Alright, IB, Dozekar and Blackwater, knock it off

[Alawen Everywhere]

Look. You jerks need each other. None of you want to recruit and train a bunch of 46s and then fight for space in Hate and Fear to gear them up. IB has a terrible reputation and they're never going to rebuild without their core. Dozekar has no raid leader. Blackwater has no nice guys to recruit the 46s.

I've had my fun giving you all a ton of shit and you've all proven your point that you got really sick of each other poopsocking and raiding sky 24/7. So everybody shake hands and get back to work. Your alternative is that all three guilds fail.

After you accept the inevitable, go back and read the post that you kicked me out for and try to learn something instead of being such arrogant and stubborn pricks. Stop shitting on all your potential recruits over the efreeti camp or the thunder spirits. You'll be glad you did.

[yaaaflow]

the fuck does it matter to you

[girth]

tl;dr
Hi, I'm Alawen and I care about my own opinions. Please give me attention.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Hi, I'm Alawen and I care about my own opinions. Please give me attention.

Hi, I'm Girth and I do what Alawen wants me to do.

[Abacab niggah]

I'll join Dozekar and lead their raids

It's nearly Billy Mays guaranteed that I'll rocket that guild into super stardom.

http://images.memegenerator.net/billy-mays/ImageMacro/2723626/Hi-Billy-Mays-here-abacab-invite-is-a-good-choice-I-guarantee-it.jpg

[Abacab niggah]

http://images.memegenerator.net/gangster-plato/ImageMacro/2723731/Suck-on-dese-nuts-aint-nothin-but-rhetoric-baby.jpg

[Pheer]

EVERYONE LOOK AT ME

[Lazortag]

Does anyone else have a problem with the name "Blackwater"? I'm not trying to be a douche or anything (I think ennui is in Blackwater and he's pretty tight), but the name seems a little insensitive. I think there'd be a similar objection if someone named their guild "Jack the Ripper" or something.

[Glitch]

Does anyone else have a problem

No.

[Contact]

Does anyone else have a problem with the name "Blackwater"? I'm not trying to be a douche or anything (I think ennui is in Blackwater and he's pretty tight), but the name seems a little insensitive. I think there'd be a similar objection if someone named their guild "Jack the Ripper" or something.

Agree. Those men are scum for hire.

[M.Bison]

Does anyone else have a problem with the name "Blackwater"?

No.

tl;dr
Hi, I'm Alawen and I care about my own opinions. Please give me attention.
This ^^^

[Zexa]

Does anyone else have a problem with the name "Blackwater"? I'm not trying to be a douche or anything (I think ennui is in Blackwater and he's pretty tight), but the name seems a little insensitive. I think there'd be a similar objection if someone named their guild "Jack the Ripper" or something.

You may be a little too thin skinned for online games and the internet in general.

[Tork]

Well played, Zexa~

[Erasong]

Look. You jerks need each other. None of you want to recruit and train a bunch of 46s and then fight for space in Hate and Fear to gear them up. IB has a terrible reputation and they're never going to rebuild without their core. Dozekar has no raid leader. Blackwater has no nice guys to recruit the 46s.

I've had my fun giving you all a ton of shit and you've all proven your point that you got really sick of each other poopsocking and raiding sky 24/7. So everybody shake hands and get back to work. Your alternative is that all three guilds fail.

After you accept the inevitable, go back and read the post that you kicked me out for and try to learn something instead of being such arrogant and stubborn pricks. Stop shitting on all your potential recruits over the efreeti camp or the thunder spirits. You'll be glad you did.

I think the man is on to something.

[Dominick]

Agree. Those men are scum for hire.

How would you know? Ever met a guy who worked for them?

[Dantes]

Does anyone else have a problem with the name "Blackwater"? I'm not trying to be a douche or anything (I think ennui is in Blackwater and he's pretty tight), but the name seems a little insensitive. I think there'd be a similar objection if someone named their guild "Jack the Ripper" or something.

Yes, but for different reasons. It's pretentious.

[Hodge]

Definition of Blackwater:

v. the act of firing at anything that moves with high-powered firearms, even if the target happens to be a slow-moving vehicle full of innocent civilians; to be utterly unconcerned about the loss of human life while engaging in highly questionable behavior.

Damn, that street gang just blackwatered that poor family.

[Japan]

I play EQ from Baghdad and my grandpa was murdered last week by blackwater barbarians while innocently polishing some vintage Russian shaped charge explosives to their former chromed glory in the back of a pickup truck on the way to the antiques roadshow. I am highly offended by this insensitive guild name.

[Zexa]

I play EQ from Baghdad and my grandpa was murdered last week by blackwater barbarians while innocently polishing some vintage Russian shaped charge explosives to their former chromed glory in the back of a pickup truck on the way to the antiques roadshow. I am highly offended by this insensitive guild name.

Classic

[purist]

I'll join Dozekar and lead their raids

It's nearly Billy Mays guaranteed that I'll rocket that guild into super stardom.

http://images.memegenerator.net/billy-mays/ImageMacro/2723626/Hi-Billy-Mays-here-abacab-invite-is-a-good-choice-I-guarantee-it.jpg

Dude, you can't put a George Zimmer line in a Billy Mays meme.

