Real Question here

[Shinko]

How come no class R guilds have moved to class C yet?

when they are willing to sit @ FFA mobs and coh duck 2 mages?

[jpetrick]

don't worry, catherin exposed everyone using autofire. hes a server hero.

[Daldaen]

How come no class R guilds have moved to class C yet?

when they are willing to sit @ FFA mobs and coh duck 2 mages?

Because they have <5% of their guild willing to sit at FFA mobs tracking and <1% of their guild willing to CotH duck.

The Class R guilds do it for 1-2 mobs too, not the 3 Class C, 4 FFA and 6 VP.

Plus the rules for getting out of Class C aren't explained. People are hesitant to even test the waters. If there were something that dropped you to Class R if you don't make a Class C or VP kill for 2 weeks... maybe it would be worth testing for some guilds.

But I am guessing you didn't care about a real answer.

[Squire]

play red then this is no longer a problem.

[sulpher01]

Because they have <5% of their guild willing to sit at FFA mobs tracking and <1% of their guild willing to CotH duck.

The Class R guilds do it for 1-2 mobs too, not the 3 Class C, 4 FFA and 6 VP.

Plus the rules for getting out of Class C aren't explained. People are hesitant to even test the waters. If there were something that dropped you to Class R if you don't make a Class C or VP kill for 2 weeks... maybe it would be worth testing for some guilds.

But I am guessing you didn't care about a real answer.

Daldaen so smart, hes my hero.

[arsenalpow]

when are you joining IB Shinko?

[Argh]

REAL TALK.

[Shinko]

when they offer me a SOW sword, i would take that as payment of joining

[arsenalpow]

when they offer me a SOW sword, i would take that as payment of joining

and there in a nutshell is the class c mentality everyone

[Pheer]

ill click mine on you everytime i see you shinko, is that good enough?

[radditsu]

Ill click shinko all night long.

[Raev]

Because they have <5% of their guild willing to sit at FFA mobs tracking and <1% of their guild willing to CotH duck.

The reality is the competition rules are still not fun. Sirken made a pretty good go of it, but in the end "competing" over most outdoor Kunark mobs always going to be either a) random or b) based on who is doing dumb shit at the keyboard for hours. Ironically, the one zone that is somewhat skill based is completely off limits to Class R!

I hope Velious will fix this a bit: we'll have three times as many targets and guilds won't be able to faceroll their keyboards and win (well, on some of them at least). However, I predict an explosion of neckbeardery the like of which the world has never seen when Velious is finally released, so in the short term it might not be an improvement.

My personal solution: eliminate normal spawns, script repops to happen automatically ~4 times per week (but reduce the loot tables by 1/2, so the same number of pixels we get now more or less), add code to move everyone's toons to the nearest city so no one can camp out for this stuff, and ditch the R/C/FFA system. It's not exactly classic, but then neither is what we have here.

[arsenalpow]

the solution is simple, either get rid of the FFA cycle all together and make it so that on full repops it's always FFA, or make it so the FFA cycle mobs all spawn simultaneously for the week which eliminates the 4-5 guilds waiting at the last hour of the mob together coth ducking like a bunch of fucking mongos

[iruinedyourday]

the solution is simple, either get rid of the FFA cycle all together and make it so that on full repops it's always FFA

yes plz

[Raev]

the solution is simple, either get rid of the FFA cycle all together and make it so that on full repops it's always FFA, or make it so the FFA cycle mobs all spawn simultaneously for the week which eliminates the 4-5 guilds waiting at the last hour of the mob together coth ducking like a bunch of fucking mongos

Hmm, I wonder if we could make this happen. Repops are about 1/3 of mobs, so the rough R/C/FFA distribution would be unchanged. Maybe we could add a special VP-IS-FFA-ON-REPOPS too; it would be funny to watch a ton of R guilds training the hell out of the zone in and getting raid suspended.

[Daldaen]

Reduce variance hugely.

1. Not classic.
2. Class R and Class C disparity is mainly due to the amount of time willing to stare at a spawn. You reduce the window (16hrs currently) that you have to stare at a spawn, you will see more competition. Leave *some* to add a small element of randomness.

Drop variance to +/- 30-60minutes. So that the window is 1-2 hours.

Also this will help because on a server respawn, a good 12+ targets dying within 1-2 hours of server pop, it will cause many overlapping windows with many mobs spawning simultaneously. Decreasing the amount people can monopolize and forcing them to prioritize the targets they focus on.

[iruinedyourday]

Im sure it will be fine once vellious comes out - but for now the FFA clas R I just dont understand. I dont know why you want to do that if you dont want to do C. But each plays to their own liking.

Vellious will cure what ails ya, Im sure.

Also not being able to kill something on a repop - becuse its a C mob rotation or something, that makes zero sense to me.

Sim Repops should be all FFA and sorted out after. Ive seen mobs just sit idle waiting for C to move to them while they could have been taken by R

[Tasslehofp99]

Because they have <5% of their guild willing to sit at FFA mobs tracking and <1% of their guild willing to CotH duck.




I don't think this is true.



This is Taken in KC right now socking for VS:
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] Players on EverQuest:
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] ---------------------------
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Morby <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Navis <Taken> LFG
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Halliel <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Oblexsis <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Shaston <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Gorruk <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Roon <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Brillayan <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Sweeni <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Trookle <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Ephrook <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Oscuns <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Psyphon <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Shoneys <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Ambit <Taken> LFG
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Baronzz <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [60 High Priest] Emile (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Eroqa <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Indefinite <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Nutup <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [56 Outrider] Dartaniun (Wolf) <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Jonasty <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Endoril <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Jortem <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Mntdew <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Velmun <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [60 Sorcerer] Poysun (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Dolphy <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Kzynjynyx <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Kentrol <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Thrunk <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Cromcruach <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Murderdeathkill <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Cleratani <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [60 High Priest] Nikkanu (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Rulle <Taken>
[Sat Oct 04 19:15:36 2014] There are 36 players in Karnor's Castle.

[Cecily]

.05x = 36
x= 36/.05
x=720

[Daldaen]

Guess how many of those people are actually AFK and how many are actually tracking/awake? I'll give you a hint, only the mage, warrior and a cleric maybe a chanter are really awake... just like the other guilds there I am guessing (I am not there, but I am pretty confident)

Also, how many other Class C, FFA, VP mobs are in window? Are there any Taken or other Class R guilds at those for that matter? Now how many Class C trackers are there waiting and staring at the spawn points/track windows waiting for a spawn?

Sitting AFK online is a byproduct of some people missing out on the last FFA VS Taken killed. I posted in our recruitment thread the timestamps, engage within 3 seconds of spawn, it was dead within 2 minutes of spawn. (why CotHing is dumb and should be removed, but the raid discussion thread on the subject garnered a total of 2 replies)

Some people saw that and decided they will AFK and be able to make it in when they get a batphone by rushing to computer and running in. Whereas being around the house, having to log on your account, log in your character, run in, etc. They would miss the fight.

I guarantee the ratio of players actively tracking/sitting at spawn points from Class C:Class R is quite large. Class R guilds do at most 1 target at a time, generally late in window ones too. Class C guilds track them all simultaneously which requires far greater manpower and depth of poopsocks. Manpower that no Class R guild currently has.

[Shinko]

the idea was to make class R guilds come to class C

so far ZERO guilds have made the change

[Tankdan]

I just don't get how so many guilds are content with not being in the end-game zone after 4 freakin years. Especially considering the amount of hours they put into this game.

[arsenalpow]

the idea was to make class R guilds come to class C

so far ZERO guilds have made the change

that was never the idea, the tiers represent fundamentally different playstyles, maybe you should worry about getting rolled by IB before you calling out class R, priorities man

[Raev]

I just don't get how so many guilds are content with not being in the end-game zone after 4 freakin years. Especially considering the amount of hours they put into this game.

It's not about the amount of time; I play a fuckton. Because I enjoy the game of EverQuest: chillin with some pals, chatting and getting pixels. Tracking, jav spamming, and poopsocking are not EverQuest: aside from not being classic, they are all boring as fuck.

[Ravager]

I just don't get how so many guilds are content with not being in the end-game zone after 4 freakin years. Especially considering the amount of hours they put into this game.

I just don't get the number of people that make up the cores of class C guilds who only log on to raid the same dragons over and over again. Especially considering the number of years they've been doing the same shit.

There's more to the game than VP.

Besides, the path of least resistance to that zone for people who want to see it is to just join one of the two guilds who have been established there from its opening. Am I right FE?

[iruinedyourday]

Especially considering the number of years they've been doing the same shit.

Hey man some people love killing the same 70 lvl mobs over and over, some people like killing the same lvl 11 mobs over and over.. either way we're all killing something over and over. To each their own, man.

[zanderklocke]

It's not about the amount of time; I play a fuckton. Because I enjoy the game of EverQuest: chillin with some pals, chatting and getting pixels. Tracking, jav spamming, and poopsocking are not EverQuest: aside from not being classic, they are all boring as fuck.

Completely off topic, but why new forum username?

[Ravager]

Hey man some people love killing the same 70 lvl mobs over and over, some people like killing the same lvl 11 mobs over and over.. either way we're all killing something over and over. To each their own, man.

I know, I meant it to be an ironic twist on what the guy I was quoting said.

[iruinedyourday]

I know, I meant it to be an ironic twist on what the guy I was quoting said.

haha my bad. Im gona kill some skeletons tonight.. fuckn like 9,000th time :)

[justin2090]

It's not about the amount of time; I play a fuckton. Because I enjoy the game of EverQuest: chillin with some pals, chatting and getting pixels. Tracking, jav spamming, and poopsocking are not EverQuest: aside from not being classic, they are all boring as fuck.

[Thulack]

I just don't get how so many guilds are content with not being in the end-game zone after 4 freakin years. Especially considering the amount of hours they put into this game.

Lets see:

Can kill most/All things in game with guild/friends that dont require getting VP gear...VP gear is for people that want to solo/duo crap thats hard. You can group anything in gear outside of VP.

[Tasslehofp99]

50 Taken in KC poopsocking VS now

VSwatch2014 is totally a thing

[Daldaen]

[Sat Oct 04 23:58:05 2014] You have entered Karnor's Castle.
[Sun Oct 05 00:01:58 2014] Cleratani tells the guild, 'POP POP POP VS VS VS POP POP POP '
[Sun Oct 05 00:03:51 2014] Roon tells the guild, 'Tolan's Darkwood Greaves, Singing Steel Greaves, Gnarled Staff, Pulsing Green Stone, Pulsing Green Stone'

Died within 2 minutes of spawning. Making batphoning and getting people to log in not really viable. Had I not just logged on my cleric 3 minutes prior I probably wouldn't have been there for the kill :/.

I think that shows how dumb Kunark raids are. 32k HP bosses are sadpandas.

[Servellious]

wipe all the raid rules clean, no one should have to know 100 different rules for every mob and engage let people just play the game, the strong will survive and the weak will either become strong or stay the same.

[myriverse]

I just don't get how so many guilds are content with not being in the end-game zone after 4 freakin years. Especially considering the amount of hours they put into this game.
End-game is the worst part. I don't get what people find enjoyable about it.

[Visual]

no one should have to know 100 different rules

What they don't realize is that they have changed the entire dynamic of the game with these stupid rules. I used to park my druid at Trak ledge so he could snap off a couple heals and port the fuck out.

After they made the zone-in rule, I found myself not even getting coth'd in time for the engage. My main was no longer a viable option for trak raids.

Not sure what has changed since but sounds like it may have gotten even worse.

[Rooj]

Not sure what has changed since but sounds like it may have gotten even worse.

Yet the server population has increased and I'm sure there are a lot less raid related /petitions...

[Pint]

Sorry tmbros but none of us want to come get in ibs way so they can keep waxing that ass every weekend, I'm sure you can convince guild #5 or w/e you're at now to merge and keep you in the fight though if you just keep looking.

[Rupertox]

Reduce variance hugely.

1. Not classic.
2. Class R and Class C disparity is mainly due to the amount of time willing to stare at a spawn. You reduce the window (16hrs currently) that you have to stare at a spawn, you will see more competition. Leave *some* to add a small element of randomness.

Drop variance to +/- 30-60minutes. So that the window is 1-2 hours.

Also this will help because on a server respawn, a good 12+ targets dying within 1-2 hours of server pop, it will cause many overlapping windows with many mobs spawning simultaneously. Decreasing the amount people can monopolize and forcing them to prioritize the targets they focus on.



Sure, and do that 30-60 minutes on a USA prine time so euros can watch tv besides play eq

[sanforce]

wipe all the raid rules clean, no one should have to know 100 different rules for every mob and engage let people just play the game, the strong will survive and the weak will either become strong or stay the same.

I agree, the sheer number of rules are bogging the server down. I'm cool with keeping Class R/C/FFA targets, but something needs to change regarding the mechanics of raiding.

We should either...
1) Go back to 96 hour windows with the possibility of window extensions. This pretty much makes it impossible to sit an entire FTE/Raid force around, ready to engage the mob the instant it pops (unless the mob is really really late in the extended window).

or

2) Go to extremely short windows so everyone knows when to have a massive raid force ready and 100 FTErs ready for the clown race to the mob.

Personally, I'd like to see Option #1 again. It generally limits the shenanigans to 1 tracker per mob, and the raid windows get nice and spread out throughout the week.

As it stands, these 16 hour windows force huge groups of people to sit around hoping to be the quickest off the line, from Friday afternoon through Sunday night. It's not fun, and it's already pushing people away from the P99 raid game.

I like the class setup. It gives everyone a chance to see raid targets, and a guild might one day make the leap from R to C (maybe... anyone?) But other mechanics severely need tweaking, and the more rules we add - the worse it gets.

[Daldaen]

96-hour windows are pant-on-head retarded.

[sanforce]

96-hour windows are pant-on-head retarded.

96 hour windows aren't great, but it prevented these crazy FTE-sock-fests that we are getting with 16 hour windows.

Shorter windows would also prevent the huge amount of time waste that we are seeing under the current rules, but it will increase the issues with the FTE races.

I'd really like to see either, 16 hour windows turn into weekend long stents trying to get mobs. Longer windows would slow the game back down, and shorter windows would create specific times to focus on the game - either is better than the current setup.

[Daldaen]

96 hour windows aren't great, but it prevented these crazy FTE-sock-fests that we are getting with 16 hour windows.

Shorter windows would also prevent the huge amount of time waste that we are seeing under the current rules, but it will increase the issues with the FTE races.

I'd really like to see either, 16 hour windows turn into weekend long stents trying to get mobs. Longer windows would slow the game back down, and shorter windows would create specific times to focus on the game - either is better than the current setup.

I'd prefer the opposite.

We get 30-60min windows, windows almost all overlap, many spawns overlap.

It will force rushing, prioritizing targets, and mobilizing after kills.

Alternatively, remove respawns all together and just do sim-repops. Remove the bag limit if you do this.

Really though, Velious will be the fix for a lot of this crap. When there are many more targets, much more valuable targets, and targets that have lots of HP leading to longer kill times.

When guilds are hung up on Klandicar for 10 minutes, or NToV for multiple hours... it will allow less hardcore guilds to kill Gorenaire/Talendor/Sev. Atleast that is the hope.

[Rooj]

*facepalm* This thread must make the staff furious. They keep trying to satisfy people, even to the current point where the most people possible are satisfied, and then they have to read the shit in this thread.

Just accept the damn raid scene until Velious. I seriously doubt the staff is even considering changing anything until then.

[sanforce]

*facepalm* This thread must make the staff furious. They keep trying to satisfy people, even to the current point where the most people possible are satisfied, and then they have to read the shit in this thread.

Just accept the damn raid scene until Velious. I seriously doubt the staff is even considering changing anything until then.

I bet it doesn't make the staff furious - there are always improvements to be made and the community is allowed to express opinions about the direction of the server. And I'm not arguing that improvements haven't been made - the class system definitely opens the game up for a lot of people and preventing people from logging out at target prevents the whole instant engage scenario. But forcing mobs to spawn anytime between Friday-Sunday is, in many ways, a downgrade from the previous system. People who consistently care about helping their guild are forced to concentrate on EQ all weekend long - a sure fire scenario for burnout. The staff want more people to enjoy the game, I think it's counter productive to frame the raid scene in a way that causes maximum burnout.

So, the solution is to either reduce variance and have concentrated raid times over the weekends, or spread it all out again to reduce socking - it worked back then, no reason it wouldn't now.

[Raev]

As it stands, these 16 hour windows force huge groups of people to sit around hoping to be the quickest off the line, from Friday afternoon through Sunday night. It's not fun, and it's already pushing people away from the P99 raid game.

I hear you, man. We need more dedicated raiders on this server.

This thread must make the staff furious. They keep trying to satisfy people, even to the current point where the most people possible are satisfied

The R system has been a huge success. The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine? Those not so much.

Chest has the right idea IMO: make the repops pure FFA (including VP), then split all of the normal spawns between C and R. Class C can engage in whatever retardation they wish, the R guilds can continue to get our vending machine handouts, and success on repops will determine who is good and who is bad.

[sanforce]

The R system has been a huge success. The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine? Those not so much.

