topic. But yes I believe in moderation. I had a bit of an addiction to EQ back in 1999 when I first played it, but eventually it wore off. I agree, I go to work to support my family and lifestyle, if I didn't have to work I wouldn't.

[Tiggles]

Ben Stein is pro-life, believes in intelligent design, and likened Obama's rally's during the 2008 presidential race to Hitlers rallies.

Among many other things. That guy can get fucked in the ass by a gorilla, water buffalo, and Uthgaard's banhammer all at the same time.

This
Also,
http://everqueststein.ytmnd.com/

[fastboy21]

Hi Grandpa!

Success does bring happiness, which is why most people don't sit around all day watching TV and playing EQ. My point was that if you chase success at the expense of all else, you'll end up rich and skinny and everything else you're supposed to be, but unhappy. I was just trying to say that its ok to take some time to enjoy yourself without feeling guilty about it. Thanks for calling me lazy though! I better go take my Adderall because my parents didn't raise me right...

i never called you lazy. i never said your parents didn't raise you right. i don't blame you, your parents, my parents, or anyone for the reality of our culture.

all i am pointing out is that our society is in a dangerous place because ALL of us (myself included) are living in a culture that tells us "do what makes you happy."

if you get defensive because you see yourself in the culture i'm describing it shouldn't bother you, unless you know you ought to be living your life differently. in either case, it makes no difference to me. enjoy your life playing EQ 24/7 or do something else...its your life, not mine. it isn't my place to say what is "best" for you in particular.

[Extunarian]

I sat through Battlefield Earth, The Postman, Troll 2, and The Room in one sitting each, but I had to space Expelled over the space of a few days because I began to feel nauseous after about 20 minutes of Stein's monotonous ignorance and ignorant monotony.

Forgive an obvious ad hominem, but Ben Stein is stupid and everything he says is stupid.

This is a great first post.

[Ihealyou]

i never called you lazy. i never said your parents didn't raise you right. i don't blame you, your parents, my parents, or anyone for the reality of our culture.

all i am pointing out is that our society is in a dangerous place because ALL of us (myself included) are living in a culture that tells us "do what makes you happy."

if you get defensive because you see yourself in the culture i'm describing it shouldn't bother you, unless you know you ought to be living your life differently. in either case, it makes no difference to me. enjoy your life playing EQ 24/7 or do something else...its your life, not mine. it isn't my place to say what is "best" for you in particular.

Sorry if I got defensive when you quoted my post as an example of what's wrong with society...

I wouldn't be happy playing EQ all day. I like to learn. I like to be successful. Most people do. I'm not trying to say that you should sit on your ass all day playing video games. But who's to say that learning and working are a better use of time than pursuing happiness? When you're lying on your deathbed, you're not going to care about how much money you have, or how smart you are. You're going to be thinking about how happy you were. Money or intelligence can bring this happiness to some people, for others it doesn't. I don't see the existence of this latter group as a societal ill. Its a reality, and there's nothing wrong with accepting it.

[Knuckle]

Ben Stein is pro-life, believes in intelligent design, and likened Obama's rally's during the 2008 presidential race to Hitlers rallies.

Among many other things. That guy can get fucked in the ass by a gorilla, water buffalo, and Uthgaard's banhammer all at the same time.

lot of rage from a nerd eating cheetos

[Knuckle]

I enjoy alot of Stein's commentaries, but I believe his (alleged) opinions on videogaming is more of the same old generalizations then a real intelligent analysis. A little disappointing.

yeah because /pizza isn't indicative of a antisocial fat nerd who won't even muster the effort to lift his fat sausage fingers off the keyboard.

[Slathar]

yeah because /pizza isn't indicative of a antisocial fat nerd who won't even muster the effort to lift his fat sausage fingers off the keyboard.

arent you the same antisocial fat nerd who made a book long post about a name in a fantasy based role playing game?

get back in your basement

[Henini]

loll @ Ben Stein

[dredge]

of course EQ is a giant waste of time, how can anyone argue that it isn't.

But I enjoy it and rather play EQ than watch TV.
But yeah, it's not productive, socially or any other way.

[jetviper21]

I just looked at my git repositories and total since i started playing here i have written almost 28,432 lines of code... poop-socking raid bosses may not seem productive but i seem to get a lot done =D

[soup]

and this is the EXACT issue with an entire generation plus of americans (and arguably some other Western European countries) right now.