[purist]

Look. You jerks need each other. None of you want to recruit and train a bunch of 46s and then fight for space in Hate and Fear to gear them up. IB has a terrible reputation and they're never going to rebuild without their core. Dozekar has no raid leader. Blackwater has no nice guys to recruit the 46s.

I've had my fun giving you all a ton of shit and you've all proven your point that you got really sick of each other poopsocking and raiding sky 24/7. So everybody shake hands and get back to work. Your alternative is that all three guilds fail.

After you accept the inevitable, go back and read the post that you kicked me out for and try to learn something instead of being such arrogant and stubborn pricks. Stop shitting on all your potential recruits over the efreeti camp or the thunder spirits. You'll be glad you did.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5718/despitethefactyoudidnta.jpg

[taxi2]

How can we know if blackwaters bad?

For starters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnVbulr2Pvw

[taxi2]

And people dont get why blackwater could be offensive because lots of americans dont understand what their country is really about. After the fact, when americans have been made to look at the mass graves like germans were after WW2, asking why blackwater is a bad name will seem as ridiculous as asking whats wrong with the Hitler youth.

[taxi2]

And talking about american policy > yet another bicker thread about who poopsocked the most.

[Zexa]

How can we know if blackwaters bad?

For starters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnVbulr2Pvw

"They got there before FEMA."

So they're good, right? Sounds like we need MORE mercenaries.

[Raavak]

A good friend of mine works for Blackwater. He's a little gung-ho but he's a great guy. One of those big teddybear types.

[Zexa]

And people dont get why blackwater could be offensive because lots of americans dont understand what their country is really about. After the fact, when americans have been made to look at the mass graves like germans were after WW2, asking why blackwater is a bad name will seem as ridiculous as asking whats wrong with the Hitler youth.

You let your biased euro media paint a false image of Blackwater in your mind. They're peace keepers developing relations with the locals...See:

http://i56.tinypic.com/v68ac0.jpg

[Trimm]

Paging Hasbinbad to thread 147685.

[Dominick]

Moyers has his axe to grind. He makes money getting you all to swallow the story hook, line and sinker.

It doesn't matter anyway, this is RnF.

You all castigate one guy for having a dumb opinion about service people, and don't really appreciate the difference between a private security operator and a serviceman; the difference is a discharge.

[Dantes]

You guys have it all wrong.

Blackwater is a relatively recent term used to describe wastewater containing fecal matter and urine. It is also known as brown water, foul water, or sewage. It is distinct from greywater or sullage, the residues of washing processes.

It's all about new and innovative ways to poopsock.

[HippoNipple]

Paging Hasbinbad to thread 147685.

Please no then we will have a 2 page conspiracy theory......

on the other hand why not I'm in the mood for some good fiction.

[Abacab niggah]

Some of you guys are retarded when it comes to Blackwater the organization or any contractor in general...

But here is the anti-pinkerton act for your reading pleasure

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t05t08+206+0++%28%29%20 %20AND%20%28%285%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20 %28USC%20w%2F10%20%283108%29%29%3ACITE

The only thing the United States didn't agree on when it comes to mercenary roles in combat is several U.N protocols that forfeit a mercenaries right to "prisoner of war" status if captured in combat, because insurgents and terrorists are required to be treated as POW's the United States found it hypocritical.

[Loke]

1st Bn 4th Marines, Charlie Company was also sent to New Orleans. For those of you unfamiliar with what that unit is, 1/4 C company is an infantry unit comprised primarily of 03## infantry marines.... basically it is a 100% combat oriented unit. They aren't a logistical or supply or any other sort of unit - they are infantry Marines who are trained for the sole purpose of conducting combat operations.

Now compare that to blackwater. What is more ridiculous, deploying the MARINES (see: first strike force in basically every major conflict in US history) to a disaster area within the United States, or a private security firm being hired to assist in maintaining order?

People really have no idea what blackwater does. They are a security force. Everyone thinks they're out their running direct action missions, but that simply isn't the case. Our govt doesn't use private companies to run black side direct action missions - that is what CAG teams or the DIA is for.

[HippoNipple]

1st Bn 4th Marines, Charlie Company was also sent to New Orleans. For those of you unfamiliar with what that unit is, 1/4 C company is an infantry unit comprised primarily of 03## infantry marines.... basically it is a 100% combat oriented unit. They aren't a logistical or supply or any other sort of unit - they are infantry Marines who are trained for the sole purpose of conducting combat operations.

Now compare that to blackwater. What is more ridiculous, deploying the MARINES (see: first strike force in basically every major conflict in US history) to a disaster area within the United States, or a private security firm being hired to assist in maintaining order?

People really have no idea what blackwater does. They are a security force. Everyone thinks they're out their running direct action missions, but that simply isn't the case. Our govt doesn't use private companies to run black side direct action missions - that is what CAG teams or the DIA is for.

Alright, its settled then. The Blackwater guild can stay!

[Retan]

But I didnt get to post my worthless opinion yet :(

[Lazortag]

People really have no idea what blackwater does. They are a security force. Everyone thinks they're out their running direct action missions, but that simply isn't the case. Our govt doesn't use private companies to run black side direct action missions - that is what CAG teams or the DIA is for.

