It'll never be C/R

[kotton05]

FFA is here to stay. Y'all suck for fucking it up. Maybe CC/R but never c/r.

Get a grip.

[Daldaen]

It seems seeing facts has rustled some folks to maximum levels.

Class R now has 3 more guilds than when it started. Up to a total of 10. (I exclude lord Bob since they never really did anything)

Class C now has -1 more guilds than when it started. Down to a total of 2.

Shifting from 66% geared at C to 50% geared at C is a pretty logical choice given this shift in guild representation unless some take the plunge to Class C.

All that excluding you 6 weekly dragons in VP.

That'll be my only post in this thread. Just had to address the rustle so that you know I care.

[Lazie]

It seems seeing facts has rustled some folks to maximum levels.

Class R now has 3 more guilds than when it started. Up to a total of 10. (I exclude lord Bob since they never really did anything)

Class C now has -1 more guilds than when it started. Down to a total of 2.

Shifting from 66% geared at C to 50% geared at C is a pretty logical choice given this shift in guild representation unless some take the plunge to Class C.

All that excluding you 6 weekly dragons in VP.

That'll be my only post in this thread. Just had to address the rustle so that you know I care.

The facts you guys keep lying about ? I posted the truth. We have pushed for awhile now to make FFA more approachable without the poopsock. It only gets resisted by Class R guilds.

[Hitpoint]

i posted this somewhere else, i suppose its relevant enough to post here as well:

couple things.


1. We arent changing the R/C/FFA cycle to anything else.
2. VP mobs will remain Class C only mobs for as long as its the top endgame zone.
3. I will talk to the staff about a concrete way for guilds to be able to move from C to R, however this has to be done very carefully to prevent top guilds from moving down to R.


This system was created and implemented with the expectation that most of the FFA mobs would go to Class C. The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready. Thus making Class C more tempting to newer, up and coming guilds, as Class C will still have a larger piece of the pixel pie, will not suffer from lockouts, will have exclusive rights to VP and the best loots in Kunark era, and is given more room by staff to work out their own disputes (as it is the non restricted class).

not everyone may agree with this, but this is the position of the staff.

- Sirken

I'm not sure why this is still being discussed.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

It seems seeing facts has rustled some folks to maximum levels.

Class R now has 3 more guilds than when it started. Up to a total of 10. (I exclude lord Bob since they never really did anything)

Class C now has -1 more guilds than when it started. Down to a total of 2.

Shifting from 66% geared at C to 50% geared at C is a pretty logical choice given this shift in guild representation unless some take the plunge to Class C.

All that excluding you 6 weekly dragons in VP.

That'll be my only post in this thread. Just had to address the rustle so that you know I care.

Merely existing is what is required now to get raid mobs on p99?

[Argh]

In before 30 pages of civility and respectful discourse.

[Lazie]

In before 30 pages of civility and respectful discourse.

:eek:

[HeallunRumblebelly]

In before 30 pages of civility and respectful discourse.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/ADULT.gif

[Lazie]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/ADULT.gif

That is debatable.

[Whiteberry]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/ADULT.gif
Haha

[paulgiamatti]

I'M NOT A PART OF THE SYSTEM!

[iruinedyourday]

I'M NOT A PART OF THE SYSTEM!

MY DAD'S NOT A PHONE

[Troubled]

I just want coth ducking to end. It's fucking stupid and so are the people that perpetuate it.

I'd like to try racing from a set point in each zone as every FTE that doesn't have Taken in it does, or just fucking removing coth ducking so you can only coth when the mob is up.

[Troubled]

I don't buy into the "different, not better" rhetoric that surrounds coth ducking. Jav spamming and coth ducking are bottom of the barrel. Everything else is better.

[Rivthis]

Recode the mobs to spawn in random points

OR

Recode the mobs to spawn more often and/or less often in a WAY LONGER window, so you could have serv spawn 3 times in 2 days or 1 in 2 weeks. Basically WAY more randomness to when a mob will spawn.

