Taken - Sev

[Juevento]

GO!

[Shinko]

rules are hard to follow

[Mezzmur]

I think Theya forgot to turn off autofire before getting coth'd, couldn't help but agro Sev before it reset.

All is forgiven, he has already paid for his sins.

[Troubled]

RNF FTE

[Calabee]

i like pie, hairy meaty pie

[Korben]

This will be good!

[Argh]

someone will deliver

[Herp]

Need Cliffnotes on what they did.

[Skew]

Lets draw a line under this episode , no bans , Taken just need to kill the next class C Sev for TMO as we all know TMO were the rightful owner of this Sev.

[Calabee]

Sev had been down to 2 hours in window and going down (FFA sev) EJ was packing with 160 +... he gets down to an hourish left, spawns, AG KoS mage aggros and FTE's... now if you new to p99 ruling, you cant pull with trackers, he dies and taken had gotten secondary by now, they didnt let em fully reset (meaning no new FTE...Ie: killed under a DIFFERENT guild fte's they werent even suposed to kill off of.. tracker FTE)

so kinda a double whammo... interested to see what official ruling will be

[Glasken]

Sunday night fight night, win by technical decision!

Tune in to see the results!

[Rais]

Sounds weak. AG will be suspended on their next Class R Sev (not ffa since it's already been done before to another guild this month). No idea on Taken. Maybe they just gained agro due to AG tracker going full retard, and not fully their fault. We shall see. Not much drama tbh.

[Freakish]

Taken did nothing wrong by killing another guilds improperly engaged dragon. Leave Taken alone! You're all just jealous you didn't think of killing it first.

[Ciroco]

Sounds weak. AG will be suspended on their next Class R Sev (not ffa since it's already been done before to another guild this month). No idea on Taken. Maybe they just gained agro due to AG tracker going full retard, and not fully their fault. We shall see. Not much drama tbh.

haha, what?

[Tasslehofp99]

Taken did nothing wrong by killing another guilds improperly engaged dragon. Leave Taken alone! You're all just jealous you didn't think of killing it first.

haha

[Ella`Ella]

WTS: Lawyering Servies. Hourly rate is negotiable. PST Unbrella.

[Lisset]

A strict reading of the rules and application of precedent would hold that it was AG's kill and Taken killed AG's dragon. Since Taken killed the dragon without FTE, loot is destroyed, raid suspension may also apply, but rulings seem to have been inconsistent. AG, having engaged a dragon illegally, may also be suspended but there's no precedent either way.

What is clear (and was explicitly stated by GM's in the Faydedar incident) is that there is no gray area about killing a dragon without FTE and Taken didn't have it.

[doyoueventrainbro]

and because the guild that ended up killing and taking the loots did not have a proper FTE, as they did not allow the mob to reset before engaging it.



SO, they kill a mob they don't have FTE on and they DO NOT GET A SUSPENSION?

Wha?

[Eponymous Anonymous]

WTS: Lawyering Servies. Hourly rate is negotiable. PST Unbrella.

You must not be that good since you guys still ate that ban for training IB in VP.

[Sirken]

please refrain from doing things on sundays

[Merekai]

That's funny. So going full retard = having a KoS mage too close to Sev's spawn. Thanks for clearing that one up!

[Tasslehofp99]

Naw going full retard = killing a mob you don't have FTE on

[Ambrotos]

That also.

[Mezzmur]

SO, they kill a mob they don't have FTE on and they DO NOT GET A SUSPENSION?

Wha?

You can't be punished for being retarded. It's like real courts.

[arsenalpow]

Precedent has already been set. Taken has to be punished.

[khanable]

So I took a peep at the fraps, I'll clear some stuff up so ya'll can have informed rages and flames:

AG, IB, TMO, and BDA all had mages sitting too close to Sev - and facing the wrong direction because no one apparently knows where Sev spawns. AG won the 'who will it hit first' lottery.

Everyone got their javs in while Sev was facerolling mages

No one let it reset

Taken got the kill

Fin

[Freakish]

You can be non-kos to dragons.

[Lisset]

You can be non-kos to dragons.

I am. Too bad I'm not a Mage. :)

[doyoueventrainbro]

OH DRAGON HIT ME WHEN IT SPAWN? HUEHUE MY BAD

[Lisset]

Ruling made, loot deleted, no suspensions.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162920

[Mezzmur]

So I took a peep at the fraps, I'll clear some stuff up so ya'll can have informed rages and flames:

AG, IB, TMO, and BDA all had mages sitting too close to Sev - and facing the wrong direction because no one apparently knows where Sev spawns. AG won the 'who will it hit first' lottery.

Everyone got their javs in while Sev was facerolling mages

No one let it reset

Taken got the kill

Fin

Everyone should've died, zoned, capped, ......or CotH'd youself?!?! and let the dragon reset. I know that's what we did. It's just that Taken disregarded the rules in place and pulled the dragon anyway. This is a multi-minute pull and attempts to communicate with Taken fell on def ears. Loot deletion alone feels weak, but, hopefully this leads to Mage-CotH-FTE removal.

[Tasslehofp99]

Precedent has already been set. Taken has to be punished.

can't believe I agree with chest

[Eponymous Anonymous]

I can't find it in the raid discussion forum, can you please elaborate on the incident where the precedent has been set?

[Herp]

Even if everybody on agro list didn't zone/die/hat out in a timely manner like they should have, it gave them absolutely zero right to pull and kill the dragon without FTE.

What am I missing here?

[Juevento]

hopefully this leads to Mage-CotH-FTE removal.

So much this!

[Freakish]

That you're not Taken. Get back in your hole pleb.

[Lisset]

I can't find it in the raid discussion forum, can you please elaborate on the incident where the precedent has been set?

Read the Faydedar thread. It's on the second page.

[Hitpoint]

So I took a peep at the fraps, I'll clear some stuff up so ya'll can have informed rages and flames:

AG, IB, TMO, and BDA all had mages sitting too close to Sev - and facing the wrong direction because no one apparently knows where Sev spawns. AG won the 'who will it hit first' lottery.

Everyone got their javs in while Sev was facerolling mages

No one let it reset

Taken got the kill

Fin

TMO's mage was factioned. Anyone who just blindly followed suit, parked a kos mage on top of Sev's spawn, and thought that was a good idea... is very stupid.

[Sadad]

TMO's mage was factioned. Anyone who just blindly followed suit, parked a kos mage on top of Sev's spawn, and thought that was a good idea... is very stupid.

And what of TMO's mage, who sat directly underneath the mob when he knew he was going to eat an aoe?

[Lisset]

In the above mentioned Faydedar thread, Sirken said:

you can make whatever argument you like, at the end of the day, you didn't have FTE, and after that person died, there was never a new FTE message given.

you had absolutely zero reason to think the mob was yours.

next time it happens you will get a week break from raiding. one of the most important things in the raid scene is to respect each others FTE messages.


So how many more "next times" will there be Sirken? Or is every guild entitled to a "next time" too?

[Hitpoint]

And what of TMO's mage, who sat directly underneath the mob when he knew he was going to eat an aoe?

Good thing we had another one out of range with another puller ready.

[kotton05]

How do you not know where sev spawns!!!:)

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Read the Faydedar thread. It's on the second page.

Ok having read that thread, the obvious difference from this situation is:

On Faydedar, the FTE was rightfully TMO's, who were not disqualified from killing it at that point, and went on to be KSed by IB.

With Sev, AG got an accidental FTE with their tracker, who was then disqualified and thus had to concede the encounter, and so there was no rightful FTE in this case. The situations are vastly different and I don't see the first setting a precedent for the second.

I will agree that everyone on the hate list at that point should have wiped their agro and let Sev reset. Was the pull and kill by Taken rightful without an FTE shout in this case? Probably not, but i'm willing to bet that Taken was not the only guild still on the hate list when Sev was pulled to TT zone.

[Hitpoint]

How do you not know where sev spawns!!!:)

He only spawns in the exact same spot every 7 days.

[Lisset]

With Sev, AG got an accidental FTE with their tracker, who was then disqualified and thus had to concede the encounter, and so there was no rightful FTE in this case. The situations are vastly different and I don't see the first setting a precedent for the second.



The precedent is what Sirken said multiple times in that thread and that is that the ONLY time to kill a raid mob is when YOU have FTE. He also said specifically that FTE should have been allowed to reset.

The situation is actually quite similar. 2 guilds got on the FTE list and the guild that got FTE had their person die and the guild that also was on the list killed the dragon without their own FTE. That was the essence of that whole thread. IB decided that TMO's FTE didn't count and killed the mob. Taken decided that AG's FTE didn't count and killed the mob. That's very similar. You have 2 guilds both getting on the agro list without FTE. you have 2 guilds deciding on their own that the FTE didn't count and killing the mob.

Bottom line is that Taken should get a week off. Sirken specifically warned everyone in the raid discussion forum.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

The precedent is what Sirken said multiple times in that thread and that is that the ONLY time to kill a raid mob is when YOU have FTE. He also said specifically that FTE should have been allowed to reset.

