"wow raiding is takes alot more skill than eq" - SamwiseRed

[toolshed]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1699902&postcount=54

wow raiding is takes alot more skill than eq, what are you talking about. in eq you can bring 400 players to naggy if you want. there is no cap. raid bosses go down in 10 seconds or less most of the time. leveling here is pretty damn easy as this game is 15 years old and everyone knows the places to go. i dont play everquest because of the "challenge", i play it because i love the game world, norrath.

[toolshed]

EQ raiding is way less forgiving than WoW. You can full wipe in WoW and be at the boss again within seconds; hell there are even safe zones RIGHT BY the raid boss where you can buff and rez the entire party if needed. In EQ - there is not a lot of forgiveness and a wipe at a boss could mean you have to clear the entire dungeon again (with no gear, unless you have a nec) to access the raid boss again.

[toolshed]

In WoW you get way more encounters basically - there is no negative consequence to wiping

[Lune]

He said it took more skill, not that it was more tedious.

[Itap]

So you're basing the difficulty of raiding off of recovering your corpse?

[Reguiy]

Uh...it's true. Unless your definition of skill of unforgiving and time consuming. The actual encounters take more attentiveness with far less RNG involved.

[Tankdan]

It depends how you look at it.

On one hand, new content gets cleared in WoW within a couple weeks time, which was not possible in EQ. But in those couple weeks, the professional top guilds will have wiped on that boss between 150-300+ times. The access to the raids starts right away in WoW, whereas in classic EQ those bosses wont even be attempted for a long time.

[Itap]

Thats not a hint fgt, thats common knowledge

[Speedi]

Coming from someone that's raided both. There is no comparison. WoW Heroic mode raids are ALOT more difficult than EQ. Anyone that says WoW raiding is easy obviously has been doing flex or using the LFR tool. They sure as hell are not doing normal, much less Heroic modes. To put it into perspective, on a Heroic mode WoW raid you can have one person fail one DBM emote/AT and your entire raid instantly dead. Even current live EQ (raids) which are a lot more difficult than classic. They don't hold a candle to WoW.

[Schwing]

EQ raiding is way less forgiving than WoW. You can full wipe in WoW and be at the boss again within seconds; hell there are even safe zones RIGHT BY the raid boss where you can buff and rez the entire party if needed. In EQ - there is not a lot of forgiveness and a wipe at a boss could mean you have to clear the entire dungeon again (with no gear, unless you have a nec) to access the raid boss again.

Yeah, and because it's about 50x more difficult, you need to be able to wipe and try again quickly. There really is no argument, raiding is far more challenging.

[Took]

Not sure if OP serious or stupid as fuck.

[Itap]

OP stupid as fuck.

[Bardalicious]

Wow raids are more difficult.

Thread backfire.

[Bboboo]

May be more difficult but that isn't saying much.

I remember being drunk off my ass and being top DPS along side manning main mechanics of a givin fight

[Secrets]

WoW is harder than EQ by far. EQ is simply a timesink with far fewer mechanics.

The only reason why EQ is considered 'hard' is because people misappropriate 'hard' with 'unforgiving'. In WoW, you aren't penalized for your mistakes, at all, beyond getting a screen that says you lose. In EQ, if you make a mistake, it costs you more time, but you still made the mistake. There are more opportunities for mistakes in WoW as opposed to EQ which has a lesser decision making process due to number of steps and variables to consider. EQ1 PVE isn't even remotely close to the level of twitchyness that WoW offers.

And yes, twitchy games are still skill based. Most EQ1 players play EQ1 because they don't have a reaction time to play PvP games, hence why Red99 is less popular and most blue players are not willing to try red because 'it has pvp in it'. EQ1 is forgiving for time accumulated where as WoW is not forgiving for time accumulated. This is also where the social stigma and hatred for red players is formed by blue players; it's because they are lacking in reaction time for whatever excuse they offer, but what it comes down to is, EQ1 PvP is about on par for skill as WoW PvE.

Put the best WoW PvPers like Athene, Sodapoppin, etc, in Red99, and you'll see all major guilds dissolve because they can't compete with the metagame that they'll develop. I guarantee it.

[Secrets]

And one other thing is shit isnt really unique in WoW. Gear is easy as fuck to get because everyone can run a separate instance and get gear. Everquest takes forever to get your guild geared up because you are competing against other people for shit and if you wipe, you lose the mob and have to wait a shitload more time to kill it just to see if it even drops that piece you want. Having the access to gear up quickly and easy as fuck + no competition from other players = easy as fuck. It's like "well fuck lets just keep trying until we finally kill it since no one else is here....."

No argument- people in previous posts confirmed under 25.

That's not skill based, though; that's time spent versus rewards earned. Not skill used. Time spent.

Killing an NPC with 32k hitpoints on farm for 2 years is not skillful, the metagame that developed behind getting to NPCs and killing them before someone else tags it is the real skill behind EQ1 - and because of that, tears flow like a motherfucker.

Me, I just like Classic EQ because it's great if you don't consider it a competitive game and just enjoy the community and social aspects of it. I have WoW for competitive PvP/PvE if I want it.

[Thulack]

Classic EQ raiding is boring as fuck. I actually preferred the events later on in EQ's life for raiding.

[Secrets]

Furthermore, WoW gives you all the gear you need to get started, not all the gear you'd ever want.

