Rules Decent Players should abide by...

[Zenren]

As a returning player, having been back to P99 for about a month, I have noticed that the game can be a struggle at lower levels, especially if you don't have any gear. What makes the game even more challenging are the twinks and people power leveling in the game, that monopolize or take the camps lower levels needs. This is not the Everquest I remember and I think in part the reason this is such a big problem in P99 is because we don't have the luxury of starting a new server because things are crowded. With that in mind I thought I might remind people how things worked in Classic EQ or at least how I remember it, maybe I'm wrong.

1) You gave up a camp to a group of people appropriate level that wanted/needed to level there, especially if you gained no experience from the camp. If you needed a specific mob, then you made it clear they could level there, but you were camping the "boss".

2) If you were power leveling someone and additional people showed up, you either let the other people join the PL group or you moved somewhere else so they could use that spot. We didn't believe that just because we had reached 60th that meant we had the right to be selfish, rather it was our chance to help other people out that were leveling up.

3) You let people join your group regardless of what gear they had or what class they were. We didn't worry as much about "gimp gear" or "that troll shadow knight getting all the xp!" We considered ourselves a community and tried to help each other out.

4) We tried to follow a need before greed rule, in fact EQ was where that term came from. This means that if a cleric item dropped at a camp and a cleric was there, you let the cleric have the item if he needed it. If they didn't you rolled.

5) You helped your fellow player out. I don't know how many times I was running back to my corpse, ten zones away, and suddenly a "so and so wants to rez you" message popped up. No one asked for money or needed anything in return, they were just doing what was considered the right thing in that community. Random buffs were common at that time. As a gnome rogue I had people constantly buff me as I ran by (I'm sure sympathy played a large part).

6) We weren't fan bois. We didn't believe everything was alright and we called people out on their BS. If someone was doing something wrong the community addressed it. If someone ninja looted, it was just a matter of time before people found out. If a guild consistently behaved poorly, then they were treated accordingly. People didn't try to push these things under the bed or act like they weren't happening, they addressed them in the moment.

Okay... so those are the things I remember, maybe I'm waxing nostalgic, maybe not. However these were the rules that guided me throughout the rest of my MMO days. I remembered these things and I could tell people who had played EQ because, more often than not, they were following these rules as well.

Also, I know more people than not try to be decent, but I also know that a lot of people have forgotten these things. Maybe it is overpopulation that drives people to behave poorly, poverty can drive people to do crazy things, however this doesn't mean that we should forget that this is a game and that we're here to enjoy it. I try to respect everyone and give everyone the chance to be a part of the game, because that's how I learned to play. I know a lot of people feel the same way.

[indiscriminate_hater]

i never once saw need before greed in classic live

[Stormfists]

i never once saw need before greed in classic live

Poor you.

[Lojik]

I don't necessarily agree with these but I can see the merit behind the thought...except nbg is retarded

[Champion_Standing]

The Internet in general was a different place back then. People seemed to care a lot more about their rep and took the "community" a lot more seriously than people do pretty much anywhere now.

When I first came here I was just excited to play classic EQ, people were decent in general, let the server know about rotting guises etc. But when we started raiding..... Oh yes.... Shit show would be putting it lightly, the freaking GMs lost it because the players were such lunatics. A few years of that kind of end game, plus open account selling created a greedy and viscous rule lawyering population. Nobody will ever follow any of these "rules" on p99.

[maurilax]

Never understood this idea in EQ
4) We tried to follow a need before greed rule, in fact EQ was where that term came from. This means that if a cleric item dropped at a camp and a cleric was there, you let the cleric have the item if he needed it. If they didn't you rolled.


most items are droppable which means if a 1k item drops everyone could use that money to get value from the drop they were there for.

[fastboy21]

OP sounds like you judging people. how indecent.

[Pipip]

A few days ago, a level 60 rogue was looking for Yendar Starpyre for his epic. I saw a level 60 mage engage the npc, and then demand 3000 plat to reset the mob, or else he was going to kill him and the guy would have to wait 8 hours for a repop.

I wish more people would live by these decency rules, but I doubt it

[Zenren]

Fastboy21- I am, no sounds like. I'm not the judge not lest ye be judged, kind of person I'm the judge me by what I do as I'm judging you by what you do. In fact judge not lest ye be judged is about calling individuals out on their bad deeds, not making people aware of bad deeds in general.

[Fame]

Can't tell me how to live my life. Why do you hate America and freedom?

[Deckk]

i never once saw need before greed in classic live


Holy cow. Really? That's ALL I EVER saw on Prexus from 99 until 2002.

[Chrig]

I don't remember any of this from classic. That fairy tell server must have been awesome.

[Pint]

Great rules, too bad this is p99 = \

[Gadwen]

First post in a long time.

The problem I think is that there are really two main types of players, people who just want to make friends, have fun and following the rules you listed facilitate that. Then you have the "hardcore" players, people that want to be in the best guild and have the best gear. People from group 2 quickly realize that they need to step on people to accomplish what they want.

I guess its like a downward spiral for the people from group 1. you start grouping with too many people from group 2 and get screwed over enough times then you develop that same mentality where you feel like you need to step on people and push them around to get what you want out of the game. Happens to the best of us, and when I start feeling like that I know its time to play something else lol.

[fastboy21]

Fastboy21- I am, no sounds like. I'm not the judge not lest ye be judged, kind of person I'm the judge me by what I do as I'm judging you by what you do. In fact judge not lest ye be judged is about calling individuals out on their bad deeds, not making people aware of bad deeds in general.

yes. except you are pre-supposing that your ideas are morally superior to others. and they aren't. folks who don't want to do NBG are not indecent, and you are wrong for suggesting that they are.

[Zenren]

yes. except you are pre-supposing that your ideas are morally superior to others. and they aren't. folks who don't want to do NBG are not indecent, and you are wrong for suggesting that they are.

I'm going by social norms. If you're greed comes before someone else's need, then let me be the first to say, you are probably not as nice as you think you are.

[jarshale]

I'm going by social norms. If you're greed comes before someone else's need, then let me be the first to say, you are probably not as nice as you think you are.

Maybe if you live in soviet russia. /ran 0 1000 is fair.

[Madbad]

Dude, Zenren, I must say, your tears have been delicious.

[fastboy21]

I'm going by social norms. If you're greed comes before someone else's need, then let me be the first to say, you are probably not as nice as you think you are.

i don't doubt your sincerity. you are just wrong.

[kremlar]

It's great that you're the archetype that can use the one useful item that drops at your camp, but items can turn into plat which turns into items we all need.

Need before greed does get used on this server pre-40. But after that the shoddy economics and loot distribution of Everquest mixed with endless Kunark take over and you should expect everybody to roll.

[Danth]

NBG loot gets old after the first dozen or so times you see that guy who "needed" something auctioning it off in East Commons a couple hours later. Roll-on-everything might not be ideally preferable, but it's hard to deny that it's less subject to lies and deceit.

A single person wrecking a zone due to power-level would fall under "zone disruption" in the rules. Petition it. Such behavior is pretty universally frowned upon by the community at large as poor etiquette. The folks who do this in populated zones are a small minority.

Some groups discriminate with respect to whom they invite; others don't. P1999 isn't the same as historic Everquest was in this respect, but neither are conditions here the same. We have a community full of players who've spent the past 10 years being conditioned by many online games to treat other players as little more than AI bots. Right or wrong, the general gaming community isn't the same as it was fifteen years ago.

In short, all problems have their causes.

Danth

[Deckk]

I really can't believe other servers weren't NBG loot. Mind = blown.

[theaetatus]

A few days ago, a level 60 rogue was looking for Yendar Starpyre for his epic. I saw a level 60 mage engage the npc, and then demand 3000 plat to reset the mob, or else he was going to kill him and the guy would have to wait 8 hours for a repop.

I wish more people would live by these decency rules, but I doubt it

I find it highly unlikely that a rogue made it to 60 on p99 with no epic.

[ko37qtl]

Outside of friends or guild, I think NBG is unfair at best. All strove for an accomplishment, all should have an equal chance at a payoff. The law of averages will service in the end, with money for the item that wasn't won randomly. You want an item, form your group for that and see if people will join to get it for you. Better yet, call some friends. Otherwise, take your chances.

Although I tend to be pretty open about accepting folks into groups (assuming level appropriate), I don't think there's anything that compels us to invite or anyone to invite me. This isn't the first time I've seen someone try to compel what they thought was ethical behavior beyond the rules. I'd generally benefit by the strict interpretation of your rules. I have a ton of alts for NBG, they're mostly still low level, and I don't have anyone at level cap. Still, a classic phrase springs to mind, although it is weakened with a free to play game: you can tell me how to play when you pay my monthly fee.

[fastboy21]

I really can't believe other servers weren't NBG loot. Mind = blown.

the live server comparison isn't really valid. p99 isn't a live server. if live servers had been locked at kunark for 5 years then they would have become p99 eventually too.