[Raev]

R/R/R/R/R/R/R/C

NP

[HeallunRumblebelly]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Rccolauslogo.jpg

OR

http://timelessmusic.com/CD%20Images/ccr.jpg

YOU DECIDE

[Tann]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OTBPBVs65yQ/hqdefault.jpg

Feel the fizz

[Skittlez]

inb4 azure derail

[Magnar]

Recode the mobs to spawn in random points

OR

Recode the mobs to spawn more often and/or less often in a WAY LONGER window, so you could have serv spawn 3 times in 2 days or 1 in 2 weeks. Basically WAY more randomness to when a mob will spawn.

Or guild leaders can just grow up and agree to a rotation so mobs can be on their set timers like they were on live, and people won't have to keep getting up at random hours of the night just to potentially log in for 15 minutes for nothing.

I must have been on the only server where the majority of guilds were actually ran by adults. We never had any of these issues. Ever. Guild leaders would get together on the forums, plan out who was getting what during what time slots, and anyone could say 'hey, we want a shot' as long as they could prove they were capable of handling it. Yea, it resulted in the top guilds on the server eventually merging with one another and the end result being 3 major guilds that were able to do endgame content, but that's what happens. Deals were made for one guild to tag along with another guild's timeslot and pick up stuff they didn't need as long as the same deal was made the other way around and eventually people just merged. Guilds that couldn't handle something alone teamed up and then they could handle it.

TMO and IB would still have their VP playground to themselves, only they just alternate every week without having to bicker like children about it, and everything else just falls into place from there. It also gives guilds a chance who can only clear things like hate or Fear trash AN ACTUAL CHANCE at getting something, even if they can't actually kill a boss.

It's not a hard system to figure out, but it's almost 1am and any sort of logic that gives everyone an actual chance to fully enjoy the full aspect of the server is going to fall on deaf ears, anyway.

As an afterthought, to those who will immediately say a rotation will never work who are actually a part of the endgame raid scene: Imagine being able to raid without being woken up from a dead sleep because your batphone went off, but you get to plan accordingly and show up at a set time, and just kill your boss then go about your business.

[Juryiel]

As an afterthought, to those who will immediately say a rotation will never work who are actually a part of the endgame raid scene: Imagine being able to raid without being woken up from a dead sleep because your batphone went off, but you get to plan accordingly and show up at a set time, and just kill your boss then go about your business.

Exactly. I do not understand how pixels / 'competition' is more compelling than being able to raid without socking, tracking, and being woken up in the middle of the night. On my server on live everything was rotated, and each guild had 24 hours to kill their rotations after they were notified that something spawned (so not 24 hours after spawn but 24 hours after someone saw it, which could have been several hours after spawn since people did not sit in place hitting track repeatedly for hours on end).

Things like tracking mobs and batphoning didn't exist. Guilds just killed everything on their own time due to the rotation and 24 hour window. Top guilds may lose some pixels but will also not have to have people sitting and tracking, or waking up at odd hours. To me that seems like such a worthwhile tradeoff that it's hard to imagine so many people on this server aren't willing to make it. And overall, more players will have more fun.

[Oleris]

The biggest issue I am seeing is that more guilds are becoming class R adding an additional 3 weeks to the agreed upon R rotation for 7 day spawns. I'm not surprised that people are becoming upset as a "free" kill comes for every 7 day spawn comes every ~30 weeks now.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Still no Velious huh...

[Magnar]

Exactly. I do not understand how pixels / 'competition' is more compelling than being able to raid without socking, tracking, and being woken up in the middle of the night. On my server on live everything was rotated, and each guild had 24 hours to kill their rotations after they were notified that something spawned (so not 24 hours after spawn but 24 hours after someone saw it, which could have been several hours after spawn since people did not sit in place hitting track repeatedly for hours on end).

