Upcoming change to class epics

[Shjade]

The devs probably "intended" for Ice Comet, the badass Wizard spell for its time, to not have the same spell message as a level 1 DD, or have the same particle effects as a level 1 DD. But hey, working as intended!

This allows wizards to be stealthy in pvp, obv.

[4WOFURY]

FWIW - http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2004-1.html

Do a ctrl+f for "epic".

I understand this isn't during the classic timeline, and isn't talking about a class that's active during our timeline, but there isn't a lot of evidence about what level epics were doable at (If you find some, please post it up. Otherwise, I know the flaws of my post, no need to reiterate them, this isn't RnF)

But the February 10, 2004 notes state that:
- The beastlord epic weapon will no longer "proc" for wielders below the 46th level.

To which we can conclude that the epic was wieldable at levels lower than 46.

It also states on March 23, 2004 that:
-You will now need to be of at least the 50th level to complete the beastlord epic.

And one can draw an assumption that other class epics required the 50th level to complete as well.

I remember doing the Rogue epic quest on live and multi-questing it to others, but I can not remember specifically the level of the recipients.

I do remember that the Rogue epic was especially great because it was a worn effect that worked at low levels where as the other epics with clickables wouldn't work until higher levels.

This is all to be taken with a grain of salt, and to imply that if any change is made, it should be that the epic turn ins should require a level of 50, rather than an undeniably unclassic change such as a required level to wield; at least until further research can be done.

[heartbrand]

It takes a day to get level 46. What are people crying about?

[fastboy21]

Wait...

Does this mean that Nirgon has been right all this while?

/ducks

[keysmash]

Ah, yes, level 1s with epics. That, out of all things, is what I remember most about classic EQ. Without that it is a completely different game!

[fastboy21]

It takes a day to get level 46. What are people crying about?

because the fun in twinking to the balls out level is in the pre-50 game. when you're glistening in hot armor and an epic at lvl 10 in crushbone you're hawt. when you do the same thing at lvl 55 in KC, you're just another root rotting annoying shaman.

[Droog007]

Can anyone give me a reason, other than leveling faster, why not having an epic at low levels is game breaking? Help me understand this. Really.

I can see the red ganking noobs. But what else is there that makes having an epic at low levels important?

It's important for the same reason this server is important. It went something like this in 1999....

[Droog007]

You still don't understand. My point was that the people complaining about this aren't the people who supported Luclin removals. And when I asked for names to be pointed out there was no reply. Which only supports my argument. Though, even if people did support those model removals and complained about this, it wouldn't matter. No Luclin models is classic. No epic rogue twinks isn't classic.

Though, if we are making changes to epics based on intent, can we make VS spawn faster, sooner?

I am one of those people. Directly above this post (the one I am quoting) is another one of those people. Removing Luclin models made the server MORE classic. This change is making the server LESS classic (at least from a technical standpoint). I'll admit that epic twinks were rare on live - but not impossible.

As many people have said, making this change doesn't fix anything on THIS server ... it's already well-trashed from a wealth imbalance standpoint.

edit: Alright damnit... your posts are confusing. I just re-read what I quoted and it seems like we are violently agreeing.

[Kutsumo]

This isn't the first custom change on this box and it probably won't be the last. Sometimes non-classic is the lesser evil.

[Uthgaard]

Yeah I had a cleric with epic at 41. Could definitely equip. Just couldn't click until 46. Got much hate for both reasons.

[Nocsucow]

Yeah I had a cleric with epic at 41. Could definitely equip. Just couldn't click until 46. Got much hate for both reasons.

Hey bud!!!!! Hope all is well

[jaybone]

Yeah I had a cleric with epic at 41. Could definitely equip. Just couldn't click until 46. Got much hate for both reasons.

You had to be 50 to click the epic???????????

[Uthgaard]

Not the cleric epic. I was rezzing people with the 96% rez before I could manually cast the 90% rez

[jaybone]

Not the cleric epic. I was rezzing people with the 96% rez before I could manually cast the 90% rez

Not on this server.

[Rararboker]

This sort of works out. Was the kick in the butt I needed to figure out my rogues situation. Up to lvl 39 from 23 now.

[Messie]

Not the cleric epic. I was rezzing people with the 96% rez before I could manually cast the 90% rez

So are you saying clerics who have had their Mq here pre 50 should have been able to click their epic ?! I never realized that in live, as there were much less MQs

[Aviann]

I am one of those people. Directly above this post (the one I am quoting) is another one of those people. Removing Luclin models made the server MORE classic. This change is making the server LESS classic (at least from a technical standpoint). I'll admit that epic twinks were rare on live - but not impossible.

As many people have said, making this change doesn't fix anything on THIS server ... it's already well-trashed from a wealth imbalance standpoint.

edit: Alright damnit... your posts are confusing. I just re-read what I quoted and it seems like we are violently agreeing.

There were no epics in 99, but regardless. I can say for a fact that the rogue epic, at least toward the very end of Velious, was a required level 50 to have Stanos successfully do the turn in for your dagger. He ate my pieces at level 48, which was also a reason behind me rerolling my rogue to vah shir when Luclin dropped. I had a GM refuse to give me the items back who was glad to tell me why they were eaten.

Only thing I can find on the subject is heresay thoughts and patch quotes about the beastlord epic. I just know the above 100% through experience... a really crappy experience.

[pathius41]

There were no epics in 99, but regardless. I can say for a fact that the rogue epic, at least toward the very end of Velious, was a required level 50 to have Stanos successfully do the turn in for your dagger. He ate my pieces at level 48, which was also a reason behind me rerolling my rogue to vah shir when Luclin dropped. I had a GM refuse to give me the items back who was glad to tell me why they were eaten.

Only thing I can find on the subject is heresay thoughts and patch quotes about the beastlord epic. I just know the above 100% through experience... a really crappy experience.

That funny because my rogue on live had his epic right at level 46, he was created after PoP.

[Uthgaard]

Not on this server.

I'm talking about on live.

So are you saying clerics who have had their Mq here pre 50 should have been able to click their epic ?! I never realized that in live, as there were much less MQs

It wasn't an MQ. Everything about the cleric epic is freely open and accessible at any level. I tagged along with a raid guild down to the chardok royals while doing /assist heals to keep their squishies alive and got the scroll. Everything else was outdoors and mildly contested but otherwise cake.

[HappyTr33z]

I've replied to this in threads of the past, but:

Personally, I'd like to create classically-inspired content and mechanics as an addition to a new server while leaving p99 as a museum quality example of classic eq. There would be no custom content on the (most classic as possible) server. Additional bugs or researched anomalies would still be corrected.

After we have prekunark-Velious as pristine as possible, the aforementioned classically-inspired content is where I would devote my free time. I do not believe any developer on staff wants to work on recreating anything past Velious.

Assuming there was a PvP server as well, I would play.

Forever.

[AzzarTheGod]

I am one of those people. Directly above this post (the one I am quoting) is another one of those people.

As many people have said, making this change doesn't fix anything on THIS server ... it's already well-trashed from a wealth imbalance standpoint.


Droog007, can you expand on that a bit? I'm interested to hear your perspective on that with just a few more details if you will indulge....

[AzzarTheGod]

This isn't the first custom change on this box and it probably won't be the last. Sometimes non-classic is the lesser evil.

Lol we explained all the negatives of this change.

Care to expound on some of these greater good benefits for us pal? :rolleyes:

Are <Asgard> all elitist and level 60 with a raid-obsessed perspective on Everquest? Or just a few of you? Really, people want to know.

[Aviann]

That funny because my rogue on live had his epic right at level 46, he was created after PoP.

My second rogue had his at 46 as well, so my best guess is that changes to epics came heavy during either Luclin or PoP to make it possible

[Kutsumo]

Lol we explained all the negatives of this change.

Care to expound on some of these greater good benefits for us pal? :rolleyes:

Are <Asgard> all elitist and level 60 with a raid-obsessed perspective on Everquest? Or just a few of you? Really, people want to know.

I do not have a level 60 character, nor do I even raid actively.

[Gustoo]

This is going to be a great change for the upcoming item loot pvp server. Good job staff.

[AzzarTheGod]

I do not have a level 60 character, nor do I even raid actively.

Cool.

What are all the classic benefits of this change? I notice you ducked that one.

Is it maybe because you have no actual substance in your position to support these changes?

"Rah rah rah you can make 46 FAST!!!" :rolleyes: Echoing Haynar's borderline troll response? Was that all you had? Assuming people want to powergame to 46???

LOL is that your big argument pal? Pack your bags and GTFO this thread, if so.

[Kutsumo]

Cool.

What are all the classic benefits of this change? I notice you ducked that one.

Is it maybe because you have no actual substance in your position to support these changes?

"Rah rah rah you can make 46 FAST!!!" :rolleyes: Echoing Haynar's borderline troll response? Was that all you had? Assuming people want to powergame to 46???

LOL is that your big argument pal? Pack your bags and GTFO this thread, if so.

You make a lot of assumptions. Is that because you love the taste of your foot?

Personally, I think the low level game will be more enjoyable without epics on twinks. It will be less frustrating for tanks and non-epic DPS might feel more relevant. I also no longer feel the urgency to get my ranger his offhand epic that I did before. It can just wait until 46.

I can't speak for the server admin, but I can see where they're coming from. There is inconsistent information on what epics and what parts of the epic were doable in classic times (according to the first post), so they can't simply "make it classic." They have to choose one compromise or another (leaving it "as is" is a compromise). In this case, "let's just make them all level 46 req" takes out all the speculation and puts everyone on even footing. Fine by me.

[wormed]

Are <Asgard> all elitist and level 60 with a raid-obsessed perspective on Everquest? Or just a few of you? Really, people want to know.

The way you somehow came to this conclusion still baffles me. I'm going to simply go with what I first assumed:

You're a retard.

[AzzarTheGod]

The way you somehow came to this conclusion still baffles me. I'm going to simply go with what I first assumed:

You're a retard.

I can't kick both of your collective asses again, Kutsumo or yourself, as the response to him dodging the fact of the matter, that epic twinks are classic, would escalate and probably end up involving some flames directed at certain members of the staff and criticizing the the hypocrisy, toxicity, and indifference of this particular change.

I made the case already. And I said I was done engaging in serious debate as it became clear players and staff were using bigoted rationale to defend removing a part of classic Everquest, Project 1999.

The change remains unjustified and confers no benefits to Project 1999.

[Kutsumo]

Azzar, maybe you should try to remember your place. You're being allowed to play here for free just like the rest of us. You're not a paying customer and you're not one of those who put in all the time and hard work to create P99. Since when did they need to justify themselves to you?

Also, here's how you can make a difference:

I see. I've been asking for 2+ years the specifics of what epics were MQable/achievable at what levels. This change, we felt gives immediate results, without having to wait for that research to be complete. If there is definitive proof in the future of which step for each epic requires a certain level, this will be reevaluated.

Feel free to find the proof for what you want.

[drktmplr12]

hyperbole

not sure what you hope to accomplish with your heated ranting. you remind me of a certain county clerk. it would be smart if you just stopped posting in this thread.

here is why they did it:


[1]There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain. [2]Several couldn't be completed until 46 or higher due to level checks on quests or certain steps involving planar zones. [3] It has been noted by the original developers that epic items were intended only for those of higher levels. [4]Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals. [Conclusion] Therefore, we are adding a level requirement of 46 to equip all epic items.

note how your opinion is not one of the items they considered.

[salimoneus]

This is a nice change and I agree more classic than how it is today. Thanks devs!

[maestrom]

TL;DR: I believe this change is inconsistent with previous staff action. I believe that to the extent that they care about being consistent and having a clear goal, they should reconsider. All that said, I fucking love this game and I won't be affected at all one bit if level 1s can't get epics. I wanna quest the epics on my chars themselves so this change would make that easier for me, maybe.

@drktmplr12

I guess the problem that some of us have with this change is, its not classic.

The problem is "classic" is weird definition. Is classic how the game was? Or is classic the rules and systems and content in place, regardless of how they were used?

Multi-questing, item recharging, clicky hammer aggro, and similar mechanics commonly used at the upper end of the game right now were absolutely possible in classic. However, most people didn't do them because they either didn't know about them, or because they never got to the level where they were useful.