P99 stopped being a real emu server a long time ago...its now an mmo social experiment of what would have happened to classic eq if it never ended. which is still fun!

[Chrig]

I'm going by social norms. If you're greed comes before someone else's need, then let me be the first to say, you are probably not as nice as you think you are.

In that case, everybody on this planet should be driving the cheapest cars so we can give to those more readily that need it.

Shit logic will be shit. Free roll on anything that's not no drop.

[Zenren]

Madbad- Dude we get it, you want to troll the post. Cool for you, but please stop disrupting the thread if you don't have anything constructive to add. It's not funny, it's just a bit juvenile and really annoying.

[Madbad]

I think I'm funny.

[Zenren]

I'm willing to concede on the need before greed rolling, just because you're right about people tending to sell items they've "needed" on.

This post was about how things worked and what would ideally be nice to see happen in the game. My main issues these days are with Power Levelers taking camps for a single person, MQers camping items they have no need for, when someone that does need it comes along, especially no drops. I had a guy in Upper Guk refuse to let me loot a no drop for a quest, because it would be "too much of a hassle".

I'm just proposing people acting like decent people and I honestly don't think I'm asking too much. If we can't act like decent people to actual human beings, not AI's or Bots, then what does that say about us as people and a community?

[Madbad]

I'm willing to concede on the need before greed rolling, just because you're right about people tending to sell items they've "needed" on.

This post was about how things worked and what would ideally be nice to see happen in the game. My main issues these days are with Power Levelers taking camps for a single person, MQers camping items they have no need for, when someone that does need it comes along, especially no drops. I had a guy in Upper Guk refuse to let me loot a no drop for a quest, because it would be "too much of a hassle".

I'm just proposing people acting like decent people and I honestly don't think I'm asking too much. If we can't act like decent people to actual human beings, not AI's or Bots, then what does that say about us as people and a community?


You are never going to find the community you are looking for on blue. The place is done. Most folks you are leveling with are on their 5th or 6th alt (even if they say they are new) and can't conceive of anyone having anything less.

If you can handle us scumlords and are decent at making friends, there is still a very open, fresh feel on red. NBG is a thing that actually happens on Red as folks want the people watching their back to be at least as well geared as themselves. Most guilds and groups tend to be much more social and tighter knit.

Also, then we can kill you.

[Champion_Standing]

A few days ago, a level 60 rogue was looking for Yendar Starpyre for his epic. I saw a level 60 mage engage the npc, and then demand 3000 plat to reset the mob, or else he was going to kill him and the guy would have to wait 8 hours for a repop.

I wish more people would live by these decency rules, but I doubt it

name and shame plz

[indiscriminate_hater]

NBG is inherently unfair. in the long run of play time, you should expect to win the same value of droppable loot as anyone else.

the argument that a 500k-gear-twinked person should yield a dropped item worth 1k to an ungeared player is dumb, assuming they put forth the same amount of effort to get that item to drop. in fact, the twinked person likely had a much bigger impact on getting that item to drop than the untwinked player, but the /ran 100 is based on the assumption that everyone in a group is putting forth the same level of effort.

arguing that the twinked person should yield loot to the non- or lesser-twinked player is just arguing for welfare. the twinked player obviously put a lot of time in to get to that level - why should he or she be obligated to help other players, aside from the huge implicit advantage of enabling the group to kill more mobs? some would argue that super-twinked players should have a higher roll modifier than rusty weapon wielding scrubs.

people who play a lot are also more responsible for the relatively easy access to gear via player-to-player transaction. you can camp seafuries for a few hours to get the pp necessary for an FBSS here, but on live that shit would take days.

the "well maybe the twinked player should just be nice" line is too inane to even attack. get out of your fantasy world, you're already in one

[indiscriminate_hater]

Holy cow. Really? That's ALL I EVER saw on Prexus from 99 until 2002.
__________________
P99: Deake - 14 Wood Elf Druid
P99: Grynde - 12 Gnome Warrior
LIVE (Silver): Wuut - 18 Froglok Monk - Vox
Formerly: Deckk D'Arcayne- High Elf Wizard - Prexus <Keepers of the Faith>



funny, the people that seem to push for NBG and other welfare rules always seem to have very low level toons. there's nothing wrong with enjoying EQ at your own pace, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're entitled to gear.

[Swish]

need before greed guys.... need before greed...

http://imageupload.co.uk/images/2015/06/24/cockfight.png

[Troxx]

Unless expressly discussed before time and UNANIMOUSLY agreed upon by all group members (including the new guy that just joined) ...

Hate to say it but the only FAIR way to handle loot is to have everyone random. Everyone contributed in the work - everyone gets a chance to benefit from the drops.

Yeah you might lose out on a good piece of loot or two that you could have really used or upgraded, but at the same time you might also win that Tstaff from KC in the future to re-tool your entire gear set. If it's tradable, anyone capable of benefiting from it (either directly by wearing or indirectly by selling to buy what they DO need) should be allowed to roll on it without getting hated on.

The exception to this imo are epic pieces that drop. If a monk needs KC pipe, don't be a jerk and roll on it to sell the MQ.

[Rickson]

Zenren, you already have a post a lot like this in the starting zone here: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197646

What do you really want to get out of this post? Your perspective is your perspective and most people are just going to argue or laugh. I doubt you are going to rally a bunch of support. Go on red and just kill those that bother you. Or, just have a field day in the RnF forums.

[mystang89]

I agree with the OP on NbG. That said it only works with those of like mind which are fewer and fewer. It's more of an ideal way of thinking. If things were perfect this is how it should work. Unfortunately, things are far from perfect. You get people who do as people have said and need on things and then sell. No one wants to get screwed over so the NbG people start to do the same thing. Like someone already said, it's a vicious cycle that I think will only be temporarily fixed with a wipe. No I don't want a wipe. If everyone was honest I don't think as many people would have a problem with NbG.

[Zenren]

I will just point out that one should look at the nicks of some of the people attacking me regarding this. I mean if you're going to have a nick like "Ihateallpeople" then tell me I'm being idealistic, I'm just going to laugh my head off.

Rickson- Just create some civic consciousness. Maybe point out what it was like and how it's different so perhaps some people might aspire to a higher level of conduct, remember how things were and say, "hey those weren't bad times, why don't we do that again" rather than "I'm a bitter ol' fart now. Don't ask me to help no one! GRAaah!"

[Zenren]

Oh and I was in a zone today and pointed out that someone was camping a spot that had one boss he needed, killing everything in sight, while a group of level appropriate players were camping a worse spot because he was there. You know what he said, "Hey tell them to come over here. I just want this boss, this is all boring anyways." Should I have just let it be and not said anything? If there's something that could be different am I supposed to let that go? Is that how change occurs?

See that's the point, things have been the way they are for so long, maybe someone needs to remind people of the renaissance of MMOs. That's what those days were in many ways, the time when we had these idealistic notions of right and wrong, where you were less likely to be cheated in a game, than you were by your cashier. Is that so wrong? And if so why? Are we really trying to advocate a world where the strong bully the weak, or at best take what they can? That's not the kind of world I want to live in or play in.

Yes I've met a lot of nice people, but I also met a lot of idiots who really could care less what their actions are doing to others. The good people outweigh the bad, but the fact is the bad have a much greater impact.

[iruinedyourday]

one simple rule is all you need.

http://media.giphy.com/media/POekkUcKs16gg/giphy.gif

wait.. TWO simple rules.

[Ennewi]

NBG is inherently unfair. in the long run of play time, you should expect to win the same value of droppable loot as anyone else.

the argument that a 500k-gear-twinked person should yield a dropped item worth 1k to an ungeared player is dumb, assuming they put forth the same amount of effort to get that item to drop. in fact, the twinked person likely had a much bigger impact on getting that item to drop than the untwinked player, but the /ran 100 is based on the assumption that everyone in a group is putting forth the same level of effort.

arguing that the twinked person should yield loot to the non- or lesser-twinked player is just arguing for welfare. the twinked player obviously put a lot of time in to get to that level - why should he or she be obligated to help other players, aside from the huge implicit advantage of enabling the group to kill more mobs? some would argue that super-twinked players should have a higher roll modifier than rusty weapon wielding scrubs.

people who play a lot are also more responsible for the relatively easy access to gear via player-to-player transaction. you can camp seafuries for a few hours to get the pp necessary for an FBSS here, but on live that shit would take days.

the "well maybe the twinked player should just be nice" line is too inane to even attack. get out of your fantasy world, you're already in one

https://youtu.be/YUhb0XII93I?t=1m7s

[tizznyres]

Zenren, maybe you played on a utopian live server with a perfect guild and community of players in 1999, but this just isn't how the world works, in an mmorpg or not. Your list of rules strikes me as incredibly preachy and misguided.


1) You gave up a camp to a group of people appropriate level that wanted/needed to level there, especially if you gained no experience from the camp. If you needed a specific mob, then you made it clear they could level there, but you were camping the "boss".