Chest has the right idea IMO: make the repops pure FFA (including VP), then split all of the normal spawns between C and R. Class C can engage in whatever retardation they wish, the R guilds can continue to get our vending machine handouts, and success on repops will determine who is good and who is bad.

The only real issue with the class system is the lack of mobility, which was originally intended. Guilds are proving that they are much more competitive now, with their Class R raid experience, yet there is still zero guild mobility in the last 8 months. Look at Taken, they easily handled last night's VS, and are currently COTH ducking for Gorenair! That's a guild that has proven they are both capable of competing with Class C and are ready to stoop to the depths of "competition" to get their pixels, yet they are more than content to stick with Class R.

The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine have completely backfired. The server staff used to care about reducing retarded sock-fests, because it is a huge waste of everyone's time. But now sock-fests seem to be encouraged? I don't get it.

[Daldaen]

Sock-fests are encouraged only because Class C wanted them.

When they came to the table, people suggested a complete rotation to prevent the need to track entire windows but instead check hourly or bi-hourly whether the mob had spawned. Naturally IB and TMO shot down a rotation system, which led us to where we are currently with the Class system.

If there were no Class C/R, and everything were rotated and you were allowed to do your ridiculous competition in VP, with FFA respawns, there would be no sock-fests unless you want them in VP.

[Raev]

The modifications to try to make raid "competition" less asinine have completely backfired. The server staff used to care about reducing retarded sock-fests, because it is a huge waste of everyone's time. But now sock-fests seem to be encouraged? I don't get it.

Tracking for 96 hours is also a huge waste of everyone's time. I'm sure Sirken and Derubael have Rool's attitude: "We reduced the variance and so you asshats started socking. If you want to stop wasting time, talk to each other and stop doing it". Phiren has a post on the raid discussion forums which was completely ignored by everyone who is doing the CoH ducking.

It's just not an easy problem to fix: the Kunark targets are simply too easy. I think the only legitimate competition is repops, an idea which was actually shot down during the negotiations last year because a) TMO/FE knew they wouldn't get nearly as many mobs if they weren't able to neckbeard out and b) TMO/FE claimed they wouldn't have anything better to do with their lives if they couldn't poopsock. In hind sight, all those posts by Unbrella about how he loved the competition with TMO look more than a little silly. Or would, if they weren't deleted. CONSPIRACY NP.

Quite frankly, I would even be willing to accept the Doraf system (8 repops a month, no normal spawns, everything FFA) as long as all L50+ characters got teleported to a city zone so the advantage of camping 10 different alt armies at every target was minimized. Not that my opinion really matters.

[sanforce]

Sock-fests are encouraged only because Class C wanted them.

When they came to the table, people suggested a complete rotation to prevent the need to track entire windows but instead check hourly or bi-hourly whether the mob had spawned. Naturally IB and TMO shot down a rotation system, which led us to where we are currently with the Class system.

If there were no Class C/R, and everything were rotated and you were allowed to do your ridiculous competition in VP, with FFA respawns, there would be no sock-fests unless you want them in VP.

Sock-fests are necessities to Class C (with short windows), it's competitive, and no loot means a failing Class C guild. But trust me, I'm in Class C, and I'd say the majority of us don't "want" sock-fests. Also, don't get me started on a complete rotation, we both know that's not what EQ was intended to be - a single instanced world means competing for a finite number of spawns. The day P99 goes to a complete rotation will be my last day on the server (but maybe that's what needs to happen.)

A possible partial solution is to add variance back to VP, but not outside of VP. I also wouldn't be opposed to FFA VP repops, to get other guilds in there and maybe increase the chance that they will jump to Class C (the intended result of the class system). I still want more competition, even with IBs recent success.

edit: And yes, I also know that EQ wasn't intended to be stuck on Kunark for 4 years. But it creates some interesting problems!

[Ravager]

If only there existed a server with no rules and direct competition was the whole point. You people complaining about the rules could go there and be happy, and the people who want rules and rotations could stay here and be happy.

[khanable]

Because they have <5% of their guild willing to sit at FFA mobs tracking and <1% of their guild willing to CotH duck.

You know I love you bud, but I think this is a poor excuse.

To say that all of TMO and IB are willing to track and coth duck is a flat out lie. I'm sure they, just like you guys, have a small subset of people who do 95% of the work. That's how guilds almost always end up working.

With that said - the FFA cycle has been a complete failure and defeats the entire purpose of a "playstyle" based class system. You can't claim to be a casual guild while you're actively out-hardcoring the hardcore guilds by engaging in extreme tactics that even the hardcore crowd doesn't want to do.

IMO - eliminate FFA. R/C, repops full FFA. Make it a system that is actually based on playstyle, and let the full repops be a test of mobilization and skill.

[arsenalpow]

the other fix like i've said before is to make all FFA mobs in the cycle spawn simultaneously during the week. So this week VS, Gore, and some Vox were FFA? If one FFA mob spawns it triggers all the others to spawn. Then you won't have the coth ducking bottleneck bullshit unless everyone REALLY wanted that VS because guilds would go chase other shit

[Daldaen]

IMO - eliminate FFA. R/C, repops full FFA. Make it a system that is actually based on playstyle, and let the full repops be a test of mobilization and skill.

Agreed with this.

And I don't think I ever said 100% or even 50% of Class C guild members are willing to track. Its just their subset of players willing to track is far larger than any Class R guild's. And their ability to field a large force at all hours -- specifically mid-work day hours. Late-night weekends don't tend to be an issue for most Class R guilds.

[iruinedyourday]

the FFA cycle has been a complete failure and defeats the entire purpose of a "playstyle" based class system. You can't claim to be a casual guild while you're actively out-hardcoring the hardcore guilds by engaging in extreme tactics that even the hardcore crowd doesn't want to do.

IMO - eliminate FFA. R/C, repops full FFA. Make it a system that is actually based on playstyle, and let the full repops be a test of mobilization and skill.

yes

[Cecily]

I think FFA has been an enormous success. Highly motivated Class R guilds take mobs from Class C guilds time to time, not often but it does happen. Which is really how it should be. Class C gave up mobs to put this system in place, not the other way around.

[Ravager]

I think FFA has been an enormous success. Highly motivated Class R guilds take mobs from Class C guilds time to time, not often but it does happen. Which is really how it should be. Class C gave up mobs to put this system in place, not the other way around.

Class C gave up nothing. Everybody gained mobs. Before this system the server was lucky to see one repop every four months.

[Pheer]

i dont have anything constructive to add to this thread, just thought id get one more reply in before it gets tossed into the pit of RNF

[Moodie]

I think FFA has been an enormous success. Highly motivated Class R guilds take mobs from Class C guilds time to time, not often but it does happen. Which is really how it should be. Class C gave up mobs to put this system in place, not the other way around.

Class C didn't put sh*t in place. Rogean put this system in place after TMO/IB/FE couldn't agree to a reasonable raid solution for weeks during the raid suspensions. (Which was triggered by TMO players exploiting on 86? accounts)

[arsenalpow]

I think FFA has been an enormous success. Highly motivated Class R guilds take mobs from Class C guilds time to time, not often but it does happen. Which is really how it should be. Class C gave up mobs to put this system in place, not the other way around.

you can't have it both ways! you can't say "highly motivated class R guilds" and then simultaneously QQ about coth ducking. The class system differentiates playstyle. Sure, Taken is dipping their toe into FFA by coth ducking but that doesn't mean they want to wade fully into class C where TMO and IB regularly shit all over each other and do back alley tradeoffs for all their raiding indiscretions

[iruinedyourday]

I think FFA has been an enormous success. Highly motivated Class R guilds take mobs from Class C guilds time to time, not often but it does happen. Which is really how it should be. Class C gave up mobs to put this system in place, not the other way around.

yeah but 99% of class R players arnt having any fun doing it :P

To me FFA is - tell my IRL friends that I'm busy and cant see them, so i can fail at doing something. its just not cool.

now this, is cool:

http://i.imgur.com/diYvLQK.jpg

[Cecily]

You think we have any fun?

[Clark]

wipe all the raid rules clean, no one should have to know 100 different rules for every mob and engage let people just play the game, the strong will survive and the weak will either become strong or stay the same.

[Pheer]

You think we have any fun?

one of us is

[Derubael]

I'd actually like to keep this out of RnF, if possible, because then any chance for constructive discourse goes out the window.

If you guys want things to change, post in raid discussion with your various ideas and suggestions. If it's clear there's enough support for the removal or modification of rules, they'll get changed. Right now there is no desire to change/review any of the rules because it's felt that everyone is happy with the current rule-set. If that's not the case, express it with forum threads.

I think we have a number of rules that are needlessly complicated and overwhelmingly complex, especially for guilds new to the raid scene. There has been more than one guild that's had a difficult time grasping how everything works when trying to enter the raid scene in recent months, and that's not good. But we've talked about it before in the past, and until you guys show us you don't like the way things are, nothing is going to even get looked at.

(As a side note, in regards to how mobility actually takes place, as of right now if you are a Class R guild that wants to move to Class C, all you have to do is kill a Class C spawn. I believe we decided that downing a VP dragon would also result in a transition to Class C. As far as the reverse goes - Class C to Class R - we don't want to discourage guilds from trying to move to Class C because they're afraid of doing poorly and getting stuck, so moving back to Class R won't be restrictively difficult. A request to the staff is likely all that would be needed. I will say that anyone who moves up to Class C should expect to stay there for at least a couple weeks to a month, regardless of performance. We'd want any guild that moves to Class C to give it their best effort before being asked to be placed back in Class-R if they are unable to kill anything.)

tl;dr Express interest in change, and it will get looked at. If you're like me and you feel we have too many rules with too many nuances and special exceptions that end up scaring off the little guilds they were designed to protect, get together with your guild's raid reps and talk to them about what you'd like to see changed. Have them post that in the raid forum to show the staff you'd like changes to the current rules. Good luck!

[arsenalpow]

Not to throw you under the bus but when I had a 1 on 1 with Sirken shortly after Genocidal Tendencies went full retard it was very clear to both of us and we agreed that the FFA cycle has been a complete failure from it's intended purpose. That was months ago. It's relatively disingenuous to say now months later "oh, we thought everyone was happy with things" when if you read these boards daily you'll see a completely different picture.

The rules aren't overly complicated. The only guild that couldn't figure it out imploded immediately because their leadership was some of the dumbest people to grace this server. The area that is most contentious is the FFA mobs that go late in window when no other potential spawns are available. That creates a bottleneck where all the stupid neckbeard shit happens. I'd expect if you removed the FFA cycle class C would QQ because they're so used to running those sets of mobs though.

[Fanguru]

Current system has its flaws but works. To improve on it we would probably need devs to code changes.

About switching from Class R to C, there is very little incentive.
Poopsocking all the time? No thanks.
Sure we would like to see VP, but we do not get enough fangs from Trak, and can hardly compete on FFA Trakanon with the resources of Class C.
Even if we somehow managed to muster enough keys for everyone, I doubt C guilds would happily step back and let us find our marks.

[arsenalpow]

If you're like me and you feel we have too many rules with too many nuances and special exceptions that end up scaring off the little guilds they were designed to protect

Also that part is just absurd. The entry point for this entire thing is Class R and that's been a model system. Only two guilds have utterly failed in class R (Dolj and GT) and it was only because they didn't want to honor the rotation system that 10 other guilds put in place and have maintained for months without issue.

MC is currently growing as has been welcomed to the rotation and as they grow they'll continue to be added to new rotation lists as they feel they're ready. Harmony was on the lists until they fell apart, Omni was welcomed and are thriving, even Supremacy and KWSN were approached but never mustered the force to kill raid targets.

Class C is the problem. They've always been the problem. Working with TMO and IB is like pulling fucking teeth. Anytime class C is involved in anything the entire situation usually turns to shit. I get it, they want pixels and they'll do anything to get them, that's their playstyle, but that mentality is only favored by 10-15% of the server and unfortunately that minority is allowed to dictate raid progression for the other 10+ guilds.

[Raev]

Also that part is just absurd.

I disagree. The staff has been making a legitimate effort to reduce the retardation involved in competing for mobs. The problem is we have a critical mass of people on this server who will do anything for pixels who keep finding creative ways to neckbeard. The staff forbids poopsocking, so the players sock at the zone in. The staff reduces the variance, so the players jav spam and autofire. The staff forbids jav spamming, so the players COH duck. It's ridiculous.

until you guys show us you don't like the way things are
Chest is exaggerating: the R part of the new raid rules has been a huge success. When the R system was set up, there were six founding guilds: BDA, Taken, Divinity, Europa, Azure Guard, and The A-Team. Now we have 3 additional ones: Omni, Indignation, and Asgard, and apparently Moonlight Crusaders will join soon too. Even with Omni, in general these are not just the original R guilds splitting up either: I bet the number of people participating in the endgame on this server has gone up 50% at least over the past 8 months. Two years ago in the summer Save and I used to have Old Sebilis to ourselves! I mean literally we would be the only ones in the zone.

Where you guys have failed is in fixing the raid rules to the point that neckbearding is a minimal advantage. And quite frankly I don't blame you; I don't think any of us saw CoH ducking in the cards when things were being hammered out last winter. And suppose we ban CoH mages (Sirken even tried!) Well then it will be all about who buys a Raid0 of 12 SSDs and moves to NYC to log in 2s before the other guy. What you guys need to do is sit down and realize you are hammering at an impossible task: there just isn't enough content. If there wasn't variance and asinine competition, it wouldn't be possible to "raid" for more than about 4-5 hours a week. And our neckbeards would be forced to get tans.

This is why Chest's hybrid proposal is so reasonable: we have an R rotation so everyone can see the content, some sort of especially asinine C rules so that the neckbeards can stay in their basements, and FFA repops for real competition, admittedly over in the blink of an eye. The obvious way of doing things here:

Class C mobs have some huge variance; let IB and TMO decide what to do there, and they alternate with
Class R mobs have 0 variance and GMs enforce the R rotation, and yes this should include VP and Velious
Repops are straight FFA, and every 50+ toon is moved to the nearest city (if you are camped out somewhere, too bad).

Other than FTE shouts and basic 'thou shalt not train thy neighbor', no rules are required.

Also, if I had to guess, I'd say what frustrates Chest the most is that the R playstyle is considered some sort of redheaded stepchild compared to the one true neckbeard way. Like why is Veeshan's Peak Class C and not FFA? I mean the R guilds are straight up forbidden from even trying it. And then we have Velious, which is going to be straight FFA. Which is fine with me, really . . . for a few months. I don't mind waiting while people go straight up nuts for a bit. But after that we should extend the R system IMO.

Oh, and one last thing. You will NEVER get a consensus from Class C and Class R on anything. Class C is not about competition, they are about maximizing their pixels. Which is fine. Just understand that they will veto anything that reduces their net pixel count by 0.1%.

[Kayso]

Just understand that they will veto anything that reduces their net pixel count by 0.1%.

[arsenalpow]

I at least have the health of the server and the enjoyment of the small guilds in mind, that's my frustration. If wanted to maximize my own pixels I'd join a class C guild or put BDA in class C. IB and TMO are so goddamn shortsighted when it comes to this. Locking down content indefinitely will eventually be the death of this server. Right now most people don't realize how the end game is currently setup and the difficult choices one must make to see content. What happens when that message is loud and clear? People will stop going on the journey if they full well know they'll likely never accomplish their goals.

The point of p99 is to experience raid content. Currently the biggest problem with experiencing this content is where class c and r overlap and the FrapsQuest shit that plays out (this also happens at every class C raid). Making new rules or changing to different rules doesn't fix the problem. The root issue has to be addressed.

[Daldaen]

Class C / Class R alternation with full FFA repops is a good resolution to these problems.

It sounds like Class C guilds don't want to CotH duck and they won't have to if they agree with this. Unless they start doing that to each other...

I do tend to agree that making VP completely blocked from Class R is dumb. However making that a Class C / Class R split wouldn't be fair. It should be more of a Class C / C / C / R or C / C / R. So that maybe once a month or every 3 weeks it's a Class R rotation. Due to low numbers of keys it may end up being a conglomerate of guilds doing the VP dragons. It would be pretty neat if that week was an "All Class R guild members who are keyed may join".

Removing or reducing variance would be cool too.

But I don't see Class C agreeing to even every 4th VP spawn is Class R, cause then they lose pixels and losing the possibility of a crown may cause aneurysms. I'm sure there were a few strokes at losing 2 FFA VSes in the past month. I can't imagine them giving up precious PDs.

[Lojik]

C / C / R

I can get behind this.

http://assets.vg247.com/current//2010/07/CCR.jpg

[Daldaen]

I can get behind this.

http://assets.vg247.com/current//2010/07/CCR.jpg

For VP? Sounds good, let's make it so.

[Thulack]

They already think they are giving too much to casuals. They won't agree to letting anymore blooming onions fall through their fingers.

[Ravager]

They already think they are giving too much to casuals. They won't agree to letting anymore blooming onions fall through their fingers.

The fact that they think they're giving anything to casuals is the whole problem with the raid scene.

[mrmop520]

Like why is Veeshan's Peak Class C and not FFA? I mean the R guilds are straight up forbidden from even trying it.

