Raid Rule Madness

[Fael]

I just read that thread that derebeal felt the need to needlessly censor. It seriously boggles my mind why all these guilds and the GM's are arguing about the irrelevant minutia involved with pointing out any person whatsover that got on the hate list.

The issue is not people being on the hate list, the issue is a guild deliberately pulling the dragon to their raid force, and then killing it when they KNOW they have not secured FTE.

Who cares if "the mages are on there because of their pets" or if "BDA mages are COTHing bards 40+ seconds" later? No, those mages shouldn't be camping (COTH is easier), but even if they feel like being retards by extending the initial FTE, it doesn't become raid interference until some affirmative act occurs that rises to the level or a stall or a train way. Now, if any of those people got on the top of the aggro list like Theya and ran away from the dragon... that is another issue.

Why is golden throwing a jav a full twenty seconds after the intial FTE message? Probably because it was either a mistake or he thought aggro dropped at that instant and took a gamble to secure FTE (dragon movement is hard to judge). Since he took a gamble and failed, TMO hardly has room to complain about an extended FTE. What they do have room to complain about--what all guilds can complain about-- is a Taken guild leader deciding to pull and kill the dragon knowing full well they had no FTE.

Yes, "there were so many mistakes made here" and yes "it's clear that there are many people who don't understand"--not what this encounter log shows, but what real raid interference is--namely, deliberately aggroing a dragon and running it to your guilds camp to slay when you know you don't have FTE. There is no raid interference when a few people from various guilds find themselves on the encounter log in good faith. Even if it was after some ridiculous interpretation of the rules, it in no way absolves Taken of their deliberate "goof ups," where they make a multi-minute pull and engagement all the while knowing full well that they are breaking the rules.

You have made some very good decisions, but this one is a bad one.


Dolic
__________________

[Samoht]

half of the reason most of those people were even on the aggro list to begin with was that taken actually broke another raid rule - they trained the dragon on top of someone else's raid force. taken was required to move their raid force somewhere else and did not.

multiple infractions here and no punishment.

[Thana8088]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-B1RUHkxD1YQ/TYCO9JMDOSI/AAAAAAAAAEk/nyzmoEdQO9E/s320/deaf-ear-wtf.jpg

We can't hear you.

[Nirgon]

Dragons are left up on red atm.

No angsty wheelchair drivers in sight. Yet.

[TMBLOW]

Why is golden throwing a jav a full twenty seconds after the intial FTE message? Probably because it was either a mistake or he thought aggro dropped at that instant and took a gamble to secure FTE (dragon movement is hard to judge). Since he took a gamble and failed, TMO hardly has room to complain about an extended FTE.



this part is my fav

Poor lil Golden had the best and most sincere intentions when he threw that Jav.....you CANT BLAME HIM!!!!!!!!

bias much?

also the AE/Fear doesnt put you on the hate list.....Theya could have ran circles around the 150 people at the TT zone and none of them would have been on the hate list unless they did something to get the dragons attention

[Thana8088]

this part is my fav

Poor lil Golden had the best and most sincere intentions when he threw that Jav.....you CANT BLAME HIM!!!!!!!!

bias much?

also the AE/Fear doesnt put you on the hate list.....Theya could have ran circles around the 150 people at the TT zone and none of them would have been on the hate list unless they did something to get the dragons attention


Why wouldn't an FTE-er throw a jav to try and get FTE? You know there is no "FTE WAS LOST" message, right?

I do believe this calls for a derp.

[Fael]

Poor lil Golden had the best and most sincere intentions when he threw that Jav.....you CANT BLAME HIM!!!!!!!!

You missed the point. Why does it matter at all?

"the reason most of those people were even on the aggro list to begin with was that taken actually broke another raid rule - they trained the dragon"

This also seems laregly irrelevant, as theya, as i understand it, never lost aggro; therefore, the dragon "wasn't trained." Part of the reason why this has probably been a confusing issue to deal with by GM's, are that the guilds themselves bringing the complaint don't have a clue either. Continual hammering of this point only causes confusion as to the real issues.

Dolic

[Swish]

Dragons are left up on red atm.

No angsty wheelchair drivers in sight. Yet.

http://i.minus.com/jbnFGuLIvEuBbm.bmp

[Locust]

I just read that thread that derebeal felt the need to needlessly censor. It seriously boggles my mind why all these guilds and the GM's are arguing about the irrelevant minutia involved with pointing out any person whatsover that got on the hate list.

The issue is not people being on the hate list, the issue is a guild deliberately pulling the dragon to their raid force, and then killing it when they KNOW they have not secured FTE.

Who cares if "the mages are on there because of their pets" or if "BDA mages are COTHing bards 40+ seconds" later? No, those mages shouldn't be camping (COTH is easier), but even if they feel like being retards by extending the initial FTE, it doesn't become raid interference until some affirmative act occurs that rises to the level or a stall or a train way. Now, if any of those people got on the top of the aggro list like Theya and ran away from the dragon... that is another issue.

Why is golden throwing a jav a full twenty seconds after the intial FTE message? Probably because it was either a mistake or he thought aggro dropped at that instant and took a gamble to secure FTE (dragon movement is hard to judge). Since he took a gamble and failed, TMO hardly has room to complain about an extended FTE. What they do have room to complain about--what all guilds can complain about-- is a Taken guild leader deciding to pull and kill the dragon knowing full well they had no FTE.

Yes, "there were so many mistakes made here" and yes "it's clear that there are many people who don't understand"--not what this encounter log shows, but what real raid interference is--namely, deliberately aggroing a dragon and running it to your guilds camp to slay when you know you don't have FTE. There is no raid interference when a few people from various guilds find themselves on the encounter log in good faith. Even if it was after some ridiculous interpretation of the rules, it in no way absolves Taken of their deliberate "goof ups," where they make a multi-minute pull and engagement all the while knowing full well that they are breaking the rules.

You have made some very good decisions, but this one is a bad one.


Dolic
__________________


everyone knows this is true, which is why this is still an issue 3 days later

especially when the guild leader who made the decision truly believes they're allowed to break the rules because someone else broke a rule first. (AG getting FTE with a tracker = gofull retard apparently)

When did I try to pass this off as a benevolent act? Everyone involved in the situation is equally guilty, and that's the part you are trying to ignore. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth, thank you!

We petitioned it immediately. We didn't try to hide anything. The entire situation was a clusterfuck and multiple guilds were doing things they should not have been doing, including an illegal FTE situation that never existed in the previous rules thrown into the mix. THAT is what you are trying to completely ignore, and instead focus on the one incident in this complicated situation that benefits you the most.

Nothing left to say. Have fun.

[Gimp]

Don't you get tired of begging people to join Red in every thread?

I'm sure everyone is aware Red is there by now.

[PDX0621]

Am I the only one who doesn't know what FTE means?

[Swish]

begging

[Ele]

Am I the only one who doesn't know what FTE means?

First to Engage, i.e. get aggro.

[Gimp]

Just saying, Swish. I think you're doing more harm than good at this point.

[Swish]

Just saying, Swish. I think you're doing more harm than good at this point.

I think I'm now taking the flack for Nirgon's post :(

There's dragons and epic mobs up on red, that was all.

[Swish]

Maybe people shouldn't use such melodrama in response, and there wouldn't be a response to the response.

Just a thought.

[Gimp]

Also I'm getting a real feeling I need to tone it down on the recruitment for red, by people on the forums, in Sirken's stream last night and other places.

[Locust]

Funny how OP and the rest of the so called righteous people of this server pretend that if AG and the rest of the guilds that tracked on the spawn spot hadn't messed up, Taken would have not have had FTE on that dragon....

Did everyone miss the GM log posts?
That clearly showed that the Taken guild FTE player was 11 sec ahead of the next FTE attempt to attack the dragon before TMO.

Basically TWO guilds in that log has their FTE players tag first, without having their trackers get aggro first, Taken & TMO, and Taken FTE player was 11 sec ahead of TMO. (I would guess because TMO's mage got feared, due to the raid interfering from the other guilds, and were prevented from casting their coth spells, it's the same thing as training another guilds tracker, every tracker on the spawn spot should be happy that TMO did not go for raid suspensions for the raid interference from the other guilds on the spawn spot)

What is most surprising is why Taken & TMO didn't petition all the others for raid interfering.

FACTS: if the trackers from the other guilds hadn't messed up the tracking by standing on the spawn spot, it would have been a Taken vs TMO race, Taken because they had their trackers out of range of spawn aggro and TMO because they made sure their Tracker didn't get first aggro.

FACTS: TMO's attempt was interfered with due to other guilds having KOS trackers on the spawn spot, basically TMO was forced to give TAKEN a head start of the duration on the fear spell = giving Taken a free shot at the dragon.