Things like tracking mobs and batphoning didn't exist. Guilds just killed everything on their own time due to the rotation and 24 hour window. Top guilds may lose some pixels but will also not have to have people sitting and tracking, or waking up at odd hours. To me that seems like such a worthwhile tradeoff that it's hard to imagine so many people on this server aren't willing to make it. And overall, more players will have more fun.

I think here it would be better if it was 24 hours after spawn to keep people still somewhat on their toes, but with spawns being on a set timer it wouldn't matter because you would KNOW when they spawn. GMs are active enough where they can easily toss out an announcement like 'Sirken Broadcasts: <Taken> forfeits Trakanon after not being able to kill him within the 24 hour allotted time limit due to wipes."

There brings up another point, though...after the 24 hours should mobs become FFA? Does the next guild in line get their turn?

For things like Trakanon there could even be a 3 strike rule - wipe 3 times and you're done, and can't attempt that mob again for a month. It'll keep people from trying to take slots they aren't capable of bringing down yet, force alliances and cooperation, and make people actually work at their own pace, rather than just trying to compete with IB and TMO.

Apologies to <Taken> for using them as my example, first name that isn't a mile long that popped into my head.

[Magnar]

Still no Velious huh...

The problem will still exist in Velious, probably even moreso because Velious has a lot more droppable gear off raid bosses. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Server First AoW kill is a combined IB/TMO effort and the loot is split just so they can bring him down and not sock over who gets server first.

Honestly, if a forced rotation was put into place, that would be the best case scenario. Just combine forces for 1 kill, knock AoW out, split the loot however the guild leaders see fit, and everyone be on their merry way to play in the snow. Not a hard concept. It's even EASIER to have a rotation in Velious because guilds are going to be on different factions at different times, so a rotation will basically already be there. If TMO decides they're going to get all of their Thurg faction stuff done first and IB decides they're going to do all of their Dragon faction stuff done first, there isn't even any conflict. The only stuff that will conflict are things like the major bosses, Velks, PoG, and PoM, but common sense dictates that it isn't that hard to figure out that a little cooperation, maturity, and just being human to each other can sort out the whole mess and make the server better for EVERYONE to play on.

[Orruar]

If TMO decides they're going to get all of their Thurg faction stuff done first and IB decides they're going to do all of their Dragon faction stuff done first, there isn't even any conflict. The only stuff that will conflict are things like the major bosses, Velks, PoG, and PoM, but common sense dictates that it isn't that hard to figure out that a little cooperation, maturity, and just being human to each other can sort out the whole mess and make the server better for EVERYONE to play on.

Anyone who has witnessed the determination of certain guilds to lock down mobs by waking up at 3am to kill a mob for the 200th time knows that these guilds will not restrict themselves to only one or two factions in Velious. They will simply have at least two toons per person so that all targets are on the table. Cooperation and maturity would be great, but the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

[Locust]

common sense dictates that it isn't that hard to figure out that a little cooperation, maturity, and just being human to each other can sort out the whole mess and make the server better for EVERYONE to play on.

common sense doesn't apply to p99 and its pixels

[kotton05]

common sense doesn't apply to p99 and its pixels

Common sense not so common round here.

[Raev]

Anyone who has witnessed the determination of certain guilds to lock down mobs by waking up at 3am to kill a mob for the 200th time knows that these guilds will not restrict themselves to only one or two factions in Velious. They will simply have at least two toons per person so that all targets are on the table.

Especially when the average player who has been on this server for 2-3 years has multiple geared 60 toons anyway. People who are expecting guilds to actually take a Dwarf/Dragon or Giant faction side are delusional.

[khanable]

Common sense not so common round here.

[radditsu]

Still no Velious huh...

