Building a Mosque??? WTF

[Eternal-Elf]

So with the recent cluster fuck of opinions on here given by people that carry absoletly no weight in the real world (besides the 385lbs they carry to and from the fridge to the computer)

I'd like to see what peoples opinions are on the Mosque being build at ground zero in New York.

First I'd like to say I am not against their constitutional right to build it there.....I am against their purpose of building it there.

How did he get 100 million dollars in a year after waiting tables......
Why do they want to do it........
What are their intentions???

Eh...

[purist]

Shut the fuck up.

[Eternal-Elf]

Shut the fuck up.

Very constructive comment. A Tribute to your intelligence bro. Congrats!

[Itchybottom]

True Muslims, not the ones that misquote the Qu'ran for their own goals, are usually wonderful people. I say that we as a country you need to learn to respect more religions that don't fall under Judeo-Christianism morality. I'm hoping that they keep things positive and open some eyes, but I'm worried that the opposition is going to be too heavy. I've been by the Islamic Center in Tacoma a few times, and someone reciting Takbir and the entire crowd erupting in Allahu Akhbar is kind of inspiring. It seems more heart felt than amen, or halleluja.

Capital isn't that tough to raise, and I really don't care about their motives or intent, I just want the United States of America to wake up before it's just a footnote in a history book. "The Decline of the Great American Empire", is not a book I'd want to have to read.

[Kutter]

be on the bookshelves in less than 20 years.

chinese bookshelves.

[Abacab niggah]

be on the bookshelves in less than 20 years.

chinese bookshelves.

Made in Taiwan like a Nintendo cartridge

[Abacab niggah]

How did he get 100 million dollars in a year after waiting tables......
Why do they want to do it........
What are their intentions???.

They're doing it for the lulz most likely.

But then again is it really any different than us bombing the fuck out a 3000 year old city that contains several holy sites and places of culture relevance and popping up a McDonald's and several night clubs?

How many meccas of capitalism have we placed on the charred remains of a culture foreign to our own? Even the crusaders of old sacc'd muslim/jewish cities to raid that shit for gold and establish missionaries and trade routes

http://ohermenauta.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/iraq_mcdonalds.jpg?w=490

Love it or hate it the real reason for military conflict is not vindication or righteousness it is merely economics.

and I'm lovin' it

[fastboy21]

True Muslims, not the ones that misquote the Qu'ran for their own goals, are usually wonderful people. I say that we as a country you need to learn to respect more religions that don't fall under Judeo-Christianism morality. I'm hoping that they keep things positive and open some eyes, but I'm worried that the opposition is going to be too heavy. I've been by the Islamic Center in Tacoma a few times, and someone reciting Takbir and the entire crowd erupting in Allahu Akhbar is kind of inspiring. It seems more heart felt than amen, or halleluja.

Capital isn't that tough to raise, and I really don't care about their motives or intent, I just want the United States of America to wake up before it's just a footnote in a history book. "The Decline of the Great American Empire", is not a book I'd want to have to read.

the problem is that they aren't misquoting the qu'ran. american islam IS a very different culture than the islam of the middle east. islam in its simplest form is a very passive religion about personal relationship with god in america. in the middle east those relationships are extended outward towards others. the problem is that the qu'ran can be read both ways, and (without having to misquote it) you can very easily read the qu'ran as a violent text.

i don't hate american islam...but, when someone tells you that muslim jidhadists in the middle east are misreading the qur'an they are full of shit. they aren't misreading it...go read the surah of the sword, for example, and tell me otherwise:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

that isn't a misquote...MAYBE it isn't supposed to be taken literally in our times, but it isn't a misquote. there are many many verses that support this, too many in my opinion, to pretend that it is absent from the quran.

[baub]

I just want the United States of America to wake up before it's just a footnote in a history book. "The Decline of the Great American Empire", is not a book I'd want to have to read.

All empires come to an end sooner or later. Hopefully we end up like the english, and not the romans.

Thanks in advance to China for patiently waiting their turn to step up to the plate!

[Abacab niggah]

"They cometh for the head of the beast, to slay him and eat the fat of his gain, let he with word of flame, and followers of threatening gaze run rampant upon those who so greedily lie in sloth"- Abacab 14:2

[Bodeanicus]

They're doing it for the lulz most likely.