IF anyone should be pissed right now it's TMO that had their attempt interfered with by the guilds that had their KOS trackers on the spawn.

it's not supprising that the other guild are trying to shift the focus and blame to someone else other then them selfs and from what I've seen sofar it looks like it's working, as far as I know TMO has not petitioned AG/IB/BDA for raid interfering with their attempt at a FFA dragon forcing them to give TAKEN guild a free shot at a dragon.

Keep creating new posts and maybe someone from TMO might create that petition and have the three guilds suspended.

FACT: taken has no way of knowing they were second on FTE list after AG

FACT: doesn't matter even if they did know

FACT: you don't kill a raid target without FTE

FACT: i'm in BDA and agreeing with a TMO RnF post and it feels weird in my butt

[Hitpoint]

This has been the strangest raid dispute in a long time. Everyone basically agrees with each other, and the GMs are the ones on the other side of the argument. Feels weird.

[Nirgon]

Don't you get tired of begging people to join Red in every thread?

I'm sure everyone is aware Red is there by now.

We're cleaning up the streets tho.

Check back in a month.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

I think it would be pretty hilarious if Sirken and pals decided to come back and retroactively suspend every guild involved for being such whiners and dragging this out over multiple threads.

[Ella`Ella]

as far as I know TMO has not petitioned AG/IB/BDA for raid interfering with their attempt at a FFA dragon forcing them to give TAKEN guild a free shot at a dragon.

Keep creating new posts and maybe someone from TMO might create that petition and have the three guilds suspended.

We haven't and we won't.

[Samoht]

"the reason most of those people were even on the aggro list to begin with was that taken actually broke another raid rule - they trained the dragon"

This also seems laregly irrelevant, as theya, as i understand it, never lost aggro; therefore, the dragon "wasn't trained." Part of the reason why this has probably been a confusing issue to deal with by GM's, are that the guilds themselves bringing the complaint don't have a clue either. Continual hammering of this point only causes confusion as to the real issues.

Dolic

you can call it a pull if you want, but the issue doesn't change. you're not allowed to set up your camp on top of someone else's raid. when you pull your target ontop of someone else's raid, you are effectively training them, independent of whether or not you are successful.

taken broke several rules on this pull.

That clearly showed that the Taken guild FTE player was 11 sec ahead of the next FTE attempt to attack the dragon before TMO.

because everybody else was respecting the FTE message. lol.

[chief]

If an officer or leader of tmo pulled a dragon without fte and tmo killed it(esp with 160+ present in zone) I'm sure more then just would be destroyed as a punishment. GL/Officers should not be breaking any rules especially the golden FTE one.

[pewpewQQ]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163090

[Zaela]

not a relevant person here but is there any reason this FTE thing isn't self enforcing?

say, after FTE anyone who isn't in the correct guild or grouped with someone in the correct guild or the pet of someone in the correct guild is barred from joining the hatelist and any attacks or spellcasts that would put them on the hatelist are blocked (proximity just wouldn't count). make it not reset until the dragon returns to their spawn/roaming point after a wipe.

* gm time saved
* no training
* shouldn't be too complex to understand or hard to code

automation > rule lawyering

[Ciroco]

That's not necessary, because we all know that you don't kill a mob you don't have FTE on.

Or at least I thought we did.

[Prismaticshop]

If TMO or IB had killed a mob they didnt have FTE on, either guild would get 2 weeks suspension.

GMs either give 2 fucks or there is clearly here a double standard.

[Orruar]

Every guild there except A-Team had illegal agro on that dragon. I propose a 2 week suspension for all guilds who were present except A-Team.

[Heebo]

Every guild there except A-Team had illegal agro on that dragon. I propose a 2 week suspension for all guilds who were present except A-Team.

Wrong. There's no such thing as illegal aggro.

[Ele]

Wrong. There's no such thing as illegal aggro.

Better not be. How else am I going to get those sweet Tormax faction hits? ohhhh baby

[Uuruk]

Don't you get tired of begging people to join Red in every thread?

I'm sure everyone is aware Red is there by now.

Don't you get tired of childish arguments over dragon pixels and a line you have to wait in to get pixels.

[radditsu]

Oh jesus fuck play another fucking game

[Bazia]

sev's loot sucks man I can't believe the meltdowns related to this shit

[Hitpoint]

Every guild there except A-Team had illegal agro on that dragon. I propose a 2 week suspension for all guilds who were present except A-Team.

illegal agro

That is not a thing.

[Locust]

sev's loot sucks man I can't believe the meltdowns related to this shit

we're not pissed because of the loot

[Swish]

mad ppl in RNF, who'd have thought

[Hitpoint]

For those not in the know, Nagafen was engaged by Taken and was being killed - they had Naggy down to 20% and had 30 people engaged. They were in no danger of wiping, but a few BDA people got on the encounter log at the end. There was no collusion between Taken and BDA on the kill and BDA received no compensation whatsoever. Since both BDA and Taken had trackers present before the mob popped, however, TMO said there was a violation and said they were denied a dragon somehow. SO they petitioned to get Sirken's ruling overturned. TMO wanted a dragon from Taken and BDA. BDA offered to not go for the next FFA Naggy.


Naggy's health was 35% and reneging, and the last handful of taken were being summoned and killed. At least 30 BDA ran in and zerged it down so class C wouldn't be able to attempt it. There was no collusion, as Taken did not ask them to do this. However, BDA violated the 2 tracker rule, as they jumped in and helped Taken kill a mob when Taken already had two trackers of their own. Meaning the total force which killed naggy, tracked with more than two trackers pas the zone line. TMO didn't want or ask for a dragon from Taken at all, since they did nothing wrong. Metallikus has no problem telling outright lies.

[Hitpoint]

regening*

Spell check is garbage.

[Samoht]

Taken kill a mob when Taken already had two trackers of their own. Meaning the total force which killed naggy, tracked with more than two trackers pas the zone line.

TMO didn't want or ask for a dragon from Taken at all, since they did nothing wrong.

wait, did they violate the 2 tracker rule or not? you call anthrax a liar but you're clearly attempting to slant facts to fit the TMO agenda. hypocrite.

[Hitpoint]

wait, did they violate the 2 tracker rule or not? you call anthrax a liar but you're clearly attempting to slant facts to fit the TMO agenda. hypocrite.

Takens trackers + BDAs trackers = more than two. Taken was all dying, however, and they had no part in consciously breaking the rule themselves. They didn't ask BDA to do what they did, supposedly. Therefore BDA violated the rule by running in and helping, when they knew they had at least one tracker of their own. Try and keep up with the conversation if you're going to call people names.

[Juevento]

regening*

Spell check is garbage.

Spelling the word correctly still doesn't make your lie a truthful statement.

[Hitpoint]

ask them why they would not submit a fraps of the incident.

TMO always has a fraps.

I had a fraps of this myself. Probably at least 5 other people did. I never uploaded it because it showed nothing relevant. How would a video of the incident have helped the situation? It would have showed Taken engaging, and then BDA running in and killing it at around 30%. Everyone knew what happened, and the GMs have the logs of when BDA engaged. No fraps was needed.

[Samoht]

How would a video of the incident have helped the situation? It would have showed Taken engaging, and then BDA running in and killing it at around 30%.

so then it doesn't show taken's force dying and naggy summoning their remaining members to finish them off?

[Hitpoint]

Spelling the word correctly still doesn't make your lie a truthful statement.

If Taken wasn't wiping, then why did BDA run in and kill it? It was clearly over.

[Hitpoint]

so then it doesn't show taken's force dying and naggy summoning their remaining members to finish them off?

That's all irrelevant to the petition. All that was needed was proof of BDA helping kill a naggy they they are not allowed to engage.

[Samoht]

Takens trackers + BDAs trackers = more than two.
They didn't ask BDA to do what they did

if there's no collusion, it's not taken + bda trackers.

Therefore BDA violated the rule by running in and helping, when they knew they had at least one tracker of their own.

what rule? so you're making up rules that two separate raid forces cannot have their own trackers? or is it that they count as the same raid force if they're both competing against TMO?

[Samoht]

That's all irrelevant to the petition. All that was needed was proof of BDA helping kill a naggy they they are not allowed to engage.

sorry, you're wrong here. helping to kill a naggy is not against the rules. that's what TMO has been doing wrong all along here. try to help other players for once instead of indiscriminately shitting all over them.

[Hitpoint]

if there's no collusion, it's not taken + bda trackers.



what rule? so you're making up rules that two separate raid forces cannot have their own trackers? or is it that they count as the same raid force if they're both competing against TMO?

The same raid force cannot track with more than two trackers. When FE/IB raided together, they had to abide by those same rules. Taken and BDA became one raid force when BDA jumped on Taken's Nagafen. BDA and Taken killed that dragon together. It's not difficult to understand.

[Hitpoint]

To clarify further. If BDA didn't have a tracker of their own, they could have helped Taken kill Naggy and it would have been fine. There is no rule against helping other guilds. There is a rule about numbers of trackers allowed past the zone in. Which is the issue here.

