Clothesing Threads

[Argh]

http://www.amefird.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2-Cones.jpg

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Careful, Deru isn't just a mod here, he's a mod at ShrekFAQs.net.

[khanable]

A+

[Swish]

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/138488/2669206-ibtl00183f.jpg

[Strifer]

No black threads?
#Justiz4Treyvon

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Careful, Deru isn't just a mod here, he's a mod at ShrekFAQs.net.

Shrek is love. Shrek is life.

[Juevento]

So one thing is becoming more obvious to me. Derubael = Cucumbers. They both love censorship, iksars, and things being classic even if its stupid.

You should see the trail of locked threads and deleted posts on BDA forums at Cucumbers merciless hands.






oh wait, most of you can.

[Derubael]

damn cucumbers. they figured us out.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

damn cucumbers. they figured us out.

Ha! (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=an+example+of+backpedaling)

[Troubled]

Unless Cucumbers hates BDA as much as Deru, they couldn't be the same person. Dude gets his hate on in almost every post and stream.

[Derubael]

Unless Cucumbers hates BDA as much as Deru, they couldn't be the same person. Dude gets his hate on in almost every post and stream.

When have I ever hated on BDA? :(

[Anichek]

When have I ever hated on BDA? :(

Start the list - GO!

[Derubael]

I don't think I've ever insulted the guild as a whole. I like BDA and its members.

[Anichek]

I don't think I've ever insulted the guild as a whole. I like BDA and its members.

You have to see that when you're asked questions, and ignore answering them to provide some sense of clarity, that to many of our members it's like you're shitting on us intentionally.

Chest asked you direct questions in the previously locked thread like what, half a dozen times? You ignored responding to the comparative examples and how the current ruling doesn't line up with precedent.

I know that every situation offers a degree of offset from the previous situation - even when the root/crux of the situations may be aligned.

It's lack of consistency, and lack of courtesy (by multiple sides/guilds/up to and including server staff at times) that boggles MANY of us. If there was consistency, the logic applied would make much more sense and be not only more palatable but more predictable - and would dictate behavior to avoid infractions in the long run.

[Derubael]

^I answered Chest's inquiries in previous posts, which was why I didn't single his out and answer them again.

We don't see the two situations as similar. While there are parallels that can be drawn, the Taken/BDA vs TMO dispute was cut-and-dry, whereas this situation was not.

If you guys are really so eager to start comparing precedent (instead of letting us make fluid decisions that may change despite similar circumstances), the incident BDA was punished for previously drew a one-week suspension against FE. And I believe IB may have gotten a week out of VP recently for the same thing. I don't see BDA requesting a one week suspension for themselves instead of one naggy based on precedent. Or a week off of 6 of the most highly valued class-R spawns.

The reason we were able to give BDA such a light punishment is because we reserve the right to make fluid decisions based on individual circumstances that will vary from situation to situation. BDA jumped a Taken Nagafen, something that the "standard punishment" for is a week suspension. But because we felt the situation didn't warrant such a harsh punishment, we kicked them off a Nagafen (and since BDA didn't actually loot the Taken Nagafen, they will be losing the loots off exactly 1 dragon.... which is very similar to the punishment Taken got).

No two situations are alike, and we will always reserve the right to evaluate discipline on the fly. Again, this is what allows us to assign "more appropriate" punishments to guilds based on the exact circumstances. If we followed precedent to the letter, BDA would have lost a lot more than a single Nagafen.

And again, those two punishments are incredibly similar at their core - both guilds lost one "dragon loot". While the suspension is clearly the "harsher punishment", it's not by much, and we feel suspending Taken from a Sev when they've already lost the loot on this one isn't an appropriate punishment given the circumstances (which were wild and chaotic).

I hope that makes sense. We try to discipline guilds in ways that make sense, without being arbitrary or unnecessary. We'd like for punishments to send a message, rather than just draw blood. I think in both of these situations, the guilds (hopefully) learned their lesson - if they didn't that will quckly become apparent, and further action will be taken.

