Loughner declined from the army, but passed a background check to buy a gun?

[Peatree]

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

something is terribly terribly wrong here....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599204144800

Don't get me wrong - I actually have a CHL to carry -- and that is actually VERY hard to earn here in Texas...so I am an advocate of being allowed to carry/protect...but WHY in the hell is it so dang easy for nuts to buy guns?

Rant on people....

:eek::eek::eek:

[VictoryARC]

I love having the right to own/carry, but the NRA lobby makes it too hard to regulate the sale of firearms to people including sociopaths. Example = Virginia Tech shooter

[Glaani]

Article about Loughner buying a Glock: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_8484c70e-f417-530c-be52-23423a32eaf7.html

Federal law establishes two categories of people who can be prohibited from buying a gun because of their mental incompetence. They are:

• Those who have been incarcerated in a mental health facility against their will.
• Those who have been accused of a crime and found mentally incompetent to stand trial.

Otherwise, in Arizona, there is little to stop even an adult who seems mentally unstable from buying a gun.

I also just read an interesting interview with a friend of Loughner's: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message

I am curious to know what his friends and family saw in him before these events. We all know someone who is a bit "off", but how do you know if they are going to lose it completely? Do we have a responsibility to watch over our friends' behavior? And report it?

[Kassel]

Why does everyone "need" a gun? Besides of course keeping the king of England out of your face.

[Nocte]

An armed society is a polite society.

[VictoryARC]

So if the world goes all 'Mad Max' on us we can defend our food and water...

[Aarone]

I was going to write something intelligent and pithy, but, somehow, I just can't stop watching Peachtree's avatar....

[Asher]

Why does everyone "need" a gun? Besides of course keeping the king of England out of your face.

Moving to Tucson a few years ago coming from Canada was a big change politically for me and it took awhile for me to get used to the fact that many people here love to carry weapons. I still remember feeling uneasy the first time I saw a biker with a gun on his belt a couple days after I moved here.

After many conversations with people, most of which are conservatives, I learned that even crazy people have the right to defend themselves against other crazy people.

I will never understand peoples fascination with guns but it is the way things are here. Gun control will never happen. They recently removed the permit that was required to conceal a weapon.

My old boss worked around the store with a gun on his belt. Several employees brought loaded weapons into work and keep them near their computer. It is a small IT company I don't know why everyone needed to be armed.

The response you will hear from people will probably be that if more people were armed at that event it probably wouldn't have gone as bad as it did.

Moving back to my freezing cold homeland has been getting more and more tempting.

Asher

[Kassel]

Come back home Asher, come back home.

I am defiantly not big "gun control" guy, but i do not understand why the IT guy "needs" an easy way to kill anyone sitting on his hip. Sure enjoy your rifle and shot gun for recreation needs, but hand guns have very little purpose other than to kill humans.

Oh well.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I will amend, they have very little purpose other then to kill. But I do agree, it seems war has been the catalyst, or the need to kill each other better for the main part of weapons advancement.

[Nocte]

Hand guns have very little purpose other than to kill humans.

If so many humans weren't so readily willing to invalidate their justification for being left alive (i.e. by raping and killing other humans, or talking at the theater), then others wouldn't have as much of a reason to need to kill them quickly and efficiently, using a tool that negates the advantages physical strength may normally have.

[Jaxon]

As long as legitimate reasons for humans killing each other exist, so too will legitimate reasons for having weapons exist.

[Peatree]

I carry simply to protect myself and my family. Been that way ever since my wife and I got mugged at knife point in the grocery store parking lot. I'll never make the mistake again of not being able to protect her / myself. I signed up for my CHL class the very next day. My wife and I both have our CHL now...yet I typically am the only one who carries...although she knows how to use one too!

I disagree with banning them -- but I do think it needs to be harder to obtain one...and if your caught with one w/ out a license then the penalty should be harsh.

[Kassel]

Its not a question about weapons "existing" it is about, does every tom dick and harry need to keep a hand gun on thier hip to feel "safe"? I am sure we can come up with better ways to achive the same peace of mind.

[Slathar]

this wouldnt have happened if everyone had a gun

[Trimm]

Tucson AZ: 500,000+ firearms owned by citizens = 51 murders in 2010.
Chicago IL: Illegal to own a firearm for any reason = #1 city in gun violence in 2010.

Criminals are called criminals for a reason. They will ALWAYS find a way to get guns, regardless of laws. "Gun Control" (i.e. gun bannings) only hurts honest citizens who wish to protect themselves. I live in a house alone and have 4 loaded weapons for a reason.

[Slathar]

arm the homeless

[Kassel]

A chicken in every pot and a cap in every ass

[Occam's Butter Knife]

Tucson AZ: 500,000+ firearms owned by citizens = 51 murders in 2010.
Chicago IL: Illegal to own a firearm for any reason = #1 city in gun violence in 2010.

Criminals are called criminals for a reason. They will ALWAYS find a way to get guns, regardless of laws. "Gun Control" (i.e. gun bannings) only hurts honest citizens who wish to protect themselves. I live in a house alone and have 4 loaded weapons for a reason.

Correlation does not equal causality.

Pop Chicago 2,853,114
Pop Tucson 543,910

Hmm so the other difference could be population. Maybe its the difference in population density in Chicago has 5x the pop per square mile. Maybe the murder rate is higher because they have White Castle in Chicago.

The UK has a lower murder rate than the US though it has a ban on hand guns. UK has .014/1,000 people while the US stands at .042/1,000. It may not be gun ownership or population density that drives the murder rates.

England does not have White Castle, so by comparison the White Castle theory holds up better that the number of registered guns owners.

[Kassel]

I think we can all agree that white castle and similar establishments cause more deaths then guns. I am interested in your theory that white castle increase the number of gun deaths. I did watch that Harold and Kumar go to White Castle movie and did feel the urge to kill so perhaps your theory has merit.

[Henini]

BAN_White_Castle

[Henini]

BAN_White_Castle

ohh yay I'm so mart!

[purist]

Criminals are called criminals for a reason. They will ALWAYS find a way to get guns, regardless of laws. "Gun Control" (i.e. gun bannings) only hurts honest citizens who wish to protect themselves.

In Arizona, you can carry a concealed weapon without a permit. Two years ago, our dumbfuck Governor also signed a law permitting guns to be carried into bars and restaurants that sell alcohol.

Carrying a gun in public here is legally sanctioned in every which way you could possibly think of. At least 20 percent of households here own a gun.

In no conceivable way, were any "honest citizens" being deterred from bringing a concealed gun to Gabrielle Giffords event to "protect themselves."

And it looks like it didn't fucking matter, now did it?

[Henini]

I live in Canada, I'm happy I don't carry, otherwise I would have killed people by now. and be in jail for life getting rapped because in jail guns aren't allowed and the guy with the physical advantage wins.