This is almost always the case on P99, unless the person / people holding the camp are actually gaining EXP or items they need from it. Very rarely do people waste their time mass-killing monsters for no reason at all. Try communicating with whoever is there if you feel they are being unfair. If they aren't breaking any server rules, and aren't willing to cooperate, you should probably just accept it.

2) If you were power leveling someone and additional people showed up, you either let the other people join the PL group or you moved somewhere else so they could use that spot. We didn't believe that just because we had reached 60th that meant we had the right to be selfish, rather it was our chance to help other people out that were leveling up.

Very, very rarely will someone who is PLing their friends openly give up a huge portion, up to half, of the EXP they are gaining. This just doesn't make any sense. Part of the reward for leveling a high level character, is the benefit of helping your friends level. If you aren't their friend, please don't be so self-entitled as to expect them to share their time free of charge. This was just as true during classic era as it is on P99. Following your logic, should a player who is paying 1-2k an hour for PLing from a stranger, be just as willing to invite you and share half of this EXP, free of charge?

3) You let people join your group regardless of what gear they had or what class they were. We didn't worry as much about "gimp gear" or "that troll shadow knight getting all the xp!" We considered ourselves a community and tried to help each other out.

There is truth to this, I will agree. But keep in mind, during classic era, there were much fewer twinks and players who had already done the content multiple times. Kunark has been active for over 4 years on P99, and there are many players that know what they want, and want to achieve it quickly. Powergamers like to compose the most efficient groups, and it is perfectly reasonable for them to do so. Look around a bit more, and you will see that there are just as many, if not more, groups that will accept you whatever your class/race combo is, assuming it fills whatever role the group needs.

4) We tried to follow a need before greed rule, in fact EQ was where that term came from. This means that if a cleric item dropped at a camp and a cleric was there, you let the cleric have the item if he needed it. If they didn't you rolled.

This is extremely rare on P99, and was pretty rare during classic era as well, at least in my experience on Xegony and Fennin Ro from 1999-2002. As other people in this thread have stated, almost all items of value in Kunark are trade-able, and can easily go toward funding other items. If you go into pickup groups with strangers on P99 expecting need-before-greed to be the case, you are going to be sorely disappointed almost every time. If you feel this is the only decent way for a group to handle loot drops, make sure to make the loot system very clear well before you, or anyone else invests much time in your party. If you find some like-minded people, and make the NBG system clear beforehand, you can certainly run groups like this on P99. But it is not the understood norm, nor should it be considering the state of the game.

5) You helped your fellow player out. I don't know how many times I was running back to my corpse, ten zones away, and suddenly a "so and so wants to rez you" message popped up. No one asked for money or needed anything in return, they were just doing what was considered the right thing in that community. Random buffs were common at that time. As a gnome rogue I had people constantly buff me as I ran by (I'm sure sympathy played a large part).

Judging by your posts, I don't think you have actually spent all that much time on P99. I can assure you, there are a huge number of players who love helping others out. But there's a time and place for everything. Free rezzes, random buffs, and even free items are extremely commonplace on P99. But you need to not expect it 100% of the time, and be grateful when it happens, not resent every moment that it doesn't. If you really need help for something, and are willing to wait a short while, try making a request post on this forum. Chances are someone will help you before long.

6) We weren't fan bois. We didn't believe everything was alright and we called people out on their BS. If someone was doing something wrong the community addressed it. If someone ninja looted, it was just a matter of time before people found out. If a guild consistently behaved poorly, then they were treated accordingly. People didn't try to push these things under the bed or act like they weren't happening, they addressed them in the moment.

I don't understand what "fan bois" has to do with any of that, but everything else you state here DOES happen on P99. Check the other forums, if people are open assholes, they are called out both in-game, and name-and-shamed on the forums. If people ninja loot, they are called in the zone, reported to their guild, and sometimes even petitioned if the infraction is big enough. Individual players and entire guilds regularly get suspended for "behaving poorly" in all sorts of different ways. Very few people on P99 are "pushing these things under the bed". Stick around, and keep playing, and you will quickly see this to be true.

If you want my advice, stop dwelling on the negatives, and focus on the positives. In my P99 career, which has lasted over 5 years now, I have experienced much more positive interaction with players than negative. That being said, there are always bad apples, and even otherwise very generous and decent players have their bad days.

[Deckk]

funny, the people that seem to push for NBG and other welfare rules always seem to have very low level toons. there's nothing wrong with enjoying EQ at your own pace, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're entitled to gear.


What the hell are you talking about? I'm not pushing for anything. I don't care to be honest. I stated that NBG was all I saw on live servers in 99, so it shocks the hell out of me that people who say they played Classic EQ didn't experience the same.

Relax, man.

[Zenren]

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not pushing for anything. I don't care to be honest. I stated that NBG was all I saw on live servers in 99, so it shocks the hell out of me that people who say they played Classic EQ didn't experience the same.

Relax, man.

I wasn't talking about you LOL... some other people.

[jarshale]

oh you're the same guy who was demanding people let you in their groups. get over it no one has to help you.

[Aviann]

Quit telling me how to live my life.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Just create some civic consciousness. Maybe point out what it was like and how it's different so perhaps some people might aspire to a higher level of conduct, remember how things were and say, "hey those weren't bad times, why don't we do that again" rather than "I'm a bitter ol' fart now. Don't ask me to earn my own gear! GRAaah!"

[Zenren]

oh you're the same guy who was demanding people let you in their groups. get over it no one has to help you.

I wasn't demanding... man you left out 99% of what I said and made one blanket comment to make me look bad. I was talking about one rogue who wouldn't let ANYONE in their group unless they were a cleric or twinked melee. Get it right and don't leave out so many details buddy.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Can't tell me how to live my life. Why do you hate America and freedom?

Hard to dissuade a man from wanting freedom, ain't that right Mr. Calvin?

http://i.imgur.com/FR0E3aF.gif?noredirect

[Aviann]

Hard to dissuade a man from wanting freedom, ain't that right Mr. Calvin?

http://i.imgur.com/FR0E3aF.gif?noredirect

LOL

[Troxx]

I wasn't demanding... man you left out 99% of what I said and made one blanket comment to make me look bad. I was talking about one rogue who wouldn't let ANYONE in their group unless they were a cleric or twinked melee. Get it right and don't leave out so many details buddy.

At the end of the day that's their right to do so. If a twinked out character only wants to xp with other twinks to maximize their time - that's their decision. This isn't to say I agree with that decision, but you see soloing characters do this all the time. Why would that fear kiting necro invite you to xp with him if doing so does nothing but slow down his progress.

For myself? I prefer to meet and hang out with people - even if it slows down my acquisition of pixels.

If that rog was not twinked and as the leader only invited twinks and or necessary classes, my hope is that the twinks and necessary classes gave him the boot for riding their coat tails.

I wouldn't want to be lord and master of eq, but even if I were I wouldn't insist that others play by the set of principles that guide me.

So Zenren ... live and adapt ... but do not enforce your ideals on others. For the most part, p99 has been a great community and place to play. Bad eggs and sour grapes can be found everywhere.

A lot of what you describe = bad eggs.
The way you're behaving = sour grapes.

People don't like to be around either.

[Deadmantis]

Zenren, I feel your pain, really I do. But I think you just need to give up this fight and accept the fact that this server is what it is, and it's not going to change.

Decent players don't need rules to abide by. You're preaching to the choir. These people group with anyone regardless of class or gear. They call out their trains. They buff or bind without blinking an eye. We like to think they make up the majority. These are the people you need to gravitate to and spend most of your time with.

The asshats who shit on other players just because they can, with very little consequences? They don't and they won't play by the rules. They bounce from guild to guild, laugh at the forums, take bans in stride, and blame whatever shit they're trying to pull on Aspergers or the server being stuck in Kunark for too long. Avoid them as much as possible.

[Wfrench1234]

Aside from nbg decent players on this server already do all of the above. /thread

[Llodd]

This is extremely rare on P99, and was pretty rare during classic era as well, at least in my experience on Xegony and Fennin Ro from 1999-2002.

As a former Xegony player I found the opposite to be true. I was euro scum so the different time of playing may have had something to do with it.

read into that what you will.

[Llodd]

Unless expressly discussed before time and UNANIMOUSLY agreed upon by all group members (including the new guy that just joined) ...

Hate to say it but the only FAIR way to handle loot is to have everyone random. Everyone contributed in the work - everyone gets a chance to benefit from the drops.

Yeah you might lose out on a good piece of loot or two that you could have really used or upgraded, but at the same time you might also win that Tstaff from KC in the future to re-tool your entire gear set. If it's tradable, anyone capable of benefiting from it (either directly by wearing or indirectly by selling to buy what they DO need) should be allowed to roll on it without getting hated on.

The exception to this imo are epic pieces that drop. If a monk needs KC pipe, don't be a jerk and roll on it to sell the MQ.

Nah you cant have exceptions if you don't want/like NBG. If it's mqable then there's no reason for all to roll.