Were they classic? They were possible, but super rare then. In this way, they're both classic and not classic (similar to ivandyr's hoop). They were classic because the mechanics and systems of the classic game let you do them. But they are not classic because that's not how people played back then.

So does classic mean what was possible back in 2001? Or what was done in practice back in 2001?

If you look at the history of the server, it seems like what was possible back in 2001 is "classic" with very few notable exceptions made for game breaking issues (ivandyr's hoop).

The lawyer in me pulls the rule out that Classic means classic from the game's perspective rather than the players perspective unless its game breaking given today's players, in which case a reasonable change will be made.

In this case, we don't have very strong evidence one way or another about how epics worked. Lots of credible people (Uthgaard most recently) claim that epics were equipable before level 46. Certainly they were equippable at level 45 if you got them and then deleveled, but effects might not be useable until a later date.

There are also people out there (myself included) that remembered that some NPCs would not respond to hails until you were of high enough level. This would seem to imply that there is a level 46 limit on acquiring an epic. However, there are those out there that claim that this barrier, like so many other mechanics in EQ, was not an effective barrier.

Quests were intended to be completed by one character. That's why epic mobs don't tell you to go buy an MQ. Items were never intended to be rechargeable. That's why they had a certain number of charges on them. FD banking? Epics were intended to be completeable only by a long involved individual effort with a guild behind him or her. But the level 46 talking barrier seems to have been defeated easily by MQing.

You don't remember it that way because its not how you did it. The vast majority of epics completed back then were completed without MQing large portions of it. But that doesn't mean it wasn't possible back then. And since "classic" has in the past meant the systems and mechanics of the game, rather than the players' experiences of classic, it was "classic".

Some additional, although not sufficient on its own, is the complete lack of controversy or discussion when the alleged epic requirements were removed. They had to have been removed at some point, if they were ever there, because they don't currently exist. So when were they removed? No one seems to be able to point to anything, which is surprising because if they had been removed then presumably there would be tons of discussion somewhere about it. Either on the safehouse, eqdiva, official forums, allah, somewhere. Certainly someone would have mentioned it SOMEWHERE?

So. If its not a classic system or mechanic, that is, if it was indeed POSSIBLE to get an epic at level 1 even if it didn't ever happen, then by the admin's previous approach to the server, it would be "classic" and it should stay unless it is game breaking. Twinking with insanely powerful items has always happened on every EQ server. Epics are super powerful and could potentially throw off balance at earlier levels. But so does the Frostbringer. So does Fungi. There is a long long long list of items that trivialize the 1-45 game even if you take epics out. In some cases, without the effect of the epic, epic won't even be the most desirable item to use pre-effect.

So does an epic level 1 break the game? I don't think so for a couple of reasons. Level 1 epics aren't in Seb doing OP DPS. In order to break "the game", the mechanic would have to break the game where the game matters. In the face of the 1-46 in 1 day PLs, epics simply cannot break the early game. No person with their epic can blow through the 1-46 game with as much ease as non-epic PL recipient. An epic level 1 will still have to kill the same number of orcs and gnolls as someone who doesn't have an epic, and it will probably take a similar amount of time. PL recipients skip content wholesale.

So what game is broken that isn't already broken through other flavors of heavy twinking and PLing? No epic allows a level 1 character to be useful on a dragon raid. (I keep coming back to dragon raids because that was the "breaking" that got ivandyr's hoop nerfed). I don't think level 1 epics break the game. Not in Kunark, certainly not in Velious.

So. Level 1 epics were allowable by the systems and mechanics of classic and are therefore "classic" in my interpretation of the staff's previous attitudes toward classic and therefore should not be changed unless gamebreaking. Level 1 epics do not break the game, again in my opinion, more than other options for twinking, which are not considered game breaking, and therefore I think a restriction on Level 1 epics would be inconsistent with past staff action on "classic".

All of this assumes that the staff care about being consistent in their application of classic, which I think they do.

Finally. Lol at people who say that epic level 1s offend their ideas of classic, but they're totally cool with chardok AoE groups (or AoE groups in general) for PLing nubs.

[kaev]

In the context of p99, "classic" is whatever the staff says it is. All this argumentation is nothing but a ginormous flaming load of manure. All of these self-serving "but that's not classic" crap has gotten old and stale. It's always about how you want to abuse the game with your 100% non-classic post hoc knowledge, not so much knowledge of long-lost classic EQ but knowledge of p99. You whiners have been abusing the hell out of, p99's mechanics, classic or otherwise, most of you without contributing even one legit bug report ever. P99 can never be precisely classic because so many details were never posted and archived and so much of what was posted at the time was imprecise, inaccurate, and/or ignorant speculation. Picking and choosing your personal version of :classic: for purely self-serving reasons is damned near as scummy as RMTing, half the posters in this thread are just slimy whiny hypocrites.

tl;dr
stop whining, get over it, play the game and have fun

[Tiewon Shu]

In the context of p99, "classic" is whatever the staff says it is. All this argumentation is nothing but a ginormous flaming load of manure. All of these self-serving "but that's not classic" crap has gotten old and stale. It's always about how you want to abuse the game with your 100% non-classic post hoc knowledge, not so much knowledge of long-lost classic EQ but knowledge of p99. You whiners have been abusing the hell out of, p99's mechanics, classic or otherwise, most of you without contributing even one legit bug report ever. P99 can never be precisely classic because so many details were never posted and archived and so much of what was posted at the time was imprecise, inaccurate, and/or ignorant speculation. Picking and choosing your personal version of :classic: for purely self-serving reasons is damned near as scummy as RMTing, half the posters in this thread are just slimy whiny hypocrites.

tl;dr
stop whining, get over it, play the game and have fun

Well said, and ... unblock Luclin models! :D

[drktmplr12]

maestrom,

you took the time to write it, so i took the time to read it. you bring up good points, but i have no interest in arguing the details of possible-in-classic versus happened-in-classic or anything else for that matter. im only pointing out the absurdity of the outrage.

[AzzarTheGod]

here is why they did it:



note how your opinion is not one of the items they considered.

LOL Still waiting for that same post to be made about end-game Blue raiding and item recharges across 3 separate items.

Let me know when the big raid bigots decide to nerf something that affects their own end-game. I'll be waiting. :rolleyes:

[maestrom]

maestrom,

you took the time to write it, so i took the time to read it. you bring up good points, but i have no interest in arguing the details of possible-in-classic versus happened-in-classic or anything else for that matter. im only pointing out the absurdity of the outrage.

I wasn't disputing that hehe. I was just responding to your statement that they do whatever they want (i agree) with what I think their philosophy is toward the server, and that this change is inconsistent with what I thought was their philosphy.

It's totally a close call because it falls into that possible in classic but didn't happen category and could reasonably go either way.

Its very likely that this will be a change that is good for the server, which I'm super pumped about, but which also concerns me. Prices on epic MQs will fall because there will be fewer buyers combined with the downward pressure from Velious. Hopefully, people (RMTs included) will stop keeping epic spawns on lockdown hoping to sell because there will be fewer buyers.

I have, in other places, argued for other relatively uninvasive non-classic changes that rather unambiguously make the game better. (Luclin models for those that want them, reversion of the auto-stand on cast, buff timers to name a few).

I don't think that Nilbog and crew *owe* me anything. I'm not entitled to open his brain and watch how he evaluates the server. But I think it would be fun if someone on the staff came in and said how this particular change fits into their model of "classic". I guess the closest thing we have to that is the "intent of the developers", but if we look at that hybrid exp penalties should have been taken out on day 1 because there is a developer letter that shows that hybrid exp was a bad idea and should never have been put in in the first place.

I'm going to keep enjoying the server because it's amazing and incredible and the staff does awesome work. This whole issue is pure curiosity for me. I just think that if you know someone's goals and their capabilities/constraints, you can generally predict how they are going to handle something. This development is a pretty decent departure from what I expected from the staff and I think it would be fun to learn if its a one-off or if we can incorporate it into our models and adjust expectations for the future of the server accordingly.

Of course you don't have those answers though :P Just explaining myself.

[Eliseus]

not sure what you hope to accomplish with your heated ranting. you remind me of a certain county clerk. it would be smart if you just stopped posting in this thread.

here is why they did it:



note how your opinion is not one of the items they considered.

do you mean the heated ranting of certain people that ended up with a certain county clerk in jail?

[ergo]

Its all good, you still put weapons that proc 80-140 dd at level one, but a cleric epic you still cant use till lv 50, nah we cant give you those stats...

I mean a fungi on a lv 1 isnt broken as shit, but I dont see you making those have level requirements to equip.

Either be equal in your NON-CLASSIC moves or dont do them at all after YEARS of allowing. I mean hell at least letting a cleric equip the damn thing hurts nothing.

Fix your rogue problem on red and leave blue alone. Thanks.

[AzzarTheGod]

Its all good, you still put weapons that proc 80-140 dd at level one, but a cleric epic you still cant use till lv 50, nah we cant give you those stats...

I mean a fungi on a lv 1 isnt broken a shit, but I dont see you making those have level requirements to equip.

Either be equal in your NON-CLASSIC moves or dont do them at all after YEARS of allowing. I mean hell at least letting a cleric equip the damn thing hurts nothing.

Fix your rogue problem on red and leave blue alone. Thanks.

The bigots don't seem to care. Wheres the complete heal nerfs? CH instant click raiding isn't classic either.

This is the only change I have ever taken issue with, because the reasoning is just so bizarre. "We couldn't find the info after waiting 2 years for someone to find us the classic epic implementation proof..." Mother of god, I don't even know how to respond to that.

We have proof epic twinks are classic. Fact.

Next a dev added on to the reasoning after people knocked the stuffing out of nillbog's initial confusing explanation "You can't pk at level 1 in crushbone anymore on red99 haha" Huh???

Bizarre and incomplete explanation, that just leaves us wondering what the real reasons behind the changes are. Appreciate the hard work and volunteer time, but yikes at the gross indifference towards the community that supports PROJECT 1999.

Read the logo again in the top left corner of the screen, that's the community.

[ergo]

I honestly do not care if they nerf red. Leave blue alone.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

I honestly do not care if they nerf red. Leave blue alone.

Are you gonna cry?

[ergo]

Are you gonna cry?

Nope, but what a sound and well thought out and intelligent response.

[AzzarTheGod]

Nope, but what a sound and well thought out and intelligent response.

As demonstrated throughout this thread, these are the majority of the supporters the staff has out here making the case for them.

Very intelligent bunch, eh? But do they make more sense than the official reasoning given? I haven't decided yet to be frank.

Maybe B4EQWASCOOL can take a really big hit of some drugs, use a bigger font next time, and enlighten us more on these "Upcoming improvements" to the Project 1999 classic experience. He seems like an ambassador that could land himself a spot running the big show some day. I'm sure hes got plenty of great ideas and thoughts on that new custom content server that could use some help getting off the ground.

[ergo]

What I dont understand is why blue is being messed with because of the actions of 500 or so on red? They have a rogue problem on pvp, deal with it on pvp... the popular server, blue is not broken.

Dont fix it.

[Mojo24]

This is the only change I have ever taken issue with, because the reasoning is just so bizarre.

Join date June 2015.

[ergo]

This account Join date June 2015.

FTFY

[Mojo24]

FTFY

I see, you must know because you came rushing to the aid of your boyfriend.

Carry on.

[Kutsumo]

Hey guys, just want to point out a minor detail that you seem to be missing. Where did Nilbog say that this change is about red or rogue epics? He explained himself very clearly. At least try to dispute his actual reasoning rather than stringing up your favorite straw man.

There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain. Several couldn't be completed until 46 or higher due to level checks on quests or certain steps involving planar zones. It has been noted by the original developers that epic items were intended only for those of higher levels. Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals. Therefore, we are adding a level requirement of 46 to equip all epic items.

[ergo]

No I just dont like bad arguments. You were inferring that his opinion was irrelevant based on how long the current account has existed.

That is both shitty logic and has no baring on anything.

[ergo]

Hey guys, just want to point out a minor detail that you seem to be missing. Where did Nilbog say that this change is about red or rogue epics? He explained himself very clearly. At least try to dispute his actual reasoning rather than stringing up your favorite straw man.