They're not prohibited; they just become class C if they kill one. There are a few guilds that could do fine as a class C guild... it's not like VP fte racing / kills are that tough to win, just takes practice. With VP as C only, it provides incentive to move to class C and compete for mobs in the same manner as the ffa / c spawns.

[kotton05]

Class C is the problem. They've always been the problem. Working with TMO and IB is like pulling fucking teeth. Anytime class C is involved in anything the entire situation usually turns to shit. I get it, they want pixels and they'll do anything to get them, that's their playstyle, but that mentality is only favored by 10-15% of the server and unfortunately that minority is allowed to dictate raid progression for the other 10+ guilds.

Actually TMO is very willing to work with others. Sorry you're so jaded you can't see that. On another note, deru says alterations can be made, is the raid forum the only place for this? It seems it's very void of discussion or one guild says "we don't agree" then just ghosts the convo...

[Raev]

With VP as C only, it provides incentive to move to class C and compete for mobs in the same manner as the ffa / c spawns.

I think one of the big things that the staff has failed to understand is that Class R/C is not about playtime; its about playstyle. I'm sure I play more than quite a few people in Class C; the difference is that I choose not to spend my time sitting there waiting on raid targets. And I do not understand why the artificial and non-classic timesinks that are involved in "competing" for mobs on this server should be encouraged.

[kotton05]

A lot of bitterness here raev... All the mobs spawn during the weekend then class c is the same as class r we group and play eq.... It's not much different.

[Daldaen]

A lot of bitterness here raev... All the mobs spawn during the weekend then class c is the same as class r we group and play eq.... It's not much different.

Difference being Raev has no one/very few in his guild who wants to stare at a spawn for 16 hours straight. Or even 2 hours. Nor does the guild want to mandate or even ask people to stare at a wall for hours.

That shouldn't be what raiding is like. And it isn't what it's like in Class R.

It's, camp a ranger in zone. Group with some guildies, every hour log the ranger on to track. If mob is up, batphone goes out. If not, camp and resume grouping, tradeskilling, soloing or ForumQuesting. Or watch Netflix, football, pron... Whatever floats your boat.

[arsenalpow]

Actually TMO is very willing to work with others. Sorry you're so jaded you can't see that. On another note, deru says alterations can be made, is the raid forum the only place for this? It seems it's very void of discussion or one guild says "we don't agree" then just ghosts the convo...

TMO is not willing to work on anything unless it's completely beneficial to them. You have zero clue as to what your leadership actually says behind the scenes but you're out here toeing the company line. I had Unbrella tell me TMO will work with IB if necessary to maintain the flow of pixels if it means keeping class R locked out of content.

Class R is the epitome of working with people, we don't have FrapsQuest standoffs at every raid encounter, guilds raid with a level of decency that TMO or IB can't even fathom, and the big guilds don't crush the little guilds for the sake of extra pixels. Put your fucking money where you mouth is because the class R guilds have been for nearly a year now.

[Anichek]

I'd actually like to keep this out of RnF, if possible, because then any chance for constructive discourse goes out the window.

If you guys want things to change, post in raid discussion with your various ideas and suggestions. If it's clear there's enough support for the removal or modification of rules, they'll get changed. Right now there is no desire to change/review any of the rules because it's felt that everyone is happy with the current rule-set. If that's not the case, express it with forum threads.

I think we have a number of rules that are needlessly complicated and overwhelmingly complex, especially for guilds new to the raid scene. There has been more than one guild that's had a difficult time grasping how everything works when trying to enter the raid scene in recent months, and that's not good. But we've talked about it before in the past, and until you guys show us you don't like the way things are, nothing is going to even get looked at.

(As a side note, in regards to how mobility actually takes place, as of right now if you are a Class R guild that wants to move to Class C, all you have to do is kill a Class C spawn. I believe we decided that downing a VP dragon would also result in a transition to Class C. As far as the reverse goes - Class C to Class R - we don't want to discourage guilds from trying to move to Class C because they're afraid of doing poorly and getting stuck, so moving back to Class R won't be restrictively difficult. A request to the staff is likely all that would be needed. I will say that anyone who moves up to Class C should expect to stay there for at least a couple weeks to a month, regardless of performance. We'd want any guild that moves to Class C to give it their best effort before being asked to be placed back in Class-R if they are unable to kill anything.)

tl;dr Express interest in change, and it will get looked at. If you're like me and you feel we have too many rules with too many nuances and special exceptions that end up scaring off the little guilds they were designed to protect, get together with your guild's raid reps and talk to them about what you'd like to see changed. Have them post that in the raid forum to show the staff you'd like changes to the current rules. Good luck!


http://www.tias.com/stores/mspackratz/pictures/mh3951a.jpg

[Fael]

Fraps and frivolous petition quest is IB's thing, not ours.

If the GM's were worth their salt they would institute a rule where any frivolous petition not supported by clear evidence would result in a forfeiture of the mob in question.

petitioning anything that is not a clear blatant foul is pathetic. Unfortunately it seems to be met with warmth by the service staff, and so Ib will continue to do it.

Dolic

[Ravager]

A lot of bitterness here raev... All the mobs spawn during the weekend then class c is the same as class r we group and play eq.... It's not much different.

Because only 2 guilds currently occupy class C does it enjoy its cozy R-ness. Add 2 or 3 more to the mix like you guys say you want and you'll have all the clusterfucks that come with FFA mobs and probably even worse, because the new guilds going into VP are bound to fuck everyone up when they don't know how to play the zone. Plus with more guilds competing, it'll just be the same old escalating of tactics that leads to CotH ducking. The reality is the limited content can't support the FFA mentality with as many raid capable guilds there are on this server.

[Ella`Ella]

Sounds more like the question should be less about what we can do to make Kunark work and more about how we can help accelerate the release of velious.

[Anichek]

Sounds more like the question should be less about what we can do to make Kunark work and more about how we can help accelerate the release of velious.

More Beta testing.

Guilds get tasked with specifics that the devs want tested, stressed, etc.

Parlay out functionality testing down to the individual encounter and NPC to PC interaction - get feedback.

etc etc.

'Brella I agree that a proactive approach towards Velious testing (and would add planning, for the raid scene), would be beneficial to all. Notwithstanding the current raid scene, but moreso bringing new content to life that can help relieve some of the stresses on the existing system.

[kaev]

The fact that they think they're giving anything to casuals is the whole problem with the raid scene.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ x 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Daldaen]

Fraps and frivolous petition quest is IB's thing, not ours.

If the GM's were worth their salt they would institute a rule where any frivolous petition not supported by clear evidence would result in a forfeiture of the mob in question.

petitioning anything that is not a clear blatant foul is pathetic. Unfortunately it seems to be met with warmth by the service staff, and so Ib will continue to do it.

Dolic

Correct me if I'm wrong. But you were the guild who petitioned BDA for having a few members do <1000 DMG to Nagafen under 20% when Taken had gotten him down that far to start and wasn't showing any signs of wiping right?

[Raev]

Sounds more like the question should be less about what we can do to make Kunark work and more about how we can help accelerate the release of velious.

Velious will be awesome, but I'm not really sure what we can do to assist it that has not already been done.

Also, from what I hear Velious is going to straight FFA. So the one good thing that came out of the raid negotiations last winter will be abandoned, and the release of Velious will see an explosion of pseudo-poopsocking the like of which we have never seen before.

[Detoxx]

Class C is the problem. They've always been the problem. Working with TMO and IB is like pulling fucking teeth. Anytime class C is involved in anything the entire situation usually turns to shit.
Are you fucking serious? Anytime a class c guild crosses your path and tries to talk to you about anything involving the target were going after, you give a straight "fuck you" answer to us. You, sir, are the one who it is like pulling teeth to work with. Get over yourself, jesus christ.

[Nietche]

I'd actually like to keep this out of RnF, if possible, because then any chance for constructive discourse goes out the window.


Thank you, Derubael.

If there were something that dropped you to Class R if you don't make a Class C or VP kill for 2 weeks... maybe it would be worth testing for some guilds.

I'd guess some guilds would be inclined to try VP if they thought they could push a Class C guild out of the Class C equation by competing, which I gather was the gist of the conversation surrounding the Class R-Class C discussion.

Go back to 96 hour windows with the possibility of window extensions. As it stands, these 16 hour windows force huge groups of people to sit around hoping to be the quickest off the line, from Friday afternoon through Sunday night.

Derubael once stated several months ago that he didn't like the Friday through Sunday setup for repops, but it is what it is. He addressed part of this statement in this very thread. I personally like the 96 hour windows as it prevents socking (the original goal of implementing variance).

But I don't see Class C agreeing to even every 4th VP spawn is Class R.

There seems to be a tension between WoW gamers and 1999 EQ gamers. In WoW, when the attunements were changed so that just about anyone could achieve end game (items), the sense of achievement was lost on the 20% minority who worked hours, days, and months on achieving leet pixels. In classic EQ, that mentality exists even at level 20 when you get your surname and have items you could never attain at level 1 (untwinked and alone). To me, the same argument that says that twinks ruin the game applies to the argument that everyone on the server should have a free shot at end game loot. What becomes the point of raiding end game when everyone has a free shot?

Velious will solve many of the problems we are faced with in Kunark, but only until the top guilds on the server reach and maintain end game pixels. At some point, the staff is going to have to say "no" to the cry babies who want their free loot through de facto instances (rotations).

The staff could also consider adding an alternate system of acquiring end game capabilities for groups in Velious through AA, which would cut down on alts, distract low end from their incessant clamoring for free pixels, and provide mains a reason to play their mains outside of raids thus possibly increasing the sense of community for all players on the server.

[arsenalpow]

Are you fucking serious? Anytime a class c guild crosses your path and tries to talk to you about anything involving the target were going after, you give a straight "fuck you" answer to us. You, sir, are the one who it is like pulling teeth to work with. Get over yourself, jesus christ.

Common denominator is class C. BDA works very well with the class R guilds.

[Arkaan]

Lol im sorry... I don't raid on live or here, but I must ask... WTF is CotH ducking? Makes me laugh every time I see it and I don't even know what it is.

Wouldn't your cast be interrupted if you duck? hahaha!

[Jarnauga]

We all agreed to a ruleset that took months to hash out. I really dont think it's wise to change things when it has been proved to be working.. Especially now just after 6 months, with velious on the horizon !

Let's not forget that the only socking in ffa happens because one class R guild decided to start a weapons race. And somehow it's because of IB and TMO ? Seriously, cut the bullshit right here..

Casuals have never killed so many dragons that in the last 6 months.. And i supported the rules change that enabled that. And now you wanna change the rules to get even more ? Some of the class R guilds can't even kill Trak on their own !

.. Who here wants more pixels ?

[Daldaen]

Lol im sorry... I don't raid on live or here, but I must ask... WTF is CotH ducking? Makes me laugh every time I see it and I don't even know what it is.

Wouldn't your cast be interrupted if you duck? hahaha!

Chain casting CotH and ducking it each time you get close to landing it if the mob didn't spawn.

If the mob spawns while you're casting it, you let the CoTH go through which gives you a few seconds advantage in getting your person CotHed first.

Ultimate irony of this is that duck should not interrupt your spells in classic. For some reason they don't want to fix that on blue. The sole feature that red has that blue doesn't. Too bad red has tons of other non-classic features making it a custom server.

[Arkaan]

Thanks. Seems kind of absurd though. Why not just have the guy you were going to CotH stand on the spawn in the first place? Who are you trying to CotH anyway? your MT?

All of this so you get the first engage right?

This is why I don't raid lol

[mgellan]

Velious will be awesome, but I'm not really sure what we can do to assist it that has not already been done.

Also, from what I hear Velious is going to straight FFA. So the one good thing that came out of the raid negotiations last winter will be abandoned, and the release of Velious will see an explosion of pseudo-poopsocking the like of which we have never seen before.

So we should probably be talking more about what a new system for Velious should look like versus messing around with minor changes to the current one. Server population may double when Velious drops, but keeping 80% of people logging who got pissed off at the raid scene BEFORE and left til Velious will require something other than a FFA-playground for neckbeards that seems to be the default position at the moment...

Regards,
Mg

[Daldaen]

Thanks. Seems kind of absurd though. Why not just have the guy you were going to CotH stand on the spawn in the first place? Who are you trying to CotH anyway? your MT?

All of this so you get the first engage right?

This is why I don't raid lol

That's how it used to be done. But people were getting FTE with autofire macros/programs that would be firing off a /target nearest and /range Attack Hotkey hundreds of times per second. Some mobs were getting engaged before you even saw them on your screen. It was dumb.

So they said you could no longer be FTE with someone sitting at the spawn. Naturally mage CoTH is next fastest way to get FTE so here we are.

[-Catherin-]

Fraps and frivolous petition quest is IB's thing, not ours.

If the GM's were worth their salt they would institute a rule where any frivolous petition not supported by clear evidence would result in a forfeiture of the mob in question.

petitioning anything that is not a clear blatant foul is pathetic. Unfortunately it seems to be met with warmth by the service staff, and so Ib will continue to do it.

Dolic



Correct me if I'm wrong. But you were the guild who petitioned BDA for having a few members do <1000 DMG to Nagafen under 20% when Taken had gotten him down that far to start and wasn't showing any signs of wiping right?


And wouldnt let it go for months until we were all forced to waste our time in a skype conference with the GMs.

Exactly. One of the many reasons Taken will not go to Class C if we have any choice in the matter.

[Ravager]

Thank you, Derubael.



I'd guess some guilds would be inclined to try VP if they thought they could push a Class C guild out of the Class C equation by competing, which I gather was the gist of the conversation surrounding the Class R-Class C discussion.



Derubael once stated several months ago that he didn't like the Friday through Sunday setup for repops, but it is what it is. He addressed part of this statement in this very thread. I personally like the 96 hour windows as it prevents socking (the original goal of implementing variance).



There seems to be a tension between WoW gamers and 1999 EQ gamers. In WoW, when the attunements were changed so that just about anyone could achieve end game (items), the sense of achievement was lost on the 20% minority who worked hours, days, and months on achieving leet pixels. In classic EQ, that mentality exists even at level 20 when you get your surname and have items you could never attain at level 1 (untwinked and alone). To me, the same argument that says that twinks ruin the game applies to the argument that everyone on the server should have a free shot at end game loot. What becomes the point of raiding end game when everyone has a free shot?

Velious will solve many of the problems we are faced with in Kunark, but only until the top guilds on the server reach and maintain end game pixels. At some point, the staff is going to have to say "no" to the cry babies who want their free loot through de facto instances (rotations).

The staff could also consider adding an alternate system of acquiring end game capabilities for groups in Velious through AA, which would cut down on alts, distract low end from their incessant clamoring for free pixels, and provide mains a reason to play their mains outside of raids thus possibly increasing the sense of community for all players on the server.

So a person who spends years grinding to 60 and wants to kill a dragon with his friends without turning it into a full time job is asking for free handouts, but if that same person apps to a class C guild and stands on the shoulders of the core who do the majority of the heavy lifting and gets in the DKP line for loot is somehow earning it? You can't deny half your numbers are people who joined because it was the path of least resistance to the loot.

[Skydash]

No guilds will move to Class C the way it stands.

Class C has locked out the Class R guilds from VP, which was the entire point of dividing the server into two groups.

Class C does not want unrestricted Competition in VP.

If any Class R guild tried to move to Class C, they would lose the ability to play 90% of the game. Would be forced to spend countless hours tracking. And would need to recruit an additional 100 players minimum to have enough people log on when a Batphone goes off.

This set up stinks like a festering boil, and it will only get worse in Velious, until the boil comes to a head and explodes by the slightest touch.

The only totally fair thing to do, is set ALL spawns on a Rotation, and eliminate the C class entirely. Force Class C to sit and wait like the rest of the server.

Class C is getting an unfair advantage for some unknown reason.

[khanable]

Are you fucking serious? Anytime a class c guild crosses your path and tries to talk to you about anything involving the target were going after, you give a straight "fuck you" answer to us. You, sir, are the one who it is like pulling teeth to work with. Get over yourself, jesus christ.

Chest could definitely work on his people skills when it comes to talking to TMO and IB

[arsenalpow]

We all agreed to a ruleset that took months to hash out. I really dont think it's wise to change things when it has been proved to be working.. Especially now just after 6 months, with velious on the horizon !

Let's not forget that the only socking in ffa happens because one class R guild decided to start a weapons race. And somehow it's because of IB and TMO ? Seriously, cut the bullshit right here..

Casuals have never killed so many dragons that in the last 6 months.. And i supported the rules change that enabled that. And now you wanna change the rules to get even more ? Some of the class R guilds can't even kill Trak on their own !

.. Who here wants more pixels ?

That is the dumbest fucking narrative, I'm so tired of hearing "OMG you're killing dragonz! Y r u not happyz?!" The hardcore guilds brought this on themselves because they shit all over the sandbox so the staff was forced to intervene. Enough with the class C charity line, it's so ignorant.

The guilds that can't kill Trak or Gore solo don't have single slots in the rotation. Right now the gore rotation is only 6 deep with Taken BDA and Div holding solo spots and 2 slots with 3 guilds all working together. Trak has some combined forces as well.