[Samoht]

The same raid force cannot track with more than two trackers. When FE/IB raided together, they had to abide by those same rules. Taken and BDA became one raid force when BDA jumped on Taken's Nagafen. BDA and Taken killed that dragon together. It's not difficult to understand.

It's not difficult to understand that you're just being difficult. You're clearly whining because you perceive all pixels as being the exclusive property of TMO. It's not true, though, and sometimes people are just willing to help:

helping to kill a naggy is not against the rules. that's what TMO has been doing wrong all along here. try to help other players for once instead of indiscriminately shitting all over them.

This is still applicable.

No rules were broken.

[Godefroi]

since TMO gets their kicks from denying loot to anyone but themselves, this is a win for them since the loot was destroyed. That is why they aren't petitioning. That is why umbrella isn't harassing the GMs on facebook or Skype to change the ruling.

This dude Unbrella stalked the GMs for 2 months after the FFA Naggy incident to get a new ruling. Sirken had already ruled that there was no raid interference and everyone went about their business till 2 months later Unbrella got Derubael to re-evaluate the situation. For those not in the know, Nagafen was engaged by Taken and was being killed - they had Naggy down to 20% and had 30 people engaged. They were in no danger of wiping, but a few BDA people got on the encounter log at the end. There was no collusion between Taken and BDA on the kill and BDA received no compensation whatsoever. Since both BDA and Taken had trackers present before the mob popped, however, TMO said there was a violation and said they were denied a dragon somehow. SO they petitioned to get Sirken's ruling overturned. TMO wanted a dragon from Taken and BDA. BDA offered to not go for the next FFA Naggy.

Somehow, thru litigation, BDA got suspended from their next rotated class R Naggy (ridiculous). TMO didn't get a dragon, Taken kept the loot. Mind you, there was no fraps submitted to prove anything. TMO says they somehow didn't have fraps of this incident (not likely, big fat liars) and the other guilds thought the incident was behind them since sirken had already ruled no violation so they didn't keep their fraps.

tldr, Unbrella = scum of the earth. BDA loses a rotated class R dragon for a ffa "violation".

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/981024/butthurt-o.gif

[chief]

Actually helping to kill any raid mob is against the rules if you guys have more then allocated trackers in zone.

[Godefroi]

tldr: http://foolishreporter.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/ihasconsprcythery.jpg

[Locust]

i'll let you guys finish about bda and naggy

but..

do you remember when taken killed severilous without fte and the GMs didn't care?

do you remember when catherin rubbed it in our faces?

do you remember when we played by the rules and got burned?

do you remember when your guild got suspended for breaking the rules?

do you remember when taken didn't?

[Samoht]

Actually helping to kill any raid mob is against the rules if you guys have more then allocated trackers in zone.

only when TMO does this:

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/981024/butthurt-o.gif

[Hitpoint]

No rules were broken.

Sounds like something to take up with the GMs. I wouldn't bother though. Logic and reasoning should suffice. One raid force killed a mob using more than two trackers. There's no way to argue anything else. One naggy is not a harsh punishment. It's probably best to leave it alone.

[Samoht]

Logic and reasoning should suffice.

logic would say that you'd concede the point because you have no proof that taken was wiping, but you seem to have thrown logic out the window, haven't you?

[Hitpoint]

do you remember when taken didn't?

Never forget

[Hitpoint]

logic would say that you'd concede the point because you have no proof that taken was wiping, but you seem to have thrown logic out the window, haven't you?

Irrelevant again. It doesn't and never did matter whether taken was wiping. Did or didn't bad help them kill naggy?

[Hitpoint]

Bda*

That actually was not on purpose.

[Juevento]

If Taken wasn't wiping, then why did BDA run in and kill it? It was clearly over.

This is going to be hard to accept, but some people don't get off on pixel denial. BDA attacked naggy cause we wanted to punch a dragon. We'd been camped out there all day and tracking the mob (probably from the zone line or with lvl 53+ trackers, but whatever) and didn't want all that time to be wasted and not get to beat up a dragon. We still enjoy the content of this game.

No malice towards TMO was intended and yet Unbrella has this strange hard on for making peoples lives miserable and strangely the GMs agreed with him. Consequently we ended up with a 4 month Nagafen ban, so that seems fair.

[Samoht]

Irrelevant again. It doesn't and never did matter whether taken was wiping. Did or didn't bad help them kill naggy?

not irrelevant. how do you know that BDA wasn't just being friendly to help them finish the mob after they knew Taken wasn't going to wipe? the best part about having competition is to be friendly after you know you've lost. we all know that TMO is incapable of actual friendly competition, though.

and friendly competition is NOT against the rules, and if it is, the rule REALLY needs to be changed before velious drops because i don't really see the harm in tagging a faction hit when someone is already killing tormax/dain/yelinak.

by the way, you should really leave the lying and the spinning to piggles and retardi. you seem really bad at it. TMO must really be hurting for PR people if you've all they've got any more. why isn't dumbrella in here to defend this himself?

[Hitpoint]

not irrelevant. how do you know that BDA wasn't just being friendly to help them finish the mob after they knew Taken wasn't going to wipe? the best part about having competition is to be friendly after you know you've lost. we all know that TMO is incapable of actual friendly competition, though.

and friendly competition is NOT against the rules, and if it is, the rule REALLY needs to be changed before velious drops because i don't really see the harm in tagging a faction hit when someone is already killing tormax/dain/yelinak.

by the way, you should really leave the lying and the spinning to piggles and retardi. you seem really bad at it. TMO must really be hurting for PR people if you've all they've got any more. why isn't dumbrella in here to defend this himself?

I don't have a problem with friendly competition. I'm just explaining what happened and why it happened.

[Samoht]

I don't have a problem with friendly competition. I'm just explaining what happened and why it happened.

no, at this point, you're assumed to be lying because you won't post the proof that what you say is even true, and you just divert or redirect every time you're asked only further cementing the assumption that you are in fact a liar.

[Samoht]

This is going to be hard to accept, but some people don't get off on pixel denial. BDA attacked naggy cause we wanted to punch a dragon. We'd been camped out there all day and tracking the mob (probably from the zone line or with lvl 53+ trackers, but whatever) and didn't want all that time to be wasted and not get to beat up a dragon. We still enjoy the content of this game.

No malice towards TMO was intended and yet Unbrella has this strange hard on for making peoples lives miserable and strangely the GMs agreed with him. Consequently we ended up with a 4 month Nagafen ban, so that seems fair.

i think this pretty much confirms what i've said. TMO's whole premise for complaint here was that taken was wiping and that they were ultimately denied pixels due to another raid's interference. the claim that taken was wiping cannot be substantiated (there's no proof), so as far as any actually logical person can tell here, they're just whining that they got beat to the FTE and want to make excuses about it.

also, there's no way to tell whether or not TMO would have been the ones to get the second FTE, so their claim is even more invalidated because the other raid force would have been just as likely to get the next FTE as they were so it was clearly not in their best interest to interfere on a wipe.

[kotton05]

Funny how OP and the rest of the so called righteous people of this server pretend that if AG and the rest of the guilds that tracked on the spawn spot hadn't messed up, Taken would have not have had FTE on that dragon....

Did everyone miss the GM log posts?
That clearly showed that the Taken guild FTE player was 11 sec ahead of the next FTE attempt to attack the dragon before TMO.

Basically TWO guilds in that log has their FTE players tag first, without having their trackers get aggro first, Taken & TMO, and Taken FTE player was 11 sec ahead of TMO. (I would guess because TMO's mage got feared, due to the raid interfering from the other guilds, and were prevented from casting their coth spells, it's the same thing as training another guilds tracker, every tracker on the spawn spot should be happy that TMO did not go for raid suspensions for the raid interference from the other guilds on the spawn spot)

What is most surprising is why Taken & TMO didn't petition all the others for raid interfering.

FACTS: if the trackers from the other guilds hadn't messed up the tracking by standing on the spawn spot, it would have been a Taken vs TMO race, Taken because they had their trackers out of range of spawn aggro and TMO because they made sure their Tracker didn't get first aggro.

FACTS: TMO's attempt was interfered with due to other guilds having KOS trackers on the spawn spot, basically TMO was forced to give TAKEN a head start of the duration on the fear spell = giving Taken a free shot at the dragon.

IF anyone should be pissed right now it's TMO that had their attempt interfered with by the guilds that had their KOS trackers on the spawn.

it's not supprising that the other guild are trying to shift the focus and blame to someone else other then them selfs and from what I've seen sofar it looks like it's working, as far as I know TMO has not petitioned AG/IB/BDA for raid interfering with their attempt at a FFA dragon forcing them to give TAKEN guild a free shot at a dragon.

Keep creating new posts and maybe someone from TMO might create that petition and have the three guilds suspended.