You would be right except:

There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain.

This specifically states they have no idea and are making shit up, years into the game after allowing it.

Please explain, with real reasoning, how a lv 1-45 cleric holding an epic harms anyone at all? It doesn't harm anyone. Shaman epic? Same thing cant click it. Neither are worth a crap until they are be clicked, save for stats.

Now which epic is both easily obtained and usable 100%? Rogue. It isn't hard to figure out. Which server would have the most impact? Red. Cause a rogue backstabbing for 140+ at under lv 20 could cause serious problems.

On blue? Worst case they solo, best case they group and their groups LOVE an epic rogue dpsing for them.

So, you are right, they didn't SAY it was to counter the pvp issue, but that is what it does, in action. Beyond the look of epics on sub 46 chars, it does nothing to harm the game.


Also the cleric epic does not require planar travel - at all - and thus this other 'reason' he stated is both irrelevant and moot.

Next bad argument please.

[Kutsumo]

You would be right except:



This specifically states they have no idea and are making shit up, years into the game after allowing it.

Please explain, with real reasoning, how a lv 1-45 cleric holding an epic harms anyone at all? It doesn't harm anyone. Shaman epic? Same thing cant click it. Neither are worth a crap until they are be clicked, save for stats.

Now which epic is both easily obtained and usable 100%? Rogue. It isn't hard to figure out. Which server would have the most impact? Red. Cause a rogue backstabbing for 140+ at under lv 20 could cause serious problems.

On blue? Worst case they solo, best case they group and their groups LOVE an epic rogue dpsing for them.

So, you are right, they didn't SAY it was to counter the pvp issue, but that is what it does, in action. Beyond the look of epics on sub 46 chars, it does nothing to harm the game.


Of course this change effects the rogue epic more than other epics - it's the easiest to MQ at a low level and is very impactful at a low level. However, to infer that the rogue epic was their motivation for this change is pointless speculation since it has nothing to do with the stated reasoning.

I do understand why you're focusing on this, and especially on the least impactful pre 50 epic (clr). It makes for an argument that you feel you can win. Do you understand what a straw man argument is? If not, look at what you're doing and compare it to the definition.

Also the cleric epic does not require planar travel - at all - and thus this other 'reason' he stated is both irrelevant and moot.

Next bad argument please.

He didn't say that all epics require planar travel and therefore you should be at planar level. Please try reading this again.

Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals.

[ergo]

Exactly, its all their opinion and for some reason that opinion has not been a priority until velious was released. There is no need to change it. Why ruin the fun?

Either they need to 100% do away with MQing, and add item level requirements to ALL items of significant power, or they need leave epics alone and address the only real problem to game play that anyone says is an issue - rogues on red.

This is not a problem on blue.

[Seltius]

Can anyone give me a reason, other than leveling faster, why not having an epic at low levels is game breaking? Help me understand this. Really.

I can see the red ganking noobs. But what else is there that makes having an epic at low levels important?

Your making this a Dev vs Red thing. I spent a lot of time got a lot of help from friends and then spent a lot of plat getting my ranger his Swiftwind and Earthcaller along with a full set of Tolans just because it looked amazing. Several times I have had a GM run through and toss an illusion(High Elf or Troll to name 2 I remember off hand) on him in EC just to make him look cool as a race that cannot be ranger. It was all in fun I don't even play him that often anymore. He is level 30 and will probably stay that way. This was on blue99 btw. It was the chance to accomplish something so I guess with these changes I have no reason to ever log him in again. I didn't do it to grief anyone or to exploit or anything else it was something I never got on live until it was so trivial I was able to solo most of it.(ranger epics) It was for the fun and fashionquest.

This was what the game was about it wasn't a game changer or exploit it was because that was the fun of being able to customize your character and maybe do something different. We all play or played this game for our own reasons to have fun in our own way. Yes I agree some live to grief others or to exploit or to make money but most of us in our own ways play this game just to have fun. If we didn't need the social interaction or the customizable ability of our toons we could go play a console game. I am betting that is what attracted you guys to the idea of doing an emulated version of EQ if not you would have been doing WoW or some console game instead. It was the parts of the game you enjoyed that stuck with you.

I am not asking you not to implement this change. I am just asking that you not make it so some of us who did epics for innocent reasons to have fun without hurting others aren't hurt by the change. This isn't a classic change so it isn't necessary to take a sledge hammer to it to fix. I can understand making it not equippable until 46 if that is what you feel is best for the server and community but please do not unequip or make them automatically unequip when this change goes through. The griefers on Red or other places will die sooner or later and then they just cant reequip their epic until 46. Imo that's a win win for everyone.

There are so many other positive changes that can be made currently to help the server and community please you guys do good work keep it up.

Oh and it might be time to do a server restart. Not wipe but just restart them there are some pretty serious ghosting and latency issues starting to pop up. Seem to remember someone posting may have been years ago that if the server wasn't restarted at like day 44 or 74 or something it really started to act funny.


Last thing sorry if you addressed what I said earlier I only got to the page your comment was posted on before I felt I should quote it.

Thanks again for all you guys do for us.

[Kutsumo]

Exactly, its all their opinion and for some reason that opinion has not been a priority until velious was released. There is no need to change it. Why ruin the fun?

There is a list of reasons why they chose to make this change, and not all of them are based on opinion. In fact, only one of the four points could be construed as the opinion of P99 staff. It's rather convenient to focus on only that one, isn't it?

Borrowing this from another poster who already made this point earlier in the thread...

[1]There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain.
[2]Several couldn't be completed until 46 or higher due to level checks on quests or certain steps involving planar zones.
[3] It has been noted by the original developers that epic items were intended only for those of higher levels.
[4]Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals.
[Conclusion] Therefore, we are adding a level requirement of 46 to equip all epic items.

Either they need to 100% do away with MQing, and add item level requirements to ALL items of significant power, or they need leave epics alone and address the only real problem to game play that anyone says is an issue - rogues on red.

This is not a problem on blue.

That whole "you need to do it all or nothing" (in regard to nerfing all MQs and all powerful items) is another fallacious argument on your part. No, they don't need to do all or nothing - they can do specifically what was stated for the reasons stated. Again, you're pinning this on a "rogues on red" issue when the staff hasn't stated that as a reason. You can assume and project and guess all you want, but it's all just speculation, and the actual reasons are hard to dispute - evidenced by your avoiding those points and the straw man raids.

[ergo]

If they want to be fair... they should nerf all or nothing. Because I am sure the creators of EQ never intended a sub level 50 to be wearing a fungi tunic.

Also an opinion is not fallacious. It is my opinion they should nerf it all or nothing. You can say my reasoning is fallacious, but holding an opinion is not.



[4]Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals.

Opinion.


Several couldn't be completed until 46 or higher due to level checks on quests or certain steps involving planar zones. fact but they are not sure which are and which arent. Nerfing MQing without proper knowledge is not something that should be done lightly when they cant even fix shrink in dungeons when myself and others have shown direct evidence it should.

There is inconsistent research regarding which epics required level requirements to obtain. Fact, they dont know, they arent sure, so after years of allowing the MQ and equipping of rogue, cleric, sham and monk epics, suddenly its going away.


Their conclusion is based on inconsistent research by their own standards, so why make a decision contrary to how the server has been working (see popular) and fun just because of their ignorance? Either they are withholding information or their true reasons, or their reasons are not based on 'classic' or how things were, its something else.


Can someone give me any real reason to do this that has nothing to do with pvp?

[Ele]

Can someone give me any real reason to do this that has nothing to do with pvp?

Because it is their server and they want to do it.

[Itap]

Because it is their server and they want to do it.

I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand. This is Rogeans/Nilbogs project, and when it comes down to it, they can do whatever they want. Rogean can pull the plug tomorrow and he doesn't have to give a reason why. Just stop complaining and enjoy the ride.

[AzzarTheGod]

I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand. This is Rogeans/Nilbogs project, and when it comes down to it, they can do whatever they want. Rogean can pull the plug tomorrow and he doesn't have to give a reason why. Just stop complaining and enjoy the ride.

lol ok pal :rolleyes:

He advertised it to us as Project 1999, are you insinuating Rogean and nillbog are troll bullshitters then?

That logic looks real flawed.

[Itap]

There are several non classic changes here that exist solely because the developers felt that a change was needed to better accommodate the player base as a whole. Explain to me how that equals trolling.

[ergo]

There are several non classic changes here that exist solely because the developers felt that a change was needed to better accommodate the player base as a whole. Explain to me how that equals trolling.

And you think making epics and MQs for epics pointless before 46 is what the players, as a majority, want?

People buying the MQs dont want it. People selling MQs dont want. Some of us do both.

This was classic. Best suggestion, start a new servers with these new rules instead of one that is already saturated with the 4 classes that can MQ epics and be done with it.

Let everyone that doesnt want a server with MQ rogue, sham, cleric, monk epics go there and let the players decide, if the player base as a whole, in fact wants this change.

[Fanguru]

If they want to be fair...

And you think making epics and MQs for epics pointless before 46 is what the players, as a majority, want?

Why would they want to be fair or accomodate the majority of players?
They removed mechanics the majority of players enjoyed, such as automatically sitting down when typing /camp or standing up when casting a spell while sitting down.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your opinions do not matter that much in the decision process :p

[ergo]

Why would they want to be fair or accomodate the majority of players?
They removed mechanics the majority of players enjoyed, such as automatically sitting down when typing /camp or standing up when casting a spell while sitting down.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your opinions do not matter that much in the decision process :p

I never claimed it did. But that doesn't mean I cant waste my time giving it.

[AzzarTheGod]

I never claimed it did. But that doesn't mean I cant waste my time giving it.

They are waking up the wrong sleeping giant.

I've been tempted to take a few of these posters to the cleaners. Maelstrom and yourself have held me back, towing the line proper for the Project 1999 brand. I have been sitting back observing how well you two have done against the power-gaming leveling min-maxing raid bigots <Asgard> and possibly some members of the staff who insinuated as much as well..

But I am getting dangerously close to unleashing a barrage and I can't be held responsible for who gets caught in the crossfire. <Asgard>, please bow out of this discussion before you get embarrassed any further.

[Fanguru]

Fair enough!

[sonicjoose]

500k on an AoN isn't going to help you kill faster

just sayin

[Messie]

They are waking up the wrong sleeping giant.

I've been tempted to take a few of these posters to the cleaners. Maelstrom and yourself have held me back, towing the line proper for the Project 1999 brand. I have been sitting back observing how well you two have done against the power-gaming leveling min-maxing raid bigots <Asgard> and possibly some members of the staff who insinuated as much as well..

But I am getting dangerously close to unleashing a barrage and I can't be held responsible for who gets caught in the crossfire. <Asgard>, please bow out of this discussion before you get embarrassed any further.

hope this is a troll :rolleyes:

[am0n]

hope this is a troll :rolleyes:

It made me laugh! Let him keep going. I want to see how this ends.

Azzar stands upon the soapbox, ready to unleash his barrage, when suddenly the top of the box opens, dropping him into a pit. Sikorsky shows up and hangs a sign upon the soapbox.

"Banned."

[Kutsumo]

Lol the truth is probably that I'm even more casual than Azzar, yet he wants to keep pinning some kind of "bigot power gamer raider" tag on me. It's taken me almost 3 years playing here to achieve two level 55 characters, and a handful of level 20-30s.

<Asgard> is the only raiding guild I feel comfortable being in. They cater to casuals by having no attendance requirements or hurt feelings when you can't wake up for a batphone or want to play an alt during raid time.

It's sad that you feel the need to drag <Asgard> through the mud for your ad hominem attacks. Why don't you debate the actual points of argument rather than attacking people who you know nothing about?

[qinsteel]

I have just read this entire post and lost over an hour of my life. Two things come to mind. There is such a passion among the fan base that there is an argument over a 15 year old game and its mechanics. Two, I am part of that fan base. There are two sides and nobody is going to change each others mind and the Dev's are going to do what they do and we are all going to continue to play until something better comes along. What a great world we live in!

[ergo]

Speaking of bullshit that shouldnt be allowed, how about making Soulfires use on equip. I mean THAT isnt abroken as shit or nothing...

[krazyGlue]

What about characters that obtain epic and delevel? Level restrictions on items didn't happen until Luclin. This news is ruining my classic experience.

