the server, loot and the way things are

[Duie]

for a better lack of a word is bullshit.

On Tribunal we had a rotation and we had 3 camps . 1 elitist / vagrants, 1 sol invis and one "alliance" which was bascily the smaller guild banding together for planer gear. the three plane were set on a week rotation between these intities. Gods dragons ect were shared by the two top guilds but the smaller guild were given a chance upon request . if the smaller guilds failed to kill said god dragon, they were required to send tell to the respectfull guilds "turn" forsay. It worked and worked well for 4 years.

From where i stand, I see a lot of unnessery compition and all it would take is the leaders to come together out of respect of one another and work something out. Im not gonna sit hear and be foolish tothink dragons /gods will be shared Hoever. wouldnt you guys like to relive an accually planes break? I almost miss those sumbiches shouting "DUIE" and next thing in guild you here is CAMP CAMP!!

[Rhambuk]

The problem with P99 raiding is that Everyone knows what they are doing, Everyone knows the encounters, and Everyone wants to raid.

Legit 1999 eq servers had 2 maybe 3 guilds able to clear gods/dragons at their leisure because there was little competition.

Here we have at least 6, thats just a rough number im not counting guilds im sure there is more than 6, guilds that are ready able willing and wanting to do planes everyday. I don't believe many, if any, raid guilds are willing to wait 6+ weeks on a god/dragon rotation, even with planar trash respawning every 8 hours there simply isn't enough content to satisfy the population.

Kunark will relieve the stress, not that there will be less competition for the highest end content, just more targets to spread around.

[ShivanAngel]

I was in the uber guild on live, and we had ZERO desire to do any sort of rotation...

Why? Because 90% of the time we could mobilize faster and kill the mob before the other guilds had even finished buffing. Why would we agree to split a mob 50/50 when we could have it most of the time anyway.

Pretty sure that mindset has come to this server also... The lower guilds want to do a rotation so they can have a chance at mobs. The top guild dont because they get it most of the time anyway.

[Trimm]

Just off the top of my head, I can think of 12 guilds on this server that have the strength to break and clear Plane of Fear.

[Sinder]

on VZ we had the top guild locking us out of plane of time by killing the Corinav trigger over and over. it was one groupable and then the event would spwn and have a big timer on it. competition was always there. i cant imagine on a bluebie server there was much reason to be on a rotation either though. the reason all the bluebie servers triggered the sleeper was because they wanted to be the only ones with the avatar weapons. similar on pvp servers but RZ like the true pvp server wanted to prove they were better than everyone else, not just on their server, but gamewide :/ competiton is gamewide... part of the immersion experience

[Dach]

Now it's my understanding that Karana was unique among all other servers in that it had a rotation amongst the guilds for all the major targets. This rotation was completely player created and player enforced, and it was beautiful.

My old guild, The Stormbringers, was allied with several other guilds, The Asheborne Alliance, and there were many other alliances, but the really cool part was that there was an alliance of the alliances called the Karana Council of Guilds.

All the major targets, gods and dragons etc, were shared equally among the alliances who agreed to wait their turn in the rotation. The council kept the schedule and everyone abided by it and worked together to enforce it.

Now upstart guilds would from time to time spring up and thumb their nose at the rotation and tell us "You can't tell us what to do" and they were right, we couldn't, but what we could do was blacklist them, and blacklist them we did.

No one would group with them, or buy or trade with them, or even talk to them. They would act all tough and mock us etc. but you know what?

IT WORKED EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL!

The pressure would inevitably get to them and they would cave and either take part in the rotation or just give up and go away.



A rotation is the civilized thing to do and it just may be in the works.


There has been talk amongst the Guild leaders and Guild officers for awhile now about this and everyone is willing to have a rotation pretty much except for one guild who shall go unnamed for now in the hopes of perhaps they just might come around.

We have much to think about and much to discuss.

P.S.
As a side note the upstart guilds were always sociopathic professional grief players and serial trainers and I am not really certain on this but I believe it was one of these groups of shitbags who left Karana when the server split and then went on to be the same group who was the target of the legendary GM who went rogue and summoned and bound these guys at the feet of a dragon putting them in an endless death loop.

Good times, good times.

[poncho]

Now it's my understanding that Karana was unique among all other servers in that it had a rotation amongst the guilds for all the major targets. This rotation was completely player created and player enforced, and it was beautiful.

My old guild, The Stormbringers, was allied with several other guilds, The Asheborne Alliance, and there were many other alliances, but the really cool part was that there was an alliance of the alliances called the Karana Council of Guilds.

All the major targets, gods and dragons etc, were shared equally among the alliances who agreed to wait their turn in the rotation. The council kept the schedule and everyone abided by it and worked together to enforce it.

Now upstart guilds would from time to time spring up and thumb their nose at the rotation and tell us "You can't tell us what to do" and they were right, we couldn't, but what we could do was blacklist them, and blacklist them we did.

No one would group with them, or buy or trade with them, or even talk to them. They would act all tough and mock us etc. but you know what?

IT WORKED EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL!

The pressure would inevitably get to them and they would cave and either take part in the rotation or just give up and go away.



A rotation is the civilized thing to do and it just may be in the works.


There has been talk amongst the Guild leaders and Guild officers for awhile now about this and everyone is willing to have a rotation pretty much except for one guild who shall go unnamed for now in the hopes of perhaps they just might come around.

We have much to think about and much to discuss.

P.S.
As a side note the upstart guilds were always sociopathic professional grief players and serial trainers and I am not really certain on this but I believe it was one of these groups of shitbags who left Karana when the server split and then went on to be the same group who was the target of the legendary GM who went rogue and summoned and bound these guys at the feet of a dragon putting them in an endless death loop.

Good times, good times.

Commies.

[Virtuosos]

A rotation is....just dumb. It defeats the entire purpose of a guild. Why try to be the best guild when, regardless of who you join, you still get to kill gods?? Competition is why raiding is fun, not this hand-holding babysitting type of playing. Go to WoW if you want to be spoon-fed targets, go to any other MMO with instanced targets... Who in their right mind would wait an entire month + for a chance at a God when they can take it down already within minutes of it popping?

IB and DA have had times when they can get 30+ people in under 5 minutes of a batphone, IB dropped draco in 35 minutes (including the breakin to fear) with a full zone pop...DA will engage a dragon within 3 minutes of a spawn...what possible reason would we have to suddenly say "alright well we are taking a 6 week break from vox to let these other guilds have a chance, but we have naggy in 3 weeks so see ya then!" when no one else has demonstrated their desire to compete for these targets for MONTHS?

It causes drama, of course. IB and DA have friction due to racing for targets and getting accidentally trained or mass-starting the DT cycle 50 times or any other numerous amounts of griefing that occur from both sides...but raids are meant to be a clusterfuck, its suppose to be an accomplishment to out-mobilze and out-race other guilds, and when you do kill that god after all the excitement...it actually means something.

Rotation will never work because of this...we had one way back when Trans was still alive and one of the 3 guilds racing for a target, it worked until more people wanted to be added and all of a sudden you wouldnt see a god for a month due to these other guilds wanting a chance. I love helping people, i love being nice and joking with everyone i see...but I also love competition and i know the vast majority of players do too...this would kill it, and i might as well start my own guild up, recruit 15 people, and throw my guilds name in for rotation as well...hell, i could gear up my 15 players within 3 months i bet since i get 4 god kills a month -.-

[Dr4z3r]

A rotation is....just dumb. It defeats the entire purpose of a guild. Why try to be the best guild when, regardless of who you join, you still get to kill gods??

I agree with you for the most part, but stop trying to define fun (not mention other exceedingly nebulous or self-determinate concepts like 'the purpose of guilds') for everyone.

Anytime I see one person spouting off about "the purpose of" something like a guild or what something "is supposed to be" or "is meant to be" in an MMO, I find I put a lot less stock in his or her arguments.

[hedbonker]

The Torv server had rotation on Venril Sathir only. They also had a reservation system for POHate, POFear and POSky. Everything else was FFA. When Velious came out, all of that went by the wayside.

[guineapig]

raids are meant to be a clusterfuck,

Is that so?

[Virtuosos]

When two guilds are racing to aggro a mob first and both guilds place themselves next to the mob, clusterfucks are actually expected to happen.. part of the competition and racing.. ran into it on live all the time


--- and why are you arguing over definitions?? how i defined something in my post no way reflects what i truely believe....i have more fun sitting with a group of noobs than people do when raiding hate for the 20th time.... i think a guild full of people who love to play together would be amazing instead of a guild who played only for gods....

[Randy]

Personally, I don't get the nerd hard-on over getting gear first here since everyone has done the content before. Its not like when it was new and hadn't been defeated before. Then there was a point to race to mobs. I just assumed this server would be more casual and fun, but we all find our own ways to have fun with EQ again and I'm not going to act like what's fun for me has to be fun for everyone else. The community will work it out or crumble.

The way she goes...

[azeth]

I just assumed this server would be more casual and fun

Your rationale is common among a lot of players on P99, but consider the alternate perspective. The words casual and fun will never be used to describe EQ or any other MMO for me.

I don't raid because it just so happens to be what my group of friends are involved in in-game. I raid every single day because it's the only way EQ is fun for me. This perspective is no better or worse, nor more common or uncommon than anyone elses. It does however, moreso than other playstyles, affect what those other players are able to accomplish on P99. I definitely do understand that..

[guineapig]

I raid every single day

Wow man... seriously? On classic only content?

I'm not trying to knock you or anything, I'm just checking to make sure.

[azeth]

Wow man... seriously? On classic only content?

I'm not trying to knock you or anything, I'm just checking to make sure.

Definitely. Barring legit reasons irl.

[Randy]

Your rationale is common among a lot of players on P99, but consider the alternate perspective. The words casual and fun will never be used to describe EQ or any other MMO for me.

Dude, was the rest of my post invisible to you? I basically said to each his own right after that. Do whatever is fun for you. I just thought this server would be a little less serious than live. I was dead wrong about that but that's why people still come back to EQ. Its community is relevant to the game more than newer MMOs and that community decides to share or compete. I am going to have fun either way.

But I think your opinion of raiding all the time is in the majority of the MMO players, hence all new/popular MMOs have instance raiding so everyone can raid all the time.

[Rais]

I must say any server outside of Veeshan, was/is a bunch of pussies! It's just natural progression. It helps guilds become better at raiding, and making things much more time friendly.

If you have to do 3 hours to clear fear to get to Draco? Guess what, the guild who has learned how to mobilize and pull correctly will come in, and get it within 30 mins of being there. How will the other guild who can hardly clear fear in 3 hours ever do this? Learn how to play the game by having the correct classes and numbers before even calling the raid in the first place.

I do have to say, at least on Veeshan the other guilds wouldn't follow in and leach off mobs after the first guild broke the port in area. Unless of course you were Celestial Tomb. It's just a dick move no matter who you are.

It's better just to have some raid leader talk to the other, and figure out what each guild needs and go from there. I assure you theres plenty of rot drops, or classes missing on each guild raid, so it can be shared just by talking to the other guild.

It's amazing how a conversation can start " Hey, I have about 12 people and need stuff for Pally, and Sk. Do you guys need that loot?" and team up with the other guild for a quick fear clear. I assure you, people hate being in fear more than an hour. If it can be done faster, with no cross pulling, trains, pull stealing, I'm pretty sure 90% of all people will be happy.

[azeth]

Dude, was the rest of my post invisible to you?

i wasn't desputin nor refutin, rasputin.

[William_Munny15]

Just off the top of my head, I can think of 12 guilds on this server that have the strength to break and clear Plane of Fear.

Lol yeah right

[Kruel]

Love spending 3+ hours of hardcore killing to clear POF then watching 50 people zone in to try to JACK cazic. Get into a top tier guild and watch those 50 have front row seats to your kill. (true story btw) =D

[Lazortag]

What's the complaint exactly? After the new raid rules were posted and sky opened, this has been the first thread really bitching about the raiding scene for months. Rotation sounds lame as fuck. The current system is at least somewhat meritocratic - if you mobilize faster and have better, more talented players, that will trend towards getting more raid targets to kill. Rotation means that every capable guild gets an equal shot at all targets, which is unfair because not every capable guild is equally skilled.

[feste]

not to side bust this glorious thread but... Randy your avatar picture makes me want to laugh and throw up at the same time lol

[hedbonker]

Love spending 3+ hours of hardcore killing to clear POF then watching 50 people zone in to try to JACK cazic. Get into a top tier guild and watch those 50 have front row seats to your kill. (true story btw) =D

Saw that on live all the time.

[Jon]

This was never a problem on PvP servers hehe.

[Mead]

This was never a problem on PvP servers hehe.

This guy knows what's up.

[Dach]

Greed, selfishness, poopsocking, squabbling and clusterfucks is not the superior system.

Those of us who were on Karana know better.

Getting hundreds of people to cooperate and agree on something is truely a glorious thing to behold.

[Trimm]

Definitely. Barring legit reasons irl.

All that raiding and still no Red Face Paint? Tisk, I could always sell you a few of ours. :)

[Mead]

Greed, selfishness, poopsocking, squabbling and clusterfucks is not the superior system.

Those of us who were on Karana know better.

Getting hundreds of people to cooperate and agree on something is truely a glorious thing to behold.

You're either very naive or just really frustrated if you thought this thread was going to melt hearts and cause teary eyes. Besides the fact that most of the top guilds aren't going to care, there are other factors involved in why this doesn't happen on other servers besides Karana. One of the mains ones, without getting into great detail, is having to deal with people who lack coordination, dedication, and have any sort of awareness to complete a raid, aka noobs. There's a reason the top guilds are on the top, and most of them are from some of the characteristics I mentioned. I'm sure other people mentioned this stuff already.

I'm sorry to say but this thread is going nowhere fast. You can say my attitude is what's wrong with the server blah blah blah. I'm just being realistic. Not to mention this isn't the first time this has been brought up in the history of EQ.

[Acillatem]

So for the past month or so I've been talking to various guilds about a "Calendar Alliance". Vesica Dei, The Mystical Order, Divinity, Blackwater, Darkwind, Bregan D'Aerth, Peace Pipe, Dark Ascension, yes even IB. All guilds capable of doing at the very least planar raids, some minibosses, and some the big boys.

All at the very least "interested" in seeing an alternative to poopsocking. Or an alternative to the constant friction on the server.

I've also spent considerable time doing research online trying to find what made Rotations work/fail in the past. I've looked at probably 10 different systems (including the one used here on P99 back in the day).

The general consensus is this:

Everquest is about general respect for the community as a whole. We are all here playing on P99 becuz for whatever reason it may be, we want to have fun in a game we enjoyed for so many years in the past. Some people have fun doing the batphone mob domination. Some are more casual and just enjoy the social aspect of the game. Some just enjoy flipping items in EC.

Regardless, in order for a Calendar System to work - it needs to be based on 1 simple principle. Respect.

Smaller guilds need to respect the size, ability, and desires of the bigger guilds. And the bigger guilds need to respect the fact that some guilds just simply don't have the time to batphone members at 5am, or have 15 people sitting in Permafrost for days on end, yet still have the ability to do the mob in question.

In order for a calendar system to work properly - it needs to address both sides of the argument. You need to make sure the larger guilds are able to maintain considerable leverage on certain raid targets. You need to make sure the "thrill of the chase" is not removed from the game. And you need to also respect the fact that small and mid-sized guilds would also like to experience some of this content from time to time.

If guilds monopolize the top - they get too big. And then they implode (see Dozekar/Blackwater/Inglorious Basterds). It happened on Live all the time.

You WILL eventually close your doors for recruitment, at which point if people don't have anywhere to go or anything to do, the future for your own guild gets bleaker and bleaker. Suddenly you hafta re-gear every 3 months a new wave of recruits becuz you never gave anyone else the opportunity to do anything. You slow yourself down in the long run.

You cut your own wrists by cutting off everyone else.

I'm working on something that I think will appeal to all sides.

Fact of the matter is - everyone can benefit from a Calendar in one way or another. If you hafta perma camp trackers in every zone, you lose that person for ports/raids.

If you have to constantly squabble in Hate/Fear, it only takes that much longer to gear up members (or back-flag whatever the case may be). Accidental trains, having to work pulls around other guilds, having other guilds pull your mob mid-pull becuz you feign the adds, whatever. It only adds time and effort where there doesn't need to be.

You can have the same 4 guilds fight for Hate 4 nights in a row. Everyone taking that much longer to get shit done becuz you hafta work around other guilds. Or you can each have 1 night to yourself. It's more efficient. It just makes sense.

Like I said tho - the problem with rotations in the past is too often, EVERY mob is put on a SET rotation. (ie Guild A does Vox, then becuz there are 9 other guilds in line hafta wait 2 months for another Vox raid). That's not FAIR for the big guns.

I've got an idea (or rather I should say a combination of other peoples ideas) that I think, at the very least, is worth consideration.

I've been gathering email addresses of officers/guildleaders and should shoot out a rough draft within a week or so (holidays). But like I said - we are all here to have fun. And nobody is asking for Rusty Long Swords to have the same amount of Vox kills as IB or DA over the course of a month. But some moderation would do the server good.