[Ihealyou]

Why not just start with banning dumb shit like 33 round clips for handguns? No one is going to need 33 bullets to defend themselves against a robber, and I don't think people hunt elephants with handguns. Obviously banning them wouldn't have stopped this from happening, but I can't think of a legitimate reason to need a clip that large. Why make it easier for the crazy people?

[Trimm]

In Arizona, you can carry a concealed weapon without a permit. Two years ago, our dumbfuck Governor also signed a law permitting guns to be carried into bars and restaurants that sell alcohol.

Carrying a gun in public here is legally sanctioned in every which way you could possibly think of. At least 20 percent of households here own a gun.

In no conceivable way, were any "honest citizens" being deterred from bringing a concealed gun to Gabrielle Giffords event to "protect themselves."

And it looks like it didn't fucking matter, now did it?

I don't disagree. I more was talking about citizens in states such as Illinois or New York where it takes an act of congress to carry a gun legally. To follow the rules and do things right, you have to jump through hoops and wait month after month to be considered. Whereas criminals will skip the process and always find ways to obtain weapons if that is what they want to do.

I don't think "Get rid of all guns" is an answer. I think steps need to be made to ensure that mentally sound and responsive individuals are allowed to own guns, and the penalty for abusing that right should be harsh. If A husband and father of four wants to buy a shotgun to keep for home protection, he should be able to do so.

[Trimm]

Also, there's going to be nuts like this regardless if guns are legal or not. Whats stopping this guy from plowing through the crowd of media and onlookers in a SUV doing 120 mph? Do we then ban all vehicles because they hurt people? I know its an old argument, but it holds some validity.

[Stibe]

I carry simply to protect myself and my family. Been that way ever since my wife and I got mugged at knife point in the grocery store parking lot. I'll never make the mistake again of not being able to protect her / myself. I signed up for my CHL class the very next day. My wife and I both have our CHL now...yet I typically am the only one who carries...although she knows how to use one too!

I disagree with banning them -- but I do think it needs to be harder to obtain one...and if your caught with one w/ out a license then the penalty should be harsh.

Just hope him/they arent close enough to stab one of you when he sees you going for a weapon.

[Fern]

I was going to write something intelligent and pithy, but, somehow, I just can't stop watching Peachtree's avatar....

haha same!

[Nocte]

Correlation does not equal causality.

Pop Chicago 2,853,114
Pop Tucson 543,910

Hmm so the other difference could be population. Maybe its the difference in population density in Chicago has 5x the pop per square mile. Maybe the murder rate is higher because they have White Castle in Chicago.

The UK has a lower murder rate than the US though it has a ban on hand guns. UK has .014/1,000 people while the US stands at .042/1,000. It may not be gun ownership or population density that drives the murder rates.

England does not have White Castle, so by comparison the White Castle theory holds up better that the number of registered guns owners.

I'll agree that this was a bad example, and I was waiting for someone to point out exactly what you just did (except for the White Castle thing).

Let's try another: The United Kingdom's violent crime rates went UP when gun bans were enacted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

[mitic]

I disagree with banning them -- but I do think it needs to be harder to obtain one...

i dont know a single civilian person in europe owning a gun nor do i know anyone whos ever been shot here

ban them guns in america, noone needs them except to invade iraq or any other 3rd world country

[Lazortag]

Trimm, it's true that crazies will always go through illegal channels to acquire guns. Hell, even where guns are legal, criminals buy guns off the black market because they're harder to trace back to them and be used as evidence against them in a trial. However, it's also true that where guns are legal, normal people who would ostensibly want guns for security reasons might have lapses in judgment and use their guns stupidly (like if someone walks in on their significant other cheating on them with someone else, and has a gun, etc.) While I think it's a bit silly to attribute the ease with which someone can get a gun in the U.S. to its high violent crime rate (as some people in this thread are doing), I'm sure you'll find that more gun ownership trends towards slightly more violent crime (which means that some places where guns are illegal might still have higher rates of violent crime than places where it's legal, but in general the places where it's legal to own a gun will have higher incidences of crime).

I think that guns are very different from SUV's (or baseball bats, knives, and other examples of objects that *could* also be used to hurt people) because they're very efficient at killing people, and they serve no purpose other than that. The utility of being able to own a car outweighs the fact that some people are able/willing to do unconscionable things with one, and even if it didn't, a car is less of a threat to the state's monopoly on violence than gun ownership is (since taking out the tires of an SUV is probably way easier than pinpointing a shooter in a huge crowd of people). Also, banning cars, or knives, or lighters, or whatever, just because they *can* be dangerous is unfair for those who use them innocently, whereas there's no "innocent" way to use a gun.

So in short, you can defend yourself with a baseball bat, or a knife, or whatever, because it's not conventionally recognized as a weapon and less likely to be used in a malicious way, while also having many non-malicious uses. Guns, on the other hand, are normally perceived as weapons and are more likely to be used spontaneously, making criminals out of innocent people who just happened to not be thinking rationally at the time.

[Harrison]

i dont know a single civilian person in europe owning a gun nor do i know anyone whos ever been shot here

ban them guns in america, noone needs them except to invade iraq or any other 3rd world country

loludumb

[yaaaflow]

loludumb

hey its another guy who was declined from the army but probably owns a gun!

[Peatree]

i dont know a single civilian person in europe owning a gun nor do i know anyone whos ever been shot here

ban them guns in america, noone needs them except to invade iraq or any other 3rd world country

Gun crime is ever where bub...just look it up...even in the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gun-crime+uk/uk

I'd rather be legally armed and trained to use it...than caught in a situation wishing I had it...whether someone had a knife, gun, bat, etc.... Hell -- if I, my wife and/or my children are ever in danger w/out a way to get out, then I will shoot first (double tap) and then deal with any type trial afterwards.

[Seeatee]

what happened in AZ is terrible and a huge tragedy and unimaginable loss, that being said you can not take away peoples rights to own guns because of the few whackos on the fringe who can not play nice - if this guy didnt have access to a gun maybe he would have built a bomb, or drove a car into the crowd if he was so motived and wanted to hurt this person he would have found a way gun or no gun.

what we do need is deeper background checks and stricter screening processes saying who can and can not get a gun.

as it is right now, not so many people carry guns.

lets say you are a robber, you are walking down the street and find a nice juicy victim, as it is right now, the odds are a solid 99% chance they do not have a gun, you will rob them and get away no problem.

now lets say half of all people had guns - not just the bad guys but half of all people own a gun and carry it.

again you are a robber and your walking down the street and see a guy leaving the ATM, you still going to rob him knowing there is a 50% chance if you do, you are going to get shot in the face?

how many guys would rape women if they know there is a 50% chance if they do, they are getting a hot lead injection to the dome?

and to end my thoughts, one of my all time favorite quotes.