I agree this new rule is bullshit , deleved epic toons are classic

[Ele]

Your subscription fee refunds are being processed.

[JDFriend99]

Ele... I laughed my ass off. That's right, we play for free. And don't ever forget it or forget to say thank you as the hammer swings!!

[ergo]

Ele... I laughed my ass off. That's right, we play for free. And don't ever forget it or forget to say thank you as the hammer swings!!

Ya cause playing for free means you cant disagree with decisions being made right? We should just shut up and take it when we know its a bad decision, its wrong and even by their own words they dont know its even accurate?

Yeah you are right... shut up and just take it guys. You dont pay to play, so your input is not wanted.

[Ele]

Ya cause playing for free means you cant disagree with decisions being made right? We should just shut up and take it when we know its a bad decision, its wrong and even by their own words they dont know its even accurate?

Yeah you are right... shut up and just take it guys. You dont pay to play, so your input is not wanted.

You can win! Keep fighting!

[ergo]

Talking = fighting?

[Ele]

Talking = fighting?

ESL?

Fighting is used in a figurative sense. Certainly not advocating you jump in the MMA ring with nilbog or Rogean. e.g. "fight the power", "fight the system".

[wormed]

They are waking up the wrong sleeping giant.

I've been tempted to take a few of these posters to the cleaners. Maelstrom and yourself have held me back, towing the line proper for the Project 1999 brand. I have been sitting back observing how well you two have done against the power-gaming leveling min-maxing raid bigots <Asgard> and possibly some members of the staff who insinuated as much as well..

But I am getting dangerously close to unleashing a barrage and I can't be held responsible for who gets caught in the crossfire. <Asgard>, please bow out of this discussion before you get embarrassed any further.

Autism.

Sorry, bro. I didn't know.

[jakerees]

I don't ever post but I've been playing on P99 for a little while and i wanted to weigh in and say that I like this change. Can't wait for it to be implemented.

[ergo]

I don't ever post but I've been playing on P99 for a little while and i wanted to weigh in and say that I like this change. Can't wait for it to be implemented.

Specifically, why?

[nilzark]

Excellent. Anything to make this game harder. Suffering is the path to righteousness.

[pathius41]

Specifically, why?

My reason, though it may be different than the other poster's, is because I hate lfg for an hour waiting for a spot to open only to have some other twink rogue enter the zone and "/ooc 30 epic rogue lfg" suddenly I am chopped liver. One night it happened to me three times until I gave up and logged. Yes I realize maybe it's not exactly classic, but sometimes you have to do what is right. On live I remember the classic days and you just didn't have the knowledge that's around now, or the 4years of pre velious gear piling up on everyone's alts or the craziness of MQing epics for plat ( yes maybe a few times it happened) but not like here. I applaud them for trying to curb this, albeit a bit too late now but live and learn, maybe one day they will start a fresh server with everything they learned over the years.

[ergo]

So you know its not classic, you dont care its not classic, but because of your subjective experience, everyone else should suffer? Also the 5 others in the group dont seem to be upset with an epic rogue.

So again, I want to point out, this is a rogue problem. Not an Epic MQ issue, etc. Cleric epics sub 50 hurt no one, shaman same and monk?


5/6 happy, 1/6 unhappy. Make the 1/6 happy! /ooc twinked non-epic rogue lfg, still better than non-twinked rogue...

Shrug. Just want to be clear. Sounds like a twink problem, not an epic problem.

Edit - also want to point out, twink groups > casual groups - always for exp. This was true on live and it is true here.

[jakerees]

Makes sense that epics are to be had at higher levels only. It is what they were put in the game for.

[ergo]

Makes sense that epics are to be had at higher levels only. It is what they were put in the game for.

Same with fungi tunics and Tstaves and any other item that comes from a zone of mobs > 46 no?

They were not designed to twink your non-lv 46s. Lets make all items from higher level zones unwearable for the same reason.

Update every item level to the level of the mob that drops it and make that the hard requirement. If we are gonna fix twinking, lets do it right and completely.

[jakerees]

Yeah, I'd be okay with that too. Been playing for awhile and I have yet to accumulate even 1k. I'll never have a fungi or an epic at a low level. It would be nice to know I'm on the same playing field with those around my level. Its hard to find a group as a level 20 monk. Gotta think it doesn't help me when people inspect me and see me wearing weak armor.

[ergo]

Well there's your first problem, your main is a monk. You went extreme hard mode for your first char since weight is a problem.

I am glad we are catering to the complete casual instead of the long term players that have managed to make 30k and can afford to buy a ragebringer for their lv 1 rogue.

Great plan.

You know what would solve the rogue problem. Damage caps by level on backstab. They already do that for all melee weapons and if it did that for backstabs, no one would care.

[jakerees]

Oh I'm sorry, didn't realize I had to run my choice for a main by the community first. Didn't realize that would disqualify any future opinions I had on server updates. My bad.

Circling back to my original comment, I'm glad this change is coming and I am thankful for having a server like this to take me back to my fond memories of high school gaming.

[ergo]

No you dont have to , but dont whine about not having plat when you make a choice that makes acquiring plat the hardest thing to do.

Circling back to my original comment, I'm glad this change is coming and I am thankful for having a server like this to take me back to my fond memories of high school gaming.

And yet both you and the devs concede that the current plans are NOT classic and therefore you never had fond memories of playing a twinkless game from highschool.

Go make your own server and start it setup this way and have fun. Why ruin everyone else fun because you made a bad choice of first char?

[pathius41]

I'm sorry my opinion differs from yours. Wait, not I'm not, I am so sick of the elitest tone this forum has. When did p99 adopt the WoW community?

[ergo]

I didn't say your opinion was bad, I said it was demonstrably false. You can have your opinion all you want, but it is not based on facts or reality of the game.

If pointing that out makes me elitist, then I guess so.

I said, why support a change you and the devs know isn't classic, and you never had fond memories of, which was your justification for supporting this change.

It sounds like the only people that want this change are casuals that play a few hrs a day a few times a week and not the people paying 8+ a day.

[Ele]

It sounds like the only people that want this change are casuals that play a few hrs a day a few times a week and not the people paying 8+ a day.

and the guys that own and operate the server, but what does that matter.

[ergo]

and the guys that own and operate the server, but what does that matter.

That's fine, but but stop calling Classic Everquest and call it 'their version.' stop pretending it is anything other than, 'everquest, how they want it to be played.'

[Ele]

That's fine, but but stop calling Classic Everquest and call it 'their version.' stop pretending it is anything other than, 'everquest, how they want it to be played.'

It has always been what they want, their interpretation of classic, and they have the final say.

If this is news to you, surprise.

[ergo]

Thats fine if that is how they are interpreting something, but not when they admit, straight up they have no foundation for it.

I just want a real reason, and not some bullshit. Is that too much ask? "cause we said so' is a valid reason, but a shit reason to do anything.

At least if they have a sound argument as to why the change, after YEARS of allowing it is needed, people can understand it and get behind it.

[Ele]

They have given their reasons. You simply disagree with them.

Also anything is subject to change here. You should have zero expection that when you wake up tomorrow your character will be here for you. Enjoy it minute to minute for what it is.

[Messie]

They have given their reasons. You simply disagree with them.

Also anything is subject to change here. You should have zero expection that when you wake up tomorrow your character be will be here for you. Enjoy it minute to minute for what it is.

The perfect post.

[ergo]

They have given their reasons. You simply disagree with them.

Stating that the investigation is inconclusive and deciding to do something anyway is a bad reason. I would hope, if they actually cared about making the game classic, they would wait for a COMPLETE investigation before making a drastic change that a minority at best wants.

That's fine, you are right they could wipe the server tomorrow and or shut down. That is their right. It is also my right to bitch and moan about a decision if I so choose, regardless of them ignoring it or not.

The game being free, them doing what they want is all fine, if you think that means we have zero reason to speak out about something we dont like, thats your opinion.

[Ele]

You're really calling into question whether the people that spent the better part of a decade building this server really care about classic everquest? Seriously?

You could go do research and bump the threads that deal with this very issue in bug reports and present cogent arguments and evidence rather than simply "bitch and moan" as you say.

How does one complete an investigation where most of the contemporaneous evidence is now inaccessible or missing? Sometimes the devs have to make a gut call and go with it.

[ergo]

You're really calling into question whether the people that spent the better part of a decade building this server really care about classic everquest? Seriously?

Based on this topic and a few others, yes I am in fact calling into question their caring about it being ACTUAL classic and not just THEIR version of classic.

This change in and of itself is direct evidence of why I question it.

You could go do research and bump the threads that deal with this very issue in bug reports and present cogent arguments and evidence rather than simply "bitch and moan" as you say.

But they are going to do what they want anyway? People have clearly done that and they clearly do not care. Otherwise the research would be solid and they wouldnt have to say it was inconclusive, yet people know for a fact you could get your epic and delevel and STILL EQUIP IT. You might not be able to click a cleric till 50, but making it so you cant equip it, is not classic.

How does one complete an investigation where most of the contemporaneous evidence is now inaccessible or missing?

Indeed you fucking wait and dont break shit and withhold judgement instead of kneejerk nerfing epics for no real reason.

Sometimes the devs have to make a gut call and go with it.

But it still isn't justification for breaking MQs of epic, and making it so you cant even equip it. "we dont think anyone under 46 should equip a piece of gear' should founded on solid evidence with zero room to fuck it up after YEARS of allow it.

That would make the most sense, unless, again there is some reason they have not made public, like them not liking rogues on red murdering people. At least then I could understand that, and I could even offer a solution that doesnt fuck over shamans, clerics which cant click their damn epics anyway BUT can wear them.

But no, its ' we dont know, but we like the idea, even if it isnt classic.' So yeah, I am gonna disagree with that.

[Messie]

Ergo, relax.

[ergo]

Ergo, relax.

No thank you. When they fix shrink. When stop dicking with shit like buff timers, while they leave in item links and nerf epics and the whole time claim that this is supposed to be a classic everquest experience, with non-paladins clicking soul fires, but that isnt being nerfed.

I mean the list goes on and on and on. The drop rate on canni IV etc.

Nonoo, lets 'fix' epics so sub 46 cant use them based on bad info.

Don't get me wrong, still their server to do as they see fit. But stop calling it classic, because it isn't.

[Messie]

Ergo, relax.

[ergo]

No thank you. .

[AzzarTheGod]

No thank you. When they fix shrink. When stop dicking with shit like buff timers, while they leave in item links and nerf epics and the whole time claim that this is supposed to be a classic everquest experience, with non-paladins clicking soul fires, but that isnt being nerfed.

I mean the list goes on and on and on. The drop rate on canni IV etc.

Nonoo, lets 'fix' epics so sub 46 cant use them based on bad info.

Don't get me wrong, still their server to do as they see fit. But stop calling it classic, because it isn't.

The change is a joke. I'm prepared to sound off on it but I would need the greenlight and temporary ban immunity.

Sikorsky will you let me say my piece about these non-classic unjustified changes and the people who support them without merit?

[Ennewi]

Don't get me wrong, still their server to do as they see fit. But stop calling it classic, because it isn't.

their server to call classic

[ergo]

meh w/e its not classic, regardless of what they call it.

[Ele]

meh w/e its not classic, regardless of what they call it.

The server is a work in progress, things are subject to change without prior warning as they get to them. Some things are easier to address than offers.

Think of this a long beta project, you'll have less stress over these types of changes.

[wormed]

This thread, man.

"Waaah, stop calling it classic then!!! /pout"

Lordy.

[bubur]

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e15/11377894_792328420886691_1408737707_n.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KSJcJTz.jpg

[ergo]

Yeah my bad, I guess it is too much to ask for honesty and integrity from anyone these days.

Also not stressed, disappointed is more the feeling. Forum quest is fun.

[AzzarTheGod]

Still waiting for the greenlight.

[Cecily]

Well there's your first problem, your main is a monk. You went extreme hard mode for your first char since weight is a problem.

I am glad we are catering to the complete casual instead of the long term players that have managed to make 30k and can afford to buy a ragebringer for their lv 1 rogue.

Great plan.