This is another reason why we've moved to the "player mediated dispute" system. It doesn't seem to matter what call we make, there will always be a portion of the population that cries foul - right or wrong, someone will feel they were treated unfairly. Frankly I think we made the right decision, and so does Sirken. If you feel otherwise you are welcome to do so, but beyond an initial explanation we shouldn't need to defend our decisions unless they go beyond the realm of sanity.

<3, Deru.

[Zadrian]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/479/398/f01.gif

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

TLDR

[khanable]

damn cucumbers. they figured us out.

posting from my alt account

scales and tails 4 life

[Zadrian]

These truly are sad times when, "We try to discipline guilds in ways that make sense, without being arbitrary or unnecessary." is a sentenced that has to be typed out by a person.

[Locust]

the taken/sev situation had nothing to do with BDA (or as much to do with BDA as every other guild there), which is why it's so confusing that we were being singled out on sirken's stream.

the bda nagafen debacle has nothing to do with this

there's no parallel to bda's raid interference with draco because we didn't kill it, thus the warning. in the sev situation, taken did kill it (which is why the assumption would be a suspension)

someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but the summary of why people (i mean shit, there were TMO and BDA members agreeing with each other in RnF yesterday) are upset about this is:

taken's loot being revoked isn't a punishment because they broke the rules to get it. they had no right to kill or loot, according to the rules.

any of the guilds there could have decided to kill steal Severilous,

but,

every other guild there was working under the assumption that killing a raid target without without FTE would lead to harsh punishment (regardless of the circumstances, i.e. Sirken's "respect the FTE" commandment), because that's how it's been ruled in the past almost every single time

taken ignored the rules that everyone else were playing by

...

we understand the rulings are up to interpretation and we appreciate the time you guys donate to this project. none of us really care about the dragon loot. it's jsut one of those.. what's the point of playing a game if the game doesn't have rules? sorta things. the FTE meta game is all we have to live for!

[Derubael]

the bda nagafen debacle has nothing to do with this

^ how is it not a similar situation? BDA jumped on a mob that Taken had FTE on, and ended up losing a Nagafen. Chest has been pointing out how the situations are similar and should demand similar punishment since the decision came up.

If we're going to draw parallels and precedent and cite that as written-in-stone rules, then BDA should have been suspended for a week - a full suspension - just like FE got when they jumped a TMO FTE.

Here's another similar situation:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152382

IB was suspended for... jumping an FTE. Granted, this was a "kill steal" but the actual rule violated was the same one BDA violated in that Nagafen dispute. Why is BDA not calling for themselves to be suspended for a week? Precedent, which we are putting so much stock in, states they should sit out for at least that long.

[Argh]

Lets keep this thread focused on threads please.

[Derubael]

http://www.themoderngladiator.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/very-cool-skinny-suit-fashion-article-on-suits-feature.jpg

^new threads for an old thread.

sry argh.

I need to stop reading RnF.

[arsenalpow]

My issue with your handling of the Naggy situation is three fold.

1) Sirken said the issue was done and over. A mans word is supposed to mean something. Just because Unbrella has a micro dick doesn't mean he should be able to harangue you enough to raise the issue from the dead after the case was closed.

2) You show no respect whatsoever. I actively dislike you and I used to actively dislike Sirken but we've buried that hatchet. We had a long talk and ironed out some issues. You still seem to have a very big hard on for BDA. You can say otherwise but ball don't lie. You kept focusing on BDA in regards to the Sev situation unnecessarily when the real issue as it's been said 100x is someone that didn't have FTE killed the dragon. It's inconsequential as to why other people were on the hate list. They needed to get off the list and wait for the reset.

3) BDA is suspended for Class R Naggy for helping to kill a FFA Naggy. Don't cross the streams. TMO blatantly trains BDA in Fear. It was signed off by Unbrella a fucking guild leader. We have 1080p fraps of the encounter and the result is a slap on the wrist. BDA kills 20% of Naggy and now we're out a class R Naggy which puts our next encounter something like 4 months away. I feel like BDA has been singled out numerous times for whatever reason. The first suspension with Trak under completely murky rules, then this Naggy, and now singling us out for Sev when we did nothing wrong.

I want, just like everyone wants, clear and consistent rulings using precedence as a guide. I want a logical thought process and fair rulings across the board.