Coth ducking and autofire are all symptoms of the sickness, treating the symptoms doesn't fix the underlying problem.

[kotton05]

Common denominator is class C. BDA works very well with the class R guilds.

You're so dense. The common denominator is your pre conceived notions against us. TMO and IB are vastly different than what it was from the train war era and before. Why can't you see we want what's best too?... You just throw us under the bus like some road kill. Like class c is the scarlet letter for pixels.. Lol

[arsenalpow]

Chest could definitely work on his people skills when it comes to talking to TMO and IB

I'm fine when spoken to in a respectful tone. The last time I told TMO to outright fuck off was the Fear train that Unbrella tacitly approved. Guys, Dinacarl was trying to pull.

[khanable]

To get respect ya gotta give it homie

I think all of us could work on how we talk to each other

Bunch of fuckin' potty mouths up in hurr

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9RRE72RPDas/Uh-_FdJ6p5I/AAAAAAAAAd0/7RnjOs0szL4/s1600/bar+of+soap.jpg

[arsenalpow]

You're so dense. The common denominator is your pre conceived notions against us. TMO and IB are vastly different than what it was from the train war era and before. Why can't you see we want what's best too?... You just throw us under the bus like some road kill. Like class c is the scarlet letter for pixels.. Lol

Then prove it's all better now. Oh wait, Taken is actually competing JUST LIKE YOU WANTED and are being vilified non fucking stop on the forums and in game. Class R works together with zero incident over the past year, let's condemn that as well. Shit hasn't changed at all, the only change is the protection the class system affords the casual guilds from having to deal with your ilk unless they want to.

[Ella`Ella]

Chest could definitely work on his people skills when it comes to talking to TMO and IB

[arsenalpow]

To get respect ya gotta give it homie

I think all of us could work on how we talk to each other

Bunch of fuckin' potty mouths up in hurr

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9RRE72RPDas/Uh-_FdJ6p5I/AAAAAAAAAd0/7RnjOs0szL4/s1600/bar+of+soap.jpg

It's a vicious cycle. Words don't mean shit. Be the change. If class C is so much of a palatable group of people then how come they haven't lead the way for bettering the high end raid scene? Answer: because pixels.

[Ravager]

You're so dense. The common denominator is your pre conceived notions against us. TMO and IB are vastly different than what it was from the train war era and before.

Training is against the rules and you've been more or less separated from the rest of the server. The circumstances have changed. I find it doubtful the guild has changed much, even with the leadership change. All will show their true colors in FFA Velious.

[Ella`Ella]

It's a vicious cycle. Words don't mean shit. Be the change. If class C is so much of a palatable group of people then how come they haven't lead the way for bettering the high end raid scene? Answer: because pixels.

Remember how TMO publicly offers the entire server the opportunity to do CT skin hand ins while BDA back doors their turn in for a select few?

[arsenalpow]

Remember how TMO publicly offers the entire server the opportunity to do CT skin hand ins while BDA back doors their turn in for a select few?

Everyone but TMO and IB. Remember when TMO was charging 200K to piggyback on the turnin for months and no one bought in to that scam?

Remember when TMO was suspended and BDA opened up the raid content for everyone? Remember when BDA ran point on founding a rotation system that class R has persisted to this day? Remember when Chest personally moderated class R rotation policy?

Pepperidge farm remembers.

[Ella`Ella]

Remember when TMO was suspended and BDA opened up the raid content for everyone? Remember when BDA ran point on founding a rotation system that class R has persisted to this day? Remember when Chest personally moderated class R rotation policy?

Pepperidge farm remembers.

.

[Daldaen]

Remember how TMO publicly offers the entire server the opportunity to do CT skin hand ins while BDA back doors their turn in for a select few?

Let me know when this happens again. Our VS staves are beginning to pile up.

[Ella`Ella]

Let me know when this happens again. Our VS staves are beginning to pile up.

Paying top dollar for one of those staves! We usually do a skin turn in when we have at least 2 staves of our own

[sanforce]

Then prove it's all better now. Oh wait, Taken is actually competing JUST LIKE YOU WANTED and are being vilified non fucking stop on the forums and in game. Class R works together with zero incident over the past year, let's condemn that as well. Shit hasn't changed at all, the only change is the protection the class system affords the casual guilds from having to deal with your ilk unless they want to.

I'm glad Taken is competing, congrats on the last VS, and good luck on future FFA targets.

The main problems that I see are 1) raid windows that are only open on the weekends, 2) reduced variance that has resulted in people socking again, & 3) no guilds want to make the R to C jump (as originally intended). A system that gives Class R guilds a chance to dip their toe in the water and back off if it doesn't feel good might influence other guilds to try Class C out, but that will only work if the Class C setup gets a little less intense. The mob races are good, the FTE sockfest is bad. Adding variance back *might* just fix this problem, so we can get back to a system where a single tracker calls in the forces - or, we could go full retard and reduce the variance to less than 2 hours, so entire guilds can race for the FTE (I'm not serious, entire guilds racing for FTE would be hilarious, and would completely suck from a raid perspective).

Everything else seems to be working as intended. Class R guilds get a stress and drama free rotation, Class C guilds get to compete (tho, rule changes should be implemented to limit the FTE socking aspect), and a middle ground where Class R guilds get to compete with Class C guilds - without risking getting pushed into Class C only encounters.

However, it's clear that everyone has their own opinion, and I doubt anyone is going to let up on their stance. I guess our only hope is full FFA Velious.

[arsenalpow]

.

Sorry, you're edit isn't going to save you

Remember when TMO was suspended and FE gave BDA several mobs - think I liaised with Skarry for that. Remember when Class C actually started the conversations about giving mobs to Class R (Albeit, the proposal was rejected, we weren't opposed to what the rest of the server wanted), Remember when Chest personally prevented 2 upcoming class R guilds from joining the rotation and griefed them off the server?

Going tit-for-tat on he-did/she-did gets us nowhere, mongo. If Class R and Class C can't show a little respect for each other, you're going to have a very hard time finding middle ground. And if you're the spokesman for an entire class of playstyle, you might be held to a slightly higher standard in changing your approach when you try working with Class-C.

FE didn't give BDA anything. Class C never started conversations about giving mobs of substance away. Your bullshit offers of non epic piece mobs was just as transparent as TMO's endangered species program. The 2 guilds that wanted to play Class C style in class R drummed themselves off the server, no one believes your rhetoric for a second.

Going tit for tat is fine by me because I actually follow through with what I believe in, having integrity affords me that. You splintered off from BDA to fight the good fight against TMO and eventually merged into them since it was the path of least resistance for precious pixels.

Class C has never offered middle ground on anything. You work for that bottomline only, dem pixels. You want to work for something better, I can appreciate that, but lip service is bullshit. I drove for change in class R along with many others, if you want change now then step the fuck up but sit here and lecture unless you actually plan on acting on these supposedly good intentions.

[khanable]

is it possible to have a thread where you two don't go all white girls on each other

[arsenalpow]

is it possible to have a thread where you two don't go all white girls on each other

Is it possible for Unbrella to stop blatantly lying and trying to spin things in his benefit? If so I foresee a chance for less argumentative threads.

[mgellan]

God Cuc thats sig-worthy :) :) -- Mg

[Wrench]

is it possible to have a thread where you two don't go all white girls on each other

drama whores gonna drama whore

[Erati]

So what is Class C's biggest counter argument to Raev/Chest's proposal of making FFA spawns either spawn in groups ( so there's some semblance of strat/mobilization ) or making sim-repops pure FFA w bag limits and having normal spawns only rotate C/R

The latter would require no coding ( besides update to the raid site ) and would probably give people the best mix of what everyone wants.

Repops would remain the most fun/rewarding
Normal spawns would allow for playstyles to remain on their respective sides of the fence

[sanforce]

He said ... she said ... who cares, these are old conflicts and water under the bridge at this point. Quit trying to burn a potentially constructive thread into the RNF domain.

The Class R guilds were right, Class C guilds were actively blocking content because they could field the required forces much faster, which never let the R guilds practice encounters. It was a vicious cycle that is now over.

Can we not figure out how to create a better raid environment within the R/FFA/C bounds that are presently established? Old grievances are preventing the R & C spokesmen from having a civil conversation, and it holds the entire raid scene hostage.

Our only hope at this point seems to be a full Velious FFA release. But if the two sides actually work together, some of the agreements might roll over into Velious. At this point, Class R wants more stress-free pixels, and Class C doesn't want to "give anything else away." That's not going to change, R/FFA/C were setup for a reason.

Class R currently gets ~30% of the mobs, and Class C currently gets ~70% of the mobs. Without changing these percentages, how can we make the raid scene better right now?

[mgellan]

Class R currently gets ~30% of the mobs, and Class C currently gets ~70% of the mobs. Without changing these percentages, how can we make the raid scene better right now?

Sooo (without disputing your numbers) if a system was put in place that resulted in the same ratio in Velious Class C would agree to it?

Regards,
Mg

[Ella`Ella]

Sorry, you're edit isn't going to save you



FE didn't give BDA anything. Class C never started conversations about giving mobs of substance away. Your bullshit offers of non epic piece mobs was just as transparent as TMO's endangered species program. The 2 guilds that wanted to play Class C style in class R drummed themselves off the server, no one believes your rhetoric for a second.

Going tit for tat is fine by me because I actually follow through with what I believe in, having integrity affords me that. You splintered off from BDA to fight the good fight against TMO and eventually merged into them since it was the path of least resistance for precious pixels.

Class C has never offered middle ground on anything. You work for that bottomline only, dem pixels. You want to work for something better, I can appreciate that, but lip service is bullshit. I drove for change in class R along with many others, if you want change now then step the fuck up but sit here and lecture unless you actually plan on acting on these supposedly good intentions.

First off, FE gave you several mobs during that suspension. In fact, FE gave BDA several mobs over the course of our existence when our competition was suspended. It's only natural that you'd conveniently forget.

Also, it's ironic that you come at Class C stomping your feet about how all we care about is pixels as if you don't. When you originally brought this idea up about eliminating where Class R and C overlap you wanted it to just be Class C/R. If you didn't give a shit about pixels, I imagine the proposal would look something more like C/C/R, which would instantly be accepted by Class-C and you'd be completely rid of where we overlap.

Now we're talking about FFA in VP so there is no consequence of being locked into C if you kill something in there. I assure you that if you think Class C being involved in FFA is toxic to the play style of Class-R, you're going to have a very hard time finding any enjoyment in VP.

I guess, however you want to look at it, FE achieved what it set out to do. TMO was temporarily disbanded and the leadership that once forcefully kept the server on lock down is gone from the ranks and, for the most part, the server completely.

I'm not sure where those initial threads by Mazam and I went however, I'm pretty sure we were offering Inny, Fay, Tal, Gore, Vox/Nagy's on some rotation, Draco and Maestro. Many of those mobs are epic mobs - significant epic mobs, might I add. I agree that our original proposal wasn't as favorable to Class-R as the current system, but we absolutely took the initiative to get some sort of ball rolling.

Sooo (without disputing your numbers) if a system was put in place that resulted in the same ratio in Velious Class C would agree to it?

Regards,
Mg

C/C/R and let repops alternate from C to R which ignores whatever it was in the actual respawn cycle. Example, if Class R killed trak last on a normal spawn and Class C kill the last rumble repop trak then class R gets that repop trak.

[kotton05]

Lengthen the windows. Most problems solved. Keep the current repops but make it FFA all mobs with limit.

[Erati]

Class R currently gets ~30% of the mobs, and Class C currently gets ~70% of the mobs. Without changing these percentages, how can we make the raid scene better right now?

C/C/R would be how it would cycle, repops would be 'classless'- yes even VP ( however VP mobs would not count towards your bag limit like current ruleset )

also make more concrete rules for going from Class C back to Class R aka time frame of expectations

C/C/R would represent what your data suggests in terms of spawn allocation ( C/R rotation would be more proper but Class C would not agree to it ), doing this would force some current R guilds to at least consider moving up to the competitive class as the perk will now become basically the only way to see mobs without waiting in a 6 month line...however this also forces the guild to be even 'more hardcore'

Repops being classless which includes VP would bring about much more interesting repops and fun in general. Class C having their mobs 'wait' for them on sim repop is bogus and a loot vending machine if there has ever been one.

If Asgard walks up to class C Talendor from a repop, and the class C guilds having just finished competing in VP chose to rush to FFA CT/Trak/VS etc then they deserve to lose their shot at Talendor and Asgard shouldnt suddenly become Class C for killing it.

[kotton05]

Sooo (without disputing your numbers) if a system was put in place that resulted in the same ratio in Velious Class C would agree to it?

Regards,
Mg

Class system gone with velious

[Ella`Ella]

Lengthen the windows. Most problems solved. Keep the current repops but make it FFA all mobs with limit.

Shorten respawn time and increase variance - open up more content to everyone more frequently and make coth ducking and socking less prevalent.

[mgellan]

I'm not sure where those initial threads by Mazam and I went however, I'm pretty sure we were offering Inny, Fay, Tal, Gore, Vox/Nagy's on some rotation, Draco and Maestro. Many of those mobs are epic mobs - significant epic mobs, might I add. I agree that our original proposal wasn't as favorable to Class-R as the current system, but we absolutely took the initiative to get some sort of ball rolling.

I feel Omni currently enjoys an amiable relationship with the Class C guilds, so I for one am happy to concede that there have been significant changes to attitude towards more casual players - can we get the discussion off history and perhaps look forward and see what agreements might be workable for Velious?

Regards,
Gord

[toolshed]

sooooo we could all bitch about Kunark being limiting in raid content..... or we could play on the beta server and get Velious out.......

Ah fuck it, LawyerQuest is just so much fun!

[Erati]

Velious needs to be FFA so everyone can stretch out their neckbeards and e-peens to new heights

however

the old Kunark mobs/Classic mobs should still rotate C/R but at that point should probably get rid of FFA since Velious will offer the real FFA competition

[mgellan]

Class system gone with velious

Yeah, so I hear people say (with the glaring exception of Rogean) - I think that would be a huge mistake that would seriously reduce the uptake for returning players, so lets talk about alternatives that are palatable?

For example Class C agrees 1 in 3 raid mobs will be left to Class R for rotation, 1 in 3 Class R can participate in FFA, 1 in 3 Class C reserved. Easy peasy.

Regards,
Mg

[Erati]

Yeah, so I hear people say (with the glaring exception of Rogean) - I think that would be a huge mistake that would seriously reduce the uptake for returning players, so lets talk about alternatives that are palatable?

Regards,
Mg

I think theres a misconception with the rumors of the class system being axed for Velious

I doubt its going to be completely removed as it represents the opportunity for brand new players/guilds coming to the server and seeing raid content without having to throw away their lives to see a proper dragon

I do feel though at the same time it is impossible to start Velious mobs with a R/C rotation on them because no one has experienced P99 Velious yet so how can you qualify which mobs belong in the system or not til we have all experience what they are like on our box

[Ella`Ella]

There is also a misconception that you have to throw your life away in order to see dragons in class C.

brand new players/guilds coming to the server and seeing raid content without having to throw away their lives to see a proper dragon

That's really not the truth.

Class C, whether it be TMO or IB expects some degree of tracking and attendance, but it's really not that overbearing to anyone's schedule. If you want to see a dragon, the expectations are pretty forgiving. However, loot in both guilds, is awarded to those who have higher overall metrics in tracking and attendance. Also not that TMO gives preferences to mains on loot regardless of the stats of another player if they are requesting the loot for an alt.

[Daldaen]

So what is Class C's biggest counter argument to Raev/Chest's proposal of making FFA spawns either spawn in groups ( so there's some semblance of strat/mobilization ) or making sim-repops pure FFA w bag limits and having normal spawns only rotate C/R

The latter would require no coding ( besides update to the raid site ) and would probably give people the best mix of what everyone wants.

Repops would remain the most fun/rewarding
Normal spawns would allow for playstyles to remain on their respective sides of the fence

C/C/R rotation is fine just include VP in it.

Repops go full FFA and don't change class status. Bag limit is thrown out entirely. So that its truly free for all.

70-30% will stay the same ratio. Class R gets VP spawn every 3rd week and Class C doesn't lose any FFA targets to Class R nor are they locked out of respawn targets from bag limiting.

That will lead to no CotH ducking (unless Class C wants it). No poopsocking (unless Class C wants it). Same amount of mobs to respective classes. True competition among guilds on respawns.

[arsenalpow]

CCR is unacceptable even with VP in the mix (which will never happen)

The easiest fix without changing a hundred things is to just make all FFA mobs for the week spawn simultaneously.

The next best option is C/R only with FFA for all repops.

[Erati]

There is also a misconception that you have to throw your life away in order to see dragons in class C.



That's really not the truth.

Class C, whether it be TMO or IB expects some degree of tracking and attendance, but it's really not that overbearing to anyone's schedule. If you want to see a dragon, the expectations are pretty forgiving. However, loot in both guilds, is awarded to those who have higher overall metrics in tracking and attendance. Also not that TMO gives preferences to mains on loot regardless of the stats of another player if they are requesting the loot for an alt.