It would cut down on the poopsocking.
It would cut down on GM /petitions.
It would cut down on general pettiness over the stupidest shit.
It would free up MORE time to do things your guild wants to do.

Big or small, this game has alwayz been about Risk vs Reward. It's also been about Time in versus Reward out. But there is a flaw in the system when no matter how much time people put in, there is no reward.

It's up to us, the community, to have the foresight to at least CONSIDER an option, when presented, that can benefit the server.

[Dach]

You're either very naive or just really frustrated if you thought this thread was going to melt hearts and cause teary eyes. Besides the fact that most of the top guilds aren't going to care, there are other factors involved in why this doesn't happen on other servers besides Karana. One of the mains ones, without getting into great detail, is having to deal with people who lack coordination, dedication, and have any sort of awareness to complete a raid, aka noobs. There's a reason the top guilds are on the top, and most of them are from some of the characteristics I mentioned. I'm sure other people mentioned this stuff already.

I'm sorry to say but this thread is going nowhere fast. You can say my attitude is what's wrong with the server blah blah blah. I'm just being realistic. Not to mention this isn't the first time this has been brought up in the history of EQ.




Phhhttt, nonsense. I know a rotation can work because I have seen it done with my own eyes.

I was there. I experienced it. It rocked.

What we have now is 3rd world warlords and anachy while Karana was the United States of servers.

Somolia VS America.

Who wins that war?

I think I'm the one being realistic.

[Mead]

Phhhttt, nonsense. I know a rotation can work because I have seen it done with my own eyes.

I was there. I experienced it. It rocked.

What we have now is 3rd world warlords and anachy while Karana was the United States of servers.

Somolia VS America.

Who wins that war?

I think I'm the one being realistic.

I guess you missed the part where I said besides Karana and the thread where I stated I used to play on Karana. I never once disputed it could or couldn't work.

[Dach]

So for the past month or so I've been talking to various guilds about a "Calendar Alliance". Vesica Dei, The Mystical Order, Divinity, Blackwater, Darkwind, Bregan D'Aerth, Peace Pipe, Dark Ascension, yes even IB. All guilds capable of doing at the very least planar raids, some minibosses, and some the big boys.

All at the very least "interested" in seeing an alternative to poopsocking. Or an alternative to the constant friction on the server.

I've also spent considerable time doing research online trying to find what made Rotations work/fail in the past. I've looked at probably 10 different systems (including the one used here on P99 back in the day).

The general consensus is this:

Everquest is about general respect for the community as a whole. We are all here playing on P99 becuz for whatever reason it may be, we want to have fun in a game we enjoyed for so many years in the past. Some people have fun doing the batphone mob domination. Some are more casual and just enjoy the social aspect of the game. Some just enjoy flipping items in EC.

Regardless, in order for a Calendar System to work - it needs to be based on 1 simple principle. Respect.

Smaller guilds need to respect the size, ability, and desires of the bigger guilds. And the bigger guilds need to respect the fact that some guilds just simply don't have the time to batphone members at 5am, or have 15 people sitting in Permafrost for days on end, yet still have the ability to do the mob in question.

In order for a calendar system to work properly - it needs to address both sides of the argument. You need to make sure the larger guilds are able to maintain considerable leverage on certain raid targets. You need to make sure the "thrill of the chase" is not removed from the game. And you need to also respect the fact that small and mid-sized guilds would also like to experience some of this content from time to time.

If guilds monopolize the top - they get too big. And then they implode (see Dozekar/Blackwater/Inglorious Basterds). It happened on Live all the time.

You WILL eventually close your doors for recruitment, at which point if people don't have anywhere to go or anything to do, the future for your own guild gets bleaker and bleaker. Suddenly you hafta re-gear every 3 months a new wave of recruits becuz you never gave anyone else the opportunity to do anything. You slow yourself down in the long run.

You cut your own wrists by cutting off everyone else.

I'm working on something that I think will appeal to all sides.

Fact of the matter is - everyone can benefit from a Calendar in one way or another. If you hafta perma camp trackers in every zone, you lose that person for ports/raids.

If you have to constantly squabble in Hate/Fear, it only takes that much longer to gear up members (or back-flag whatever the case may be). Accidental trains, having to work pulls around other guilds, having other guilds pull your mob mid-pull becuz you feign the adds, whatever. It only adds time and effort where there doesn't need to be.

You can have the same 4 guilds fight for Hate 4 nights in a row. Everyone taking that much longer to get shit done becuz you hafta work around other guilds. Or you can each have 1 night to yourself. It's more efficient. It just makes sense.

Like I said tho - the problem with rotations in the past is too often, EVERY mob is put on a SET rotation. (ie Guild A does Vox, then becuz there are 9 other guilds in line hafta wait 2 months for another Vox raid). That's not FAIR for the big guns.

I've got an idea (or rather I should say a combination of other peoples ideas) that I think, at the very least, is worth consideration.

I've been gathering email addresses of officers/guildleaders and should shoot out a rough draft within a week or so (holidays). But like I said - we are all here to have fun. And nobody is asking for Rusty Long Swords to have the same amount of Vox kills as IB or DA over the course of a month. But some moderation would do the server good.

It would cut down on the poopsocking.
It would cut down on GM /petitions.
It would cut down on general pettiness over the stupidest shit.
It would free up MORE time to do things your guild wants to do.

Big or small, this game has alwayz been about Risk vs Reward. It's also been about Time in versus Reward out. But there is a flaw in the system when no matter how much time people put in, there is no reward.

It's up to us, the community, to have the foresight to at least CONSIDER an option, when presented, that can benefit the server.

You da man!

[Dach]

I guess you missed the part where I said besides Karana and the thread where I stated I used to play on Karana. I never once disputed it could or couldn't work.

I just didn't like you saying I was either naive or frustrated when I am neither but am instead just relating my firsthand experience.

Glad to see other Karana folks here.

[Curmudgen]

I Remember Rathe having calendar and scheduling. As I remember it things were very smooth.

[Trax]

This is America, we don't believe in your Communist ways. Race for spawns, or get the fuck out of the way.


This game might be more for you, follow my link here (http://us.battle.net/en/int?r=wow)

[Trimm]

Classy response from such an upstanding poster on these forums.

[Sinder]

you obviously don't know much about america if you are comparing it to a peaceful rotation server lol. maybe I'm to Randian at times but i don't think anyone argues with the idea that you are entitled to what you've earned... for the vast majority though it take having that which you've earned torn away from you to realize the true travesty that you are trying to pursue.

A better question to debate for the server would be what is our highest pursuit. if its a power then certainly the batphone, mobilizing, dedicated, blah blah is the best route as competition needs an environment for it to exist. if its a casual 1 hour here 2 hours there then certainly knowing when to log on so you can be guaranteed to enjoy that raid you scheduled in advance would be the best system.

unfortunately this is a pretty moot debate because neither of these are the reason for this server. the reason for this server is to be as classic as possible. and since your trying to sell a gamewide population on a finite % of the populations experience it kinda nullifies the debate. This debate however is exactly why the developers went to an instanced zoning for most all raid encounters. course thats not until they sold out to the mcdonalds of the gaming world.

[Ponden]

What would happen is this:

Said guilds make an agreement to "rotate mobs" in a meeting. Mob_A spawns and a guild that didn't agree mobilizes faster and takes it down. That guild is listed as "pricks" for doing that. Mob_B spawns and the "allowed guild" wipes, another guild sitting behind snipes the kill. They are labeled as "pricks" for doing that.

I mean, lets be real, this will never happen without strict enforcement. There was already one "open raid" last weekend that started ranting and getting upset because IB wanted to keep Hate cleared that weekend.

[Butcher]

I used to love having the guild MOTD pop up and say GET TO SOANDSO ZONE...WE ARE RACING (guildname here). JUst the rush you get from having every one ready to get to the target was a blast. And yes it does suck if you lose but thats life..deal with it.

[Shiftin]

Love spending 3+ hours of hardcore killing to clear POF then watching 50 people zone in to try to JACK cazic. Get into a top tier guild and watch those 50 have front row seats to your kill. (true story btw) =D

You're telling me you were in fear for 3 hours while cazic was up and no other guild showed interest until you had it cleared?

Yeah.... I call.

[Mead]

What would happen is this:

Said guilds make an agreement to "rotate mobs" in a meeting. Mob_A spawns and a guild that didn't agree mobilizes faster and takes it down. That guild is listed as "pricks" for doing that. Mob_B spawns and the "allowed guild" wipes, another guild sitting behind snipes the kill. They are labeled as "pricks" for doing that.

I mean, lets be real, this will never happen without strict enforcement. There was already one "open raid" last weekend that started ranting and getting upset because IB wanted to keep Hate cleared that weekend.

The best part about it is the hypocrisy that goes along with this. They're doing this in the name of equality and fairness, but are going to force or blacklist guilds that don't want to participate in what they believe to be fair. :rolleyes:

[Heebee]

P.S.
As a side note the upstart guilds were always sociopathic professional grief players and serial trainers and I am not really certain on this but I believe it was one of these groups of shitbags who left Karana when the server split and then went on to be the same group who was the target of the legendary GM who went rogue and summoned and bound these guys at the feet of a dragon putting them in an endless death loop.

Actually the GM who went rogue on Terris-Thule summoned anyone who was level 60 and online at the time regardless of the guild they were in. There was little or no raid related drama on that server at that time either. Nor am I aware of any group of sociopathic professional grief players and serial trainers existing on Terris-Thule - it was actually quite civil, raiding disputes were rare, the need for GM intervention was even rarer.

P.S.
I was one of those summoned into VP and I was never on Karana.

[Dach]

Actually the GM who went rogue on Terris-Thule summoned anyone who was level 60 and online at the time regardless of the guild they were in. There was little or no raid related drama on that server at that time either. Nor am I aware of any group of sociopathic professional grief players and serial trainers existing on Terris-Thule - it was actually quite civil, raiding disputes were rare, the need for GM intervention was even rarer.

P.S.
I was one of those summoned into VP and I was never on Karana.

I stand corrected.

[Taluvill]

Two things to say:

First, there is enough of a hardcore population here that a rotation would probably net more loss than you would gain in amount of players on this server. Or you would have people down GM throats 24/7 (See: Inglorious Basterds, Pre-Plane of Hate release. See Divinity, Pre Plane of hate release.) <---[Edit] Probably not as much divinity, but the rotation included PoFear gear clearing, and they wanted theirs, and broke into fear just before the hate release. It also wasn't a secret that they were looking to raid. Point is, its not easy on the gm's for a rotation because without a concrete way to get in, and without anyone to police that concrete way of getting in, you hold other guilds out. Why join <new guild A> when Ib, Divinity, and DA are eating up the planes and no one else can get in?

Edit2: If its not GM enforced, there will be no order, especially when Velious releases, or when new keys for VP are acquired. And the GM's want nothing to do with policing our raiding system atm.

Second: Wait for kunark, content will open up. Trust me. two or even three guilds cannot be at the same pl;aces at once while trying to level and cockblock the other guilds out of gear to keep them down. Targets, not just old world bosses, will free up. Just position yourselves in good spots, and your gtg.

Third: didn't think there would be a third, but if you really want a shot at bosses, plana few nights a week for people to be available, and just watch the trackers. Chances are, if there is a tracker in zone, a mob is imminent or semi-imminent. Put your raid force their and be available for a few hours. Then it's best of luck to you and your skilled players.

Edit3: there really isnt any poopsocking going on, just guilds that can kill shit and they arew killing it, and a small tracking force that helps and rotates in. Fun gear clears when spots to clear are available.

[Zereh]

P.S. I was one of those summoned into VP and I was never on Karana.

Your evilness is legendary ~ :p


Oh, and Virtuosos, I am pretty sure I <3 you. Your posts are always spot-on.

[Dach]

Any rotation if it somehow materialized would have to be player enforced in order to remain classic.

The nonsense that occurred during the server reset debacle last week demonstrates the need for a rotation. All would benefit.

[Bushwick]

Any rotation if it somehow materialized would have to be player enforced in order to remain classic.

The nonsense that occurred during the server reset debacle last week demonstrates the need for a rotation. All would benefit.

While I'm amenable to the idea of a rotation, let's be honest and admit the only players who would benefit in any great way are those who aren't in the guilds currently netting these kills. Two guilds had a great time on that day, it was the others who were shut out.

[Alexzia]

My live server, Prexus, also had a rotation system. It was used from Classic through the start of Velious (only Dain was rotated). Although clearly rotation systems have benefits, my first-hand experience playing on a server with a rotation leads me to believe the drawbacks outweigh the advantages. Many of these drawbacks have not be recognized so far in this thread. Rotation systems lead to slower progression, to waste, and although have the veneer of altruism, actually prevent guilds anywhere but the bleeding edge of the curve from ever catching up.

On Prexus, dozens of guilds rotated the planes. There were so many "planes capable" guilds that many of us were lucky to see a planar run more that a couple times a month, and that was including double-dipping the calendar with friendly guilds (a common practice). Although I will admit that the RNG hated my guts, by I finally got my ranger his TV BP during Velious. Yes, Velious. That was from raiding the planes at every opportunity the calendar would allow me during the Kunark period.

Waste was terrible as well. I put "planes capable" in quotations earlier as, although many of these guilds were capable of clearing a plane, it often took them over five hours. (This is after the level cap was raised to 60 as well!) In other words, if you were unlucky enough to follow a slow clear guild, you were in there for five or six hours even if your normal clear was an hour or two. The result was that the powers that be chose to divide a planar day into two twelve hour blocks instead of three eight hour blocks. Not only to prevent the wait, but to give people the experience of a full break. But in the end, a full spawn was wasted every day, ironically in the name of giving people more opportunity.

It gets even worse when key mobs are involved. This is how it generally goes, by the time the second tier raiding crews are ready to step up to, say Trak, the first tier crews are already keyed. More people get let in on the rotation. During that period of Kunark, I was in an alliance with a guild that was the 4th to kill Trak on the server. After consulting a calculator, we found it would have taken us roughly four to six months to key our core crew for VP. Realistically, it would have been longer, as a few months down the line, the rotation got even longer. Towards the end of the lifespan of the calendar, a guild joining the Trak rotation would require of a year and a half of waiting in line to key up a reasonable raiding force. Although perhaps this is fair, this sort of time frame is not reasonable.

In the meantime, the top tier guilds can farm VP virtually uncontested, while the teir below trying to step up is prevented from progressing by the system. This creates a cycle in which the gap between the top and the mid gets larger. The more casual raiders are just happy seeing Trak and praise the fairness of the top guilds, where as in reality, the top guilds are merely guaranteeing that the mid tier can never catch up in gear.

Not only that, but the top guild(s) can leisurely kill old, rotated content that they really only farm for guild bank gear only after they kill their priority targets. This benefits the top tier more than the middle tier. It helps the top tier's guild bank at the expense of the middle tier's progression.

So yes, although rotation systems help the most casual of the player base see some content every now and then, they also serve as an effective tool for keeping the "hardcasual" crew from ever advancing. Rotation also result in a larger stratification between the raiding guilds. In simple words, the gap between the haves and have nots becomes even wider. As a direct result guild poaching and feeder guilds become a much larger problem/reality.

Having had the misfortune of raiding under such as system of constraints in the past, I was happy then when the calendar was abolished on my live server, and I am happy now that P1999 does not have one.

[TJHooker]

Phhhttt, nonsense. I know a rotation can work because I have seen it done with my own eyes.

I was there. I experienced it. It rocked.

What we have now is 3rd world warlords and anachy while Karana was the United States of servers.

Somolia VS America.

Who wins that war?

I think I'm the one being realistic.

Go watch Black Hawk Down, Somalia takes it.

[Mega]

Would like to see instancing here in parallel with regular zones.
Then the clusterfuckers get to have their fun and the rest can too.

[t0lkien]

Would like to see instancing here in parallel with regular zones.
Then the clusterfuckers get to have their fun and the rest can too.

Thankfully it's EQ = no instances :cool:

[guineapig]

And yes it does suck if you lose but thats life..deal with it.


Not life... a game... :)

[Gwence]

yaaaaaa

Keep padding that post count!

[Dach]

Go watch Black Hawk Down, Somalia takes it.

Compare body counts and get back to me.

[Dach]

My live server, Prexus, also had a rotation system. It was used from Classic through the start of Velious (only Dain was rotated). Although clearly rotation systems have benefits, my first-hand experience playing on a server with a rotation leads me to believe the drawbacks outweigh the advantages. Many of these drawbacks have not be recognized so far in this thread. Rotation systems lead to slower progression, to waste, and although have the veneer of altruism, actually prevent guilds anywhere but the bleeding edge of the curve from ever catching up.

On Prexus, dozens of guilds rotated the planes. There were so many "planes capable" guilds that many of us were lucky to see a planar run more that a couple times a month, and that was including double-dipping the calendar with friendly guilds (a common practice). Although I will admit that the RNG hated my guts, by I finally got my ranger his TV BP during Velious. Yes, Velious. That was from raiding the planes at every opportunity the calendar would allow me during the Kunark period.