Are you completely ignorant of the controversy involving blackwater? We're all aware of what blackwater's intended to do, but there's a huge abyss between that and what they've actually done and been accused of (for instance, raping US army personnel, conducting interrogations without permission, torture, indiscriminate killing, arms sales, and numerous other crimes). They're a gang of thugs who the US has no control over because they're desperately in need of troops - so even if their official mandate is just to provide security, that isn't all they've done.

Also, the more I think about it, it's wrong to prejudge what they meant when they chose the name blackwater. I'm sure they're referring to the private military contractors but considering how many things are named "Blackwater" I guess it's not that offensive. I guess I've just never seen a guild name that could even be considered offensive so I was a bit surprised that the name Blackwater was allowed to pass.

[Dominick]

People really have no idea what blackwater does. They are a security force. Everyone thinks they're out their running direct action missions, but that simply isn't the case. Our govt doesn't use private companies to run black side direct action missions - that is what CAG teams or the DIA is for.

Absolutely correct.

Hollywood has painted a much different picture. People with political agendas paint a different picture.

[Dominick]

(for instance, raping US army personnel, conducting interrogations without permission, torture, indiscriminate killing, arms sales, and numerous other crimes).

They have offices. Why doesn't someone just serve them with a lawsuit?

Because these are made up. Its easy to make an accusation in support of a political agenda, and so many willing dupes will buy it because it fits a popular prejudice.

[Hasbinbad]

Paging Hasbinbad to thread 147685.
lol

Everyone knows corporate-controlled para-military forces which have been indicted for weapons violations and were founded by fundamentalist christians who hate gays and the environment are fucking AWESOME bro!

[Lazortag]

They have offices. Why doesn't someone just serve them with a lawsuit?

Because these are made up. Its easy to make an accusation in support of a political agenda, and so many willing dupes will buy it because it fits a popular prejudice.

There have been numerous lawsuits against them. Wow.

[Hasbinbad]

There have been numerous lawsuits against them. Wow.
Didn't they JUST pay out $42,000,000 to settle one of those?

lol

[Dominick]

There have been numerous lawsuits against them. Wow.

One major one was by Blackwater employees. Another was employees not getting hazardous duty pay.

I am talking about the numerous criminal activity you allege. There are wrongful death, even a prostitution allegation. When you say lawsuit that doesn't validate your claim.

Even at that, if these claims are all true, why doesn't Obama wave a presidential wand and eliminate them overnight as a contractor. He has the power to zero fund them in 30 minutes after making that decision. If this was true, wouldn't he apply some change there?

Like I said before, people have motives for making claims against private firms like these, and there are hundreds of them operating overseas. Blackwater has a high profile for political purposes, how many do not?

[azeth]

itt: a bunch of people stealing quotes and heavy headlines to support their bias world view.

hey guys I also saw that PBS docu, that history channel docu etc, guess I should spew bullshit.

[azeth]

One major one was by Blackwater employees. Another was employees not getting hazardous duty pay(google search).

I am talking about the numerous(name them) criminal activity you allege. There are wrongful death, even a prostitution allegation(two total without links for proof). When you say lawsuit that doesn't validate your claim.

Even at that, if these claims are all true, why doesn't Obama wave a presidential wand and eliminate them overnight as a contractor(really?). He has the power to zero fund them in 30 minutes after making that decision(you have no concept of how his office operates). If this was true, wouldn't he apply some change there?(because its not true)

Like I said before, people have motives for making claims against private firms like these, and there are hundreds of them(nice exaggeration) operating overseas. Blackwater has a high profile(no they have a high profile because Blackwater is a cool catchy hollywood name) for political purposes(what political purposes?), how many do not?

[azeth]

Didn't they JUST pay out $42,000,000 to settle one of those?

lol(wow man excellent use of google on your part too)

[azeth]

There have been numerous lawsuits against them. Wow.(wow, an private LLC with lawsuits against them? holy shit my fucking world is upside down)

[azeth]

People really have no idea what blackwater does. They are a security force. Everyone thinks they're out their running direct action missions, but that simply isn't the case. Our govt doesn't use private companies to run black side direct action missions - that is what CAG teams or the DIA is for.

This is the only genuine post in this entire thread.

[Rhalous]

What is more ridiculous, deploying the MARINES (see: first strike force in basically every major conflict in US history) to a disaster area within the United States, or a private security firm being hired to assist in maintaining order?

I'm not really sure where you're going with this, and it doesn't really matter to me, but seeing as I'm from New Orleans, I'll tell you that it was indeed a combat zone post-Katrina. Blackwater was there, too. Post-Katrina was a complete cluster fuck and there was most certainly rape, murder, drug wars, and all other types of criminal behavior going on.

[Ridic]

DA noobs, will be noobs.

[azeth]

Learn the facts, before shit drips from your craphole that you call a mouth.

[taxi2]

You guys have it all wrong.

Blackwater is a relatively recent term used to describe wastewater containing fecal matter and urine. It is also known as brown water, foul water, or sewage. It is distinct from greywater or sullage, the residues of washing processes.