I'm not sure if you ever played WoW (it sounds like you guys haven't for the most part) but you are given a basic set of armor and then are expected to perform your role as a tank, dps, or healer. Not learn it as you're gearing up; it's given to you on a silver platter so you can stay competitive with other players that know how to play your class.

Gear isn't the only thing that determines a players' skill in an MMO, player skill is highly attributed to how well you perform. I guarantee 95% of the druids on this server can't solo Phinny, or don't want to because they're scared of failure and an 18 hour corpse run. However, if you were to give them unlimited tries and no penalty for failure, a good 35% couldn't solo it.

EQ1 isn't a skill based game, it's a game about risk vs reward and time invested.

[SamwiseRed]

lol you seriously made a thead about this? i fuckin hate wow past vanilla but im not gonna eq fanboy it up and pretend rq raiding takes any skill. 60 war bodys attacking a dragon for less than 10 seconds while carrying around 5 charges of insta CH and other clickies aint that hard. you dont even need healers for some raids because of that OP click.

anyways OP i hope you arent as retarded as this thread you made.

[SamwiseRed]

rq = EQ, war = warm


this thread = firegiant

[Nitsude]

28 here. Played both games, a lot.

Everquest is "hard" because it's a timesink and people who can devote more time typically do the best.

WoW is "hard" because of game mechanics that have to be mastered.

Both games are excellent for different reasons. People who trash either usually never played them. Both games let the more skilled/creative player shine.

[Krycek]

If you're just comparing classic EQ boss encounters to WoW ones, then yeah WoW is more difficult. Some of the more current EQ raids on live are quite difficult though, some of the last ones I did were a few years ago in VoA. Raids like Resplendant Temple are pretty comparable to WoW raids imo.

[ctre]

Well actually.
wow encounters are just different.. as they are harder in some cases..
however Technically they are similar from that standpoint.
if you were to value raid encounters only wow vs eq.. then wow will have more..(just by the number of encounters only).
if you put value of an encounter from the release of a new pac. you have more factors to consider..
time
gear
number of players
skill
realism
If i put all those factors into account. Eq is better by far.

As for PVP
I consider the PVP in wow as great.. and EQ great as well.
however PVP in wow is not the same as EQ..
If you did PVP with the 2 best of wow vs eq.. (( then we will find it very difficult to come up with any real figures as each pvp event is run in each world.


So at the end of the day, each system is different and subject to the opinion/like of each player.. and hence this means that this debate is moot.

[katrik]

Agree w/Samwise, and what Secrets said. EQ is timesink based.

[Bardalicious]

Most people here grew up on WoW. Half of them didn't even see VP at that point so there is no real comparison. But I would definitely say more guilds destroyed BWL over a year span from release to a year than guilds saw VP in a 2 year span.

Another forum warrior making up statistics to support his own opinion.

EQ had a tremendous learning curve when it launched because it was the first MMORPG most people had played. 15 years later, we've learned that time spent does not directly equate to amount of player skill, which is what this era of EQ revolved directly around because it was more profitable to keep players heavily invested in timesinks, nothing more nothing less.

Your bullshit statistic about VP could easily be said about original Naxx for instance.

[Raev]

of course EQ raiding is easy

all the encounters are the same. Train away, sneak tag, mallet, CH chain, turn off autoattack for enrage, push to interrupt gate, whine over loot.

[nithyan]

WoW raiding sucks, it is far too easy, its pay to win and it sucks all around. Every expansion you can buy the game to get a free character with gear that trumps most of the basic gear people spent time to earn in the game the last expansion.

lol what the fuck are you on about.

[Niedar]

WoW takes more skill this should not even be controversial

[toolshed]

EQ raiding has changed so much since the original game that I think it matters what expansion you choose to compare WoW to. Sure, the original game and first expansions had incredibly linear raid encounters, but especially with PoP and encounters like The Rathe Council - that shit took a lot of time to figure out and had a tremendous learning curve.

I only played WoW up to The Burning Crusade and never encountered a very 'hard' raid encounter like The Rathe Council in EQ.

[Psionide]

Ok Ok WOW has harder raiding.........games still trash.

[Niedar]

do agree

[Bardalicious]

If you think World of Warcraft didnt try to come out with more efficient ways to keep you addicted and trying to learn from Everquests mistakes to get a higher player base

You're too stupid to realize you're arguing my point for me in this sentence and it makes me feel bad.

[Atamen]

EQ raiding has changed so much since the original game that I think it matters what expansion you choose to compare WoW to. Sure, the original game and first expansions had incredibly linear raid encounters, but especially with PoP and encounters like The Rathe Council - that shit took a lot of time to figure out and had a tremendous learning curve.

I only played WoW up to The Burning Crusade and never encountered a very 'hard' raid encounter like The Rathe Council in EQ.

Rathe Council was grueling. The sheer amount of focus it took everyone in the raid to exert for the 2 hours it took to setup the encounter was incredible.

All it took was 1 missed heal on the groups tanking the non mezzables or one enchanter or bard getting a badly timed mez resist and it was game over, total wipe and the encounter blown until it popped back up a week later or whatever it was.

In fact, 3 out of the 4 elemental plane bosses in POP were highly stressful due to the stakes, and the uniqueness of the encounters.

There are some aspects of wow raiding that make it difficult, but for my money nothing compares to some of those raids in PoP and later expansions. They were just cruel.