I am more or less talking about a brand spankin new player who hasnt even created his character yet nor the guild he will establish

that player JUST starting out certainly has to throw away a significant portion of his life in order to raid casually, and if the class system is thrown away at Velious, that person is forced to b in a Class C guild or fight for left over scraps

thats why I felt the Class system should stay active even in Velious, just not include Velious mobs right off the bat

[Daldaen]

CCR is unacceptable even with VP in the mix (which will never happen)

The easiest fix without changing a hundred things is to just make all FFA mobs for the week spawn simultaneously.

The next best option is C/R only with FFA for all repops.

Making FFA spawn simultaneously is good. But that requires a code change I think. Having mobs trigger other mobs in other zones sounds very difficult to set up with EQ Code.

C/R/C/R will lose to many valuable pixels as stated above. Going from 70-30 to 50-50 (not truly 50-50 since VP is 6 mobs and completely exempt), will be deemed unacceptable since Class C loses pixels in this case I think.

[Erati]

C/R with FFA repops is a good start

I think bag limit would have to still b e maintained however, and I would like to see the repop not ding you for going for a VP dragon

If repops were 'classless' you would see much healthier competition from every guild because then suddenly Class R guilds could attempt to slip a VP dragon past Class C here n there.

if anything, mobs being qualified as 'Class C' after a repop occurs should never, ever ever promote your guild to Class C. That encounter completely does not represent any kind of 'bridging the gap' or 'graduating' to the other class. If Class C is the 'competative' class then surely they would not mind extra competition for their repopped mobs

Having Class C mobs wait around for them to finish up in VP or higher priority targets is really dumb

[arsenalpow]

Bag limit has to stay for mobs outside of VP, that's one part of the agreement that I think has functioned well.

[toolshed]

so basically class C guilds don't want to work on Velious content on beta (even though they have the most to gain because it's a raiding expansion) because they don't want to give up sole ownership of the highest raiding dungeon in kunark (VP)

[sanforce]

I would be OK with VP being FFA on repops, but I doubt anyone in Class C would be willing to allow VP mobs to go on rotation. VP mobs are considered the best in the game, they should always have some competition surrounding them. However, if VP repops were FFA, a class R guild would have a pretty good shot at downing something while IB/TMO were concentrating on dragons with better loot.

I also don't really want to see C/C/R, removing FFA removes the incentive for other guilds to develop their Class C tactics, before jumping completely in (again, this is the intended goal of C/FFA/R).

Also, the proposed rules don't get at the core issue, which is a resurgence in socking. The server used to mitigate this through increased variance and extended windows. 16 hour windows are short enough to encourage this terrible practice.

Would class R guild be opposed to shorter windows but larger variance? You would still only have to log a tracker in occasionally, and it would reduce the multi group FTE races that we currently experience on Class C and FFA mobs.

[arsenalpow]

so basically class C guilds don't want to work on Velious content on beta (even though they have the most to gain because it's a raiding expansion) because they don't want to give up sole ownership of the highest raiding dungeon in kunark (VP)

I don't think that's a fair assessment. Lots of guilds have been testing including class C guilds.

[sanforce]

so basically class C guilds don't want to work on Velious content on beta (even though they have the most to gain because it's a raiding expansion) because they don't want to give up sole ownership of the highest raiding dungeon in kunark (VP)

Class C guilds do raid Velious Beta, for our own experience and to help speed up the development.

[arsenalpow]

I would be OK with VP being FFA on repops, but I doubt anyone in Class C would be willing to allow VP mobs go to a rotation. VP mobs are considered the best in the game, they should always have some competition surrounding them. However, if VP repops were FFA, a class R guild would have a pretty good shot at downing something while IB/TMO were concentrating on dragons with better loot.

I also don't really want to see C/C/R, removing FFA removes this incentive for other guilds to develop their Class C tactics, before jumping completely in (again, this is the intended goal of C/FFA/R).

Also, the proposed rules don't get at the core issue, which is a resurgence in socking. The server used to mitigate this through increased variance and extended windows. 16 hour windows are short enough to encourage this terrible practice.

Would class R guild be opposed to shorter windows but larger variance? You would still only have to log a tracker in occasionally, and it would reduce the multi group FTE races that we currently experience on Class C and FFA mobs.

Leave the windows alone, they're fine as is. Again, make all FFA mobs for the week spawn simultaneously and you'll see less socking because it will be easier to spread out.

[mgellan]

C/R with classless FFA repops with a bag limit (including inclusion of VP and Velious mobs in the mix) sounds good to me although I wouldn't mind if Class R rotation is not impacted by repops (i.e. no obligation to take your Class R mob rotation first on repop) since now they're being competed...

Regards,
Mg

[Raev]

Class C, whether it be TMO or IB expects some degree of tracking and attendance, but it's really not that overbearing to anyone's schedule.

It's not the amount of time, its the way that time is spent.

C/C/R rotation is fine just include VP in it.

Repops go full FFA

Sounds quite reasonable to me; I have no idea why Chest doesn't like it. To me the important part is Class R being considered full members of the server and getting to see 100% of the content.

I would also add: why not have 96 hour variance or whatever Class C can agree to, and 0 hour variance for Class R? I suppose this only works if the GMs agree to make the R rotation official.

Of course I very much doubt the class C guilds would agree to this; if Chest was seen in EC wearing a crown of rile TMO might have a collective aneurysm on the spot.


I do feel though at the same time it is impossible to start Velious mobs with a R/C rotation on them because no one has experienced P99 Velious yet so how can you qualify which mobs belong in the system or not til we have all experience what they are like on our box

100% agree, but after a few months of epeen/neckbeard explostion the R/C system should be extended. Again, I see these as different playstyles.

[mgellan]

Also, the proposed rules don't get at the core issue, which is a resurgence in socking. The server used to mitigate this through increased variance and extended windows. 16 hour windows are short enough to encourage this terrible practice.

Would class R guild be opposed to shorter windows but larger variance? You would still only have to log a tracker in occasionally, and it would reduce the multi group FTE races that we currently experience on Class C and FFA mobs.

Would the larger number of available mobs in Velious not reduce the propensity towards socking anyways? We all have limited resources... longer variance would be a pain, even now it's a colossal pain when mobs wait til the last 10 mins of their window to make an appearance...

Regards,
Mg

[Raev]

I also don't really want to see C/C/R, removing FFA removes the incentive for other guilds to develop their Class C tactics, before jumping completely in (again, this is the intended goal of C/FFA/R).

Class R guilds do not want to join Class C and never will.

However, repops would be purely FFA and give everyone plenty of space to compete in a way that doesn't involve CoH ducking.

[sanforce]

Leave the windows alone, they're fine as is. Again, make all FFA mobs for the week spawn simultaneously and you'll see less socking because it will be easier to spread out.

I personally like raiding on weekdays tho, so increasing windows would decrease socking and also start spreading mobs out again (and opening up weekends for real life activities). Don't get me wrong, I don't mind shunning EQ for RL weekend fun, I'll be skipping the next 3 weekends of raiding for this very reason. But, if I choose go have RL fun over the weekend, then I defacto miss 90%+ of the raids for the week. P1999 has become a weekend only raid game, which isn't great for everyone.

[Erati]

I think one of the easiest changes to implement that literally changes nothing would be repops go complete FFA ( with bag limit )

as I said before

Asgard should not become a class C guild for walking up on a freshly 'sim repopped' Talendor and killing it while it was in Skyfire being lonely

Its not Asgard's nor Talendor's fault he just 'happen' to repop as a C mob this instance, and its not his fault that his brothers in VP or VS/CT/Inny etc are more appetizing than him

Class C should not have 'reserved' mobs for them walking around after a Sim Repop, there are plenty guilds on the server that can show up and compete for it

[sanforce]

Class R guilds do not want to join Class C and never will.


That's a pretty generic statement. The current raid framework doesn't encourage anyone to go from R to C - but the GMs/Devs want guilds to be more competitive and make the jump. That's why they set this system up. It's OK if your guild never wants to make the transition to C, but other guilds might under better circumstances.

[Ravager]

That's a pretty generic statement. The current raid framework doesn't encourage anyone to go from R to C - but the GMs/Devs want guilds to be more competitive and make the jump. That's why they set this system up. It's OK if your guild never wants to make the transition to C, but other guilds might under better circumstances.

I don't know why they'd want them to make the jump. Don't their biggest headaches come from 8 guilds going for 1 dragon at the same time?

[arsenalpow]

I personally like raiding on weekdays tho, so increasing windows would decrease socking and also start spreading mobs out again (and opening up weekends for real life activities). Don't get me wrong, I don't mind shunning EQ for RL weekend fun, I'll be skipping the next 3 weekends of raiding for this very reason. But, if I choose go have RL fun over the weekend, then I defacto miss 90%+ of the raids for the week. P1999 has become a weekend only raid game, which isn't great for everyone.

Repop days were tues/wed for a while also if you remember. I don't think it's a coordinated thing it's just been sat/sun for a while with no new patches.

[Erati]

That's a pretty generic statement. The current raid framework doesn't encourage anyone to go from R to C - but the GMs/Devs want guilds to be more competitive and make the jump. That's why they set this system up. It's OK if your guild never wants to make the transition to C, but other guilds might under better circumstances.

Class R guilds would 'consider' being Class C if there was some damn incentive for such jump because right now there is zero reason to even think about making that move

Maybe if TMO offers 20 free Trak Teeth to the first R guild that says "Yes" then maybe someone would do it but again, thats TMO offering something for a 1 time deal, not the system at it's core functioning how it was intended

I agree with your premise, the whole point was for guilds to eventually move up and even down in some cases. The way VP is cock blocked tho it created no opportunities for any kind of upward movement in guilds. Taken/BDA/Div are just NOW experiencing content that TMO/IB was farming 2 years ago. The guilds are way too far behind to make the leap to put them on equal footing in the same class, you would essentially be throwing your guild and your charter away to make such a leap.

This is something that needs to be thought through by un-bias parties who do not have skin in the raid game

[Daldaen]

I personally like raiding on weekdays tho, so increasing windows would decrease socking and also start spreading mobs out again (and opening up weekends for real life activities). Don't get me wrong, I don't mind shunning EQ for RL weekend fun, I'll be skipping the next 3 weekends of raiding for this very reason. But, if I choose go have RL fun over the weekend, then I defacto miss 90%+ of the raids for the week. P1999 has become a weekend only raid game, which isn't great for everyone.

Increasing windows just increases the likelihood they spawn during neckbeard hours (when most people are asleep or at work). Those hours are a solid 2/3rds of most people's day. 96 hour windows will more often than not spawn during those 2/3rds.

If they ever go back to long variance, which almost no one other than yourself seems to want, it would be best if they coded it to have a very small chance to spawn during 2AM-6PM when most are asleep or at work, and increased chance to respawn during 6PM-2AM. The amount of spawns in the neckbeard/euro hours should be proportional to the number of neckbeards and euros there are.

[sanforce]

I think one of the easiest changes to implement that literally changes nothing would be repops go complete FFA ( with bag limit )

as I said before

Asgard should not become a class C guild for walking up on a freshly 'sim repopped' Talendor and killing it while it was in Skyfire being lonely

Its not Asgard's nor Talendor's fault he just 'happen' to repop as a C mob this instance, and its not his fault that his brothers in VP or VS/CT/Inny etc are more appetizing than him

Class C should not have 'reserved' mobs for them walking around after a Sim Repop, there are plenty guilds on the server that can show up and compete for it

I (and others) would not necessarily be opposed to revisiting the mechanics of repops. That would require some programming changes from Rogean, but it doesn't seem like it would be difficult under the current setup.

But you are missing the point, this discussion isn't about how to increase the number of available mobs for Class R guilds (tho, that could easily factor into any future agreement), it's about making the raid scene more palatable for everyone involved. We have overlapping interest in this for FFA mobs. Do you really want to be required to sit entire FTE groups around waiting for a mob to spawn during a 16 hour window? Because as it stands, socking is the only way to compete on C/FFA mobs. These problems were solved before, but the C/FFA/R era tossed all of the original socking mitigation techniques out the window.

Repop days were tues/wed for a while also if you remember. I don't think it's a coordinated thing it's just been sat/sun for a while with no new patches.

I know, but wit the current window timers, we are going to be locked into the days surrounding a patch indefinitely... until the next patch which will then shift the focus to +/- 1 day on either side of the new chosen patch day. In my opinion, it makes sense to use large enough windows the spread the engages out somewhat (and reduce socking, which is what I really want to see.)

[Clark]

Pepperidge farm remembers.

http://i.imgur.com/PT8ycHS.jpg

[-Catherin-]

Making windows longer would only reduce socking from all Class R guilds. Class C guilds will continue to operate in their normal fashion. in fact most if not all Class R guilds would simply give up entirely with larger windows.

Its one of the reasons you hardly saw any sort of presence from these guilds before the changes, the longer windows were not even close to realistic for any of us. So we didn't bother. We cant hold a presence for 4-7 days like you can, and we don't want to either. This is not a step forward.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Making windows longer would only reduce socking from all Class R guilds.

Longer windows with extended variances undeniably prevented socking for Class C, and they were extremely effective deterrents. Whether or not they provided a net benefit is another matter.

[Raev]

it's about making the raid scene more palatable for everyone involved.

What you are really saying is "I don't like TimesinkX; I prefer the older TimesinkY that fits my schedule".

FEEL THE PAIN OF CLASS R

[sanforce]

Increasing windows just increases the likelihood they spawn during neckbeard hours (when most people are asleep or at work). Those hours are a solid 2/3rds of most people's day. 96 hour windows will more often than not spawn during those 2/3rds.

If they ever go back to long variance, which almost no one other than yourself seems to want, it would be best if they coded it to have a very small chance to spawn during 2AM-6PM when most are asleep or at work, and increased chance to respawn during 6PM-2AM. The amount of spawns in the neckbeard/euro hours should be proportional to the number of neckbeards and euros there are.


Derubael once stated several months ago that he didn't like the Friday through Sunday setup for repops, but it is what it is. He addressed part of this statement in this very thread. I personally like the 96 hour windows as it prevents socking (the original goal of implementing variance).


I'm definitely not the only one that would like to see increased variance again, to cut down on the socking. I'd also be all for programming that limits the chance of spawns during Euro hours (that was a joke for my Euro friends).

There are probably just too many competing interests to make something work, but I really hope we don't have to fall back on the dreams of an FFA Velious. P1999: Sockfest edition just isn't that enjoyable.

[toolshed]

it's about making the raid scene more palatable for everyone involved.

The best way to do this is for Velious to come out. The amount of twinks running around because people in the top guilds are bored out of their minds is ruining the experience of leveling up on P99

[sanforce]

What you are really saying is "I don't like TimesinkX; I prefer the older TimesinkY that fits my schedule".

FEEL THE PAIN OF CLASS R

Hey, it's everyone's game, I'm just voicing my opinion. If everyone else likes the current shitsock setup, more power to ya I guess.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think it's great that more people are starting to recognize how successful Class R has been. The complete segregation of the two playstyles has yielded excellent results.

That said, FFA spawns should be eliminated entirely, or moved only to repops. The goal of the system should be segregation, and any bleed over is inappropriate. As a weekday warrior, I also hate the weekend repops, but it is what it is. I think Class C ONLY, having proven the effort it is willing to put forth, should see the old variance with extended windows, but I've ridden that horse for a long time. Extended variances keep the game rolling for all hours and all players, and prevents the 36 hour adderall spam session.

[Raev]

Hey, it's everyone's game, I'm just voicing my opinion. If everyone else likes the current shitsock setup, more power to ya I guess.

No, I dislike the current setup to the point that I do not participate in the FFA-fest.

What I am trying to do is show you the parallels between your current situation (you would like to kill some dragons and get some pixels, only there is a giant artificial timesink created by the admins that you do not wish to traverse) and the situation of all the casual guilds one year ago. Your self-centered solution is to revert to the previous timesink which for whatever reason did not bother you, probably because for whatever reason you are able to play during the weekday or don't mind getting up at night.

Instead you got a proposal to make the FFA stuff occur during repops, thus completely eliminating all of the annoying timesinks (i.e. a great solution for people like me and Chest who hate all of this shit). You quickly did some mental math and realized that you would get fewer pixels, and immediately closed your mind to that idea. Instead your goal is any solution in which you get to keep your 70% or whatever of pixels and have to do no work. Which, considering the rhetoric of Class C about effort, is quite remarkable.

In other words I am attempting to show you the inconsistency and self-centered bias in your position.

[sanforce]

No, I dislike the current setup to the point that I do not participate in the FFA-fest.

What I am trying to do is show you the parallels between your current situation (you would like to kill some dragons and get some pixels, only there is a giant artificial timesink created by the admins that you do not wish to traverse) and the situation of all the casual guilds one year ago. Your self-centered solution is to revert to the previous timesink which for whatever reason did not bother you, probably because for whatever reason you are able to play during the weekday or don't mind getting up at night.

