View Full Version : How much native american influence you think america had as a democracy and culture?
To me it seems kind of obvious, but i havent digged into it alot.
The things that triggers questions in my mind about just how much influence the native american way of living had on new arrivals in North America.
- Gender equality, 200 years in advance:
I dont know how it is in the US, but here in Canada one of the first legitimization of women being legally allowed to walk around bare breasted is in the 2000s.
Iroquois, for example, were a matriarchal society. Where the leader of the tribe was a woman. Western women fought for the right to vote in the 20th century, only getting it in the 1940s in Quebec where i live.
- The way some native american tribes resolved problems:
all sitting around and discussing things, where everyone is allowed to participate makes me think of parliaments and congress.
- The sexual freedom of women who could fuck one guy, decide it wouldnt work and pick another husband, which would be unthinkable in women-oppressed Europe and western culture.
Im forgetting stuff, but just to start things off. I think its deplorable that native americans often get this shit rap about them just living in shitholes and contributed nothing to civilization. Back then they wouldnt even call them civilized.
Fact is, when spaniards entered tenochtitlan (the space where modern-day Mexico city lies) they had never seen anything like it. 100k population city on a network of island blocks where farming produced all kinds of weird fruits and vegetables.
I don't think Native Americans get a bad rap, at least not in public schools; they tend to be praised a lot in the school systems. Anyway, Robert Pirsig has some interesting ideas about this in his book 'Lila' that I'm reading now. He thinks that American culture (specifically USA) is part European and part Native American, and that we can see the Native American influences, which are often overlooked, by contrasting with the European influences. One poignant example he gives is the classic Western movie protagonist, whose cool demeanor, taciturn behavior, sudden violence when provoked, and various other characteristics strongly evoke Native Americans, but we never associate this archetype with Native Americans because it was a subconscious thing and because Native Americans were demonized publicly. He says that this archetype developed from mountain men and pioneers who admired and took after Native Americans, and who then later transferred their behaviors to these Western movie heroes and the like. My recounting of this isn't complete or totally accurate, though, so I would just read the book.
Friday
09-02-2010, 08:13 PM
1st week of College History 1301?
1st week of College History 1301?
Aww are you sore about that reply in that other thread? :(
You can always enlighten us with your knowledge instead of being a smart-ass!
PhelanKA
09-02-2010, 08:30 PM
1st week of College History 1301?
More like a whole life spent in Quebec hating white people and Western culture. He's the same kinda moron that will rant about how horrible the US is and refer to Iran as peaceful and tolerant in the same breath.
He's a bleeding heart liberal troll at it's finest.
Toony
09-02-2010, 08:34 PM
How much native american influence you think america had as a democracy and culture?
Republic.
More like a whole life spent in Quebec hating white people and Western culture. He's the same kinda moron that will rant about how horrible the US is and refer to Iran as peaceful and tolerant in the same breath.
He's a bleeding heart liberal troll at it's finest.
Actually if you would know the history of Quebec, youd know we are more liberal here in Quebec because we used to be called "White ******s" by english canadians and told to "speak white". Theres a parallel to be made with how blacks were treated historically in the states and french canadians, although the abuse was milder. So that kinda puts things in perspective for some of us, and yes we have views on american racism as well. Thats not the purpose of this thread though, so i wont answer any more personal attacks.
PhelanKA
09-02-2010, 08:43 PM
Actually if you would know the history of Quebec, youd know we are more liberal here in Quebec because we used to be called "White ******s" by english canadians and told to "speak white". Theres a parallel to be made with how blacks were treated historically in the states and french canadians, although the abuse was milder. So that kinda puts things in perspective for some of us, and yes we have views on american racism as well. Thats not the purpose of this thread though, so i wont answer any more personal attacks.
I guess what I meant to say is: You're an idiot. Shut the fuck up. You don't know shit about Native Americans. Sitting around talking to resolve disputes? Yeah, the European colonists did the same thing. It's called "Diplomacy", dipshit. And I find it hilarious that you think the Iriqois and Aztec were some sort of progressive cultures. Get a clue. They sacrificed babies to the fucking sun.