"If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns"

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

quote - "lets say you are a robber, you are walking down the street and find a nice juicy victim, as it is right now, the odds are a solid 99% chance they do not have a gun, you will rob them and get away no problem.

now lets say half of all people had guns - not just the bad guys but half of all people own a gun and carry it.

again you are a robber and your walking down the street and see a guy leaving the ATM, you still going to rob him knowing there is a 50% chance if you do, you are going to get shot in the face?"

Yeah, the criminals will just give up and find other professions. Lol. Um, maybe they will simply no longer be so polite as to ask for the money before they shoot, stab, tazer, etc...

[Stibe]

quote - "lets say you are a robber, you are walking down the street and find a nice juicy victim, as it is right now, the odds are a solid 99% chance they do not have a gun, you will rob them and get away no problem.

now lets say half of all people had guns - not just the bad guys but half of all people own a gun and carry it.

again you are a robber and your walking down the street and see a guy leaving the ATM, you still going to rob him knowing there is a 50% chance if you do, you are going to get shot in the face?"

Yeah, the criminals will just give up and find other professions. Lol. Um, maybe they will simply no longer be so polite as to ask for the money before they shoot, stab, tazer, etc...

Nah, if i was a robber and knew there was a 50% chance i was going to get shot, i'd just kill him instead of it just being a robbery.

[skulldudes]

ban guns; people stab each other

[Bushwick]

Violent crime is largely associated with poverty, lack of education and drug addiction. Banning guns won't stop crime, and I sincerely doubt widespread arming of the populace would deter it either. If an assailant suspects you are armed he isn't going to stand behind you and call "Draw!" before shooting you. If you want to reduce crime, go ahead and support sane restrictions on gun ownership and usage, but strongly consider supporting increases to social services like welfare, public health care and job creation for the unemployed.

A better argument for banning would be that gun hobbyists are creeeeepy and have morbid fantasies about home intruders.

[Nedala]

Just look at countries where its not piss easy to get guns, very few people get shoot in this countries, it could be so easy but guess most americans are blind.

[Harrison]

Yeah, let's increase welfare so people can buy more lobster and tenderloin steak every first of the month!

[Kassel]

This is an interesting link, sort by homicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[Occam's Butter Knife]

what happened in AZ is terrible and a huge tragedy and unimaginable loss, that being said you can not take away peoples rights to own guns because of the few whackos on the fringe who can not play nice - if this guy didnt have access to a gun maybe he would have built a bomb, or drove a car into the crowd if he was so motived and wanted to hurt this person he would have found a way gun or no gun.

what we do need is deeper background checks and stricter screening processes saying who can and can not get a gun.

as it is right now, not so many people carry guns.

lets say you are a robber, you are walking down the street and find a nice juicy victim, as it is right now, the odds are a solid 99% chance they do not have a gun, you will rob them and get away no problem.

now lets say half of all people had guns - not just the bad guys but half of all people own a gun and carry it.

again you are a robber and your walking down the street and see a guy leaving the ATM, you still going to rob him knowing there is a 50% chance if you do, you are going to get shot in the face?

how many guys would rape women if they know there is a 50% chance if they do, they are getting a hot lead injection to the dome?

and to end my thoughts, one of my all time favorite quotes.

"If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns"

That's the fantasy the reality is that most gun owners who shoot someone do so in a fit of anger (pick your own volatile emotion) not self defense. Accidents make up another good portion. Found this article while looking for the FBI pie chart but this shows the same point more starkly.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html

The percentage of people owning guns has declined since the 1980's yet so has the number of violent crimes. Gun ownership in Columbia is higher than in the US, yet the number of deaths due to violent crimes is much higher. This does not support the current NRA talking points tossed into this thread.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Shit. I had something to say about this but then that Asian girl with the big bouncy boobs came running in several hundred times and... who the hell are you people?

[boboo]

Nah, if i was a robber and knew there was a 50% chance i was going to get shot, i'd just kill him instead of it just being a robbery.

Id like a pro-gun person to respond to that one

[Hoggen]

Nah, if i was a robber and knew there was a 50% chance i was going to get shot, i'd just kill him instead of it just being a robbery.

There was a murder case recently tried and settled where two men did a home invasion and set the house on fire after raping and torturing a pre-teen girl and her mother. The father lived; the mother and daughter burned alive. I don't know if any of them had guns, but no one was shot. You don't need guns to murder. You don't need to worry about guns to want to murder anyone. If you have a gun, you may be able to defend yourself, or you may not. I just don't see it as anyone elses business as to whether anyone should choose to own a gun, and the SCOTUS agrees with me, in spite of being nearly half communist.

Nedala-Just look at countries where its not piss easy to get guns, very few people get shoot in this countries, it could be so easy but guess most americans are blind.

Not many people may have been shot to death in Rwanda, even though guns are likely easy to get if you have money, but over 800,000 were hacked to death with machetes and all manner of attrocities commited prior to those deaths. Again, guns do not equal murderous intent, nor do they guarantee safety, but your viewpoint is decidedly ignorant and one-sided.

[Slathar]

Yeah, let's increase welfare so people can buy more lobster and tenderloin steak every first of the month!

fat hillbilly, gun freak against social programs. shocking.

also a military reject. i didnt even think this was possible unless you were clinically brain dead.

in short, you're fat.

[skulldudes]

no he's right man. poor people should not be allowed to eat good food. ONLY PORRIDGE AND MAYBE GRUEL IF THEY'RE LUCKY

[nalkin]

Lol pulling out a gun on someone robbing you is probably a good way to get you and/or whoever you are with killed. I'd rather just give him a 20 and walk away.

[skulldudes]

but it worked in deathwish!

[Hoggen]

Lol pulling out a gun on someone robbing you is probably a good way to get you and/or whoever you are with killed. I'd rather just give him a 20 and walk away.

Yeah. But what if he just wants to rape your cute prison butt and make you watch him skull-f your friend? You're not thinking inside the bun, Nalkin!

[nalkin]

Yeah. But what if he just wants to rape your cute prison butt and make you watch him skull-f your friend? You're not thinking inside the bun, Nalkin!

Well to be honest I hadn't thought about that scenario...

[Crover_CT99]

Moving to Tucson a few years ago coming from Canada was a big change politically for me and it took awhile for me to get used to the fact that many people here love to carry weapons. I still remember feeling uneasy the first time I saw a biker with a gun on his belt a couple days after I moved here.

After many conversations with people, most of which are conservatives, I learned that even crazy people have the right to defend themselves against other crazy people.

I will never understand peoples fascination with guns but it is the way things are here. Gun control will never happen. They recently removed the permit that was required to conceal a weapon.