[Clark]

Maybe if you live in soviet russia. /ran 0 1000 is fair.

[Clark]

2) If you were power leveling someone and additional people showed up, you either let the other people join the PL group or you moved somewhere else so they could use that spot.

o.O

[myriverse]

Can't tell me how to live my life. Why do you hate America and freedom?
Can't have freedom without telling people how to live their lives.
And it's what America was founded upon. About 80% wanted to stay with England.

And it's been the "American Way" ever since...

[Tiewon Shu]

Never understood this idea in EQ


most items are droppable which means if a 1k item drops everyone could use that money to get value from the drop they were there for.

Because it wasn't about money, it was about helping others succeed in the game. Back in 1999, most of the community shared a bond of brotherhood/sisterhood as gamers where by we simply enjoyed being with each other and made friendships. In game currency had no real value, but the friendships we made did. So when we saw a tranquil staff drop, we didn't look at the item as a 20K in our banks, we looked at it as a weapon that would help our monk friend do more damage when we faced bigger monsters.

Today, there are people like you who cannot grasp the concept of why we play MMORPGs. They place value on an intangible form of currency instead of the friend they may make by following the social aspect of the game design. Hence, need before greed.

[slowpoke68]

Played on Brell from 99-01. NBG was the standard. If someone needed on something they couldn't use that was an upgrade for another member of the group....they would not be invited to any groups by any members of that party again. Also, it is something that would have been mentioned in each member's guild chat, like don't group with this guy, he just did X.

[Tiewon Shu]

NBG is inherently unfair. in the long run of play time, you should expect to win the same value of droppable loot as anyone else.

the argument that a 500k-gear-twinked person should yield a dropped item worth 1k to an ungeared player is dumb, assuming they put forth the same amount of effort to get that item to drop. in fact, the twinked person likely had a much bigger impact on getting that item to drop than the untwinked player, but the /ran 100 is based on the assumption that everyone in a group is putting forth the same level of effort.

arguing that the twinked person should yield loot to the non- or lesser-twinked player is just arguing for welfare. the twinked player obviously put a lot of time in to get to that level - why should he or she be obligated to help other players, aside from the huge implicit advantage of enabling the group to kill more mobs? some would argue that super-twinked players should have a higher roll modifier than rusty weapon wielding scrubs.

people who play a lot are also more responsible for the relatively easy access to gear via player-to-player transaction. you can camp seafuries for a few hours to get the pp necessary for an FBSS here, but on live that shit would take days.

the "well maybe the twinked player should just be nice" line is too inane to even attack. get out of your fantasy world, you're already in one

You are obviously trolling. It's a cute troll, though, like the ones that we used to top our pencil erasers with, lol.

[Tiewon Shu]

...Hate to say it but the only FAIR way to handle loot is to have everyone random...The exception to this imo are epic pieces that drop. If a monk needs KC pipe, don't be a jerk and roll on it to sell the MQ.

So why should there be an exception? Because it would totally suck if someone took an item they could not use but only you can? Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[Tiewon Shu]

Played on Brell from 99-01. NBG was the standard. If someone needed on something they couldn't use that was an upgrade for another member of the group....they would not be invited to any groups by any members of that party again. Also, it is something that would have been mentioned in each member's guild chat, like don't group with this guy, he just did X.

I was on Rodcet Nife and that is how I remembered it to.

[Deckk]

I was on Rodcet Nife and that is how I remembered it to.

Almost wonder if some of the people claiming they played classic didn't actually play classic.

So far Rodcet, Prexus and Brell folks have said it was NBG on their servers in that time frame...

[theaetatus]

People need to stop acting like NBG is some sort of ideal or fair system, or even something to aspire to. It isn't. It is inherently unfair unless the camp you are at has an equal chance of dropping useable loot of the same value for all classes.

I can't think of any such camps, unless all of the items from the camp are All/All in which case NBG is irrelevant.

[Tiewon Shu]

...I can't think of any such camps, unless all of the items from the camp are All/All in which case NBG is irrelevant.

What about dungeons?

[Wfrench1234]

What about them? Can't camp the whole zone

[Riotgirl]

<keep getting interrupted to properly compose thoughts. Place-holder for now>

[Tiewon Shu]

What about them? Can't camp the whole zone

Well don't camp then, crawl as intended.

[Jimjam]

Perhaps NBG could mean everyone should get to roll on items because everyone needs cash. Gear can be cashed out and cash can be used to buy gear in EC.

Warriors are the most gear dependant class, ergo warriors should get all loot rights by NBG.

Heard it here first.
Jimjam - Halfling Warrior.

[dafier]

i never once saw need before greed in classic live

I saw it, but in random groups unless you spoke to the group about your need for a spell (not an item) then most the time the group was pretty cool about it.

Example of when I saw it more often:

Guild group, just after Velious was released. Spells dropped that someone in the group didn't have yet. If they needed it, they got it without question. If they already had it, we did a simple roll, and whoever won, sold it. If there was an item (mostly having to do with resist that was droppable) and it was a really nice upgrade for a guildy, then most the time we'd give it to them.

As for an item in a random group, no, NBG was NEVER in effect on live. Unless someone or the whole group 'passed' out of sympathy, but that is still not NBG

[Champion_Standing]

nbg definitely bs, who cares if I'm wearing a cof and a fungi, I'm rolling on that savants cap!


But seriously if you are on your 9th twink alt and you are demanding to roll on cheap junk against a newbie in rags you are probably scum.

[tarkhis]

Zenren, I feel your pain, really I do. But I think you just need to give up this fight and accept the fact that this server is what it is, and it's not going to change.

Decent players don't need rules to abide by. You're preaching to the choir. These people group with anyone regardless of class or gear. They call out their trains. They buff or bind without blinking an eye. We like to think they make up the majority. These are the people you need to gravitate to and spend most of your time with.

The asshats who shit on other players just because they can, with very little consequences? They don't and they won't play by the rules. They bounce from guild to guild, laugh at the forums, take bans in stride, and blame whatever shit they're trying to pull on Aspergers or the server being stuck in Kunark for too long. Avoid them as much as possible.

I think you hit the nail on the head. my experience was on Povar way back pre-kunark through PoP. I always saw NBG being used and if someone did try to scam other players(the asshats) they were called out on the forums and in guildchats and often found themselves perma LFG from that point on, your reputation on the server could make or break you so scamming for 1 stupid item, disrupting other peoples camps etc. could mean you were done and it was time to make a new toon or transfer. We had whole guilds get shunned by the combined group of all other guilds when they went after bosses out of rotation.

In P99 so far, my experience As so eloquently stated above, is I tend to follow Zenren's rules because I'm not an asshat and like grouping and being part of a community rather than racing to get the best gear etc. This server is not going past Luclin, we will all get there eventually so why go nuts and powerlevel like mad only to be stuck in a worse situation at endgame.

I don't care if someone else wants to powerlevel, twink, only group with uber people etc. That is their playstyle and right to play the game as they want.I will ask them if I can cut in or take part of the camp that they are doing and if they say no, get lost whatever, I move on.

So far I have never encountered that attitude in P99, I was in befallen as one of 3 people in zone a 60 Wizard, 13 twinked cleric being powereleveled and my 17 enchanter. I went down to 3rd floor and found everything being wholesale butchered. I asked if I could have some mobs and the wizard told me take the ones on the left side area. They even saved my butt when charm or mezz broke, offered me some drops they didn't need.

If they had told me to get lost I would of headed to another zone as they were there first and controlled the camp, I'm not into rule lawyering or petitioning non-stop. Here as in live I see common courtesy all the time and very rarely an asshat.

I've been in MM for about 12 levels now and that is an overcamped, crazy popular zone and I have seen nothing but courtesy there, everygroup I have been in never even set loot rules at the start we just kept killing mobs and people have shared gargoyle eyes, done NBG just as a matter of course. I have been with twinked, newbies, people from raiding guilds and unguilded people and everyone has been great.

I think the OP is letting a bad incident ruin his whole time in game and should drop it as the power gamers are going to tear him apart on the forums, and the ones who agree with his rules on courtesy are already practicing it anyway.

[Swish]

nbg definitely bs, who cares if I'm wearing a cof and a fungi, I'm rolling on that savants cap!


But seriously if you are on your 9th twink alt and you are demanding to roll on cheap junk against a newbie in rags you are probably scum.

It happens..


need before greed guys.... need before greed...

http://imageupload.co.uk/images/2015/06/24/cockfight.png

[Wabic]

I'll pile on the NBG argument. I don't see why someone with less gear, who has put less effort into this game, should be entitled to loot over someone with more gear, who has put more effort into this game.

Also, everyone needs plat. The fact that someone has to take the extra step to sell an item rather than equip it to get value out of it doesn't mean they need it less. Roll the droppable items.

[slappytwotoes]

Well don't camp then, crawl as intended.