But then again is it really any different than us bombing the fuck out a 3000 year old city that contains several holy sites and places of culture relevance and popping up a McDonald's and several night clubs?

How many meccas of capitalism have we placed on the charred remains of a culture foreign to our own? Even the crusaders of old sacc'd muslim/jewish cities to raid that shit for gold and establish missionaries and trade routes

http://ohermenauta.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/iraq_mcdonalds.jpg?w=490

Love it or hate it the real reason for military conflict is not vindication or righteousness it is merely economics.

and I'm lovin' it

That picture is fucking brilliant. I hate you a little less.

[Bodeanicus]

By the way, it's not a Mosque. It's a community center with a prayer room in it. Fox will rot your brain.

[Eternal-Elf]

By the way, it's not a Mosque. It's a community center with a prayer room in it. Fox will rot your brain.

I just have a feeling that when you put a place of worship, in the middle of a place full of people that hate it.....eventually you're going to have a problem.

What happens when you get a group of people from New York that shoot the place up or something.......all out civil war is what will happen.

I don't want that.

[Itchybottom]

go read the surah of the sword, for example, and tell me otherwise:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

The full verse is

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

And by the teachings is meant to be taken with:

"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing." Surah 8:61

It also loses some of it's meaning when translated to English, much like a Christian bible when compared to Septuagint text.

Grouping all of American-Islam into an extremist category is like grouping all Catholic priests into the category of child molesters. Maybe it's because I was raised Buddhist that I have a different viewpoint [and respect for all religions], but I'm just not seeing it.

[Bodeanicus]

I just have a feeling that when you put a place of worship, in the middle of a place full of people that hate it.....eventually you're going to have a problem.

What happens when you get a group of people from New York that shoot the place up or something.......all out civil war is what will happen.

I don't want that.

Oh, I agree. Politically, it's a very bad idea. Whoever owns that lot should just sell it, and build elsewhere.

[Bodeanicus]

The full verse is

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

And by the teachings is meant to be taken with:

"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing." Surah 8:61

It also loses some of it's meaning when translated to English, much like a Christian bible when compared to Septuagint text.

Grouping all of American-Islam into an extremist category is like grouping all Catholic priests into the category of child molesters. Maybe it's because I was raised Buddhist that I have a different viewpoint [and respect for all religions], but I'm just not seeing it.

The Old Testament in the King James Bible is full of similar shit. Does that make all Christians blood thirsty zealots? Should we judge all Christians by those lunatics fucks who protest soldier's funerals? No, and we shouldn't judge all Muslims but some backwards shit in their holy book either. Punish the individuals transgressors, not the people as a whole.

[Abacab niggah]

Thank Xenu I'm a scientologist!

http://images.memegenerator.net/alienswarm/ImageMacro/2388880/Fuck-that-ancient-shit-Xenu-motherfucker.jpg

[fugazi]

Its not on Ground Zero, its two blocks away from it. They're already using the place right now as a place of worship and prayer. For people who invade countries to bring 'em democracy, it's pretty hilarious to see you ignoring the hell out of your constitution when it befits you.

.. but I agree with the fact that it would be poor taste to build a mosque at Ground Zero. Alas, it isn't at Ground Zero.

[Straif]

The only reason it's a news topic is a political distraction.

The media has vilified Islam since 9/11. When it comes to the Qu'ran people misinterpret what they don't understand.

Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He blew up the federal building in Oklahoma, are people not allowed to build churches near federal property?

Fear makes people do reckless things. Personally if I was a Muslim involved in this whole ordeal I'd try to make a point to be more open with the public in having a debate and offering some insight and information on Islam. If people continue to be ignorant after an education, than that's on them.

A lot of the older southern population believe in all sorts of crazy shit when it comes to Islam. As well as still extremely prejudice (race is still a big issue in this country.) Islam is a faith to more than a BILLION people on the face of the earth, to say that amount of people have the only one objective and it's to kill infidels, you're a fucking retard. Not to mention the enormous amount of WHITE Muslims.

People need to do more reading and less believing what ANY media outlet tells them.