It's all about new and innovative ways to poopsock.

Fucker i was totally eating a carrot soup with little chunks in it as i read this :eek:

[Ridic]

Cause that has anything to do with DA being noobs?

Look @ me! i'm cool, cause I quote people and change shit around. Lololololol.

Shouldn't you be off zerging something? Or QQin about your BS' getting pickpocketed?

[azeth]

Ridic tries to strike you, but misses!
You have been Trolled for 0 damage!

[Alawen Everywhere]

Ridic tries to strike you, but misses!
You have been Trolled for 0 damage!

Trolling is not the same as flaming :(

[azeth]

You have been slain by Alawen!
LOADING PLEASE WAIT....
You have entered Ocean of Tears.

[Ridic]

Trolling is not the same as flaming :(

Flaming is a lot less direct and much more vulgar.

Plus, all what I said was the truth.

[Dominick]

blah blah

You have no concept how a government contract works.

There are literally tens of thousands of people who can cancel any contract. If President Obama doesn't cancel a contract that enables murder and rape, then Pelosi or a few hundred other congress critters could put a staffer on it.

Lets leave the politicians out, there are many DoD contract pukes, OMB pukes, and loads of Inspector this-and-that that can do it. If they had proof that Blackwater did something like rape a service woman, it would be a bonus to their career to cut them off.

They don't do a damn thing because the charges are spurious.

If they don't believe the conspiracy theory that Blackwater or hundreds of private security firms are running amok, why should I?

[Alawen Everywhere]

Here are some definitions of flaming and trolling based on classic usage. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1082512)

[Abacab niggah]

Are you completely ignorant of the controversy involving blackwater? We're all aware of what blackwater's intended to do, but there's a huge abyss between that and what they've actually done and been accused of (for instance, raping US army personnel, conducting interrogations without permission, torture, indiscriminate killing, arms sales, and numerous other crimes). They're a gang of thugs who the US has no control over because they're desperately in need of troops - so even if their official mandate is just to provide security, that isn't all they've done.

Do you have any proof of these allegations from a private security firm? Because I can definitely show you every allegation you've listed holds true for the U.S armed forces, but I haven't seen one smudge on any private security firm aside from the usual political ramifications and agendas.

[Dominick]

Do you have any proof of these allegations from a private security firm? Because I can definitely show you every allegation you've listed holds true for the U.S armed forces, but I haven't seen one smudge on any private security firm aside from the usual political ramifications and agendas.

This is the best argument for me to abandon my position, that I am agreeing with Abacab. :eek:

[purist]

He has a point, guys. Y'all don't know shit if you haven't been there, so lets take it from the actual Blackwater mercenaries themselves, in sworn affidavits given under penalty of perjury:

A former Blackwater employee and an ex-US Marine who has worked as a security operative for the company have made a series of explosive allegations in sworn statements... The two men claim that the company's owner, Erik Prince, may have murdered or facilitated the murder of individuals who were cooperating with federal authorities investigating the company. The former employee also alleges that Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe," and that Prince's companies "encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life.

[Ridic]

Here are some definitions of flaming and trolling based on classic usage. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1082512)

Websterz or its wrong.

[Dominick]

He has a point, guys. Y'all don't know shit if you haven't been there, so lets take it from the actual Blackwater mercenaries themselves, in sworn affidavits given under penalty of perjury:

Who go by John Doe. An affidavit such as this carries perjury. None of it could be prosecuted, even if they were made up. They are still hearsay.

Read it here:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/thenation/pdf/JohnDoe2Declaration.pdf

Even at that by executive action they could be shut down with a single utterance of many government officials who have not done so.

Even Obama, who is Muslim right?

[Loke]

I'm not really sure where you're going with this, and it doesn't really matter to me, but seeing as I'm from New Orleans, I'll tell you that it was indeed a combat zone post-Katrina. Blackwater was there, too. Post-Katrina was a complete cluster fuck and there was most certainly rape, murder, drug wars, and all other types of criminal behavior going on.

Oh, I wasn't really going anywhere with it, just bringing it up to make my point. People were all up in arms about blackwater employees being there, but they have no problem with a ~250 man infantry unit of Marines.

Just to be clear, I'm friends with a number of guys who were sent down there and am sure they performed admirably and did their best to help alleviate the situation. I'm simply pointing out that if you really want to get angry about who the gov't sent in there to help out - a heavily armed combat unit of Marines being deployed within the boarders of the united states is in my opinion slightly more interesting than a private security firm.

[Ezalor]

Who go by John Doe. An affidavit such as this carries perjury. None of it could be prosecuted, even if they were made up.

This is a critique of the toothlessness of affidavits, not a critique of the veracity of the charges. Can you tell the difference?

Even at that by executive action they could be shut down with a single utterance of many government officials who have not done so.

So, you're assuming all allegations of misconduct by Blackwater must be false because those with the executive power to reign in Blackwater haven't already done so?

If you really can't see the flaws in that logic, allow me add you to my ignore list.

[Abacab niggah]

A former Blackwater employee and an ex-US Marine who has worked as a security operative for the company have made a series of explosive allegations in sworn statements... The two men claim that the company's owner, Erik Prince, may have murdered or facilitated the murder of individuals who were cooperating with federal authorities investigating the company. The former employee also alleges that Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe," and that Prince's companies "encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life.