[Pokesan]

WoW takes more skill this should not even be controversial

[toolshed]

Rathe Council was grueling. The sheer amount of focus it took everyone in the raid to exert for the 2 hours it took to setup the encounter was incredible.

All it took was 1 missed heal on the groups tanking the non mezzables or one enchanter or bard getting a badly timed mez resist and it was game over, total wipe and the encounter blown until it popped back up a week later or whatever it was.

In fact, 3 out of the 4 elemental plane bosses in POP were highly stressful due to the stakes, and the uniqueness of the encounters.

There are some aspects of wow raiding that make it difficult, but for my money nothing compares to some of those raids in PoP and later expansions. They were just cruel.

Glad someone else that was playing EQ at the highest level could come in and comment.

I've played both with high end guilds and PoP is my favorite raiding expansion of all time. Nothing compares to PoTime in its prime

[Colgate]

EQ raiding is way less forgiving than WoW. You can full wipe in WoW and be at the boss again within seconds; hell there are even safe zones RIGHT BY the raid boss where you can buff and rez the entire party if needed. In EQ - there is not a lot of forgiveness and a wipe at a boss could mean you have to clear the entire dungeon again (with no gear, unless you have a nec) to access the raid boss again.

by this definition would you say that red99 takes more skill than blue99 since you also have to deal with PvP as well?

[toolshed]

by this definition would you say that red99 takes more skill than blue99 since you also have to deal with PvP as well?

yes

[topgun1027]

WoW is harder than EQ by far. EQ is simply a timesink with far fewer mechanics.

The only reason why EQ is considered 'hard' is because people misappropriate 'hard' with 'unforgiving'. In WoW, you aren't penalized for your mistakes, at all, beyond getting a screen that says you lose. In EQ, if you make a mistake, it costs you more time, but you still made the mistake. There are more opportunities for mistakes in WoW as opposed to EQ which has a lesser decision making process due to number of steps and variables to consider. EQ1 PVE isn't even remotely close to the level of twitchyness that WoW offers.

And yes, twitchy games are still skill based. Most EQ1 players play EQ1 because they don't have a reaction time to play PvP games, hence why Red99 is less popular and most blue players are not willing to try red because 'it has pvp in it'. EQ1 is forgiving for time accumulated where as WoW is not forgiving for time accumulated. This is also where the social stigma and hatred for red players is formed by blue players; it's because they are lacking in reaction time for whatever excuse they offer, but what it comes down to is, EQ1 PvP is about on par for skill as WoW PvE.

Put the best WoW PvPers like Athene, Sodapoppin, etc, in Red99, and you'll see all major guilds dissolve because they can't compete with the metagame that they'll develop. I guarantee it.

Gave up agreeing with anything you said when these were mentioned..fanboys..

[wycca]

EQ Classic raiding is unforgiving, but fairly basic.

However, Blizzard had an employee guild in to mine EQ - first Storm Guard, then they merged into LoS. They pretty much had the benefit of years of distilling & reviewing EQ in creating their initial content.

What most posters here don't seem to realize, is that EQ raiding kept developing but still remained very unforgiving. Comparing Classic EQ raiding to WoW is like taking a Formula1 car 2-3 years old and comparing it to today's cars.

EQ raiding, in later expansions - DoDH, Solteris, etc became not only complex & scripted but also remained unforgiving. Basically you can't focus on EQ raiding 2-3 years before WoW launched, and compare it to years of development in WoW raids years later.

[Galelor]

Glad someone else that was playing EQ at the highest level could come in and comment.

I've played both with high end guilds and PoP is my favorite raiding expansion of all time. Nothing compares to PoTime in its prime

PoP was my favorite expansion too. While some of Luclin had mechanics other than tank/spank, PoP was really where raiding took off imo. (By the way, PoP came out 2 years before WoW was even released.) I raided eq expansions on and off at a high level from Kunark though 14 or 15 expansions. P99 raiding has almost nothing in common with raiding from PoP after. If you haven't raided a lot of high end content past Luclin, you have no clue what the raid game is like.

Many later EQ encounters take 1 fuck up to wipe raids. Missed emotes, missed heals, not assisting, one mez break, not being aware of surroundings, etc. Not all encounters are like this, but many are like this.

I'd like to add that PvP on EQ was basically total garbage. This was because EQ was built as a PvE game. Comparing EQ PvP to WoW PvP is stupid because EQ wasn't built around PvP like WoW was. Red dudes can argue all they want, but the numbers don't bull shit...

[Gwence]

Rathe Council was grueling. The sheer amount of focus it took everyone in the raid to exert for the 2 hours it took to setup the encounter was incredible.

All it took was 1 missed heal on the groups tanking the non mezzables or one enchanter or bard getting a badly timed mez resist and it was game over, total wipe and the encounter blown until it popped back up a week later or whatever it was.

In fact, 3 out of the 4 elemental plane bosses in POP were highly stressful due to the stakes, and the uniqueness of the encounters.

There are some aspects of wow raiding that make it difficult, but for my money nothing compares to some of those raids in PoP and later expansions. They were just cruel.