My old boss worked around the store with a gun on his belt. Several employees brought loaded weapons into work and keep them near their computer. It is a small IT company I don't know why everyone needed to be armed.

The response you will hear from people will probably be that if more people were armed at that event it probably wouldn't have gone as bad as it did.

Moving back to my freezing cold homeland has been getting more and more tempting.

Asher

I would assume this is far from the truth in most American cities, though. I have never seen someone carrying a gun in public, and I'm from Texas.

The truth, in my opinion, is that you can have peace of mind with or without a gun. Whatever works for you. All our opinions on the subject will have little effect on someone walking up to you at random and pulling the trigger.

[Azazel]

hey I live in uk and I dont really give a shit about your gun laws if you all want to own them thats fine by me but dont pretend that that this has nothing to do with the x20+ firearm related death rate.

[Nocte]

Id like a pro-gun person to respond to that one

If I was a robber and there was a 50% chance of getting shot I would rob an easier target.

[skulldudes]

let's talk about knife crime in the uk :3

[Nocte]

Id like a pro-gun person to respond to that one

If I was a robber and there was a 50% chance of getting shot by my intended target or any of the people around him, I would probably choose to not rob anyone in the area.

If I was a robber and I felt that everyone around me was carrying a firearm and there was a 50% chance of getting shot, I probably wouldn't want to be a robber anymore.

[purist]

Nocte's right. Arizona is a perfect example of how his theory works in the real world. We have probably the most lax gun possession laws in the country. You can carry a concealed weapon here without a permit. You can legally bring a concealed weapon into a bar or restaurant that sell alcohol.

So, Jared Loughner knew there was a good chance someone at that rally could be strapped and he could end up getting shot by his intended targets. So instead, he went "Naaaaaaaaaaaahhh!" and totally

a) chose not to do it in an area with gun laws like that; or

b) didn't want to shoot anyone anymore

[Azazel]

let's talk about knife crime in the uk :3

no one is stopping you what your point?

[skulldudes]

i'm just being cute

[Trimm]

I understand people's reason for being both pro and anti gun, so I won't argue either way. I'm personally pro-gun for those who have the training and responsibility to be able to safely own one. I own 2 for personal protection and two for target/range shooting as a hobby. It's a lot of fun. Not all of us gun-owners are reckneck idiots :).

To those who are anti-gun, I'll ask one question: When you are home asleep with your family and someone kicks in your back door, what will you do? I hope your local law enforcement has a quick response time.

Even anti-gun democrats own guns for personal protection: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/bio/userletter/?id=3181&letter_id=4494699056

[Kassel]

I have a 6 cell mag light (not even sure if its legal anymore ) under the bed, you know in case the lights go out...and a baseball bat in living room down stairs with easy access. I am Canadian so it would be rare that an intruder would have a gun, in fact more often then not its a teenager or a crack head. If they do have a gun, i help them load up my various electronics into their van then call my insurance agent. I am not really anti gun, just not pro gun, (am i allowed to be in the middle ?? maybe i am anti hand gun i really dont know)

[Nocte]

Nocte's right. Arizona is a perfect example of how his theory works in the real world. We have probably the most lax gun possession laws in the country. You can carry a concealed weapon here without a permit. You can legally bring a concealed weapon into a bar or restaurant that sell alcohol.

So, Jared Loughner knew there was a good chance someone at that rally could be strapped and he could end up getting shot by his intended targets. So instead, he went "Naaaaaaaaaaaahhh!" and totally

a) chose not to do it in an area with gun laws like that; or

b) didn't want to shoot anyone anymore

Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote.

If I was a robber

I'm not Jared Loughner.

Of course, citizens' gun ownership isn't going to abolish crime. That you even implied that based on my post is a sign that you're running out of legitimate arguments.

Common sense and self-preservation ideals don't fully apply to mentally ill individuals who may be drawn to commit violent acts, but for the opportunistic criminals who prey on those weaker than them, gun ownership is an effective deterrent.

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under the threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of these two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on an equal footing with a 200-pound mugger, a 75-year-old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year-old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a (armed) mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat, it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong and the many, and that is the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then, there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party, inflicting overwhelmingly injury on the loser. People that think that fists, bats, sticks or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip, at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of the octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I do not carry it because I am afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

Here is another short quote that makes the same point. I can’t remember who said it, so let’s just chalk this one up to anonymous:

"God didn’t make all men equal, Sam Colt did."

[john_savage1982]

"Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true.[Note 1][1] As a result, people gather evidence and recall information from memory selectively, and interpret it in a biased way. The biases appear in particular for emotionally significant issues and for established beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[purist]

No shit you weren't, but you were still positing that crime (e.g., robbery) can be reduced by making access to guns more available and oversimplifying a complex problem. When caught on your canard, you proceeded to insert a series of extremely restrictive qualifiers you had neglected to specify in your initial post ("opportunistic criminals").

Try again.

[Nocte]

you proceeded to insert a series of extremely restrictive qualifiers you had neglected to specify in your initial post ("opportunistic criminals").

Pretty sure that's not what happened. Go read it again.

[Nocte]

Also, there's no reason to get crazy defensive about this. It's not as if they're going to write legislation based on this thread's discussion. None of this really matters, except to state our cases and realize that we don't agree.

[john_savage1982]

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://pugetsoundblogs.com/bremertonbeat/files/2008/10/neckbeardihazit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pugetsoundblogs.com/bremertonbeat/2008/10/30/the-neck-beard-cometh/&usg=__OyqkVwPQ09_KU9ENdaaIASjAhAg=&h=329&w=436&sz=20&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=xQEs-RWy8l4PFM:&tbnh=152&tbnw=201&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dneckbeard%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN %26biw%3D1710%26bih%3D947%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C342&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=382&ei=XQAsTZaHB4GB8gb68OSuCg&oei=XQAsTZaHB4GB8gb68OSuCg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=49&ved=1t:429,r:30,s:0&tx=119&ty=51&biw=1710&bih=947

[john_savage1982]

http://pugetsoundblogs.com/bremertonbeat/files/2008/10/neckbeardihazit.jpg

[purist]

Pretty sure that's not what happened. Go read it again.

It's pretty simple, dude. You tried to posit a relationship between gun ownership and crime ("If I was a robber and I felt that everyone around me was carrying a firearm and there was a 50% chance of getting shot, I probably wouldn't want to be a robber anymore"). When I posted why I think that argument was a canard, you proceeded to insert disqualifiers ("not mentally ill individuals who may be drawn to commit violent acts") and qualifiers ("opportunistic criminals who prey on those weaker than them").

Btw, and I'm all for gun ownership, I just think the arguments that crime can be reduced by (a) restricting access to guns; or (b) making them more available are equally spurious. You only seem to think that (a) first one is.