Instead you got a proposal to make the FFA stuff occur during repops, thus completely eliminating all of the annoying timesinks (i.e. a great solution for people like me and Chest who hate all of this shit). You quickly did some mental math and realized that you would get fewer pixels, and immediately closed your mind to that idea. Instead your goal is any solution in which you get to keep your 70% or whatever of pixels and have to do no work. Which, considering the rhetoric of Class C about effort, is quite remarkable.

In other words I am attempting to show you the inconsistency and self-centered bias in your position.

I actually said that I (and others) would probably be willing to revisit the repop mechanics (i.e. making them FFA including VP).

I (and others) would not necessarily be opposed to revisiting the mechanics of repops. That would require some programming changes from Rogean, but it doesn't seem like it would be difficult under the current setup.


I would be OK with VP being FFA on repops, but I doubt anyone in Class C would be willing to allow VP mobs to go on rotation. VP mobs are considered the best in the game, they should always have some competition surrounding them. However, if VP repops were FFA, a class R guild would have a pretty good shot at downing something while IB/TMO were concentrating on dragons with better loot.


But sadly:


Our only hope at this point seems to be a full Velious FFA release.

I just hope something is also done to mitigate socking.

[Raev]

I was referring to your 70/30 quote, but if you are willing to consider some repop action so much the better.

I would kind of like to see some discussion in Officer RNF, but I very much doubt anything will come of it. No one will consider anything that reduces their pixels (and that is true for both C and R).

[iruinedyourday]

Just make a mob spawn on rotation at an exact time so we can all have lives outside of this fucking game ffs

[Skydash]

What exactly is the argument against everything (VP included to those with means) being Rotated?

Rotate all mobs, evenly and fairly.

Why do these guilds get special treatment?

[Ravager]

What exactly is the argument against everything (VP included to those with means) being Rotated?

Rotate all mobs, evenly and fairly.

Why do these guilds get special treatment?

Their imaginary things wouldn't be special to them if everyone had them.

[Frieza_Prexus]

What exactly is the argument against everything (VP included to those with means) being Rotated?

Rotate all mobs, evenly and fairly.

Why do these guilds get special treatment?

A decision was made by the server operators that guilds willing to devote more time to the game should be commensurately rewarded. They felt that this created a more classic environment for the server. However, they also have recognized that some servers did have rotations and other protected raiding environments, albeit in a minority, so they have also taken measures to protect and promote both environments despite their incompatibility. Two servers in one, essentially.

[toolshed]

What exactly is the argument against everything (VP included to those with means) being Rotated?

Rotate all mobs, evenly and fairly.

Why do these guilds get special treatment?

You give the Class C guilds their mobs, or they will take everything for themselves.

It's a lot like the mafia. You pay 'insurance' so you have the privilege of not getting your shit pushed in.

The Class R guilds 'pay' the Class C guilds with VP so they can have the privilege of having random dragon world spawns

[Derubael]

Obviously this is going into RnF. I was scrolling back through the last 50 or so posts and it seems to have more or less become a flame war. I'll address these two points to clarify my post, then move on and hope someone listens:

Not to throw you under the bus but when I had a 1 on 1 with Sirken shortly after Genocidal Tendencies went full retard it was very clear to both of us and we agreed that the FFA cycle has been a complete failure from it's intended purpose. That was months ago. It's relatively disingenuous to say now months later "oh, we thought everyone was happy with things" when if you read these boards daily you'll see a completely different picture.

The rules aren't overly complicated. The only guild that couldn't figure it out imploded immediately because their leadership was some of the dumbest people to grace this server. The area that is most contentious is the FFA mobs that go late in window when no other potential spawns are available. That creates a bottleneck where all the stupid neckbeard shit happens. I'd expect if you removed the FFA cycle class C would QQ because they're so used to running those sets of mobs though.

We aren't able to read every forum thread that pops up in server chat or RnF regarding the raid scene. In particular, I was referring to server administration, who read even less than Sirken and I do. If you want change, it needs to be put in the raid forum with clear titles and specifically addressed points backed by multiple guilds. It's great to make 20 posts in some randomly titled server chat thread where you talk about what you'd personally like to see modified, but it's likely that won't even be seen, let alone taken seriously. PM's will be similarly ineffectual for about the same reason.

We put up the raid discussion forum for a number of reasons, one of which was to create a funnel to connect the senior staff with the common-man in the various raid guilds across the server. It's an easy, highly visible, and thankfully highly moderated method of mass communication from you to us. The idea being that the guild reps with the privilege of posting there have an obligation and a responsibility to represent not their own personal opinions, but the opinions of their guilds as a whole. It's incredibly important that everyone given the ability to post there speak with the voice of everyone in their guild without letting their own personal feelings sway their tone. This isn't aimed at you, chest, it's a reminder to everyone who has access to post there that they have a duty to their respective guilds to share the viewpoint of their guild as a whole.

Use it for it's intended purpose, and spend time talking with your respective guilds to get a firm understanding of what's desired. Put those thoughts into a forum post outlining the message you feel they wish to convey, and have everyone take a look to be sure you've gotten the correct tone, message, and meaning. Some of you may be surprised to find out how your members feel about the raid scene, and where the guild as a whole feels change is needed. Once that post has been edited to a majority's satisfaction, bring it to raid discussion. Find out where everyone agrees/disagrees. And don't just assume you already know - until you actually ask, you're doing a disservice to those who rely on you to lead.

I'm going to be blunt when I say this, but I want to emphasize the point. We don't give a single fuck about forum user Ella`Ella's opinion on the raid scene. But when he goes to the raid forum, we assume he's speaking with the voice of TMO as a whole, and that's something we do care about. The same goes for chest and BDA, or Nemce and AG. There simply isn't enough time for us as a staff to read through the thoughts and opinions of hundreds of forum users to gauge what people feel needs to be changed. We need you to do it for us in the proper place in a clear, concise way. Only then will your cries, screams, and occasional moan from Cucumbers be heard.

I didn't make my previous post out of ignorance or false information, and I'm not going to go into specifics about it's meaning because I'm not interested in sharing internal discussions among the senior staff, but I'm telling you very truthfully that if you want something to happen, that's the place it needs to be addressed, or it won't get addressed at all.

Yes, the FFA class has thus far been largely unsuccessful in it's intended purpose. I'm actually shocked that no class R guilds have moved to Class C, if for no other reason than to clean house on repop day when IB and TMO are locked in VP together. Maybe I'm misinformed, but I thought that guilds on the rotation all ended up with 2-3 mobs a piece each month (do some get more than others...? is there a class system within class r that dictates mob counts? I've kept my head in the sand for fear of seeing/hearing something I don't like and imploding into a black hole), which would mean that any Class R guild that snuck up to C would be practically guaranteed 8 Class C mobs a month (4 repops * 2 bag limit = 8, and I don't see either IB or TMO leaving PD to go fight over a Class C Inny). Have I completely lost it or is this a missed opportunity?

That being said, I don't think we're ready to completely do away with the "FFA" designation just yet (Rogean did take all that time to program in pretty green letters for it on raid.php), but maybe a modification is needed - higher bag limits, altered restriction timers, whatever - to turn "FFA" into a Class R-C training ground. Class R could work out a training wheel system for the guilds who may want to practice for Class C, or those who just want "class c-lite" - competing, but with guilds who play a little nicer than the die-hards in class C. Recent behavior seems to suggest there's at least some interest in this, if it's done properly. Think 18th century gentleman's duels instead of mad max beyond the thunderdome.

Also that part is just absurd. The entry point for this entire thing is Class R and that's been a model system. Only two guilds have utterly failed in class R (Dolj and GT) and it was only because they didn't want to honor the rotation system that 10 other guilds put in place and have maintained for months without issue.

MC is currently growing as has been welcomed to the rotation and as they grow they'll continue to be added to new rotation lists as they feel they're ready. Harmony was on the lists until they fell apart, Omni was welcomed and are thriving, even Supremacy and KWSN were approached but never mustered the force to kill raid targets.

Class C is the problem. They've always been the problem. Working with TMO and IB is like pulling fucking teeth. Anytime class C is involved in anything the entire situation usually turns to shit. I get it, they want pixels and they'll do anything to get them, that's their playstyle, but that mentality is only favored by 10-15% of the server and unfortunately that minority is allowed to dictate raid progression for the other 10+ guilds.

I have to completely disagree here, because I am blessed with the knowledge that comes from being an attentive and curious CSR. With my powers of omnipotence, I am able to hear the cries of nublets everywhere who cry in frustration at all the rules and their stipulations and exceptions. If I had a dime for every-time we've been asked to clarify this rule or affirm that interpretation, I'd retire to a small island in the pacific and name it Cabilis. Just glancing through my FAQ in the raid forum should highlight part of this problem - for a completely new guild who has never raided here, and may have little or no raiding experience in EQ, the plethora of rules, special circumstances, and odd exceptions can be bewildering. And that doesn't take into account the vague and somewhat misleading wording of the raid rules themselves - a product of the evolution of that rule-set, but an issue nonetheless.

You have the advantage of having been here from the beginning, knowing how everything used to work and watching as it's evolved over time. Your guild receives the benefit of that experience. But not everyone has that same privilege, and I can say definitively that this has caused problems - and even created outright hostile situations that could have been avoided - since the changes to the raid scene were made. This isn't an isolated incident, but something that has happened again and again. I have no desire to do away with all the rules that we pushed hard to implement in the first place. But I do think they need to be reviewed and simplified, or in some cases done away with completely.

In regards to saying Class C is the problem, I think that's a matter of perspective, and highly subjective. What is the problem with the raid scene right now? Different people are going to give wildly different answers - even within the same guild. I'm not going to argue because the simple answer is our opinions will always differ, but I think blaming all the problems of the raid scene on these two guilds is a narrow and biased answer - formulated by a long history of grievances (that aren't without merit, to be sure) - that attempts to fix the problem by smashing it with a hammer rather than taking the time to find a more complete solution.

This post went on for far too long, especially considering I didn't read all the posts after I made mine this morning - there would have likely been many more talking points had I looked at all the responses that didn't devolve into barely cohesive ranting (yes, I'm looking at you two, and no, don't you dare try the "but he started it" bs. go to your corners or I'll have sirken take away your dessert). The two big things I want to convey are universal, though, and chests posts' made an excellent segue into restating them.

The rules as they stand have plenty of room for improvement, and some aren't necessary at all. A more cohesive and simple ruleset would benefit everyone, particularly people brand new to the raid scene, and no - listing every variable for every situation so that people can look them up on the fly is not a viable alternative. There is such a thing as too much regulation and we have most definitely reached that point here on Project 1999. Lastly, if you're a raid forum person, talk to your guild, find out what they want, and bring it to us in the raid forum. Your guild members are counting on you to represent their hopes, dreams, and aspirations, so stop fucking that up by arguing in server chat and rnf all the time, and instead put that energy into some positive discussion where it really belongs.

<3 you all because you're easier to handle than red, even if that means you're a little less fun. Also some of you will actually read this post in it's entirety before starting to calling me stupid, rather than jumping straight to the flaming part. Good luck with your ideas, and let your voice be heard.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y4EabLuEuZA/T1b8RX0PBVI/AAAAAAAACTE/wl-GNcQ8i5M/s1600/vote-or-die-south-park.jpg

(diddy welcomes you to rnf)

[Gimp]

Please no on 96 hour windows again.

We just need a patch to get mob respawns off of the weekends so I can go back to getting hilariously drunk and watching football.

[arsenalpow]

Yes, the FFA class has thus far been largely unsuccessful in it's intended purpose. I'm actually shocked that no class R guilds have moved to Class C, if for no other reason than to clean house on repop day when IB and TMO are locked in VP together. Maybe I'm misinformed, but I thought that guilds on the rotation all ended up with 2-3 mobs a piece each month (do some get more than others...? is there a class system within class r that dictates mob counts? I've kept my head in the sand for fear of seeing/hearing something I don't like and imploding into a black hole), which would mean that any Class R guild that snuck up to C would be practically guaranteed 8 Class C mobs a month (4 repops * 2 bag limit = 8, and I don't see either IB or TMO leaving PD to go fight over a Class C Inny). Have I completely lost it or is this a missed opportunity?
No one gets a bigger share in Class R, it's as even as possible. Sneaking up to class C doesn't mean you always get juicy targets when TMO/IB are fighting it out in VP, your class C mobs for the week might be maestro, Gore, and Tal. So juicy. Also staying class R means you don't have to deal with the people in class C which is the better option tbh.


I have to completely disagree here, because I am blessed with the knowledge that comes from being an attentive and curious CSR. With my powers of omnipotence, I am able to hear the cries of nublets everywhere who cry in frustration at all the rules and their stipulations and exceptions. If I had a dime for every-time we've been asked to clarify this rule or affirm that interpretation, I'd retire to a small island in the pacific and name it Cabilis.
who are these people!? There's 10 class R guilds, and each guilds leadership understands the ins and outs of the raid system. That's the starting point for any guild and we don't withhold information. I'm not gonna say that you're full of it but show me some of these completely confused nublets that run to the staff looking for answers.

[Servellious]

Something def needs to be done to spread out the dragon spawns at the very least, only weekend spawns is getting old. The socking is also to much currently timers need to be extended. It's not that hard to have 1 tracker rotate with a bunch of other guildies.

[arsenalpow]

Something def needs to be done to spread out the dragon spawns at the very least, only weekend spawns is getting old. The socking is also to much currently timers need to be extended. It's not that hard to have 1 tracker rotate with a bunch of other guildies.

That's why i said to make it so all FFA mobs spawn simultaneously. Then unless someone really really really wants to fight over some choice mob it won't be an issue.

[toolshed]

who are these people!? There's 10 class R guilds, and each guilds leadership understands the ins and outs of the raid system. That's the starting point for any guild and we don't withhold information. I'm not gonna say that you're full of it but show me some of these completely confused nublets that run to the staff looking for answers.

I am one. I just started playing P99 in ~July with some old high school friends. There were 6 of us to begin with, but with friends and cool people we have met, the guild is growing a little to the point where we would want to do some raids in the future.

Now, I'm not an idiot, but the raid rules for engagement are so convoluted, I seriously do not understand them even after reading it multiple times. All I want to do is raid some stupid dragon in TD once in a while for some fun, and now I have to get 'classification' and shit? What?? Monster is up, my guild has the people for it, why can't I kill it? I seriously do not understand why this has to be so difficult.

I find the fact that the C/R classification system was put in for 'classic' reasons very interesting. I did not play on a blue server (came from Sullon Zek), so this is new to me: were there really GM-led 'rotations' between guilds?

This server just needs /guildwar to be enabled. If you are a Class-X guild, you should be at war with other Class-X guilds and just fight it out for spawns. Why are the GMs even getting involved? Just have FFA PvP and let the guilds figure it out. If they decide to burn each other to the ground, then at least there reason for it.

[Ravager]

All I want to do is raid some stupid dragon in TD once in a while for some fun...

This is exactly the reason the class system was made, so that guilds had an opportunity to raid some stupid dragon in TD once in a while for fun. Without it, we had 2-3 years of 1 guild locking down that dragon in TD.

[arsenalpow]

I am one. I just started playing P99 in ~July with some old high school friends. There were 6 of us to begin with, but with friends and cool people we have met, the guild is growing a little to the point where we would want to do some raids in the future.

Now, I'm not an idiot, but the raid rules for engagement are so convoluted, I seriously do not understand them even after reading it multiple times. All I want to do is raid some stupid dragon in TD once in a while for some fun, and now I have to get 'classification' and shit? What?? Monster is up, my guild has the people for it, why can't I kill it? I seriously do not understand why this has to be so difficult.

I find the fact that the C/R classification system was put in for 'classic' reasons very interesting. I did not play on a blue server (came from Sullon Zek), so this is new to me: were there really GM-led 'rotations' between guilds?

This server just needs /guildwar to be enabled. If you are a Class-X guild, you should be at war with other Class-X guilds and just fight it out for spawns. Why are the GMs even getting involved? Just have FFA PvP and let the guilds figure it out. If they decide to burn each other to the ground, then at least there reason for it.

Ok here's a basic rundown. By default you're a class R guild. Any guild that has yet to kill a Class C dragon or something VP is Class R. You can go engage any mob you want at anytime to start but killing a class C mob means you're class C until the staff says you aren't. You'll be grouped with the hardcore guilds (TMO and IB) and any class R mobs will be off limits to you.

Killing a class R mob means you're locked out of the next 2 R cycles of the mob (the R is for restricted) so for example let's say you killed Faydedar. The second you killed that Faydedar you'll see on the raid page Toolshed's Guild (2). Then Fay will cycle FFA, then C, then R again and it will say on the page Toolshed's Guild (1). Then fay will cycle FFA, then C, then R again and when it dies from that class R you'll see the lockout removed.

Class R is made up of almost 10 guilds at this point and instead of fighting over stuff like TMO and IB too we've come together and created a rotation. There's some minor rules involved but basically when it's your turn you have 3 hours to take care of business once the dragon spawns. After 6 hours the dragon is full on FFA and class C can come take your lunch money.

I came from SZ too I'm almost positive that you'll be able to figure it out.

[bigsykedaddy]

The point of p99 is to experience raid content.