How is doing something you enjoy not productive? The answer to this should be obvious. That it requires any explanation at all to some gives an idea about how culturally deep the notion is.

Your happiness is more important than working, studying, improving your mind, having a successful career, being in good physical condition? Again, a good synopsis of a very dangerous cultural norm in our society.

You'd rather enjoy life than do what you're supposed to do? Again, a dangerous cultural attitude that leads to mediocrity and ironically (in the end) unhappiness.

There are a generation of young american adults already entering the work place that were raised in this culture. There is a couple generations of children behind them that are being raised with the same mentality.

I'm very hesitant to get on the "young people today have no sense of responsibility" band wagon as I think most generations have looked back in disgust at the young generations in their society, and everything has turned out fine.

I'm reminded of a quote on young people in society:

"The children today now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Socrates said this around 400BC...so there seems to maybe be a prevailing habit of the older generation to criticize the younger...

To some degree, I still have faith in our children to be of the same exact fiber of our older generations who fought in WWII and sacrificed everything for their sense of responsibility to family and nation.

On the other hand, I do think there is a real cultural shift that has gone on...and that it is a cultural shift that if left unchecked would ultimately represent a threat to our society.

It sounds like you confuse the idea of doing what make you happy with the idea of mindless rampant gluttony. Most people don't interpret "Do what you love to do" as "Play EQ all day, shovel cheese burgers down your throat incessantly, and do lines of cocaine every 15 minutes."

I also find irony in mentioning WW2. While I have no problem calling that generation by it's common name of "The greatest generation", the irony comes from the fact that the war was basically started by people more concerned with collective productivity than individual happiness (and I'm not referring to the Allies here, if that isn't clear), which seems to be what you are advocating, the need to sacrifice personal happiness for collective productivity.

[maegi]

Heil Hitler! sounds like something he'd say, referring to that sacrificing happiness for productivity....total bullshit.

[gprater]

was his son's name Moggok?

[Akame]

/palmface

This whole thread needs to move to rants and flames, though to the original poster, good post! Sorry you got derailed.

[Knuckle]

arent you the same antisocial fat nerd who made a book long post about a name in a fantasy based role playing game?

get back in your basement

copy/paste much? obv. answer is no. big knuckle is a internet legend ur such a cheeto eating sausage finger.

[hedbonker]

all i am pointing out is that our society is in a dangerous place because ALL of us (myself included) are living in a culture that tells us "do what makes you happy."

Yeah that whole "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" bullshit has been fucking this country over for over 240 years.

Bear in mind that Ben Stein was Nixon's speechwriter. And he will defend that criminal to the death even today. Fuck him.

[SlankyLanky]

for half this thread i had a mental picture of bill nye instead of ben stein. ben steins a doucher so he thinks video games killed america boo hoo. but fucking bill nye taught me MAGIC!

[Orxudan]

[When Vonnegut tells his wife he's going out to buy an envelope] Oh, she says, well, you're not a poor man. You know, why don't you go online and buy a hundred envelopes and put them in the closet? And so I pretend not to hear her. And go out to get an envelope because I'm going to have a hell of a good time in the process of buying one envelope. I meet a lot of people. And, see some great looking babes. And a fire engine goes by. And I give them the thumbs up. And, and ask a woman what kind of dog that is. And, and I don't know. The moral of the story is, is we're here on Earth to fart around.

[Uthgaard]

was his son's name Moggok?

This post wins the thread. But moving to R&F anyway.

[fastboy21]

Yeah that whole "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" bullshit has been fucking this country over for over 240 years.

Bear in mind that Ben Stein was Nixon's speechwriter. And he will defend that criminal to the death even today. Fuck him.

there is a huge difference between having an inalienable right to pursue happiness, and having a cultural mantra of "only do what makes you feel good."

instilling hard work ethic, responsibility, sacrifice, duty, delayed gratification, etc. are social ideals that, in my opinion, have been slowly squeezed from out society. they are replaced by influences that bombard us constantly into telling our young people that "if it makes you happy it is good" and "only do what make you feel good right now."

i don't mean to exaggerate or play chicken little saying the sky is falling on our society, but i do think there has been a subtle shift in the younger generations view towards the pursuit of happiness and what exactly that means for them.

by the time my father was 26 he had been through high school, college, officer in marine corp, married, one son, divorced, taught high school, taught college, bought a home, remarried, had another son, and worked in a corporate environment. for his generation this was a "normal" experience to have by one's mid 20s...he was a man.

when i look at most people my age (myself included) i feel like i am part of a generation of "man-children." we are adults, but few of us are married, fewer have children, fewer own homes, fewer stay in the same job for long, fewer save money for things we "need", etc.

the expectations of my generation are very different from those my parents or grandparents. maybe it isn't "better" or "worse". i think there is real cause for examining the situation in our society though, because if it is a turn for the worse we will see real problems in the very basic levels of our nation before long.