Wouldn't the "missing/murdered" federal employees spark an investigation? The crime these people state would be rather high profile and I would think it would garner federal and media attention.

They also state that Erik Prince is a muslim hater, but so are millions of other American's, did these people personally know Erik or is it simply just speculation on their part as they try to incite prejudice as a form of discreditably.

Both those arguments are merely opinion, there is no actual evidence people were contracted to kill informants, nor is there any evidence that Price's view is public record so we can plainly see this is nothing but mere speculation of probably two disgruntled employees

[ryuut1]

for the money they pay blackwater, i'd go back and do whatever they fucking told me to do.

[azeth]

ITT:is nothing but mere speculation

[Alawen Everywhere]

It really scares me when Abacab delivers the most rational argument in a thread.

[Skope]

It really scares me when Abacab delivers the most rational argument in a thread.

no, it shouldn't. he's probably one of the few people that actually makes informative and genuinely truthful posts in RnF. Sometimes you just gotta weed thru some of the other ones to pick them out =P

[taxi2]

I love how loke presents the alternatives.

Would you like a private firm of mercenaries known for their trigger fingers in Iraq or would you like to see soldiers in the streets?

How about a civilian response team, trained for disasters like this, is that like so far-fetched and socialist for your mind?

[Dominick]

This is a critique of the toothlessness of affidavits, not a critique of the veracity of the charges. Can you tell the difference?



So, you're assuming all allegations of misconduct by Blackwater must be false because those with the executive power to reign in Blackwater haven't already done so?

If you really can't see the flaws in that logic, allow me add you to my ignore list.

Poor wounded king defense then? Go ahead and add me, it doesn't matter to me.

These are toothless affidavits, that are not credible, and don't have charges that can be proved. How do you show in a court of law that Prince hates Muslims?

I posted a link to the affidavit because it proved the case clearly that these are political stunts not documents that we would file to end an injustice.

My point that is if an executive who can prevent a crime, does nothing with knowledge a crime is occurring, then they are culpable morally if not legally.

Obama is supposed to be "hope and change" but if such horrors are happening now, then they are his responsibilities. it doesn't look like he believes that murder of federal agents, rapes of American soldiers and all the innocent civilian deaths are worthy of note.

Even if he was somehow unable to cancel a contract that most every federal contact auditor can cancel with a simple memo, don't you think he would have made a speech or maybe even invited Blackwater over for a beer summit?

[Hasbinbad]

Prince's personal intolerance for anything that isn't white and christian is a matter of public record. There are quite enough quotes of his floating around so that anyone with half a brain (which some of you [azeth] apparently don't) can make the leap in logic that if he spews so much hatred when microphones and cameras are in front of him, that he must really have some serious negative feelings towards them; most people who are racist/homophobic, etc., try and tone it down a bit in public.

..not that many of you will be able to put two and two together and come up with four..

..just saying..

[Hasbinbad]

don't have*

DAMN YOU NO EDIT BUTTON!! DAMN YOU TO HELLLLLLLL!!!!

[New England Patriots]

Prince's personal intolerance for anything that isn't white and christian is a matter of public record. There are quite enough quotes of his floating around so that anyone with half a brain (which some of you [azeth] apparently don't) can make the leap in logic that if he spews so much hatred when microphones and cameras are in front of him, that he must really have some serious negative feelings towards them; most people who are racist/homophobic, etc., try and tone it down a bit in public.

..not that many of you will be able to put two and two together and come up with four..

..just saying..

hasbinbad fuck off :)

[Curmudgen]

Having seen the LifeAlert adds on TV, its damn lucky that name passed.

After failed raids, does everyone /shout Help we Failed and we cant get back up!

[New England Patriots]

don't have*

DAMN YOU NO EDIT BUTTON!! DAMN YOU TO HELLLLLLLL!!!!

dont be so fucking stupid then you stupid FUCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ezalor]

My point that is if an executive who can prevent a crime, does nothing with knowledge a crime is occurring, then they are culpable morally if not legally.

That's an entirely different argument than you presented before. Now you're talking about to what extent a state's figurehead should be held liable, legally or morally, for the misconduct of a government-contracted private mercenary force.

I'm talking about your previous post, where you stated that allegations of misconduct against Blackwater are necessarily false, precisely because Blackwater has yet to be held liable for any misconduct by the United States government's executive branch.

Simplified, this is the "___ never happened, because ____ would have punished them for it" argument.

According to this theory, insider trading and stock fraud never occured.. The SEC would've shut them down!

Contaminated food products are never hit the shelves of grocery stores, the USDA would've shut them down!

Are you seriously that daft? :rolleyes:

[Bubbles]

Wow this got de-railed into, like, the most boring thread ever.

[Loke]

I love how loke presents the alternatives.

Would you like a private firm of mercenaries known for their trigger fingers in Iraq or would you like to see soldiers in the streets?

How about a civilian response team, trained for disasters like this, is that like so far-fetched and socialist for your mind?