The situation is actually quite similar. 2 guilds got on the FTE list and the guild that got FTE had their person die and the guild that also was on the list killed the dragon without their own FTE. That was the essence of that whole thread. IB decided that TMO's FTE didn't count and killed the mob. Taken decided that AG's FTE didn't count and killed the mob. That's very similar. You have 2 guilds both getting on the agro list without FTE. you have 2 guilds deciding on their own that the FTE didn't count and killing the mob.

Bottom line is that Taken should get a week off. Sirken specifically warned everyone in the raid discussion forum.

Then so should IB, BDA, TMO, Omni and Divinity as they ALL had people on the hate list, not allowing the mob to reset.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1589528&postcount=7

[Dizey]

Ok having read that thread, the obvious difference from this situation is:

On Faydedar, the FTE was rightfully TMO's, who were not disqualified from killing it at that point, and went on to be KSed by IB.

With Sev, AG got an accidental FTE with their tracker, who was then disqualified and thus had to concede the encounter, and so there was no rightful FTE in this case. The situations are vastly different and I don't see the first setting a precedent for the second.

I will agree that everyone on the hate list at that point should have wiped their agro and let Sev reset. Was the pull and kill by Taken rightful without an FTE shout in this case? Probably not, but i'm willing to bet that Taken was not the only guild still on the hate list when Sev was pulled to TT zone.

The rule is as simple as it gets. No FTE message for your guild, not your guild's to kill. What's so hard to understand there?

[Eponymous Anonymous]

The rule is as simple as it gets. No FTE message for your guild, not your guild's to kill. What's so hard to understand there?

Do you read? I stated I agree with that.

[Tasslehofp99]

Then so should IB, BDA, TMO, Omni and Divinity as they ALL had people on the hate list, not allowing the mob to reset.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1589528&postcount=7

TMO had no one on that encounter log/sev's hate list that I can see

[Tasslehofp99]

lol nm derp im blind, saw them on the 2nd glance

[Eponymous Anonymous]

TMO had no one on that encounter log/sev's hate list that I can see

8 Golden The Mystical Order 55 Bard 18:05:16 20 18:08:11 175 41011 0 0
16 Saragirl The Mystical Order 60 Ranger 18:05:56 60 18:06:37 41 41011 38 50
17 Yibz ( The Mystical Order 60 Bard 18:07:20 144 18:07:27 7 41011 0 0

[Swish]

This thread had so much potential :(

[Hitpoint]

Then so should IB, BDA, TMO, Omni and Divinity as they ALL had people on the hate list, not allowing the mob to reset.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1589528&postcount=7

Those guilds didn't kill it though. Anyone on the agro list should have the chance to zone/cap/camp/die. TMOs taggers did that. Every single person who touched that dragon should have done that and they wouldn't be at fault whatsoever.

[khanable]

Here ya go nerds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4zz1aIKuDQ&feature=youtu.be

[Freakish]

Your bard just buffed the mage who cothed you, which had aggro on Sev. You can see the pet taunting in the video! Like, I get why you'd coth him first but he's just continuing the engage if he buffs you with Selo's.

So we confirm this is BDAs fault and not Taken. Free Taken. Taken did nothing wrong.

[khanable]

So we confirm this is BDAs fault and not Taken. Free Taken. Taken did nothing wrong.

can confirm

[Ella`Ella]

You must not be that good since you guys still ate that ban for training IB in VP.

That was due to internal politics, which trumps logic.

[arsenalpow]

Look at rogean's log, the two taken bards had the longest duration of aggro.

[khanable]

tl;dr

coth mage races lame

roll red

420 blaze it faggots

etc

[Hitpoint]

Lets just agree to not coth race to anything except Trak. Class C doesn't do it for class C mobs. Nobody likes it. The only reason anyone does it at all is because Taken did it that one week, which basically forces everyone else to.

[Swish]

tl;dr

coth mage races lame

roll red

420 blaze it faggots

etc

[dustysr06]

if this was on red those mages could have been battling out with eachother til the victor actually earned the rights to that dragon...

Give it a try!

[Ciroco]

pass

[Swish]

if this was on red those mages could have been battling out with eachother til the victor actually earned the rights to that dragon...

Give it a try!

Way less hassle for GMs, Rogean and pals.

Blue can't police itself, tears guaranteed every time. I hope the basement dwellers sleep okay tonight.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Look at rogean's log, the two taken bards had the longest duration of aggro.

And your 2 bards were 3rd and 4th and you also had members still on agro when Sev died. What does this prove? Lots of people fucked up this day not only Taken.

[Clark]

SO, they kill a mob they don't have FTE on and they DO NOT GET A SUSPENSION?

Wha?

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Clark do you ever add anything besides reposting someone else's quote?

[Argh]

And your 2 bards were 3rd and 4th and you also had members still on agro when Sev died. What does this prove? Lots of people fucked up this day not only Taken.

Who was on aggro list doesn't really mean anything. It just shows anyone who either damaged the mob or was in range of her ae from spawn to her being pulled to the zoneline.

Nobody else fucked up because nobody else killed the mob.

[Lisset]

So we confirm this is BDAs fault and not Taken. Free Taken. Taken did nothing wrong.

How do you figure?

Fact: Taken killed a dragon that they didn't have FTE on. Period.

[Hitpoint]

Who was on aggro list doesn't really mean anything. It just shows anyone who either damaged the mob or was in range of her ae from spawn to her being pulled to the zoneline.

Nobody else fucked up because nobody else killed the mob.

Yea there's actually no rule about being on another guild's encounter log. It's not something you ever want to do, and it you're stupid you can fuck with their pull, which would be against the rules. But just appearing on the engage list means absolutely nothing.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

sarcasm.

[Hitpoint]

Being hit by an aoe does not add you to the agro list though. ^

[TMO so immersed]

TMO, Take a moment, dry your eyes, I know things haven't been going your way the last few weeks. Put things in perspective, take a deep breath. Are those gauntlets of fiery might for your 7th alt on a free MMO going to improve your life? Will you feel accomplished if those were yours?

Take a walk around the block. Get some sun. Take a nice warm shower. I promise you that you'll feel better.

[Hitpoint]

TMO, Take a moment, dry your eyes, I know things haven't been going your way the last few weeks. Put things in perspective, take a deep breath. Are those gauntlets of fiery might for your 7th alt on a free MMO going to improve your life? Will you feel accomplished if those were yours?

Take a walk around the block. Get some sun. Take a nice warm shower. I promise you that you'll feel better.

We could not care less about this Sev tbh. But, if this incident stops the coth sock on FFA spawns then it's by far the most valuable Sev that's ever spawned imo.

[khanable]

But, if this incident stops the coth sock on FFA spawns then it's by far the most valuable Sev that's ever spawned imo.

+1

[Susvain2]

We could not care less about this Sev tbh. But, if this incident stops the coth sock on FFA spawns then it's by far the most valuable Sev that's ever spawned imo.

+2

7hours today fml

[Lisset]

What amazes me is how Deru and Sirken are focusing on the initial engagement and saying everyone screwed up and how they could ding everyone, but that ignore one major point: Taken made a conscious effort to PULL and KILL a dragon that they didn't have FTE for.

THAT is the only real issue here. And by so doing, they denied every other guild even an opportunity to kill the dragon the right way. Oh they say that they petitioned for a ruling but as has been said before, the ONLY thing to do was NOT engage and wait for FTE. But no, they made a conscious decision to deny anyone else even the opportunity to do it the right way.

So it's nothing but unadulterated bullshit to treat Taken the same as AG because Taken KNEW they didn't have FTE and killed it anyway, all on the mere hope that a GM would rule in their favor, while denying the dragon to anyone else.

The only way Taken should be treated like all the rest would be if they hadn't PULLED THE DRAGON ANYWAY.

[Signal]

Use common sense here people. 5 mage pets got aggro on Sev very close to his first and 2nd AE going off. The next people on the list not Theya and not Golden are getting aggro as they get coth'ed and hit the people with aggro with songs. The whole fuck up was Theya aggroing Sev and keeping that FTE going. All those bards following Sev back to the raid put people in their groups on the encounter log too. Niemche messed up no doubt. But Theya extending that FTE was just stupid and a blatant attempt to extend an FTE and lawyer after.

[Orruar]

Clark do you ever add anything besides reposting someone else's quote?

[Signal]

I'd just kick Catherin/Theya from the guild Taken. Guy/Girl whatever.. consistently doing shady shit and dragging that tag through the mud. Had He/She not conciously aggroed Sev while he was aggroed 3 mages die and IB is mad at Nemce and the whole thing ends with bards throwing javs for FTE on a reset dragon.

[Bazia]

160 +

lol

[Signal]

Just to clarify look at the aggro list the GM's posted. Every BDA mage was in the group with BDA bards by the group ID's on the right hand side. Every person that got on the aggro List for TMO,BDA, and IB all were in the same groups for their respective guilds Mages that got hit by the first or 2nd AE (2nd set off again thanks to Theya)except for 3 people not guilded in Taken. Necromis, Mikeo, and Mirgan were the only 3 not in a group where a mage got hit by an AE. Those 3 people didn't get on the aggro list until Sev was at the TT ZL I imagine by the delay before they got added.