You sir are fucking all kinda of extra.

[Frieza_Prexus]

TMO's whole premise for complaint here was that taken was wiping and that they were ultimately denied pixels due to another raid's interference. .

TMO's personal complaint was BDA's assistance to a wiping force. TMO's actual complaint was about a violation of the tracker/FTE/Engagement rule. Draw whatever conclusions you will about motivation.

[Samoht]

TMO's actual complaint was about a violation of the tracker/FTE/Engagement rule. Draw whatever conclusions you will about motivation.

motivation is irrelevant. what happened at that naggy wasn't against the rules. as i said before, if it is, it needs to be changed before velious drops so that people aren't raid suspended for tagging faction hits off tormax/dain/yelinak.

[kotton05]

I love the derp all over.

Wonder how long till this is locked

[Fazlazen]

poor BDA...

[Locust]

TMO's actual complaint was about a violation of the tracker/FTE/Engagement rule.

i'm perfectly happy to serve a sentence if rules are going to be strictly enforced

this is what makes the severilous - taken ruling particularly confusing

there's no way to misinterpret what happened on sunday, and it seems like we are all in agreement (other than the GMs and Taken)

subjective punishments and rules enforcement burn people out

[Frieza_Prexus]

i'm perfectly happy to serve a sentence if rules are going to be strictly enforced

this is what makes the severilous - taken ruling particularly confusing

there's no way to misinterpret what happened on sunday, and it seems like we are all in agreement (other than the GMs and Taken)

subjective punishments and rules enforcement burn people out

I wholeheartedly agree.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

motivation is irrelevant. what happened at that naggy wasn't against the rules. as i said before, if it is, it needs to be changed before velious drops so that people aren't raid suspended for tagging faction hits off tormax/dain/yelinak.

When you engaged nagafen you joined forces with taken. Each force is allowed 2 trackers. This was especially important when trackers were your cleric and warrior duos. You had a total of 4 trackers which was against raid rules. If it was allowed to stand, tmo could break into several guilds that kill targets together and have many more trackers, engagers, cothers, etc. At each spawn .

[Man0warr]

Except Taken and BDA weren't teamed up. No loot was split, no words were shared.

[Samoht]

When you engaged nagafen you joined forces with taken. Each force is allowed 2 trackers. This was especially important when trackers were your cleric and warrior duos. You had a total of 4 trackers which was against raid rules. If it was allowed to stand, tmo could break into several guilds that kill targets together and have many more trackers, engagers, cothers, etc. At each spawn.

except taken and BDA are clearly not working in collusion here. even that dumbass hitpoint can agree to that. you can make up unlikely scenarios that fit your cause all you want, but that doesn't make you any more correct.

TMO is just jealous that BDA had fun at a naggy spawn, and they're trying to get BDA in trouble for it because TMO did not have fun. learn to be cooperative. learn sportsmanship. stop indiscriminately shitting all over every other raider on the server.

maybe then you'll get to have fun, too.

[Fuddwin]

except taken and BDA are clearly not working in collusion here. even that dumbass hitpoint can agree to that. you can make up unlikely scenarios that fit your cause all you want, but that doesn't make you any more correct.

TMO is just jealous that BDA had fun at a naggy spawn, and they're trying to get BDA in trouble for it because TMO did not have fun. learn to be cooperative. learn sportsmanship. stop indiscriminately shitting all over every other raider on the server.

maybe then you'll get to have fun, too.

Poor Samoht (Variety)

[Servellious]

except taken and BDA are clearly not working in collusion here. even that dumbass hitpoint can agree to that. you can make up unlikely scenarios that fit your cause all you want, but that doesn't make you any more correct.

TMO is just jealous that BDA had fun at a naggy spawn, and they're trying to get BDA in trouble for it because TMO did not have fun. learn to be cooperative. learn sportsmanship. stop indiscriminately shitting all over every other raider on the server.

maybe then you'll get to have fun, too.

All these raid rules were asked for now just learn to follow the rules

[Samoht]

All these raid rules were asked for now just learn to follow the rules

except there's no rule against what happened at that naggy. and if there is a rule, it needs to be removed before velious so that people can get faction hits on tormax/dain/yelinak regardless of who got FTE.

[Juevento]

When you engaged nagafen you joined forces with taken. Each force is allowed 2 trackers. This was especially important when trackers were your cleric and warrior duos. You had a total of 4 trackers which was against raid rules. If it was allowed to stand, tmo could break into several guilds that kill targets together and have many more trackers, engagers, cothers, etc. At each spawn .

Taken, I believe, had a warrior and BP cleric as their trackers. We likely had a ranger at the zone in at the time of the spawn. But hey, you guys want to be vindictive and petty, go for it. I was really disappointed and saddened to see the GMs ascribe to your version of events and even more puzzled by the punishment ultimately handed down.

The Sev ruling continues to only muddy the waters in terms of what is allowable behavior when contesting mobs. From these two instances I gather that having fun and engaging a mob that is clearly dead is punishable with a 4 month suspension from that mob while denying a fair engagement and ignoring FTE messages is encouraged.

Things like this really make one question whether this server is worth the investment of my time anymore.

[Fael]

Juvento, this is going to be hard to accept, but these rules that you are flaunting, are the only thing that lets you "enjoy the content of the game." Otherwise, you would be back where you were a year ago.

What I don't understand is that if it is truly not about pixels for you, then why all the fuss? You had plenty of opportunity to show up at our kills to help us finish off the encounters and satisfy your simple desire to "punch a dragon."

Whether or not you agree with the rules, they are there to create a playing field at which we guilds can operate within. The rules are set up under the idea that players engage content as guilds or joint raids. Guilds are not free to make an attempt at tracking and killing a mob, but if you fail to secure FTE, then joining in on the other guild's attempt, regardless of intentions. Guess what: that make sense unless you are a complete idiot.

If guilds want to team up in velious, then they better not be tracking the mobs together. Or each track with one person. Its pretty simple.

Dolic

[Detoxx]

since TMO gets their kicks from denying loot to anyone but themselves, this is a win for them since the loot was destroyed. That is why they aren't petitioning. That is why umbrella isn't harassing the GMs on facebook or Skype to change the ruling.

This dude Unbrella stalked the GMs for 2 months after the FFA Naggy incident to get a new ruling. Sirken had already ruled that there was no raid interference and everyone went about their business till 2 months later Unbrella got Derubael to re-evaluate the situation. For those not in the know, Nagafen was engaged by Taken and was being killed - they had Naggy down to 20% and had 30 people engaged. They were in no danger of wiping, but a few BDA people got on the encounter log at the end. There was no collusion between Taken and BDA on the kill and BDA received no compensation whatsoever. Since both BDA and Taken had trackers present before the mob popped, however, TMO said there was a violation and said they were denied a dragon somehow. SO they petitioned to get Sirken's ruling overturned. TMO wanted a dragon from Taken and BDA. BDA offered to not go for the next FFA Naggy.

Somehow, thru litigation, BDA got suspended from their next rotated class R Naggy (ridiculous). TMO didn't get a dragon, Taken kept the loot. Mind you, there was no fraps submitted to prove anything. TMO says they somehow didn't have fraps of this incident (not likely, big fat liars) and the other guilds thought the incident was behind them since sirken had already ruled no violation so they didn't keep their fraps.

tldr, Unbrella = scum of the earth. BDA loses a rotated class R dragon for a ffa "violation".

Hahah the butthurt over this naggy is incredible. I was there and clearly u forget to mention that taken was, in fact, wiping. You BDA hatemongers said "oh man if they wipe we arent good enough to beat TMO so lets help them!" You took a risk and it backfired. QQ moar

[Detoxx]

except taken and BDA are clearly not working in collusion here.

And were supposed to take your word on that...right? Otherwise...prove it.

[Samoht]

And were supposed to take your word on that...right? Otherwise...prove it.

nope, take TMO's word for it:

Taken was all dying, however, and they had no part in consciously breaking the rule themselves. They didn't ask BDA to do what they did, supposedly.

and if you insist that TMO is not telling the truth, i'd say that you're probably right, and that Taken was never in danger of wiping to begin with.

[Troubled]

I don't have a problem with friendly competition. I'm just explaining what happened and why it happened.

Lol

[Juevento]

What you guys did following that Naggy was petty and in my opinion sad and pathetic. It was blatant and naked revenge seeking and were I a member of TMO I would be embarrassed by my leaderships decision to pursue the matter for over 2 months.

The reason there we are concerned with the recent rulings is because they are incongruous with the vision of the raid scene that was presented back in January. The class R designation was presented as a FFA subset of mobs for non-class C guilds with lockouts for the guilds involved with killing the mobs. There was no intention of having a staff regulated rotation or anything of that nature. In fact, several guilds were formed, namely Lord Bob, with the expressed intention of disrupting the player established rotation that was established following the formation of Class R.