[Straif]

Also... adding to what Fugazi said... rhetoric would want you to believe that they're building a "SUPER" "MEGA" "GIANT" Mosque and want you to believe it was literally being built directly on the site of the WTC.

Jihad is also made up of multiple facets.

In the end however it's is a conversation with God.

[purist]

I just have a feeling that when you put a place of worship, in the middle of a place full of people that hate it.....eventually you're going to have a problem.

What happens when you get a group of people from New York that shoot the place up or something.......all out civil war is what will happen.

I don't want that.

There are already two mosques only blocks from the proposed site; Masjid Manhattan and Masjid al-Farah. Nobody's shot those up. Also yes, most public opinion polls seem to show the bulk of Americans oppose the project, but a clear majority of Manhattanites, you know, the people who live and work near Ground Zero experienced the 9/11 attacks first hand, support it.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/nycpolls/c100728/Bloomberg_RV/Construction_of_Mosque_Near_World_Trade_Center_Sit e.htm

[Rasterburn]

I live in New York. I know how New Yorkers think. And one of my friends... a guy whom I had known since high school, was killed on 9/11.

If those assholes try to build this nasty little mosque of theirs, then they can fully expect a street war. I can already see people gearing up for it.

[Abacab niggah]

I live in New York. I know how New Yorkers think. And one of my friends... a guy whom I had known since high school, was killed on 9/11.

If those assholes try to build this nasty little mosque of theirs, then they can fully expect a street war. I can already see people gearing up for it.

This is new yorkers?

http://images.memegenerator.net/gangnewy/ImageMacro/2389246/Pistols-No-pistols-Thank-god-I-die-a-true-american.jpg

[Rasterburn]

Come to NY and find out. ;)

[jelatin]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap

[fugazi]

I live in New York. I know how New Yorkers think. And one of my friends... a guy whom I had known since high school, was killed on 9/11.

If those assholes try to build this nasty little mosque of theirs, then they can fully expect a street war. I can already see people gearing up for it.

And these people were involved in killing your friend how?

[Abacab niggah]

While we are being all pro americuuuh here on the forums, I bet Remedy is Eurofagin' it up on our raidspawns like the pinko commie nazi chavs they are

[Lazortag]

This isn't even controversial. You have to be a complete xenophobe to actually think that building a mosque near ground zero isn't justified. So long as no one with authority in the mosque (such as the prayer leader) is espousing hateful ideas, they should be allowed to build it wherever they want. Even if the mosque attracts some extremists, even extremists have the right to be in sensitive areas like ground zero, so long as they aren't disturbing the peace. Anyone opposed to the building of this mosque is suggesting different rules for muslims simply because the people responsible for the tragedy on 9/11 identified as muslim.

What I find hilarious is that anyone concerned with Islamic extremism should be in favor of letting them build the mosque, because all this "movement" (which, need I remind you, is being headed by the one and only Sarah Palin) is going to accomplish is making muslims feel insulted and resentful towards the US.

By law, nothing prohibits them from building the mosque, so please someone give me a good reason why an exception to the law should be made in this case? And I mean a *good* reason, not some vague ignorant comment about how muslims are backward or inherently extremist.

[Erasong]

the problem is that they aren't misquoting the qu'ran. american islam IS a very different culture than the islam of the middle east. islam in its simplest form is a very passive religion about personal relationship with god in america. in the middle east those relationships are extended outward towards others. the problem is that the qu'ran can be read both ways, and (without having to misquote it) you can very easily read the qu'ran as a violent text.

i don't hate american islam...but, when someone tells you that muslim jidhadists in the middle east are misreading the qur'an they are full of shit. they aren't misreading it...go read the surah of the sword, for example, and tell me otherwise:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

that isn't a misquote...MAYBE it isn't supposed to be taken literally in our times, but it isn't a misquote. there are many many verses that support this, too many in my opinion, to pretend that it is absent from the quran.

So does the bible dude. Its all about a modern man thinking its ok to go out and kill anyway.

Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

and lastly. Samuel 15:18 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.’