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060705205949/uncyclopedia/images/2/29/ZERG_RUSH.png

[Clark]

Common sense not so common round here.

lol

[Juryiel]

I think here it would be better if it was 24 hours after spawn to keep people still somewhat on their toes, but with spawns being on a set timer it wouldn't matter because you would KNOW when they spawn. GMs are active enough where they can easily toss out an announcement like 'Sirken Broadcasts: <Taken> forfeits Trakanon after not being able to kill him within the 24 hour allotted time limit due to wipes."

There brings up another point, though...after the 24 hours should mobs become FFA? Does the next guild in line get their turn?

For things like Trakanon there could even be a 3 strike rule - wipe 3 times and you're done, and can't attempt that mob again for a month. It'll keep people from trying to take slots they aren't capable of bringing down yet, force alliances and cooperation, and make people actually work at their own pace, rather than just trying to compete with IB and TMO.

Apologies to <Taken> for using them as my example, first name that isn't a mile long that popped into my head.

Yeah, I was not offering a specific prescription, just expressing my inability to understand why people wouldn't work toward those benefits (better sleep, no tracking, no socking) in exchange for loot. As far as after failures, if a guild failed to down their mob within 24 hours (as many attempts as they wanted, but within 24 hours - and this only in practice meant a few attempts as guilds would only attempt during their primetime, not at all hours of the day), the mob moved to the next guild in line, and that guild was given 24 hours from the time they were notified that they were up. Furthermore, if a guild failed twice to down their rotation mob, they were removed from that mob's rotation and had to re-earn their spot, by beating the currently rotating guild in a race, or having the currently rotating guild allow the new guild to just try the mob. If a guild that was not on rotation got the mob to enter rotation, that guild entered the rotation BEFORE the guild that was normally up, and the guild that was up still kept its turn and was up for the next spawn.

Again, not a recipe for p99, but we had VERY few rules that were straightforward and easy to understand by even new players, and yet our server had none of the issues we see here that the GMs despise. We didn't have a whole lot of small specific rules that required people to take a P1999 Law 101 course at their local university. So it's possible, but people here don't seem to value these things (consideration of others in community, sleep, no tracking, no socking) enough to want to do it. It's really rather strange that it's instead so cut-throat to the point of sleep sacrifice for Kunark loot. It will continue to baffle me.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Because if all we are doing is cake walking in circles for loot the game really loses purpose. At least in kunark. A full rotation on blue99 is about the best red99 recruitment tool there could ever be.

[Juryiel]

As I said, not a recpie for P99 (Live always had purpose in killing new content, here not so much). Just a demonstration that if people across both class C and class R consider what each other wants sincerely, rather than constantly trying to antagonize each other, we can work out these issues with few simple rules. But for that to happen class C guilds must want class R guilds to be happy rather than seeing them as beggars, and class R guilds must want class C guilds to be happy rather than seeing them as villains.

[khanable]

But for that to happen class C guilds must want class R guilds to be happy rather than seeing them as beggars, and class R guilds must want class C guilds to be happy rather than seeing them as villains.

Won't ever happen, sadly

[Orruar]

Because if all we are doing is cake walking in circles for loot the game really loses purpose. At least in kunark. A full rotation on blue99 is about the best red99 recruitment tool there could ever be.

Are you suggesting that a rotation is cake walking and a 50 man FTE zerg rush is not?

[Hitpoint]

Are you suggesting that a rotation is cake walking and a 50 man FTE zerg rush is not?

Yes.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Are you suggesting that a rotation is cake walking and a 50 man FTE zerg rush is not?

Hasn't been 50 men in some time and at least the rushing allows for mistakes to be made and to keep it interesting. Trak for instance has a time limit per Se with the kiting and is engaged with a constantly varying force in number and composition depending on when it is engaged. Becomes this game of chicken without excessive da stalls.

[Kayso]

Especially when the average player who has been on this server for 2-3 years has multiple geared 60 toons anyway. People who are expecting guilds to actually take a Dwarf/Dragon or Giant faction side are delusional.