[Falisaty]

Ben Stein's hate for Everquest is due to his son's addiction to it.

was gana say this.... he had to put his son in rehab for video game addiction because of everquest... i can relate to the man as i almost lost my wife to this massive wast of time that i love so much... now i play in moderation and still get to enjoy my real life.

[Harrison]

If you have to go into rehab over a videogame, just /wrist and don't reproduce before then.

If your will is that weak, it is only a matter of time until something destructive happens to you. The inanimate object, idea, substance isn't the problem. It's them.

[to0p]

Without EQ I wouldnt type ~100WPM+
With my typing skills I wrote A+ papers
Writing better papers faster gets you an Economics degree faster
EQ helped me expedite my college process
Ben Stein can suck that one.

[Humerox]

without eq ben stein's son wouldn't have become a star wrestler and football hero at that new hampshire elitist boarding school.

so eq ultimately was a good thing for him...

course the sports programs they have at Cardigan prolly allow you to send in your butler or something to sub for ya...

[Alawen Everywhere]

I think the responses in this thread are more interesting than the topic itself. I have a couple thoughts myself.

First, EverQuest is, without a doubt or any equivocation, a complete waste of time.

Second, it is your time to waste as you choose. In fact, time is the only real resource you have.

Finally, I'm much happier since I all but eliminated playing. The raid scene on P99 is kind of a drag.

[Bodeanicus]

If you have to go into rehab over a videogame, just /wrist and don't reproduce before then.

If your will is that weak, it is only a matter of time until something destructive happens to you. The inanimate object, idea, substance isn't the problem. It's them.

We don't make fun or your pathological lying to satisfy your narcissism, do we sweetheart? That's really something to /wrist yourself over.

[FrankRizzo]

nothing about any video game is inherently good or bad.

however, when people start to invest an unhealthy amount of themselves into a it, then it's an issue. this isn't just time investments... tons of people (probably the majority here) in this game have an emotional investment in the game, and their self worth is directly tied to their achievements in game.

[cadiz]

Ben Stein's hate for Everquest is due to his son's addiction to it.

Interesting, didn't know that. he goes into detail here (http://www.nyjtimes.com/Entertainment/Games/2003/Evercracked.htm)

[cadiz]

Ben Stein's hate for Everquest is due to his son's addiction to it.

wait.. this one is the best (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/17/48hours/main525964.shtml).

"Ben Stein says his son regularly stayed up all night playing. “It was as if he had a demon living inside him. I mean, it was as if he had some kind of evil spirit living inside him,” he says."

hahah an evil spirit.

[Harrison]

We don't make fun or your pathological lying to satisfy your narcissism, do we sweetheart? That's really something to /wrist yourself over.

Lol stalk my posts much?

You're obsessed. You guys should get together and jerk off to my pictures, might relieve some of that loneliness.

[Gukag]

Since practically forever there have been people whining about the decay of society and idealizing a so called golden age in the past. Unoriginal. No, you are not the holder of some incredible wisdom that has been repudiated by the disgusting hedonistic masses.

[Gukag]

I mean, if we took that type of thinking for granted, neanderthals and early homo sapiens were the height of fucking morality and excellence, which is blatantly retarded.

[fugazi]

wait.. this one is the best (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/17/48hours/main525964.shtml).

"Ben Stein says his son regularly stayed up all night playing. “It was as if he had a demon living inside him. I mean, it was as if he had some kind of evil spirit living inside him,” he says."

hahah an evil spirit.

I played EQ when I was 16, but even during raids I'd /shout omg lag, pull the plug and then go out drinking with friends. People only dive into something like EQ completely when there's nothing holding them back like friends, family or any kind of social life. There's no one to blame but the kid himself and his parents.

Yes, legal drinking age is 16 here in Holland plus we got good beer, sucks to be you.

[korrowan]

I think the responses in this thread are more interesting than the topic itself. I have a couple thoughts myself.