I guess what I meant to say is: You're an idiot. Shut the fuck up. You don't know shit about Native Americans. Sitting around talking to resolve disputes? Yeah, the European colonists did the same thing. It's called "Diplomacy", dipshit. And I find it hilarious that you think the Iriqois and Aztec were some sort of progressive cultures. Get a clue. They sacrificed babies to the fucking sun.
I didnt say they were perfect. Does Europe burning a hundred thousand women during the 2 centuries the witch craze lasted mean that Bartolomé de las Casas (chronicler of human rights abuses by spanish conquistadors) never existed?
I wont get dragged into a flame war, although i kind of expected it and why i posted in R&F. If you think that native americans in general were evil or whatever, feel free to post why you think they were baby-murdering sun worshiping heathens.
PhelanKA
09-02-2010, 08:55 PM
I didnt say they were perfect. Does Europe burning a hundred thousand women during the 2 centuries the witch craze lasted mean that Bartolomé de las Casas (chronicler of human rights abuses by spanish conquistadors) never existed?
We all fall short the glory of God...
Seriously though, that is the point. No civilization or country or person will ever meet your criteria. So why give a fuck? Get yours and get out, man. Trying to fix the world will just make you hate it all the more. Individual freedom is ubiquitous (see also: anarchy). It's just riskier in some regions than others ;)
Jimes
09-02-2010, 08:59 PM
Republic.
There's always someone who has to chime in with this. You realize that it is possible to have more than one word which can be used to describe a government, right?
Also, when i mean America... i mean... America, not the united states.
PhelanKA
09-02-2010, 09:18 PM
On a lighter note: If it weren't for the Native Americans we wouldn't have tacos, spaghetti sauce, or the Irish Potato Famine. Fuckin Irish.
And one thing you and I could probably agree on, Taxi is that the US handling of Native Americans was probably the worst and most calculated case of genocide in modern history before WWII. There was absolutely no reason for how they were treated and they deserve much better than what they received. It is a horrible black mark upon the history of the US that still has deep and lasting impact to this day. Just visit a reservation and you'll know what I mean. My aunt works at Fort Apachi as a nurse (My father's side of the family is Miami tribe). The conditions are appalling. 30% unemployment, rampant alcoholism, 1/10 teengers committing suicide, and their unemployment/welfare benefits are substandard to say the least in comparison to the national unemployment/welfare system. It's inexcusable.
Toony
09-02-2010, 10:17 PM
There's always someone who has to chime in with this. You realize that it is possible to have more than one word which can be used to describe a government, right?
Federal constitutional republic more specifically.
Toony
09-02-2010, 10:18 PM
There's always someone who has to chime in with this. You realize that it is possible to have more than one word which can be used to describe a government, right?
Oh and btw, great second post.
Dukat
09-02-2010, 10:26 PM
Only in R&F do you find people flaming each other over history HW... lol
Friday
09-02-2010, 10:39 PM
Aww are you sore about that reply in that other thread? :(
You can always enlighten us with your knowledge instead of being a smart-ass!
I have revisionist views when it comes to English/Spanish/French occupation of the Americas. I'm not Jaded about it thought. The invasion of North America was the best thing since rain-proof teepee's!
Noleafclover
09-02-2010, 11:31 PM
Taxi: How much native american influence you think america had as a democracy and culture?
Threeve.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 12:54 PM
More like a whole life spent in Quebec hating white people and Western culture. He's the same kinda moron that will rant about how horrible the US is and refer to Iran as peaceful and tolerant in the same breath.
+1
He's a bleeding heart liberal troll at it's finest.
+1
Republic.
+1 Welcome to level 50
I guess what I meant to say is: You're an idiot. Shut the fuck up. You don't know shit about Native Americans. Sitting around talking to resolve disputes? Yeah, the European colonists did the same thing. It's called "Diplomacy", dipshit. And I find it hilarious that you think the Iriqois and Aztec were some sort of progressive cultures. Get a clue. They sacrificed babies to the fucking sun.
+1
No roads, primitive economics, inadequate primitive farming, no wheels, no written language, scalpings, ritual human sacrifice, rivers of blood flowing down the steps of aztec pyramids as still living hearts are cut out of the victim's chests, ball games where one team is ritually slaughtered at the end of the match.
These are but cross section of the customs of the noble native.