Waste was terrible as well. I put "planes capable" in quotations earlier as, although many of these guilds were capable of clearing a plane, it often took them over five hours. (This is after the level cap was raised to 60 as well!) In other words, if you were unlucky enough to follow a slow clear guild, you were in there for five or six hours even if your normal clear was an hour or two. The result was that the powers that be chose to divide a planar day into two twelve hour blocks instead of three eight hour blocks. Not only to prevent the wait, but to give people the experience of a full break. But in the end, a full spawn was wasted every day, ironically in the name of giving people more opportunity.

It gets even worse when key mobs are involved. This is how it generally goes, by the time the second tier raiding crews are ready to step up to, say Trak, the first tier crews are already keyed. More people get let in on the rotation. During that period of Kunark, I was in an alliance with a guild that was the 4th to kill Trak on the server. After consulting a calculator, we found it would have taken us roughly four to six months to key our core crew for VP. Realistically, it would have been longer, as a few months down the line, the rotation got even longer. Towards the end of the lifespan of the calendar, a guild joining the Trak rotation would require of a year and a half of waiting in line to key up a reasonable raiding force. Although perhaps this is fair, this sort of time frame is not reasonable.

In the meantime, the top tier guilds can farm VP virtually uncontested, while the teir below trying to step up is prevented from progressing by the system. This creates a cycle in which the gap between the top and the mid gets larger. The more casual raiders are just happy seeing Trak and praise the fairness of the top guilds, where as in reality, the top guilds are merely guaranteeing that the mid tier can never catch up in gear.

Not only that, but the top guild(s) can leisurely kill old, rotated content that they really only farm for guild bank gear only after they kill their priority targets. This benefits the top tier more than the middle tier. It helps the top tier's guild bank at the expense of the middle tier's progression.

So yes, although rotation systems help the most casual of the player base see some content every now and then, they also serve as an effective tool for keeping the "hardcasual" crew from ever advancing. Rotation also result in a larger stratification between the raiding guilds. In simple words, the gap between the haves and have nots becomes even wider. As a direct result guild poaching and feeder guilds become a much larger problem/reality.

Having had the misfortune of raiding under such as system of constraints in the past, I was happy then when the calendar was abolished on my live server, and I am happy now that P1999 does not have one.

These issues are easily addressed and in fact were on Karana.

Guilds taking that long to clear planes ruin it for the next group and would ally with other guilds of the same caliber.

[Skope]

Gwence complaining? Worthless post? WHAAAAAA?!?!

I was on Prexus as well, and rotations can be a major pita, especially if you take into account the mere number of guilds that would want a fair share -- which is exactly the scenario here. Come kunark it will ease up and if you want a target you can certainly get it if you plan ahead. Also, come kunark you won't see these 40-60 raid forces because the high end stuff requires keys, tiered gear and still has only 32khp. Guilds who amass numbers, always open to recruit and zerg will ultimately have another implosion unless they decide to trim the added weight. Nobody in their right mind will want to sit on the bench for months until they decide to open up keying to the people not considered the "core." Keying to VP/trak/epic business was always a big issue with the bigger guilds and would almost always cause massive internal issues. Far easier to engage trak with the first 30 then it is to wait for the other 20-30 still making their way.

I have grown to dislike the variance, though. Twice have we seen exploits that were used to find the spawn timers and sit your guild there beforehand (once it was rumored and the other time members from guild(s) were banned yet... yea, well i'm not gonna go there but i suppose you can fill in the rest). I've been tracking in zones where I've seen a necro FD at fear portal (full pop) waiting for draco to spawn. How would they know? I've seen pallies/warriors/wizards sitting in zones where mobs were in timer apparently afk and were the only members of their guild in the zone. The upper end guilds know exactly how/what's being done and who is doing it. We also know that if someone is believed to be using that it also provides motivation for others to use it, despite being against the rules. If they can do it and get away with it why can't I? It's not healthy, and if there will be no p99-downloaded program to run alongside our version of EQ there's also no certain way to find it.

Dump the variance and I assure you people will start to play nice or get the ban hammer. If they don't then they'll learn quickly that they dislike having to sit out week-long bans because of failure to cooperate.

[Curmudgen]

I started on The Rathe just after Velious opened. The calendar had been in place since Kunark. So whatever argument you make about scheduling, you can't say it "isn't classic" period. On several servers it was.

Do you want to approach the game as a juvenile non-mature mindset, or as an ordered and thoughtful approach. Most of these comments I read I can envision coming from young folks. Cooperation is not communist, or socialist, it is effective and actually the adult American way.

I love the server here ( I can hear allready the love it or leave it posts) but personally think the calendar is a wonderful idea as it ws on the rathe.

[Dach]

The guilds that cannot take down a god or dragon would have to ally with other guilds in order to do so which dramatically reduces the numbers in a rotation making plenty of raid opportunities for all.

Someone needs to crunch the numbers of:

How many targets there are

How often they spawn

How many alliances would be in the rotation

How many raid opportunities per week that would leave each alliance or uber guild.

[Skope]

The guilds that cannot take down a god or dragon would have to ally with other guilds in order to do so which dramatically reduces the numbers in a rotation making plenty of raid opportunities for all.

Someone needs to crunch the numbers of:

How many targets there are

How often they spawn

How many alliances would be in the rotation

How many raid opportunities per week that would leave each alliance or uber guild.

It doesnt take much to down a god or dragon. we've taken draco with 11? need ~15 to break the plane.

Inny can be killed with ~20. We've done it with 22 and it was pretty easy.

CT may require a bit more, but if there's 0 competition then he's no harder than inny (in fact probably easier).

Naggy and vox both are no harder than the gods.

Maestro can probably be duo'd.

The gods/dragons spawn every 7 +/- 48, maestro/draco spawn every 3 days +/- 24.

Any guild that can muster up 25 people can kill any god/dragon/mini with the proper strategy.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Any guild that can muster up 25 people can kill any god/dragon/mini with the proper number of malachites.

FIFY.

tee hee! :) JK!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Grod]

If guilds monopolize the top - they get too big. And then they implode (see Dozekar/Blackwater/Inglorious Basterds). It happened on Live all the time.

You WILL eventually close your doors for recruitment, at which point if people don't have anywhere to go or anything to do, the future for your own guild gets bleaker and bleaker. Suddenly you hafta re-gear every 3 months a new wave of recruits becuz you never gave anyone else the opportunity to do anything. You slow yourself down in the long run.

You cut your own wrists by cutting off everyone else.

I don't know anything about the raiding structure on this server because I haven't raided on here yet (will be looking for a raiding guild soon :) ) but I was in one of the guilds "monopolizing" the top on live and just wanted to point out a few things from the other side on this. First off, the majority of guild implosions were internal issues and had nothing to do with guild progression in top tier guilds. Your implying that these guilds imploded because of their dominant status on the server which is definitely not the case as there are a lot of those original guilds that stayed together and still play together in other games.

Secondly, recruitment is almost never an issue because as the top guild you get your pick of the server for the most part(even cross-server in some games and in later Everquest expansions). When guilds close off recruitment it's because they don't need anybody else at that time but most guilds never fully cut off recruitment and the doors are open for exceptional applicants. Furthermore, the few people that do join are either 1) already geared or 2) they gear up pretty quickly because the majority of people who have been farming the content already have the common / lesser drops. It was actually a running joke in our guild because would join us and get decked out in the best gear in their first 1-2 months of joining because they are getting all the items that normally rot. It never slowed us down because 1) new recruits were never playing any important roles on raids and they were getting geared up really quickly anyway and 2) recruitment was always available. You'd be surprised how many people from the 2nd and 3rd best guilds on the server would quickly jump ship given the opportunity.

Basically, monopolizing the loot is not a "bad thing" for guilds (regarding that top guild's future progression) and even moreso, just to point out, if you look at the guilds who were competing for world firsts back in original EQ none of them were coming from loot rotation servers so the argument that it actually hinders the guild is nonsense because it doesn't in any way.

Some people play Everquest for the community and working towards a common goal is a big deal but you also have to understand that some people play for the competition it provides, and some people like being able to be the best and control their fate. Some guilds killed content they didn't need the loot from simply so the other guilds couldn't get the loot and their guild would be in a better position to maintain their top guild status on new content. That was planned and done intentionally by many guilds.

I definitely care more about the community this time around as opposed to how I played on live but I do understand why guilds would be opposed to a loot rotation and I'd rather not be a part of one because it takes a lot of competition off of the server.

[Taluvill]

What I think a lot of you Pro-Rotation people seem to think is that a lot of people want to share their pie with everyone.

I would imagine, if there was a rotation with IB/Div/DA, there would be some good favor to it. This solution also puts every guild under them at a reduced class and makes them feeder guilds for the "Big 3" and ruins the fun for anyone not in those guilds/potential new guilds.

If you force the big three to share with say, 8 guilds, which I can EASILY see happening with a widespread rotation, why would any of these 3 agree to it? they can all get raid mobs when they feel like it and get more than 1 every two weeks. They could have 3-5 every week, potentially. They won't agree to it, and it's as others have said, big guilds will be cockblocking, for lack of a better term, old type content to gear up newer members, pad their guild bank, and bring new recruits up to gear(ish) the moment they join and earn their favor.

A rotation, as much as you want it, will not work on the sole fact that there are too many people who have done this, and too many people that would jump at the chance to monopolize the server and raid frequently.

[t0lkien]

The only content mess I ever really experienced was Velious/Luclin. Even though I hated the dirty play and brutish tactics of so many of the guilds, nothing - and I mean nothing - has ever matched the exhilaration of mobilizing an entire guild, prepping on the run, and hitting a target before other guilds could do so. No other game has ever created that sort of tension and excitement for me. A server rotation does away with that.

You have to take the good with the bad. And that sort of good only comes when there's the possibility of bad behaviour. It's worth putting up with the crap just to keep that sort of dynamic IMO i.e. server rotations create less fun, not more.

[Skope]

A rotation, as much as you want it, will not work on the sole fact that there are too many people who have done this, and too many people that would jump at the chance to monopolize the server and raid frequently.

I think that's probably the main reason why rotation just wouldn't work. Generally rotations are set in place early during an expansion/creation when there are only but a couple guilds who can down said targets. A few months down the line you start to get other guilds trying to flex their muscles and make a name for themselves. Right now we have many guilds who can down gods/dragons and perhaps too many for a rotation unless it is very limited towards the "bottom" guilds. I do agree that perhaps it's not the right time to enact a rotation, but the I honestly can't think of a single reason why we still have variance. variance was put in place to stop people from poopsocking (and it still didn't work) and for some reason it's still here. Dump the variance and if guild A wants to tangle with the big boys then get in there and buff up =P

[Noser]

I would rather see some spawn tweakage solutions. For example, randomly resetting all the bosses one day a week like what happened a week or two ago. Sure it's not classic but either is spawn variance. All i'm sayin' is that we should start thinkin' outside the bun here folks!

[Wrei]

Two things to say:

First, there is enough of a hardcore population here that a rotation would probably net more loss than you would gain in amount of players on this server. Or you would have people down GM throats 24/7 (See: Inglorious Basterds, Pre-Plane of Hate release. See Divinity, Pre Plane of hate release.) <---[Edit] Probably not as much divinity, but the rotation included PoFear gear clearing, and they wanted theirs, and broke into fear just before the hate release. It also wasn't a secret that they were looking to raid. Point is, its not easy on the gm's for a rotation because without a concrete way to get in, and without anyone to police that concrete way of getting in, you hold other guilds out. Why join <new guild A> when Ib, Divinity, and DA are eating up the planes and no one else can get in?

Edit2: If its not GM enforced, there will be no order, especially when Velious releases, or when new keys for VP are acquired. And the GM's want nothing to do with policing our raiding system atm.

Second: Wait for kunark, content will open up. Trust me. two or even three guilds cannot be at the same pl;aces at once while trying to level and cockblock the other guilds out of gear to keep them down. Targets, not just old world bosses, will free up. Just position yourselves in good spots, and your gtg.

Third: didn't think there would be a third, but if you really want a shot at bosses, plana few nights a week for people to be available, and just watch the trackers. Chances are, if there is a tracker in zone, a mob is imminent or semi-imminent. Put your raid force their and be available for a few hours. Then it's best of luck to you and your skilled players.

Edit3: there really isnt any poopsocking going on, just guilds that can kill shit and they arew killing it, and a small tracking force that helps and rotates in. Fun gear clears when spots to clear are available.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with all your points Taluvil... this is monumental. Eq was never a "fair" game. Sure, you may have had a cute rotation on Karana but you had a Darwinian evolution on all other servers for the most part. Everyone has a different playtime, we all attach different level of importance towards the raiding aspect of this game. If you want a casual guild to get equal share, why not push for instancing the bosses? Seriously. That's how MMO evolved atm with instancing. The argument of casual gamers deserving a shot at end game content at their own pace is what created instancing.

I enjoy raiding because of the competition, I like the race, I like putting something on the line (if we fuck up they get the kill). I also like not wasting my time with people who don't understand that their action causes other people to waste their time. I don't want to tell people how to play. If you have fun fucking around for 9 hours clearing a plane then go for it. I personally would like to do it as fast as possible because really I got better shit to do in RL. People are not only lazy they are also greedy. Rotation is not practical to implement. Guilds will be splitting up to form mini guilds your 10 guild list will soon evolve to 20, then to 30. So what on a 7 day mob you'll need to wait 210 days to get a 2nd shot at the same boss eventually? So instead of pushing for everyone to be miserable (hardcore and casual) if you're serious about keeping it "fair" then the way to go is for every guild to have their own boss whenever they want and NOT about rotating.

Problem with that is it isn't classic EQ, the GM's have made it more than clear that they aren't interested in policing or implementing anything like that. So instead of arguing about what's rightfully yours, why not focus all that energy towards something more productive. Either join a raiding guild that will allow you to experience such content or make a guild to get you there. No one is preventing you to kill Vox or Naggy, the rules are first to engage. Find other people to mobilize and compete or join a guild that's doing so atm. When Kunark comes out, older content will free up and competition will become less of an issue. Between farming the 9839829 items in kunark, finishing your epic, outdoor bosses + end game content etc.. There's plenty of things to do even before the old world bosses.

[Ponden]

If guilds monopolize the top - they get too big. And then they implode (see Dozekar/Blackwater/Inglorious Basterds). It happened on Live all the time.

False information leads to posts like this. Nobody wants a rotation aside from small guilds that can't mobilize fast enough for big targets or have the discipline to do things like that.

[Dach]

Nobody wants a rotation aside from small guilds that can't mobilize fast enough for big targets or have the discipline to do things like that.

It is my understanding that several guild leaders of big guilds are interested in rotating some targets.

You don't presume to speak for them, do you Sir?









.

[Ponden]

Which leaders? The ones that aren't getting the 5 big targets? I won't speak for DA, but I doubt they would give targets to smaller guilds.

[Dach]

Which leaders? The ones that aren't getting the 5 big targets? I won't speak for DA, but I doubt they would give targets to smaller guilds.

Originally Posted by Acillatem
So for the past month or so I've been talking to various guilds about a "Calendar Alliance". Vesica Dei, The Mystical Order, Divinity, Blackwater, Darkwind, Bregan D'Aerth, Peace Pipe, Dark Ascension, yes even IB. All guilds capable of doing at the very least planar raids, some minibosses, and some the big boys.

All at the very least "interested" in seeing an alternative to poopsocking. Or an alternative to the constant friction on the server.

[Ponden]

Lol. Easy snipes. Also, the only friction I ever see is between DA and IB. I don't think I've ever been contested with Divinity or Darkwind for any mobs. We generally are never in the same zone together. And it is funny you say that about IB, because I don't think we would give a single target to anyone that can't mobilize and out-pull us. DA gets some, we get some. At least they put up a competitive nature.

[Kassel]

There is more friction, like that one unamed guild who sits out side the fear portal until others zone in and break it then they decide its a good idea to waltz in, not that a fear break is hard, but come on thats just weak.

Perhaps you also recall that one day were there was 101 people in fear with no gods up. Shit be crowded!! We need kunark !

[Ponden]

If you have to wait for another guild to break fear, you shouldn't be there.

[Kassel]

If you have to wait for another guild to break fear, you shouldn't be there.

I AGREE !!

But thats now how things work on this server.

[Ponden]

Right, and the guilds who rely on another guild to break in rarely, if ever, will get a Draco or CT kill. That is a fact.

[Taluvill]

If you have to wait for another guild to break fear, you shouldn't be there.

This pretty much sums up this thread lol.

And its nice to see the top guilds actually agreeing on something.

[Abacab niggah]

Lol. Easy snipes. Also, the only friction I ever see is between DA and IB. I don't think I've ever been contested with Divinity or Darkwind for any mobs. We generally are never in the same zone together. And it is funny you say that about IB, because I don't think we would give a single target to anyone that can't mobilize and out-pull us. DA gets some, we get some. At least they put up a competitive nature.

That is a stupid statement about DA/IB...

If you don't give a target, I'm going to train you. Period. Because I go by the mentality of if my guild can't have this encounter no one is going to have it. Seeing as none of you subscribe to malicious behavior in a raid zone in order to obtain a target you're going to ride the petition system to get this accomplished.