[Hoggen]

Btw, and I'm all for gun ownership, I just think the arguments that crime can be reduced by (a) restricting access to guns; or (b) making them more available are equally spurious. You only seem to think that (a) first one is.

I don't have time to research, but I'm pretty sure that crime is generally higher in areas where gun laws are more restrictive, and that crime statistically rises when new gun laws are imposed. Someone claimed earlier that it happened in the UK.

[purist]

There is no causal relationship.

Don't posit a claim if you're too lazy to do the research.

[LevinJ]

Why I own a gun: I am not good at being a victim. And I would rather risk my life than live the rest of my life knowing that my wife/other family/similar was hurt when I know that I could have done something to protect them. For better or worse, I live in a society where guns are prevalent and where local law enforcement is in a public union that sometimes slows down their response rate when they have pay and contract disputes (or when they feel like it).

This is not idle chat or a random feeling from watching movies. I am in the military and I am a combat veteran. I know what it means to carry a gun, be shot at, and to contemplate the consequences of pulling the trigger. I currently own a shotgun which is within arms reach while I sleep. It has rounds in the magazine but not in the chamber.

There have been break-ins in my town recently, largely because they know the police are slow to respond. My wife is pregnant and if I thought someone had broke into my home, I would be on a hair trigger. Don't like this? Don't break into my home. I currently live in a state where getting concealed carry license is near impossible, regrettably. We are moving soon to another state and I plan on getting a conceal carry license as soon as possible. I am a Catholic and I strongly oppose needlessly taking another life. But defense of my family from an aggressor is another thing entirely.

A female co-worker of mine was driving the other day at night through the city and someone ran up to her stopped car at a red light and mugged her at gun point. At the nearby university I attend, there have been similar muggings (mostly at knife point) and sexual assaults. Maybe a dozen in the past year. I don't think those criminals could even tell you what the laws for concealed carry or lawful gun possession are in my state.

Would I prefer that the world was different? Yes. Am I eager to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger? No. Am I aware that the odds of me or my immediate family being a victim of crime are significantly high, no matter what precautions I take? Yes. Just the world we live in.

[Peatree]

I have a 6 cell mag light (not even sure if its legal anymore ) under the bed, you know in case the lights go out...and a baseball bat in living room down stairs with easy access. I am Canadian so it would be rare that an intruder would have a gun, in fact more often then not its a teenager or a crack head. If they do have a gun, i help them load up my various electronics into their van then call my insurance agent. I am not really anti gun, just not pro gun, (am i allowed to be in the middle ?? maybe i am anti hand gun i really dont know)

I agree in not using lethal force over simple possesions. If someone was breaking into my car -- I'd simply call the cops and let them deal with it. Not storm out there guns blazing telling them to "freeze".

Here is what concerns me. What would happen if teenager/crack head/home invader came in with a gun and decided to not only rob you -- but also rape your daughter/wife/girlfriend...and all you had was your mag light....what now?

Again -- I'd rather have it, be trained on it, know how to use it and when to use it....than not....make sense?

[Contact]

I agree in not using lethal force over simple possesions. If someone was breaking into my car -- I'd simply call the cops and let them deal with it. Not storm out there guns blazing telling them to "freeze".

Here is what concerns me. What would happen if teenager/crack head/home invader came in with a gun and decided to not only rob you -- but also rape your daughter/wife/girlfriend...and all you had was your mag light....what now?

Again -- I'd rather have it, be trained on it, know how to use it and when to use it....than not....make sense?

You having a gun in that scenario means squat. They have a gun pointed at your loved one, presumably, so how the hell will you having one help at all?

[LevinJ]

Oh, and on a side note, I understand he was denied to the army because he did not pass a drug test (apparently he is a pot head). The army probably does not release those drug tests to police, as this could hurt recruiting if people were afraid that they faced being criminally charged if anything came out while they were talking to a military recruiter.

[Peatree]

You having a gun in that scenario means squat. They have a gun pointed at your loved one, presumably, so how the hell will you having one help at all?

Ridiculous comment. There are too many assumptions in this scenario...you are assuming that they have a gun pointed at them, assuming they got inside without being noticed, assuming our dog doesn't alert us, assuming everything...life isn't a movie nor is it a sitcom.

If I was in a scenario where someone had a gun holding someone hostage...then that is a totally different scenario. In fact we can role play and argue scenario's all day long...but why? It doesn't matter.

My point being -- if the only option I had was a mag light from the beginning of the scenario, then I have limited option as to how I can respond versus if I am armed then I can choose how I react.

The real problem in my opinion is that it is too easy to first obtain a firearm...and there are no real punishments if you are caught with one illegally.

In my opinion, to own a handgun for personal defense then you should have to pass a test...just like driving a car...but a more thorough test with a background check. It should also require you to stay legal -- hence be tested regularly in order to keep your license to own/carry.

If your caught without being licensed then the penalty should be very harsh...in fact I think a viable option would be to not only punish the person that is not licensed -- but to also punish the establishment/person for selling/providing a firearm to an unlicensed person.

I do understand that any system is flawed -- but we need to have something...as it stand right now it is to "loose"...obviously...

[Nocte]

It's pretty simple, dude.

It is pretty simple. I was talking about myself and how I would choose to act if I were a violent criminal (and implying that there are probably those who think and act similarly).

I wasn't relating it to the blanket definition of crime. This seems to be where you aren't seeing what I'm saying.

[Occam's Butter Knife]

I don't have time to research, but I'm pretty sure that crime is generally higher in areas where gun laws are more restrictive, and that crime statistically rises when new gun laws are imposed. Someone claimed earlier that it happened in the UK.

There's a better relationship between White Castle and violent crime than between gun bans and violent crime.

[boboo]

I think some americans lack the detachment needed to approach this question. As a montrealer, i dont need a gun to defend myself because its a pretty safe city. I dont live in a society where guns are omnipresent and some loony takes out 10 people once every few months (it happened in 1989 though).

Dont you think that maybe, just maybe if guns werent so omnipresent as they are in american society and without gun companies wanting to make money off that then defending yourself wouldnt be a problem youd have to think as long and hard about?

[Kassel]

Is it true? Do I really agree with Taxi ?? What is this world coming to.

I guess when you live in a country where people are not killed every day with guns you have a different perspective on the need for them in the first place.

[Ihealyou]

I didn't actually read this, but since everyone here is making up facts and using hypotheticals, I thought it might help.