Jimes
09-03-2010, 01:20 PM
Interesting. Cortés' men wrote of how when they first saw Tenochtitlan it was far more grand than anything they had ever seen in Spain. To call them primitive is basically just a baseless insult, because they had a highly developed culture. But of course, it wasn't Western, therefore that means it they are savages in the minds of the ethnocentric.
No roads, primitive economics, inadequate primitive farming, no wheels, no written language, scalpings, ritual human sacrifice, rivers of blood flowing down the steps of aztec pyramids as still living hearts are cut out of the victim's chests, ball games where one team is ritually slaughtered at the end of the match.
These are but cross section of the customs of the noble native.
???
Erm, well, aside from the fact that you seem to be lumping several different peoples together...
Figure 1: The Mayans built large paved roads between ancient cities that still exist today and can be traveled on. (http://www.doctorbeer.com/jaguarking/gallery/mayan_sacbe.jpg) Other peoples would have had well-traveled roads as well.
Figure 2: This is the Mayan writing system. (http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/107p11mayanwritingsample.gif) The Mexica had a similar system, and the Olmec probably had one as well, though no evidence of such has turned up yet.
Agriculture was well-developed within Aztec society. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec#Agriculture) It was probably more efficient and less work than US agriculture today, as a matter of fact. At least they wouldn't be caught having to turn all the excess corn into liquor in a desperate attempt to not go bankrupt as the surplus in the market causes prices to drop.
Important war captives were primarily used as sacrifices. Babies were not used. For example, 'los danzantes' (the dancers) are a large group of carvings representing war captives in various states of sacrifice, and each have a specific name written in hieroglyphics. Kings and nobility would have been much more likely to be sacrificed than any other person. They would have also been forced to participate (and lose) in the ritual ball games where the losers were killed.
The Europeans, of course, eventually swooped in, spread their plagues, took the gold they saw, burned nearly all the manuscripts in an attempt to exorcise the devil from Mesoamerica, converted or enslaved or killed the natives, and left behind the broken remnants of a people that most today consider vicious, baby-slaughtering, bloody-minded, uncivilized inferior savages with no proper form of society to be seen, who only know how to do war whoops and say things like, "Me big chief!" while beating their chests when they're not dismembering innocent children to appease their barbarian gods.
Bodeanicus
09-03-2010, 02:46 PM
???
Erm, well, aside from the fact that you seem to be lumping several different peoples together...
Figure 1: The Mayans built large paved roads between ancient cities that still exist today and can be traveled on. (http://www.doctorbeer.com/jaguarking/gallery/mayan_sacbe.jpg) Other peoples would have had well-traveled roads as well.
Figure 2: This is the Mayan writing system. (http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/107p11mayanwritingsample.gif) The Mexica had a similar system, and the Olmec probably had one as well, though no evidence of such has turned up yet.
Agriculture was well-developed within Aztec society. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec#Agriculture) It was probably more efficient and less work than US agriculture today, as a matter of fact. At least they wouldn't be caught having to turn all the excess corn into liquor in a desperate attempt to not go bankrupt as the surplus in the market causes prices to drop.
Important war captives were primarily used as sacrifices. Babies were not used. For example, 'los danzantes' (the dancers) are a large group of carvings representing war captives in various states of sacrifice, and each have a specific name written in hieroglyphics. Kings and nobility would have been much more likely to be sacrificed than any other person. They would have also been forced to participate (and lose) in the ritual ball games where the losers were killed.
The Europeans, of course, eventually swooped in, spread their plagues, took the gold they saw, burned nearly all the manuscripts in an attempt to exorcise the devil from Mesoamerica, converted or enslaved or killed the natives, and left behind the broken remnants of a people that most today consider vicious, baby-slaughtering, bloody-minded, uncivilized inferior savages with no proper form of society to be seen, who only know how to do war whoops and say things like, "Me big chief!" while beating their chests when they're not dismembering innocent children to appease their barbarian gods.
He's a fucking idiot. You can't fix stupid.
Straif
09-03-2010, 02:47 PM
too lazy to read everything...
The idea of a confederation of provinces where one federal government controls the states was stolen from the Iroquois league by the dastardly Europeans whom came to the US.
eqdruid76
09-03-2010, 03:33 PM
Taxi: How much native american influence you think america had as a democracy and culture?
Threeve.