Rofl do you even play here? Good luck crawling Lguk, CoM, Seb, etc at primetime. Or maybe just another lvl 20 with opinions

[indiscriminate_hater]

It happens..

what's your definition of need? from the screenshot, it looks like the guy could use a resist neck piece.

you're also not providing any context aside from a guy in mediocre bard gear requesting a solid resist piece. what does the rest of the group have? what is the rest of his gear like? did anyone else in the group "need" it?

it kind of sounds like you're just being a judgmental asshole who's humiliating this person for no good reason, but i know the loveable swish would never stoop that low

[tarkhis]

I'll pile on the NBG argument. I don't see why someone with less gear, who has put less effort into this game, should be entitled to loot over someone with more gear, who has put more effort into this game.

Also, everyone needs plat. The fact that someone has to take the extra step to sell an item rather than equip it to get value out of it doesn't mean they need it less. Roll the droppable items.

I don't see where more gear equals more effort, I was grouped with a twinked rogue, epic and all who started a few weeks ago. He made the character and his friends geared him out completely he hadn't put any effort in. Some people also could suffer from the RNG curse and lose every roll. To me it was the post classic EQ WoW mindset that equated gear with skill or effort. I have seen in the past and still see in P99 people in crud gear that I know can play their class well and thrive as part of a group and will always look for them on-line to team up.

I do agree that there is no cause to force NBG on people though. I am not twinked by a long shot this being my first toon and not having friends that talked me into coming over but I have saved plat, sold bearskins etc and bought some great Cha jewelry, I did the stein of mogguk quest and managed to buy a crude stein in Ogguk off a vendor. I was handed an advisor robe by player donation. I will always defer to NBG as my personal play style and pass on loot others need even though I could use money bad. But again, there should be no "rule" to force either NBG or all greed rolls. Just play the game and have fun!

[slappytwotoes]

NBG completely falls apart at higher levels. Imagine a Crypt camp with NBG... Shaman gets the JBB, Torpor and, arguably, the Hiero Cloak (stays BIS thru Velious).

Why does any other class even want to join? All good loot is taken. A rogue is required for that camp to open doors yet NO rogue loot even drops! Everquest wasn't designed for NBG nor is it a morally superior loot system... its just what people did 15 years ago who didn't know any better.

[Champion_Standing]

what's your definition of need? from the screenshot, it looks like the guy could use a resist neck piece.

you're also not providing any context aside from a guy in mediocre bard gear requesting a solid resist piece. what does the rest of the group have? what is the rest of his gear like? did anyone else in the group "need" it?

it kind of sounds like you're just being a judgmental asshole who's humiliating this person for no good reason, but i know the loveable swish would never stoop that low

Can afford css but not 50pp neck sounds legit

[Champion_Standing]

The fact of the matter is that most people support looting rules that benefit them. At low levels established players are usually willing to let poor newbies take the trash because for many of them selling something worth less than 100pp isn't worth the effort.

It's when you start getting valuable items that people's attitudes change. I've seen people roll on everything one night then freak out the next night when someone else does the same. I've seen someone beg for help to camp an fbss for example, who got help and was given the fbss come along the next week when someone else wanted to camp something then demanding to roll when it dropped.

It's all bout that pixel greed bb's

[Swish]

what's your definition of need? from the screenshot, it looks like the guy could use a resist neck piece.

you're also not providing any context aside from a guy in mediocre bard gear requesting a solid resist piece. what does the rest of the group have? what is the rest of his gear like? did anyone else in the group "need" it?

it kind of sounds like you're just being a judgmental asshole who's humiliating this person for no good reason, but i know the loveable swish would never stoop that low

You missed me saying you can get a +9 MR necklace if you really need the MR? Bards don't need str.

If I see a guy twinked to the teeth trying to call "need" on MM loot then something's up. This is one of the things wrong with the server. Just out of the picture is a shaman in rags.

In a separate group last week we handed out a froggie robe that dropped in disco to a mage in an advisor robe... that's how we should be playing. Not calling need on stuff we'll either barely use or are straight up going to hit the tunnel with afterwards.

[Swish]

Can afford css but not 50pp neck sounds legit

[Tiewon Shu]

Rofl do you even play here? Good luck crawling Lguk, CoM, Seb, etc at primetime. Or maybe just another lvl 20 with opinions

Well there is your problem understanding simple logic. If you cannot crawl at prime time you crawl when? Don't burst a vein trying to figure it out.

[fastboy21]

The whole mr neck thing is a strawman...

there is a big difference between an epic'd rogue in mm demanding a roll on a midnight cape and an epic'd rogue in seb demanding a roll on hiero cloak.

Many of us posting here are approaching NBG from the position of having played multiple chars to max level with the majority of people we play with having done the same. Many of us don't play our mains unless we are raiding. Many of us don't even consider a single char to be their main anymore. For us, the whole paradigm of NBG totally breaks down because there is no way to determine "need" in a fair way in the places we are grouping and the people we are grouping with. The solution, for us, is to really roll everything.

I guess that sounds heartless to the guy who just started a month ago and is losing NBG rolls in mistmoore. Its not. We're almost playing two different games. Most of us just pass on that stuff in those situations because we know that someone in group would actually need the item.

Most of the folks I know routinely give away items, buff, help with CRs, answer questions for folks, etc. Calling them indecent because they have rationally concluded that NBG is the fairest way to distribute loot in the places they are playing is just inaccurate.

[Tiewon Shu]

...Everquest wasn't designed for NBG nor is it a morally superior loot system... its just what people did 15 years ago who didn't know any better.

Or they just behaved like honest, moral human beings that valued friendships more than pixels. Just a thought.

[Llodd]

Nah you cant have exceptions if you don't want/like NBG. If it's mqable then there's no reason for all not to roll.

[Llodd]

People need to stop acting like NBG is some sort of ideal or fair system, or even something to aspire to. It isn't. It is inherently unfair unless the camp you are at has an equal chance of dropping useable loot of the same value for all classes.

I can't think of any such camps, unless all of the items from the camp are All/All in which case NBG is irrelevant.

It's not about fairness. inherently or otherwise.

[Swish]

Shutting people with no gear out from getting usable gear they definitely need all because you want an equal chance to be able to sell it in the tunnel isn't my idea of a healthy community.

[Champion_Standing]

The whole mr neck thing is a strawman...

there is a big difference between an epic'd rogue in mm demanding a roll on a midnight cape and an epic'd rogue in seb demanding a roll on hiero cloak.

Many of us posting here are approaching NBG from the position of having played multiple chars to max level with the majority of people we play with having done the same. Many of us don't play our mains unless we are raiding. Many of us don't even consider a single char to be their main anymore. For us, the whole paradigm of NBG totally breaks down because there is no way to determine "need" in a fair way in the places we are grouping and the people we are grouping with. The solution, for us, is to really roll everything.

I guess that sounds heartless to the guy who just started a month ago and is losing NBG rolls in mistmoore. Its not. We're almost playing two different games. Most of us just pass on that stuff in those situations because we know that someone in group would actually need the item.

Most of the folks I know routinely give away items, buff, help with CRs, answer questions for folks, etc. Calling them indecent because they have rationally concluded that NBG is the fairest way to distribute loot in the places they are playing is just inaccurate.

Naw im p sure that the whole nbg on a fung/heiro line is the strawman here.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Or they just behaved like honest, moral human beings that valued friendships more than pixels. Just a thought.

It's commendable to NBG to a player with a legitimate need, however, it is not morally obligatory.

The best loot system is the one the entire group is satisfied with. Stop equating NGB to moral superiority.

[Raev]

The devs want this server to be cutthroat, and the raid mechanics that they have chosen (combined with the global nature of early EQ) encourage balls-to-the-wall "competition" via staring at the computer screen for hours. Combine that with massive overcrowding, where you would never get anything done if you just waited in line forever, and the raid attitude gradually percolates down to the rest of the server. The vast majority of people don't enjoy spending their free time crushing other sociopaths on the Internet, which is why other MMOs implemented instances.

TLDR: the server is the way it is because the devs want it that way.

[nhdjoseywales]

Well don't camp then, crawl as intended.

you mean steal the camps of everyone else in the zone one by one and act like you arent being a complete fucknut?

[Erica]

Seems like people who ask for NBG in a group are the usually the ones who will benefit from it at that particular camp. So... you want me to help you not only have a chance to get this item, but you don't want to give me a chance to win it as well? What if I want to sell/trade it so I can fill one of my empty slots? Or upgrade a current slot? And this is called need before greed? Sounds like you are the greedy one.

Here is the other thing though. Lets say I could have used the plat because there are still items I want to buy, but it was an upgrade for them so I let the person have it. I doubt they are going to hold onto that item forever. What happens when they get an upgrade? Are they going to contact the rest of those group members and split the plat? No. They are going to sell the item and put it towards something else they want, which is what I wanted to do in the first place.

I don't see any difference in equipping the item as an upgrade or using it to get an upgrade. NBG is so greedy. If you feel you don't need the item or the plat it will bring, then either pass on it or roll for it and hand it to the person who you think needs it if you win.