Extremists are Extremists. The religion doesnt matter. Just like a christian extremist arent really representing the bulk of christians worshippers, the same stands true for muslims. Dont go telling me there is no such thing as a christian extremist either. Northern Ireland much? Martin Dillion, Padraic Pearse. Not just individuals either, there are groups. Home grown right here in the United States. The Army of God, Concerned Christians, and just this year a group in detroit calling itself Hutaree was charged with conspiracy to use improvised explosive devices..sound familiar?

Im a native New Yorker. Have been all my life. 9/11 was a TRAGEDY, but to basically persecute or even associate this religion with the violence is un-american. Now im pretty liberal but in the words of my friends on the right, Guns dont kill people, people do.

[Erasong]

While we are being all pro americuuuh here on the forums, I bet Remedy is Eurofagin' it up on our raidspawns like the pinko commie nazi chavs they are

i lol'ed abacab. +1

[Lazortag]

God, did I say it was a mosque? Like eleven times in my post? It's an islamic community centre. Why am I such an idiot. Either way, everything in my post still applies.

[Erasong]

I live in New York. I know how New Yorkers think. And one of my friends... a guy whom I had known since high school, was killed on 9/11.

If those assholes try to build this nasty little mosque of theirs, then they can fully expect a street war. I can already see people gearing up for it.

You make me embarrassed to share my city with you and apparently you dont know how all new yorkers think.

[Lazortag]

God, did I say it was a mosque? Like eleven times in my post? It's an islamic community centre. Why am I such an idiot. Either way, everything in my post still applies.

edit (lolz): Actually it's also a mosque. Guess I was right. I thought the title of the topic had somehow hypnotized me into make-believing it was a mosque:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_House

Park51, originally named Cordoba House, is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center and mosque in Lower Manhattan

just ignore this post and the one before it.

[Lyssia]

True Muslims, not the ones that misquote the Qu'ran for their own goals, are usually wonderful people. I say that we as a country you need to learn to respect more religions that don't fall under Judeo-Christianism morality. I'm hoping that they keep things positive and open some eyes, but I'm worried that the opposition is going to be too heavy. I've been by the Islamic Center in Tacoma a few times, and someone reciting Takbir and the entire crowd erupting in Allahu Akhbar is kind of inspiring. It seems more heart felt than amen, or halleluja.

Capital isn't that tough to raise, and I really don't care about their motives or intent, I just want the United States of America to wake up before it's just a footnote in a history book. "The Decline of the Great American Empire", is not a book I'd want to have to read.

http://somalifans.net/2009/07/16/news-27/

[VictoryARC]

Building a Mosque near WTC is as wise as if the Japanese building a Shinto temple in Pearl Harbor. While I defend the constitutional right to do so, I still think the only purpose of building this is to put a thumb in the eye of us non-believers. Look at the Temple mount in Jerusalem. Nice way to promote peace.

[guineapig]

I will repeat what has been stated before. It's not a mosque and it's not at ground zero.

And yes, I do live in NYC.

[Straif]

Extremists, Insurgents, and Terrorists can not destroy America. Only we as American's can do that. So far we're doing a damn good job.

Islamic Fundamentalism wants to paint the west the same way North Korean Propaganda does. (http://calitreview.com/875) They want people to choose a side. Their whole purpose is to sell the view that what they believe is correct. Children aren't born to be hate mongers and extremists. While some may be indoctrinated into it, most are drawn in by way of persuasion. Often those type of people tend to be poor and illiterate... No Extremist leaders, princes or sheik's or any of their family offer themselves up in a way that directly threatens their lives.

The ignorant perpetuate the kind of shit that these terrorists point to. Unfortunatly everyone always tends to focus on the negative and it works well when the example of the America these people are taught to hate are Good Ole Boy, Prejudice Spewing, Back Country fucks.

Terror Leader: "They hate Islam, See? They are all buddy-buddy with the Jews. They will rule you with Christianity, they want you to convert. You must fight!"

"Here's a suicide vest... I'm gunna be chillin other here. Say Hi to Allah for me, have fun with the virgins bro! Man You're Lucky! Gogogogo!"

[fugazi]

Building a Mosque near WTC is as wise as if the Japanese building a Shinto temple in Pearl Harbor. While I defend the constitutional right to do so, I still think the only purpose of building this is to put a thumb in the eye of us non-believers. Look at the Temple mount in Jerusalem. Nice way to promote peace.