Let's see what you wagered....
$Texas.....
No roads, primitive economics, inadequate primitive farming, no wheels, no written language, scalpings, ritual human sacrifice, rivers of blood flowing down the steps of aztec pyramids as still living hearts are cut out of the victim's chests, ball games where one team is ritually slaughtered at the end of the match.
These are but cross section of the customs of the noble native.
See this is exactly the shit rap ive been talking about, ignorant racist people who perpetuate myths.
Mayas had a written language:
Aztecs had a written language:
http://alina_stefanescu.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341ce39f53ef0120a6227948970b-pi
These languages have roots in the Olmec language (that was also written)
No farming? This is what tenochtitlan looked like when spaniards first came there, they had never seen any city like it, even along European references:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3405/3298822452544b67aef5.jpg
The mathematics of the mayans was more advanced in the 1300s than it was in europe.
One other thing, is that Europeans had this wealth of culture they could draw on to prop up their own on, arab medecine, arab optics, chinese technology, greek material translated by arab scholars. Spain was basically a medieval shithole before the arabs came and raised the level of culture there.
Im not denying that the aztec for example had ritual sacrifices, but what else
could you call burning witches at the stake but ritual sacrifice? A hundred thousand women in 2 centuries, do we reject Europe as primitive as a whole because part of their populace engaged in barbaric behavior? The hold that the religious caste had on aztec population was probably very similar to the hold european religious caste had on european population around the same time. This is just plain racism, double standards.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 07:26 PM
He's a fucking idiot. You can't fix stupid.
Ad Hominem attacks: the first resort of those who have their ideas challenged and who have no real point. Thanks for exposing your nerdrage.
So PERHAPS I was mistake about ONE of the things I said. What about all the others? Are you going to the "whats a little human sacrifice between friends argument" ?
And by all means, all you members of the Multicultural Orthodox Church, go ahead and throw out the "germ warfare" accusation referring to supposed smallpox blankets. I'd love for you to expose more of your embicility.
You do know that germs weren't discovered as the cause of disease until the late 1800s right?
For the comment about burning witches. Christianity is barbaric, just like the religion it sprang from, and NEITHER is European in origin.
Today we live in an age almost exactly like that of Galileo. The Earth being the center of the universe has been replaced with other nonsense, except this time most people believing the nonsense is VERY dangerous.
Ad Hominem attacks: the first resort of those who have their ideas challenged and who have no real point. Thanks for exposing your nerdrage.
So PERHAPS I was mistake about ONE of the things I said. What about all the others? Are you going to the "whats a little human sacrifice between friends argument" ?
And by all means, all you members of the Multicultural Orthodox Church, go ahead and throw out the "germ warfare" accusation referring to supposed smallpox blankets. I'd love for you to expose more of your embicility.
You do know that germs weren't discovered as the cause of disease until the late 1800s right?
For the comment about burning witches. Christianity is barbaric, just like the religion it sprang from, and NEITHER is European in origin.
Today we live in an age almost exactly like that of Galileo. The Earth being the center of the universe has been replaced with other nonsense, except this time most people believing the nonsense is VERY dangerous.
So all barbarity in Europe all stemmed from religion? And if christianity wasnt an european religion when it spawned, it sure became one once the medieval age came about. Again, double standards. As if Europe doesnt have a wide range of barbarity to pick from to try to paint all europeans as primitive and bloodthirsty. Im sure some hardcore muslim fanatics are doing just that as a recruiting tool.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 07:39 PM
???
Important war captives were primarily used as sacrifices. Babies were not used. For example, 'los danzantes' (the dancers) are a large group of carvings representing war captives in various states of sacrifice, and each have a specific name written in hieroglyphics. Kings and nobility would have been much more likely to be sacrificed than any other person. They would have also been forced to participate (and lose) in the ritual ball games where the losers were killed.
You conveniently left out the fact that their wars were staged SOLELY to acquire more people to sacrifice. They weren't wars of conquest.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 07:41 PM
So all barbarity in Europe all stemmed from religion?
I have to chuckle. the arguing style of some here is pretty funny.
I said nothing of the kind. Why you're asking this, I have no idea.
I have to chuckle. the arguing style of some here is pretty funny.
I said nothing of the kind. Why you're asking this, I have no idea.