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Measures_of_Gun_Ownership_Levels_for_Macro-Level_Crime_and_Violence_Research.pdf

[DaBlitz]

Guns as with any tool can be misused by People, but they dont use themselves ergo the problem is People. Our problem is the way we deal with the People who commit such acts. I still see Loughner being labeled as "alleged" shooter or "accused" shooter. He DID IT, plenty of people witnessed the crime. So why wasted years and years of time and money in the Justice System. Don't care about any of the "why" he did it. he just did it. Now why waste years and money on him (even giving him a chance to some day do it again, ever how remote that is). We need a hanging Judge court for the obviously guilty and just have them taken out back and show them they same courtesy they have shown others. Spend a decade with this type court and you can bet the US numbers will drop as low as those countries proud of the fact they restrict and indivdual's right to bear arms.

[boboo]

Is it true? Do I really agree with Taxi ?? What is this world coming to.

I guess when you live in a country where people are not killed every day with guns you have a different perspective on the need for them in the first place.

But thats my point though, the fact that people are killed every day is like a vicious circle. People get killed often because guns are omnipresent so people get guns to defend themselves.

It was like when i was in New York, some jesus freak started to talk to me and my reaction was to do what i usually do in Montreal when some people who pass these latter day saints leaflets try to talk to me which is to poke a little fun at them for my amusement and move on (like telling them that I am god).

But then i remembered where i was, Queens NY and all of a sudden the thought that came into my mind was "this motherfucker might just stab you for saying that yeah you are prepared to take the chance to go to hell by not beleiving in god". So i rapidly steered cleared of stabbing distance and moved along quickly.

I understand some of the need and want of americans to defend themselves, i just think its a downward spiral and americans need a big soul searching if they dont want their society to implode like a black hole, although my opinion is that it might be a little too late for that.

[boboo]

Guns as with any tool can be misused by People, but they dont use themselves ergo the problem is People. Our problem is the way we deal with the People who commit such acts. I still see Loughner being labeled as "alleged" shooter or "accused" shooter. He DID IT, plenty of people witnessed the crime. So why wasted years and years of time and money in the Justice System. Don't care about any of the "why" he did it. he just did it. Now why waste years and money on him (even giving him a chance to some day do it again, ever how remote that is). We need a hanging Judge court for the obviously guilty and just have them taken out back and show them they same courtesy they have shown others. Spend a decade with this type court and you can bet the US numbers will drop as low as those countries proud of the fact they restrict and indivdual's right to bear arms.

Im sure that would have stopped someone like Jared Loughner, right?

[Winobot]

Sadly, I've only met eurotools who pretend to give a damn about our problems because its trendy to do so. Wearing bush shirts, pins, stop the bomb/war/us. My question is -- what the hell are YOU doing about it?

[moklianne]

We live in a not so great community. With that said, having a gun in the house would make me more worried for the wellbeing of the children in the house than the rare chance an invader would break in. Like someone said earlier, its whatever makes you feel safer, I just know that guns in the house wouldn't make me feel any safer.

Thankfully, we are moving out soon to a much nicer neighborhood, a bit more rural. It'll be nice to let the kids play outside and not have to be on top of them.

Perhaps those of you who live in fear should do the same? I don't understand why anyone would go through that fear everyday.

[moklianne]

Guns as with any tool can be misused by People, but they dont use themselves ergo the problem is People. Our problem is the way we deal with the People who commit such acts. I still see Loughner being labeled as "alleged" shooter or "accused" shooter. He DID IT, plenty of people witnessed the crime. So why wasted years and years of time and money in the Justice System. Don't care about any of the "why" he did it. he just did it. Now why waste years and money on him (even giving him a chance to some day do it again, ever how remote that is). We need a hanging Judge court for the obviously guilty and just have them taken out back and show them they same courtesy they have shown others. Spend a decade with this type court and you can bet the US numbers will drop as low as those countries proud of the fact they restrict and indivdual's right to bear arms.

Slippery slope. Everyone is supposed to get a fair trial. Regardless of the crime. Its kind of in the Constitution and all...

This is done because the system does make mistakes. There have been quite a few people that were mistakenly put on death row, just to be exonerated due to 'new' evidence.

Finding out why they do these things is to try to understand them to try to prevent them in the future.

[Asher]

I have a 6 cell mag light (not even sure if its legal anymore ) under the bed, you know in case the lights go out...and a baseball bat in living room down stairs with easy access. I am Canadian so it would be rare that an intruder would have a gun, in fact more often then not its a teenager or a crack head. If they do have a gun, i help them load up my various electronics into their van then call my insurance agent.

That is pretty much how I look at it too. Breaking into a home knowing people are allowed to have weapons means that I kill on sight. Breaking into a home knowing that they wont have weapons I tie them up and rob them.

I don't think we have much of a break into your home and rape problem in Canada but I am sure it happens.

Most Canadians prefer our gun control system IMO.

Asher

[Asher]

There's a better relationship between White Castle and violent crime than between gun bans and violent crime.

I think I once heard that KFC cures cancer. :D

Asher

[boboo]

That is pretty much how I look at it too. Breaking into a home knowing people are allowed to have weapons means that I kill on sight. Breaking into a home knowing that they wont have weapons I tie them up and rob them.

I don't think we have much of a break into your home and rape problem in Canada but I am sure it happens.

Most Canadians prefer our gun control system IMO.

Asher

The only "robber" i came across in 2 decades in Montreal is the homeless guy taking the cans out of my recycling bin each week that i leave there on purpose for him XD

I live in the most dangerous neighboorhood in Montreal (Mercier) for robberies and more often than not the backdoor is unlocked.

[Kassel]

This conversation reminds me of a movie i watched this weekend, Planet Terror. This woman is driving away from killer Zombies, she gets to her fathers house and tells her Kid to stay in the car. She hands him a gun from the glove box and says "if anyone comes near the car you shoot them, its like your video games just aim and shoot, DO NOT point the gun at yourself" she gets out of the car, heads inside and not 3 seconds later, BLAMO, dead kid.

I laughed.

[Stibe]

The only "robber" i came across in 2 decades in Montreal is the homeless guy taking the cans out of my recycling bin each week that i leave there on purpose for him XD

I live in the most dangerous neighboorhood in Montreal (Mercier) for robberies and more often than not the backdoor is unlocked.

Thought NDG was the worst.

[boboo]

Thought NDG was the worst.

I lived in NDG for a year, and its probably true that NDG is the most dangerous neighboorhood with south central, RDP maybe. Its the first time i heard gunshots in MTL and seen those steel curtain NY style thingies. But statistically, Mercier is the worst for robberies.

[KilyenaMage]

How come all of these people who "love to carry guns" are never carrying when the psychos start shooting!?!

Cooks like this guy are the reason I own guns -- someone shoulda just shot the kid.