I'm confused by your post. I totally agree that civilian response teams, trained for disasters like that, were definitely what was needed down there. That wasn't what happened though. I get the sense you're claiming I'm some sort of right wing radical who thinks humanitarian efforts in disaster zones are in some way "socialist" - which is just way off base.. and I think you're probably the only person who got that from my posts.

I was simply stating a private security firm being used to assist in a nation disaster is much less astounding than the fact that the Marines were deployed inside the United States.

[Dominick]

I'm talking about your previous post, where you stated that allegations of misconduct against Blackwater are necessarily false, precisely because Blackwater has yet to be held liable for any misconduct by the United States government's executive branch.

There are not new, when Obama took office, he would have been briefed. There has been three (two and one coming up) annual contract reviews that he or his administration could have acted on and killed the funding.

He could have made a speech that Blackwater was a mean icky poo company, but not a peep. He can call conservatives names in a speech but he can't address such an injustice that you claim happened?

I appeal to the logic that a purportedly "progressive" "hope and change" administration would not reward people who rape service people and murder innocent civilians by paying them on a fat contract. I am not talking about liability, as in a suit or charges. I am talking about cancelling an "at will" services contract, that the government can cancel in a half hour after deciding to cancel it.

The contracts with these and other security firms are written so that if you don't need them, you send them home. There are hundreds of these firms in theater, ready to work, and able to be paid. They could replace the Blackwater people with new people for liberal political groups to make allegations against.

Its like you discover your yard workers are beating your neighbors puppy. You go outside and fire them, you don't have to keep them, unless you discover the allegation was unable to be proven.

His administration can recall eggs because a few people got a stomach ache from salmonella. His administration can try to ban drilling across a whole seabed, because one well went horribly bad. He can apologize about the United States being such a bad player internationally.

He didn't do any of those things I would expect a sane administration to be able to do. He actually awarded Blackwater a new contract, and that has thrown a lot of doubt on the claims they are an army of rapists and murderers.

http://tinyurl.com/2d4segh


Are you seriously that daft? :rolleyes:

Do you seriously think that advances your argument?

My original point can be summed up as the motivations behind Blackwater and other contractors are political.

Either Obama is complicit in Murder and rape or the allegations are not credible.

[Lazortag]

Do you have any proof of these allegations from a private security firm? Because I can definitely show you every allegation you've listed holds true for the U.S armed forces, but I haven't seen one smudge on any private security firm aside from the usual political ramifications and agendas.

This is a complete red herring. Yes the US armed forces have done sketchy shit as well, including rape, torture, wrongful killing, etc. But the difference is that the US is held to higher standards of accountability, because a soldier can always be court-martialed, when no such recourse exists for private security contractors (until recently at least - the Iraqi government I think has the jurisdiction to prosecute them now under the SOFA agreement, or some other agreement, I'm not sure). Numerous allegations have been made against Blackwater (many of which probably carry enough evidence for some sort of conviction), it doesn't matter whether there's incontrovertible proof of these allegations, the point is that they've been made. It's actually kind of amusing that you say you can "prove" that many of the things I said hold true for the US military, when the only reason you can prove anything is that the accusations against them can actually be presented and argued in a court, whereas private security contractors are demonstrably harder to prosecute.

I'm sure Abacab that you're well-aware that sometimes US soldiers commit crimes but for [often political] reasons they either go unpunished or are given a slap on the wrist (just look at the wikileaks video of the helicopter shooting in Iraq for evidence of this). Why wouldn't the same hold true for Blackwater? Why are you all so convinced that their record is spotless?

Also, Azeth is stupid.

[G13]

I'm sure Abacab that you're well-aware that sometimes US soldiers commit crimes but for [often political] reasons they either go unpunished or are given a slap on the wrist (just look at the wikileaks video of the helicopter shooting in Iraq for evidence of this). Why wouldn't the same hold true for Blackwater? Why are you all so convinced that their record is spotless?

Wikileaks was completely discredited over that video. The people being attacked by US forces were carrying RPGS and AK47s

Get your facts straight

[Contact]

"Either Obama is complicit in Murder and rape or the allegations are not credible."

Beautiful straw man, absolutely fabulous. Blackwater was, at the time, the only firm capable of protecting American diplomats etc. in Iraq w/o a total reorganization. Being a pragmatist, Obama went with continuity over endangering the civil corps over there. Was it a moral choice? Whatever. Explain to me why Blackwater now has a new name if they are so innocent. Big tough men that couldn't handle the heat? Hardly.

[Sarkov]

Guys calm down its just a guild name... :\

[Serrack]

Wikileaks was completely discredited over that video. The people being attacked by US forces were carrying RPGS and AK47s

Wow, didn't know that. Do you have any sources for that information? I'd love to take that to a similar argument on a different board.

TIA

[Dominick]

Wow, didn't know that. Do you have any sources for that information? I'd love to take that to a similar argument on a different board.

TIA

It was rolling around SA for a while. When you look at freezes you can see they are armed.

[Zexa]

Straw man ad hominem red herring, therefore non sequitur circular reasoning.

I learneded that debating on the internet is easier if I know these words.

[Zexa]

It was rolling around SA for a while. When you look at freezes you can see they are armed.