I remember not-so-long ago, Reign was clearing fear for Draco and I bugged the mobs pathing out so they would have to spend another hour clearing mobs and re-adjusting themselves for the pull. I then aggro'd the ammy temple by tagging the fire ring and running back to Reign's pull spot and wiping the entire guild.

At that point in time I could've easily zerged in a guild and have had them take draco while everyone else was frantically trying to get rezzed by the one cleric they managed to camp out. In essence I out-competed Reign by wiping their presence from the zone with a single level 46 druid.

So it's stupid to say that because you "mobilize" faster you deserve the mobs, I train harder and I am more malicious so I can get the mobs if GM's wouldn't throw banhammers for that behavior.

[YendorLootmonkey]

At that point in time I could've easily zerged in a guild and have had them take draco while everyone else was frantically trying to get rezzed by the one cleric they managed to camp out. In essence I out-competed Reign by wiping their presence from the zone with a single level 46 druid.

Awww, kind of like a fucked-up Robin Hood. :)

[Abacab niggah]

Awww, kind of like a fucked-up Robin Hood. :)

Nah, people forget that strong arming bullshit only works if smaller guilds allow themselves to be subservient. Larger guilds only dominate the content on this server because of two factors:


Large guilds have the ability to set multiple people in set zones for hours at a time making it 10x easier to phone 20 or so people and have them pop up at the target in 5 minutes
Large guilds tend to be rule nazi; religiously spouting off server rules as it benefits them, and are quick to dick rub authorities if something doesn't go their way


As a smaller guild they try to scare you into "if you make a move on us we'll have you banned" as the larger guild continually juggernauts their way through encounters using exploits and rule of fear on their competition.

One thing though, larger guilds are 15x easier to train than a smaller guild, they're a gigantic target that bounces aggro off itself every fraction of a second. Catching them off guard with several mobs is a guaranteed wipe and a 1 hr CR as they try to rez their zerg force back into operation

[Ponden]

I really do hope that the smaller guilds form an alliance or merge into a bigger guild and give us competition. It would be way more fun than zoning into Fear/Hate and seeing guilds just gate/port out because they can't keep up pulls. I would love to see that happen.

[Abacab niggah]

I really do hope that the smaller guilds form an alliance or merge into a bigger guild and give us competition. It would be way more fun than zoning into Fear/Hate and seeing guilds just gate/port out because they can't keep up pulls. I would love to see that happen.

I will compete with your guilds if you sign a waiver that you will not petition for any reason what so ever.

[corradojeff]

I am neither for or against this thread at this point in my EQ playing career but I do see one point that may have been pver looked:

If the "Big three" decide to lock out all other guilds then eventually people will leave the game and the forum. This will cause the server to lose money and if the players of the "big three" can't pony up enough money every month the server will shut down.

[Ponden]

No, it really won't.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I really do hope that the smaller guilds form an alliance or merge into a bigger guild and give us competition. It would be way more fun than zoning into Fear/Hate and seeing guilds just gate/port out because they would rather not be trained/wiped in the process of being steamrolled or start a pissing match/petition spam over whom stole whose pull and risk GM suspending members of both guilds to 'teach us a lesson'. I would love to see that happen.

[hedbonker]

I am neither for or against this thread at this point in my EQ playing career but I do see one point that may have been pver looked:

If the "Big three" decide to lock out all other guilds then eventually people will leave the game and the forum. This will cause the server to lose money and if the players of the "big three" can't pony up enough money every month the server will shut down.

Not gonna happen...

[Torqumada286]

Compare body counts and get back to me.

Did the Somali's succeed in getting us out of Somalia? Then they won, regardless of the body count. The side with the smaller body count doesn't always win.

Torqumada

[Shrubwise]

http://www.projectmayhemguild.org/images/Areola.jpg

Why hasn't this been called out yet??

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

12 yr old loot. Players who have been there done that, and been there done that again. No interest whatsoever in locking down stuff for up to a year straight...kunark should open things up some. Much more fun playing it as a game now.

[Matrim]

I really do hope that the smaller guilds form an alliance or merge into a bigger guild and give us competition. It would be way more fun than zoning into Fear/Hate and seeing guilds just gate/port out because they can't keep up pulls. I would love to see that happen.

Sorry, Ponden, but some 'smaller guilds' actually value skill. Who cares if you can kill classic content if you need 40 people to do it. The "big three" have invited enough people to completely trivialize the content to the point where it doesn't matter how badly individuals perform because your numbers will always overwhelm the mob. If that's the model this server requires to 'give you competition'..well, I personally find that extremely unappealing.

Blackwater broke a full fear spawn with exactly 11 people this week - flawlessly. DA wiped with 50 last week. The "big three" may be getting God loot, but I'm definitely enjoying the game more in Blackwater.

[Taluvill]

Blackwater broke a full fear spawn with exactly 11 people this week - flawlessly. DA wiped with 50 last week. The "big three" may be getting God loot, but I'm definitely enjoying the game more in Blackwater.

Thats awesome that Blackwater did that, and I know they have a lot of skilled members. Just be in on the situation before you say that we wiped with 50. Don't speak about matters on which you know nothing about.

Edit: Meant that in the frendliest way possible btw = D

[girth]

there really isnt any poopsocking going on,

Then what do you call it when DA sits on naggy's spawn point? I'm curious.

[Matrim]

This ^^ :) The server (more particularly this forum) is a cesspit of rumours, most of which are nonsense. Nice work on the 11 man fear break though!

My bad, I guess. I was told you wiped three times in Fear with 50 people. I was told this by a source *within* DA, as well as by others who were in the zone.

I'm sure by your complete lack of contrary facts that it was a misunderstanding on my part, though.

Weird.

[Trimm]

The "big three" have invited enough people to completely trivialize the content to the point where it doesn't matter how badly individuals perform because your numbers will always overwhelm the mob. If that's the model this server requires to 'give you competition'..well, I personally find that extremely unappealing.


I hope you aren't including Divinity in this, because I actually agree with you. With the current state of the server and raiding, skill and personal performance falls behind sheer numbers. It hasn't always been this way, but it seems more and more that's how things have become.

I don't think its a secret that we have become less active in the God/Dragon races in the past month. We have jobs and families and can't log on 50 people at 9am to down Vox or CT. If your guild can, then go for it, it's not a knock on anyone. We have done our share of dragon racing, and now we're more focused on Sky for the time being. Ask anyone who has killed the Spiroc Lord with less than 40... It's an incredible encounter.

[girth]

I hope you aren't including Divinity in this, because I actually agree with you. With the current state of the server and raiding, skill and personal performance falls behind sheer numbers. It hasn't always been this way, but it seems more and more that's how things have become.

I don't think its a secret that we have become less active in the God/Dragon races in the past month. We have jobs and families and can't log on 50 people at 9am to down Vox or CT. If your guild can, then go for it, it's not a knock on anyone. We have done our share of dragon racing, and now we're more focused on Sky for the time being. Ask anyone who has killed the Spiroc Lord with less than 40... It's an incredible encounter.

That it is. I wish more people could have seen his buffed version, now that was just ridiculous.

[Taluvill]

Then what do you call it when DA sits on naggy's spawn point? I'm curious.

One camp out of many, and only because the way that the server was set up. IB would have been there if they weren't killing CT. We had the claim so their was no reason for you guys to show with anything but a tracker.

Every other boss we have mobilized to, I can't think of any recent spawn other than that naggy that we sat on really.

[Nakara]

False information leads to posts like this. Nobody wants a rotation aside from small guilds that can't mobilize fast enough for big targets or have the discipline to do things like that.

so the majority of the server then?

[girth]

One camp out of many, and only because we were scared to lose yet another target so we gave up even trying on CT once we lost draco and went to sit on naggy so nobody could even compete with us

fixed

[baub]

prolly shoulda rolled a troll, girth



just sayin

[Bodeanicus]

Greed, selfishness, poopsocking, squabbling and clusterfucks is not the superior system.

Those of us who were on Karana know better.

Getting hundreds of people to cooperate and agree on something is truely a glorious thing to behold.

Save your breath, guy. It's not going to happen on this server. It's full of sociopathic douchebags.

[Skope]

Get rid of variance!!~!~!~!

You'll actually have people speaking to each other. Smaller guilds who want to try at a boss mob can do so (provided they know when the big guy/girl will spawn) and you'll decrease the amount of two-boxing/SEQ going on. The fact is we can't keep this stupid thing called variance when it was specifically designed to prevent poopsock within the old rules and serves no practical purpose currently. It'll have to get dumped sooner or later -- come kunark, more specifically. I remember when FTE started and people were saying how it would inevitably get incredibly messy. That was dead wrong. There was some training and hate tells but ultimately those who couldn't keep up were left behind or disappeared altogether. Kill two birds with one stone and get rid of variance.

[Rhambuk]

Get rid of variance!!~!~!~!

You'll actually have people speaking to each other. Smaller guilds who want to try at a boss mob can do so (provided they know when the big guy/girl will spawn)

variance is pointless because of seq and other things but I don't believe getting rid of the variance is going to let smaller guilds have any sort of chance. The guild that last killed the boss is going to know the timer and they're just going to be right there for it again.

I just think youll be seeing multiple guilds sitting on a spawn point waiting for the exact minute it will spawn and whichever the mob agros first gets it, but no ones going to look at their they will all just rush it. Maybe im a little to negative on the subject but over the past 11 months i've seen no proof that shows otherwise.

[Rhambuk]

Doubly Doubly Doubly Doubly

[Trimm]

Every other boss we have mobilized to, I can't think of any recent spawn other than that naggy that we sat on really.

You did sit on top of Noble Dojorn with 52 people :)

[Taluvill]

Edited.

[Slathar]

Thanks for making me realize my life isn't so pathetic as to try to appear superior in an 11-year old emulation server of an online roleplaying game. Talk about trying to be a big fish in a tiny, tiny pond.

Wow.

Some of you really should take a step back and look at how stupid you sound.

edit: this post is directed at people attempting to start an argument about skill (lol skill in eq, we can all press buttons.)

[Rhambuk]

Thanks for making me realize my life isn't so pathetic as to try to appear superior in an 11-year old emulation server of an online roleplaying game. Talk about trying to be a big fish in a tiny, tiny pond.

Wow.

Some of you really should take a step back and look at how stupid you sound.

edit: this post is directed at people attempting to start an argument about skill (lol skill in eq, we can all press buttons.)

When guild A can take down a mob with 40 people, and it Guild B requires 60+

I would say there is some sort of skill involved...

[Stefen]

Going to take a wild guess and say that Slathar is tagged in Dark Ascension.

[Slathar]

It has nothing to do with what guild I'm in.

It's just not impressive to kill mob X with Y amount of people because it's been done before many, many times. No one cares. This is an emulation server of a dead game. Anything you do here isn't impressive.

:)

[Stefen]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it has everything to do with what guild you're in.

Nice attempt at justifying the zerg guild model, though.

Next?

[Slathar]

It's just not impressive to kill mob X with Y amount of people because it's been done before many, many times. No one cares. This is an emulation server of a dead game. Anything you do here isn't impressive.

:)

[Rhambuk]

DUH such an easy solution I can't believe no one thought of it before.

lets just get EVERY level 50 in the same guild, Then there would be no whining or bitching about what guild did what, because wed all be in the same guild!

So we raid nagafen with 400, who cares? its not like doing it with 15 is any big accomplishment its been done before.

I bring You, The Inglorius Dark veisca divine mystical darkwind!

( no offense to any guild names i may have left out, it just seemed long enough)

[Stefen]

Thanks for making me realize my life isn't so pathetic as to try to appear superior in an 11-year old emulation server of an online roleplaying game. Talk about trying to be a big fish in a tiny, tiny pond.

Wow.

Some of you really should take a step back and look at how stupid you sound.

edit: this post is directed at people attempting to start an argument about skill (lol skill in eq, we can all press buttons.)

Taken from the Dark Ascension post in the guild forum:

http://www.darkascensionguild.com

Our members are dedicated to bringing down the toughest mobs and equipping the best gear available. We strive to have the most skill, fastest mobilization, as well as the most number of boss kills.


Anything else, Slathar?

[Nakara]

i agree with slathar (im not even level 50 or in a guild)

you all sound like smarmy douches

grats on your poopsocking kills on emulation server of a 12 year old game lol

[Sinder]

I bring You, The Inglorius Dark veisca divine mystical darkwind!

sounds like a bowel movement :D

[Stefen]

Update: Shortly after my last post Slathar contacted me in game to let me know he was turning in all of his droppable loot, /guildremoving, and quitting the game.

Not even joking.

Careful, folks. The forums are a dangerous place.

One down, about two hundred to go.
See you next week, Slathar! <3

[Ind3]

Can I has loots?

[Slathar]

Update: Shortly after my last post Slathar contacted me in game to let me know he was turning in all of his droppable loot, /guildremoving, and quitting the game.

Not even joking.

Careful, folks. The forums are a dangerous place.

One down, about two hundred to go.
See you next week, Slathar! <3

You mean you sent me a tell first to which I replied I was logging in only to do the things mentioned in your post. The rest is true. Oh my god.

It doesn't have anything to do with me starting school, it all has to do with the forums guys! It's crazy!

Have fun poopsocking for ultimate smugness on a server of 900 people :)

[Nakara]

Update: Shortly after my last post Slathar contacted me in game to let me know he was turning in all of his droppable loot, /guildremoving, and quitting the game.

Not even joking.

Careful, folks. The forums are a dangerous place.

One down, about two hundred to go.
See you next week, Slathar! <3

smarmy douche exhibit A

[Stefen]

You mean you sent me a tell first to which I replied I was logging in only to do the things mentioned in your post. The rest is true. Oh my god.

It doesn't have anything to do with me starting school, it all has to do with the forums guys! It's crazy!

Have fun poopsocking for ultimate smugness on a server of 900 people :)

Here are the facts:

Two hours ago you were hardcore defending your chosen EQ playstyle in this very thread.

Shortly after my definitive raping of your logic, you were turning in all of your loot, removing yourself from DA, and supposedly quitting the game.

While it's possible that within the twenty minute span of your post and mine you made the decision to quit the game due to your RL situation (which I assume you've had and known about for some time now,) it's unlikely.

Also- Dark Ascension, the guild you left, is the ONLY guild currently poopsocking. Do you not understand that term, or was your final spiteful comment directed toward your former guildmates?

[Nakara]

you're just embarrassing yourself, stefen

[Stefen]

Nakara -You've admitted that you're unguilded and don't have a raid toon on this server.

In your opinion, what makes you an authority on anything* mentioned in this thread?

You're the one who thinks that name calling is a viable debate retort. Talk about embarrassing...

[Sieve]

Such a trend maker with the smarmy douche talk.

[Nakara]

In your opinion, what makes you an authority on anything* mentioned in this thread?


lol watch out for the authority

[Slathar]

Here are the facts:

Two hours ago you were hardcore defending your chosen EQ playstyle in this very thread.

Shortly after my definitive raping of your logic, you were turning in all of your loot, removing yourself from DA, and supposedly quitting the game.

While it's possible that within the twenty minute span of your post and mine you made the decision to quit the game due to your RL situation (which I assume you've had and known about for some time now,) it's unlikely.

Also- Dark Ascension, the guild you left, is the ONLY guild currently poopsocking. Do you not understand that term, or was your final spiteful comment directed toward your former guildmates?

exhibit b

[Lazortag]

Nakara loves to make claims with no supporting evidence whatsoever. Such as the claim he made in my signature. He also has a pattern of just generally being an annoying douche, which is easy to see from pretty much all of his posts. See:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=180523#post180523
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=180524#post180524
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=180526#post180526
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=180878#post180878
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=180883#post180883
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=179713#post179713
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=179291#post179291
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=177743#post177743
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=177684#post177684
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=177612#post177612
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=177610#post177610
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=177149#post177149
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=177090#post177090

This took literally five minutes of hitting this link (http://www.project1999.org/forums/search.php?searchid=409726) and just copy+pasting the links to every inane one-liner I could see in the first two pages. If I had gone through all of your posts, this post would be a lot longer.

[Sieve]

What a smarmy douche waggle..

[Nakara]

Nakara loves to make claims with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

says the guy who still thinks anarchy = free market lol

[Sieve]

says the guy who still thinks anarchy = free market lol

What a smarmy douche waggle canoe response.

[Loke]

Draco with 11 Skope? If that is true (I'm skeptical), color me impressed.

As far as the rest of this thread goes, lol ridiculous.

[girth]

prolly shoulda rolled a troll, girth



just sayin

I basically flipped a coin. Ogre won.

Also, this Stefen guy is fucking awesome.

[Slathar]

Wow, birds of a feather really do flock together.

Continue dedicating days of your life to an emulation server for online dominance.

[jeffd]

Continue dedicating days of your life to an emulation server for online dominance.

did that really just come from a DA member.

you can't be a neckbeard turbonerd for months and then make fun of your own kind as soon as you 'go back to school.' you're just as fucking stupid as they are.

[Slathar]

did that really just come from a DA member.

you can't be a neckbeard turbonerd for months and then make fun of your own kind as soon as you 'go back to school.' you're just as fucking stupid as they are.