You know what would solve the rogue problem. Damage caps by level on backstab. They already do that for all melee weapons and if it did that for backstabs, no one would care.

You understand that damage is capped by level on backstab, right? Of course you do, I'm sure. I haven't read all your hilarious posts, but you seem to be upset by not classic and simultaneously want to make a not classic change regarding my class. Nothing really to add besides I'm enjoying your melt down.

This is a change that was sorely needed, and I'm absolutely thrilled that new rogues will get to experience the joys of incremental weapon upgrades instead of the boring and game breaking trend of receiving your epic when you turn in your newbie note. Good job devs. Been hoping for this change for years.

[Messie]

Still waiting for the greenlight.

Post something or shhh!

[ergo]

You understand that damage is capped by level on backstab, right? Of course you do, I'm sure. I haven't read all your hilarious posts, but you seem to be upset by not classic and simultaneously want to make a not classic change regarding my class. Nothing really to add besides I'm enjoying your melt down.

This is a change that was sorely needed, and I'm absolutely thrilled that new rogues will get to experience the joys of incremental weapon upgrades instead of the boring and game breaking trend of receiving your epic when you turn in your newbie note. Good job devs. Been hoping for this change for years.

You think this is a melt down? Bitching and moaning on a thread on the internets is a melt down? Okay!

Disagreeing and arguing != a melt fyi. I am glad you have enjoyed the entertainment provided. I do live to entertain!


I do believe my statement about backstab came with a qualifier of 'if that is the real reason.'

I would much rather see a nerf to backstab damage at lower levels than remove the ability of all classes to use an item and equip it. If one is going to nerf something and go off script or classic in this case, err on side of least annoyance, instead of screwing over multiple class, again if this is reason.

Or better still if the argument is actually twinking, then apply it to more than just epic weapons. I believe I spelled this out quite clearly. I am sorry you failed to comprehend that when you were reading and deciding that anything I have posted was a 'melt down.'

So when they do this, do you not foresee the issue of every rogue using the same next best weapon until 46, thus making your weapon progression idea moot? I guess you already thought of that right?

[Cecily]

Once upon a time, rogues were a fairly rare class on P99. Very hard class to start out with and expensive to gear. Impossible to solo and also poor unless you got lucky on 1 in 6 rolls. The only people playing rogues were those who loved the class for what it was, flaws and all. Low level MQs completely changed that demographic.

Rogues became a twink class which anyone with a large chunk of plat could roll a level one with a fungi and solo to 50. Many were originally solo casters and awful at playing a melee. Lazy players who'd AFK all the time while acting like you were lucky to have them. I guess you were if they'd actually pay attention and backstab, of course then they'd be tanking. God help them if they didn't have a fungi, because no sub-50 warrior had a snowballs chance in hell to hold agro off them. Which lead to these twinks having no concept of agro control when they hit Sebilis.

Probably the worst thing to come of it was the rampant discrimination faced by any poor rogue without an epic. Plenty of people got denied groups because the population got so used to rogues twinks. And if you did get a group you caught shit about not having it. The whole thing was a disaster. MQs made a joke of my class and broke the low level game. Good riddance.

[ergo]

Once upon a time, rogues were a fairly rare class on P99. Very hard class to start out with and expensive to gear. Impossible to solo and also poor unless you got lucky on 1 in 6 rolls. The only people playing rogues were those who loved the class for what it was, flaws and all. Low level MQs completely changed that demographic.

Rogues became a twink class which anyone with a large chunk of plat could roll a level one with a fungi and solo to 50. Many were originally solo casters and awful at playing a melee. Lazy players who'd AFK all the time while acting like you were lucky to have them. I guess you were if they'd actually pay attention and backstab, of course then they'd be tanking. God help them if they didn't have a fungi, because no sub-50 warrior had a snowballs chance in hell to hold agro off them. Which lead to these twinks having no concept of agro control when they hit Sebilis.

Probably the worst thing to come of it was the rampant discrimination faced by any poor rogue without an epic. Plenty of people got denied groups because the population got so used to rogues twinks. And if you did get a group you caught shit about not having it. The whole thing was a disaster. MQs made a joke of my class and broke the low level game. Good riddance.

So let me get this right. Because some people are douche bags, you think that makes this okay to nerf all epics? Is this really your best reason/argument against people that can, having a ragebringer, spear of fate, sprinkler, celestial fists?

Seriously? Tell me you have something better.

edit - Also what makes you think the same douchebaggery wont exist at lv 46 for rogues without epics? Oh wait it wont solve that, just delay it.

[Cecily]

No. It's ok to nerf epics MQ because it was a game breaking feature that needed to be dealt with on our server. 3 out of those 4 epics you mention don't allow their effects to be used until level 50, so maybe that's an indication of what level those items were meant for? If the MQ market had been remotely similar on live to what it was here, it would have been nerfed similarly in the interest of preserving low level balance.

So when they do this, do you not foresee the issue of every rogue using the same next best weapon until 46, thus making your weapon progression idea moot? I guess you already thought of that right?

Well. You see. The thing is. There isn't an easily obtainable next best weapon in Velious. There's a huge difference in supply. Rogue epics were ubiquitous, being only subject to 8 hour bottle necks, making 3 new epics per day possible and for quite a long time on this server those 3 were being made by farmers. Made it pretty damn easy to find one to buy.

"Next best" weapons in Velious are rare drops off of difficult mobs. You're not going to find one casually tunnel questing. You probably WILL find an acceptable alternative, however, and will appreciate your upgrade more when you can finally afford / find it.

You're not going to see every baby rogue in the game using a Salindrite, HoH, or Exquisite Velium Spear. Ever.

[ergo]

Damn I forgot another problem you seem to ignoring or have overlooked which is more my situation. Instead of at least grouping and helping 5 other people get exp, and learning the class (at least some what), now I will just pay to get PLed to 46 so I can use the epics anyway.

So the real losers are people that could benefit for the extra dps of a twinked rogue and the winners are the bards and druid offering PL services.

People are still going to suck at rogue because now they have zero incentive to group and just pay a little extra to have their chars delivered to them at 46 with epic in hand.

Tada nothing fixed. This is the rogue situation you and the devs are creating. Glad it addresses zero of your concerns! Good riddance! Keep up the good work devs.

[Cecily]

Damn I forgot another problem you seem to ignoring or have overlooked which is more my situation. Instead of at least grouping and helping 5 other people get exp, and learning the class (at least some what), now I will just pay to get PLed to 46 so I can use the epics anyway.

So the real losers are people that could benefit for the extra dps of a twinked rogue and the winners are the bards and druid offering PL services.

People are still going to suck at rogue because now they have zero incentive to group and just pay a little extra to have their chars delivered to them at 46 with epic in hand.

Tada nothing fixed. This is the rogue situation you and the devs are creating. Glad it addresses zero of your concerns! Good riddance! Keep up the good work devs.

Lazy players who'd AFK all the time while acting like you were lucky to have them.

Wow. You're a perfect representation of this phenomenon. Haha.

[ergo]

No. It's ok to nerf epics MQ because it was a game breaking feature that needed to be dealt with on our server. 3 out of those 4 epics you mention don't allow their effects to be used until level 50, so maybe that's an indication of what level those items were meant for?

Indeed, so lets nerf all items that have a proc that does not work until X level for the exact same reason no? You don't get to wield any weapon with a proc unless you are at the level the works.

Do you see the problem with your logic now? The fact that it is a quest is irrelevant. The fact that it can be MQ'd is irrelevant. If the items are not supposed to be acquired because the effects do not work, then all procing weapons should be treated the same way.

I am for this - as it is would be equal - at least.

You're not going to see every baby rogue in the game using a Salindrite, HoH, or Exquisite Velium Spear. Ever.

I guess you underestimate the power of bored people on p99. Also if people could farm those 3 per day, I assure you, they would be just as common.

[Cecily]

But they can't and they won't cost 30k. Soooo... yeah.

[ergo]

Wow. You're a perfect representation of this phenomenon. Haha.

That is fine if you feel that way. But that doesnt address your concerns nor solve the problem you say I am part of. This change will do nothing. It will however make it worse and that was my point.

[ergo]

But they can't and they won't cost 30k. Soooo... yeah.

So the price is the problem? I don't get your complaint here. If they were 3x per day, they would be 30k.

[Cecily]

But they aren't and they won't be. You do bring up a good point about power leveling, which is another festering, cancerous sore on P99.
I can not wait until Chardok RMT Inc. gets shut down.

[ergo]

But they aren't and they won't be. You do bring up a good point about power leveling, which is another festering, cancerous sore on P99.
I can not wait until Chardok RMT Inc. gets shut down.

Chardok is not the only AE location, just the most deserted. Also PLing is wonderfully classic. I did so on 5 accounts and one of my more favorite pastimes.

AE grinding is very much classic as well. As for the RMT, meh, cant fix that. As long as there is people with money willing to spend it and people willing to sell pixils, it will happen. If blizzard and other companies cant fix it, you think the part time devs of p99 stand a chance of eliminating it?

The river denial is long, it wide, and it deep.

[JDFriend99]

Indeed, so lets nerf all items that have a proc that does not work until X level for the exact same reason no? You don't get to wield any weapon with a proc unless you are at the level the works.

Do you see the problem with your logic now? The fact that it is a quest is irrelevant. The fact that it can be MQ'd is irrelevant. If the items are not supposed to be acquired because the effects do not work, then all procing weapons should be treated the same way.

I am for this - as it is would be equal - at least.



I guess you underestimate the power of bored people on p99. Also if people could farm those 3 per day, I assure you, they would be just as common.

This isn't one of the brightest retorts ive ever set eyes upon.

Making every epic a 46+ questline to equip the item rewarded is damn good. You cannot go and compare a drop item bought in EC with an item quested that is designed to be best in slot. Please rethinj these arguments...

[maestrom]

You can argue that some non-planar raid drops are on par with epics and are not much more effort to obtain than an epic.

War bow comes to mind.

[AzzarTheGod]

But they aren't and they won't be. You do bring up a good point about power leveling, which is another festering, cancerous sore on P99.
I can not wait until Chardok RMT Inc. gets shut down.

Won't go into the ballistics, but will hit a few points on why this is moot now. Chardok RMT, as you call it, is shut down. The only way it was lucrative was abusing the cross-server transfer ratios and leveraging millions of plat back and forth. Not being able to perform leverage trades is the difference between a Mid-level IT paycheck, and a burger-flipping paycheck. Burger flipping doesn't pay bills.

You might say well how would leverage trading cross-server even confer such big gains? Its not/was not done simply with just platinum, the final stage would have been with items cross-server for plat. Theres four to five stages to a leverage trade, and it starts with a cross-server platinum trade, purchases of major in-demand marquee items are made, etc etc.

They're done. It will take time, but Rogean just kicked the shit out of the most lucrative RMT scheme ever when he closed cross-server trades.

Good luck continuing cross-server trading quietly now that every one-sided trade is officially a bannable offense without recourse. And "I was transfering from red" doesn't work anymore as a get out of jail card for these scumbags.

[ergo]

This isn't one of the brightest retorts ive ever set eyes upon.

Making every epic a 46+ questline to equip the item rewarded is damn good. You cannot go and compare a drop item bought in EC with an item quested that is designed to be best in slot. Please rethinj these arguments...

Actually I can. The point was - epics should be nerfed because you cant use the effect on them before 46.

You cannot use the effect of proc weapons for the same reason. It is not designed to work before that level, so clearly the item is, by design, not for anyone under that level, if you use the same reasoning given above.

I am sorry you failed to see this. It does not matter how the item is obtained, if the item does not work before X level, then it shouldn't be equiped, if you use the same reasoning.

I am simply applying her logic and reason to other items based on the identical criteria.

[Seltius]

WTB pwrlvl for Ranger from 30-46 pst in game!

[Ennewi]

1. Denial — The first reaction is denial. "Not classic." In this stage players believe the announced changes are somehow unjust, and cling to a false, preferable reality.

2. Anger — When players recognize that denial cannot continue, they become frustrated, especially at proximate individuals / Haynar. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"

3. Bargaining — The third stage involves the hope that players can avoid upcoming changes by providing evidence to support their claims. Players facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise.

4. Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I miss my beloved luclin models/color target window, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, players become saddened by the mathematical probability of patch notes. In this state, these individuals may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time afk, mournful and sullen.

5. Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it."; "It's their server."
In this last stage, players embrace the inevitable future of the server which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the player, and a stable condition of emotions.

[Kutsumo]

1. Denial — The first reaction is denial. "Not classic." In this stage players believe the announced changes are somehow unjust, and cling to a false, preferable reality.

2. Anger — When players recognize that denial cannot continue, they become frustrated, especially at proximate individuals / Haynar. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"

3. Bargaining — The third stage involves the hope that players can avoid upcoming changes by providing evidence to support their claims. Players facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise.

4. Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I miss my beloved luclin models/color target window, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, players become saddened by the mathematical probability of patch notes. In this state, these individuals may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time afk, mournful and sullen.

5. Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it."; "It's their server."
In this last stage, players embrace the inevitable future of the server which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the player, and a stable condition of emotions.

This progression definitely isn't guaranteed. One could view the post history of a few individuals in here and find they've consistently been looping steps 1-3 for months (or more, ain't got time to read that many posts).

[Rararboker]

This was my suggestion (took a few days before I remembered I'd offered this) for epic quest level checks. I looked up each epic and looked for the final or as close to the final turn-in as possible. Adding a lvl 46 check to this part of each epic will guarantee only lvl 46+ characters can complete epic quest. This would also follow EQ nerf history more accurately as it will stop further hand-ins from being given to pre-46 characters without affecting people who did this before the (non classic) change being proposed here was announced.

Note: This is purely a suggestion. There was no research about whether or not these quest had this during classic because of the scarcity of information available on the subject. Though, in my opinion, this is closer to the dev intention than adding level requirements to items. Twinking is and always will be what set EQ apart from a lot of other MMO's and games. It is also one of the key things that I sorely miss whenever I try out a new game and notice level requirements on every piece of gear.



Bard: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give Page 24 top, page 24 bottom, page 25 and Forpar’s Lute to Baldric Slezaf, receive Singing Short Sword

Cleric: [Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in] Give Orb to Avatar of Water – receive Water Sprinkler of Nem Ankh

Druid: [Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in] Give the Elaborate Scimitar and cleansed spirits to Xanuusus the Treant in North Karana, to receive the Nature Walkers Scimitar

Enchanter: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give the Bundle of Staves to Jeb Lumsed (a sarnak imitator) in Burning Woods to get the Staff of the Serpent!

Magician: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Go to the Master of Elements and give him the four Elements. Receive Spell: Summon Orb.

Monk: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Turn in Book of Celestial Fists and Demon Fangs to sane Kaiaren to receive the monk epic, Celestial Fists.

Necromancer: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give Gkzzallk in a Box to Kazen for Scythe of the Shadowed Soul

Paladin: Unnecessary since final turn-in is in a lvl 46+ only zone. (PoF)

Ranger: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give Telin Darkforest Refined Ancient Sword...spawning Faelin Bloodbriar, give her Refined Ancient Sword receiving Swiftwind
-----(Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give Xanuusus Emerald of Corruption and Refined Mithril Blade recieving Earthcaller

Rogue: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) - Turn in General's Pouch, Jagged Diamond Dagger, and Cazic Quill to Stanos Herkanor and recieve Ragebringer!

Shadowknight: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give Lhranc's Coin to Marl and receive Innoruuk's Curse

Shaman: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Take Scale to Spirit Sentinel wolf in Emerald Jungle by the pond to receive your epic!

Warrior: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give Note and Spiroc Wingblade to Kargek and Receive Red Scabbard

Wizard: (Add lvl46 requirement to hand-in) Give the bag to Solomen, receive the Staff of the Four

[ergo]

Unfortunately they do not care about people that did this before the patch. It was one of the questions asked by Ele and the response was it will treat it as if you had nothing in your hand if you are not lv 46.

As Mudcrush deleveled on live, he was still able to wield his epic at level 10. He was not able to CLICK the epic, but wearing it was never a problem. Anyone that had the item could wield it. That is classic.

They know it is classic, they do not care.

[Rararboker]

Yeah, I was one of the first posters in this thread...

They said, when I asked, that they chose this choice because of a lack of other options.

[ergo]

Just prevent MQing, let me use it if I have it already :) /solved

[AzzarTheGod]

Just prevent MQing, let me use it if I have it already :) /solved

Already asked, and Haynar trolled me over it. No other staff have commented on why existing epics can't be grandfathered in at least on Blue.

Great job asking a useless question on the cast tonight though whoever that was. :rolleyes: It was already a gone conclusion that epics wouldn't be doable or usable below level 46.

We were trying to get existing epics grandfathered in since people had already invested countless hours and plat into their twinks to enjoy the game with the way they wanted to, in a very classic way. This would have been the most relevant question to get an answer to at this point.

I asked directly in this thread why not allow existing Blue epics to be grandfathered in, and was trolled by staff for it. Would have been nice to corner them on the stream when they are on the spot and have them explain why grandfathering in Blue epics is not acceptable as people have already dedicated time for several years into achieving their twink BIS epic pieces.

Oh well.

[jaybone]

Already asked, and Haynar trolled me over it. No other staff have commented on why existing epics can't be grandfathered in at least on Blue.

Great job asking a useless question on the cast tonight though whoever that was. :rolleyes: It was already a gone conclusion that epics wouldn't be doable or usable below level 46.

We were trying to get existing epics grandfathered in since people had already invested countless hours and plat into their twinks to enjoy the game with the way they wanted to, in a very classic way. This would have been the most relevant question to get an answer to at this point.

I asked directly in this thread why not allow existing Blue epics to be grandfathered in, and was trolled by staff for it. Would have been nice to corner them on the stream when they are on the spot and have them explain why grandfathering in Blue epics is not acceptable as people have already dedicated time for several years into achieving their twink BIS epic pieces.

Oh well.

You seem really mad

[JDFriend99]

Why is the patch not happening yet? It was talked about and posted late August? Is it still occuring?

[JDFriend99]

Actually I can. The point was - epics should be nerfed because you cant use the effect on them before 46.

You cannot use the effect of proc weapons for the same reason. It is not designed to work before that level, so clearly the item is, by design, not for anyone under that level, if you use the same reasoning given above.

I am sorry you failed to see this. It does not matter how the item is obtained, if the item does not work before X level, then it shouldn't be equiped, if you use the same reasoning.

I am simply applying her logic and reason to other items based on the identical criteria.

Ok maybe I didn't articulate well what I meant. I mean quested items be it epics and items that take a long amount of time to complete quests on may need to be required the lvl or above of the requirement to even start the quest.

What I mean is if you can't efficiently do the quest at 1, you can't expect that item to proc at 1. When I said player made, dropped or bought weapons, I mean those drop are tradeable and have always been lvl1 proc, 20, 30, 34, 40, 44, 46... etc.

I brought the post in replying to someone saying all items shouldn't proc then till 46. That's absurd. You can't compare and epic to say a tstaff or smoldering brand. Smoldering brand drops in the hole. Off 40+ mobs... yet procs 14dd. Do you wanna be 46 using smoldering brand, or an epic or class line type item of your lvl?

That was my comment. I thought making epics 46+ to use, not equip, use...would be good. I don't really think I want a lvl10 cleric w his sprinkler. Seems rediculously not tradional.

[AzzarTheGod]

That was my comment. I thought making epics 46+ to use, not equip, use...would be good. I don't really think I want a lvl10 cleric w his sprinkler. Seems rediculously not tradional.

Don't care. People invested time under the current classic system to get their epic and make their twinks.

Blue epics should be grandfathered in as equippable pre-46.

Any bigots care to explain why this should not be the case after all these years?

[JDFriend99]

Don't care. People invested time under the current classic system to get their epic and make their twinks.

Blue epics should be grandfathered in as equippable pre-46.

Any bigots care to explain why this should not be the case after all these years?



Dude read my post... please before you keep arguing with me and calling me now a bigot. Where did i ever say cannot equip? I said proc... Why should a lvl 1-20 be able to epic rez or proc rogue epic etc, or shaman dot, at lvl 1? That's fair u tell me now? So if i entered lguk at lvl 24 with my epic and owned every mob there, thats ok? That's classic? Proc's man procs or clicks, not equip. They can equip it all they want i had said, seemed fair do the work on mains, get a twink w uber stats on item. But proc'ing or clicking dots/dd/rez etc at lvl 1... i dont think any mob in the game under 45 can compete. Seems an unfair advantage vs players that legitemately crawl up the ranks using what they have. Am i wrong then? Was that classic? Because on Myong Mistmoore and Drinal back then, i dont think i ever grouped or ran into ever... and lvl 15-20 with his epic, unless they delvld themselves... which... unless your pvp'ing... seems stupid. The only exception i could see is delvling to 50 or 51 from 52+ to farm naggy etc.

Why anyone would ever unding from 46+ to yield a epic is beyond me.

I have my opinion and that is all i posted. I am no one, merely offering my view like the other 300+ players that comment.

[JDFriend99]

Already asked, and Haynar trolled me over it. No other staff have commented on why existing epics can't be grandfathered in at least on Blue.

Great job asking a useless question on the cast tonight though whoever that was. :rolleyes: It was already a gone conclusion that epics wouldn't be doable or usable below level 46.

We were trying to get existing epics grandfathered in since people had already invested countless hours and plat into their twinks to enjoy the game with the way they wanted to, in a very classic way. This would have been the most relevant question to get an answer to at this point.

I asked directly in this thread why not allow existing Blue epics to be grandfathered in, and was trolled by staff for it. Would have been nice to corner them on the stream when they are on the spot and have them explain why grandfathering in Blue epics is not acceptable as people have already dedicated time for several years into achieving their twink BIS epic pieces.

Oh well.

You know what i see? Quite honestly here, i see a guy forgetting he plays here as a gift.... and not an entitlement. You feel your owed something? Have you designed anything here? Do you take the staff out to lunch or watch their kids while they work on code for us?

Tell me again why you feel so important as it absolutely must be your way?

Your not gonna like me bro... I was once 59 few yrs back. I was in a end game raiding guild here, had done all my work etc to get to isle and my drops from hate fear etc. You know what happened to me?

One day Rogean patches a nerf, half dmg on fear kites and reduced pet dmg... I just got my awesome necro pet, didn't buy it no... my guild gave it to me. Because uber guilds can do that. Know what i did, after 2 days... quit.

I quit, i like fear kiting, not root rotting and if i couldn't do that i quit.

If you don't like things he does... simple quit

Don't expect your opinion to sway the server. Who are you? A player... nothing else.

i learned in my 39 yrs experience... This here, is a gift. Hell if i had couple hundred grand in the bank and not 488.00 till payday like i do or less always, id donate 1000.00 to them. For the privilege of being able to log in here and enjoy the game the way i remember it.

Just asking you to take a step back maybe, like i had to. And realize WE as a whole, aren't entitled to a damn thing. No one today as a youth or anything is entitled to a damn thing. This here is certainly only a gift, made possible by Rogean and his team. And as such if he wanted to pull the plug tomorrow, guess what... he can. Not you, not me, only HE.

So ease up on bashing everyone's comments because they don't configure into your idea you want. It's a forum... and that's what forums are for.

[LostCause]

Dude read my post... please before you keep arguing with me and calling me now a bigot. Where did i ever say cannot equip? I said proc... Why should a lvl 1-20 be able to epic rez or proc rogue epic etc, or shaman dot, at lvl 1? That's fair u tell me now? So if i entered lguk at lvl 24 with my epic and owned every mob there, thats ok? That's classic? Proc's man procs or clicks, not equip. They can equip it all they want i had said, seemed fair do the work on mains, get a twink w uber stats on item. But proc'ing or clicking dots/dd/rez etc at lvl 1... i dont think any mob in the game under 45 can compete. Seems an unfair advantage vs players that legitemately crawl up the ranks using what they have. Am i wrong then? Was that classic? Because on Myong Mistmoore and Drinal back then, i dont think i ever grouped or ran into ever... and lvl 15-20 with his epic, unless they delvld themselves... which... unless your pvp'ing... seems stupid. The only exception i could see is delvling to 50 or 51 from 52+ to farm naggy etc.

Why anyone would ever unding from 46+ to yield a epic is beyond me.