That's not true, you could wipe on rathe council all day and keep attempting it, if you killed the 12 and then failed avatar of earth then you'd have to wait for respawn but no one failed AoE he was the joke part of the fight

Xegony had no timer
FR had a really long timer and then 24 hr on the mob that started the script if failed

Corinav and RZ were 2 that had very tight timers and was 3 days to wait if you failed

[Gwence]

Also wow raiding is way more difficult than eq it's not even a discussion

You need basically need 1 good player from every role in EQ which equates to maybe 10 good players in a raid of 40 and you will kill 90% of bosses without breaking a sweat at a competitive level in eq, unless every single player is pro you won't kill a single thing in a game like wow at the top end pve level

[Norathorr]

I think currently wow is a lot harder in terms of fight mechanics. Timesinks do not equate to difficulty, they are just a matter of patience. Pop had some hard raids like rathe and coirnav. Layer expansions like dodh and tbs had tough end zones. Eq raids wre largely about controling mechanics over a long period and wipes tended to be gradual breakdowns. I raided wow a bit in cataclysm and in all honesty it was way harder than anything I had encountered in eq from classic to voa. Mechanically the fights were very reactive. One fuck up and you are dead and the consequences of that death were more sever with the smaller raid sizes.

[Orruar]

Never raided in WoW, but it's hard to believe anything would take less skill than EQ raiding, at least in the era we're in on P99. I mean, shit dies within 30 seconds of spawning here, with the biggest challenge being who can tag the mob first. The only skill here is convincing 30 unemployed people to not seek gainful employment and to leave their EQ client at server select with 8 toons ready to go depending on which mob pops.

Later expansions in EQ were far more challenging, but early EQ was pretty easy. Even PoP was fairly easy really. Coirnav was on the path to difficult encounters, but it was artificially difficult due to the lockout on failure. Took our guild like 3-4 attempts to do rathe. It was more about planning than anything. DoDh, TSS (prenerf), and TBS are where EQ raiding really got difficult. Of course those are about 8 expansions too late for this server.

[Whirled]

IMO, Wow uses bigger numbers to impress. EQ is lower numbers closer to 0 which means corpse art. WoW is easier than EQ but it is still a good game. Obviously the earlier on in (or start of) a game is usually when the thrill is fresh. I guess that's the same thrill we all try to seek each time we log in 'again' perhaps?
ehh...
54 Wiz LFG PST

[toolshed]

Everyone is saying "EQ just takes numbers" but nobody is mentioning organizing a raid force of ~70 people with ZERO voice chat and how difficult that is

[Orruar]

Everyone is saying "EQ just takes numbers" but nobody is mentioning organizing a raid force of ~70 people with ZERO voice chat and how difficult that is

I found voice chat to be more of a distraction than anything. We didn't use voice chat in my guild and we did pretty well. Some people just can't stop themselves from talking. There's a significant portion of the population that has a pretty low threshold of when to turn thought directly into speech.

[Lictor]

Eh voice chat overrated. Our guild had server firsts from mc - aq without vent or coms

[SamwiseRed]

Everyone is saying "EQ just takes numbers" but nobody is mentioning organizing a raid force of ~70 people with ZERO voice chat and how difficult that is

lol

[SamwiseRed]

how hard is it to tell me to autoattack and use their spells?

[Bardalicious]

Mashing auto attack and CH hotkeys is challenging for some people...

[drktmplr12]

Everyone is saying "EQ just takes numbers" but nobody is mentioning organizing a raid force of ~70 people with ZERO voice chat and how difficult that is

Everyone is saying that because it's true.

a good main group can carry an entire raid in EQ 9 times out of 10..

Most difficult wow fights depend on everyone pulling their weight.

It took our guild 150 tries to kill anub-arak in TOGC 25m hm. Wouldn't you know that we did it on our second attempt in the 4th week. Our first attempt.. we got him to <200k hp with 50 attempts remaining and then one of the off tanks dropped.. we wiped instantly, but killed him the very next attempt. Never did get the '50 attempts remaining' achievement.. :(

The point is people wouldn't still be attempting bosses in EQ after 150 tries because of the amount of time it takes to recover. people would log off because they arent having fun.

[Bohab]

Most EQ1 players play EQ1 because they don't have a reaction time to play PvP games, hence why Red99 is less popular and most blue players are not willing to try red because 'it has pvp in it'.

Uhh sorry there buddy but that's a pretty ignorant statement. You are pretty much blanketing that idea that EQ1 players that only PvE are poor gamers. Personally I don't like EQ1 PvP because of this statement you made:


The only reason why EQ is considered 'hard' is because people misappropriate 'hard' with 'unforgiving'.


EQ1 is 'unforgiving' enough where I don't need extra corpse retrievals as well as corpse looting. I don't have time for that nonsense. I also find EQ1 PvP to be incredibly unbalanced.

Really the only PvE game I pretty much play is EQ1. I prefer to play PvP games... but just because I don't like EQ1 PvP doesn't mean I'm too "slow" to compete.

[katrik]

Spent 4 hours learning heroics with a group of fresh 100 buddies. Shit's no joke, had a blast.

[FoxxHound]

DAoC

[toolshed]

how hard is it to tell me to autoattack and use their spells?

For classic raiding in EQ this may be the case, but you are just pointing out that you have never raided any of the best content in EQ, ie rathe

[toolshed]

Everyone is saying that because it's true.

a good main group can carry an entire raid in EQ 9 times out of 10..

Most difficult wow fights depend on everyone pulling their weight.