I only had one toon on live and we killed everything. I was max KOS prior to getting my Dain head and I was able to turn it in to Tormax within a spawn cycle or two.

[Magnar]

Because if all we are doing is cake walking in circles for loot the game really loses purpose. At least in kunark. A full rotation on blue99 is about the best red99 recruitment tool there could ever be.

It really isn't. Maybe for the immature kiddies it is, but the server is better without them, anyway. I keep hearing all these stories about the raid scene on servers like Solusek Ro or Xegony and I just think to myself wow, I wasn't aware 8 year olds were allowed online back then. I can log onto my server right now, and the guilds who set up the rotation system back in '99 are STILL PLAYING with most of the same members. Tell me again how the game loses purpose?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I still visit chat rooms sometimes too magnar. But when I want to play games I'd like a little bit of challenge at least.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It really isn't. Maybe for the immature kiddies it is, but the server is better without them, anyway. I keep hearing all these stories about the raid scene on servers like Solusek Ro or Xegony and I just think to myself wow, I wasn't aware 8 year olds were allowed online back then. I can log onto my server right now, and the guilds who set up the rotation system back in '99 are STILL PLAYING with most of the same members. Tell me again how the game loses purpose?

Both the hardcore cutthroat and the cooperative play styles existed on live, but the former was far more prevalent. This server's purpose is determined solely by The Vision™ as laid out by its owners. There is no right, wrong, or better way to play on or govern the server if it does not further that purpose.

Certainly, we may suggest better ways to accomplish certain goals and attract or retain a certain type of player, but we cannot speak in terms of "should" or "ought" if it does not further the developer's vision. It just so happens that the owners of this server have decided to cater more strongly to the hardcore while also assuring cooperative players that they will not be disregarded, despite being less favored.

[Magnar]

Both the hardcore cutthroat and the cooperative play styles existed on live, but the former was far more prevalent. This server's purpose is determined solely by The Vision™ as laid out by its owners. There is no right, wrong, or better way to play on or govern the server if it does not further that purpose.

Certainly, we may suggest better ways to accomplish certain goals and attract or retain a certain type of player, but we cannot speak in terms of "should" or "ought" if it does not further the developer's vision. It just so happens that the owners of this server have decided to cater more strongly to the hardcore while also assuring cooperative players that they will not be disregarded, despite being less favored.

But there's nothing hardcore about having half your raid camped out ready to engage a mob in its spawn zone. Zerg rushing things isn't hardcore. Cooperative players are being totally disregarded. What guild on the server can even attempt to compete with the IB/TMO pixel jerk in Velious? None.

The only reason the former was more prevalent is because immature asshats are more prevalent than people willing to throw a hand to someone for the sake of helping them out and expecting nothing in return. It actually takes effort to not be a piece of shit, it's real easy to just walk all over people, only caring about yourself. That's what the raid scene on P99 is.

Whether or not the developers have a 'vision' of what they want raiding to be is irrelevant. The current rules are in place because guilds couldn't cooperate on their own. If TMO, IB, Taken, and whoever else all got together and said 'Look, lets all just grow the fuck up and sort this out', what are the GMs gonna do? Ban everyone for not constantly bickering like children? Of course not. Rogean, Nilbog, Sirken, and the rest of the staff probably sit in the GM chat saying to each other 'I really wish these idiots would just sort this shit out for themselves so we can stop having to waste time on it'.

I guarantee you Velious would have launched by now if they didn't need to constantly keep diverting their attention to raid issues. Kunark would have been launched sooner, too. They aren't going to punish people for creating a rotation or some other cooperative system on their own, they ARE going to punish people for constantly fucking each other other and breaking game rules and causing them more unnecessary stress.

[Juryiel]

Both the hardcore cutthroat and the cooperative play styles existed on live, but the former was far more prevalent. This server's purpose is determined solely by The Vision™ as laid out by its owners. There is no right, wrong, or better way to play on or govern the server if it does not further that purpose.