Its because you said native american cultures were primitive and barbaric. Of course we get from that, that they were primitive and barbaric compared to Europe.
So when you say lol, christianity isnt european, i saw it as a way to dodge my point that europe also had its share of atrocities, and then if it had its share of atrocities, why arent you applying that standard you apply to native american cultures and brand the whole of europe barbarian and primitive?
You conveniently left out the fact that their wars were staged SOLELY to acquire more people to sacrifice. They weren't wars of conquest.
After saying that native americans had no written language, you have zero credibility. If you told me there was sand at the beach, id go check to make sure.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 07:50 PM
Interesting. Cortés' men wrote of how when they first saw Tenochtitlan it was far more grand than anything they had ever seen in Spain. To call them primitive is basically just a baseless insult, because they had a highly developed culture. But of course, it wasn't Western, therefore that means it they are savages in the minds of the ethnocentric.
Astronomy, yes, there is no doubt that they were advanced in Astronomy.
But hey guys, don't listen to me just go watch "An Inconvenient Truth " again for the 100th time and cheer your ineligible prezidint
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 07:53 PM
After saying that native americans had no written language, you have zero credibility. If you told me there was sand at the beach, id go check to make sure.
If you're talking about heiroglyphics, then I may have to concede, but then you'll hit me with the "Olmecs were black" theory of the Afrocentrists who say "just look at their lips and noses on the carvings."
If you're talking about heiroglyphics, then I may have to concede, but then you'll hit me with the "Olmecs were black" theory of the Afrocentrists who say "just look at their lips and noses on the carvings."
Nah, ill just hit you with the mayan alphabet
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8946/mayanalphabet.jpg
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 07:56 PM
Its because you said native american cultures were primitive and barbaric. Of course we get from that, that they were primitive and barbaric compared to Europe.
So when you say lol, christianity isnt european, i saw it as a way to dodge my point that europe also had its share of atrocities, and then if it had its share of atrocities, why arent you applying that standard you apply to native american cultures and brand the whole of europe barbarian and primitive?
I say that in response to the absurdity that the natives were a peaceful, advanced, progressive civilization, the kind of nonsense that ultra-liberal scholars made a living out of ever since it became a fad in the late 1880s
And as much as id like to keep up this enlighting and enriching debate going all nite, im off to enrich myself playing some heroes of newerth.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 07:58 PM
Nah, ill just hit you with the mayan alphabet
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8946/mayanalphabet.jpg
The Mayan alphabet eh?
We will see in about 28 months just how advanced their calendar was won't we?
Harrison
09-03-2010, 07:59 PM
Lol what a terrible game, balance? No such thing.
"Patch #1 X is overpowered"
"Patch #2 X is nerfed to shit, and Y is now untouchable"
"Patch #3 X and Y are now nerfed, but X is rebuffed to playable levels"
"Patch #4 X and Y are tweaked more, and now Z is overpowered."
Droxx
09-03-2010, 08:01 PM
Lol what a terrible game, balance? No such thing.
"Patch #1 X is overpowered"
"Patch #2 X is nerfed to shit, and Y is now untouchable"
"Patch #3 X and Y are now nerfed, but X is rebuffed to playable levels"
"Patch #4 X and Y are tweaked more, and now Z is overpowered."
Dear Idiot,
This entire thread is about Native American influence on American (and other) cultures.
Please feel free to take your idiot trolling elsewhere.
Harrison
09-03-2010, 08:03 PM
Dear Idiot,
This thread is in the rants and flames section. I will do whatever the fuck I want.
Please feel free to take your bloody vagina elsewhere.
The Mayan alphabet eh?
We will see in about 28 months just how advanced their calendar was won't we?
LOL...
Those NY bagels heh? Well see just how good those NY bagels are when you get a flat tire down in Florida!
I challenge anyone to try to decide which statement is the most absurd and non-sensical.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 08:07 PM
???
Erm, well, aside from the fact that you seem to be lumping several different peoples together...
Figure 1: The Mayans built large paved roads between ancient cities that still exist today and can be traveled on. (http://www.doctorbeer.com/jaguarking/gallery/mayan_sacbe.jpg) Other peoples would have had well-traveled roads as well.