I don't think the point of p99 is to experience raid content. I believe p99's purpose was to relive a classic EQ experience. Waiting in line for free loot is so far from classic. I also understand that being stuck in Kunark for 4 years is also not classic. Even if the server was locked in Kunark, I don't think people showing up to a raid target, with 0 competition and getting free raid loot is classic whatsoever. It is almost like people have never played MMO's before. There are always people who are on the top and who get all the best loot. They get all the best loot because they put in the most effort. You're way of thinking is like hey that guy over there has a mansion and a mercedes, U.S. Government I don't work nearly as hard as him but can I please have a free house and car if I wait in line? It just boggles my mind.

[Ravager]

You're way of thinking is like hey that guy over there has a mansion and a mercedes, U.S. Government I don't work nearly as hard as him but can I please have a free house and car if I wait in line? It just boggles my mind.

Your analogy has changed my way of thinking. Submitting my app to TMO so that I can get in line for my VP rots forthwith.

[sanforce]

Since this is now in RNF....

With all these freebie handouts going to Class R, I think the server name should be change to:

Project 1999(1): Communism in Kunark

[iruinedyourday]

I don't think the point of p99 is to experience raid content. I believe p99's purpose was to relive a classic EQ experience. Waiting in line for free loot is so far from classic. I also understand that being stuck in Kunark for 4 years is also not classic. Even if the server was locked in Kunark, I don't think people showing up to a raid target, with 0 competition and getting free raid loot is classic whatsoever. It is almost like people have never played MMO's before. There are always people who are on the top and who get all the best loot. They get all the best loot because they put in the most effort. You're way of thinking is like hey that guy over there has a mansion and a mercedes, U.S. Government I don't work nearly as hard as him but can I please have a free house and car if I wait in line? It just boggles my mind.

I think you comparing personal wealth in real life, to the loot in a video game is an absurd concept.

Its a video game, its a toy, we should play it. Not invest your life into it ffs.

The reason the person you are talking about over there has a Mercedes and a mansion is because he doesn't think that spending 12-24hrs waiting for pixels is worth his time. And he is absolutely right, if you disagree you are addicted to EQ and need help.

p99 is about re-creating the classic eq, and it does that very well! But there are things like, personal knowledge that give everyone a massive advantage over classic eq, that will make it never ever be the same as eq was in 1999 - let alone a myriad of other reasons.

Yes - we play this game - there is no reason to compete, there is no reason to not just simply enjoy it and kill raid mobs.

There is nothing cool about someone saying, 'raid on Saturday between 9 am and 11pm! Be there - don't go anywhere, don't plan anything, don't see the outside world! neglect your life, in the name of killing the Maestro of Rancor!'

gimi a break, you should be able to down cazic thule and still have a family that doesn't think you are a neck beard looser primed and ready to spend the later years of his life alone.

p99 exists so we can play eq the way eq used to be. Without all the new shitty art, the crappy zones that suck, the instances, the epic 2.0's

key word though.. PLAY eq.

just play the game, dont treat it like its real life.

End FFA end Mob windows. Make eqp99 a game that isnt a stupid life suck.

If at any moment you find yourself trying to apply the rules of economics and capitalism vs socialism to this game, stop and remember.. its a game.

[runlvlzero]

This thread is boring :(

[toolshed]

Ok here's a basic rundown.

Thanks a lot for this post.

So I would need to wait two kills in order to kill any class R mob, or just that particular one?

And what are 'bags'? 'two bags'

[feanan]

The thing is, in real eq, because expansions are always coming out, the casual scum DID eventually get to kill/raid the previous expansions, even if they got cock blocked for awhile.

Not sure why the choice should be join TMO/IB, or never kill stuff.

[arsenalpow]

Thanks a lot for this post.

So I would need to wait two kills in order to kill any class R mob, or just that particular one?

And what are 'bags'? 'two bags'

all class R mobs have the lockout, so lets say fay was class R today, and you killed it, you'd then be locked our for 2 cycles. You don't have to wait to do shit if you wanted to kill a class R mob right now, but you'd likely piss 10 guilds off so it's probably not in your best interest.

bag limit is during full repops. you're limited to 2 mobs total (mobs in VP don't count so class C could get as much VP as they can stomach and 2 mobs outside of vp)

[Ravager]

Thanks a lot for this post.

So I would need to wait two kills in order to kill any class R mob, or just that particular one?

And what are 'bags'? 'two bags'

You're only locked out of that mob. For example: You kill Class R Talendor, you can still kill any other Class R mob that you aren't locked out of. Also, you can kill Talendor when it's FFA. You can kill any mob when it's listed as FFA. You are just locked out of killing Talendor for the next 2 R cycles. The raid.php is almost always up to date with who is locked out of what and what mobs are in what cycle, so it's easy to see what's fair game.

The two bag limit only applies on simulated repop days (Serverwide Earthquake) or patch repop days (when there's a full repop of all raid mobs). Guilds are only allowed to kill 2 mobs for 12 hours after the repop.

It all really sounds more complicated than it really is.

[Derubael]

No one gets a bigger share in Class R, it's as even as possible. Sneaking up to class C doesn't mean you always get juicy targets when TMO/IB are fighting it out in VP, your class C mobs for the week might be maestro, Gore, and Tal. So juicy. Also staying class R means you don't have to deal with the people in class C which is the better option tbh.


This is what I figured, but I wasn't sure if some guilds got more than others. I know there's stipulations for guilds giving up mobs they won't be able to get to during their window, but wasn't sure how often that actually happened in practice. Even so, how many mobs does each Class-R get each month? It can't be more than 2 or 3. It seems like the ~8 that you would pickup would be worth it, even if you were horribly unlucky with class assignments on mobs. I'm pretty sure if someone works out the probability on this that guild would walk away with at least twice as many "priority spawns" and four times as many of everything else when averaged over x months. And I can see a large, organized guild like BDA or Taken having absolutely no problem downing 2 mobs each repop before TMO can hit VP.

More action for your guild, more pixels, more hate (for being class C). Seems like it would at least be worth a try, which is why I'm surprised it hasn't been attempted. I can understand not wanting to deal with TMO/IB, but really, neither of these hyper-competitive guilds is going to step foot outside VP until everything is dead. I can maybe see them forging some kind of agreement to leave VP up while they prevent the Class C spawns from being stolen, but it would only be a matter of time before one guild decided PD was more important than CT, and then that agreement would be out the window forever.


who are these people!? There's 10 class R guilds, and each guilds leadership understands the ins and outs of the raid system. That's the starting point for any guild and we don't withhold information. I'm not gonna say that you're full of it but show me some of these completely confused nublets that run to the staff looking for answers.

In regards to individual requests, I could reference quite a few that regularly come to the staff (even now) asking for clarification on various raid rules. While it doesn't happen quite as often as it used to, it's still a relatively common occurrence. The one that really stands out in recent memory, and illustrates the point well, was an incident between MC and Asgard. I believe this was more or less smoothed out (I was told it made it to the Class R forums, but I could be wrong), but by all accounts it was absolutely an error caused by a lack of understanding of a rule that we all assume everyone gets right away. That's the most pertinent example I can think of that happened recently, but it's far from the only one.

I think that the Class system itself is relatively easy to grasp, and is a necessity that isn't going anywhere anyway, but I really would like to see more simplified rules across the board (I'm the one that inevitably has to write them down somewhere, I swear this doesn't factor into wanting less rules!). As a quick example, we put the anti=poopsock rules in to end the sock and try to make it easier for non-zergcamp guilds to stand against the TMO's and IB's. Thus far, it's failed in every respect, and IMO is just a rule for the sake of being a rule (always a bad thing). Not only has it made no impact in guilds desire to compete, it hasn't done a single thing to curb socking - it's just moved the sock. Now instead of having a party in the VS pit every week, everyone shits up the entrance to KC. The drolvargs up front are literally swimming in your guys' excrement because we've ran out of places to put the socks.

That's just one example of a rule that, if changed/removed, would make things more simple to understand overall. Even within that seemingly simple rule there are 12 different setup locations for 12 different mobs - and damnit, you had better have read that before you go for your first target, because we all know what will happen if you haven't. I like to think that you guys get to every raid capable guild before they make their first attempt at a mob, but the reality is that it's just not possible, and shouldn't be necessary, in order for people to understand all the rules and their accompanying nuances.

That's just my thoughts - I'm all about letting you guys dictate your own direction for the raid scene lately, so I'll likely go with whatever the majority decides, but I really think some consideration needs to be taken with the ruleset as a whole. Also, spread out those spawns!

As a side note, I figured everyone would realize Seattle is on MNF tonight and skip over this pre-game blitz rant (I'm only half kidding, my previous post got way out of hand).

[Tankdan]

the raid rules for engagement are so convoluted, I seriously do not understand them even after reading it multiple times. All I want to do is raid some stupid dragon in TD once in a while for some fun, and now I have to get 'classification' and shit? What?? Monster is up, my guild has the people for it, why can't I kill it? I seriously do not understand why this has to be so difficult.


Because that monster would never be up for more than 2 minutes before pulled+killed and your guild would never have the slightest chance at ever killing it. These rotations are here to give your guild a chance.

[Ella`Ella]

...

Control + F = no results?!

[YendorLootmonkey]

I can maybe see them forging some kind of agreement to leave VP up while they prevent the Class C spawns from being stolen

Pretty much this. If there's one thing that IB and TMO hate more than losing a target to the opposing guild, it's filthy casuals getting pixels that the hardcores feel that they don't deserve.

[Derubael]

Pretty much this. If there's one thing that IB and TMO hate more than losing a target to the opposing guild, it's filthy casuals getting pixels that the hardcores feel that they don't deserve.

but if there's one thing TMO and IB love more than denying pixels to filthy casuals, it's breaking an agreement to down a VP dragon.

huehue

[mitic]

need u on red derudawg. lemma know how many bloomin onions u need

How dare you, don't you see they are discussing srs blue issues

[Ella`Ella]

but if there's one thing TMO and IB love more than denying pixels to filthy casuals, it's breaking an agreement to down a VP dragon.

huehue

... are you fucking kidding me, derubael?

[Ella`Ella]

We both know the only thing we truly love is PetitionQuest. Breaking VP agreements is only a means to that end.

[Servellious]

This is what I figured, but I wasn't sure if some guilds got more than others. I know there's stipulations for guilds giving up mobs they won't be able to get to during their window, but wasn't sure how often that actually happened in practice. Even so, how many mobs does each Class-R get each month? It can't be more than 2 or 3. It seems like the ~8 that you would pickup would be worth it, even if you were horribly unlucky with class assignments on mobs. I'm pretty sure if someone works out the probability on this that guild would walk away with at least twice as many "priority spawns" and four times as many of everything else when averaged over x months. And I can see a large, organized guild like BDA or Taken having absolutely no problem downing 2 mobs each repop before TMO can hit VP.

More action for your guild, more pixels, more hate (for being class C). Seems like it would at least be worth a try, which is why I'm surprised it hasn't been attempted. I can understand not wanting to deal with TMO/IB, but really, neither of these hyper-competitive guilds is going to step foot outside VP until everything is dead. I can maybe see them forging some kind of agreement to leave VP up while they prevent the Class C spawns from being stolen, but it would only be a matter of time before one guild decided PD was more important than CT, and then that agreement would be out the window forever.



In regards to individual requests, I could reference quite a few that regularly come to the staff (even now) asking for clarification on various raid rules. While it doesn't happen quite as often as it used to, it's still a relatively common occurrence. The one that really stands out in recent memory, and illustrates the point well, was an incident between MC and Asgard. I believe this was more or less smoothed out (I was told it made it to the Class R forums, but I could be wrong), but by all accounts it was absolutely an error caused by a lack of understanding of a rule that we all assume everyone gets right away. That's the most pertinent example I can think of that happened recently, but it's far from the only one.

I think that the Class system itself is relatively easy to grasp, and is a necessity that isn't going anywhere anyway, but I really would like to see more simplified rules across the board (I'm the one that inevitably has to write them down somewhere, I swear this doesn't factor into wanting less rules!). As a quick example, we put the anti=poopsock rules in to end the sock and try to make it easier for non-zergcamp guilds to stand against the TMO's and IB's. Thus far, it's failed in every respect, and IMO is just a rule for the sake of being a rule (always a bad thing). Not only has it made no impact in guilds desire to compete, it hasn't done a single thing to curb socking - it's just moved the sock. Now instead of having a party in the VS pit every week, everyone shits up the entrance to KC. The drolvargs up front are literally swimming in your guys' excrement because we've ran out of places to put the socks.

That's just one example of a rule that, if changed/removed, would make things more simple to understand overall. Even within that seemingly simple rule there are 12 different setup locations for 12 different mobs - and damnit, you had better have read that before you go for your first target, because we all know what will happen if you haven't. I like to think that you guys get to every raid capable guild before they make their first attempt at a mob, but the reality is that it's just not possible, and shouldn't be necessary, in order for people to understand all the rules and their accompanying nuances.

That's just my thoughts - I'm all about letting you guys dictate your own direction for the raid scene lately, so I'll likely go with whatever the majority decides, but I really think some consideration needs to be taken with the ruleset as a whole. Also, spread out those spawns!

As a side note, I figured everyone would realize Seattle is on MNF tonight and skip over this pre-game blitz rant (I'm only half kidding, my previous post got way out of hand).


Mob spawns really need to be spaced out raiding weekends only is getting pretty boring. Something needs to be done to stop poop socking

[Visual]

but if there's one thing TMO and IB love more than denying pixels to filthy casuals


You're the only one denying anyone of anything. Nobody was preventing smaller guilds from competing for raid mobs.

The staff on the other hand has set limitations to what we can do as players and when we can do it.

[arsenalpow]

You're the only one denying anyone of anything. Nobody was preventing smaller guilds from competing for raid mobs.

The staff on the other hand has set limitations to what we can do as players and when we can do it.

Mew mew mew I can't kill EVERY SINGLE DRAGON that spawns. Class C's finest y'all

[Sckrilla]

There's a whole lot of mad in this thread!

[kotton05]

Im so mad that I'm nice to class r only and won't work with class c. Even tho I'm online more than most of them it's not my play style

Oh really! That explains it! You're just mad to be mad.

[mrmop520]

Mob spawns really need to be spaced out raiding weekends only is getting pretty boring. Something needs to be done to stop poop socking

Yeah spreading the spawns out would be nice-super tired of missing every spawn b/c I did stuff over the weekend. Timer extensions did a great job stopping socking before, it could work again. It would halt some socking, although I imagine VS, PD etc will still have a slew of players waiting. It would also let the timers spread out over a month or so of pops.

[Geofizzle]

You're the only one denying anyone of anything. Nobody was preventing smaller guilds from competing for raid mobs.

The staff on the other hand has set limitations to what we can do as players and when we can do it.

That one should sting. Truth hurts.

Lol at chest's 8th grade comeback on that too. He mad. Thx for luls.

[Whirled]

50 warrior LF guild PST

[mitic]

50 warrior LF guild PST

Best post in this thread

[runlvlzero]

How I envision the P99 blue raid scene.

http://i.imgur.com/d0fxedM.jpg

Also thread less boring now :D

[Lojik]

I still think all these raid targets should spawn every day with +-4 hour variance and with significantly reduced loot tables. This way, at least people are killing stuff when logged in not just cothtrackbating or whatever it is people do.

[Ravager]

Since it's all not classic already anyway, the best solution would be to make the encounters a lot more difficult so that even the best geared zerg still stands a chance of wiping. Make the fears 95% unresistable. Make the hatelist a certain size and banish anyone after that number. Make the Golems and Giants assist the dragon instead of blindly chasing the shield bearer.

Dragons and Gods were supposed to be difficult encounters.

[kotton05]

What golems and giants?

[xexbis0]

Rabble rabble rabble. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the raid scene other than TMO are butthurt they're losing FFA mobs occasionally now. All class R guilds are experiencing more content than they did before. *Shocker special* since removing auto fire they're losing more mobs than before even though they love to ridicule people like Catherin.

Of course TMO is in here championing 48 hour or 96 (which is beyond dumb) variance where the most dedicated of R guilds can't really compete because we don't have 5 alts to camp out at zone lines anywhere.

Or "make everything FFA on sim repops". You're BSing if you think that IB and TMO wouldn't come to a "don't touch anything in VP til 2 hours after repop" agreement. That agreement will of course be class Rs fault for not competing in VP.

[Jfertal]

What golems and giants?

Reffering to golems in fear for a ct raid, and giants for vox and naggy?

[kotton05]

Giants do aggro they don't really assist but need cleared or to be occupied. Golems do assist CT... Or am I mistaken..

[Frieza_Prexus]

Rabble rabble rabble. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the raid scene other than TMO are butthurt they're losing FFA mobs occasionally now. All class R guilds are experiencing more content than they did before. *Shocker special* since removing auto fire they're losing more mobs than before even though they love to ridicule people like Catherin.

Yet, Class R is asking for FFA to be removed as well. Did you even read the thread, or are you just looking for an audience for your imagined slights?

Of course TMO is in here championing 48 hour or 96 (which is beyond dumb) variance where the most dedicated of R guilds can't really compete because we don't have 5 alts to camp out at zone lines anywhere.

If you'd read the thread, you'd note that the discussion on reinstating the variance is for Class C mobs only.