The only person not in a group that got on the aggro list due to an AE and stayed on the aggro list throughout ? Theya. The only person who consciously pulled an engaged mob. It is in your own encounter logs GMs. Do the right thing here.

[dustysr06]

Just to clarify look at the aggro list the GM's posted. Every BDA mage was in the group with BDA bards by the group ID's on the right hand side. Every person that got on the aggro List for TMO,BDA, and IB all were in the same groups for their respective guilds Mages that got hit by the first or 2nd AE (2nd set off again thanks to Theya)except for 3 people not guilded in Taken. Necromis, Mikeo, and Mirgan were the only 3 not in a group where a mage got hit by an AE. Those 3 people didn't get on the aggro list until Sev was at the TT ZL I imagine by the delay before they got added.

The only person not in a group that got on the aggro list due to an AE and stayed on the aggro list throughout ? Theya. The only person who consciously pulled an engaged mob. It is in your own encounter logs GMs. Do the right thing here.

Imagine if you could KILL THEYA, and TAKE her dragon?

How much less rustled would you be right now?

try red... juss sayin!

[dankzilla]

I like how Catherin calls for a stop to CotH race on mobs when she was the one who escalated the need for all guilds to do it in the first place.

[Dany]

Then I get kicked out by the leader telling me I bring negativity to the guild because I've had made comments about how I didn't liked the rotation on these forums in the past... AHAHA... (I never said anything in guild chat or anyone about that in-game) He had to go on an investigation or something or some Keke tard told him? Surprise, many Dolj's members are in your guild. Many are/were in 2 guilds at once. Taken, and Dolj. They/I won't tell who. Go ahead and keep investigating. I wasn't a spy, I had friends in Taken.

YOUR guild is a disgrace and I strongly recommend everyone to stay away from that guild. I won't even go further in details because your guild is doing a good job at showing what it is all about... a pi*ce of sh*t guild that has no respect for anyone. They deserve to be locked out. Plain and simple.

[Troubled]

Then I get kicked out by the leader telling me I bring negativity to the guild because I've had made comments about how I didn't liked the rotation on these forums in the past... AHAHA... (I never said anything in guild chat or anyone about that in-game) He had to go on an investigation or something or some Keke tard told him? Surprise, many Dolj's members are in your guild. Many are/were in 2 guilds at once. Taken, and Dolj. They/I won't tell who. Go ahead and keep investigating. I wasn't a spy, I had friends in Taken.

YOUR guild is a disgrace and I strongly recommend everyone to stay away from that guild. I won't even go further in details because your guild is doing a good job at showing what it is all about... a pi*ce of sh*t guild that has no respect for anyone. They deserve to be locked out. Plain and simple.

Good thing you bleeped piece.

[Dany]

Good thing you bleeped piece.

/cryyyyy Troubled (who the f*** is this?) cursed at me. /sarcasm off :confused:

[dustysr06]

/cryyyyy Troubled (who the f*** is this?) cursed at me. /sarcasm off :confused:

sounds to me like you actually got kicked for being a dumbass, which i think makes you perfect dolj material!


..come play red tho, we need more dumbasses! :D

[Dany]

sounds to me like you actually got kicked for being a dumbass, which i think makes you perfect dolj material!


..come play red tho, we need more dumbasses! :D

Too bad I'm not on red or I'd track his arse.

I don't mind what you or other people think about what I am or not.

I'm just warning people, there's many members ATM that have stop raiding because of bad leadership, especially from the officers. The leader of Taken isn't really playing much atm and probably have no idea of what is really going on in his guild. I'm thinking, this might be the work of one of his puppet officer. Just my opinion. Believe what you want, this is only a fair warning to anyone thinking about joining that guild. You better be a well known old member of that guild to be heard (hint hint).

[Troubled]

You are an asset to RNF. Never stop crying.

[Kekephee]

AG, IB, TMO, and BDA all had mages sitting too close to Sev - and facing the wrong direction because no one apparently knows where Sev spawns.

God I wish Sev had just been running around behind all the trackers for like 8 hours

[Kekephee]

He had to go on an investigation or something or some Keke tard told him?



You assume that my crush on you is as big as your crush on me


It isn't, I said 0 words to anyone about you nor did I think about you after I asked you why you had decided to join Taken after screaming on these boards for months about how stupid everyone was who participated in the rotation and your response was WHAT ARE YOU A FUCKING DETECTIVE GET A LIFE

[Cecily]

You are an asset to RNF. Never stop crying.

Assuming you're quoting the "Welcome to BDA" post to new members.

[Troubled]

Assuming you're quoting the "Welcome to BDA" post to new members.

Off my nuts, tranny.

[Cecily]

Literal low blow, asshole.

[Godefroi]

Troubled just neeeever stops crying, probably what got him promoted to officer in BDA lol ;)

[Troubled]

Troubled just neeeever stops crying, probably what got him promoted to officer in BDA lol ;)

http://files.sharenator.com/look20kitty20a20wizard_Are_You_A_Wizard-s824x1000-149180-580.jpg

[Cecily]

http://i.imgur.com/iXgERnf.png

Is Bregan D’Aerth For You?
Do you have a job?
Do you have a family?
Do you have a social life?
Do you a serious problem with the gay agenda that is taking over America?
Do you have deep seated loathing of transsexuals?
Do you feel that a woman's place is in the kitchen?
Did you answer yes to any or all of these questions? Congratulations, Bregan D’Aerth could be the guild for you!

[Bazia]

while I don't have anything against trannies they do creep me out

unnatural or awkard or something

[Cecily]

Most people get creeped out when dealing with unholy minions of Satan.

[Herp]

What amazes me is how Deru and Sirken are focusing on the initial engagement and saying everyone screwed up and how they could ding everyone, but that ignore one major point: Taken made a conscious effort to PULL and KILL a dragon that they didn't have FTE for.

THAT is the only real issue here. And by so doing, they denied every other guild even an opportunity to kill the dragon the right way. Oh they say that they petitioned for a ruling but as has been said before, the ONLY thing to do was NOT engage and wait for FTE. But no, they made a conscious decision to deny anyone else even the opportunity to do it the right way.

This is my question/concern as well, in which GMs ignored completely. You don't kill a boss unless it is your unquestionable FTE. Other guilds have done hard time and paid the price for this. I'll end it at that.

[Troubled]

Is the word tranny an insult or something?

[Culkasi]

We could not care less about this Sev tbh. But, if this incident stops the coth sock on FFA spawns then it's by far the most valuable Sev that's ever spawned imo.

YES!

[khanable]

Is the word tranny an insult or something?

yes

http://i.imgur.com/VA0zJhp.jpg

[SyanideGas]

yes

http://i.imgur.com/VA0zJhp.jpg

Lol gdi Trouble

[Swish]

I like how Catherin calls for a stop to CotH race on mobs when she was the one who escalated the need for all guilds to do it in the first place.

I thought Catherin ate a ban for autofire? Shit's all wrong if she's still MQ'ing epics that way.

[arsenalpow]

TMO has draco FTE. IB kills it. IB suspended.
Taken has Nagafen FTE. Taken kills it with BDA assisting on the last 10%. BDA suspended.
AG has Sev FTE. Taken kills it. No punishments.

[Scoresby]

Quoted from Catherine on Raid Discussion...

"Going to have to suspend everyone, so what exactly is there to negotiate... Who gets the longest suspension?

Everyone but Taken, Ateam, and... Omni? were sitting directly on the spawn.

Everyone but Ateam inappropriately engages the dragon

Taken kills the Dragon."

So at what point in the multi-hour poopsock did you realize multiple people were parked on the dragon's spawn and likely to cause a shitstorm when it showed up. Why not bring up a concern about this ahead of time since you obviously know what's up?

Also, there's a huge difference in other "individuals" tagging a mob that has been aggro'd in aforementioned shitstorm, and leading your entire guild to willfully kill it. Especially with the entire zone pointing out you didn't have FTE!

Keep riding that high horse though.

[zanderklocke]

TMO has draco FTE. IB kills it. IB suspended.
Taken has Nagafen FTE. Taken kills it with BDA assisting on the last 10%. BDA suspended.
AG has Sev FTE. Taken kills it. No punishments.

Well...AG's FTE wasn't legitimate, so that might have some affect on this. However, Taken did not let the mob reset. Shrug.

[arsenalpow]

Well...AG's FTE wasn't legitimate, so that might have some affect on this. However, Taken did not let the mob reset. Shrug.

The rule is if it isn't your FTE then you don't touch the mob. There's no caveats, there's no special circumstances governing illegal FTEs. The mob must reset. Period.

[Sckrilla]

^^Chest speaks the truth. There's no grey area, it's pretty clear. If guilds were punished in the past for the same shit, there is absolutely no reason for Taken to not eat a suspension for this. No FTE, no kill.

[dustysr06]

Has taken been raid suspended ever?...