[Llodd]

The devs want this server to be cutthroat, and the raid mechanics that they have chosen (combined with the global nature of early EQ) encourage balls-to-the-wall "competition" via staring at the computer screen for hours. Combine that with massive overcrowding, where you would never get anything done if you just waited in line forever, and the raid attitude gradually percolates down to the rest of the server. The vast majority of people don't enjoy spending their free time crushing other sociopaths on the Internet, which is why other MMOs implemented instances.

TLDR: the server is the way it is because the devs want it that way.

I've never seen anywhere that the devs have said they wanted the server to be cutthroat.

What I have seen is them saying they want the server to be as classic was in 99.

This doesn't in of itself preclude the server being on a total rotational basis - which a minority did. But that is mostly irrelevant aprt from giving some context.

It really is down to the people playing to decide which way the server goes (which I have seen devs say). And on P99 the douchebag levels are waaaaay above those from mine and many others experiences of classic 99-02.

Unfortunately this means the server is how it is, because douchebaggery always wins out as the nature of EQ lends itself to that so well. And hence eventually we have Rogean stepping in when those levels of douchebaggery after 3 fucking years remained as high as ever.

tl:dr the server is how it is cuz ppl are shits

[indiscriminate_hater]

You missed me saying you can get a +9 MR necklace if you really need the MR? Bards don't need str.

If I see a guy twinked to the teeth trying to call "need" on MM loot then something's up. This is one of the things wrong with the server. Just out of the picture is a shaman in rags.

In a separate group last week we handed out a froggie robe that dropped in disco to a mage in an advisor robe... that's how we should be playing. Not calling need on stuff we'll either barely use or are straight up going to hit the tunnel with afterwards.

who are you to tell players what stats they need? the guy is obviously going the melee route and can use the str/ac.

who are you to tell people how they should be playing? you and all of the other pixel welfare advocates all have a common theme: "i enjoy playing this way and so should everyone else. BUT DON'T TELL ME HOW I SHOULD PLAY THE GAME"

if the shaman in rags is just out of the picture, why isn't he calling "need"?

and regarding your more recent post: how exactly is /ran 100 shutting out players from getting gear? get a grip

[Thulghor]

Really? Pixel welfare? Think you're stretching your Ayn Rand a bit.

[Tiewon Shu]

you mean steal the camps of everyone else in the zone one by one and act like you arent being a complete fucknut?

Nope. I meant crawl, don't camp.

[Thulghor]

I really like that "plat welfare" or "pixel welfare" is being brought up every time someone mentions that perhaps players should be less awful to other players, and usually by people fairly high up the "food chain."

Like somehow it is our expected objectivist duty to try to edge everyone out and be awful solely for our own personal gain. And anyone who says otherwise is "Beta" (lawls), weak, or somehow whiny and deficient. This equation makes me laugh. Especially the use of the term "Beta" in a online video game.

Sorry guys, no jobs are being created here, and no economics are trickling down, and Atlas is clearly not shrugging. Also, you're probably not the "Alphas" you think you are. Also, Regan isn't president either.

Although this is a forum for a roleplaying game, so I suppose continue to roleplay as the awful people you've always wanted to be.

[indiscriminate_hater]

I really like that "plat welfare" or "pixel welfare" is being brought up every time someone mentions that perhaps players should be less awful to other players, and usually by people fairly high up the "food chain."

Like somehow it is our expected objectivist duty to try to edge everyone out and be awful solely for our own personal gain. And anyone who says otherwise is "Beta" (lawls), weak, or somehow whiny and deficient. This equation makes me laugh. Especially the use of the term "Beta" in a online video game.

Sorry guys, no jobs are being created here, and no economics are trickling down, and Atlas is clearly not shrugging. Also, you're probably not the "Alphas" you think you are.

pretty sure you're the only person in this thread that has used the words Alpha and Beta.

so, being "awful" means trying to do well for yourself in the game by having an equal chance at receiving loot that you helped to acquire?

[Tiewon Shu]

pretty sure you're the only person in this thread that has used the words Alpha and Beta.

so, being "awful" means trying to do well for yourself in the game by having an equal chance at receiving loot that you helped to acquire?

No, being awful is rolling on an item that you do not need, when someone obviously does need it.

Kinda like a rich millionaire strolling down a road along side a poor, almost naked homeless person. A truck rolls by and off the back of it, a nice pair of sneakers falls to the ground. The poor homeless person immediately reaches for the sneakers, as he has no footwear. The millionaire however, protests, stating that those sneakers fit him as well and should have equal claim on them.

Is the millionaire right to have equal claim on them? Yes, yes he is.
Is he a big douche bag for even suggesting he take the sneakers from a poor person that needs footwear? Yes, yes he is.

[Thulghor]

pretty sure you're the only person in this thread that has used the words Alpha and Beta.

so, being "awful" means trying to do well for yourself in the game by having an equal chance at receiving loot that you helped to acquire?

Yeah, in THIS thread. Glance at any of the others on the same or similar topics, and you'll see. This particular topic gets brought up a lot.

You are really hung up on this idea of "need before greed" thing. You're trying to argue semantics now. You know there were other points the guy made on the list right?

Being awful doesn't mean trying to do well for yourself in the game by having an equal chance, being awful is when you cross the line from "deserving or earned/worked for it" and into the "needlessly miserly and greedy."

If you can't see where that line is, I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Slayde]

To start I only read about half the thread, so apologies if it's been said already.
The problem isn't with the game, the problem lies in the mentality of the people who play it. At some point in the past 20 years, the majority of the 1st world countries were reprogrammed to think only of themselves. That the betterment of themselves was the most important, as in the long run it would better humanity. This however is false. We are at our place in history at the moment due to the previous generations working together for a common goal. We as a species now mostly lack this ability. The definition of greed is thus: "excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions." Key word, Excessive. I know this will blow right over the tops of some heads, but the key to the betterment of humanity (and subsequently the state of the server) is to let go of the excess. There is no alpha, there is no omega, there is only now. Money doesn't matter, Pixels don't matter. All that matters is the longevity of our species. Which we have sorely misguided.

tl;dr
Assholes are the rule now, not the exception, and we will all burn for it in the end. (non-religiously)

[Thulghor]

This game and the systems behind it allows a person to be greedy and awful. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you don't know where those boundaries lie, it's time to reevaluate your moral compass.

Thankfully, a lot of people here are pretty awesome.

[kaev]

Slayde, I dunno what imaginary world you're dreaming existed 20 years ago, but as someone who grew up in the '60s & '70s I can assure you that it didn't exist 20 years ago when I was in my 30s, nor did it exist 40 years ago when I was a teenager, nor has it existed ever as far as I can determine.

[Rararboker]

"At some point"

Huh? That thought process is as natural as pooping or eating or having sex. It is what helps humans ensure they live on to pass on their own genetics.

[Thulghor]

You're forgetting the tribal mentality, which despite its setbacks, has helped form civilization today. Otherwise, we'd probably still be in caves.

Now the nature of the game is to divide and conquer all the subgroups of people for the benefit of a small elite, in any way possible. But that's a whole different topic entirely.

[indiscriminate_hater]

No, being awful is rolling on an item that you do not need, when someone obviously does need it.

Kinda like a rich millionaire strolling down a road along side a poor, almost naked homeless person. A truck rolls by and off the back of it, a nice pair of sneakers falls to the ground. The poor homeless person immediately reaches for the sneakers, as he has no footwear. The millionaire however, protests, stating that those sneakers fit him as well and should have equal claim on them.

Is the millionaire right to have equal claim on them? Yes, yes he is.
Is he a big douche bag for even suggesting he take the sneakers from a poor person that needs footwear? Yes, yes he is.

False analogy

[Rararboker]

I'm not forgetting anything. Being part of a group definitely helps but that doesn't discount that people always want their own genetics to pass on. Nor does it mean they don't want the group to do good things for themselves.

[Bilbik]

the argument that a 500k-gear-twinked person should yield a dropped item worth 1k to an ungeared player is dumb, assuming they put forth the same amount of effort to get that item to drop. in fact, the twinked person likely had a much bigger impact on getting that item to drop than the untwinked player, but the /ran 100 is based on the assumption that everyone in a group is putting forth the same level of effort.



Is this a troll post?

[Thulghor]

Here's one for you.

A filthy rich guy and a poor downtrodden guy both walk along the same street. Both of them see a $100 bill on the sidewalk, and both happen to reach for it at the same time. Who should get the bill? Both made the effort of walking down the same street.

[indiscriminate_hater]

This game and the systems behind it allows a person to be greedy and awful. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you don't know where those boundaries lie, it's time to reevaluate your moral compass.

Thankfully, a lot of people here are pretty awesome.