It took our guild 150 tries to kill anub-arak in TOGC 25m hm. Wouldn't you know that we did it on our second attempt in the 4th week. Our first attempt.. we got him to <200k hp with 50 attempts remaining and then one of the off tanks dropped.. we wiped instantly, but killed him the very next attempt. Never did get the '50 attempts remaining' achievement.. :(

The point is people wouldn't still be attempting bosses in EQ after 150 tries because of the amount of time it takes to recover. people would log off because they arent having fun.

Got it

Organizing 70+ people = EZ PZ MR BREEZIE

Organizing 5 people = omfg guys how can we coordinate this is so hard how does language work

[Tankdan]

Tunare took like 8 months to kill

AoW was hardly even killed in his expansion.

Cataclysm Ragnaros took 300+ wipes.


Difficulty is how you define it.

[Raev]

Organizing 70+ people = EZ PZ MR BREEZIE

Organizing 70 people in Kunark is 1 line: PLZ PUT ON MR GEAR AND TURN ON AUTOATTACK

[toolshed]

Organizing 70 people in Kunark is 1 line: PLZ PUT ON MR GEAR AND TURN ON AUTOATTACK

For classic raiding in EQ this may be the case, but you are just pointing out that you have never raided any of the best content in EQ, ie rathe

[Woe1988]

WoW raiding is very difficult in you are competitive. A joke if you are a LFRer.

EQ raiding WAS complicated when we played with dialup, no one used VoIP, and bat phone was not a thing.

P99 raid IS a pain in the ass. Bunch of neckbeards dealing with P99 rules on an over populated server. No thanks bro.

Apples are not oranges. :<

[Stormfists]

Tbh EQ2 > all in terms of skill required for raiding.

EQ is zerg mode.
WoW is raiding-lite.
EQ2 endgame is 110% scripted. Fully populated endgame geared guilds wipe in seconds without correct strats.

[LostCause]

here is a real question when tis the last time any of you ppl defending eq played WoW/ just curious...

[Norathorr]

The best raiding era in eq in terms of skill was either 2 of 4 wo gods or dodh through tbs. I think demiplane and solteris definitely were brutal zones and also had that epic feel. I think the hardest difficulty wow raids blow current eq and p1999 eq out of the water in terms of difficulty. To win at p1999 you simply have to be there. That is it. He who has the will to log in at any time of night or day in sufficient numbers to fuck a poor cowering mob in the ass in ten seconds flat wins. Dedication yes skill no. In wow you could wipe 100 + times and still not win. Sure gear is made obscelete with new expansions, but the challenge in competing at the top level is far greater than anything eq in this or its current form has to offer.

[Mirana]

Difficulty is how you define it.

Thread summarized in 6 words.

Difficulty = Technical play? Reaction/timing? Logistics? Time consumed? Consequence of failure?

This entire thread is semantics.

[Mirana]

A good group will not stop a wipe if some idiot decides to train Trak or any other train in VP/ToV and wipes the whole raid. Raids still wipe 15 years later from the variance of that shit. Go back to Naxx and see how many times you wipe on a Emu server. Guaranteed that shit is a cake walk now.

Are you trying to argue that "NOT walking up to Trakanon and then running back to your raid force" takes skill?

You are basically saying that it takes skill to NOT press buttons on your keyboard.

People can wipe on any game if some dipshit aggros tons of mobs and trains them on the raid. Is that really your argument?

[Duckwalk]

Some people desparetly searching for some validation in their lives.

[Orruar]

Not only does EQ as it exists on P99 take incredible skill, but this skill is immensely useful in the real world. Keep on collecting those VP pixels guys and you'll be landing that 6 figure job in no time.

[Samoht]

three words: barrier to entry

in EQ, it's insane. keys are hard to get, gear is hard to get, resists are a requirement.

in wow, they pretty much hand everything to you and you get to raid. they took out resists as a requirement before the first expansion. raid zones are instanced, so there's no interference (compared to p99, not modern EQ), and you get to walk RIGHT UP TO THE FUCKING BOSS AND START PUNCHING HIM.

that's right: they basically got rid of raid trash during WOTLK. if that's not easy and dumbed down raiding, i'm not sure what is.

also, adding pointless mechanics just for the sake of adding pointless mechanics is not the same thing as making the fight more difficult. it's clear that wow ran out of fresh ideas a long time ago and the raid encounters became jokes.

by the way, i had a server first kill on heroic LK and several 50 attempts remaining in togc 10/25. wow was so monotonous that i switched to rift shortly before discovering p99.

i still think rift is much superior to wow in terms of balance and class design. both games are pay to win and the mmorpg design is over.

play mobas.

[Woe1988]

play mobas.

http://images.elephantjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/old-man-laughing.jpg

Mobas have to be the gayest of all game styles, and has nothing to do with this thread.

Poopsock boss is harder than anything IB/TMO will ever have to kill. Yeah, this includes keys.

Sunwell & Yogg Zero Light are harder than the poopsock boss.

Rift is fun, but remains irrelevant.

[Reguiy]

Everyone is saying "EQ just takes numbers" but nobody is mentioning organizing a raid force of ~70 people with ZERO voice chat and how difficult that is

Guys, we're being trolled.

[pasi]

It makes me feel warm that the community is starting to acknowledge that EQ is a very easy game that happens to be very punishing if you are bad at the game. Once you reach a basic level of competency, it stops being punishing.