For BDA to be forbidden from engaging our next player rotation assigned Class R Nagafen for a dubious "infraction" that occurred during a FFA spawn is a bizarre conclusion on several fronts. First, as I previously mentioned, the rotation within Class R is a player established entity. The server staff has no involvement in that rotation insofar as they are gracious enough to have established that Class of play for us to take part in. This ruling essentially changes that aspect in a very real way. Now evidently guilds are locked into their rotation positions and the number of lockouts listed on the p99 raid page are meaningless. A correct interpretation of being banned from a Class R Nagafen SHOULD mean that the next class R spawn that BDA is not locked out for by the lockouts on the p99 raid page would not be attempted by BDA.

Secondly, penalties for infractions ought to stay within the class of spawn where the infraction occurred (or if the broken rule is severe enough, extend to all classes). Were BDA to have been restricted from competing for the next Class FFA Nagafen, the confusion level would be lessened. I would still vehemently disagree that any infraction occurred, but could at least make heads or tails of the decision.

As it stands now, this ruling along with the well documented Sev ruling and TMOs strange banning from VP, it seems as if arbitrary adjudication of raid disputes is the way of things. And that is a very sad state of affairs.

[Detoxx]

and if you insist that TMO is not telling the truth, i'd say that you're probably right, and that Taken was never in danger of wiping to begin with.

Wow, you are pretty dense. It does not matter if they were wiping. Period.

[Samoht]

Wow, you are pretty dense. It does not matter if they were wiping. Period.

you're right because no rules were broken.

[Fael]

Its interesting that the raid FAQ and rules only lists 8 examples of raid interference. Unfortunately, "illegal aggro" is not there.

1. The intentional manipulation of the FD mechanic to engage/disengage a raid target multiple times will be viewed as raid disruption. Additional Rules FAQ.

2. It is against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of killing it. Additional Raid Rules FAQ.

3. Obvious stalling of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, is against the rules. Additional Raid Rules FAQ.

4. Intentional training will be severely disciplined. Raid Rules.

5. Kill stealing will be severely disciplined. Raid Rules.

6. Guilds may not have any more than two representatives present at a raid spawn location. Raid Rules.

7. Guilds may not camp players out in the vicinity of raid targets. Raid Rules.

8. Invulnerability spells used on engagement may only be for mechanic strategies, and may not be used to stall engagement. Raid Rules.

[Samoht]

^ no where in those rules does it say that a second guild cannot punch a mob at the end for fun.

[Fael]

you're right because no rules were broken.

Raid rules say that guilds may only have 2 representatives at a spawn. The Additional Raid rules FAQ defines a "Raid" as any group of players unite in the common goal of killing a particular mob at a particular time.

There is no question that here BDA unilaterally united with Taken in their goal of killing naggy. So, the raid rules would consider them a raid.

Whether or not you broke the rules depends upon whether or not the 2 tracker limit applies to Raids. GM's apparently have said so in the past (FE/IB). It makes complete sense that it would apply in cases like this. BDA's punishment was fair. But as others have said here, I think its not fair at all the BDA would be reprimanded in an incident like that, yet GM's look the other way after blatant disruption here by Catherine, fresh out of her suspension for auto fire.

[Locust]

I think its not fair at all the BDA would be reprimanded in an incident like that, yet GM's look the other way after blatant disruption here by Catherine, fresh out of her suspension for auto fire.

nailed it

[Samoht]

Raid rules say that guilds may only have 2 representatives at a spawn.

do you admit that this rule was not broken? y/n?

The Additional Raid rules FAQ defines a "Raid" as any group of players unite in the common goal of killing a particular mob at a particular time.

that's nice.

There is no question that here BDA unilaterally united with Taken in their goal of killing naggy. So, the raid rules would consider them a raid.

this is where your logic falls apart. you simply assume that it was BDAs goal to unite with Taken. there's nothing to prove your claim. how do you know that it wasn't simply their goal to punch the mob that they had just spent 16 hours socking independent of the success of Taken? at that point, it's not a joint raid, it's a Taken raid (the one that had FTE) and a BDA raid that had conceded the mob to Taken and decided to just have a little fun at the end. and then TMO cried.

Whether or not you broke the rules depends upon whether or not the 2 tracker limit applies to Raids.

who cares, it was two separate guilds and it was two separate raids.

GM's apparently have said so in the past (FE/IB).

who cares about this, either. FE and IB were clearly an alliance that split their loot. there was no split in the loot between taken and BDA because they're not an alliance and weren't working together.

It makes complete sense that it would apply in cases like this.

only if it fits the TMO agenda, amirite?

BDA's punishment was fair.

no it's not, it was unfounded and needs to be overturned and any rule against hitting another raids target without disrupting their raid needs to be fixed before velious comes out because people will be tagging tormax/dain/yelinak kills for faction.

But as others have said here, I think its not fair at all the BDA would be reprimanded in an incident like that

lol, fake sympathy.

yet GM's look the other way after blatant disruption here by Catherine

only truthful thing in your post

fresh out of her suspension for auto fire.

and then you go back to posting dumb shit

[Man0warr]

Raid rules say that guilds may only have 2 representatives at a spawn. The Additional Raid rules FAQ defines a "Raid" as any group of players unite in the common goal of killing a particular mob at a particular time.

There is no question that here BDA unilaterally united with Taken in their goal of killing naggy. So, the raid rules would consider them a raid.

BDA understands this rule, so if we were CLEARLY going to team up with Taken - why would we break it by having 4 trackers there? This completely invalidates your argument.

If BDA wasn't working with Taken at the tracking stage, then how is it illegal to have our own trackers?

[Hitpoint]

do you admit that this rule was not broken? y/n?

No. It absolutely was broken. Navir was your mage and Taken had a warrior and cleric on spawn. That's 3 people.


this is where your logic falls apart. you simply assume that it was BDAs goal to unite with Taken. there's nothing to prove your claim. how do you know that it wasn't simply their goal to punch the mob that they had just spent 16 hours socking independent of the success of Taken? at that point, it's not a joint raid, it's a Taken raid (the one that had FTE) and a BDA raid that had conceded the mob to Taken and decided to just have a little fun at the end. and then TMO cried.

It doesn't matter what their goal was. However lets be honest, we all know you wanted to make sure class C didn't kill Naggy. Not that it matters, we weren't even mad about that.

What you, and many others fail to understand is that many raid disputes are more about setting a precedent than just getting a free mob here or there. The loot off this naggy was trash, and nobody cared that we lost the kill. The bigger issue was that IF we had let this slide, Taken/BDA could engage with as many trackers as they wanted to make sure mobs stay between them. This was back when trackers could FTE mobs. So Taken could have a warrior and a cleric, and BDA could have a warrior and a cleric and they could engage, hold FTE safely, and kill the dragon together with no chance at wiping. That's a tremendous advantage, not just over class C, but over any other guild competing. That's why this couldn't be allowed to slide.

who cares, it was two separate guilds and it was two separate raids.

It was two seperate guilds, but one FTE and one engage. Thus it's one raid.

who cares about this, either. FE and IB were clearly an alliance that split their loot. there was no split in the loot between taken and BDA because they're not an alliance and weren't working together.

FE/IB did not always split their loot actually. Many times all the loot from a kill would go to one guild or the other.


only if it fits the TMO agenda, amirite?

Sure


no it's not, it was unfounded and needs to be overturned and any rule against hitting another raids target without disrupting their raid needs to be fixed before velious comes out because people will be tagging tormax/dain/yelinak kills for faction.

I do think that this very mild punishment is more or less fair. I can see how this rule could be overlooked, class C didn't even notice that a rule had been broken at first. It was almost completely overlooked by us too. You did the same thing on a Vox a few weeks before that we didn't even think of challenging. Too bad about the statute of limitations right?




Where did all the fraps of the naggy incident go? Why destroy the evidence if you could prove taken was wiping? Did any taken admit they would wipe if BDA had not interfered with their Naggy?

I assume most of them have been deleted because they are huge files which take up a lot of space, and generally they are deleted immediately when we don't need them. I deleted mine probably 15 minutes later, before we even realized a rule had been broken. We didn't need them here, and still don't.

You guys keep bringing up tagging for faction, or just running in and hitting a mob that is about to die. However, encounter logs show how much damage and hate was done to a mob, per person, in addition to how long they are on the encounter log. So if you had just run in to tag for faction, like you guys keep repeating for some reason, then the GMs would be able to tell. However that's not the conclusion that they came up with. You engaged and killed Nagafen when a significant amount of his health was still remaining, and did a significant amount of threat and damage.