I assume you're talking about the incident with the Iraqi Reuters journalists. There were a group of men standing around in a courtyard being watched from the air. They were armed but you are allowed an AK-47 and weren't making any threatening actions. There was a fire fight with US forces nearby and the pilot saw one of the journalists go down on one knee, raise his camera to record, and then took him out.

It did look like he was holding an RPG.

[Hasbinbad]

Straw man ad hominem red herring, therefore non sequitur circular reasoning.

I learneded that debating on the internet is easier if I know these words.
Zexa is sexa.

[Dominick]

It did look like he was holding an RPG.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2808/rpg1.jpg


Can you decide in the field which of these two items this is?
a:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Rpg-7.jpg

b:
http://www.2000television.com/media.php?file=88

[guineapig]

Not sure where you got that meme from but it's not from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EzLmDwQYx0

In case you have a short attention span the journalists get killed within the first 2 and a half minutes.

[guineapig]

Nice try though.

[New England Patriots]

Not sure where you got that meme from but it's not from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EzLmDwQYx0

In case you have a short attention span the journalists get killed within the first 2 and a half minutes.

told the motheerfucker get a new job

[Dominick]

Not sure where you got that meme from but it's not from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EzLmDwQYx0

In case you have a short attention span the journalists get killed within the first 2 and a half minutes.

Bullshit look at :58 seconds.

You can see the RPG there, he then lugs it to the side of the building. AN RPG-7 with a few loads is 15lbs with 6lbs each reload.

You can also see at 1:05 a guy ducking around a corner, right before they report shots fired.

[guineapig]

Bullshit look at :58 seconds.

You can see the RPG there, he then lugs it to the side of the building. AN RPG-7 with a few loads is 15lbs with 6lbs each reload.

You can also see at 1:05 a guy ducking around a corner, right before they report shots fired.

I took another look at the original footage. The guy in your screenshot is not one of the journalists, nor is he walking with them.
The helicopter circles around the building and ends up blowing away the journalists instead of the people in the yard.

You can clearly see the journalists walking right pasts the people in the picture you posted. The gunner ends up following the wrong people with his gun.
Just move the bar back and forth between the 30 second and 2 minute mark and you will see what I'm talking about.

I can't be 100% certain about this but no where in the footage do you even see the guy you are referring to being fired upon. Is it an RPG? Possibly... Is he with the 2 camera guys? No.

[guineapig]

At 0:46 the gunner moves his sites off the camera man on to the guys you have in your picture.
He keeps an on these guys for a good while.
At 1:14 the gunner completely loses site of the guy in your picture.
At 1:16 He has his sites on one of the guys next to him.
At 1:20 he moves his target over to the corner. At this point he has switched his target to one of the 2 camera men that were heading in that direction.

Looks like the gunner got distracted by the helicopter circling the building or something because he definitely switches targets 3 times in those 30 seconds.

[Dominick]

I took another look at the original footage. The guy in your screenshot is not one of the journalists, nor is he walking with them.
The helicopter circles around the building and ends up blowing away the journalists instead of the people in the yard.

You can clearly see the journalists walking right pasts the people in the picture you posted. The gunner ends up following the wrong people with his gun.
Just move the bar back and forth between the 30 second and 2 minute mark and you will see what I'm talking about.

I can't be 100% certain about this but no where in the footage do you even see the guy you are referring to being fired upon. Is it an RPG? Possibly... Is he with the 2 camera guys? No.

Is the guy they are claiming to be a journalist with a guy who looked like he was carrying an RPG? Yes. I looked again and this sticks.

How many excuses are you going to make?

:cool: Hey that guy has an RPG.
:p Its ok he isnt with us!
:cool:OK stand aside so I can shoot him with my gatling gun.


Larry Niven's Law #1
(a) Never throw shit at an armed man.
(b) Never stand next to someone who is throwing shit at an armed man.

[Lazortag]

Uh, in the wikileaks video a whole bunch of children were massacred too weren't they? I seem to remember the guy in the cockpit recording saying something like "it's their fault for bringing their kids into this", referring to some children who were inadvertently killed too. I'm not saying there can never be an argument in favor of attacking hostile targets that use civilians as human shields, but rather that this is what we should be talking about, and not the unresolvable question of whether some dude was carrying a camera or a gun. For the record I find it extremely hard to believe that a reuters journalist was carrying a weapon with the intent to use it.

[New England Patriots]

Uh, in the wikileaks video a whole bunch of children were massacred too weren't they? I seem to remember the guy in the cockpit recording saying something like "it's their fault for bringing their kids into this", referring to some children who were inadvertently killed too. I'm not saying there can never be an argument in favor of attacking hostile targets that use civilians as human shields, but rather that this is what we should be talking about, and not the unresolvable question of whether some dude was carrying a camera or a gun. For the record I find it extremely hard to believe that a reuters journalist was carrying a weapon with the intent to use it.

lazor fuck off :)

[Lazortag]

Wikileaks was completely discredited over that video. The people being attacked by US forces were carrying RPGS and AK47s

Get your facts straight

Also, this was responding to this post:

I'm sure Abacab that you're well-aware that sometimes US soldiers commit crimes but for [often political] reasons they either go unpunished or are given a slap on the wrist (just look at the wikileaks video of the helicopter shooting in Iraq for evidence of this). Why wouldn't the same hold true for Blackwater? Why are you all so convinced that their record is spotless?