[Psionide]

MOBAs are the best form of PvP.

[Faron]

It makes me feel warm that the community is starting to acknowledge that EQ is a very easy game that happens to be very punishing if you are bad at the game. Once you reach a basic level of competency, it stops being punishing.

EQ players seem to have their minds clouded with nostalgia which makes them think that the fact that it takes more time to level in this game equates to difficulty on any real level. Raiding in WoW is arcade style button mashing that requires some fast reaction times. Raiding in EQ means turning on attack for around 30 seconds.

[Byrjun]

yeah hes right. Take for instance Velious, the hardest boss is a numbers fight. requires gear + people. in WoW you actually have to move around and do more than auto attack. Not much of a debate, pretty one sided. WoW is more difficult

Man, running around. That is a difficult raid mechanic. Took me about 40 levels before I mastered moving.

Would be an interesting experiment to transplant a WoW raid guild into P99 class C raiding. See if they can even pull a dragon to the entrance of VP.

And that's the classic era, not even considering raids like The Rathe Council, PoTime Innoruuk, Quarm, etc. I haven't played a lot of WoW but I played enough to get a gist of their design philosophy and I'd be very willing to bet there's nothing that matches the difficulty of those raids + a bunch of others in EQ.

[Lucia Moonglow]

I hate when people try to turn a subjective statement into an objective one. What defines "difficult" to one person could be different to another.

EQ Raids
EQ raids are more tedious and less forgiving than WoW raids. If you screw up, you're going to spend the next hour or more organizing and recovering, and everyone that dies loses experience permanently that must be regained. It's very accurate to say that the price of failure in an EQ raid is far, far greater. Worse still, if a raid does call for a specific tactic, such as a CH rotation, mob positioning, or specific resist gear, one mistake can end up blowing the entire raid for the rest of the night, because the recovery time may disqualify members that only had a limited amount of time to raid in.

The flip side to this is that, for the most part, the class dynamics don't change much in a raid, and with a few exceptions like fear/AE and on later raids like the PoP ones, the same "pull, tank, heal" philosophy applies to every single raid. It's rare for raids to have any special or unusual mechanic like running around to pull switches, alternating between the groups inflicting damage, or such things. Typically, once your raid force knows what they're doing, classic EQ raids are mostly the same, and the only things that change are the preparation pulls and the timing.

An EQ raid is basically a carefully laid-out plan that you lay out, communicate, and then watch as it's executed. If it goes off the rails, the raid can easily crash and destroy hours of preparation and cost hours more in recovery.

WoW Raids
WoW raids have an entirely different dynamic that is focused far more on active, careful control and constantly focusing on the action every second, but a lot of that comes from the game's mechanics themselves. Playing a healer in WoW isn't as simple as watching bars and playing whack-a-mole, because in order to get maximum effectiveness out of it, you have to set up combos and spell rotations, and that's true of every single class in the game, so timing and individual skill play into it a lot more, in contrast to EQ classes where most of them have a very basic, layered stacking mechanic for spells.

Another aspect of WoW raids is that they're designed for a specific number of players. That's both good and bad. The good is that you know that your 20 or 40 man raid force will be able to complete the raid if your gear and tactics are sound. The bad is that you basically have to be properly geared and have sound tactics, because it's impossible to offset inferior equipment with greater numbers.

The flip side for WoW is that there's really no penalty for failure. Wiping simply means reorganizing and charging in again. Your equipment might take damage, but by raiding level, the price of repairs is trivial. You're also limited as to who you can bring on a raid, so if your guild has 74 people, only 20 of those can do the 20-man raid, leaving 54 of them out on their asses.

A WoW raid is an expedition where the players are kept constantly on their toes, highly focused on rotations and combinations, having to constantly adapt to changing conditions.

IMHO
It all depends on your play style. Both are hard, both are easy, depending on the individual. I find EQ raids easier to execute, but I also find they tend to take a lot longer to plan and prepare for, mostly because the cost of failure is so much higher.

WoW raids, on the other hand, I find way easier to plan and prepare for, but execution is far more critical because the raids are set up and designed so that your raid force is supposed to be dancing on the edge of a blade, so one or two minor mistakes can cause a cascade failure, made worse by the fact that in WoW raids, the developers know exactly how many people you're bringing to the fight, and balance the difficulty accordingly.

Ultimately, I totally agree that WoW raids seem more "difficult" during the actual battle since everyone is focusing on their DPS meters, and trying to optimize their carefully-balanced skill rotations, and watching for areas they have to dodge or avoid. It's a faster-paced fight.

However, I think a lot of EQ players (including myself) feel that EQ raids are harder not because the actual fight is more difficult, or more critical of mistakes, but because the price of failure is so high. Just how high? Let's put it this way...my raiding guild on Luclin was shattered because of a single failed battle against the Rathe Council. One lost battle, and the hours it took us to prepare, was enough to fracture my entire guild to the point that it disbanded. I doubt that any WoW guilds have collapsed due to a single failed raid.

[SamwiseRed]

^ has nothing to do what my statement

"wow raiding is takes alot more skill than eq" - SamwiseRed

this is about skill. eq raiding, at least in trilogy, is no where close to anything i would remotely consider to be challenging. tedious != difficult or challenging.