I have my opinion and that is all i posted. I am no one, merely offering my view like the other 300+ players that comment.


none of the clicks on epics worked at low lvl.... lol or procs.

[Tethler]

people have already dedicated time for several years into achieving their twink BIS epic pieces.


If it's taken you years to complete your twink you should be 46+ already.

[AzzarTheGod]

If it's taken you years to complete your twink you should be 46+ already.

Bigot. Different play styles, and different goals.

"I want to min-max and powergame to zerg end-game content so everyone should aspire to do the same thing as me"

Classic bigotry in action.

[wormed]

Bigot. Different play styles, and different goals.

"I want to min-max and powergame to zerg end-game content so everyone should aspire to do the same thing as me"

Classic bigotry in action.

Did the word "bigot" show up on your word-of-the-day calendar? Because it's really not the proper word to use.

EDIT: Oops, I guess I'm a GRAMMAR BIGOT.

[AzzarTheGod]

Did the word "bigot" show up on your word-of-the-day calendar? Because it's really not the proper word to use.

EDIT: Oops, I guess I'm a GRAMMAR BIGOT.

I can go into explicit detail as to why its the precise word to use.

And no you are not a grammar bigot.

[wormed]

I can go into explicit detail as to why its the precise word to use.

And no you are not a grammar bigot.

No, it really isn't but if you want to debate with yourself on why you feel it's the proper word to use, feel free.

You sound like someone who'd talk to himself in his mother's dark basement.

[Messie]

This thread has stayed on topic and is certainly producing useful discussion.

[AzzarTheGod]

No, it really isn't but if you want to debate with yourself on why you feel it's the proper word to use, feel free.

You sound like someone who'd talk to himself in his mother's dark basement.

Get me the greenlight and I'll gladly take you to school on the topics in question.

[Huggz]

Server is deep down the rabbit hole regardless. Wipe it clean.

[pathius41]

bigot: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc

To be fair he is using the word correctly, also to be fair I guess I am a bigot because I strongly think his ideas are selfish and wrong. but you know, that's just my opinion.

[Tethler]

Bigot. Different play styles, and different goals.

"I want to min-max and powergame to zerg end-game content so everyone should aspire to do the same thing as me"

Classic bigotry in action.

Sounds like you're as bad at trolling as you are at Everquest

[AzzarTheGod]

bigot: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc

To be fair he is using the word correctly, also to be fair I guess I am a bigot because I strongly think his ideas are selfish and wrong. but you know, that's just my opinion.

No one can determine whether you are a raid bigot until you list your reasons for disagreeing with my non-raid cause.

If you don't list your reasons for disagreement no one would be able to determine whether you are contributing to the bigotry or not.

[Aviann]

This thread has stayed on topic and is certainly producing useful discussion.

Haha, that was well placed, man.

[wts]

http://i.imgur.com/yL5tmAe.png

[Toodles]

Why is Water Sprinkler showing level 46 requirement, but you do not meet requirement to cast Reviviscence??

[Samoht]

Why is Water Sprinkler showing level 46 requirement, but you do not meet requirement to cast Reviviscence??

It's 46 to equip, 50 to click.

[Toodles]

It's 46 to equip, 50 to click.

Seems totally out of line compared to straight up weapons which can be equipped at 46.
They should adjust all the effects/spells of epics to start at 46 as well.

[Seltius]

Really is frustrating but I guess if that was what they had to do then /shrug Swiftwind and Earthcaller will just stay in my bags on my ranger and ill never bother logging him in again.

[ergo]

Seems totally out of line compared to straight up weapons which can be equipped at 46.
They should adjust all the effects/spells of epics to start at 46 as well.

No epic should have a level requirement. You can go to alakhazam right now and see that right now as of today, no epic has a level requirement on it. This is a non-classic nerf to epics because rogues, as that is the only class is really affected.

A shaman cant click his till 46 so not a real problem there. A cleric cannot click theirs till 50 so no a problem there.

A rogue can backstab with it lv 5 and above and do amazing dps +40% haste.

The reason they did it has nothing to do with it being classic. Or having to go planes (see cleric epic walkthrough for the lack of any planar raid required) those were the bs excuses given.

There is more evidence that shrink should work in unrest(and every god damn dungeon) documented on this site than the evidence used to justify the nerf to epics and they still havent fixed that. They even said their was conflicting reports, but decided to nerf epics anyway.

Just understand they are gonna do whatever they wanna do. Classic or not doesn't matter.


http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4066

Ragebringer

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 25
DMG: 15 Dmg Bonus: 26
Backstab DMG: 15
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
STR: +20 DEX: +10 STA: +10 AGI: +10 HP: +100
SV DISEASE: +10 SV MAGIC: +20 SV POISON: +20
Attack: +40 Haste: +40%
Effect: Seething Fury (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 2.5 Size: SMALL
Class: ROG
Race: ALL except ERU HIE TRL OGR IKS
Slot 1, Type 4 (Weapon: General)
Slot 2, Type 20 (Ornamentation)


If they wanted to make the quest undoable by a lv 1, sure I get that. Make the QUEST NPC not talk to you till 46 or eat the dagger if you arent lv 46+ and tried to turn in it, THAT would be classic.

The actual change to the item is bs. They wanted to retroactively nerf everyone with an epic under 46 and that is what they did.

[Ele]

wow, still salty

[ergo]

wow, still salty

Still 100% right.

[Samoht]

Seems totally out of line compared to straight up weapons which can be equipped at 46.
They should adjust all the effects/spells of epics to start at 46 as well.

It's classic, though. With planes participation, epics could only be completed at 46. Despite that, the clickies could only be clicked starting at 50.

[Samoht]

They wanted to retroactively nerf everyone with an epic under 46 and that is what they did.

You are 100% right about one thing, independent of the fact that the rest of your post was just rambling nonsense. This is a nerf to all characters that have purchased MQed epics before they were the appropriate level. This is intended.

It is easy enough to work around, though. Get 46.

[Toodles]

It's classic, though. With planes participation, epics could only be completed at 46. Despite that, the clickies could only be clicked starting at 50.

The issue is magnified by the fact that there is/was no conclusive evidence to support the change to make epics have a level equip requirement.

AND that they waited all these years to implement it.
AND they only did it to introduce some 'balance' to the server.

If balance was an issue, then maybe they should have never implemented MQs.


So after all this, the least they could do would be amend the casts /effects on weapons to match their equip level. This attempt to honor 'classic' is so laughable it's sickening.

[Samoht]

The issue is magnified by the fact that there is/was no conclusive evidence to support the change to make epics have a level equip requirement.

AND that they waited all these years to implement it.
AND they only did it to introduce some 'balance' to the server.

If balance was an issue, then maybe they should have never implemented MQs.

This is an on-going project.


So after all this, the least they could do would be amend the casts /effects on weapons to match their equip level.

Not classic. Not even in the spirit of classic. Not going to happen.

[Kutsumo]

Really is frustrating but I guess if that was what they had to do then /shrug Swiftwind and Earthcaller will just stay in my bags on my ranger and ill never bother logging him in again.

Awwwwww :(:(:(:(:(:( Poor fella


The reason they did it has nothing to do with it being classic. Or having to go planes (see cleric epic walkthrough for the lack of any planar raid required) those were the bs excuses given.

Again, here is the direct quote. "Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals."

He's not saying that all epics require planar travel. He's saying that they feel you should be POWERFUL ENOUGH to cross interplanar portals before attaining your epic. Your statement in no way invalidates this.

[ergo]

The issue is magnified by the fact that there is/was no conclusive evidence to support the change to make epics have a level equip requirement.


I just posted a CURRENT post from alakhazam showing no level requirement on the ITEM itself.

The check should have been the NPC, that the devs fault for not fixing this 6 years ago and letting the MQ market run wild.

They should not have added a non-classic or even current level requirement to an item when it never existed and still to this day does not exist, again check the zam.com ragebringer item page. There is no discussion, this is a fact. Period.

[ergo]

Awwwwww :(:(:(:(:(:( Poor fella



Again, here is the direct quote. "Additionally, we feel that acquiring an epic weapon should only be possible when a player has become powerful enough to cross interplanar portals."

He's not saying that all epics require planar travel. He's saying that they feel you should be POWERFUL ENOUGH to cross interplanar portals before attaining your epic. Your statement in no way invalidates this.

"We feel" not "It was classic." And again, this means to COMPLETE the quest GOING FORWARD, not add a level requirement to an item that doesnt have a level requirement and never had a level requirement on live.

[ergo]

You are 100% right about one thing, independent of the fact that the rest of your post was just rambling nonsense. This is a nerf to all characters that have purchased MQed epics before they were the appropriate level. This is intended.

It is easy enough to work around, though. Get 46.

Please specify which parts you consider rambling. The link to the item? The item itself? The possible fixes that dont involve retroactive nerfs that never existed in live and still dont to this day? Be specific please.

[Ele]

Still 100% right.

Still 100% not your server.

[ergo]

Still 100% not your server.

Still never claimed it was my server. You keep using this as if its some magical excuse.

"It's their ball and they can just take it and go home" as if that makes it okay, true as it is.

I can still voice concerns in a reasonable way. I am not talking shit, in fact I have been quite calm, yet passionate about this because I care. I have even pointed out ways to accomplish what they seem to be saying without a retroactive nerf, unless this was required for red - which I couldn't care less about.

I would just like an honest up front reason that isn't bullshit. Again, their statement to justify this explains why going forward, the NPCs wont/shouldn't have accept/ed the items if you are under 46, but zero reasons why every single non 46 lv character MUST NOT BE ABLE TO equip the epic until 46.

Again, you could de-level yourself to 5 and still equip your epic on live - Mudcrush did it on Nameless. ( think he stopped at 10-11 iirc) He had stacks and stacks of corpses and releveled his char with full VP gear because he could.

If you had it, you could equip it - period. That's classic. That's how it should be if you are gonna claim to be a 'classic everquest' server.

[am0n]

I'd still like to see them remove MQ on Epic quests. Make the players do the quest instead of buying it. It'd also help people who want to do the quest instead of buying it, since people won't be camping mobs solely for the intent of trying to sell the item.

[Itap]

Still never claimed it was my server. You keep using this as if its some magical excuse.

"It's their ball and they can just take it and go home" as if that makes it okay, true as it is.

I can still voice concerns in a reasonable way. I am not talking shit, in fact I have been quite calm, yet passionate about this because I care. I have even pointed out ways to accomplish what they seem to be saying without a retroactive nerf, unless this was required for red - which I couldn't care less about.

I would just like an honest up front reason that isn't bullshit. Again, their statement to justify this explains why going forward, the NPCs wont/shouldn't have accept/ed the items if you are under 46, but zero reasons why every single non 46 lv character MUST NOT BE ABLE TO equip the epic until 46.

Again, you could de-level yourself to 5 and still equip your epic on live - Mudcrush did it on Nameless. ( think he stopped at 10-11 iirc) He had stacks and stacks of corpses and releveled his char with full VP gear because he could.

If you had it, you could equip it - period. That's classic. That's how it should be if you are gonna claim to be a 'classic everquest' server.

After scrolling through the last few pages of this thread, do you realize that this is not RnF? If you want to rant about how unhappy you are with this change, take it to the proper place.

[Mudslinger]

Cry more

[Samoht]

I just posted a CURRENT post from alakhazam showing no level requirement on the ITEM itself.

It also shows two augs. Are you advocating that we should have augments?

Since you asked for it, here are more examples of the nonsense from your other post:

no epic has a level requirement on it.

I had one of these (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=31548) on live. It clearly has a level requirement.

This is a non-classic nerf to epics because rogues, as that is the only class is really affected.

Are you implying that people weren't MQing Swiftwind (http://wiki.project1999.com/Swiftwind) onto ranger alts? Also, you seem to be in denial about the raw power people were getting from the stats on epic MQs, despite the fact that they could not click them.

A rogue can backstab with it lv 5

No, they cannot backstab until level 10. (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rogue#Combat_Skills)

The reason they did it has nothing to do with it being classic.

Can you prove this? Can you post any evidence whatsoever that proves beyond any doubt that epic quests were able to be completed before level 46?