[Locust]

this argument has been exhausted. can we get back on track please?

at least the BDA punishment points to a rule, whether one side believes they broke it or not.

like Fael said earlier, GMs looked the other way for an even more blatant rule violation in Taken's killing of Severilous, which is why both the naggy ruling and sev ruling are extremely confusing for the rest of the raiding population

[Hitpoint]

Also, I'm not sure why TMO are villains in this particular case. You guys screwed over any other guild that was there too. IB had just as good a chance at FTE as us. We aren't even getting a free naggy out of this, and to my knowledge, we didn't ask for one. We just didn't want BDA to keep jumping in on every class R fte to make sure class C can't fte it.

[Hitpoint]

you think BDA is jumping on Class R FTEs for the sole purpose of denying TMO loot?


For the sole purpose of keeping loot from class C, yes. I've heard that those were your intentions, from members of Taken. Whom I believe. It seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Teaming up is smart, and I don't have a problem with it in theory. Class R should do what they have to, to compete on FFA spawns. As long as you aren't breaking rules to do it.

[kotton05]

What you guys did following that Naggy was petty and in my opinion sad and pathetic. It was blatant and naked revenge seeking and were I a member of TMO I would be embarrassed by my leaderships decision to pursue the matter for over 2 months.

The reason there we are concerned with the recent rulings is because they are incongruous with the vision of the raid scene that was presented back in January. The class R designation was presented as a FFA subset of mobs for non-class C guilds with lockouts for the guilds involved with killing the mobs. There was no intention of having a staff regulated rotation or anything of that nature. In fact, several guilds were formed, namely Lord Bob, with the expressed intention of disrupting the player established rotation that was established following the formation of Class R.

For BDA to be forbidden from engaging our next player rotation assigned Class R Nagafen for a dubious "infraction" that occurred during a FFA spawn is a bizarre conclusion on several fronts. First, as I previously mentioned, the rotation within Class R is a player established entity. The server staff has no involvement in that rotation insofar as they are gracious enough to have established that Class of play for us to take part in. This ruling essentially changes that aspect in a very real way. Now evidently guilds are locked into their rotation positions and the number of lockouts listed on the p99 raid page are meaningless. A correct interpretation of being banned from a Class R Nagafen SHOULD mean that the next class R spawn that BDA is not locked out for by the lockouts on the p99 raid page would not be attempted by BDA.

Secondly, penalties for infractions ought to stay within the class of spawn where the infraction occurred (or if the broken rule is severe enough, extend to all classes). Were BDA to have been restricted from competing for the next Class FFA Nagafen, the confusion level would be lessened. I would still vehemently disagree that any infraction occurred, but could at least make heads or tails of the decision.

As it stands now, this ruling along with the well documented Sev ruling and TMOs strange banning from VP, it seems as if arbitrary adjudication of raid disputes is the way of things. And that is a very sad state of affairs.

Funny thing is no one gives a fuck about naggy. Stop trying to be relevant. Move along:)

[Samoht]

Navir was your mage

i always knew navir was a troll, and i always thought that when he left BDA, he'd join omni, but he joined taken instead? guess i need to get up to date.

Not that it matters, we weren't even mad about that.
The loot off this naggy was trash, and nobody cared that we lost the kill.

you guys sure did cry a lot on this one for people who didn't care...

we all know you wanted to make sure class C didn't kill Naggy.

dumb assumptions

The bigger issue was that IF we had let this slide, Taken/BDA could engage with as many trackers as they wanted to make sure mobs stay between them.

dumber assumptions. we all know that TMO is the scum of the server and that Taken gives them a close race. why would anybody choose to work with either guild?

So Taken could have a warrior and a cleric, and BDA could have a warrior and a cleric and they could engage, hold FTE safely, and kill the dragon together with no chance at wiping. That's a tremendous advantage, not just over class C, but over any other guild competing. That's why this couldn't be allowed to slide.

just because TMO has tried to do this twice with their alts/feeder guilds doesn't mean the rest of the server has the same hard-on for denying pixels to other players that htey do.

It was two seperate guilds
Thus it's one raid.

these two guilds are not in an alliance and you said so yourself that they weren't working together. you're just trying to bend facts to fit your agenda.

but one FTE and one engage.

and only one guild got loot. so it was clearly not a joint raid.

FE/IB did not always split their loot actually. Many times all the loot from a kill would go to one guild or the other.

nobody gives a fuck if class C guilds are abusing their relationships. go bitch about this somewhere else.

I do think that this very mild punishment is more or less fair.

TMO would want to punish people for having fun.

I can see how this rule could be overlooked

because it's not a rule.

class C didn't even notice that a rule had been broken at first. It was almost completely overlooked by us too.

and then in stepped dumbrella, a young lawyer.

You did the same thing on a Vox a few weeks before that we didn't even think of challenging. Too bad about the statute of limitations right?

what the fuck are you talking about? i don't think i've ever done a vox raid on this server. dragons raids here are too much of a clusterfuck thanks to TMO.

I assume most of them have been deleted because they are huge files which take up a lot of space, and generally they are deleted immediately when we don't need them.

or when they prove that you're lying.

You guys keep bringing up tagging for faction, or just running in and hitting a mob that is about to die. However, encounter logs show how much damage and hate was done to a mob, per person, in addition to how long they are on the encounter log. So if you had just run in to tag for faction, like you guys keep repeating for some reason, then the GMs would be able to tell

nobody said that they tagged naggy for faction. they said that they killed it for the hell of it. it's YOUR stance that they assisted explicitly to deny TMOs right to pixels.

what i keep bringing up is how bad of a precedent you're trying to set. it's going to cause serious issues in velious if TMO wants it to be considered a joint raid force just for jumping in at the end of a kill that's already been secured. people will be doing it all the time on tormax/dain/yelinak. it's classic and definitely deserves to be allowed on this server.

However that's not the conclusion that they came up with.

no it's not. but that didn't stop dumbrella from bitching and moaning until he got his way.

You engaged and killed Nagafen when a significant amount of his health was still remaining, and did a significant amount of threat and damage.

how is this even pertinent? it's not like they tried to KS or make any kind of claim to the loot.

[Samoht]

You guys screwed over any other guild that was there too.

can you please explain to me how ANYBODY was screwed over by BDA having a little fun punching a dragon that was already secured by taken? you're just an entitled little bitch that didn't get his way. end of story.

[Samoht]

Funny thing is no one gives a fuck about naggy. Stop trying to be relevant. Move along:)

hitpoint obviously cares. dumbrella cared enough to throw a fit until someone got raid suspended over it.

[Hitpoint]

can you please explain to me how ANYBODY was screwed over by BDA having a little fun punching a dragon that was already secured by taken? you're just an entitled little bitch that didn't get his way. end of story.

You killed a mob that was about to have a clear agro list. This is already well established by like 100 witnesses and GM encounter logs. Any other guild there would have been able to get FTE and a free kill in probably a 40-50 seconds. The fact that you cling to this argument destroys any credibility that you had. Responding to you is becoming redundant and tiresome.

[Samoht]

You killed a mob that was about to have a clear agro list. This is already well established by like 100 witnesses and GM encounter logs. Any other guild there would have been able to get FTE and a free kill in probably a 40-50 seconds. The fact that you cling to this argument destroys any credibility that you had. Responding to you is becoming redundant and tiresome.

are you circling back now to the issue being that taken was about to wipe? because you still haven't provided any proof to substantiate that claim whatsoever.

[Hitpoint]

You must be new here if you've never raided Vox with BDA. They used to do it every week until very recently. And they used to jump Taken's FTEs there also.

are you circling back now to the issue being that taken was about to wipe? because you still haven't provided any proof to substantiate that claim whatsoever.

BDA is suspended from the next Naggy. There's your proof. GMs looked at the encounter logs and saw that you had a significant impact on the outcome of the fight. Have a nice day.

[Sckrilla]

This Samoht queer is reallly mad about this Naggy, huh?

[Juevento]

You killed a mob that was about to have a clear agro list. This is already well established by like 100 witnesses and GM encounter logs. Any other guild there would have been able to get FTE and a free kill in probably a 40-50 seconds. The fact that you cling to this argument destroys any credibility that you had. Responding to you is becoming redundant and tiresome.

You keep saying this, but this isn't even close to being true. That fight was over prior to us running in there.

Also for the record, Unbrella requested that BDA furnish TMO an FFA naggy as repayment for denying them a Nagafen. When our officers rightly rejected that outright, Derubael unilaterally decided that a Class R ban would be in order (which again makes no sense whatsoever).

Please stick to the truth. I know it shines an unflattering light on your guild, but sometimes that how things are.

[Samoht]

BDA is suspended from the next Naggy. There's your proof.

you mean the proof that Derubael is backpedaling from this as fast as he can and avoiding any further conflict regarding the truth by locking threads?

GMs looked at the encounter logs and saw that you had a significant impact on the outcome of the fight.

why do you keep implying that I had any influence on a dragon kill i wasn't even present for? also, i'm pretty sure you cannot tell that kind of stuff from logs. you know what would help, though? fraps. do you know anybody who has a fraps of the event?