[SamwiseRed]

*with my statement

[Neno]

Way to many people in thread trying hard to justify spending 10+ hours a day playing EQ or waking up at 5am for bat phones.

Also why are people using examples of broken and untuned encounters in EQ to make it seem like it was difficult?

[Secrets]

three words: barrier to entry

in EQ, it's insane. keys are hard to get, gear is hard to get, resists are a requirement.

in wow, they pretty much hand everything to you and you get to raid. they took out resists as a requirement before the first expansion. raid zones are instanced, so there's no interference (compared to p99, not modern EQ), and you get to walk RIGHT UP TO THE FUCKING BOSS AND START PUNCHING HIM.

that's right: they basically got rid of raid trash during WOTLK. if that's not easy and dumbed down raiding, i'm not sure what is.

everything you described here takes time, not skill. EQ's a great game, but its difficulty is not why it is popular.

do trash mobs in WoW take skill, or time? they take time. hence, blizzard removed them because not everyone has 5 hours to clear NPCs that have tons of HP and pose no challenge.

ps; trash is back in cata, mop, and warlords. dunno what game you were playing but soo and other zones had trash

[Tuljin]

99% P99 bluebies only /autoattack in twink gear and are prima donnas about REQUIRING a cleric in group who does absolutely nothing but CH, as well as an Enchanter who AOE mezs sloppy pull after sloppy pull.

EQ is way harder when everybody and their uncle doesnt have a twinked Monk or Rogue.

What makes EQ great is the pacing/scale of mob encounters and attempting to "beat" the game in different ways. Very few (melee) players couldn't give two shits about timing Bash to knock out spells, and people who can cast DD stuns don't give two shits about knocking out spells to save the healer mana cause they'll just get a CH. People who have DD stun (clericsclericsclerics) never get off their ass to help out an Enc on a charm pet break. Nobody cares about clean pulls because the blue Enc can AOE mez.

This is taking the "skill" and reaction out of the game.

EQ is fun when you go into dangerous dungeons with oddball class configurations and have to make sure every single play is optimal. The great players are constantly challenging themselves and finding new ways to be effective. In EQ two caster mobs in play without an Enc can very easily be deadly, however if you're not sloppy on your pulls and using interrupts and LOS roots. This is an example of EQ being -hard-

The real issue is the majority of P99 blue are class fanboy nubs who deliberately try to take the challenge out of the game. They want to remove all danger and all reactive skill. They want their CH, they don't stun spells, they are not diligent about clean pulls and require an Enc with them. Our player base has (de)volved, and it seems to be getting worse.

[SamwiseRed]

when half your raid has 5 charges of insta CH, who needs clerics anyway right?

[Orruar]

when you kill a dragon in 30 seconds, who needs heals at all?

[Nuktari]

http://media2.giphy.com/media/NaxKt9aSzAspO/200.gif

[Nuktari]

http://media3.giphy.com/media/sO5eDV8ZBXERO/200.gif

[Samoht]

everything you described here takes time, not skill. EQ's a great game, but its difficulty is not why it is popular.

do trash mobs in WoW take skill, or time? they take time. hence, blizzard removed them because not everyone has 5 hours to clear NPCs that have tons of HP and pose no challenge.

ps; trash is back in cata, mop, and warlords. dunno what game you were playing but soo and other zones had trash

haha, you quote half my post and think you're making a point. this is why wow sucks:

also, adding pointless mechanics just for the sake of adding pointless mechanics is not the same thing as making the fight more difficult. it's clear that wow ran out of fresh ideas a long time ago and the raid encounters became jokes.

also:

Sunwell & Yogg Zero Light are harder than the poopsock boss.

these fights were not hard. long and boring is just long and boring, not difficult.

[Oleris]

No mechanics at all Kappa

http://youtu.be/6SuW_whFQaY

[Ragnaros]

EQ raiding is way less forgiving than WoW. You can full wipe in WoW and be at the boss again within seconds; hell there are even safe zones RIGHT BY the raid boss where you can buff and rez the entire party if needed. In EQ - there is not a lot of forgiveness and a wipe at a boss could mean you have to clear the entire dungeon again (with no gear, unless you have a nec) to access the raid boss again.

ever hard of camping a cleric?

[Treats]

If difficult doesn't = time consuming everyone arguing that point in this thread would be NBA or NFL stars.

Just don't have the time for that though, right??

[Bravo]

You could say wow mechanics are harder, but it goes out the window when you have basically unlimited opportunities to perfect it.
Didn't work? Just do it again, you will get it right eventually.
Right now,here people know down to the hit or cast what it takes to win the hardest raids.
However tackle it for the first time EQ is harder by far.
Your one chance better be done right or you are fucked.

[Duckwalk]

If difficult doesn't = time consuming everyone arguing that point in this thread would be NBA or NFL stars.

Just don't have the time for that though, right??

To use your analogy, WoW would be like a quarterback throwing a football to wide receiver running a complicated route through coverage requiring exact timing and a diving catch. If the receiver drops the ball they can line up and try it again. While EQ would be like two people standing 10 yards apart throwing a ball back and forth. If they drop it they have to jump up and down on one foot for an hour straight before they can continue playing catch.

Jumping up and down on one foot is hard mmmkay

[WillyWillers]

Everquest is "hard" because it's a timesink and people who can devote more time typically do the best.

WoW is "hard" because of game mechanics that have to be mastered.

Well put.