I think you're forgetting we're talking about a fantasy elf simulator. Your grandiose notions of morality don't matter here. And no, behavior in this game is not an extension of behavior in real life

[Thulghor]

I think you're forgetting we're talking about a fantasy elf simulator. Your grandiose notions of morality don't matter here. And no, behavior in this game is not an extension of behavior in real life

Check. We all now know which side of the line you are on.

[Slayde]

Slayde, I dunno what imaginary world you're dreaming existed 20 years ago, but as someone who grew up in the '60s & '70s I can assure you that it didn't exist 20 years ago when I was in my 30s, nor did it exist 40 years ago when I was a teenager, nor has it existed ever as far as I can determine.

What exactly didn't exist back then? People being assholes? or people NOT being assholes? Either I am misinterpreting what you said, or you are misinterpreting what I said.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Here's one for you.

A filthy rich guy and a poor downtrodden guy both walk along the same street. Both of them see a $100 bill on the sidewalk, and both happen to reach for it at the same time. Who should get the bill? Both made the effort of walking down the same street.

Try again

[Whirled]

Is there any way to find the true owner of this 100$?

[Thulghor]

What exactly didn't exist back then? People being assholes? or people NOT being assholes? Either I am misinterpreting what you said, or you are misinterpreting what I said.

I think he thinks that you're implying that at some point there used to be a golden age of humanity, or perhaps an age of cooperation, that probably didn't exist. I don't know though.

[Thulghor]

Try again

I've already had my question answered, thanks.

Is there any way to find the true owner of this 100$?

In this instance, no, although good on you for considering that.

[Champion_Standing]

Reading over this thread has convinced me that this servers biggest problem are the nerds who take this game way too seriously.

If you are on the forums legit arguing about people's rights to pixels you need to take a fuckin break.

Come back when you want to play a game and have fun. EQ is a poor place to give your life meaning.

[Slayde]

I think he thinks that you're implying that at some point there used to be a golden age of humanity, or perhaps an age of cooperation, that probably didn't exist.

Ah, if that is the case then yes. Misinterpretation. There is no real golden age of anything. There was just a time when we recognized the difference. Thanks to multiple generations being raised on the internet that concept has gone the way of the dodo. People think that because it's the internet anything goes, and well, it does. The overlooked issue is the fact that actions, whether purposefully or not, are an extension of the psyche. The only reason people don't "troll" in real life is because of the consequences involved. It doesn't mean they are any less of an asshole on the inside. It takes a big one to get any enjoyment out of it.

[Kengo]

I think you're forgetting we're talking about a fantasy elf simulator. Your grandiose notions of morality don't matter here. And no, behavior in this game is not an extension of behavior in real life

Pretty sure this is the definition of a modern troll.

[Cecily]

Here's one for you.

A filthy rich guy and a poor downtrodden guy both walk along the same street. Both of them see a $100 bill on the sidewalk, and both happen to reach for it at the same time. Who should get the bill? Both made the effort of walking down the same street.

You don't get filthy rich passing on $100 items. Roll em.

http://i.imgur.com/w8SQ31p.jpg

[Whirled]

In this instance, no, although good on you for considering that.

Hey thanks. :D Moribus facit homini

[kaev]

What exactly didn't exist back then? People being assholes? or people NOT being assholes? Either I am misinterpreting what you said, or you are misinterpreting what I said.

... At some point in the past 20 years, the majority of the 1st world countries were reprogrammed to think only of themselves. ...

"Individualism" & "Libertarianism" & other fancy dress-up rationalizations for plain old selfishness aren't new. Read up on "classical liberalism" and "the Irish question" sometime if you want to be horrified by people on the east side of the atlantic. I'm assuming you're at least vaguely aware of slavery, indentured servitude, perhaps you're less aware of the garment mill sweatshops in New York City in the early 20th century. Germany was a very first-world country when it kicked off WW2 and fired up industrial slavery & extermination camps. That incredibly short list barely begins to touch on the evils of the last few centuries, the overwhelming majority of them perpetrated by what you would call first world countries (who the hell do you think had the power to create vast colonial empires?) and most of that shit continued well into and even throughout the 20th century.

There has been no reprogramming of anything except the propaganda in the popular media. People are still people. Pretending that people were morally superior at some earlier date, any earlier date, is a disservice to yourself and to anybody else fooled by the delusion you propagate. The world is not improved by pretending that it used to be better, that's just a cop-out.

[Slayde]

"Individualism" & "Libertarianism" & other fancy dress-up rationalizations for plain old selfishness aren't new. Read up on "classical liberalism" and "the Irish question" sometime if you want to be horrified by people on the east side of the atlantic. I'm assuming you're at least vaguely aware of slavery, indentured servitude, perhaps you're less aware of the garment mill sweatshops in New York City in the early 20th century. Germany was a very first-world country when it kicked off WW2 and fired up industrial slavery & extermination camps. That incredibly short list barely begins to touch on the evils of the last few centuries, the overwhelming majority of them perpetrated by what you would call first world countries (who the hell do you think had the power to create vast colonial empires?) and most of that shit continued well into and even throughout the 20th century.

There has been no reprogramming of anything except the propaganda in the popular media. People are still people. Pretending that people were morally superior at some earlier date, any earlier date, is a disservice to yourself and to anybody else fooled by the delusion you propagate. The world is not improved by pretending that it used to be better, that's just a cop-out.

I agree the use of the terms "20 years" and "1st world countries" isn't accurate by any means, I just used them to make the concept a little easier for people to understand, and yes I did know about all that stuff you talked about.

The big difference now is that greed is rewarded, it is the "norm". People are naturally greedy, but civilization was born on the concept of self-sacrifice. I find it very hard to believe that early tribal colonies did not punish and exile those who didn't run with the pack per-say. Prioritizing yourself above all else is not a wise choice for anyone but your perceived self. There is no "ism" involved. It's simple, compassionate humanity. In order to achieve we must be as one. Together we stand, divided we fall. We have all heard this phrase, yet almost none abide by it anymore. It may not have necessarily been "reprogramming" but some phase shift certainly did happen.

[WolfsongReborn]

i never once saw need before greed in classic live

Weird. For the longest time Lanys was totally NBG, well into Luclin, I believe. Then again, we had what I believe was a truly unique community; heck our server forums are still up.

NBG, honestly, up to a point is how it should be anyhow. The quest for levels the quest for gear and to improve one's character and make friends along the way; That is what the MMORPG was made for. It's ridiculous, at least until say, open raid levels for someone in a group to not get a drop they need but rather have to go out and farm to afford said item. It's a stupid mentality.

The problem you run into is folks "needing" the same item a dozen times, simply needing the item, and handing it off to an alt to sell and then "needing it" the very next group they're in.........it can be a problem. However........

Many classes simply cannot farm for cash effectively/at all so they're what....supposed to make, gear and lvl a farm class alt just to afford buying an item they got into a group to get as a drop?


Stupid.

[Bboboo]

NBG...

Go to KC on monk.

Keep Tstaff on bags.

Tstaff drops.

Hey guys I need this.

[Bboboo]

Tstaff on alt damnit

[Whirled]

naw, that's just silly greed^

[indiscriminate_hater]

Weird. For the longest time Lanys was totally NBG, well into Luclin, I believe. Then again, we had what I believe was a truly unique community; heck our server forums are still up.

NBG, honestly, up to a point is how it should be anyhow. The quest for levels the quest for gear and to improve one's character and make friends along the way; That is what the MMORPG was made for. It's ridiculous, at least until say, open raid levels for someone in a group to not get a drop they need but rather have to go out and farm to afford said item. It's a stupid mentality.

The problem you run into is folks "needing" the same item a dozen times, simply needing the item, and handing it off to an alt to sell and then "needing it" the very next group they're in.........it can be a problem. However........

Many classes simply cannot farm for cash effectively/at all so they're what....supposed to make, gear and lvl a farm class alt just to afford buying an item they got into a group to get as a drop?

Stupid.


yes, they are.

EQ's not a perfect game. all classes were not created equally. if you create a gnome warrior as your first and main character, you have no right to request gear from people who happen to have more than you. the server is full of people who leveled up druids, wizards, necros, bards as their first characters, farmed for a while, then used the fruits of their hard work to twink out a melee character.

sure, you don't HAVE to go this route. it takes more work, and depending on your point of view, could be less enjoyable.

and again, an example of someone who is trying to tell people how they SHOULD play the game.

[indiscriminate_hater]

RnF! my work here is done

[Poltergist]

About time

[EQNoob]

Sipping on my whiskey, sitting at hiero solo whilst reading about plebs arguing over chump change.

Well not literally now cause I'm at work.

Anyway you don't make 500k by passing on items. Anything less than 1k I pass. Anything over idc, rolling and anything over 10k I will corpse if lored.

[nhdjoseywales]

naw, that's just silly greed^

but thats actually what happens. thats what happened on live, its what would happen here if you gave 30k items to folks just for showing up and playing class x. human nature isnt that hard to figure out, not sure why you guys have such a delusional view of it

[Champion_Standing]

I like how nbg arguements are countered with examples of greed. Look at you guys, you are just obsessed with every way you can possibly weasel more loot, speaks a lot more to your inclinations than it does to flaws in a nbg loot setup.