No.

[jeffd]

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6376/okayd.jpg

[Slathar]

I laughed.

[rachel]

Not sure DA is the only guild socking it. Just observation but I saw 11 IB sit in permafrost for 12hours or so. I am not sure if 12 hours is poopsocking. It was 12 hours with a few members 24hours on different days.

I also don't really give a fuck , because i'm just waiting for kunark.
I don't want to log on P1999 when show eq is ruining it. Great I make a named pop , I die or go afk for a few minutes. People show up almost instantly and take the named. Yet these people never show up if the named aren't up... hmmmm.

Fuck it. Play the game for fun. Don't cheat. We all like good loot, but don't cheat to get it. At least Poopsocking is legit. But it does take the fun out of eq and burn people out fast.

[girth]

Not sure DA is the only guild socking it. Just observation but I saw 11 IB sit in permafrost for 12hours or so. I am not sure if 12 hours is poopsocking.

Poopsocking pretty much means camping in a way that nobody can compete with you. This came about b/c the old rules only made you have 15 in a zone to claim a boss spawn in said zone, now you must have 15 people within agro range of a boss spawn point to claim a boss prior to it spawning. Having 12 online in perma is not poopsocking. Having 15+ on vox's spawn point IS poopsocking. IB has not poopsocked since Sky came out and the rules were changed, nor do we want to.

[Supreme]

And the beat goes on....and on....and on.....

Rotation fails. FFA and FTE. I used to support rotation but i think that if you put in the time you deserve the reward. If your guild has no desire to put in the time to poopsock and you do..then join a guild that poopsocks.

Trans has never been a guild that has a desire to put in the time to poopsock *cough*.

[Trystych]

Not sure DA is the only guild socking it. Just observation but I saw 11 IB sit in permafrost for 12hours or so. I am not sure if 12 hours is poopsocking.

As far as I am concerned, camping your raid buffed near a spawn is so akin to poopsocking we might as well just call it that. IB would prefer not to camp/poopsock raid targets, however, we are driven individuals who will do what is necessary to compete with a guild that has adopted this as their new strategy. Trackers and mobilization, my open challenge to DA to compete on this field instead of relying on poopsocking.


Fuck it. Play the game for fun. Don't cheat. We all like good loot, but don't cheat to get it.

This sums it up for me. My version of fun happens to be the guy going home with all the marbles, but I refuse to cheat in order to do so. I find hitting the track button for 8 hours at a time to be very rewarding when that boss spawns and your guild gets there first. Any other guild can do the same, put in effort and dedication for tracking, train your people how to move quickly and efficiently, and kill bosses. Or you could make threads on the forums to ask for rotations so you can see a boss with zero effort. You won't see me wanting to hold your hand and sing kumbaya to make this happen; I am far too busy collecting scalps for Lt. Aldo Raine.

[Stefen]

Trystych, how do you reconcile your refusal to cheat with the recent actions of IB?

I'm referring to the many allegations of intentional training by an IB officer against various guilds engaged in raid boss content.

[Molitoth]

Blackwater broke a full fear spawn with exactly 11 people this week - flawlessly. DA wiped with 50 last week. The "big three" may be getting God loot, but I'm definitely enjoying the game more in Blackwater.

I'm a fan of Blackwater, and appreciate what they do. Its the same thing Eminence was doing before the DA merge. (Eminence broke fear with 9 members flawlessly I may add)

Divinity witnessed us (Eminence) almost take Innoruuk with 15 at 9am one morning and if we would've had another attempt at it, he would've died. Things can be done with the right classes, and enough time to get setup.

This game is the most fun when things are challenging. That said... there is so much competition on this server for mobs that trying to kill a dragon with 15 people isn't going to happen when the powerguilds show up in force within 10 minutes. Eminence was sick of doing simple fear/hate and had to go with the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality.

If you want to experience end game kills/loot, I'm sorry but this is the way it is. You think Kunark is going to help??? probably not.. you will still see the top 2-3 guilds holding down every boss mob in game, thats just how dedicated people are on this server, they have been waiting YEARS for eqclassic.

[Stefen]

No offense, Molitoth, but everything you just said can be summed up in three words - "We sold out".

You accept that this server will never have a healthy raid environment while guilds are zerg recruiting. Instead of working on a solution, you sacrificed your ideal play style to help perpetuate the problem.

If you enjoy a challenge, tell me, what exactly is the appeal of raiding with DA? 50+ people wiping to content that three groups can do, and now you've been exposed as using illegal third party programs to facilitate your mobilization. Is saying you've killed nagafen under those circumstance really something you'd want to celebrate?

[baub]

they have been waiting YEARS for eqclassic.

^

[Bodeanicus]

Update: Shortly after my last post Slathar contacted me in game to let me know he was turning in all of his droppable loot, /guildremoving, and quitting the game.

Not even joking.

Careful, folks. The forums are a dangerous place.

One down, about two hundred to go.
See you next week, Slathar! <3

He should delete the loot. Publicly.

[Yinikren]

There is a simple answer to all of this. Stop forming goddamn guilds. What someone said on the first page, about 12 guilds being able to clear fear on this server, absolutely floored me.

Sometimes, when everyone is being retarded, I think a good punishment for you all would be to combine all these "raid guilds" into one, and let them have their mobs. Oh, the hilarity.

[Skope]

Yes, Loke, we did it with 11.

You also don't need 50 people to take down a god/dragon, regardless of how many of another guild(s) are there. If it's true and guilds have started afk-poopsocking at potential spawns then it's rather sad (and perhaps explainable by certain recent events). I could see it happening on the last potential spawn in a cycle (everything else is dead) but otherwise it's just not advantageous unless you're gunning for 1 mob in particular. What i'm saying is you don't need to mass recruit and poopsock to get a kill now. If you really want one then hop on a tracker and get to business

Molitoth, you had 19 and you got him to <5%. And, let's be honest, you caved in and sold out.

[Jenni D]

Trystych, how do you reconcile your refusal to cheat with the recent actions of IB?

I'm referring to the many allegations of intentional training by an IB officer against various guilds engaged in raid boss content.

this should be interesting to read :)

[korrowan]

Definitely. Barring legit reasons irl.

Sounds like you have no RL.

[Tudana]

And the beat goes on....and on....and on.....

Rotation fails. FFA and FTE. I used to support rotation but i think that if you put in the time you deserve the reward. If your guild has no desire to put in the time to poopsock and you do..then join a guild that poopsocks.

Trans has never been a guild that has a desire to put in the time to poopsock *cough*.

Is trans even a guild anymore?

[Slathar]

Is saying you've killed nagafen under those circumstance really something you'd want to celebrate?

Everytime I kill a raid mob in Everquest I celebrate by running around my house fist pumping for 20 minutes.

[Rhambuk]

da can't raid for a week, and if you miss even one cycle of gods/dragons then whats the point of playing? Might as well just quit...

[Molitoth]

If this turns into a flamewar, i will simply stop posting here, but I will have general conversation if this stays civil.

No offense, Molitoth, but everything you just said can be summed up in three words - "We sold out".

Yes we did, and it was the best decision we could've made. We've been having fun killing end game dragons for months now, instead of stuck in the same hate/fear grinds a lot of guilds are. Continued....

You accept that this server will never have a healthy raid environment while guilds are zerg recruiting. Instead of working on a solution, you sacrificed your ideal play style to help perpetuate the problem.

There were many solutions discussed on these forums over the past year, all getting shot down and made fun of. Personally I think the best solution would be instanced planes. This gives any raid force a chance at raiding when they want to. Is it "carebear"? yes. Is it classic? no. But would it solve the problem? yes.
We have 50% of the people bitching that they can never raid anything due to the powerguilds and then you have 50% of the people saying that they enjoy the "race" or "competition" for a target. These GM's cannot please everyone, and when everyone is already torn in half, this doesn't leave much room for them to put in a solution. Instances are not going to happen.
Rotation will bore the shit out of most IB/DA/Divinty members and you're going to get a bunch of members quitting left and right. You know how long a rotation would be on this server? You can make a guild of 20 people and kill anything outside of Plane of Sky.



If you enjoy a challenge, tell me, what exactly is the appeal of raiding with DA? 50+ people wiping to content that three groups can do, and now you've been exposed as using illegal third party programs to facilitate your mobilization. Is saying you've killed nagafen under those circumstance really something you'd want to celebrate?


You have to understand that DA and IB's goals are to kill shit. People join these guilds because they get sick of clearing fear and hate trash over and over again. If these people don't go to DA, then they go to IB... and vice versa. DA could close recruitment, and turn everyone away that applies, but what will happen is all of the people will go to IB and eventually we will have burnout with people quitting and find ourselves without the members to compete with IB for boss kills. Is it more fun to kill bosses with less people? yes. You have to remember this game came out in 1999. Nothing is new here. I enjoy DA because of the hilarious people in the guild, and the mentality we go by. DA really isn't as bad as some people say they are. We get a bad rep because we kill all the bosses and have great mobilization. Haters are gonna hate. Does it have an unknown bad seed or two? yes, just like any guild, and trust us... this hurts us more than it helps us.

As expected, we know that what the cheater in our guild did is going to hurt our reputation as a whole and that is why we want no part in cheating. We are glad he is banned, and are glad that the GM's are taking action, because this was not just taking place in DA. It's taking place around the server, and it needs to stop. It's a shot to the face against all the trackers who actually sit there and mash thier track button like total losers.

Anyway, there is my take.

[Wrei]

I love it when people debate about "skill" in EQ... Yes the game is old, yes there's thousands of web resources on any encounter, yes the game is not as micro intensive as some of the latest mmo. Yet despite how EASY it is to play EQ, the average player in p99 is a complete epic failure at playing EFFICIENTLY never mind being a decent raider.

So why is that? Fact is that most of them don't bother doing research on the most basic things and we witness the following:

1. Mmm i didn't buy that spell, didn't realize we could do that.
2. Umm... how do i get to you guys? I don't know the zone.
3. Ummm how do i get to the zone? I'm in EC and don't know the way to there.
4. Can you give me str,dex,agi,ac,every resist,ultravision,levitate before i fight?
5. I will buff you str,dex,agi,ac,every resist and be at 10m before pulls.
6. I'm an FD class but don't know how to pull, oh wait i don't even know the zone so i really don't even know where to pull from.
7. Assist? Wat? Dude it was beating on the cleric so i hit the mezzed target, chill and re-mez it.
8. Assist? Wat Wut? Dude the MT keeps flipping target every 2 sec and i cannot even read group chat to stay on 1 mob.
9. Hi, i like to keep auto attacking to death on a mob that has a DS on it. OMG i died @#$@$@# healers.
10. Hi, i like to stand around melee mobs that are rooted even though they tell me to move. Dude i need to cap my defense rating chill.
11. Remember this is just a game, so what you waited an hour before you formed up a party to go in. So what you spent 15min invising to camp, so what 1 of the r tards got lost because they went ninja afk, so what we're finally in camp and the r tard pulls 3 caster mob and group wipes, so what that half of the group goes afk while doing CR. This is a GAME chill! Cause i like wasting time.
12. Hi, i don't understand why i can't nuke immediately when we have a war for a tank.
13. Mob is beating on me, get it off! Wat's root? Dude I'm a cleric! I don't mem shit like root, i got gate memmed so i can rez you guys after we wipe.
14. Loc? sorry I don't know how to use Loc, can you come get me?
15. Mmmm don't know where i died, it should be around there. Lol what you want me to hit loc before i die? Why?
16. Dude i'm a mage, be glad i'm sending pet on a mob. You want me to what? keep up a ds? actually nuke? hit an assist macro so i'm on right mob? Visually see that my pet is on right mob in case assist got flipped? WTF is wrong with you, let me watch tv in the background. FYI my pet can tank and kill these just fine, the fact the tank will get beat on for another 30 sec and make the healer waste 4 heals is irrelevant.

I could go on forever... you've all seen these players. Now here's the funnier part they end up 46+. Then we witness the following in raids.

1. Umm sorry i got lost where are you guys? Can you come get me even though I've been in hate and fear 94 times already but still don't know my way.
2. Stop yelling at me 8 times, I know my pet keeps breaking mezzes but i choose not to send it on right target because that's how I roll. If we had a zerg force of 50 players it wouldn't matter if i broke mez so get more players kk.
3. Hi i like to afk 95% of the time while we're raiding. You need something specific like me attacking, sending pet, buffing then send me a tell otherwise i won't do shit.
4. Ummm what do you mean cancel my comp heal? Dude tank was dying! Wut do you mean other clerics are also comp healing?
5. Hi, I like to keep remezzing the same mob every 10 sec cause you know mobs can break before mez duration.
6. What I gotta wait for a tank to break mez? Why's that.
7. Umm guys I lost my pet and don't know where it went. Not even sure when I lost my pet lol. Oh there he is, he brought some friends.

Now the really hilarious part. Every guild on p99 except those that profess on being casual says the same shit on their website.

1. We are dedicated
2. We know wtf we're doing
3. We got a strong core
4. We pew pew stuff, don't you want phat loot
5. We don't know what drama is

So scrub player A hits 46+. The kind that never in a million years would make the cut in any self respecting raiding guild is now being humped by 8+ guilds. DA has shown the way. They are on top of the food chain because they were the first to mass invite half the server. Every other raiding guild joined the mass invite bandwagon afterwards.

1. Hey, we're awesome you want to join our guild?
2. Hey, we need your class, you'll get phat loot and don't need to do squat.

Then these scrubs act all high and mighty. Kind of like 10 butt ugly chick getting constantly hit on by 80 + horny boys. It doesn't matter how ugly they are, apparently as long as you have boobs and a hole it's all good (sorry for the terribly crude analogy).

So yes, it may not look like much but it does take skill to play this game. It's sad when the so called top end raiding guilds all have to go down on their knees to recruit the shittiest players the server has to offer. Seriously, I may no longer be killing dragons at this time but at least I don't have to put up with that anymore.

On a side note, I have NOTHING against casual gamers. We all have different ways to enjoy EQ. My way of fun may not be yours. That being said, don't @#$@$@# apply to a top end raiding guild and call yourself a raider when you're not going to dedicate on becoming a better player. Past playing experience means nothing, so what you were a scrub in a former uber guild. I've witnessed new players who are already above average and end up being great at the game. It's all about how they approach the game. I just hate the posers who say all the right things but end up doing nothing. The worst are when those posers join a zerg guild and talk so much smack on the forums...

[Molitoth]

da can't raid for a week, and if you miss even one cycle of gods/dragons then whats the point of playing? Might as well just quit...

It's funny that Divinity is here bashing DA when as a whole, DA members respect Divinity and just worked a rotation out with them on a particular mob.

[quellren]

Damn Wrei. I've accepted I'm a fairly misanthropic person at times, but you make me look like I have sunshine and rainbows shooting out of my ass.

Shit, wait. I'm doing it wrong:
UMadBro?

Seriously. Step back and take a deep breath. Have you tried explaining to them what they're doing wrong?

[Rhambuk]

It's funny that Divinity is here bashing DA when as a whole, DA members respect Divinity and just worked a rotation out with them on a particular mob.

This is true, I have no ill feelings towards DA as a whole. I was just being a smartass towards this one guy who claims he has to be super hardcore or the game isn't fun ;)

[Wrei]

I was just stating all the things we know to be true but won't come out and say it. To answer your question, my post was not directed at the casual players in general. It was directed at the casual players talking a big game to get into a raiding guild. As for telling them what to do, you do that to applicants when they make mistakes. In pugs, people are generally not receptive when a stranger tells them what to do (even in the most diplomatic tone).

PS: I'm not mad, sorry for telling things as it is.

[Ponden]

It's funny that Divinity is here bashing DA when as a whole, DA members respect Divinity and just worked a rotation out with them on a particular mob.

NOOOOOOOOBLE!

[Rhambuk]

NOOOOOOOOBLE!

yes both guilds were waiting on noble to spawn, we each had the 1 week timer and instead of fighting over it every week we decided to rotate it on a weekly basis, we had got i the week before so da got the noble of the night after we made a deal to rotate.

imo this is far better than having both guilds convene an hour before hes due, sky mobs are not on a variance, and sit half their raid on the spawn point then argue for an hour over who agrod first and who tried to ks whom.

[quellren]

...the average player in p99 is a complete epic failure at playing EFFICIENTLY never mind being a decent raider.

So why is that? Fact is that most of them don't bother doing research on the most basic things and we witness the following:

(16 examples)

I could go on forever... you've all seen these players. Now here's the funnier part they end up 46+. Then we witness the following in raids.

(7 more examples)

So scrub player A hits 46+. The kind that never in a million years would make the cut in any self respecting raiding guild is now being humped by 8+ guilds. DA has shown the way. They are on top of the food chain because they were the first to mass invite half the server. Every other raiding guild joined the mass invite bandwagon afterwards.


Then these scrubs act all high and mighty. Kind of like 10 butt ugly chick getting constantly hit on by 80 + horny boys. It doesn't matter how ugly they are, apparently as long as you have boobs and a hole it's all good (sorry for the terribly crude analogy).