Certainly, we may suggest better ways to accomplish certain goals and attract or retain a certain type of player, but we cannot speak in terms of "should" or "ought" if it does not further the developer's vision. It just so happens that the owners of this server have decided to cater more strongly to the hardcore while also assuring cooperative players that they will not be disregarded, despite being less favored.

This mostly makes sense but you can't just put this on the server staff. E.g. if the staff made a purely FFA environment, would people then agree to rules that avoid things like batphones / tracking / socking? I bet most would, but the few that don't would make it not work out since you need everyone to cooperate. Honestly the way I see it is an inability for the two groups to come to a mutual understanding, and then the server staff stepping in to enforce their own preferences, rather than the staff being the primary reason we have what we have.

In servers like mine on live we still had more hardcore and less hardcore raid guilds. The hardcore guilds got a ton more stuff even with rotations, because it took a while for the casuals to be able to kill those same things (often times several expansions later than the hardcores). But still, for the mobs the more casual guilds could kill, they were given an equal share because on my server the hardcore guilds did not want to deal with the same things we deal with on p99 any less than the less hardcore guilds did. So a mutual and simple understanding was formed.

It's a shame we can't do that here and had to have staff impose their on vision on us.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Oh, I'm not putting any of the negative actions of players on the staff's shoulders. I'm simply stating that when we speak in terms of what "should" be done that it must conform to the stated purpose of the server. We can point out what "can" be done or what might help certain player groups, but we cannot speak in terms of what "should" be done.

Certainly there are issues. Everquest raiding is largely a textbook example of the tragedy of the commons.

Whether or not the developers have a 'vision' of what they want raiding to be is irrelevant.

Not so. The staff very much decided that what was happening was not in accordance with their vision and the raid discussions came about as a direct result of that. I am just pointing out that we have to be realistic with our expectations. Before the environment can change, a deeper systemic change must first occur within the developer's minds. What the developers want is entirely relevant. In fact, it's the whole point.

[Juryiel]

I've also seen the C/C/R argument by various people. I'm again curious about the thought process that goes into that. Antagonizing competing guilds aside, do people as individuals actually believe that this distribution is appropriate given that only 2 guilds are in class C and the rest of the server in R? I mean, it does make sense in some ways to have class C get a bigger piece of the pie if we want to promote it, but with the current number of guilds in R, the rotation is what, 4 months or something silly like that?

Do the people in class C really see that as an appropriate amount of time to wait for those who don't want to play the tracking / socking / batphone game? A C/C/R argument would make more sense if the ratio of C to R guilds was much larger, but I find it strange that this is how disconnected class C feels from class R to be pushing for this, especially if I assume that many current class C were in class R previously and probably have friends in class R. I don't know about everyone else I guess but I love it when guilds my friends are in succeed, or when new guilds succeed, etc on their own terms. Giving them the opportunity to do so as much as possible without hurting my own guild would be something I would think seriously about on a regular basis.

[khanable]

I've also seen the C/C/R argument by various people. I'm again curious about the thought process that goes into that. Antagonizing competing guilds aside, do people as individuals actually believe that this distribution is appropriate given that only 2 guilds are in class C and the rest of the server in R? I mean, it does make sense in some ways to have class C get a bigger piece of the pie if we want to promote it, but with the current number of guilds in R, the rotation is what, 4 months or something silly like that?

I'm not C and I think it's fair.

Keep in mind winter is coming, and when it snows, the c/r/ffa system goes.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I've also seen the C/C/R argument by various people. I'm again curious about the thought process that goes into that. Antagonizing competing guilds aside, do people as individuals actually believe that this distribution is appropriate given that only 2 guilds are in class C and the rest of the server in R? I mean, it does make sense in some ways to have class C get a bigger piece of the pie if we want to promote it, but with the current number of guilds in R, the rotation is what, 4 months or something silly like that?