Figure 2: This is the Mayan writing system. (http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/107p11mayanwritingsample.gif) The Mexica had a similar system, and the Olmec probably had one as well, though no evidence of such has turned up yet.
Agriculture was well-developed within Aztec society. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec#Agriculture) It was probably more efficient and less work than US agriculture today, as a matter of fact. At least they wouldn't be caught having to turn all the excess corn into liquor in a desperate attempt to not go bankrupt as the surplus in the market causes prices to drop.
Important war captives were primarily used as sacrifices. Babies were not used. For example, 'los danzantes' (the dancers) are a large group of carvings representing war captives in various states of sacrifice, and each have a specific name written in hieroglyphics. Kings and nobility would have been much more likely to be sacrificed than any other person. They would have also been forced to participate (and lose) in the ritual ball games where the losers were killed.
The Europeans, of course, eventually swooped in, spread their plagues, took the gold they saw, burned nearly all the manuscripts in an attempt to exorcise the devil from Mesoamerica, converted or enslaved or killed the natives, and left behind the broken remnants of a people that most today consider vicious, baby-slaughtering, bloody-minded, uncivilized inferior savages with no proper form of society to be seen, who only know how to do war whoops and say things like, "Me big chief!" while beating their chests when they're not dismembering innocent children to appease their barbarian gods.
Actually no, it's you who's lumping people together but in an opposite and roundabout way. Initially I was referring to the natives to the continent that my grandfathers conquered. I love geneology because it's not speculation, it's PROOF.
You are throwing in some argument about some South American Indians thousands of miles away when the original question... YOUR question was about American "democracy" (which if you knew anything about history, you would know what a loathsome and vile thing democracy was to the founders of the new American Republic.)
What I said about them holds true. So who is lumping people together, again?
What I said doesn't jive with your Marxist indoctrination through your local school system, so you flew into a rage, called me a racist, idiot, no credibility, when it was you sir, who did exactly the thing you accused me of. You rushed to defend every aspect of a foreign culture of which very little written evidence survives to paint a rosy picture of the Noble Native who never did any wrong and who were decimated by some evil WHITE men
(ooooh burn! THE biggest racial slur out there these days.... WHITE!)
Harrison
09-03-2010, 08:08 PM
And as much as id like to keep up this enlighting and enriching debate going all nite, im off to enrich myself playing some heroes of newerth.
My post was in response to this, try to keep up. I know it's difficult with that extra chromosome. I'll be patient.
Itchybottom
09-03-2010, 08:09 PM
I say that in response to the absurdity that the natives were a peaceful, advanced, progressive civilization, the kind of nonsense that ultra-liberal scholars made a living out of ever since it became a fad in the late 1880s
You actually just described the Mayans according to what we know thus far about them from archaeological, anthropological and historical record. Sedentary people, with solid agriculture technology for the time, a well done mathematics system, and very little hegemonic expanse. Sure, they had their share of warfare but it was amongst themselves and interlopers. It also didn't affect the entire civilization's political structure as a whole, as the issues were regional.
Late post-classic Mesoamerican's on the other hand, I completely agree with you. The flower wars were an absurdity for certain.
As to the Mayan calendar ending, it just wasn't calculated further. If you started a long count calendar similar to the Mayans, I'm sure you'd get sick of checking your math too.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 08:11 PM
You actually just described the Mayans according to what we know thus far about them from archaeological, anthropological and historical record. Sedentary people, with solid agriculture technology for the time, a well done mathematics system, and very little hegemonic expanse. Sure, they had their share of warfare but it was amongst themselves and interlopers. It also didn't affect the entire civilization's political structure as a whole, as the issues were regional.
Late post-classic Mesoamerican's on the other hand, I completely agree with you. The flower wars were an absurdity for certain.
As to the Mayan calendar ending, it just wasn't calculated further. If you started a long count calendar similar to the Mayans, I'm sure you'd get sick of checking your math too.
Again, I ask, why are Mayan in a discussion of the political development in North America during the 1600's until the Constitution was ratified?
My post was in response to this, try to keep up. I know it's difficult with that extra chromosome. I'll be patient.