So yes, it may not look like much but it does take skill to play this game. It's sad when the so called top end raiding guilds all have to go down on their knees to recruit the shittiest players the server has to offer. Seriously, I may no longer be killing dragons at this time but at least I don't have to put up with that anymore.

On a side note, I have NOTHING against casual gamers. We all have different ways to enjoy EQ. My way of fun may not be yours. That being said, don't @#$@$@# apply to a top end raiding guild and call yourself a raider when you're not going to dedicate on becoming a better player. Past playing experience means nothing, so what you were a scrub in a former uber guild. I've witnessed new players who are already above average and end up being great at the game. It's all about how they approach the game. I just hate the posers who say all the right things but end up doing nothing. The worst are when those posers join a zerg guild and talk so much smack on the forums...

Shrug. My initial understanding was that you were directing this at people that weren't up your standard, you know, on raids.

[Molitoth]

yes both guilds were waiting on noble to spawn, we each had the 1 week timer and instead of fighting over it every week we decided to rotate it on a weekly basis, we had got i the week before so da got the noble of the night after we made a deal to rotate.

imo this is far better than having both guilds convene an hour before hes due, sky mobs are not on a variance, and sit half their raid on the spawn point then argue for an hour over who agrod first and who tried to ks whom.

It was a good example of how things can be handled in a civil manner with respectful guilds.

[Ponden]

DA will miss noble's next pop, but IB will be there!

[Molitoth]

Molitoth, you had 19 and you got him to <5%. And, let's be honest, you caved in and sold out.

Well, 4 of those characters were dual boxed by people who have already been banned for boxing. Thats why I said 15. Put real people focusing all thier effort on those characters and Inny was a dead boss.

Yes, Eminence sold out. It was a smart move.

[Dach]

yes both guilds were waiting on noble to spawn, we each had the 1 week timer and instead of fighting over it every week we decided to rotate it on a weekly basis, we had got i the week before so da got the noble of the night after we made a deal to rotate.

imo this is far better than having both guilds convene an hour before hes due, sky mobs are not on a variance, and sit half their raid on the spawn point then argue for an hour over who agrod first and who tried to ks whom.

This!

Developers, take notice. Classic static situations can and do work.

Variance is not classic and is a cheap cop out.

An invisible guide as a witness for poor behavior at god and dragon raids and consequences for that behavior could go a long ways and still be classic, but the nobel rotation above is a fine example of how things can and should work.

Completely player arranged.

That's what I'm talking about.

[Rhambuk]

It was a good example of how things can be handled in a civil manner with respectful guilds.

I agree and personally would like to see more of it, when multiple guilds are waiting for a spawn to strike a quick deal you get this one we get next one.

It doesn't need to be a set in stone rotation of week 1 guild a gets it week 2 guild b gets it, but giving up a mob one week to have one less guild to compete with, not a guaranteed kill by any means just that the guild you made an agreement with will honor.

After guild a gets theres and guild b gets theres then it can go back to full competition, and since most mobs are on a variance on the 3rd cycle respawn Should be varied enough that either guild would have equal chances to spot him up first and race.

not a rotation or raid fix suggestion by any means, just thoughts on how a little civility could ease all this drama and spread the wealth...

[Lazortag]

I love it when people debate about "skill" in EQ... Yes the game is old, yes there's thousands of web resources on any encounter, yes the game is not as micro intensive as some of the latest mmo. Yet despite how EASY it is to play EQ, the average player in p99 is a complete epic failure at playing EFFICIENTLY never mind being a decent raider.

So why is that? Fact is that most of them don't bother doing research on the most basic things and we witness the following:

1. Mmm i didn't buy that spell, didn't realize we could do that.
2. Umm... how do i get to you guys? I don't know the zone.
3. Ummm how do i get to the zone? I'm in EC and don't know the way to there.
4. Can you give me str,dex,agi,ac,every resist,ultravision,levitate before i fight?
5. I will buff you str,dex,agi,ac,every resist and be at 10m before pulls.
6. I'm an FD class but don't know how to pull, oh wait i don't even know the zone so i really don't even know where to pull from.
7. Assist? Wat? Dude it was beating on the cleric so i hit the mezzed target, chill and re-mez it.
8. Assist? Wat Wut? Dude the MT keeps flipping target every 2 sec and i cannot even read group chat to stay on 1 mob.
9. Hi, i like to keep auto attacking to death on a mob that has a DS on it. OMG i died @#$@$@# healers.
10. Hi, i like to stand around melee mobs that are rooted even though they tell me to move. Dude i need to cap my defense rating chill.
11. Remember this is just a game, so what you waited an hour before you formed up a party to go in. So what you spent 15min invising to camp, so what 1 of the r tards got lost because they went ninja afk, so what we're finally in camp and the r tard pulls 3 caster mob and group wipes, so what that half of the group goes afk while doing CR. This is a GAME chill! Cause i like wasting time.
12. Hi, i don't understand why i can't nuke immediately when we have a war for a tank.
13. Mob is beating on me, get it off! Wat's root? Dude I'm a cleric! I don't mem shit like root, i got gate memmed so i can rez you guys after we wipe.
14. Loc? sorry I don't know how to use Loc, can you come get me?
15. Mmmm don't know where i died, it should be around there. Lol what you want me to hit loc before i die? Why?
16. Dude i'm a mage, be glad i'm sending pet on a mob. You want me to what? keep up a ds? actually nuke? hit an assist macro so i'm on right mob? Visually see that my pet is on right mob in case assist got flipped? WTF is wrong with you, let me watch tv in the background. FYI my pet can tank and kill these just fine, the fact the tank will get beat on for another 30 sec and make the healer waste 4 heals is irrelevant.

I could go on forever... you've all seen these players. Now here's the funnier part they end up 46+. Then we witness the following in raids.

1. Umm sorry i got lost where are you guys? Can you come get me even though I've been in hate and fear 94 times already but still don't know my way.
2. Stop yelling at me 8 times, I know my pet keeps breaking mezzes but i choose not to send it on right target because that's how I roll. If we had a zerg force of 50 players it wouldn't matter if i broke mez so get more players kk.
3. Hi i like to afk 95% of the time while we're raiding. You need something specific like me attacking, sending pet, buffing then send me a tell otherwise i won't do shit.
4. Ummm what do you mean cancel my comp heal? Dude tank was dying! Wut do you mean other clerics are also comp healing?
5. Hi, I like to keep remezzing the same mob every 10 sec cause you know mobs can break before mez duration.
6. What I gotta wait for a tank to break mez? Why's that.
7. Umm guys I lost my pet and don't know where it went. Not even sure when I lost my pet lol. Oh there he is, he brought some friends.

Now the really hilarious part. Every guild on p99 except those that profess on being casual says the same shit on their website.

1. We are dedicated
2. We know wtf we're doing
3. We got a strong core
4. We pew pew stuff, don't you want phat loot
5. We don't know what drama is

So scrub player A hits 46+. The kind that never in a million years would make the cut in any self respecting raiding guild is now being humped by 8+ guilds. DA has shown the way. They are on top of the food chain because they were the first to mass invite half the server. Every other raiding guild joined the mass invite bandwagon afterwards.

1. Hey, we're awesome you want to join our guild?
2. Hey, we need your class, you'll get phat loot and don't need to do squat.

Then these scrubs act all high and mighty. Kind of like 10 butt ugly chick getting constantly hit on by 80 + horny boys. It doesn't matter how ugly they are, apparently as long as you have boobs and a hole it's all good (sorry for the terribly crude analogy).

So yes, it may not look like much but it does take skill to play this game. It's sad when the so called top end raiding guilds all have to go down on their knees to recruit the shittiest players the server has to offer. Seriously, I may no longer be killing dragons at this time but at least I don't have to put up with that anymore.

On a side note, I have NOTHING against casual gamers. We all have different ways to enjoy EQ. My way of fun may not be yours. That being said, don't @#$@$@# apply to a top end raiding guild and call yourself a raider when you're not going to dedicate on becoming a better player. Past playing experience means nothing, so what you were a scrub in a former uber guild. I've witnessed new players who are already above average and end up being great at the game. It's all about how they approach the game. I just hate the posers who say all the right things but end up doing nothing. The worst are when those posers join a zerg guild and talk so much smack on the forums...

This post is epic. It perfectly describes... everything. Just, wow. I'd make it my sig if it wasn't so long.

Honestly, there is such a thing as skill in eq. The point isn't that it's a big achievement to have skill, but rather that it's absolutely pathetic to not have skill. For example, when DA invited me on the hate clear recently, I realized that Slathar was an idiot when he gated after the raid was done rather than porting out the people who didn't have gate. This is just an unfathomably obviously stupid thing that you don't do (since the consequence is leaving people up in Hate with few ways of getting out). I have no deeper point other than that it's hilarious when Slathar says stuff like this:

...

Some of you really should take a step back and look at how stupid you sound.

edit: this post is directed at people attempting to start an argument about skill (lol skill in eq, we can all press buttons.)

I have nothing but nice things to say about the other people on the raid, but as far as Slathar is concerned, I think he should reconsider whether skill exists in eq and whether he has any.

[jeffd]

Eminence couldn't compete and sold out.

yeah.

[Slathar]

This post is epic. It perfectly describes... everything. Just, wow. I'd make it my sig if it wasn't so long.

Honestly, there is such a thing as skill in eq. The point isn't that it's a big achievement to have skill, but rather that it's absolutely pathetic to not have skill. For example, when DA invited me on the hate clear recently, I realized that Slathar was an idiot when he gated after the raid was done rather than porting out the people who didn't have gate. This is just an unfathomably obviously stupid thing that you don't do (since the consequence is leaving people up in Hate with few ways of getting out). I have no deeper point other than that it's hilarious when Slathar says stuff like this:



I have nothing but nice things to say about the other people on the raid, but as far as Slathar is concerned, I think he should reconsider whether skill exists in eq and whether he has any.


i left an hour before the raid ended, nice try though.

also, you're the best bard on project1999. you have so much skill i am very impressed by it. congrats.

[Rhambuk]

Wrei hit it spot on, a class can do the bare minimum and still be able to play that class "well" but there are players that have skill and know what to do that take it to a completely new level.

To say that eq takes no skill is nonsense, not every enchanter can solo efreeti I've met a handful that can and it wasn't because of their gear, it was because they knew how to play their class.

There are a TON of little tricks classes have that when utilized make them what they truly are, instead people want a hotkey to do it for them and since its unavailable they cry.

[Tudana]

Wrei hit it spot on, a class can do the bare minimum and still be able to play that class "well" but there are players that have skill and know what to do that take it to a completely new level.

To say that eq takes no skill is nonsense, not every enchanter can solo efreeti I've met a handful that can and it wasn't because of their gear, it was because they knew how to play their class.

There are a TON of little tricks classes have that when utilized make them what they truly are, instead people want a hotkey to do it for them and since its unavailable they cry.

Between what Wrei said and this...

Well put guys

[Lazortag]

i left an hour before the raid ended, nice try though.

People were saying to send you tells for ports. I vaguely remember that you were still there towards the end too, and suddenly you had gated. That's what one of your guild members said too, but it's possible (just very unlikely) that you just left an hour before and we all didn't notice.

[Rhambuk]

Zerging, though viable, isn't going to be very wise in kunark.

If it takes you 60+ people to do trak it'll be months before you even start trying VP, trak drops 2 maybe 3 teeth = keys per kill, and even longer to start farming it reliably.

The guild that can do bosses with fewer numbers are going to be the ones that progress faster in kunark, just how keyed dungeons work, sure the zerg guilds can try to cockblock for months but trak is not easy and they won't win everytime unless they mass recruit even more which is just going to take even longer to key for vp.

The guilds that only need to key 30-40 as opposed to 60+ are going to be the ones inside vp clearing it unopposed while the zergers are still trying to key up.

Kunark is a different game, theres going to be a lot of changes....

[Ponden]

Kunark is a different game, theres going to be a lot of changes....

You're right. The game will change. It is so much easier to cock-block progression.

[Rhambuk]

You're right. The game will change. It is so much easier to cock-block progression.

people will get tired of cockblocking pretty quickly when thats all they do since they won't have the ability to progress themselves.

[Ponden]

No, they won't. It isn't going to be a huge hippy fest where guilds are sharing targets and getting all this phat loot. It will be the same as it now, minus some DA members(see what I did there?). The cock-blocks will be put up, VP will be a 1-2 guild zone mostly, and most guilds will keep Vox/Naggy locked.

[Nakara]

I think he should reconsider whether skill exists in eq

pro tip: it doesn't

a lot of people confusing time with skill itt

[quellren]

No, they won't. It isn't going to be a huge hippy fest where guilds are sharing targets and getting all this phat loot. It will be the same as it now, minus some DA members(see what I did there?). The cock-blocks will be put up, VP will be a 1-2 guild zone mostly, and most guilds will keep Vox/Naggy locked.

Add in to the mix large targets needed for epics and there's going to be a full time-24/7 pissing contest to ensure someone is screwing someone else over for something.

Quite honestly, I give it 10 days before literary meltdowns start showing up on these boards about retribution kills.

[quellren]

people will get tired of cockblocking pretty quickly when thats all they do since they won't have the ability to progress themselves.

It seems that some people would rather ensure that if they can't have it, no one can; rather than take one step back to get two steps forward.

[Orruar]

people will get tired of cockblocking pretty quickly when thats all they do since they won't have the ability to progress themselves.

You underestimate how pathetic some people can be.

[Scrooge]

people will get tired of cockblocking pretty quickly when thats all they do since they won't have the ability to progress themselves.

IB has been doing it for just about a year now, ask them if they're tired of it yet lol

[Grod]

There is definitely skill in Everquest but it mainly has to do with intelligence and decision making. The combat is relatively slower paced, so the order in which you do things over a longer period of time matters tremendously. In addition, a player with skill is more likely to recognize other players with skill because they are correctly assessing the overall situation.

It's funny but players with less skill are 1) more likely to laugh about the game requiring skill because they can't tell the difference between good players and bad because they ARE one of the bad players and 2) more likely to call other players noobs because they don't know what's going on or why another way is better / more efficient / safer then the way they do things. It's actually annoying because some players will stubbornly do things in a worse way while you KNOW they are looking down on other players in the process, especially if they are in a "good" guild.

In reality, the majority of players in top guilds are average at best and power through some content not on superior skill but based on the gear advantages they've obtained as part of that guild. The strength of the top guilds are usually in a small core of players and the leadership that develops the strategies however the strategy aspect is irrelevant on this server since it's all old content.

A lot of raid bosses in Everquest are "zergable" in the sense that you can bring more then the content was designed for and that's precisely what many guilds did so every single expansion the raid content was designed for more and more players. It wasn't the developers fault, they were simply designing content for the amount of players the guilds were using. If they designed the original dragons for 24, some guilds that had trouble would bring an extra group of people until they could kill it. Next thing you know the next expansion is now developing raid content for 30 people and so on and so forth and that's exactly what happened in the raiding game each expansion. The problem with going too large with your guild relative to what the encounter requires is that you will spread the loot too thin among your core members. That's why the better guilds tended to try to keep the guild size closer to what the encounters required and the variance was small, but for the guilds a little behind the curve (but still beating the top content) they were bringing that extra few players which would result in the next raid zone requiring a few extra players to beat it and every guild across the board would have to recruit more to keep up. There is no reason to continue to increase guild size if you already have the players to beat the encounters. However, that's not what happened and the increase in guild size was a neverending cycle and it is why the natural progression ultimately became instanced content with caps on the number of players you can bring. It's also why the Everquest model is severely outdated and not likely to make it into a mainstream MMORPG again anytime soon. Hence, why we play here :) (Well for me, defeating boredom and it's free!)

[t0lkien]

However, that's not what happened and the increase in guild size was a neverending cycle and it is why the natural progression ultimately became instanced content with caps on the number of players you can bring. It's also why the Everquest model is severely outdated and not likely to make it into a mainstream MMORPG again anytime soon.

IMO instances are a cheap, very non-MMO way of dealing with what is really an AI issue. There are other way around the problem. It's relatively easy to come up with mob mechanics that either penalize, or make large raid numbers irrelevant.

I think EQ was one of the last games to actually get this aspect right - keep the entire world open and truly MMO and alive. And that's why we're here playing a 10 year old game instead of any of the new ones.

P.S. I'm betting future (some) games will return to this model.

[Scrooge]

Well said, Grod. Especially the first part, that is very true.

[Torqumada286]

IMO instances are a cheap, very non-MMO way of dealing with what is really an AI issue. There are other way around the problem. It's relatively easy to come up with mob mechanics that either penalize, or make large raid numbers irrelevant.

I think EQ was one of the last games to actually get this aspect right - keep the entire world open and truly MMO and alive. And that's why we're here playing a 10 year old game instead of any of the new ones.

P.S. I'm betting future (some) games will return to this model.

I have to agree about the open world aspect of EQ.

Torqumada

[Lazortag]

...

It's funny but players with less skill are 1) more likely to laugh about the game requiring skill because they can't tell the difference between good players and bad because they ARE one of the bad players and 2) more likely to call other players noobs because they don't know what's going on or why another way is better / more efficient / safer then the way they do things. It's actually annoying because some players will stubbornly do things in a worse way while you KNOW they are looking down on other players in the process, especially if they are in a "good" guild.