Do the people in class C really see that as an appropriate amount of time to wait for those who don't want to play the tracking / socking / batphone game? A C/C/R argument would make more sense if the ratio of C to R guilds was much larger, but I find it strange that this is how disconnected class C feels from class R to be pushing for this, especially if I assume that many current class C were in class R previously and probably have friends in class R. I don't know about everyone else I guess but I love it when guilds my friends are in succeed, or when new guilds succeed, etc on their own terms. Giving them the opportunity to do so as much as possible without hurting my own guild would be something I would think seriously about on a regular basis.

It largely comes down to what is favored by the staff, and what fits more cleanly within their vision. On live, the majority of servers had a small amount of players consuming all of the high end content. Thus, the most dedicated (or neck-bearded depending on your point of view) receive a proportionally higher share that is commensurate with their input.

The rotational bloat is something that many people have pointed out. Public rotations are a form of subsidy which inevitably encourages expansion. The issue here is that we've had a revolution for Class R, but they are only now having to deal with the consequences of the proletariat having free admission to boss mobs. From the player's standpoint it always comes back to "how far am I willing to go to get loot?" The more cooperatively minded players have a much lower threshold, and are more willing to bargain early in the discussion. However, rarely will the player base be so altruistic so as to completely hobble themselves by supporting a bloated system that leaves little to nothing for themselves. If Class R continues to grow, it will be quite interesting to watch.

[Juryiel]

I'm not C and I think it's fair.

Keep in mind winter is coming, and when it snows, the c/r/ffa system goes.

I'm just hypothetically discussing to get a sense of why the classes are so hell bent on antagonizing each other. I don't actually care about the particular system in place. It's easy to quit at any point the game stops being fun, though so far that hasn't happened yet.

[Frieza_Prexus]

why the classes are so hell bent on antagonizing each other.

There's a a few people on both sides in positions of power with serious chips on their shoulders, and they simply can't let go of slights (real or imagined). An eye for an eye makes the whole server blind, and we've been pretty much in the middle of a face-stabbing melee since about day 2 of the server opening.

[khanable]

Yea I was going to be polite and say difference of ideals, but this basically sums it up:

There's a a few people on both sides in positions of power with serious chips on their shoulders, and they simply can't let go of slights (real or imagined). An eye for an eye makes the whole server blind, and we've been pretty much in the middle of a face-stabbing melee since about day 2 of the server opening.

[Magnar]

There's a a few people on both sides in positions of power with serious chips on their shoulders, and they simply can't let go of slights (real or imagined). An eye for an eye makes the whole server blind, and we've been pretty much in the middle of a face-stabbing melee since about day 2 of the server opening.

Then those people need to grow the hell up.

[Juryiel]

It largely comes down to what is favored by the staff, and what fits more cleanly within their vision. On live, the majority of servers had a small amount of players consuming all of the high end content. Thus, the most dedicated (or neck-bearded depending on your point of view) receive a proportionally higher share that is commensurate with their input.

The rotational bloat is something that many people have pointed out. Public rotations are a form of subsidy which inevitably encourages expansion. The issue here is that we've had a revolution for Class R, but they are only now having to deal with the consequences of the proletariat having free admission to boss mobs. From the player's standpoint it always comes back to "how far am I willing to go to get loot?" The more cooperatively minded players have a much lower threshold, and are more willing to bargain early in the discussion. However, rarely will the player base be so altruistic so as to completely hobble themselves by supporting a bloated system that leaves little to nothing for themselves. If Class R continues to grow, it will be quite interesting to watch.

I guess that's what's strange to me. Why don't we set the ratio to something like, a class C guild gets 3x the mobs of a class R guild? With C/C/R, a single R guild will get (1/10th, assuming 10 R guilds) of (1/3) of mobs, whereas a C guild will get (1/2) of (2/3) of the mobs. So people calling for C/C/R seems very odd to me unless they really think that the effort put in by C is ~10x for R. Frankly I would feel uncomfortable getting 10x of something if I wasn't sure i was putting in 10x the effort, especially when I would be taking that away from other friends who are also putting in significant, if not quite as much, effort toward that same thing.