If they wanted to make the quest undoable by a lv 1, sure I get that. Make the QUEST NPC not talk to you till 46 or eat the dagger if you arent lv 46+ and tried to turn in it, THAT would be classic.

Ok, but what do you do about ones that already exist? You don't seem to have thought this through very well.

[Seltius]

wow, still salty

I find it interesting that you would post something like this Ele considering how hard you work to make things on P99 more classic instead of less.

[Seltius]

It also shows two augs. Are you advocating that we should have augments?

Since you asked for it, here are more examples of the nonsense from your other post:



I had one of these (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=31548) on live. It clearly has a level requirement.



Are you implying that people weren't MQing Swiftwind (http://wiki.project1999.com/Swiftwind) onto ranger alts? Also, you seem to be in denial about the raw power people were getting from the stats on epic MQs, despite the fact that they could not click them.



No, they cannot backstab until level 10. (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rogue#Combat_Skills)



Can you prove this? Can you post any evidence whatsoever that proves beyond any doubt that epic quests were able to be completed before level 46?



Ok, but what do you do about ones that already exist? You don't seem to have thought this through very well.

Fatestealer wasn't even in game in classic so your argument is invalid using that as an example. By that point they had implemented level requirements for gear.

Yes I am one of those who MQ swiftwind and actually earthcaller on my level 30 ranger on B99. Not really to play him just to sit there in full tolans and have GMs run by and give him illusions like High Elf and Troll and get constant tells for SoW while I chatted with friends. I was trying to get back to EC after helping someone track Quill and made the mistake of using swamp pot it didn't work out well for me lol to say the least.

I also had my epic pre46 on live on an alt with help from some friends and multiquests. I have to find my old HP computer and get SS off it but I do have SS from that time period. Monk epic consisted of looting fang from Xeno after he was killed. Then having someone else MQ the book from Skyfire with you. Raster was probably the hardest part back then with a MQ of the fights. KC was camped constantly so that pipe was easy and the Chardok pipe I don't remember how I got that one. I was actually getting some xp in the ruins while trying to get Brother Balatin to spawn back then.


Easiest and fairest fix would have just been to change all of the effects to not work until 46-51 Which may have been the case on live because I know monks couldn't click their epics prior to like somewhere in the 46-50 range.

But at this point I'm just moping so ignore me. Its not like I play on blue anymore I log in occasionally to talk to friends. I can do that with my epics bagged. Its done and we will just have to deal with it.

[Samoht]

Fatestealer wasn't even in game in classic so your argument is invalid using that as an example. By that point they had implemented level requirements for gear.

Fatestealer was an epic that had a level requirement. He did not specify Kunark epics.

I also had my epic pre46 on live on an alt with help from some friends and multiquests. I have to find my old HP computer and get SS off it but I do have SS from that time period. Monk epic consisted of looting fang from Xeno after he was killed. Then having someone else MQ the book from Skyfire with you. Raster was probably the hardest part back then with a MQ of the fights. KC was camped constantly so that pipe was easy and the Chardok pipe I don't remember how I got that one. I was actually getting some xp in the ruins while trying to get Brother Balatin to spawn back then.

Again, specifying the time line would be important.

Easiest and fairest fix would have just been to change all of the effects to not work until 46-51

Are you proposing a non-classic change as an alternative to a change you deem not classic? Also, to clarify, what you're saying is that you don't think the worn affects should be active until some arbitrary level between 46-51 (hint, the number you are looking for is 50)? I don't even know if that's possible.

But at this point I'm just moping so ignore me. Its not like I play on blue anymore I log in occasionally to talk to friends. I can do that with my epics bagged. Its done and we will just have to deal with it.

If you were able to pay for epics on a twink, why can you not afford to buy PL to 46? Or even, I don't know, go out and get the levels yourself?

[Rararboker]

Problem with removing MQ it's that their are legitimate uses for it. None of the guild wizards at Phinny when he drops the staff? Np, MQ it to a guildy when he gets online.

[Man0warr]

They did it because Brad said in an interview on stream that they never intended for non-planar characters to have epics. They never went through with the change on Live but that's probably enough evidence for Rogean and Nilbog.

[Ele]

I find it interesting that you would post something like this Ele considering how hard you work to make things on P99 more classic instead of less.

There are at least two different ways of doing bug reports and seeking changes to the server. Repeatedly calling out devs in patch notes, bug reports, or general chat is not conducive to the desired outcome.

I do not agree with the epic change either, but at the same time I can understand their rational. I view this server as an on-going beta project (obviates the omg but 4 years of Kunark argument). I provide input where I find it and the devs can do with it what they will. At the end of the day, I can only point things out, I don't have access to code or a say in implementation.

We'll see what raid scene/item/quest modifications occur when (if) a fresh proper timeline server happens.

[Seltius]

There are at least two different ways of doing bug reports and seeking changes to the server. Repeatedly calling out devs in patch notes, bug reports, or general chat is not conducive to the desired outcome.

I do not agree with the epic change either, but at the same time I can understand their rational. I view this server as an on-going beta project (obviates the omg but 4 years of Kunark argument). I provide input where I find it and the devs can do with it what they will. At the end of the day, I can only point things out, I don't have access to code or a say in implementation.

We'll see what raid scene/item/quest modifications occur when (if) a fresh proper timeline server happens.

Prior to this I don't think I have ever said anything negative about the Devs(I will have to search my posts to be sure but don't remember if I did) or what they are trying to do here. This has been an amazing experience being able to play through this era again and hang with friends online that in some cases I haven't gamed with in a decade or longer. Even in this I am just voicing my frustration and not actually calling them out. I tried to at least offer a point of view along with suggestions and a willingness to try and locate proof regarding classic era epics.

I have not resorted to personal attacks on anyone or been abusive in any way on this thread. I also offered to try and dig up proof in the form of SS and logs from almost 15 years ago.


Samoht this is not the argument your looking for. 1.5 epic is in no way classic and the time period I am referring to is classic or I wouldn't post about it.

As far as how or why my ranger has his epics are really not your concern. But to cut off your next post before it happens. I came back after a break earlier this year and some friends(Thank you again Catt and Snack) helped me get all of the pieces for my epics except for 2 main pieces and those I traded a Shield of Rainbow Hues and a Fungi for. Both of which I obtained 2 years ago while raiding and leveling. I log into my ranger now only to chat with friends. I don't really play it to group or farm or xp at all.

[Samoht]

the time period I am referring to is classic or I wouldn't post about it.

The likelihood of you forgetting exactly when you finished your monk epic is much higher than you having a monk epic pre-46 during the Kunark era.

[Ele]

Prior to this I don't think I have ever said anything negative about the Devs(I will have to search my posts to be sure but don't remember if I did) or what they are trying to do here. This has been an amazing experience being able to play through this era again and hang with friends online that in some cases I haven't gamed with in a decade or longer. Even in this I am just voicing my frustration and not actually calling them out. I tried to at least offer a point of view along with suggestions and a willingness to try and locate proof regarding classic era epics.

I have not resorted to personal attacks on anyone or been abusive in any way on this thread. I also offered to try and dig up proof in the form of SS and logs from almost 15 years ago.


Wasn't directing that particular comment to you. :p You quoted my salty post, which is what I was referencing.

[Seltius]

The likelihood of you forgetting exactly when you finished your monk epic is much higher than you having a monk epic pre-46 during the Kunark era.

Your talking about Kunark remember the classic timeline runs through velious for all purposes here. Your right I didn't have my epic MQ in Kunark but towards the middle of Velious. There are a couple very good reasons I remember the time period but that I wont go into with you. You are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point Samoht. Also linking and pointing to a 1.5 epic for level requirement is nowhere within the realm of any timeline we are discussing. Show me a 'Classic' Era item with a level requirement 'to equip' and I will find and show you the prenerf version of it. The 1.5 Epic wasn't introduced until Omens of War so you have missed a lot of content that you could have used as an attempt to make a valid argument.


Ele that was why it kind of surprised me when I saw your post. But yes I can agree with you that its their box but I personally have fun logging in and talking to my friends and appreciate what they have done. You are normally one of the more even keeled people posting about classic content here and I respect that about you. Thank you for the clarification.


Folks I am really sorry for the numerous posts I made in this thread. I felt strongly about this and let it get away from me. Wont happen again here.

[Samoht]

You are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point Samoht.

And you have a tendency towards defending dumbasses just for the sake of defending dumbasses. Let me show you why you should stop. Here's the direct quote from ergo (again):

No epic should have a level requirement. You can go to alakhazam right now and see that right now as of today, no epic has a level requirement on it.

Time-line = right now (emphasis = mine). Not Kunark era. He goes on to post this:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4066

Ragebringer

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 25
DMG: 15 Dmg Bonus: 26
Backstab DMG: 15
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
STR: +20 DEX: +10 STA: +10 AGI: +10 HP: +100
SV DISEASE: +10 SV MAGIC: +20 SV POISON: +20
Attack: +40 Haste: +40%
Effect: Seething Fury (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 2.5 Size: SMALL
Class: ROG
Race: ALL except ERU HIE TRL OGR IKS
Slot 1, Type 4 (Weapon: General)
Slot 2, Type 20 (Ornamentation)

Please tell me you see the problem with using this as the example. Fatestealer is the appropriate response.

[ergo]

And you have a tendency towards defending dumbasses just for the sake of defending dumbasses. Let me show you why you should stop. Here's the direct quote from ergo (again):



Time-line = right now (emphasis = mine). Not Kunark era. He goes on to post this:



Please tell me you see the problem with using this as the example. Fatestealer is the appropriate response.

It's called being intellectually dishonest. That's why. Fatestealers aren't in game. I didn't say 1.5 or 2.0 epics, I said epics, in context with P99.

You are either playing stupid, or you are stupid for that response and that was his point.

[Samoht]

Fatestealers aren't in game.

And neither are augs, worn attack power/haste (the mechanic is from worn AFFECTS like aura of battle or seething fury, not worn stats themselves), or backstab modifiers, but the data you pasted in clearly shows them. You used a terrible example that didn't support your case at all.

Holy crap you two don't understand irony. Even if I spelled it out directly in the post you quoted.

[AzzarTheGod]

I would just like an honest up front reason that isn't bullshit. Again, their statement to justify this explains why going forward, the NPCs wont/shouldn't have accept/ed the items if you are under 46, but zero reasons why every single non 46 lv character MUST NOT BE ABLE TO equip the epic until 46.



This. I can't even find the words to agree more without bashing staff.

Its a tough situation with absolutely no rhetoric or logic behind it and the players can barely speak on the subject because it was such a bad call, that its difficult to convey constructively when such a destructive decision was made here on the existing epics people achieved.

[Samoht]

"Achieved." Buying your epic in EC is such an achievement.

[pasi]

This thread is still going?

You don't have to stray outside these forums to see that epics were able to be completed by level 1s on live.

http://i44.tinypic.com/23vxkpy.jpg

The decision to change epics to level 46+ was made for a variety of reasons. Simply because something existed on live servers does not mean that it will be the case here if it conflicts with the vision of the server.

At the end of the day, you're playing for free on someone else's box.

[pharmakos]

^ note that that is a PoP or later era screenshot

[Ele]

^ note that that is a PoP or later era screenshot

The picture is helpful in some sense even if PoP+. People went and asked McQuaid if level 1s/sub-46 should be able to complete epics. He said it wasn't intended, but based on the picture/story that goes with it, even in PoP+ you could MQ/complete at least some epics on sub-46 characters. Unless something changed epics to the quests so they could be done at these levels during/after Luclin/PoP, then it was always in. That isn't to count out some new quest code messing up old world/kunark level checks at some point.

[pharmakos]

That isn't to count out some new quest code messing up old world/kunark level checks at some point.

that would be my guess.

[silo32]

at least revert this so epics that are equipped pre 46 still work unless you die and you can't re equip.... like the old dw wyrm slayer's... right now if you have an epic equipped toon attack anything its invulnerable... give those of us that spent that plat or farmed the items to make a toon ( very time consuming ) get at least one shot to use it...

my body is ready

[pharmakos]

you farmed enough plat to buy an epic, but don't think you'll ever get to level 46 for a chance to use it?

[nina]

So you cant hit anything with the cleric epic pre-46. Do the rest of the stats work? the +100 mana +25 wisdom etc?