[Argh]

A warning and not a suspension is in line with former first offense FTE punishment.

[arsenalpow]

A warning and not a suspension is in line with former first offense FTE punishment.

Where was BDA's warning for killing 10% of a Nagafen?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Well...AG's FTE wasn't legitimate, so that might have some affect on this. However, Taken did not let the mob reset. Shrug.

The staff has been pretty adamant about telling players to not judge the worthiness of any particular FTE and to instead let them sort it out after the fact. Thus, AG's FTE, good or bad, shouldn't really play a part in the consideration of Taken's actions.

[Hitpoint]

The rule is if it isn't your FTE then you don't touch the mob. There's no caveats, there's no special circumstances governing illegal FTEs. The mob must reset. Period.

Yea, pretty much this.

They were warned the entire time they were pulling Sev too. There is three minutes of chat log where people are telling them that the pull had to be dropped so there could be a new FTE message. They chose to ignore people who are familiar with the rules, and take their chances with a GM decision. Which should never be the case.

You are supposed to ALWAYS respect the FTE shout. No exceptions. Even if you think the other guild is kiting, or cheating, or their pull is illegitimate in some way. You cannot pull it off them because the FTE is not credited to you, and players do not have the power to overrule an FTE message. You have to let them do whatever it is they are going to do with it (which should be to drop the pull if they are smart) and let the GMs handle it. The GMs have ruled on this very clearly in the past. Numerous examples include FE pulling fay off a blatant kite, pulling gore after an FTE snipe (which was wrong and bad), pulling tal off an alleged kite, and engaging CT off another alleged snipe (which turned out not to be the case). In each of these situations, it was made clear that it was wrong to disregard the FTE shout, no matter how illegitimate we thought the pull was.

The correct thing to do on this Sev, was for nobody to pull Sev in. Everyone who was on the agro list should die/FD/camp/gate/coth themselves, whatever they can do to lose agro immediately. And allow a new FTE to go off.

I don't care whether Taken is suspended or not. The rules are clear and I guess technically Taken should be suspended if we're trying to be consistent in rulings. But rulings have not been consistent here lately, and maybe that's just something we have to accept. I do hope this is the last time this lesson needs to be learned. If the FTE doesn't belong to someone in your guild, or someone who you're willing to forfeit all loot to (assuming both parties combined are under the two tracker limit), then you absolutely cannot kill the mob. No exceptions.

[Hitpoint]

Where was BDA's warning for killing 10% of a Nagafen?

He was over 30%. They were wiping clearly. Had Naggy been 10% he would have been running and jumping in would not have been necessary.

I think all guilds should be past the point of warnings for this. Too many suspensions have been handed out already for not respecting FTE shouts. Even class R guilds should have leaders who are aware of the current rules and who can make correct decisions, especially if they want to compete for FFA spawns.

[Rais]

I think it's pretty clear by now that Lostprofits is really Catherine and never left Taken. He finished his GED and added a voice changer to keep his guild. I can understand playing dumb not to get your guild suspended. Yet doing shit over and over with the same person in the leadership role shows there is an issue with this person, and the simple concept of following rules.

[arsenalpow]

That's my issue, consistency. I was on vacation when Sadad got dragged to the table by Derubael and TMO over an issue that was nearly 90 days old that Sirken personally told me was squashed. We engaged a FFA Naggy at 10% when Taken had FTE. Taken wasn't likely to wipe and one of our officers made the call to get some hits in. Unbrella demanded a Nagafen because Taken could have wiped thus preventing a TMO engage. Derubael decided an appropriate punishment was to leverage the class R rotation slot we have for Naggy into being skipped the next time up. I fully disagreed with the punishment on multiple levels.

Taken killing Sev was so much more blatant. I'm fucking shocked that the staff made this ruling with multiple incidences of precedence that have already been resolved. It's not consistent at all. Why should BDA lose a class R target over an FFA encounter and Taken gets a warning? What's the logical precedence to determine that? If the answer is "because the staff said so" then expect this type of fallout every fucking time because when the staff isn't consistent there will be questions and cries of favoritism.

[doyoueventrainbro]

Why does Catherin get to skate again?

She gets caught auto-firing and doesn't get banned. Third party software is like the BIGGEST NONO on this fucking server.

He directs her guild to kill a mob they do not have FTE on, and they get a warning.

So, two of the biggest NONOs on this server, two things that will get a person or guild suspended / banned, are being overlooked.

Why is Catherin allowed to do whatever the fuck it wants?

[doyoueventrainbro]

Sirken clearly states that IF YOU DON'T HAVE FTE, DON'T FUCKING KILL IT.

Stand by your own statements.

[Signal]

Not to cause a stir with you Chest just to clarify. I think the problem with that Nagafen was 2 guilds participated in killing it while having 2 trackers on the spawn to engage it each. It essentially let BDA and Taken use 4 trackers and 2 guilds to engage a Dragon with and kill it while every other guild was restricted to 2 each ? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but that to me seemed like the bigger infraction on that Nagafen.

Not saying it was a worked out plan between the 2 guilds to work together killing it. However, the moment you decided to engage to help them finish killing it you essentially made it 1 raid force with 4 trackers there.

[Hitpoint]

That's my issue, consistency. I was on vacation when Sadad got dragged to the table by Derubael and TMO over an issue that was nearly 90 days old that Sirken personally told me was squashed. We engaged a FFA Naggy at 10% when Taken had FTE. Taken wasn't likely to wipe and one of our officers made the call to get some hits in. Unbrella demanded a Nagafen because Taken could have wiped thus preventing a TMO engage. Derubael decided an appropriate punishment was to leverage the class R rotation slot we have for Naggy into being skipped the next time up. I fully disagreed with the punishment on multiple levels.

Taken killing Sev was so much more blatant. I'm fucking shocked that the staff made this ruling with multiple incidences of precedence that have already been resolved. It's not consistent at all. Why should BDA lose a class R target over an FFA encounter and Taken gets a warning? What's the logical precedence to determine that? If the answer is "because the staff said so" then expect this type of fallout every fucking time because when the staff isn't consistent there will be questions and cries of favoritism.

After a two (or was it three?) month old petition was finally examined and ruled on, Tmo got banned from VP for a week and our loot was deleted from 4 legitimate kills on the previous VP. Essentially losing loot off 4 kills that we worked for, and potentially 6 more dragons the next week. When our competition essentially did the same thing two weeks later that got us suspended, they had to forfeit a single Druushk to us.

Rulings here may never be consistent. And I wish that wasn't the case. But the only thing we can take away from it is that guild negotiations need to happen, they need to be fair and reasonable, and we can't let issues be brought to the GMs. This is what the staff wants. If one guild comes to another with a reasonable grievance, dropping a pull, or forfeiting a spawn, or giving up the loot, needs to be something all guilds are open to. Letting grudges and fucking retarded politics bullshit come in the way of player negotiations, is in nobody's best interest. And it seems like this happens more often than not.

Also, I don't know who informed you, but that Naggy was at 30%, had not dropped in health for a long time, and the last handful of people were being summoned and killed. I watched the whole thing, probably even had fraps of it at some point.

[Hitpoint]

If one guild comes to another with a reasonable grievance; dropping a pull, or forfeiting a spawn, or giving up the loot, needs to be something all guilds are open to.

Edited for confusing sentence structure.

[Signal]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The mages that got added to Sev's aggro list immediately and 20 seconds later was no fault of their own Derubel. It happened because first Nemce set off an AoE on the mages from IB and their pets attacked Sev. Theya dragged Sev closer to other mages and his 2nd AoE went off and aggroed the next group of pets when his AoE refreshed. Bards in the group with these mages were added because they were getting coth'ed and hitting those mages with songs. Them getting added to the aggro list was the direct fault of Nemce and Theya.

[arsenalpow]

Not to cause a stir with you Chest just to clarify. I think the problem with that Nagafen was 2 guilds participated in killing it while having 2 trackers on the spawn to engage it each. It essentially let BDA and Taken use 4 trackers and 2 guilds to engage a Dragon with and kill it while every other guild was restricted to 2 each ? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but that to me seemed like the bigger infraction on that Nagafen.

Not saying it was a worked out plan between the 2 guilds to work together killing it. However, the moment you decided to engage to help them finish killing it you essentially made it 1 raid force with 4 trackers there.

There was no prior discussion to work together on that kill. If we were working together we would have engaged alongside them from the start. The entire situation was a hypothetical. Taken might have wiped and TMO might have picked up FTE after but BDA jumped in for the last percentages of the kill and now we're class R suspended for an FFA mob. Additionally i don't even remember where our trackers were for that engage, they might have been at the zoneline. I didn't see any fraps or screenshots which seems to be the default requirement for these situations.

This isn't the point though. The point is there have been multiple instances where guilds have been suspended for killing something that wasn't their FTE, which happens to be the current situation. Who was or wasn't on the encounter log is irrelevant. The entire zone knew the FTE was bogus, anyone on that encounter log should have bailed out ASAP to get a fresh reset, instead Taken killed it. They didn't accidentally kill it, it was voluntary and calculated. Intent means something.