Or "make everything FFA on sim repops". You're BSing if you think that IB and TMO wouldn't come to a "don't touch anything in VP til 2 hours after repop" agreement. That agreement will of course be class Rs fault for not competing in VP.

The discussion isn't considering the removal of bag limits. Even if they were removed, no VP agreement for a hands off period would stand.

[xexbis0]

Yet, Class R is asking for FFA to be removed as well. Did you even read the thread, or are you just looking for an audience for your imagined slights?



If you'd read the thread, you'd note that the discussion on reinstating the variance is for Class C mobs only.



The discussion isn't considering the removal of bag limits. Even if they were removed, no VP agreement for a hands off period would stand.

1) Rabble wasn't directed at TMO specifically. I'm sure IB is annoyed but they're forum muzzled. Also, the R guilds crying are being greedy imo. It's a choice to care about competing for FFA mobs and the playing field is level currently. I'm also not sure if they'd like the consequences of whining into a purely C/R rotation and forcing certain guilds to play nice or play C.

2) What does a stupid long class C variance accomplish other than class R having to spend time tracking timers? I also did not get the impression they were being class C specific. I think you're stretching that point.

3) I don't know why most class R would slow down their rotation on important epic mobs for the occasional shot at gorenaire. This is also assuming the repops happen during peak hours.

I think there's much ado about nothing personally and that's directed at almost everyone in this thread, not just TMO.

[Frieza_Prexus]

1) Rabble wasn't directed at TMO specifically. I'm sure IB is annoyed but they're forum muzzled. Also, the R guilds crying are being greedy imo. It's a choice to care about competing for FFA mobs and the playing field is level currently. I'm also not sure if they'd like the consequences of whining into a purely C/R rotation and forcing certain guilds to play nice or play C.

2) What does a stupid long class C variance accomplish other than class R having to spend time tracking timers? I also did not get the impression they were being class C specific. I think you're stretching that point.

3) I don't know why most class R would slow down their rotation on important epic mobs for the occasional shot at gorenaire. This is also assuming the repops happen during peak hours.

I think there's much ado about nothing personally and that's directed at almost everyone in this thread, not just TMO.

The point of Class R is to completely segregate that population away from the play style of Class C. It absolutely should be play nice or play C.

Extending the Class C variance (especially with extended windows) prevents the spawns from being permanently clustered, unarguably reduces the all-too-familiar sock fests we have, and it encourages competition in the fairest way so far seen on the server: quick mobilization and proper organization.

Finally, Class R might be willing to take a hit in the wallet as you described because this is about what is the best policy for the server. Believe it or not, quite a few people are concerned with good policy even if it doesn't benefit them directly.

[Velerin]

I'd just like to experience a Norrath where dragons live for longer than 30 seconds, get to roam around a little, stretch their legs, burn down a few poor newbies passing thru the zone before they meet their demise and give out their lewts.

[xexbis0]

The point of Class R is to completely segregate that population away from the play style of Class C. It absolutely should be play nice or play C.

Extending the Class C variance (especially with extended windows) prevents the spawns from being permanently clustered, unarguably reduces the all-too-familiar sock fests we have, and it encourages competition in the fairest way so far seen on the server: quick mobilization and proper organization.

Finally, Class R might be willing to take a hit in the wallet as you described because this is about what is the best policy for the server. Believe it or not, quite a few people are concerned with good policy even if it doesn't benefit them directly.

1) No the point of the two classes is to help segregate them. There has to be a middle ground to allow for less or more depending on what you want to accomplish. That middle ground is FFA. Even then, it's still near impossible to compete for certain mobs against class C without massive trial and error/time sinks that even the most staunch of class R avoid.

2) Come on. You can't honestly believe that FFA mobs being less clustered is anything but a massive advantage to the bigger guilds already putting in the time. It'd force round the clock tracking for almost every mob and produce more competition for smaller FFA mobs.

3) I must have missed the part where 1200+ logging on during peak hours is terrible for the server. The population is somehow increasing as the content becomes more stale. You're hiding behind fancy words instead of looking at things objectively.

[paulgiamatti]

I'd just like to experience a Norrath where dragons live for longer than 30 seconds, get to roam around a little, stretch their legs, burn down a few poor newbies passing thru the zone before they meet their demise and give out their lewts.

This is technically already the case, although I realize 30 seconds is an exaggeration. I mean look, this is 14-year-old content. Nothing about these fights is particularly new to anyone, which is why it's so easy to lock them down and sock them into oblivion.

Without altering the code in an absurdly non-classic way, the only other solution is an absurdly non-classic set of rules governing the raid scene. Experiencing classic EverQuest as it actually was back in '99 - '01 is out of the question. Those days are over.

[Anichek]

Believe it or not, quite a few people are concerned with good policy even if it doesn't benefit them directly.

Generally speaking, I think that most of the people who have been involved in this process since inception are concerned with good policy that supports the server long term.

The difference between the ideologies of the policy is the same as the difference reflected in C vs. R play style.

The fact that we have the current agreement in place, forged by all parties (C and R), is a boon....and the fact that we all scrutinize it and want to make it better - for the life of the server and general population - is overall a good thing.

[Frieza_Prexus]

1) No the point of the two classes is to help segregate them. There has to be a middle ground to allow for less or more depending on what you want to accomplish. That middle ground is FFA. Even then, it's still near impossible to compete for certain mobs against class C without massive trial and error/time sinks that even the most staunch of class R avoid.

The inclusion of a middle ground quickly becomes a race to the bottom. FFA has already seen the tactics become just as, if not more, aggressive as the ones employed in Class C. FFA is instead becoming Class C with the option to dip on the rotation as well. It is anything but Class C training wheels.

2) Come on. You can't honestly believe that FFA mobs being less clustered is anything but a massive advantage to the bigger guilds already putting in the time. It'd force round the clock tracking for almost every mob and produce more competition for smaller FFA mobs.

FFA mobs should happen only on a repop if they do happen. Bag limits in effect for FFA repops afford the protection you seek. There is no advantage for larger guilds under this scheme. It simply eliminates the area where the otherwise segregated populations are forced to mingle with unpleasant results.

3) I must have missed the part where 1200+ logging on during peak hours is terrible for the server. The population is somehow increasing as the content becomes more stale. You're hiding behind fancy words instead of looking at things objectively.

I don't understand your point (aside from simply calling my argument empty). Are you implying that the increased server population is due only to the FFA class and that its elimination would cause them to flee?

[Ravager]

I was just generalizing, the golems in Trak's lair, for instance, shouldn't leave their master, especially when he's under attack. Giants should go to Naggy, All of Inny's minions should assist Inny and so on, make all encounters like CT, only take it a step further and make it so that mobs in raid zones can't be kited. Force guilds to kill every damn wurm to PD, now that is earning your pixels.

[Swifty]

RnF...

http://www.euroman.dk/Upload/euroman-dk/blogs/kristoffer/2014/september/6/1290708698_magic-chair.gif

[xexbis0]

The inclusion of a middle ground quickly becomes a race to the bottom. FFA has already seen the tactics become just as, if not more, aggressive as the ones employed in Class C. FFA is instead becoming Class C with the option to dip on the rotation as well. It is anything but Class C training wheels.



FFA mobs should happen only on a repop if they do happen. Bag limits in effect for FFA repops afford the protection you seek. There is no advantage for larger guilds under this scheme. It simply eliminates the area where the otherwise segregated populations are forced to mingle with unpleasant results.



I don't understand your point (aside from simply calling my argument empty). Are you implying that the increased server population is due only to the FFA class and that its elimination would cause them to flee?

Come on Xasten...let's not act like any class R guilds are racking up FFA CT, Inny, Trak kills. Why are some FFA mobs being competitive like class C a bad thing again? It's still infinitely less time consuming to the casual player over the insane variance we had before.

All of a sudden there's a huge issue with COTH ducking now that TMO isn't winning 60-70% of contested FFA mobs all of a sudden? You think you're David Stern/Adam Silver when you're really just Roger Goodell. You want to act like your little band aids are "best for everyone" when there's really no good will or equity built up to believe you.

The current system allows for any amount of immersion a guild / player may want to attempt. What can be any better than that?

[sanforce]

What can be any better than that?

Well, mechanics that discourage socking (instead of encourage) can be better than that, of course.

[Susano]

http://i.imgur.com/FSDJ4GD.jpg (http://imgur.com/FSDJ4GD)

http://i.imgur.com/PcLDJ0i.jpg (http://imgur.com/PcLDJ0i)

[Frieza_Prexus]

Come on Xasten...let's not act like any class R guilds are racking up FFA CT, Inny, Trak kills. Why are some FFA mobs being competitive like class C a bad thing again? It's still infinitely less time consuming to the casual player over the insane variance we had before.

All of a sudden there's a huge issue with COTH ducking now that TMO isn't winning 60-70% of contested FFA mobs all of a sudden? You think you're David Stern/Adam Silver when you're really just Roger Goodell. You want to act like your little band aids are "best for everyone" when there's really no good will or equity built up to believe you.

The current system allows for any amount of immersion a guild / player may want to attempt. What can be any better than that?

Right, because I've never once (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133596&highlight=ignoring+average) advocated a position on this that wasn't beneficial to TMO. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=880314&highlight=endangered#post880314)

You're right; what we have now IS a better policy than what the server had before. The point is that it can be improved. Class C and Class R should never interact in a raid environment. The interaction between the two has invariably devolved to the same extreme tactics that Class C employs. This is unfair to Class R.

If TMO isn't getting FFA kills now, how would the elimination of that bracket help TMO? Half of the old FFA mobs would be Class R, and the other half is still facing the same competition that had been previously denying us those mobs as before. With the same level of competition for half the resources, explain to me how I'm being self-interested here. I find it interesting that every time this discussion comes up, someone just has to chime in with "you're only doing this NOW because it benefits you." How many consistently themed posts from 2012 (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=669728&highlight=rotation#post669728) will I have to dig up before what I'm saying is motivated by something other than convenience? Even if I were strictly self-interested, try arguing the policy itself as opposed to the merits of the individuals suggesting it.

If I suggested that water is wet would you throw the same fit?

[Funkutron5000]

Define "wet".

[xexbis0]

Right, because I've never once (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133596&highlight=ignoring+average) advocated a position on this that wasn't beneficial to TMO. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=880314&highlight=endangered#post880314)

You're right; what we have now IS a better policy than what the server had before. The point is that it can be improved. Class C and Class R should never interact in a raid environment. The interaction between the two has invariably devolved to the same extreme tactics that Class C employs. This is unfair to Class R.

If TMO isn't getting FFA kills now, how would the elimination of that bracket help TMO? Half of the old FFA mobs would be Class R, and the other half is still facing the same competition that had been previously denying us those mobs as before.

If I suggested that water is wet would you throw the same fit?

You can re-read that and have that make any logical sense in your mind? So class C should only have the privilege of choice to allow things to devolve into extreme tactics? That isn't in your best interest? The difference between C and R is so vastly different. Why is a middle ground such anathema to class C or class R? You're basically advocating removing the "room to grow" space.

Also, somehow we've gone from sim-FFAs to no interaction between the two in a matter of hours. You can't even keep the story straight.

[Frieza_Prexus]

You can re-read that and have that make any logical sense in your mind? So class C should only have the privilege of choice to allow things to devolve into extreme tactics? That isn't in your best interest? The difference between C and R is so vastly different. Why is a middle ground such anathema to class C or class R? You're basically advocating removing the "room to grow" space.

I've already explained this. FFA targets devolve to the same race and situation that exists in Class C. The reason guilds are Class R is NOT because they want to grow into C; it is because the play style of Class C is incompatible with the play style of Class R. Yes, eliminating the FFA category will be a negative for guilds that want to use it as training wheels. However, that is mostly academic as what we've seen instead is guilds using Class R's rotations to be protected from facing the Class C guilds part of the time, and then using FFA to compete as a Class C guild in all but name only.

Operating consistently at such a hardcore level should create a de facto Class C guild, and it frustrates the purposes of the system when such guilds never progress beyond the R category. Such a guild is growing, but it is not moving on. Therein lies the issue. FFA does not seem to be serving its purpose, thus its elimination is likely a net benefit.

Also, somehow we've gone from sim-FFAs to no interaction between the two in a matter of hours. You can't even keep the story straight.

Hardly, I said that FFA spawns, if they exist at all, should only be on repops. Flexibility does equate to inconsistency.

[sanforce]

Class C mobs should have extended variance to spread mobs out, prevent socking, and encourage a somewhat legitimate race.

Class R mobs should have 0 variance because they are freebie handouts and there is really no point in varying the spawn times.

FFA mobs should be deleted, because us kids can't get along.

[xexbis0]

I've already explained this. FFA targets devolve to the same race and situation that exists in Class C. The reason guilds are Class R is NOT because they want to grow into C; it is because the play style of Class C is incompatible with the play style of Class R. Yes, eliminating the FFA category will be a negative for guilds that want to use it as training wheels. However, that is mostly academic as what we've seen instead is guilds using Class R's rotations to be protected from facing the Class C guilds part of the time, and then using FFA to compete as a Class C guild in all but name only.

Operating consistently at such a hardcore level should create a de facto Class C guild, and it frustrates the purposes of the system when such guilds never progress beyond the R category. Such a guild is growing, but it is not moving on. Therein lies the issue. FFA does not seem to be serving its purpose, thus its elimination is likely a net benefit.



Hardly, I said that FFA spawns, if they exist at all, should only be on repops. Flexibility does equate to inconsistency.

Are you that hardheaded? If any guilds had the resources to compete in VP they would move up. Moving to class C without the keys is asinine. I'm sure if TMO / IB offered an R guild keys to move up, they'd gladly give it a shot. Surely you can see the bottleneck.

[Turp]

I'm sure there are a lot less raid related /petitions...

Lol, will have to call BS on that .
Since the rules it HAS to be more work. They have to babysit Class mobs and look at any rule breaking (tons of rules + no FULL rule set posted = petition mess).
Add in the factor of repops ,so a lot more mobs to deal with. Equals even more mess.
Plus all the class C drama that springs up.

Behind the scenes , petition wars are huge...
I bet there are more petitions now than when it was just a few guilds raiding pre rules.

[khanable]

All of a sudden there's a huge issue with COTH ducking now that TMO isn't winning 60-70% of contested FFA mobs all of a sudden?

Actually, class C approached class R folk about ending CoTH ducking as soon as it sprung up.

Getting 12 entities to agree on something is like trying to get 12 cats inside one box using a piece of string and a double headed dildo.

Damn near impossible.

[Anichek]

Actually, class C approached class R folk about ending CoTH ducking as soon as it sprung up.

Getting 12 entities to agree on something is like trying to get 12 cats inside one box using a piece of string and a double headed dildo.

Damn near impossible.

Use a 19" long, 5" diameter one with a suction cup on the end. Works for some people - but you gotta keep like a gallon of lube on hand when you are packing that much heat.

I heard a person can fetch that combo on Amazon, and they deliver anywhere but don't try to hit up a UPS store on Saturday unless you check the hours and know of any potential construction detours before leaving.

[khanable]

I heard a person can fetch that combo on Amazon

poor Sadad (unexpected dildo)

[Rooj]

Lol, will have to call BS on that .

As far as I know, there's been little to no problems with the Class R rotation system...

[Juevento]

As far as I know, there's been little to no problems with the Class R rotation system...

Aside from BDA being a bunch of pussies and not taking our 1/3rd of R mobs...

To me that's a huge issue.

Also make raid zones PvP. No more socking.

[Rooj]

I was referring to stuff being /petitioned

[sanforce]

No more socking.

Yes! You are the first Class R that I've seen say this. Now drive it into their heads.

[Ravager]

I think there should be more socking. The mobs should be invulnerable to all but the ones who were in the zone the longest.

[arsenalpow]

Yes! You are the first Class R that I've seen say this. Now drive it into their heads.

it's all socking to a degree. Camping 80 characters at the entrance of VP sitting at the character select screen waiting for a batphone is just as damning as actively sitting there on the account while fucking around on netflix while you wait. You can't condemn one and pretend the other "tactics" are perfectly sane.

[Juevento]

FYI in Archeage if someone is in your way in a PvP zone, you can just kill them. It works nice.

Should do the same thing here.

[sanforce]

it's all socking to a degree. Camping 80 characters at the entrance of VP sitting at the character select screen waiting for a batphone is just as damning as actively sitting there on the account while fucking around on netflix while you wait. You can't condemn one and pretend the other "tactics" are perfectly sane.

Well - I guess if you want to play like that. I think 1 person from a guild tracking over a long window is superior to 1 tracker and ~10+ FTErs over a 16 hour window.

[sanforce]

^ For Class C (and maybe FFA?). Class R should have 0 variance.

[arsenalpow]

^ For Class C (and maybe FFA?). Class R should have 0 variance.

im fine with a degree of variance across the board. What happens if another Dolj comes on the scene and there's no variance. Will create a shitty scene.

[Ravager]

im fine with a degree of variance across the board. What happens if another Dolj comes on the scene and there's no variance. Will create a shitty scene.

Don't you know the GM's enforce the rotation now? Or at least they should since they use it for punishments.