[Argh]

My issue with your handling of the Naggy situation is three fold.

Couldn't tell if this was a clothing pun or not. If so, touche.

[arsenalpow]

Couldn't tell if this was a clothing pun or not. If so, touche.
Nailed it

[Locust]

^ how is it not a similar situation? BDA jumped on a mob that Taken had FTE on, and ended up losing a Nagafen. Chest has been pointing out how the situations are similar and should demand similar punishment since the decision came up.

come on man, BDA "assisted" Taken on the last 20% of their Nagafen kill for fun...
naggy was about to die and a few of our members decided to help finish it off
(other accounts suggest Taken was wiping and we secured the kill for them, which is why we are serving our sentence)
either way, Taken got the loot they deserved for winning FTE

we weren't trying to kill steal naggy or interfere with their raid. BDA gained nothing from helping Taken other than getting to punch a dragon in the butt

chest is upset about it because it happened in FFA and we were punished in class R

my point is that situation and any other past situation doesn't change what happened during Severilous on sunday

Taken did not win the FTE race, and killed the dragon anyway

breaking a well defined rule that the rest of us were adhering to

that's why the entire raiding population, not just BDA, is upset

i'm not trying to argue the decision you guys made

[Glenzig]

These lawyers must be making a killing!

[Cecily]

When you see a dragon, don't attack it. Ask a GM for help.

[Locust]

When you see a dragon, don't attack it. Ask a GM for help.

when you steal cookies from the cookie jar, immediately tell your mom so you receive no punishment, is pretty much what i've learned from all of this.

[Locust]

(i was always a believer in deny til you die)

[Derubael]

My issue with your handling of the Naggy situation is three fold.

1) Sirken said the issue was done and over. A mans word is supposed to mean something. Just because Unbrella has a micro dick doesn't mean he should be able to harangue you enough to raise the issue from the dead after the case was closed.

2) You show no respect whatsoever. I actively dislike you and I used to actively dislike Sirken but we've buried that hatchet. We had a long talk and ironed out some issues. You still seem to have a very big hard on for BDA. You can say otherwise but ball don't lie. You kept focusing on BDA in regards to the Sev situation unnecessarily when the real issue as it's been said 100x is someone that didn't have FTE killed the dragon. It's inconsequential as to why other people were on the hate list. They needed to get off the list and wait for the reset.

3) BDA is suspended for Class R Naggy for helping to kill a FFA Naggy. Don't cross the streams. TMO blatantly trains BDA in Fear. It was signed off by Unbrella a fucking guild leader. We have 1080p fraps of the encounter and the result is a slap on the wrist. BDA kills 20% of Naggy and now we're out a class R Naggy which puts our next encounter something like 4 months away. I feel like BDA has been singled out numerous times for whatever reason. The first suspension with Trak under completely murky rules, then this Naggy, and now singling us out for Sev when we did nothing wrong.

I want, just like everyone wants, clear and consistent rulings using precedence as a guide. I want a logical thought process and fair rulings across the board.

You're right. I show no respect to this raid community by coming here and explaining the reasoning behind our decisions. I'll stop making that mistake from here on out.

[arsenalpow]

You're right. I show no respect to this raid community by coming here and explaining the reasoning behind our decisions. I'll stop making that mistake from here on out.

Look I'm trying to have a legitimate conversation with you. You know that's not what I said. It's not easy to be in a position of power, to have decisions picked apart, but that's the burden of leadership.

[Zadrian]

I haven't been active for years. Someone tell me why helping another guild down a mob considered bad? How is it any different than joint raids?

[Derubael]

Look I'm trying to have a legitimate conversation with you. You know that's not what I said. It's not easy to be in a position of power, to have decisions picked apart, but that's the burden of leadership.

I'm the only GM dumb enough to come here and explain our position on things. It wears on me, and I'm tired of it - even when we make the right call we get hammered. That's my own fault for putting myself here in front of the community.

We made our decision, I explained our reasoning - which I still stand behind, and won't continue to argue over - and that's where I'm going to leave it from now on.