[Hitpoint]

From Derubael in raid discussion forums. Figure I'll just respond here.

^as you can see by my excellent mspaint circles, There are multiple guilds who grabbed aggro even 30 seconds or a minute after the engage went off. Every one of these guilds are potentially breaking the rule you are referencing above. And of course we'd have to hit AG as well, for the FTE tracker fuckup. So we're basically looking at suspending 3-4 guilds from the next Sev engage - including BDA - over this one pull.

None of you guys should have any business being on that log 30 - 60 seconds after the fact if we are going to follow the "fte is king" rule here.

I circled the length as well, representing how long each player had aggro (ie, these people did not camp to get off the hate list if their 'length' is over ~30 seconds)

This is why we aren't suspending Taken, or anyone else. This situation is not the same as other FTE violations we've had in the past, nor is it close enough to the Nagafen situation Chest is referring to for it to be used as a precedent.

Edit: I forgot to circle the IB and TMO guys, but I circled their length, which was almost 2 minutes in IB's case and nearly 3 in TMO's.

Being on a mobs agro list isn't against the rules unless they cause some kind of interference by pulling agro or setting off an aoe. Our pullers stayed in game to tail the dragon with fraps since they were the only ones there, and and would have WC capped out immediately if the pull had been dropped. Which still isn't the best choice and they probably should have camped immediately, but at least it isn't a rules violation. No rules were broken by anyone who got on that dragons agro list, except the mag who initially agro'd, which he rectified by immediately dying and then NOT pulling the dragon in. The violation which matters here, is a guild killing a mob which they do not have FTE on.

[Derubael]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The mages that got added to Sev's aggro list immediately and 20 seconds later was no fault of their own Derubel. It happened because first Nemce set off an AoE on the mages from IB and their pets attacked Sev. Theya dragged Sev closer to other mages and his 2nd AoE went off and aggroed the next group of pets when his AoE refreshed. Bards in the group with these mages were added because they were getting coth'ed and hitting those mages with songs. Them getting added to the aggro list was the direct fault of Nemce and Theya.

We understood that part. No one should have been standing that close to Sev, in case someone showed up who didn't have faction work done. Can't just assume everyone knows what they're doing on an FFA target. You were all at fault for being too close, which is why this whole thing happened.

[Hitpoint]

Like I said, I don't care about the ruling personally. No big deal. But lets not pretend like we all did something wrong here.

[Swish]

http://i.imgur.com/NRIPjyc.gif

[Locust]

and taken wasn't at fault for deliberately killing the dragon

[Nuktari]

http://i.imgur.com/NRIPjyc.gif

can i borrow that when ur done?

[Atalya]

Way less hassle for GMs, Rogean and pals.

Blue can't police itself, tears guaranteed every time. I hope the basement dwellers sleep okay tonight.

I hope you enjoy the fact there was more people in TT at that time then there ever will be on RED's entire server. Fucking losers

[arsenalpow]

Nemce didn't know where Sev spawned. Warning for AG for not knowing something and getting other people AE'd. After that anyone that was on the encounter list and didn't actively try to get off it should be dealt with. Theya dragged Sev to TT under a false FTE, that's blatantly wrong. Taken killed the dragon under false FTE, also blatantly wrong. Don't paint everyone with the same brush just because it was a clusterfuck, FFA mobs are always a clusterfuck but respecting an FTE usually happens.

[Argh]

The only reason there are so many people on the encounter log is because a bard chose to pull it from spawn to the zone line where there were 160 other people waiting. Nobody there expected the mob to be pulled considering everyone in the zone was shouting/ooc'ing that Nemce was a tracker and there had to be a new FTE before the pull. I don't think anyone else considered that an illegal FTE meant that the mob was just up for grabs, since that would mean there would be no FTE message to go off of.

Most if not all people outside of taken on the logs show up there doing 0 dmg/hate, and when it was clear Taken was killing the dragon why would you cap/camp/gate aggro to get off the hate list for a reset that you know isn't coming?

No other guild is at fault for what happened, and no other guild did anything wrong by simply showing up on the encounter log.

[Signal]

We understood that part. No one should have been standing that close to Sev, in case someone showed up who didn't have faction work done. Can't just assume everyone knows what they're doing on an FFA target. You were all at fault for being too close, which is why this whole thing happened.

Except obviously most of them were not too close. The only people to get hit with the initial AE was Nemce and the 2 IB mages (If it wasn't Nemce first I imagine the IB mages were close enough to face aggro too if they got hit by the AE). No one else got added till Theya aggroed Sev which took a conscious effort to do something to the dragon.

The next mages to be added to the encounter log was a full 18 seconds after Theya got added to the hate list. This means Theya continuing the initial FTE and having aggro around the 2nd group of people caused more mages to get AE'ed further away from the spawn. It shows who is in group with each other on the right hand side. The obvious effect of the mages pets attacking when they got AoE'ed caused the bards that got coth'ed added to the list as well via their songs. My only thoughts are "Why did mages have pets up ?". That is the only fault I can find for those mages as they didn't consciously seek out to aggro Sev.

[Swish]

I hope you enjoy the fact there was more people in TT at that time then there ever will be on RED's entire server. Fucking losers

:(

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/crying-waterfalls.gif

[Lisset]

As much as I have enjoyed your posts Swish, I'm just gonna go ahead and block you. You've turned into nothing more than a whore for red lately and that's just sad.

[Shinko]

learn to not be KOS to dragons

[Troubled]

Not sure why Deru still saying multiple guilds would be suspended. Being on the hate list isn't against any written rules.

[sulpher01]

Not sure why Deru still saying multiple guilds would be suspended. Being on the hate list isn't against any written rules.

What im wondering... Why is he focusing so hard on something that isnt a rule, and completely ignoring the thing that is?? Tryin pretty hard to help taken out heh...

[Swish]

As much as I have enjoyed your posts Swish, I'm just gonna go ahead and block you. You've turned into nothing more than a whore for red lately and that's just sad.

Truly I'm saddened that people want to see its destruction/demise with such enthusiasm. If anyone has read 1984 by George Orwell I like it to the scenes where people scream hate at "the enemy" on the telescreens (Eurasia or whoever).

If you haven't read it, you really should btw :)

Not sure why Deru still saying multiple guilds would be suspended. Being on the hate list isn't against any written rules.

If anything that's encouraging something to be written in.

Perhaps there'll be a released P99 rulebook pdf in the future with appropriate sections, sub sections and sub sub sections? Something to think about.

[Juryiel]

It's actually a bit disheartening to see Deru saying all the guilds there are 'equally' guilty when most guilds there actively made sure to not pull Sev, and then when it was brought to zone tried to make sure their members did not engage. I don't really care what Taken's punishment is or if there is one at all, those are politics I don't care to get involved in. But looking at that hatelist and the number of people in zone it's clear that one guild had its members attack Sev while most of the rest generally do not have a kill-force on Sev's hate list. Given that Sev was pulled to the place where every single guild was camped, any guild intending to kill it would have way more people on hate list if that was their intention. Whereas now, nearly 65% of the people on there are Taken, while the remaining ~35% is split among many guilds with the next highest up being ~13% . Clearly not everyone is 'equally' guilty.

Also I can already foresee problems if it becomes an official rule to not accidentally agro mobs. But that's an RnF thread for another day :P

[Ravager]

Pretty sure he knows they messed up the ruling but GM ruling is law in this land and he can't back down. Kinda like arguing balls and strikes.

It's okay, we forgive you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ7tIfWD_FM

[Man0warr]

Taken took a calculated risk, probably thinking at worst their loot would be removed (and deny other guilds a chance at loot), and at best they could rules lawyer for some Sev loot.

The GMs have rewarded their risk.

[Argh]

How is getting all loot deleted a reward?

[arsenalpow]

How is getting all loot deleted a reward?

It's not really, but what I think he means is that killing a dragon that had an illegal FTE was a calculated risk. I'm sure Taken was hoping that at best they'd get to keep the loot and at worst the loot would be deleted when the "at worst" scenario should have been something like a raid suspension + deleted loot. They got off easy.

[Locust]

problem is, other than Taken, all guilds present for FFA Severilious were playing by the written rule that you do not pull and kill the raid target until FTE resets

Taken decided to break the rule and pull/kill Severilous anyway

Taken was punished by having loot taken away, but every other guild still lost their opportunity at a raid target as a direct result of Taken's actions

how does the engage being a clusterfuck trump that?

[Hitpoint]

How is getting all loot deleted a reward?

They made sure class C couldn't get it. Diabolical.

[Rais]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The CSR staff to a extent understand game mechanics. By the time I left staff this year, the last time I had raided on p99 was April 2012. Unless Aussie is in some top guild (doubtful) I was the last person to even raid on p99. Mechanics change over time on this server, and everything isn't like how it was on live. The staff knows a majority of stuff, yet are people just like everyone else and don't know everything.