...

I agree with this so much. This is exactly what I was trying to say but so much clearer.

Example: one time I was in a group back when /split x y z w would actually do conversions for people. Some guy was asking how to destroy his gold because it was weighing him down too much (we were all around level 15, it was an alt of mine, and I think it was an alt of his too. He had a couple hundred gold if I remember). While people are trying to explain to this idiot how to destroy money, I tell him that he should just split the money first since he's going to destroy it anyway. He tells me how that would just weigh us down, but I tell him it gets converted to platinum so it won't matter (and also that we could just destroy it ourselves if we really didn't want it). He then FREAKS out and starts telling me how I shouldn't be questioning him because he was (get this) "a hardcore raid leader for five years" on live, and ragequits the group. All this from a guy who didn't know how to destroy gold.

[Otto]

Truth

The reason so many people have stopped playing.

The community here in high end gaming blows, and everyone always thinks they're right.

[guineapig]

As a side note.

In case anyone didn't know, Divinity does not mass recruit and our application process is fairly in-depth. Also, raid attendance is not mandatory. We're still able to take down the most difficult content in the game that's realistically doable at level 50 (dual wielding Spiroc Lord). The old world targets do not even compare.

Just had to bring this up again because I keep seeing us lumped into the mass recruiting and poopsocking comments which has never been true of us.

[girth]

As a side note.

In case anyone didn't know, Divinity does not mass recruit and our application process is fairly in-depth. Also, raid attendance is not mandatory. We're still able to take down the most difficult content in the game (dual wielding Spiroc Lord). The old world targets do not even compare.

Just had to bring this up again because I keep seeing us lumped into the mass recruiting and poopsocking comments which has never been true of us.

Not trying to flame, but Spiroc Lord is not the hardest content in game right now...not by a long shot.

Overseer of Air? Bazzt Zzzt? The Hand of Veeshan?

[Trimm]

Overseer of Air? Bazzt Zzzt? The Hand of Veeshan?

I'm pretty sure he meant realistically killable content. Those listed above aren't doable until Kunark is released.

[guineapig]

Thanks, and yes edited.

[Lazortag]

I'm pretty sure he meant realistically killable content. Those listed above aren't doable until Kunark is released.

Some guild should totally try killing them. With a big enough zerg force I'm sure it could be done.

[guineapig]

Some guild should totally try killing them. With a big enough zerg force I'm sure it could be done.

Most of those mobs listed can single round players and pets and will resist virtually every spell available. Don't think it hasn't been contemplated though... but not with zerg tactics.

[Trimm]

Some ideas have been tossed around, and guilds have talked about taking them down together for sure. Problem is, those mobs have such insane DPS right now that it would take 70+ people to even begin to attempt them. And assuming you could kill them, it would be a one-time thing just to say its been done.

I consider Spiroc lord the top boss in classic right now because hes tough as nails, but not so crazy that he can't be killed on a regular basis. Also, if he happens to spawn with 2 Spiroc Wingblades (that I believe he his holding right now) his dps goes up by at least another 50%. Getting hit for 350 damage 6 times at once is no fun.

[hedbonker]

Rotations on mobs like VS will just suck IMO. 6 month waiting list to get that mob is what we will see...

:(

[girth]

Also, if he happens to spawn with 2 Spiroc Wingblades (that I believe he his holding right now) his dps goes up by at least another 50%. Getting hit for 350 damage 6 times at once is no fun.

Can you explain please? He hits the same amount with a weapon or not no? Least with us he did. We killed him at least twice dual wielding wingblades and never noticed an increase in dps. Then again he was hitting for almost 500 then, maybe something changed when they fixed him.

[Skope]

Can you explain please? He hits the same amount with a weapon or not no? Least with us he did. We killed him at least twice dual wielding wingblades and never noticed an increase in dps. Then again he was hitting for almost 500 then, maybe something changed when they fixed him.

Twice the amount of rounds per attack (and parsed data to prove it). To boot the two times we've downed double-bladed spiroc lord he was wearing a 16% belt and a 21% belt. That definitely didn't help...

[Trimm]

Twice the amount of rounds per attack (and parsed data to prove it). To boot the two times we've downed double-bladed spiroc lord he was wearing a 16% belt and a 21% belt. That definitely didn't help...

Correct. When he is holding one blade, he attacks for up to 4 attacks (quad) per round like normal. However, when he is holding a second blade, he also quads with that one. He averages 6 hits per round of attacks, up to a max of 8 we have seen.

I feel sorry for our clerics :)

[Gwence]

if that's true it should be fixed, no mob should double quad like that, especially if they dont have the flurry skill.

[girth]

if that's true it should be fixed, no mob should double quad like that, especially if they dont have the flurry skill.

I thought that Sky mobs didn't really quad, they just increased haste or something to make it look like it.

I could be way off.

[Skope]

I thought that Sky mobs didn't really quad, they just increased haste or something to make it look like it.

I could be way off.

I heard that too, but I can tell you there's a significant difference between 1 or two bladed SL, which is why the haste alone doesn't make too much sense. Whether it's classic or not I haven't been able to determine thru digging. The insta-pop is correct, but whether he wielded 2 and how it affected the DPS output I haven't been able to dig up and frankly have no idea.

[girth]

Full name : The Spiroc Lord
Level : 63
Race : Aviak
Class : Ranger
Main faction : General KOS
Health points : 36258
Damages : 175 to 350
Attack speed : Normal (100%)
Average melee damages : 618 per round
Special attacks : Flurry, Summon, Rampage, Enrage, Triple Attack

http://axclassic.com/~tdayin/TRinfo/npc.php?id=71012

Is he even supposed to quad? Guessing this was a later version though since he Flurry/Rampages?

[Stefen]

If you're refering to Triple Attack, Girth, that's an ability monks, warriors, and rangers get. It's an innate chance to hit three times with your primary hand, raising the total number of potential melee strikes in any given round from 4 to 5.

Yes, the mob is meant to quad.

[Skope]

Yea girth, I've seen that. Unfortunately I have no recollection as to whether he ever wielded two at once nor just how it impacted the DPS output. I know after a while he was given the sword in hand on every pop, prior to that it was a rare to see him wielding the sword at all. There's just not much info on posky in general, it was one of those zones that most people avoided altogether unless they needed to grab an epic piece.

[Stefen]

The issue here is the time interval variances for content release between live servers and p99. On live, Air was released a few short months before Kunark. The mid-upper islands were never intended* to be killed by level 50 raids. The entire zone was planned with Kunark level players in mind.

On p99, that interval has already been exceeded and will seemingly grow much more. Instead of looking for ways to convince developers to dumb-down content that isn't meant to be killable, learn some patience. If you think this is bad, you'll never survive the interval between Kunark and Velious. With the massive amount of content that Velious brings, I predict at least* a solid two year wait after Kunark, without a significant influx of dev resources.

[girth]

If you're refering to Triple Attack, Girth, that's an ability monks, warriors, and rangers get. It's an innate chance to hit three times with your primary hand, raising the total number of potential melee strikes in any given round from 4 to 5.

Yes, the mob is meant to quad.

Oh yeaah. In that case, damn he sure gets an upgrade later.

[girth]

Instead of looking for ways to convince developers to dumb-down content that isn't meant to be killable, learn some patience.

Who is that directed at? Nobody asked for content to be easier, just fixed.

[Skope]

I think you're mistaken... I'm not asking for it to be dumbed down, just clarifying what's been stated and asked. If you look at the posky quests and loot table there's clearly 2 different tiers: first tier being islands 1 thru 4 (slight overlap on 5) and the second tier being 5-8. The first tier of posky is designed with the intention of having it be accomplished pre-kunark, the latter portion is for level 60.

Noble dojorn is lumped in with the 5-8 tier with respect to the quests but 1-4 when considering the difficulty of the encounter and difficulty of getting to the island.

[Scrooge]

http://axclassic.com/~tdayin/TRinfo/npc.php?id=71012

Interesting site!

[Trimm]

Yeah Stefen, I think for once we're all actually in agreement here. I think its awesome that there is content that is pretty much untouchable right now. I'm eager to try it out once Kunark rolls around.

Regarding Spiroc Lord, he is hard, not everyone can kill him right now, but he is defiantly doable. I don't think he should be toned down per-say, just maybe have the dual-wield DPS looked at.

[Grod]

Content is obviously going to be easier here then it was on live for a magnitude of reasons. For one, some spells are the updated versions of the originals that were improved over time and not quite classic even though they are the same spells even if it's minor like a longer buff duration, improved pets, "fixes" that weren't in on live such as mob push, not really seeing the same low hp agro that live had etc and lastly superior knowledge as the content is old for most people.

One thing that was "cool" about EQ though is that it let you think outside of the box. For example, you could kite a lot of mobs around and hold agro on all of them if you /dueled with someone to get yourself down to 5% life prior to engaging and removed hp regen. Now, you obviously could not get hit, but with bard speed or SoW and if you did it flawlessly you could potentially have one person control all of the adds in a raid encounter when most guilds required 5-20 to do the same thing. All you had to do was something small like shoot an arrow to get on the hate list and the mob would be locked on you. The low HP agro would keep it all on the kiter regardless of how many heals the Healers were casting. In this method one person could control what normally took 5-25 people to do and was especially useful in outdoor areas with non-casting adds.

Another "outside of the box" was pre-kunark I used to pull the higher islands in Air to the lower islands using ressing. Basically you put a corpse on the island you are on, then port to the higher island where the mobs are and get a res box up on your screen. You agro the mobs and jump off the island towards the previous island and accept the res before you finish falling to the bottom, you have someone on the island below pull them as they pass before they reset and it splits and pulls the mobs to the previous island. It made it far easier to break into the more difficult islands because you could single pull them and not have to worry about adds or tight positioning on a new island not to mention it was far easier to recover from a wipe. It's just the beauty of Everquest that you don't see anymore in new games.

[Kassel]

Rez box training on Sullon Zek is one of my fav memorys of EQ LIVE

[girth]

Another "outside of the box" was pre-kunark I used to pull the higher islands in Air to the lower islands using ressing. Basically you put a corpse on the island you are on, then port to the higher island where the mobs are and get a res box up on your screen. You agro the mobs and jump off the island towards the previous island and accept the res before you finish falling to the bottom, you have someone on the island below pull them as they pass before they reset and it splits and pulls the mobs to the previous island. It made it far easier to break into the more difficult islands because you could single pull them and not have to worry about adds or tight positioning on a new island not to mention it was far easier to recover from a wipe. It's just the beauty of Everquest that you don't see anymore in new games.

Rez pulling was nerfed on here for some weird reason. It was an intentional change though never put in patch notes IIRC.

[azeth]

just maybe have the dual-wield DPS looked at.

preferably the wing blade drop rate looked at :p I'm pretty positive his dual wielding dps wasn't a problem in classic as the wingblade should be the rarest of loots, indeed.

[Rhambuk]

preferably the wing blade drop rate looked at :p I'm pretty positive his dual wielding dps wasn't a problem in classic as the wingblade should be the rarest of loots, indeed.

I thought they tuned the rarity of the sword when epics were released to increase the difficulty for wars, for some...unnecessary reason.

It would be nice if they made it a bit rarer, no more rangerblades pls, and wtf is with lord dropping lesser boss loot weight of the gods? necro bracer? weak

[azeth]

wtf is with lord dropping lesser boss loot weight of the gods? necro bracer? weak


^ THIS

[Molitoth]

Yeah Stefen, I think for once we're all actually in agreement here. I think its awesome that there is content that is pretty much untouchable right now. I'm eager to try it out once Kunark rolls around.

Regarding Spiroc Lord, he is hard, not everyone can kill him right now, but he is defiantly doable. I don't think he should be toned down per-say, just maybe have the dual-wield DPS looked at.

IMO he should not drop the wingblade everytime, and should drop x2 loots from the tier2 loot tables. It sucks spending all that time to kill him for wingblade rots and 1 item that sometimes can't even be used... (druid belt?)

[girth]

According to: http://axclassic.com/~tdayin/TRinfo/npc.php?id=71012

He doesn't even have the chance to dual wield them.

[guineapig]

According to: http://axclassic.com/~tdayin/TRinfo/npc.php?id=71012

He shouldn't even have the chance to dual wield them.

Fixed.

However that link also includes a slot for spells which isn't in the classic version of this mob.

[nilbog]

axclassic for data? if you wanted a copy of a public eqemu database, there are 2 options... peq or axclassic.

That isn't a source of anything, just someone's eqemu allakhazam clone page.

[nilbog]

Here's a magelo link: http://eq.magelo.com/npc/58247

[azeth]

Here's a magelo link: http://eq.magelo.com/npc/58247

Post classic adjusted drop rate for the Wingblade, we all know it we just can't find the date.

[Ravhin]

Indeed, was just about to say you're just looking at (untuned) public eqemu DB's. The whole idea with sky on p99 is that it was worked on a considerable amount to tune it to classic (exclusively by Xzerion, as far as I know) thus is different from any eqemu info source you will find.

Of course Xzerion could chime in here. Also, PoS on Live was never revamped (other than loot tables?), correct? Thus for how things "should be" we just need some current information from live - who has a lvl 100 player or whatever nonsense who can go to sky and see what is what?

[nilbog]

(exclusively by Xzerion, as far as I know)

Everyone put work into airplane, but it was tuned by Spirell.

[girth]

Indeed, was just about to say you're just looking at (untuned) public eqemu DB's. The whole idea with sky on p99 is that it was worked on a considerable amount to tune it to classic (exclusively by Xzerion, as far as I know) thus is different from any eqemu info source you will find.

Of course Xzerion could chime in here. Also, PoS on Live was never revamped (other than loot tables?), correct? Thus for how things "should be" we just need some current information from live - who has a lvl 100 player or whatever nonsense who can go to sky and see what is what?

They made changes in Sky, such as when they made the azarack that spawns Protector not be static, which it's not on here atm, think it should be according to a few sky guides.

an Azarack
Number on island: 9 (8 wanderers, 1 static)
Level: 53
Aggressive: Yes
Assist: Yes
Hits for: 190 (Static 220)
HPs: 12259
Resists: half is resistant to Cold, other half is resistant to Fire
Specials: proc Whirlbolt (Levitate, Root, 400 DoT); Killing the static Azarack spawn the Protector of Sky


Protector of Sky
Number on island: 1
Level: 55
Aggressive: Yes
Assist: Yes
Hits for: 290
HPs:
Resists:
Specials: proc Whirlbolt (Levitate, Root, 400 DoT); spawns when static Azarack is killed; killing him spawns Sirran the Lunatic

http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=sky

Another source noted may? I think of 2006 when they changed island 2.


They also added Kunark spells/abilities to some of the bosses, as well as letting some bosses drop kunark spells.

[Skope]

They made changes in Sky, such as 2006 when they made the azarack that spawns Protector not be static, which it's not on here atm, think it should be according to a few sky guides.

They also added Kunark spells/abilities to some of the bosses, as well as letting some bosses drop kunark spells.

Yea, it's inherently a zone that's complicated to emulate, particularly when you take into account chronological fixes/updates. Damn near impossible to find data that dates back to '99 and the subsequent fixes afterward.

We've reported the bug where the trash on 5 wasn't attached to the vanquisher death where you'd kill the arbiter and the other dude (whatever his name is) and they didn't instantly respawn, even though the Vanq that's attached to these 2 was still up.

As for Spiroc specifically, I honestly have no idea when the fix was where the droprate for his wingblade was increased, but prior to that it was pretty damn rare (going by recollection). Whether he ever wielded 2 blades at once and how that changed his DPS output i honestly have absolutely no idea =P

[Grod]

If Rez box pulling was nerfed here it makes absolutely no sense because that was considered a valid tactic on live servers. GM's watched us do it and never said a word about it.

[girth]

If Rez box pulling was nerfed here it makes absolutely no sense because that was considered a valid tactic on live servers. GM's watched us do it and never said a word about it.

Agree 100%

[Lagaidh]

Okay- I've read the first two pages of this tripe and it's the same story it has always been.

I understand the perspective of might makes right, but when the oldest guilds with good players will always have the advantage, does the thought ever occur to share game content?

Purely from a humanistic perspective: is it okay to always cockblock part of the game from the rest of the community because you can?

I'm seriously asking. I'm also looking for a different explanation than A) We can so we do B) Beat us if you want it.

How long does it take the top guilds' repeated clearings of these high-end targets before the members have what they want?

I'm not trying to bait anyone. I came from a rotation server where the top guild contained unimaginable pricks, but even they agreed to the rotation scheme after a while.

I'm trying to understand a side of the coin I've never been on. By the time I was in a hardcore raid guild in live, we were a good expansion behind in end game, so we didn't bump into this much.

[Duie]

103 in Fear Wensday night

87 in Hate thursday night

No Bosses up in either .

You say you like the compitition and yet Every top guild gets to the spawn point, Buffs up, camps, then waits for a phone call or a tweet (which is real classic EQ right there) to log on and kill in 5 min. Mobilization you say? that is just figruing out which alt is at that particular spawn point.