Nazi Persecution of the Mentally and Physically Disabled
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/disabled.html
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 08:15 PM
You actually just described the Mayans according to what we know thus far about them from archaeological, anthropological and historical record. Sedentary people, with solid agriculture technology for the time, a well done mathematics system, and very little hegemonic expanse. Sure, they had their share of warfare but it was amongst themselves and interlopers. It also didn't affect the entire civilization's political structure as a whole, as the issues were regional.
Late post-classic Mesoamerican's on the other hand, I completely agree with you. The flower wars were an absurdity for certain.
As to the Mayan calendar ending, it just wasn't calculated further. If you started a long count calendar similar to the Mayans, I'm sure you'd get sick of checking your math too.
Oh Bull fucking shit!
What are you a fuckin Jehovah's Witness? always putting off the end of the world due to miscalculations and misinterpretations?
You are going to sit here and look me in the eye and tell me that 2012 and the Mayans has nothing to do with the end of the world, and that every History Channel Show and Discovery Channel show isnt brainwashing millions of Art Bell listeners and Alex Jones Disciples that the end is near and the THE MAYANS TOLD US SO!
Puhleeze.... I knew that as 2012 approached peopel would just try to come up with excuses and bullshit just like they did for Y2K.
Again, I ask, why are Mayan in a discussion of the political development in North America during the 1600's until the Constitution was ratified?
because my OP piece was broad like that, i did mention the influence on north america, but at the same time mentioned the aztecs, who mayans are not too far off.
Thrynn
09-03-2010, 08:15 PM
Nazi Persecution of the Mentally and Physically Disabled
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/disabled.html
LOL, you want to talk about zero credibility.... you just hit the bullseye
Oh Bull fucking shit!
What are you a fuckin Jehovah's Witness? always putting off the end of the world due to miscalculations and misinterpretations?
You are going to sit here and look me in the eye and tell me that 2012 and the Mayans has nothing to do with the end of the world, and that every History Channel Show and Discovery Channel show isnt brainwashing millions of Art Bell listeners and Alex Jones Disciples that the end is near and the THE MAYANS TOLD US SO!
Puhleeze.... I knew that as 2012 approached peopel would just try to come up with excuses and bullshit just like they did for Y2K.
So fucking what? Some christians beleive Jesus is going to come down from the sky and leave the sinners to get killed in masse during rapture. What does it have to do with native americans having contributed nothing to civilization?
LOL, you want to talk about zero credibility.... you just hit the bullseye
Right, cuz nazis didnt in fact persecute the mentally ill and disabled... they put em in nursing homes and tried to rehabilitate them slowly into society, and taking care of the rest that were too far gone to be able to be re-introduced in society. Its just a white evil men myth that nazis persecuted the mentally ill and disabled, just like the beothuks, they never existed, its hippie liberal propaganda.
Itchybottom
09-03-2010, 08:26 PM
Again, I ask, why are Mayan in a discussion of the political development in North America during the 1600's until the Constitution was ratified?
All civilization, even proto-Sumeria had influence from people before it. It's important to trace the etymology of values, to discern a better picture. My educational background is specific to socio-anthropology, and unfortunately it was specific to near-eastern society.
Oh Bull fucking shit!
What are you a fuckin Jehovah's Witness? always putting off the end of the world due to miscalculations and misinterpretations?
Puhleeze.... I knew that as 2012 approached peopel would just try to come up with excuses and bullshit just like they did for Y2K.
No and there isn't an end to the world coming in 2012; I did not say such a thing. I said that the long count calendar simply stopped. So yes, 2012 has absolutely nothing to do with the end of the world. It has nothing to do with that silly planet Nibiru (which is just bad science, where's the increased solar wobble? the disturbance in the local system? we'd see it incoming by now, etc) and it's moon full of lizard people so many people on the Internet cling to. 2036 is far more important for an end of the world scenario, since that will be the nearest apophis will come to our planet.
I don't want to derail the thread any further, so I'm going to wait for a post to re-rail us.
Gukag
09-03-2010, 08:42 PM
I think it's pretty much a given you know next to nothing about Meso American civilizations. The clue was when you started talking the so called end of the world scenario as "predicted" by the Mayan calendar.
This is the type of faux history bullshit that people randomely pick up from crappy TV shows where people with tonorous voices dispense an endless barrage of bullshit, "may be's" and "perhaps" and "it has been speculated" and "here is random expert number 64, we're using special sound effects and images and fancy titles in order to convince you he's an authority on the subject, let's hear the bullshit he has to say".