[Servellious]

This is what happens when families are denied food stamps

[Hitpoint]

You keep saying this, but this isn't even close to being true. That fight was over prior to us running in there.

Also for the record, Unbrella requested that BDA furnish TMO an FFA naggy as repayment for denying them a Nagafen. When our officers rightly rejected that outright, Derubael unilaterally decided that a Class R ban would be in order (which again makes no sense whatsoever).

Please stick to the truth. I know it shines an unflattering light on your guild, but sometimes that how things are.

Well, I don't know anything about the negotiations so I won't comment on that.

However, I was playing a 52 warrior for that spawn though. I was counting the remaining Taken and was ready to run in soon. The fight was completely over, it had been for a long time. Naggy's health had gone down like 5% in the last few minutes and dps were all dead or being summoned. There were no BP clerics. If your guild's internal propaganda is saying that Naggy was going to die- you're being lied to.

[Samoht]

Naggy's health had gone down like 5% in the last few minutes

if you're going to lie, at least try to keep your lies straight.

Naggy's health was 35% and reneging

so was his health going down or was it reneging?

[Samoht]

also, prove it.

[Hitpoint]

if you're going to lie, at least try to keep your lies straight.



so was his health going down or was it reneging?

Went down 5% in the last few minutes, like I said. Reneging when BDA went in. Both apply. You're grasping at straws so hard right now. Take a break.

[Hitpoint]

I have Taken people PMing me that you're an idiot. Truth.

[Samoht]

prove it.

[Samoht]

I have Taken people PMing me that you're an idiot. Truth.

and i have retardi and piggles PMing me that they have pictures of you blowing sckrilla while dumbella fingers your butthole, but i wasn't going to say anything.

[chief]

Samoht is everything okay at home man?

[Juevento]

Samoht is everything okay at home man?

This is a good question.

[Sckrilla]

Yeah, this dude is seriously mad. Mad enough to hijack a thread about Taken shenanigans and turn it into an unjust BDA-Naggy suspension for simply wanting to "stab a dragon." Good on you, Samoht!

[Samoht]

Yeah, this dude is seriously mad. Mad enough to hijack a thread about Taken shenanigans and turn it into an unjust BDA-Naggy suspension for simply wanting to "stab a dragon." Good on you, Samoht!

how does hitpoints dick taste? does dumbrella let you suck on his finger?

[Sckrilla]

how does hitpoints dick taste? does dumbrella let you suck on his finger?
^^mad, proved it.

[Samoht]

you guys can't even prove that taken was wiping on naggy

[Sckrilla]

Wasn't present at the raid, never saw a fraps of it, don't really care at all about it whatsoever. Just funny how mad you obviously are about it when you, yourself admitted to not even being present at the raid. Take it easy bro, BDA will have their chance again in 4 months or however long it takes you Class R folk to get pixels.

[TMBLOW]

For the record, straight from quality sources:

1. Naggy's health was at 15-20% or less when BDA jumped in. Not 35% lol

2. Taken clerics stocked up on Soul Fires specifically for this encounter. Their clerics ( and others ) still had well over 10+ charges of instant CHs ready to go as well as their Main tank ready with his own + stinging warts + reaper.

It probably would have taken another 5 min had BDA not jumped in, but the dragon was going to die, without a doubt.

/continue thread

[quido]

There's no medicine for what Samoht has.

[Samoht]

Take it easy bro

not your bro, asshole. keep your cock-sucking mouth away from me.

Just funny how mad you obviously are about it when you, yourself admitted to not even being present at the raid.

this is my concern here:

what i keep bringing up is how bad of a precedent you're trying to set. it's going to cause serious issues in velious if TMO wants it to be considered a joint raid force just for jumping in at the end of a kill that's already been secured. people will be doing it all the time on tormax/dain/yelinak. it's classic and definitely deserves to be allowed on this server.

TMO is ruining the server for the rest of us. again.

[Samoht]

There's no medicine for what Samoht has.

i wish there was medicine that could make TMO go away.

[Locust]

For the record, straight from quality sources:

1. Naggy's health was at 15-20% or less when BDA jumped in. Not 35% lol

2. Taken clerics stocked up on Soul Fires specifically for this encounter. Their clerics ( and others ) still had well over 10+ charges of instant CHs ready to go as well as their Main tank ready with his own + stinging warts + reaper.

It probably would have taken another 5 min had BDA not jumped in, but the dragon was going to die, without a doubt.

/continue thread

this clears up some of the confusion if it's true.

i'm still having fun thinking about what sort of creative punishment bda/ib/tmo would have gotten if they had killed severilous on sunday instead of taken. hypotheticals for that situation may be better suited for a different thread.

[Detoxx]

needs to be overturned and any rule against hitting another raids target without disrupting their raid needs to be fixed before velious comes out because people will be tagging tormax/dain/yelinak kills for faction

Crazy idea, since this is the 145th time you brought it up, you can simply tag someone with a spell, see invis bracer, crown of rile...etc....so your point is moot

[chief]

this clears up some of the confusion if it's true.

i'm still having fun thinking about what sort of creative punishment bda/ib/tmo would have gotten if they had killed severilous on sunday instead of taken. hypotheticals for that situation may be better suited for a different thread.

If a TMO/IB officer(guild leader?) pulled in a dragon without FTE and killed it , they wouldn't be raiding for 2 weeks.

[Samoht]

you can simply tag someone with a spell, see invis bracer, crown of rile.

and then get raid banned for being present on the hate list thanks to TMO throwing a fit. fix it now before velious is released.

[pufen]

Why is Taken such a trash guild?

How can Catherine be so fucking stupid on the raid discussion thread? Ban Catherine to show that the server won't put up with pedo-nerd guild officers pretending to not understand the rules.

[Juevento]

If a TMO/IB officer(guild leader?) pulled in a dragon without FTE and killed it , they wouldn't be raiding for 2 weeks.

And said officer would have been perma banned with the IB Draco kill used as precedent.

[Detoxx]

can you please explain to me how ANYBODY was screwed over by BDA having a little fun punching a dragon that was already secured by taken? you're just an entitled little bitch that didn't get his way. end of story.

Dude you have got ti be retarded to think, that for one second, anyone believes you jumped in to "punch a dragon for fun". Get the fuck out of here.

At least man up ffs

[chief]

this samoht guy and chest are both in the same guild, explains a lot about BDA

[Samoht]

Dude you have got ti be retarded to think, that for one second, anyone believes you jumped in to "punch a dragon for fun".

still haven't seen any proof to the contrary.

Why is Taken such a trash guild?

How can Catherine be so fucking stupid on the raid discussion thread? Ban Catherine to show that the server won't put up with pedo-nerd guild officers pretending to not understand the rules.

this is funny because we say the same thing about TMO all the time, lol.

[Glenzig]

Is everquest still fun for any of y'all? Serious question. I wonder this when I read these type threads.

[Detoxx]

Is everquest still fun for any of y'all? Serious question. I wonder this when I read these type threads.

Its fun to see people rage out over a nagafen that was a legitimate raid interference, then cry cause they got reprimanded because they know that with their precious rotation they wont see another one for 2.5 years.

When you start resorting to calling people gay, and saying you have pics of them blowing guys and thumbs up their ass, you know you have been defeated.

Get over it you fucking crybaby.

[Juevento]

this samoht guy and chest are both in the same guild, explains a lot about BDA

I doubt Samoht is a current BDA member. I would certainly expect any BDA member to acquit themselves better than this person currently is doing.

[Thana8088]

Everyone knows BDA often jumps in and punches other guilds' dragons for fun, especially if they have been tracking it for 16 hours.
I mean, just imagine how hard this is to do when you refuse to track!

[Samoht]

Its fun to see people rage out over a nagafen that was a legitimate raid interference, then cry cause they got reprimanded because they know that with their precious rotation they wont see another one for 2.5 years.

It's fun to see people rage out over losing nagafen claiming that all pixels on the server belong to them, cry to one GM and get rejected, then have dumbrella rules lawyer to another GM for two months before he finally caves and tries to enforce some negligible ban that's ultimately bad for the health of the entire server.

When you start resorting to calling people gay, and saying you have pics of them blowing guys and thumbs up their ass, you know you have been defeated.

guess i win because TMO lost first (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1595537&postcount=112).

[chief]

you won bro congrats

[pufen]

Is everquest still fun for any of y'all? Serious question. I wonder this when I read these type threads.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-e3pePogR_L8/Ujz6NOsLkdI/AAAAAAAABGA/iYGfOCzaBiU/s1600/are+you.png

[pufen]

If BDA would stop being class R welfare handout scrubs and moved up to Class C (considering they have the people), then this 1 naggy suspension wouldn't be such a fuckin tear jerker for you. All this crying about a 4 month suspension is hilarious. It's your own fault.