So the CSR typically try and keep up to date on everything. Some more so than others. Somethings aren't working as they should be, and no one reports a bug report on it as example passing agro off. GMs aren't allowed to play on the server. To know every single aspect of everything, you have to keep a proficiency up on it or you lose it. It's the same thing as a CSR member who quits(not allowed to) playing and it's hard to keep up unless you tag along with some raiding guild and watch raids ask questions. Of course the buddy buddy system will evolve into hey add me on skype we can bs all the time comes into play. So then you add in being closer to some guilds than others that will give the benefit of doubt more often than not. (Look at the past, and you will see clear examples)

Now raid disputes and decisions are left to Sirken and Derubael. I think it worked better with just Sirken and having a quick little meeting of the staff and come to a conclusion. Not everyone got what they wanted, but the bottom line of facts were laid out on both sides of parties being bitches. As to the final decision, Sirken likes to be fluid, and being fluid to every single variable in every petition will not create consistency. As we see today and past rulings, no matter the GM they tend to try and be fluid and add in every possible factor and get tangled up with petition-quest. It just doesn't work. There needs to be a black and white line.

Now we have two chiefs who want to make the final say. Although it seems like they don't agree and contradict each other at times and it has already caused a few people ranting away about it, but I am sure they are on the same page most of the time. I know they confer with Rogean at times and if they have questions about mechanics or logs, Nilbog is always there happy to answer any question or test something asap. Nilbog has always been quick to test stuff, sometimes as we talked about it. Need logs, Rogean was there to do it.

They have the tools to work with. I would say a small handful of decisions that were "over turned" was because some weird mechanic came up, or misunderstanding. Overall they try and make the best decisions they can, sometimes it doesn't seem so as a player. To say the GMs have a unwritten rule about not being wrong, is wrong itself. A few raid suspensions were overturned and publicly stated and they are still posted in the raid section. Give them credit where credit is due.

[Signal]

Pretty sure he knows they messed up the ruling but GM ruling is law in this land and he can't back down. Kinda like arguing balls and strikes.

It's okay, we forgive you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ7tIfWD_FM

Except when those mistakes are occurring in most of the decisions they are making lately. They keep rewarding the people that actually screwed up it looks like.

[Freakish]

Its ok, we didn't get FTE? Lets just kill it and get the loot deleted. If it wasn't our dragon, what does it matter?

[Locust]

Its ok, we didn't get FTE? Lets just kill it and get the loot deleted. If it wasn't our dragon, what does it matter?

new addendum to the raid rules:

if a non-FTE guild kills a raid mob which has more than two (2) guilds on the engage list, loot is deleted upon death.

no punishment for the offending guild

[Funkutron5000]

new addendum to the raid rules:

if a non-FTE guild kills a raid mob which has more than two (2) guilds on the engage list, loot is deleted upon death.

no punishment for the offending guild

the griefing possibilities for this are damn near endless. It's beautiful.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Maybe Taken should just "handle it internally" like TMO does to get around punishments.

[Herp]

We understood that part. No one should have been standing that close to Sev, in case someone showed up who didn't have faction work done. Can't just assume everyone knows what they're doing on an FFA target. You were all at fault for being too close, which is why this whole thing happened.

...what about the part where Taken pulled it on top of 160 people and killed it anyways with no legal FTE?


Hello? Is this thing working??

[Detoxx]

The amount of tears over this is crazy. This was the best possible outcome of the shitshow knows as Sev 2014. Please get rid of the horrible CoTH ducking rules, and we all should consider this a success.

Being the big bad class R leader, Chest, and always vying for guilds working together, and such, can't you just make Taken skip the next ffa sev or Class R sev? Your reaction to this shit, and constantly comparing it to a Naggy that you engaged at "10%" (lol come on now bro, 1. If it was at 10%, he would have been running and you would not have had to help Taken at all, 2. Everyone who has ever played on this server knows you did it only to eliminate any chance that TMO had to get that Naggy.) is unnecessary.

Never forget Sev 2014

[Ele]

Is anyone going to be the first to take a stand and say they aren't going to coth their pullers to the dragon anymore instead of wanting yet another GM enforced rule?

[Detoxx]

Class C is currently LawyerQuest / FrapsQuest
Class R is currently a harmonious rotation between 10+ guilds as negotiated by all 10+ guilds
Class FFA is currently LawyerQuest / FrapsQuest

I think I can identify the offending party.

Sure about that?

[arsenalpow]

Sure about that?

Yes.

[Detoxx]

Yes.

K so why can't you guys take your harmony and work an agreement out with taken about this whole sev fiasco. Instead, you're crying on the forums and demanding reprieve.

I thought it was all rainbows and butterflies over there in class r?

[Locust]

K so why can't you guys take your harmony and work an agreement out with taken about this whole sev fiasco. Instead, you're crying on the forums and demanding reprieve.

I thought it was all rainbows and butterflies over there in class r?

this wouldn't happen in class R because we rotate, is the point, i think

[Wrench]

The amount of tears over this is crazy. This was the best possible outcome of the shitshow knows as Sev 2014. Please get rid of the horrible CoTH ducking rules, and we all should consider this a success.

Being the big bad class R leader, Chest, and always vying for guilds working together, and such, can't you just make Taken skip the next ffa sev or Class R sev? Your reaction to this shit, and constantly comparing it to a Naggy that you engaged at "10%" (lol come on now bro, 1. If it was at 10%, he would have been running and you would not have had to help Taken at all, 2. Everyone who has ever played on this server knows you did it only to eliminate any chance that TMO had to get that Naggy.) is unnecessary.

Never forget Sev 2014

hate chest as much as the next guy, but even i think taken should be getting a timeout

hopefully your just trolling him

[Detoxx]

hate chest as much as the next guy, but even i think taken should be getting a timeout

hopefully your just trolling him

Im not disagreeing with that at all. Was just stating that since from what I can see, TMO or IB dont really give a fuck, so why cant you guys all just work it out?

[Fuddwin]

Poor Chest (Variety)

[chief]

An officer broke the FTE rule, Shouldnt that be an automatic suspension especially after said officer just got back from a suspension recently (for using autofire)

[Ella`Ella]

The amount of tears over this is crazy. This was the best possible outcome of the shitshow knows as Sev 2014. Please get rid of the horrible CoTH ducking rules, and we all should consider this a success.

Being the big bad class R leader, Chest, and always vying for guilds working together, and such, can't you just make Taken skip the next ffa sev or Class R sev? Your reaction to this shit, and constantly comparing it to a Naggy that you engaged at "10%" (lol come on now bro, 1. If it was at 10%, he would have been running and you would not have had to help Taken at all, 2. Everyone who has ever played on this server knows you did it only to eliminate any chance that TMO had to get that Naggy.) is unnecessary.

Never forget Sev 2014

Detoxx, Chest really doesn't care about the Taken situation at all. He's using this as a crutch to try and worm his way out of their Nagafen suspension.

[TMBLOW]

An officer broke the FTE rule, Shouldnt that be an automatic suspension especially after said officer just got back from a suspension recently (for using autofire)

except for the fact no one had FTE so there was no rule to break.

Nemce's FTE basically did not exist.

Encounter logs can show who actually got the first to engage that wasnt a tracker, the yellow text just graphically displays that information.

[kotton05]

The only reason there are so many people on the encounter log is because a bard chose to pull it from spawn to the zone line where there were 160 other people waiting. Nobody there expected the mob to be pulled considering everyone in the zone was shouting/ooc'ing that Nemce was a tracker and there had to be a new FTE before the pull. I don't think anyone else considered that an illegal FTE meant that the mob was just up for grabs, since that would mean there would be no FTE message to go off of.

Most if not all people outside of taken on the logs show up there doing 0 dmg/hate, and when it was clear Taken was killing the dragon why would you cap/camp/gate aggro to get off the hate list for a reset that you know isn't coming?

No other guild is at fault for what happened, and no other guild did anything wrong by simply showing up on the encounter log.

This, wtf happened deru ur ruling sucks and has no basis.

[sulpher01]

I think we can all agree taken is a bunch of asshats?

[bigsykedaddy]

now if you new to p99 ruling, you cant pull with trackers

Mind you Taken was the guild to push for this rule

[Swish]

The amount of tears over this is crazy.

[slappytwotoes]

The amount of tears over this is crazy.

So much built up RnF angst... this place been bone-dry for a month

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Mind you Taken was the guild to push for this rule

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1532259&postcount=16

Actually I'm pretty sure Mazam made the post that got it pushed through, and Unbrella also credits class C for it.

When it works against you, you cry foul and blame Taken.

Make up your fucking minds already?

[Locust]

you do realize the yellow text was put in so players could police themselves and behave better upon a dragon being engaged in front of a zerg of guilds. just a graphical representation that is avail to avoid confusion....the GMs still have the power to look up encounter logs and point out who has legit FTE according to the rules.

what occurred last night was the very first instance of a dragon being killed without a 'legal' yellow text, something that has never happened since the autofire/tracker rule update

Your flowchart became null and void soon as new rules were implemented and changed the fact that sometimes a FTE shout is not actually legit FTE.

you guys are very good at ignoring every other moving part in this situation that you are guilty of too. As well as this situation being completely different from anything else that has ever happened.