[Kayso]

I've also seen the C/C/R argument by various people...

That's an argument for the current system.

BDA and Taken are class C guilds -- they just choose not to play that way.

Excluding earthquakes, how many times has a class R guild (that isn't BDA or Taken) gotten a non-Maestro FFA mob?

[Argh]

C/C/R is basically what exists now. The C/R/FFA cycle was set up with the understanding that most FFA mobs would be going to class C. FFA was also meant to allow pugs to have access to raid mobs, which is incredibly unlikely given the FFA scene as it exists now, but it was a sticking point.

Most issues boil down to differing opinions as to why R and C exist. People either view them as:

supporting different play styles; or
segregation based on skill(immersion) i.e. a farm system.

[Heebo]

That's an argument for the current system.

BDA and Taken are class C guilds -- they just choose not to play that way.

Excluding earthquakes, how many times has a class R guild (that isn't BDA or Taken) gotten a non-Maestro FFA mob?

How many times have they tried?

[arsenalpow]

Yea I was going to be polite and say difference of ideals, but this basically sums it up:

I WANT p99 blue to be a healthy inviting place for people but the raid scene is completely dysfunctional.

Let's just talk percentages for a second, Class C is currently getting at minimum about 75% of the potential raid content on the server in a given month. They are allotted 1/3 of the normal mobs and they're winning about 90% of the FFA contents and they're getting every single VP mob. That's the way the system was constructed by staff, so be it.

Class C could keep between 65-70% of the mobs with the full FFA repop system which would completely eliminate poop socking IMMEDIATELY

I know I'm banging the same drum, but the perfect system is C/R with full repops being FFA. Class C can keep VP and the normal bag limit stuff changes. Two guilds still get 65-70% of the content and the two playstyles never have to interact. It literally solves everything.

I know the normal response is "but the staff said they aren't changing anything blah blah blah" but I think if the server actually came together FOR ONCE and we actually agreed on a solution I think it could be implemented, because it would be fucking unprecedented.

You could always counter that it can just be C/C/R and the casual players of the server could yet again take another hit but I think it's time that the hardcore side helps the server instead of hurting it.

[Juryiel]

What some of you retards don't seem to understand is that none of that shit really matters.

Rotation sucks for a number of reasons, there will always be issues between guilds and someone will always want to break rotation. Rotation also does not allow you more mobs. Rotation extends mobs out even further because now you have to add all guilds that want in the rotation and since there is no competition in rotation,just about anyone can get in, thus prolonging you from getting any mobs. Then comes into play where people are dual-guilding or even triple guilding for the benefit of more items and mobs.

The bottom line is the people who want more items and want to sink their lives into the game will always get those items, the people who don't , wont.

All FFA will suck for anyone not class C because Class C will literally clean up almost every mob without the bag limit in place. If it is a bag limit, then you are basically asking for a game without any competition minus the competition between guilds that haven't killed any mobs and that isn't real competition is it?

It goes like this, this game is a time-sink game, if youve invested many man hours into the game, you deserve more because it is the same way in life. More hours you work, the more pay you get , etc. The thing that makes Everquest special is that you have to work and spend time to gear up and work your way to the top. The people who spent more time will almost always have better stuff. The more time you spend, the better stuff youll get. You have every opportunity to do the same over a period of time.

No one is disagreeing with that general claim in spite of the needlessly aggressive presentation. If your claim is that class C works 10x as hard as class R then ok, you deserve C/C/R. If your claim is that C works 5x as hard as class R, then C/R is more appropriate. Etc.

[Boti]

FORCEFUL ENTRY

CLASS R HERO

[HeallunRumblebelly]

FORCEFUL ENTRY

CLASS R HERO

shinko stahp.