[Swish]

I feel Derubael's pain, you try to do something good for the community, try to help it... and everyone shits on you no matter what you say or do.

Right now someone else posted a thread about red in server chat and there's zero haters on it. Can't help but feel singled out pals. There used to be a thriving happy community on these boards.

[Thana8088]

There used to be a thriving happy community on these boards.

And you used to be one of them! <3

[Glenzig]

I feel Derubael's pain, you try to do something good for the community, try to help it... and everyone shits on you no matter what you say or do.

Right now someone else posted a thread about red in server chat and there's zero haters on it. Can't help but feel singled out pals. There used to be a thriving happy community on these boards.

People are mainly just looking for a reason to lash out. Any reason can be justified when your angry.

[arsenalpow]

I'm the only GM dumb enough to come here and explain our position on things. It wears on me, and I'm tired of it - even when we make the right call we get hammered. That's my own fault for putting myself here in front of the community.

We made our decision, I explained our reasoning - which I still stand behind, and won't continue to argue over - and that's where I'm going to leave it from now on.

Separate yourself from the decision man. This isn't an attack on you. You can't make everyone happy all the time but this wasn't the right call. I'm not in it for a pound of flesh, Taken skating doesn't bother me, but the logic behind the decision doesn't add up for me, nor does it add up for other people.

FTE is paramount. That's been the commandment. It's completely irrelevant that anyone else was on the aggro list while Taken downed the mob. That has NEVER been a point of debate before and we've had plenty of shitshow FFA encounters with 5+ guilds on the aggro list. Hell, every single Noble cycle has as many guilds on the encounter list as are present for the fight. Using that justification for your decision is causing strife because that justification has NEVER been used before. Yes, the encounter was a shitshow. It always is, but unless BDA or TMO or AG were using that aggro to delay someone eleses attempt on Sev or kiting him around the zone then it's irrelevant.

[Rais]

^ how is it not a similar situation? BDA jumped on a mob that Taken had FTE on, and ended up losing a Nagafen. Chest has been pointing out how the situations are similar and should demand similar punishment since the decision came up.

If we're going to draw parallels and precedent and cite that as written-in-stone rules, then BDA should have been suspended for a week - a full suspension - just like FE got when they jumped a TMO FTE.

Here's another similar situation:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152382

IB was suspended for... jumping an FTE. Granted, this was a "kill steal" but the actual rule violated was the same one BDA violated in that Nagafen dispute. Why is BDA not calling for themselves to be suspended for a week? Precedent, which we are putting so much stock in, states they should sit out for at least that long.

This one is easy to answer. Because they (IB in your example) have numerous infractions of the same rule with in days apart. Thus they were suspended for a week.

Precedent has been Sirken gives a guild a time out on the very next dragon spawn (If it's on their rotation up next they have it off or if FFA is up same deal) . Every single instance of a FTE issue of a guild jumping it, interfering and or taking has lead to the next dragon off. In those instances of guilds who have multiple offenses of this issue were given a week.

It simply boils down to did Taken have FTE? No? Then they broke the rules when they decided to kill the fucking thing anyways. It isn't much easier to go off of than that. Anyone else on the encounter logs don't mean shit since they had no need to remove themselves from a encounter agro list that they don't even see.

If you want to start going back and saying you can punish people for just being on the agro list of encounters they didn't have FTE, then no one would be raiding at all for the next 5 months. Being on the list alone isn't breaking the rules.

TL/DR

Taken gained agro without FTE. They MUST Die/Camp/Zone. Next up on the agro list, they do the same and so on till it resets. If those guilds don't do it, and kill the dragon then they break the FTE rules that are clear.

It's that simple and you or Sirken are reading too much into it and making it harder than it should be. You have every fucking guild on the server in unison saying this.

End result Taken broke the rules with FTE no matter what. They should have the next FFA Sev off if this is their first offense. If it's not, then a week.

[Rais]

I'm the only GM dumb enough to come here and explain our position on things. It wears on me, and I'm tired of it .

You're not that much of an asshole. I warned you from day one about it!

[Uuruk]

http://www.******mania.com/******%20jokes%20page%202/******mania%20******%20jokes.jpg