Taken sought to finally receive some direction on what would happen in this unique situation. Now we all have it. I hear all of this talk of negotiation, but there is nothing that can possibly be negotiated because of the facts of the situation that you keep ignoring. You just want punishment.

Enjoy your forumquesting.

unique situation:

a tracker engages a raid target (illegal), dies and loses FTE, but not before other guilds engage said raid target

not a raid rule:

raid targets are FFA if the FTE message was illegal

well defined raid rule:

don't kill a mob unless you have FTE

guilds who didn't break this rule:

TMO, IB, BDA, A-Team, etc

guilds who definitely broke this rule:

Taken

things that don't matter:

how many guilds were on the agro list
how long it would take everyone to clear agro
whether or not you were confused about the rules

Taken's actions cost the entire raid scene a Severilous and 16 hours of tracking

of course we want punishment

every other guild there could have killed Severilous yesterday, but they respected the rules of engagement

[Detoxx]

unique situation:

a tracker engages a raid target (illegal), dies and loses FTE, but not before other guilds engage said raid target

not a raid rule:

raid targets are FFA if the FTE message was illegal

well defined raid rule:

don't kill a mob unless you have FTE

guilds who didn't break this rule:

TMO, IB, BDA, A-Team, etc

guilds who definitely broke this rule:

Taken

things that don't matter:

how many guilds were on the agro list
how long it would take everyone to clear agro
whether or not you were confused about the rules

Taken's actions cost the entire raid scene a Severilous and 16 hours of tracking

of course we want punishment

every other guild there could have killed Severilous yesterday, but they respected the rules of engagement

This is RnF, please refrain from using logic

[Colgate]

wow blue server raid scene one of the most pathetic things i've ever seen

so glad that when i want to kill severilous i know exactly when it spawns and i can kill the conpetition and loot my glorious pixels without a GM having to step in 8)

[Detoxx]

wow blue server raid scene one of the most pathetic things i've ever seen

so glad that when i want to kill severilous i know exactly when it spawns and i can kill the conpetition and loot my glorious pixels without a GM having to step in 8)

Yeah, so much competition.....

Dead server is dead, welcome to blue forums

[Colgate]

enjoy your denial 8)

[Argh]

How many guilds are on red now?

[Colgate]

endgame guilds? 4 or 5

[Argh]

Guilds, not people

[Troubled]

lol

[Troubled]

Recruiting from blue to red is toxic.

[Colgate]

red99 launch showed us what it was like when bluebies play on red

700 population day one, 300 population after a week because you guys couldn't handle it

[Troubled]

So you already know where we're staying.

[Culkasi]

YES!

Is anyone going to be the first to take a stand and say they aren't going to coth their pullers to the dragon anymore instead of wanting yet another GM enforced rule?

I think I can safely say that we won't be doing this going forward - this FFA Sev and what happened after is very clear evidence why the coth rule was in place to begin with and that it shouldn't have been removed.

[Sirken]

we discussed SevGate 2014 briefly this evening, enjoy - http://youtu.be/S8pahwY2TGo

[Arteker]

The rule is if it isn't your FTE then you don't touch the mob. There's no caveats, there's no special circumstances governing illegal FTEs. The mob must reset. Period.

what you waited to happen, catherin was found using a 3 party program even going so far to admit it. and she did not get any punishment . you realy think she must be afraid to break standard fte or raid rules when she or him scaped unscratched of using autofire?.

[Swish]

what you waited to happen, catherin was found using a 3 party program even going so far to admit it. and she did not get any punishment .

wasn't there a suspension involved? i do find it hard to believe that causing more heartache (pun intended) for clerics by using autofire isn't a bannable offence.

3rd party programs definitely on the ban list, seems strange.

[Swish]

Catherin dictating the Sev thread in the raid discussion forum on points of etiquette and rules....

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162920

http://i.imgur.com/abLwD5l.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/abLwD5l.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/abLwD5l.gif

[Colgate]

So you already know where we're staying.

i'm not trying to recruit you?

[kotton05]

Deru I'll just leave this here with you. Please review this before hitting Submit when in the Raid forums.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22566&postcount=17

Oh snap. I find this ruling to be the most peculiar. No suspension but it's obviously in violation. Then he said all the others on the aggro list are just as guilty. No we are not. The only problem is not honoring the FTE message by Taken. Which I remember Sirken himself saying the yellow txt rules all. Honor it or feel his suspend stick.. But this time it doesn't apply... I know you do your best deru but this is a 180. Nothing is making sense in the ruling.

[Bazia]

The whining is real

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

#thewhiningisreal

[Zalaerian]

wow blue server raid scene one of the most pathetic things i've ever seen

so glad that when i want to kill severilous i know exactly when it spawns and i can kill the conpetition and loot my glorious pixels without a GM having to step in 8)

:cool::cool:

[Locust]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8pahwY2TGo&t=30m1s

"everybody stole FTE on this target. i don't know why BDA is showing up 30-60 seconds into the engage but they are."

after nemce died i'm pretty sure BDA and every other guild there were trailing the dragon in the event that FTE was clear for a pull.........

Taken decided they were above the law and killed it anyway

cool that you're hating on BDA so much for "getting on the hate list all staggered" though.

perhaps that has something to do with Taken training it around the fucking zone

then killing it

ignoring the rules

----

"enough people fucked up that it made this a clear cut case of just wipe it all clearn, make it a wash, and leave it at that"

seriously?

multiple guilds being on a hate list trumps kill stealing a raid target?

can we get an official addendum to the rules please so those of us who TRY TO PLAY BY THEM don't get fucked in the ass by arbitrary rulings?

what a fucking joke

[Signal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8pahwY2TGo&t=30m1s

"everybody stole FTE on this target. i don't know why BDA is showing up 30-60 seconds into the engage but they are."

after nemce died i'm pretty sure BDA and every other guild there were trailing the dragon in the event that FTE was clear for a pull.........

Taken decided they were above the law and killed it anyway

cool that you're hating on BDA so much for "getting on the hate list all staggered" though.

perhaps that has something to do with Taken training it around the fucking zone

then killing it

ignoring the rules

----

"enough people fucked up that it made this a clear cut case of just wipe it all clearn, make it a wash, and leave it at that"

seriously?

multiple guilds being on a hate list trumps kill stealing a raid target?

can we get an official addendum to the rules please so those of us who TRY TO PLAY BY THEM don't get fucked in the ass by arbitrary rulings?

what a fucking joke

New raid strategy. Get FTE with trackers and make sure everyone gets on the hate list too (Which is pretty easy to do). That way no one ever gets to kill anything legitimately again!!!!

[Signal]

Also Derubel saying he doesn't know how those people got on the hate list...That is bad. It happened because Theya kept aggro and set an AE off on top of pet classes that were grouped with bards....

[Susvain2]

tldr: tmo had this dragon in the bag hours before the pop

other guilds were dumb(dontknow where sev pops) and ruined it for tmo

[Hitpoint]

If you don't know where Sev spawns after 4 years. Do everyone else a favor, and refrain from competing on FFA spawns until you've done your research. You can ask someone to leak you the spawn location. Or you can just watch where class C trackers are standing every single week, and watch for the mob to spawn one time. People asking for the GMs to give out the spawn location for every are ridiculous. In one spawn cycle, you can find out where a mob spawns, and your guild will have that info for ever. There is no excuse for anyone to be competing for an FFA mob, and not know it's spawn location.

And it's even more stupid for the guilds who DO know where Sev spawns, to put their kos mages there anyway. Taken and whoever else, BDA? I don't know who's mages were there. Just assume class C knows what they are doing, and don't just blindly follow what they do. What the hell did you guys think was going to happen if a dragon spawned on top of them? Also, why do those mages have pets up? Obviously he's going to aoe immediately. TMOs mage deliberately never made a pet for this. Rational thinking goes a long way when competing for spawns.

[Ciroco]

You can ask someone to leak you the spawn location.

Hitpoint, can I have a list of dragon spawn locations plz? Thx

[Hitpoint]

Hitpoint, can I have a list of dragon spawn locations plz? Thx

Well, someone you know. This kind of info does get leaked sometimes.

[Ciroco]

Also

Just assume class C knows what they are doing, and don't just blindly follow what they do.

People assuming class C knows what they are doing is precisely the reason why they get blindly followed.

Telling guilds that they can't attempt mobs without knowing their exact spawn point is pretty condescending, especially with the raid rules like this that reward (KoS) mages for being as close as possible while staying outside of aggro range. That's not easy to pinpoint, and I'm surprised this hasn't come up sooner.

[Hitpoint]

Also



People assuming class C knows what they are doing is precisely the reason why they get blindly followed.

Telling guilds that they can't attempt mobs without knowing their exact spawn point is pretty condescending, especially with the raid rules like this that reward (KoS) mages for being as close as possible while staying outside of aggro range. That's not easy to pinpoint, and I'm surprised this hasn't come up sooner.