Basically, go open a fucking book. I think Taxi is a bleeding heart liberal, probably very young, idealistic, etc...I wouldn't say I'd agree with him on any subject political, but at least he interprets data and has some semblance of background knowledge, unlike people who just won't shut the fuck up even though they have zero knowledge on the subject.
TL;DR: go read a fucking book.
Gukag
09-03-2010, 08:49 PM
Basically on the subject of the Aztec civilization, they were a bloodthirsty, expansionistic feudal empire. Give it another century or two and the Aztecs would have consolidated their hold on central America and would have abosrbed or come into conflict with the southern cities (i doubt they would have expanded north, as there was nothing but nomadic tribes up there).They were no better or worse morally than any Carthaginian city that sacrificed people to Bel Marduk, or Celtic druids sacrificing young maidens, or an Indian untouchable being ostracized, or a Japanese warrior commiting suicide, or any of the other hundreds of instances of sacrifice for religion/culture recorded in history.
Gukag
09-03-2010, 08:53 PM
damn no edit button, but anyways, the war the Aztecs did were as much for religion as the frigging Crusades were. i.e: an excuse.Do you really think the Aztecs did not prize jade, jewels, gold, animal skins, cloth, agricultural goods, etc? Most of their wealth came for tribute...tribute they had won through wars. The sacrifices were but a convenient way for rulers to mantain that tribute, by fear. How is that any worse than razing down a village to the ground, raping the women, spitting babies on spears, because they refused to pay taxes to their rightfull liege?
Noleafclover
09-03-2010, 09:06 PM
Yay, eqdruid caught my reference.
I'm pretty sure I had the right answer too.
*pseudo-scientific description of why the Native Americans had exactly threeve influence on American culture*
P.S. I glanced through, someone was like "well America's democratic, some natives had democracy yay!" ....Greeks..... . . . . . . . similarity DNE influence.
Polyphemous
09-03-2010, 10:13 PM
You are making a massive leap of causality. Perhaps some of the progressive things you list existed in some Indian cultures; but did those specific cultures pass those traits on to the European settlers?
You also seem to assume that if you can find 1 tribe that has a particular progressive trait that all Indian tribes had that trait. For every tribe that had some element of women's rights, there were 100 that beat the shit out of their women and made them do most of the work. Some of the earliest settlers were shocked to see Indian women made to do all the back breaking field work while the men lazed around at home smoking tobacco.
Jimes
09-03-2010, 11:12 PM
Because women's rights were so stellar in western societies at the time, right? It almost sounds like some of you are defending absolute barbarity that the native people of this continent suffered at the hands of Europeans, and continue to deal with today. So quick to judge other cultures... sad.
Noleafclover
09-03-2010, 11:21 PM
Because women's rights were so stellar in western societies at the time, right? It almost sounds like some of you are defending absolute barbarity that the native people of this continent suffered at the hands of Europeans, and continue to deal with today. So quick to judge other cultures... sad.
OK I peeked back to see if anyone had anything to say to me, and i'll bite...
So women's rights in america changed after women's rights abroad by 10-20 years because of native americans, not because of all the western cultures in europe... mebe native americans influenced europe too?
Really hard to prove that. Nor were they, afaik, the first culture to have rights for women in history. Show some causality...
As for the last two sentences, IDK the guy you're talking to, but disagreeing with you re: causality DNE vendetta against native americans, so please don't accuse me of the same :)
Causality vs. correlation. LEARN IT PEOPLES.
Thrynn
09-04-2010, 01:16 AM
Because women's rights were so stellar in western societies at the time, right? It almost sounds like some of you are defending absolute barbarity that the native people of this continent suffered at the hands of Europeans, and continue to deal with today. So quick to judge other cultures... sad.
It's not about judging other cultures, it's about the power of the sword, which every civilization has used to achieve it's ends. The conquered peoples of history simply lost. Any civilization that could use it did, and those that couldn't would have if they could have.
The radical self-hatred doctrine so devoutly worshipped by so many today states that the Europeans were evil for conquering the Americas, but all other conquest through the ages is simply a non biased fact from the pages of history , neither right nor wrong, no one is "the bad guy"
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