[boboo]

In related news, the Westboro Baptist church in Kansas praised Jared Lee Loughner for killing six people:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/11/tuscon-residents-funeral-christina-taylor-green

[boboo]

They also plan to picket the 9 yo girl's funeral, with im guessing tasteful signs like "God hates catholics" and "Thank god for Jared Lee Loughner"

[boboo]

*which im guessing*

[boboo]

fuckin no edits lol

[Peatree]

In related news, the Westboro Baptist church in Kansas praised Jared Lee Loughner for killing six people:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/11/tuscon-residents-funeral-christina-taylor-green

...I loathe these people...if you can even call them that...they actually protested my building here in Dallas a while back since there is jewish newspaper in it...ironically there were only about 15 of them....and about 200 anti-protesters shouting them down...

I wish there was a way to protect our freedom of speech but yet still somehow find a way to put these people away as well. :mad:

[nilbog]

I wish there was a way to protect our freedom of speech but yet still somehow find a way to put these people away as well. :mad:

Assault charges usually carry only a misdemeanor penalty.

[guineapig]

To the people that own and carry guns around all over the place for protection.

If somebody pulled a gun on you (you do not yet know the reason why), Do you grab for your gun right away and hope that you can:

1. unholster it,
2. cock it and
3. shoot it

before they have time to pull the trigger?

If not, you gun isn't really protecting you. Now the gun in the house argument has a little more weight as... if you are a light sleeper, you might wake up to a home intrusion in time to arm yourself. If your both carrying though chances are you will both get shot.

[Peatree]

To the people that own and carry guns around all over the place for protection.

If somebody pulled a gun on you (you do not yet know the reason why), Do you grab for your gun right away and hope that you can:

1. unholster it,
2. cock it and
3. shoot it

before they have time to pull the trigger?

If not, you gun isn't really protecting you. Now the gun in the house argument has a little more weight as... if you are a light sleeper, you might wake up to a home intrusion in time to arm yourself. If your both carrying though chances are you will both get shot.

...easy....watch and learn....:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcVDmX4ho4

[guineapig]

...easy....watch and learn....:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcVDmX4ho4

Just as I though. Too much TV and movies on the brain. :p
(I figured the video would be of Quickdraw McGraw or something :D)

I must have a criminal mind then, because I would tell you to pick it back up. Taking your eyes off the victim is just dumb. :rolleyes:

[boboo]

...easy....watch and learn....:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcVDmX4ho4

This immediately brought to mind this star trek scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4xMQevkpI&feature=related

[Peatree]

This immediately brought to mind this star trek scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4xMQevkpI&feature=related

...they should remake that scene "Matrix style"!

[Glaani]

...I loathe these people...if you can even call them that...they actually protested my building here in Dallas a while back since there is jewish newspaper in it...ironically there were only about 15 of them....and about 200 anti-protesters shouting them down...

I wish there was a way to protect our freedom of speech but yet still somehow find a way to put these people away as well. :mad:

I was there with the counter-protesters outside the Jewish Newspaper! :)

And because I absolutely loved the people at the protest, some gratuitous signs from that day:

[Peatree]

I was there with the counter-protesters outside the Jewish Newspaper! :)

And because I absolutely loved the people at the protest, some gratuitous signs from that day:

Too funny -- the building in the background of the picture is my office!

[Hoggen]

I can't stand Michael Moore, but this is funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_fAYl4Th4

[Hoggen]

To the people that own and carry guns around all over the place for protection.

If somebody pulled a gun on you (you do not yet know the reason why), Do you grab for your gun right away and hope that you can:

1. unholster it,
2. cock it and
3. shoot it

before they have time to pull the trigger?



You left out the scenario that directly relates to this story: a maniac shooting at a crowd. He isn't necessarily aware of every person within shooting range, and anyone with a gun can potentially stop him faster than someone without.

[Stibe]

You left out the scenario that directly relates to this story: a maniac shooting at a crowd. He isn't necessarily aware of every person within shooting range, and anyone with a gun can potentially stop him faster than someone without.

Lol, so now we have a group of people with guns thinking they are saving the world shooting at one amn in a crowd. Ya, that wont casue more problems....

[Hoggen]

Lol, so now we have a group of people with guns thinking they are saving the world shooting at one amn in a crowd. Ya, that wont casue more problems....

Yeah. You're right Stibe. Guns are useless and everyone that owns one is Jared Loughner. Might as well just lay down and die if a crazy person starts popping with his first 33 rounds before reloading another 32. You got me dude.

[Kassel]

You left out the scenario that directly relates to this story: a maniac shooting at a crowd. He isn't necessarily aware of every person within shooting range, and anyone with a gun can potentially stop him faster than someone without

Life is not a Movie and your not james bond.

[Hoggen]

Life is not a Movie and your not james bond.

And "your" not grammatically correct, as usual. My closest friend can drop three moving targets in one second from holster to third target. He's 60 and has an arsenal. He's never shot anyone but if he had to, you can be sure they'd get the worst of it. I'm not nearly as good a shot, but I'll take my chances with a gun over ducking for cover in a parking lot.

Also, if guns are so useless, I suppose you suggest police and military also not be allowed to carry them? Or are government workers our best hope for protection?

[Hoggen]

Oh, and guinea? You don't have to cock modern semi-automatic pistols. The Glock that uncle Fester used doesn't even have a safety.

[purist]

So, why aren't any of these people you brag about how they carry around a gun in the case of a Jared Loughner and can drop 3 moving targets in 0.001 seconds ever carrying a gun when the actual Jared Loughner is mowing down civilian after screaming civilian?

[Kassel]

Also, if guns are so useless, I suppose you suggest police and military also not be allowed to carry them? Or are government workers our best hope for protection?

Right, because that's exactly what i have been preaching this whole thread. I think we should melt all guns down into a pile of iron then pray to our new iron pile god. But of course some asshole would then hold the world hostage with a board with a nail in it.

No one at any point said guns are useless. In fact many ahve been very clear on the one use they do have. If you are going to partake in this discussion can at least try and be rational and use common sense. This is not a radio show and your not Sarah Palin.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb2ud23T871qdoghio1_500.png

/sigh

[boboo]

And "your" not grammatically correct, as usual. My closest friend can drop three moving targets in one second from holster to third target. He's 60 and has an arsenal. He's never shot anyone but if he had to, you can be sure they'd get the worst of it. I'm not nearly as good a shot, but I'll take my chances with a gun over ducking for cover in a parking lot.

Also, if guns are so useless, I suppose you suggest police and military also not be allowed to carry them? Or are government workers our best hope for protection?

You know who else was fuming about people's grammar? Jared Lee Loughner, just a thought.

We had a guy like Loughner 2 years ago i think in Montreal, he only killed one person because cops disobeyed orders to wait for the swat teams and took him out. Im what most americans would consider a "communist" and I was proud of that cop because he saved lives.