[Deckk]

I would hope that if you're in a party and you really aren't going to use an item you give it to someone who could. No official rules needed. But if someone could use it but it's not a major upgrade for them, perhaps rolling isn't a bad thing. It all depends on situation. I just hope that people would do the right thing.

[Whirled]

but thats actually what happens. thats what happened on live, its what would happen here if you gave 30k items to folks just for showing up and playing class x. human nature isnt that hard to figure out, not sure why you guys have such a delusional view of it

You are misguided in your claim to think I have any say over what this server does. Also, I do not know who you refer to in the, "you guys". I think if you actually hung out with me in game instead of accusing me of something I have no part in; you'd see things much differently.

[Sapheryn]

I played Brell in 99 and it's mostly true that it was NBG. BUT everyone was in that first climb to the top. Hell, there probably wouldn't have been many who had the money to buy high end drops. You can't compare the two. And as far as the PL'ing, you don't know what someone's situation is. I'm in the career/kids part of my life, I have very little time for myself. But when I CAN play, I'm trying to catch up to my friends so hopefully soon I can join in real groups with them. So any chance I get for someone to PL me is gold. With that being said, we certainly don't kill entire zones when we do it. And I do agree with basic manners. Lately I've been trying to camp BB entrance from QHills and can be all alone for half an hour then someone will show up out of the blue and steal my kills as much as they can until I just leave. That's a new experience.

[Thulghor]

Brell Serilis was an awesome server and an awesome community.

[clacbec]

Shutting people with no gear out from getting usable gear they definitely need all because you want an equal chance to be able to sell it in the tunnel isn't my idea of a healthy community.

indeed

[theaetatus]

People aren't being 'shut up from getting usable gear', they have the same random chance of getting said usable gear as anyone else in the group. They also have the chance to get non-useable gear to sell to buy themselves some gear.

It works both ways... Sure, a newbie monk might miss out on a tstaff but a newbie cleric might win a tstaff over a monk with fungi/cof/epic/sos who would otherwise claim NBG.

Random is a fairer system and also a much harder system to abuse. NBG makes no sense.

[Lionsfan616]

The whole mr neck thing is a strawman...

there is a big difference between an epic'd rogue in mm demanding a roll on a midnight cape and an epic'd rogue in seb demanding a roll on hiero cloak.

Many of us posting here are approaching NBG from the position of having played multiple chars to max level with the majority of people we play with having done the same. Many of us don't play our mains unless we are raiding. Many of us don't even consider a single char to be their main anymore. For us, the whole paradigm of NBG totally breaks down because there is no way to determine "need" in a fair way in the places we are grouping and the people we are grouping with. The solution, for us, is to really roll everything.

I guess that sounds heartless to the guy who just started a month ago and is losing NBG rolls in mistmoore. Its not. We're almost playing two different games. Most of us just pass on that stuff in those situations because we know that someone in group would actually need the item.

Most of the folks I know routinely give away items, buff, help with CRs, answer questions for folks, etc. Calling them indecent because they have rationally concluded that NBG is the fairest way to distribute loot in the places they are playing is just inaccurate.

The struggle is real for those of us who just learned that this server exists...

[Tiewon Shu]

Reading over this thread has convinced me that this servers biggest problem are the nerds who take this game way too seriously.

If you are on the forums legit arguing about people's rights to pixels you need to take a fuckin break.

Come back when you want to play a game and have fun. EQ is a poor place to give your life meaning.

[Deckk]

Eh. If I'm in a "random loot" group and I win an item I have no use for and someone in group really wants it, they can have it. A few plat ain't worth it. But if someone is twinked out, perhaps I don't have the same form of empathy, even if the item is an upgrade. Who knows.

[Clark]

People aren't being 'shut up from getting usable gear', they have the same random chance of getting said usable gear as anyone else in the group. They also have the chance to get non-useable gear to sell to buy themselves some gear.

It works both ways... Sure, a newbie monk might miss out on a tstaff but a newbie cleric might win a tstaff over a monk with fungi/cof/epic/sos who would otherwise claim NBG.

Random is a fairer system and also a much harder system to abuse. NBG makes no sense.

[Llodd]

Ofc, nbg will never make sense to most ppl on this server and furthermore it cant be explained to them.

[slappytwotoes]

Love how newbies join a 6 year old server and start telling everyone how to be decent players

[Swish]

Love how newbies join a 6 year old server and start telling everyone how to be decent players

They haven't been camp lawyered yet, give them time.

[kaev]

Ofc, nbg will never make sense to most ppl on this server and furthermore it cant be explained to them.

You sir, are a poor mindreader, nor are you well skilled at snark.

NBG makes sense allright. Sadly, NBG it fails because it is so easily abused that the greedheads cannot resist and this server is well salted with greedheads. This unfortunate reality inevitably leads thoughtful players to fall back on /random unless there is good reason to do otherwise. So, for instance, ordinary gem and common loot drops (i.e. stuff worth 100-200pp) in Old Seb are typically alpha-rotated rather than /randomed. Depending on the guild, guild groups are often NBG or even put together for the specific purpose of getting particular gear for particular characters. There are plenty of examples when NBG happens, but none of them include rare and highly valuable items that drop for random_pug_1337.

[Champion_Standing]

Love how newbies join a 6 year old server and start telling everyone how to be decent players

Yeah it's a pretty complex topic that requires years of study.

[Thulghor]

Yeah it's a pretty complex topic that requires years of study.

Some still haven't figured it out yet.

[Ahtex]

Can't have freedom without telling people how to live their lives.
And it's what America was founded upon. About 80% wanted to stay with England.

And it's been the "American Way" ever since...

Those are some Internet Facts you're spouting right there....

80% of the population that became the United States were revolutionists, and only 20% were loyal to England. Source (http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/outlines/history-1994/the-road-to-independence/loyalists-during-the-american-revolution.php)

[Danth]

The struggle is real for those of us who just learned that this server exists...

On the contrary, it's easier to start out now than at any time in P1999's past. Those rich folks who might win a random on a 2K drop are the same rich folks who've spent 4 years farming Kunark. Hence they're the reason you can deck yourself out in what by rights should be expensive equipment for a mere pittance. New folks come out ahead relative to where they should be after their first couple months. I can go to East Commons and buy a Sword of the Morning for maybe 500P; historically during Kunark that same thing would've cost me 8 or 10 thousand on most servers. Perfectly good equipment is often sold for barely more than its vendor value. That's not bad compensation for losing a drop here and there.

In so many words, it all balances out, and you're not disadvantaged starting now.

---------------------------

That being said, if I had 500K I can't imagine I'd random against newbies on some 2K drop....but then maybe that's why I don't have 500K after this long here.

Danth

[Llodd]

You sir, are a poor mindreader, nor are you well skilled at snark.

NBG makes sense allright. Sadly, NBG it fails because it is so easily abused that the greedheads cannot resist and this server is well salted with greedheads. This unfortunate reality inevitably leads thoughtful players to fall back on /random unless there is good reason to do otherwise. So, for instance, ordinary gem and common loot drops (i.e. stuff worth 100-200pp) in Old Seb are typically alpha-rotated rather than /randomed. Depending on the guild, guild groups are often NBG or even put together for the specific purpose of getting particular gear for particular characters. There are plenty of examples when NBG happens, but none of them include rare and highly valuable items that drop for random_pug_1337.

I already said all of the above, more or less, in an earlier post.

Short version: ppl are dicks; eq lends itself to dickishness so easily = eq attracts and holds dicks = ppl are dicks.

tl;dr dicks

[Champion_Standing]

dicks

[Swish]

"he started it"

[bktroost]

4) We tried to follow a need before greed rule, in fact EQ was where that term came from.

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/Need+Before+Greed

Proof.

[Gilder]

In that case, everybody on this planet should be driving the cheapest cars so we can give to those more readily that need it.

Shit logic will be shit. Free roll on anything that's not no drop.

As someone who rolls on anything that's no drop--thank you. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

[milsorgen]

In that case, everybody on this planet should be driving the cheapest cars so we can give to those more readily that need it.

Shit logic will be shit. Free roll on anything that's not no drop.

I can see some shit logic there but it ain't giving to those who more readily need it.

[Lictor]

Obama will subsidize them cars son

[Kalex716]

You can only be responsible for yourself. If you follow all those guidelines, you'll quickly notice others who do as well, and if its really of concern, you can choose to spend your time with likeminded folks only. All over the place, you'll find guild groups, and friends that play together and pass each other loot when they need it, and are thrilled when a big score makes a persons day etc. You need to prioritize your time in a way that you only play P99 in these sorts of environments. Its harder, but rewarding, and doable.

That being said, just because you rather play that way, doesn't mean you can expect others to do the same. Its nice when things work out, and people pass on things they don't need at all, but you can't let it bother you if people have different agenda's than your own.