Which means you and many others missed the point. My point was that the US military sometimes gets away with war crimes because there's just too much political opposition to prosecuting them in those cases (this is probably true of most militaries but I honestly haven't heard of many such accusations against non-US militaries in the news that I remember). You would have to be unfathomably ignorant to deny that this is at least SOMETIMES true. Surely, then, Blackwater operatives have SOMETIMES committed horrible offenses and should be held to at least the same critical standards we would hold the US military. Then add to that the fact that there was, for a while, a legal difficulty in prosecuting them (probably because many of them aren't US nationals and can't be court martialed, but this is just my limited understanding of the situation). Is it so unreasonable to think that this means that Blackwater might commit more war crimes than the average military?

[Lazortag]

oh, and sorry for the triple post, but I'd just like to apologize massively for causing this shitstorm with what I thought was a harmless comment about Blackwater's name.

[Dominick]

Uh, in the wikileaks video a whole bunch of children were massacred too weren't they?

A van stopped picking up some of the insurgents. It was targeted and destroyed as well. The belief is that there were kids on board.

It was not a massacre of a whole bunch of kids. They brought kids in the van and picked up people who were part of an engagement. It sucks that kids were shot. Its not something I like to see.

As an aside, many of you have families that probably were born here and lived here in peace and prosperity.

My mother lived through two wars. I was born after escaping the last. My mother lived under Nazi occupation and many of her friends were killed, during the initial war, during Nazi occupation, and during the American invasion. Later others were killed in revolution in North Africa.

War sucks hard. I hope we never have one here, I work hard to ensure we don't have more elsewhere. My pet theory is that there is always an asshole, and thats how wars start.

Does it justify the deaths of innocent children whose father took them into harms way? No, we can never justify that. It was part of an act of war.

My point here is that the guys on the chopper believe they were fighting insurgents. They can't check a press pass. The thought they saw a RPG, and I think there was one.

I think we ran this shit into the ground enough.

[purist]

It’s clear that the majority of the people are in the crowd fired upon are in fact unarmed. There is confusion as to whether two of the people are armed or whether there’s a camera or arm. Something important to remember on that note is that the video is of substantially lower quality than what the pilots were seeing, so posting a screen capture is really a retarded attempt to make a point. The video was converted through many stages to digital.

Of course, it later turns out those people are simply holding cameras. But we go on from there into seeing the shooting of people rescuing a wounded man, and none of those people are armed, and none of which anybody but a callous terrorist would try to justify.

[taxi2]

You cant take this incident in isolation, without taking a look at the broader picture. US warplanes bombed the serbian television tower in belgrade in 1999. A number of journalists have been killed by NATO forces, Al-jazeera was bombed in afghanistan. 2 journalists from al-jazeera after being detained for a couple of days in afghanistan.

Its the same reason why in protests now, in the western countries, cops go after people with cameras and smash, confiscate, intimidate, beat up people with cameras. Its because of the raw footage. I think were going to reach a point now where people will be streaming live from the internet, so that alot more stuff like this is going to come out. Im just wondering what steps the authorities are going to take next to prevent this from happening. Maybe they will outlaw video cameras because they are a "threat to national security".

[guineapig]

Is the guy they are claiming to be a journalist with a guy who looked like he was carrying an RPG? Yes. I looked again and this sticks.

How many excuses are you going to make?



I don't need to make any excuses. The video clearly shows that neither of the 2 journalists are the guy in your screen capture. You whole argument is fail on this very first point!

It also shows that neither of the 2 journalists are holding that even remotely look like the object in the screen capture. One guy is on a cell phone and the other is holding his camera when they get shot down. The gunner completely looses site of the person in your screen capture.

Later on, as others have stated the video shows the gunner completely destroying the van that they were attempting to load the wounded people into as well. To be clear nobody near the van is holding a weapon, they are holding a dying man.


I don't need to say anything more, the video is right there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EzLmDwQYx0

[Dominick]

I don't need to make any excuses. The video clearly shows that neither of the 2 journalists are the guy in your screen capture. You whole argument is fail on this very first point!


DIng

thanks for playing

[guineapig]

Is the guy they are claiming to be a journalist with a guy who looked like he was carrying an RPG?


No.

The are walking down the street.
0:16-0:30

They pass a group of people on a corner.
They never stop. They keep walking.
0:30-0:50

Then the gunner focuses his attention on the guys who looks like he has the RPG. 0:51

There is nothing linking those 2 groups of people together other than the fact that they are both occupying the same busy street.


Last time I checked, it's not okay to kill somebody because they walked past somebody with a weapon.

[Dominick]

Larry Niven's Law #1
(a) Never throw shit at an armed man.
(b) Never stand next to someone who is throwing shit at an armed man.



If I saw a guy walking down the street with an RPG I would get away.

Your story has grown tiresome. It is time to dance.

[taxi2]

Someone start a thread where the GMs get to have the last words and gloat about it, and lol cuz nobody can answer back.

[Sirbanmelotz]

Newbs