You see, thats a cop's job, not opening up people's head with his baton at protests, not dressing as a protester and pretend hes about to throw a rock at cops to give them an excuse to beat people up. Not harassing latino people because they are latino.

If cops would stick to violent crimes, then im sure america would be a much safer place. Thats why i liked amsterdam so much, the crime rate is very low because cops focus on violent crimes. They dont care if you smoke a joint, if youre drunk in the streets, or even if you smoke crack as long as you keep to yourself and dont cause trouble. I expected Amsterdam to be really bad, sorta like a smaller New York City with junkies trying to rob me with rusted scissors and instead i found a city that felt like a big farm with most of the people being jolly and friendly toward strangers. The only assholes i saw was the tourists in the red light who seemed to treat prostitutes like cattle.

[Stibe]

Yeah. You're right Stibe. Guns are useless and everyone that owns one is Jared Loughner. Might as well just lay down and die if a crazy person starts popping with his first 33 rounds before reloading another 32. You got me dude.

So one guy starts shooting, now you have say 4 more people shooting at him, all in a crowd. Police hear nothing but gunshots and see people with weapons. What do you think is going to happen?

[Hoggen]

Trying to compare Canada or Europe to the US is like trying to compare an insane asylum to a pre-school. Culture and genetics go much further in determining how many people are going to go nuts or be violent than the prevalence of firearms.

Hassel... rather than go back and forth trying to see who can piss the farthest, I'll say my peace and end my participation in your ever-so highbrowed and impossibly perfect thread.

In the US, I have the right to own a gun.
I would like to see the liberal laws that make it nearly impossible to track juvenile offenders erased. This nut would never have seen a permit if his actions had been available for review.
In spite of the belief of people that spend most of their lives in front of a computer screen, many people have proficiency with firearms, and are still perfectly good citizens that would never commit a crime or kill someone in anger.

That's about all there is to it. Fear me and my neighbors if you like. We all have guns. I hear people practicing with rifles at least once a week. Most of my friends hunt, and most of them can hit a target with a pistol at 75 yards with a 6 inch pattern from a full clip. I'm sure many would have trouble killing someone, but I'd trust them to be there for me over a cop anyday. I've seen cops take 10 minutes to show up in a large metropolitan area, or in the country.
This creep killed 6 and wounded another 14 in less than two minutes.

[Slathar]

So one guy starts shooting, now you have say 4 more people shooting at him, all in a crowd. Police hear nothing but gunshots and see people with weapons. What do you think is going to happen?

they engage in a socially open and nuanced conversation about the pros and cons of what is currently taking place

[Stibe]

they engage in a socially open and nuanced conversation about the pros and cons of what is currently taking place

lol.


I'm all for gun ownership. It shouldn't be as easy as it is tho.

[john_savage1982]

Guns as with any tool can be misused by People, but they dont use themselves ergo the problem is People. Our problem is the way we deal with the People who commit such acts. I still see Loughner being labeled as "alleged" shooter or "accused" shooter. He DID IT, plenty of people witnessed the crime. So why wasted years and years of time and money in the Justice System. Don't care about any of the "why" he did it. he just did it. Now why waste years and money on him (even giving him a chance to some day do it again, ever how remote that is). We need a hanging Judge court for the obviously guilty and just have them taken out back and show them they same courtesy they have shown others. Spend a decade with this type court and you can bet the US numbers will drop as low as those countries proud of the fact they restrict and indivdual's right to bear arms.

You sound like Uthgaard - shoot first, don't ask questions later. You also sound like somebody who thinks things are what they are and there is no way to interpret a set of events any differently -- If somebody does (see things differently), they must be wrong, right?

I disagree.

Consider the Blackstone formulation, "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". Fortunately for the US, the idea of innocent until proven guilty follows along the Blackstone formulation. The truth is decided in a trial - not by some some person immediately saying "I saw him do it, it must be true.", then punishment immediately being administered.

You seem to think that any indication of guilt is guilt and people shouldn't waste their time when it's "that obvious". In this case I think there is little doubt that he is guilty but without putting all the facts together in a formal trial then we'd simply be punishing a man without presenting all the evidence indicating guilt.

Now we play the what-if game. What if the circumstances were slightly different. What if somebody was attacking them in a grocery store and they, in self-defense, felt they had to use their gun to defend themselves. Suppose he missed a few times and killed other people along with his assaulter. Now, in most states this is still a criminal act, but the penalty is less harsh if during trial the defendant can prove he was acting out of self defense. From a witness point of view, one might have only seen the man open-fire, and not realized it was for another reason. Is the truth completely obvious?

Reasonable doubt is the standard of proof for a reason. Proving beyond a reasonable doubt insures, as much as humanly possible, that an innocent person is not punished.

[Slathar]

im from the murder capital where they murder for capital

[Timzilla]

Then I hear Nancy Palosi or some other equally diseased liberal spew some retarded shit about gun control, and I'm relieved to realize that the vast majority of Americas kooks aren't running around with loaded glocks.

[bizzum]

im from the murder capital where they murder for capital

detroit? or as we people who live nearby and pretend we live there call it, d-town.

[purist]

Timzilla sounds fat as hell

[Slathar]

Then I hear Nancy Palosi or some other equally diseased liberal spew some retarded shit about gun control, and I'm relieved to realize that the vast majority of Americas kooks aren't running around with loaded glocks.

go stuff your face fatty mcfatfatgoo

[Harrison]

Timzilla sounds fat as hell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Fatty says whaaaa...?

[Slathar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Fatty says whaaaa...?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yourbestfriendbangedyourgirlfriend

[Harrison]

Really? I was unaware of that situation that passed years ago. Thanks for reminding me! I don't know what I'd do without psychopath teens such as you obsessing over my every utterance on a messageboard!

I owe you one.

[Nuggie]

1st - Pea, i like your bouncing asian chick.
2nd - Both sides have said their peace. Not much else can be said that isn't redundant.

On a side note: Like it or not, we snobish americans are always going to have guns. We will kill each other with them. The world isn't perfect, nor are we. It's just how it is.

[boboo]

Sarah Palin now compares herself to the medieval persecution of jews:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/12/sarah-palin-response-arizona-shooting

[guineapig]

My closest friend can drop three moving targets in one second from holster to third target. He's 60 and has an arsenal. He's never shot anyone but if he had to, you can be sure they'd get the worst of it.

Is this where I am supposed to place comment about the story being cool to my brother? :p

[boboo]

Wow go watch that video of Palin, anyone who doesnt think that Palin is a manipulative phony is fuckin lost in the woods. Teleprompter readin' my god

[guineapig]

Wow go watch that video of Palin, anyone who doesnt think that Palin is a manipulative phony is fuckin lost in the woods. Teleprompter readin' my god

I just threw up a little.

[Timzilla]

Timzilla sounds fat as hell

not as hell.