[pufen]

guess i win because TMO lost first (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1595537&postcount=112).

Erroneous on both counts. Sckrilla was stating a fact.

[Samoht]

If BDA would stop being class R welfare handout scrubs and moved up to Class C (considering they have the people), then this 1 naggy suspension wouldn't be such a fuckin tear jerker for you.

that's right because TMO would make your entire existence on this server one giant tear jerker.

[Hitpoint]

Is everquest still fun for any of y'all? Serious question. I wonder this when I read these type threads.

No.

[pufen]

that's right because TMO would make your entire existence on this server one giant tear jerker.

I don't understand how TMO would make my experience any worse?

[Samoht]

I don't understand how TMO would make my experience any worse?

you can't understand english *shocker*

what's your native language?

[pufen]

My comment was about BDA moving up to class C, thus not having to wait 4 months for a Naggy handout. You say BDA moving up to Class C would cause TMO to make my experience, as a TMO member, worse off without giving a reason. If anything, it would be more fun for me. Am I missing something?

[Samoht]

My comment was about BDA moving up to class C, thus not having to wait 4 months for a Naggy handout. You say BDA moving up to Class C would cause TMO to make my experience, as a TMO member, worse off without giving a reason. If anything, it would be more fun for me. Am I missing something?

yeah, you cannot follow pronouns. english lesson begin. follow the pronoun:

If BDA would stop being class R welfare handout scrubs and moved up to Class C (considering they have the people), then this 1 naggy suspension wouldn't be such a fuckin tear jerker for you.

is followed up by:

that's right because TMO would make your entire existence on this server one giant tear jerker.

nobody ever implied any change would be made to pufen's miserable existence on this server, but he's vain enough to to think someone is talking to him every time they address someone else using the second person.

end english lesson.

what's your native language?

[Thana8088]

end english lesson.


Sometimes I get mad at everybody and everything, too, then I bleed for five days and it's all better.

YOU might want to go get a napkin. :)

[Detoxx]

Sometimes I get mad at everybody and everything, too, then I bleed for five days and it's all better.

YOU might want to go get a napkin. :)

/thread

or maybe just

/samoht

[indiscriminate_hater]

ya'll need some stoop drinking in your lives. also jeeeeezuss

[Godefroi]

P99 Class C is an e-sport

P99 Class R is communist russia before 1989

P99 FFA is illegal aggro circus and GM headaches

Pras

[Troubled]

Ruling was fine IMO other than the fact that the player agreed rotation was officially recognized and used to dole out punishment. That was really weird but being that we show up for maybe 20% of the FFAs if that, and that class R doesn't work out as it's set up technically, it fit. It does set up the question for how the rotation will be recognized going forth, at least to me.

Didn't make the call and didn't particularly agree with it. Taken could have very well wiped. I don't think we jumped in at 30%, it was around 20-24% I believe. We had like 12 people there(at least that's what it felt like to me) and weren't going to make an attempt anyway. I don't think we had any clerics. We also didn't have warrior/cleric trackers. It was my druid hiding around the corner and Navir, a 60 mage that probably got booted to the zone. That's the truth from my perspective.

So is the player made rotation now officially backed? I'm pretty sure that I've heard a GM say on stream or have seen a post stating if someone killed a mob in class R outside the rotation, they'd be moved to class C.

[Troubled]

Also, I'm against the removal of FFA. Recently, it's been the only thing I log in for. I wouldn't be against it going C/R/C/R etc with guaranteed repops every week at a random time and day.

[Troubled]

Also, I'm against the removal of FFA. Recently, it's been the only thing I log in for. I wouldn't be against it going C/R/C/R etc with guaranteed repops every week at a random time and day.

Repops being FFA, I mean.

[pufen]

C/R/C/R aka BDA wanting more handouts.

[Ravager]

BDA/BDA/Harmony/BDA/BDA/Freeport Community College/BDA/BDA/BDA/TMO imo.

[dustysr06]

remove FFA = everyone wins

move to class C if u want to FFA mobs

50/50 split C / R

that way no one has to interact with tmo unless they chose to

how bout FFA = loot goes to exp group
-no whining, no drama

[pufen]

how bout FFA = loot goes to exp group
-no whining, no drama

because that's fucking retarded.

[dustysr06]

the fraps, ruling, and shennanigans that happened at the last sev is whats fucking retarded


..as well as your mother

[Bazia]

exp gets loot

none of this bullshit happens

[Detoxx]

how bout FFA = loot goes to exp group
-no whining, no drama

Sounds fun

[Ravager]

exp gets loot

none of this bullshit happens

True, but then every guild would be class C and every raid would be 300 wizards poopsocking the spawn point.

[Bazia]

on my live server that was classic

except it was SK's

[dustysr06]

na only the ffa cycle mobs would have that ruleset, C/R still do their thing

i havent raided dragons in some time but the shit i read on these boards screams FFA = problems, C/R for the most part work their shit out but everytime an FFA mob spawns with more than a couple guilds its a shitfest

make ffa a different ruleset and aside from getting trained - 0 CSR support for FFA spawns, kill the fucking mob and its your loot, GG.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

For the record, straight from quality sources:

1. Naggy's health was at 15-20% or less when BDA jumped in. Not 35% lol

2. Taken clerics stocked up on Soul Fires specifically for this encounter. Their clerics ( and others ) still had well over 10+ charges of instant CHs ready to go as well as their Main tank ready with his own + stinging warts + reaper.

It probably would have taken another 5 min had BDA not jumped in, but the dragon was going to die, without a doubt.

/continue thread

Doesn't this make what bda did even more retarded? Gunning for them suspensions!

[chief]

soulfires for naggy yikes

[Sirken]

i read the first 130 posts. but thats enough, my head hurts now.

Samoht, you're either trolling or being intentionally dense.

Hitpoint, you win the thread.

/thread

[HeallunRumblebelly]

i read the first 130 posts. but thats enough, my head hurts now.

Samoht, you're either trolling or being intentionally dense.

Hitpoint, you win the thread.

/thread

Hp gets cranky but he has a good grasp on shit. Lazie has a good grasp too but sucks at posting in rnf 😸😸

[Juevento]

soulfires for naggy yikes

Hounding the staff for 2+ months for a petition over a perceived slight at said naggy. Yikes indeed.

[Porz]

the fraps, ruling, and shennanigans that happened at the last sev is whats fucking retarded


..as well as your mother

Just turn on pvp during FFA encounters will fix everything!

[Oleris]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c96aaa270e1bbeb9bc8881df357bca2f/tumblr_mk4gvvYuSV1qzhglro1_400.jpg

[kotton05]

How about we just go back to old rules before this class system. Too many rules not being upheld. Keep the rotation and go back to what we did before.

[chief]

Hounding the staff for 2+ months for a petition over a perceived slight at said naggy. Yikes indeed.

who are you

[Gaffin 7.0]

How about we just go back to old rules before this class system. Too many rules not being upheld. Keep the rotation and go back to what we did before.

[Fael]

How about we just go back to old rules before this class system. Too many rules not being upheld. Keep the rotation and go back to what we did before.

And no csr in vp

[kotton05]

And no csr in vp

Stop teasing me! Also under the old rules at least sev loot wouldn't of been deleted (grats AG) also BDA wouldn't get in trouble for "helping" idk I prefer more of the Wild West no rules FTE is king. No standing on zone in pad or coth race (which in fact makes certain classes completely useless due to priority)

[Lisset]

I hate pvp servers. Having said that I would love to see a month long trial of making the zone pvp when a raid mob spawns. Sure, it would suck for those not going after dragons but for all the others it would be awesome. :)

[kotton05]

I hate pvp servers. Having said that I would love to see a month long trial of making the zone pvp when a raid mob spawns. Sure, it would suck for those not going after dragons but for all the others it would be awesome. :)

I went red and sat on spawns. I had back up. But to jeremy, aalpha, and a few others (minus yapas, who I never wanted to kill.) I was red and welcomed jousting, jeremy was the only to meet me in the middle,
While dragons we're killed we jousted in vp. Don't think either of us had a killing blow of each other. But I sure got a few on every one else lol. Still love all y'all.

[abacab-101]

I remember when raid mobs spawned everyone was already there, and we tried to out DPS one another.

Bring back 2009/2010 pls.

[Detoxx]

How about we just go back to old rules before this class system. Too many rules not being upheld. Keep the rotation and go back to what we did before.

Youd be crazy to think theyd give up their vending machines man. Its funny because before all these retarded rules, their big stance was "we dont want to track and batphone at 4am", but that is exactly what they do now.

No, instead of going back to the way it was, theyd rather push for a C/R/C/R system, eliminating the FFA all together. This will never happen tho. If they wanna get rid of FFA it would need to look something like C/C/R/C/C/R

With 16 hour windows and the no poopsocking rule the raid scene would have been fine without all this carebear WoW shit.