[wwoneo]

To use your analogy, WoW would be like a quarterback throwing a football to wide receiver running a complicated route through coverage requiring exact timing and a diving catch. If the receiver drops the ball they can line up and try it again. While EQ would be like two people standing 10 yards apart throwing a ball back and forth. If they drop it they have to jump up and down on one foot for an hour straight before they can continue playing catch.

Jumping up and down on one foot is hard mmmkay


Instead of jumping up and down on one foot. It would be more like they have to sit there and do absolutely nothing for 10 hours straight.
FTFY

Sitting there and doing nothing for 10 hours hard?

[Duckwalk]

Instead of jumping up and down on one foot. It would be more like they have to sit there and do absolutely nothing for 10 hours straight.
FTFY

Sitting there and doing nothing for 10 hours hard?

I was giving EQ some credit for having to clear trash post wipe and rebuff because #skillz

[wwoneo]

I was giving EQ some credit for having to clear trash post wipe and rebuff because #skillz

That's part of throwing the ball. The rest is just poopin in a sock.

[Bboboo]

Not sure why this thread has gone on for so long. MMOs in general are easy games with the varying difference of the time sink. The only thing that makes MMOs seem hard/require skill is the mass amount of idiots/scrubs that play them.

You guys are really just splitting hairs.

[bloodmuffin]

Jumping up and down on one foot is hard mmmkay

I got your point but I have to say I'd love to see how long you would actually last if you had to jump on one foot for an hour.

[Duckwalk]

I got your point but I have to say I'd love to see how long you would actually last if you had to jump on one foot for an hour.

I'm in compete agreement with you, jumping up and down on one foot for an hour in order to continue playing catch is a grueling pointless requirement that has almost zero impact on the skill related to throwing a ball back and forth.

[pasi]

It makes me wonder how bad people who feel EQ is challenging are at gaming in general. Once you get passed a basic level of competency, the punisher mechanics of EQ stop mattering.

[Bazia]

the pve in eq is so boring/trivial i cant even play the blue server

[Danth]

For a competent player who isn't also a guild leader/officer, both Everquest and Warcraft have roughly the same raid difficulty: You sit around half bored hoping your guildmates don't screw up. The main difference is in Warcraft you do less sitting around. It could be said Everquest requires more patience while Warcraft requires more attention, but the basic reality of either game's raiding remains a case of jumping through a few hoops while hoping your guildmates don't flub it.

Well, that's the case unless you're one of the folks doing the messing up. At that point I suppose that means one game or the other is hard for you. Difficulty is always relative.

Slightly off-topic, but discounting PvP (which is by nature highly variable in difficulty) I consider tough-but-fair games to be NES/SNES-era games like Battletoads or Super Ghouls N Ghosts. Like many folks here, I grew up through the Pong-Atari-NES-SNES era, and since that time it seems as though video games have spent the last twenty years growing ever easier. Everquest's own popularity stems in no small part from its being the easiest and most forgiving game of its kind when it first came out--contrast it to Ultima Online, where a random person could murder you or sell you poisoned food and take your stuff if he felt like it. Norrath was a safe-haven by comparison.

Danth

[Breeziyo]

these fights were not hard. long and boring is just long and boring, not difficult.

yogg 0 lights when it was current content not hard?

LOL

[Bboboo]

yogg 0 lights when it was current content not hard?

LOL

Well what was hard about it?

[Breeziyo]

Well what was hard about it?

you had none of the 4 keepers helping you that normally give you mechanics to make the fight much, much easier. if one person doesn't follow the mechanics perfectly they will end up being mind controlled and wipe the raid since you have no way of recovering your sanity levels etc. this is all while you need to be doing damage, managing survival cds, healing and dispelling, etc etc near perfectly as well. this is considering the only available gear is from ulduar and also not trivialized by current xpac balance changes.

it was hard as shit and remained hard into icc because of the mechanics alone. the significantly higher gear only made meeting the berserk timer easier.

http://wow.zuggaming.com/2009/04/21/yogg-saron-boss-fight-strategy-guide/ has a list of mechanics. specifically look at what the keepers bring. this is what you would be lacking during the fight.

[Paleman]

Tbh EQ2 > all in terms of skill required for raiding.

EQ is zerg mode.
WoW is raiding-lite.
EQ2 endgame is 110% scripted. Fully populated endgame geared guilds wipe in seconds without correct strats.

eq2 is fucking sad easy. eq2 endgame was cool up to TSO. I raided and played with top tier guilds on PVE and PVP servers.

The only reason EQ2 raids wipe with the best players in the best gear is because thats how they gate content in EQ2, they just make one or two spells hit harder than you can take, or break some mob mechanic so it makes the raid unkillable. They used stats to facilitate content gating all the time, when released it was resists, then it went to critical mitigation, then to crit bonus and crit chance. But raid gear pretty much made every encounter a learn how to jump through the hoops and then face roll it type of encounter, or wait til devs tuned it enough and then as usual the top guilds would kill it and it would get more tuned till most guilds were killing it.

I will say it can be hard, but its not harder than WoW Challenge raids, and I honestly can say that its easier than PoP/TSS/DoDH/OOW era raiding, which in my opinion was the most challenging raids eq had to offer.


I basically HAD to PVP in that game to make it more challenging, the best challenge was doing contested raids while raids were kiling you over them IE avatars.