Well look how much of a shitshow this turned into. If you don't know where the mob spawns, and another guild does. How can you possibly expect to get FTE? The chances are very small. I'd just wait there and find out where the mob actually spawns, and give it a real try next time.

I agree that the mage thing is stupid. If the point of the new rules was to encourage racing from zone lines, then this is just a loophole which completely defeats the purpose. TMO and IB have never done it on class C mobs, and I think we can safely assume that they don't want to do it on FFA mobs either. Catherin says she doesn't want it, but she's the one who started it on Sev and naggy, the very first week when nobody else wanted to do it. Chest seems to dislike the mag coth also, as well as some other class R guilds. Hopefully it will go away now. We'll see what guilds decide to continue, and force everyone else to do the same.

[Signal]

Still should be a punishment for taking the law into their own hands in my opinion, if not the entire guild definitely the sole person responsible for creating the mess that ensued

There is no question that Catherin broke rules here. It is just using the GM's lack of knowledge about these encounters and how people get on the hate list as justification for it's cheating.

[Hitpoint]

There is no question that Catherin broke rules here. It is just using the GM's lack of knowledge about these encounters and how people get on the hate list as justification for it's cheating.

It's not lack of knowledge. They definitely know how this stuff works.

We gave up a week of VP, and had the loot of 4 dragons deleted, over an EXTREMELY arguable, and non-malicious rules violation. In what was essentially a grey area of the rules which had not been ruled on, or explored before. Then compare that to this situation. Where Taken maliciously chooses to break the rules and absolutely nothing happens. I think they just want to give Taken a pass for some reason. That's fine I guess. But next time someone in my guild makes an honest mistake I hope they use the same consideration, rather than suspending us for a week.

[Hitpoint]

And this precedent has been established and ruled on, like 10 times before. You always respect the FTE shout, no matter what. There's nothing new about it.

[Locust]

I think they just want to give Taken a pass for some reason. That's fine I guess. But next time someone in my guild makes an honest mistake I hope they use the same consideration, rather than suspending us for a week.

this is why everyone is upset about the ruling. if rules aren't consistently enforced, what's the point of having them?

could you imagine the uproar if TMO had killed Severilous instead of Taken?

do you think you guys would have gotten off as easily?

[Hitpoint]

this is why everyone is upset about the ruling. if rules aren't consistently enforced, what's the point of having them?

could you imagine the uproar if TMO had killed Severilous instead of Taken?

do you think you guys would have gotten off as easily?

If the last ruling against us is any indication of punishment severity; we would probably have been disbanded and officer core all banned.

[Lanuven]

Wheres Fearstalker been? It seems sad to think that this guild who used to be somewhat decent is now harboring such people as Catherin and still holding an officer title of the guild. I guess this goes to show you what their MO is now. Surely they will keep on keeping on if they continue to get verbal warnings at best.

[Exmo]

I still think the best Analogy to this situation is the BDA Suspension for Peeling off what BDA thought was a Stall without allowing the mob (CT? Draco? I don't remember) to reset.

BDA was rightfully suspended and the GM's arguement was that, even if it was a stall, BDA wasn't allowed to make that call, and should never kill anything without an FTE Message. So the Illegal Pull by a tracker doesn't matter. The kill without an FTE Shout should mean a suspension.

[Ravager]

Any guesses on how this will be ruled next time it happens?

[sulpher01]

I still think the best Analogy to this situation is the BDA Suspension for Peeling off what BDA thought was a Stall without allowing the mob (CT? Draco? I don't remember) to reset.

BDA was rightfully suspended and the GM's arguement was that, even if it was a stall, BDA wasn't allowed to make that call, and should never kill anything without an FTE Message. So the Illegal Pull by a tracker doesn't matter. The kill without an FTE Shout should mean a suspension.

Basically this sums it up.. same situation plus a bunch of onlookers and some how the onlookers makes it OK?

So pull whatever you want if there's a bunch of people there.

[Relbaic]

I still think the best Analogy to this situation is the BDA Suspension for Peeling off what BDA thought was a Stall without allowing the mob (CT? Draco? I don't remember) to reset.

BDA was rightfully suspended and the GM's arguement was that, even if it was a stall, BDA wasn't allowed to make that call, and should never kill anything without an FTE Message. So the Illegal Pull by a tracker doesn't matter. The kill without an FTE Shout should mean a suspension.

Draco, but I guess that part of it doesn't really matter. The lack of consistency in the rulings is pretty appalling though.

[Thana8088]

Now come on guys, you weren't there and you don't know what really happened.

Oh wait, yes we do....

[AnOldEnemy]

15 years later, 3 years of kunark later people still take this shit this seriously?

[Wrench]

Wheres Fearstalker been?

honestly was just about to post this exact question

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Fearstalker's got this new thing called a "real life"... y'all should look into it.

[Duckwalk]

Go outside?!?

*insert joke about P99 raiding community being unable to simutaneously collect government welfare and deny pixel welfare*

[Lanuven]

Fearstalker's got this new thing called a "real life"... y'all should look into it.

The question was more directed at the way he lead the guild compared to the way its being ran now. He wasn't scared to cut throats when it was time. This is Catherin's second offense to the rules with a slap on the wrist?

Also, your spending your time on the forums posting in RnF...shouldn't you take your own advice? Just saying..kind of a dumbass comment to make considering your spending your time watching forums for drama if you aren't currently playing.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Even with turrble rulings , I miss p99. Are we just done with rules Nd precedent now? Can we stop trying to explain mechanics and rules and just start with a list of dicks that need to be sucked so things can go our way?

[dustysr06]

I think eratani is to blame for all of this, should send him massive amounts of hate tells in game..

Or you know, u could come play red, where fte doesnt matter and the players can exact their own revenge and due justice! :)

[Derubael]

I still think the best Analogy to this situation is the BDA Suspension for Peeling off what BDA thought was a Stall without allowing the mob (CT? Draco? I don't remember) to reset.

BDA was rightfully suspended and the GM's arguement was that, even if it was a stall, BDA wasn't allowed to make that call, and should never kill anything without an FTE Message. So the Illegal Pull by a tracker doesn't matter. The kill without an FTE Shout should mean a suspension.
Draco, but I guess that part of it doesn't really matter. The lack of consistency in the rulings is pretty appalling though.

....Did you guys forget that BDA didn't get suspended for this, but instead had their loots deleted...?

I don't remember there being a clarion call to suspend BDA after that encounter. In fact, BDA argued hard that they shouldn't have their loot deleted at all.

But there was definitely not a suspension. We let BDA off with a warning.

:confused:

[arsenalpow]

....Did you guys forget that BDA didn't get suspended for this, but instead had their loots deleted...?

I don't remember there being a clarion call to suspend BDA after that encounter. In fact, BDA argued hard that they shouldn't have their loot deleted at all.

But there was definitely not a suspension. We let BDA off with a warning.

:confused:

but what the naggy situation with bda/taken/tmo, or fay with taken/ib, or draco with ib/tmo, or fay with taken/bda ?

[Derubael]

Also Derubel saying he doesn't know how those people got on the hate list...That is bad. It happened because Theya kept aggro and set an AE off on top of pet classes that were grouped with bards....

"that is bad"

I love how you all think we don't understand how aggro mechanics work. But no, not all of these people were on the encounter list because Theya set an AE off on top of eveyrone. If that were the case, their aggro delay timers would have the same delay. Instead, they are staggered, and not in the appropriate interval for dragon fear. This indicates that they did something to get on the encounter log - sent in a pet, threw a jav, etc - something that we can actually see on one of the fraps (someone throwing a Jav after the AG FTE).

Don't come out and try to imply we don't know what we're doing when half the people posting in this thread don't even know how to read an encounter log, let alone ascertain what happened in a cluster fuck like this.

Edit: Should also be mentioned that the pet's didn't add people to the hatelist in all cases either - some of the classes added are *not* pet classes.

Also, dragon fear does not add you to a mobs hatelist all by itself. You need to do something to pick up aggro. Neither do AE breath attacks.

[Locust]

....Did you guys forget that BDA didn't get suspended for this, but instead had their loots deleted...?

I don't remember there being a clarion call to suspend BDA after that encounter. In fact, BDA argued hard that they shouldn't have their loot deleted at all.

But there was definitely not a suspension. We let BDA off with a warning.

:confused:

this never happened. Supremacy (the bard, in FE) stalled draco as the only member of his guild until reinforcements arrived. BDA tried to peel unsuccessfully. we never killed it or received loot.

we were told that had we killed draco we would have eaten a suspension, and that we would be let off with a warning for raid interference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEG4pHUegHw

[Derubael]

this never happened. Supremacy (the bard, in FE) stalled draco as the only member of his guild until reinforcements arrived. BDA tried to peel unsuccessfully. we never killed it or received loot.

we were told that had we killed draco we would have eaten a suspension, and that we would be let off with a warning for raid interference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEG4pHUegHw

Oh sorry, you're right - BDA peeled, FE took it back, and BDA got a warning over it. Regardless, if you want to draw parallels, BDA didn't get suspended for that encounter