First, EverQuest is, without a doubt or any equivocation, a complete waste of time.

Second, it is your time to waste as you choose. In fact, time is the only real resource you have.

Finally, I'm much happier since I all but eliminated playing. The raid scene on P99 is kind of a drag.

Then stop posting here.. no one likes you.

[muddy27]

I smell trolls

"Originally Posted by Alawen Everywhere View Post
I think the responses in this thread are more interesting than the topic itself. I have a couple thoughts myself.

First, EverQuest is, without a doubt or any equivocation, a complete waste of time.

Second, it is your time to waste as you choose. In fact, time is the only real resource you have.

Finally, I'm much happier since I all but eliminated playing. The raid scene on P99 is kind of a drag."

[Massive Marc]

Interesting, didn't know that. he goes into detail here (http://www.nyjtimes.com/Entertainment/Games/2003/Evercracked.htm)

There is so many things wrong with that article, I don't know where to start.

This is just wackball:

"He is simply a demon at it. And we are the demon facilitators because we are so happy he's not using marijuana, we keep letting him play his evil Everquest.”

Really ?, you couldn't take away the computer and take the kid on a fishing trip ? Something tells me that it had more to do with Ben's parenting skills then the relentless grip Everquest had on his son.

“What would any of us do without work, which is truly the Lord's blessing upon us. Life without work is desolation, self-loathing and death. By the way, this is why I want Tommy at a structured place. I can see that if he does no work, his self-esteem vanishes"

Um... What ?

[KilyenaMage]

Nonsense. Video games make you a murderer.

Yes. A man stormed into a bank today, wielding a sword and shield and yelling "I summon the power of FIRE to aid me in battle!!!"

A security guard was quoted as saying "I counter with lightning 3" as he hit the man with his stun gun.

[Slathar]

Yes. A man stormed into a bank today, wielding a sword and shield and yelling "I summon the power of FIRE to aid me in battle!!!"

A security guard was quoted as saying "I counter with lightning 3" as he hit the man with his stun gun.

wow this guy is one of the worst posters in history

[Cyn]

Ben, please immediately Shawn Woolley yourself. iluvyou kk??

High Elf chicks are hot.


Thanks EQ for helping me ace four psych courses and four english courses for giving me a topic :D

[hedbonker]

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/037/602/original/LegendaryThread.jpg?1264515687

[Scroll]

Reading this thread has been equally a large waste of my time and life. /ragequit

[Salty]

I'd like to introduce Ben Stein to Furor.


Video games totally ruined his life.

[cadiz]

I played EQ when I was 16, but even during raids I'd /shout omg lag, pull the plug and then go out drinking with friends. People only dive into something like EQ completely when there's nothing holding them back like friends, family or any kind of social life. There's no one to blame but the kid himself and his parents.

Yes, legal drinking age is 16 here in Holland plus we got good beer, sucks to be you.

Your beer is OK, Belgium, Germany (Bavaria) and Czech Republic have you beat hands down though.

[Knuckle]

I'd like to introduce Ben Stein to Furor.


Video games totally ruined his life.

that guy was angry to begin with, reading FoH website updates was epic lols at the sheer hatred in that guys words. its a fucking video game about slaying dragons as elves and wizards

[Cyrano]

Stein is right on point.

[Harrison]

Stein is right on point.

Please, get a vasectomy. Do us all a favor.

[Cyrano]

Please, get a vasectomy. Do us all a favor.

Don't get all butthurt.

[xshayla701]

omg lol

[gnomishfirework]

Ben stein is a tool and loon. How dare he blame anything for our country's position in science when he pushes creationism.

He not only failed to acknowledge the impending economic collapse, he laughed and mocked the real economic expert who warned of it (he was specific on the causes and ended up being completely accurate as well).

I would take anything he said and just let it go in one ear and out the other. He is a fool.

[Versus]

I'd like to introduce Ben Stein to Furor.


Video games totally ruined his life.

I'd like to know more...

[Timzilla]

It's amazing, in a wtf way, that anyone would argue that playing a mmorpg to excess produces anything other than wasted time.

[omegadot]

This is remarkable from a man that makes a significant sum from BS TV shows and movies.

[Tiggles]

I'd like to introduce Ben Stein to Furor.


Video games totally ruined his life.

Not sure if sarcastic or not...

[SwordNboard]

Someone send his son a link to P99.