I wanna know one thing though. Do any of you still accually play the game?

[Aadill]

I wanna know one thing though. Do any of you still accually play the game?

Personally, I am maxed level 50 and have no quests to do to further my character. I can't solo for cash, and I have a few friends that I used to be able to PL but now cannot (because I'm an effing ranger and they're too high level for me to heal/DS/whatever). I don't want to make an alt in classic, or even Kunark for that matter, and therefore have no other characters to play.

What do I do when I log in? I like to swing at things that could kill me in one hit (insert ranger joke here) and do my best to play my role as a guild member of Dark Ascension.

Yes, I play the game. Is it the same game you play? Maybe, but it doesn't sound like it. When EQ first came out everyone was in so much awe of the game. I have to give a nod out to the guy that recorded that youtube series about "just starting everquest on P99," the awe-filled dialogue and misadventures of a newbie are what we all love and remember really hit home how great this server has presented itself as something that could totally corner a niche market in the video game world. However, it's been said again and again that the people who know about this server probably played EQ at some point or another - I've run through all these zones and died in all of them. I know what alt I want to make when the time comes, what quests to do, what gear to get... it's not like it was back in the day, but I still enjoy it because I enjoy advancing my character as well as others. The game is a bit different when you already know what happens when the next expansion comes out. I still play it because I love it.

How do you play the game? I hope it's just as enjoyable :)

[Shiftin]

How long does it take the top guilds' repeated clearings of these high-end targets before the members have what they want?

I'm not trying to bait anyone. I came from a rotation server where the top guild contained unimaginable pricks, but even they agreed to the rotation scheme after a while.

I'm trying to understand a side of the coin I've never been on. By the time I was in a hardcore raid guild in live, we were a good expansion behind in end game, so we didn't bump into this much.

The state of the server now is such that people can fly to 50, get all / most of their planes/god loot and be bored in 4-6 months. People get to 50, get all of their stuff and get bored because kunark isn't around yet, so they either directly or indirectly quit out of boredom.

The raiding guilds then have to replace them with new folks to stay at a functional number for raiding current content with very sparse drops (see a below), content we are waiting to be fixed (b), and to be ready for the mystery day kunark goes live.

(a) Dragon haste items / crystaline spear are really amazing items from dragons that tons of melee in IB/DA/Div need. Vox Cloak is uber as hell. Robe / clicky from CT have been rare as well and are amazing. If these mobs dropped 6 items per kill, it's conceivable we wouldn't be fighting so hard over them, but some of these items remain best in slot until you start getting epics / killing trakanon, etc. As it is, these mobs drop 2-3 items per kill from a loot table of 8-12 items, some of which are barely worth having. Since they spawn once a week instead of the possibly multiple times/week on live, there are tons of folks who have been around a while still in need of this gear.


(b) We'd love to spend more days in sky, but there are mechanics up there right now that are notably broken that keep folks from advancing. It's not awesome to have a dozen people summonned under the world and drop out of the zone as soon as you engage anything on bee island, destroying the keys that they have been meticulously refreshing for months.


Long story short, there are a lot more 50s with much higher turnover to equip on this server than there were in live at this stage of the game, and loot enters the world slower for a number of reasons.

[Messianic]

Okay- I've read the first two pages of this tripe and it's the same story it has always been.

I understand the perspective of might makes right, but when the oldest guilds with good players will always have the advantage, does the thought ever occur to share game content?

Purely from a humanistic perspective: is it okay to always cockblock part of the game from the rest of the community because you can?

I'm seriously asking. I'm also looking for a different explanation than A) We can so we do B) Beat us if you want it.

How long does it take the top guilds' repeated clearings of these high-end targets before the members have what they want?

I'm not trying to bait anyone. I came from a rotation server where the top guild contained unimaginable pricks, but even they agreed to the rotation scheme after a while.

I'm trying to understand a side of the coin I've never been on. By the time I was in a hardcore raid guild in live, we were a good expansion behind in end game, so we didn't bump into this much.

How do you distribute limited amounts of resources among many groups/individuals vying for them?

Whoever is willing to do the most work to earn the resource should acquire it. That's what is at play here.

If people agree on a rotation - that's fine. But if they don't, it must be merit (and merit can mean merely how much someone is willing to poopsock for it) to be fair. People shouldn't be forced into a system of rotation (which amounts to a yielding of their freedom of action) if they would prefer to compete.

Alternatively, being in a system of merit is merely nature, or "how things are," so people aren't forced into that system by allowing that system to exist - it's just the way things inevitably are.

As resources become less limited (i.e. Kunark), the problem will dissipate rapidly.

[korrowan]

I wanna see a rotation put in just so I can read all the drama it will create.

[Lagaidh]

How do you distribute limited amounts of resources among many groups/individuals vying for them?

Whoever is willing to do the most work to earn the resource should acquire it. That's what is at play here.

If people agree on a rotation - that's fine. But if they don't, it must be merit (and merit can mean merely how much someone is willing to poopsock for it) to be fair. People shouldn't be forced into a system of rotation (which amounts to a yielding of their freedom of action) if they would prefer to compete.

Alternatively, being in a system of merit is merely nature, or "how things are," so people aren't forced into that system by allowing that system to exist - it's just the way things inevitably are.

As resources become less limited (i.e. Kunark), the problem will dissipate rapidly.

How is that not "We can so we do"?

[Lagaidh]

The state of the server now is such that people can fly to 50, get all / most of their planes/god loot and be bored in 4-6 months. People get to 50, get all of their stuff and get bored because kunark isn't around yet, so they either directly or indirectly quit out of boredom.

The raiding guilds then have to replace them with new folks to stay at a functional number for raiding current content with very sparse drops (see a below), content we are waiting to be fixed (b), and to be ready for the mystery day kunark goes live.

(a) Dragon haste items / crystaline spear are really amazing items from dragons that tons of melee in IB/DA/Div need. Vox Cloak is uber as hell. Robe / clicky from CT have been rare as well and are amazing. If these mobs dropped 6 items per kill, it's conceivable we wouldn't be fighting so hard over them, but some of these items remain best in slot until you start getting epics / killing trakanon, etc. As it is, these mobs drop 2-3 items per kill from a loot table of 8-12 items, some of which are barely worth having. Since they spawn once a week instead of the possibly multiple times/week on live, there are tons of folks who have been around a while still in need of this gear.


(b) We'd love to spend more days in sky, but there are mechanics up there right now that are notably broken that keep folks from advancing. It's not awesome to have a dozen people summonned under the world and drop out of the zone as soon as you engage anything on bee island, destroying the keys that they have been meticulously refreshing for months.


Long story short, there are a lot more 50s with much higher turnover to equip on this server than there were in live at this stage of the game, and loot enters the world slower for a number of reasons.

Thanks. I can see that.

[Messianic]

How is that not "We can so we do"?

You seem to think that's not a valid reason and never explained why

[Lagaidh]

Man. This thread is just awful. I like it better when I can just assume folks are selfish spoiled brats instead of watching dueling hissy fits.

I'm going to keep reading (p18). It's like staring at a car wreck. I... can't... fight my... genetic... *urg*... programming!

[Lagaidh]

You seem to think that's not a valid reason and never explained why

I said I can understand the perspective of might makes right, but do the folks in power (with the advantages of being on the server earlier) ever even think about sharing that part of the game?

Personally, I don't think it's valid. My core inner self would like to be an idealist, no matter how foolish the fancy. In my perfect world:

Folks wouldn't be so greedy or take things so incredibly seriously that it is their stated mission to keep other players down simply for the sake of remaining the "best" as stated in this thread.

I just think that's incredibly sad.

The realist in me knows this won't change, and knowing that, I can gain solace from the fact that I don't have to enter that arena if I don't want to.

I guess I'm just shocked that people are so invested in their own pursuits in a fantasy world that they will knowingly and willfully block out folks from experiencing the same content at some point... just to say they're number one.

[toyodafenninro]

I said I can understand the perspective of might makes right, but do the folks in power (with the advantages of being on the server earlier) ever even think about sharing that part of the game?

Personally, I don't think it's valid. My core inner self would like to be an idealist, no matter how foolish the fancy. In my perfect world:

Folks wouldn't be so greedy or take things so incredibly seriously that it is their stated mission to keep other players down simply for the sake of remaining the "best" as stated in this thread.

I just think that's incredibly sad.

The realist in me knows this won't change, and knowing that, I can gain solace from the fact that I don't have to enter that arena if I don't want to.

I guess I'm just shocked that people are so invested in their own pursuits in a fantasy world that they will knowingly and willfully block out folks from experiencing the same content at some point... just to say they're number one.

Whether for good or bad, a core component of Everquest has (and always will be) the comparison between one's toon and other toons and one's guild and other guilds.

So powerful is this desire that we, as players, are willing to camp items, rush spawns, engage in dramaz...

No reason to be shocked. EQ is a multiplayer game in which one shows off the results of their individual pursuits (or guild pursuits) to outsiders.

[Messianic]

I said I can understand the perspective of might makes right, but do the folks in power (with the advantages of being on the server earlier) ever even think about sharing that part of the game?

It's not "might makes right." It's "I have more free time which I am willing to devote to EQ." We're not talking about fascism or ends justifying means here - we're talking about something more akin to one athlete spending far more of his time and sacrificing more of his life toward a particular goal than another (allowing talent to be equal), and therefore receiving the award as a result.

Personally, I don't think it's valid. My core inner self would like to be an idealist, no matter how foolish the fancy. In my perfect world: Folks wouldn't be so greedy or take things so incredibly seriously that it is their stated mission to keep other players down simply for the sake of remaining the "best" as stated in this thread.

That's how you view the ideal world. And it has errors - first, "Greed" is a worthless word for all intents and purposes. What about those who want the rotation? Aren't they "Greedy" for an encounter as well, they just go about it by trying to force people into a system they designed, as opposed to sacrificing more time to "be there first"?

Second, "taking things seriously" is entirely subjective and people will assign different values to different experiences. No one's valuation is more valid than anyone else's, regardless how steeped in self-morality it is.

Third, those who "compete" are not "keeping others down" as a matter of their intent - Does a gold medalist "keep the silver medalist down?" It has nothing to do with some silly idea of oppression or suppression - it's merely the fact that they have chosen to devote more of their resources to an online game and do so with the expectation that in most cases, they will receive a greater reward than those who don't.

The ideal world, in my opinion, isn't a bunch of carebears sitting around distributing rewards based on "it's your turn," when Carebear #1 is the one putting in all the work to acquire the items to sell at market or equip those close to him. There are lots of things I don't like that are side-effects of a pure meritocracy, but the essential core is still "valid."

I guess I'm just shocked that people are so invested in their own pursuits in a fantasy world that they will knowingly and willfully block out folks from experiencing the same content at some point... just to say they're number one.

It may not even be to say "they're number one." That's an assumption. Perhaps each time they do an encounter that they've already experienced they wish to be able to master the encounter, and show others how to conquer said encounter more effectively in a guild setting. That's more likely the case - you just don't hear those people in R/F/NSFW because they're busy enjoying the game instead of complaining constantly or causing drama for giggles.

But all of this is based on your subjective valuation (coupled with unsubstantiated assumptions about the source of that valuation, i.e. "i need my self-worth validated by killing inny 85 times") of certain experiences and certain encounters - and it's not binding on others.

The fact of that matter is the type of enjoyment of the game varies, and it's simply more fair to allow those who are willing to sacrifice more to get more out of the game. Again, if the relevant organizations make agreements to "cap" the sacrifice that anyone has to put forth to experience those high-end encounters, so be it.

[Taluvill]

Personally, I am maxed level 50 and have no quests to do to further my character. I can't solo for cash, and I have a few friends that I used to be able to PL but now cannot (because I'm an effing ranger and they're too high level for me to heal/DS/whatever). I don't want to make an alt in classic, or even Kunark for that matter, and therefore have no other characters to play.

What do I do when I log in? I like to swing at things that could kill me in one hit (insert ranger joke here) and do my best to play my role as a guild member of Dark Ascension.

Yes, I play the game. Is it the same game you play? Maybe, but it doesn't sound like it. When EQ first came out everyone was in so much awe of the game. I have to give a nod out to the guy that recorded that youtube series about "just starting everquest on P99," the awe-filled dialogue and misadventures of a newbie are what we all love and remember really hit home how great this server has presented itself as something that could totally corner a niche market in the video game world. However, it's been said again and again that the people who know about this server probably played EQ at some point or another - I've run through all these zones and died in all of them. I know what alt I want to make when the time comes, what quests to do, what gear to get... it's not like it was back in the day, but I still enjoy it because I enjoy advancing my character as well as others. The game is a bit different when you already know what happens when the next expansion comes out. I still play it because I love it.

How do you play the game? I hope it's just as enjoyable :)

Im almost in the same position as Aadill here. Everything he said is true. Even though I only have a few sky items (I'm 1 item away from a few of them = P ) I could get to further my character, I still play the game because I love the game and the way that it was designed. For me, Its about being the best, and the fact that I never was able to experience this "raid" part of Everquest because I was 8-9 at the time that classic came out and that I began playing this with my dad. It's fun to come back and be able to "Master the Encounters" as some of you have said, but even though this is an emu, there is enough built up/invested at the higher end guilds to make this feel like being the best means half a shit. I think this comes from having people on your side of the battlefield - and the other side for sure - that feel the same way that I do. Most don't play alts, and just push to be the best at what they are every time they log in.

If the server goes poof because of sony or some other unexplainable reason, at least I had fun while I could, and at least I didn't half ass what might be most of our last shots at reliving this classic experience. Sony isnt going to do it now on live, and neither will Everquest Next.

[mr.miketastic]

Quote: "It's not "might makes right." It's "I have more free time which I am willing to devote to EQ." We're not talking about fascism or ends justifying means here - we're talking about something more akin to one athlete spending far more of his time and sacrificing more of his life toward a particular goal than another (allowing talent to be equal), and therefore receiving the award as a result."


This actually made me laugh a bit. The reality though, is that the efforts of the athlete almost always result in a tangible benefit. One example would be Tiger woods. Tiger has more money than Croesus, and apparently got more ass than a toilet seat (the result of which was not so beneficial). Another would be the health gained from a strict physical regimen. The irony is comparing people sitting for hours in front of a computer screen vying for ones and zeroes, sedentary, to people who do something for wealth, health and pussy.

[Scrooge]

There is much more to EQ than the grind, the gearing, the farming and even the raiding. When you're ready to think outside the box, that's when the game starts to get really interesting.

The idea of gear making you a better player than another, is quite silly.

[Ponden]

I can't believe this is still going on.

[Kastro]

Just use the VZTZ rotation system... Flag all players who are in a Raid zone with a Boss up for PVP. Problem solved. Make all Planes FFA PVP zones....

Works quite well imo... there is none of this "poopsocking" or whatever it is you are complaining about... and yes all the shitty players can form a guild to try on take out the more skilled players...


But if You guys dont want to get red liquid on your shiney armors... you can all form one big organization an live by this nifty motto:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

So do all you cna and work together to drop the bosses... and give the loot to the player that NEEDS it most!

[guineapig]

There is much more to EQ than the grind, the gearing, the farming and even the raiding. When you're ready to think outside the box, that's when the game starts to get really interesting.

The idea of gear making you a better player than another, is quite silly.

My thoughts exactly.



Personally I prefer leveling new characters. It's a great way for me to learn about the classes that I had no experience with on live. Rogue and Wizard for example I always avoided because I felt that they were so limited in their utility, but I am really starting to enjoy the little tricks and quirks that I never experienced before.

I basically avoid buying and farming gear completely now which gives me more time to level up characters. This will give me more options for groups as well as soloing once Kunark is released. While the people that were so busy trying to get the very best gear now will just have to start the process all over again in a few months... That doesn't sound like much fun to me.

But hey, everyone has their own opinions. There's something in the game for everyone:
Some people enjoy taking on real challenging content while other people prefer racing others to raid targets.
Some people want lots of alts, some people want lots of platinum.
What ever floats your boat.

[Scrooge]

Some people enjoy taking on real challenging content while other people prefer racing others to raid targets.

Ditto, right on the money. Those with an open mind, will (almost) always see more than one angle.

[Qenaden]

Just use the VZTZ rotation system... Flag all players who are in a Raid zone with a Boss up for PVP. Problem solved. Make all Planes FFA PVP zones....

Works quite well imo... there is none of this "poopsocking" or whatever it is you are complaining about... and yes all the shitty players can form a guild to try on take out the more skilled players...


But if You guys dont want to get red liquid on your shiney armors... you can all form one big organization an live by this nifty motto:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

So do all you cna and work together to drop the bosses... and give the loot to the player that NEEDS it most!

Word. This seems like a great solution.

Also, WTF is poopsocking? Sounds like an unfortunate stocking stuffer.

[Messianic]

The irony is comparing people sitting for hours in front of a computer screen vying for ones and zeroes, sedentary, to people who do something for wealth, health...

Since you didn't actually attack the analogy or refute it, you admit it's valid, despite your subjective valuations of "tangible benefit."

The scale and circumstances are different, but the form is the same.