Read the last two pages and you'll see why this is not an issue.

[azeth]

Our country was founded on Religious freedom. By allowing a Mosque be built close to the ground zero sight we're not conceding nothing but our inoordinate rage toward Islam who's believers do not condone nor associate themselves with the actions of the independent terrorist organization who attacked the United States 9 years ago.

azeth beings to cast a spell.
You feel your mind expand.

[azeth]

we're conceding nothing* -> correction to "we're not conceding nothing"

[Qaedain]

This is why I don't care if it gets build:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnab.jpg

[azeth]

Qaed if you posted this prior to reading my post above yours then sir great minds think alike.

[Straif]

This is why I don't care if it gets build:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnab.jpg

^^^ Awesome ^^^

[Qaedain]

I just went straight to the end of the thread and posted. ;D I figured at least 3 of the pages would be filled with angry bigots trying to justify their narrow-mindedness by propping up lazy arguments that weakly attempt to disguise abridgements of the constitution.

For example: "I'm not against their constitutional right, I just think they're doing it for the wrong reasons."

So I decided to skip all of those, pass go and collect $200 right away.

[Erasong]

I just went straight to the end of the thread and posted. ;D I figured at least 3 of the pages would be filled with angry bigots trying to justify their narrow-mindedness by propping up lazy arguments that weakly attempt to disguise abridgements of the constitution.

For example: "I'm not against their constitutional right, I just think they're doing it for the wrong reasons."

So I decided to skip all of those, pass go and collect $200 right away.

i agree with you and my post was pretty much like yours but with less pretty diagrams. Now i know how to get peoples attention tho! thanks for the lesson

[OngorDrakan]

Bunch of idiots posting here. Its not ON ground zero, or AT ground zero. AND, this is America, you can build things, regardless of what you preach. Should we disallow churches to be built near ground zero too? See where I'm going? Idiots.

[fastboy21]

I think they have an absolute right to build...but that does not mean that they should. Out of sensitivity for Americans who might be offended they should be good neighbors and move elsewhere to show their over the top effort to improve relations...

I would said the same thing if someone wanted to build a church near the site of a bombed abortion clinic...it's just a way of building good will rather than testing it.

As for the violent biblical references, they are not the same as the Koran has. The violence of the old testament was done at a specific time and that context is over now. The gospel doesn't instruct Christians to be violent in the present tense. The Koran does. That's why there are entire countries of Muslims that believe and hope for demise of non Muslim states.

I am not saying that there are not radicals who will and have done extremely violent acts in the name their faith (including Christianity). I am saying that in the middle east there are many violent Muslims who believe their faith has called them to take part in very violent things. This is very asymmetric when you hold it up next to radical Christians.

Let me know the next time a Christian cuts a mans head off on camera while praying and chanting and puts it o. YouTube. It is not comparable with anything in the Christian faith.

Again, I have said that American Islam is very different from the doctrine grown in the middle east. I have also said that American Islam is a beautiful and peaceful faith.

American Muslims need to reject the faith that has corrupted the middle east and stop pretending that it doesn't exist or dismissing it by saying "all faiths have their fanatics.".

[Enderenter]

This is why I don't care if it gets build:

http://i.imgur.com/qYnab.jpg

I don't like to post in R&F normally, but that graph is amazing. Truly elegant in its simplicity.

[Enderenter]

As for the violent biblical references, they are not the same as the Koran has. The violence of the old testament was done at a specific time and that context is over now. The gospel doesn't instruct Christians to be violent in the present tense. The Koran does. That's why there are entire countries of Muslims that believe and hope for demise of non Muslim states.


To say that there are entire countries that believe and hope for the demise of others is an absurd generalization, you do realize that don't you?


Let me know the next time a Christian cuts a mans head off on camera while praying and chanting and puts it o. YouTube. It is not comparable with anything in the Christian faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

[fastboy21]

[QUOTE=Enderenter;132218]To say that there are entire countries that believe and hope for the demise of others is an absurd generalization, you do realize that don't you?

I didn't say every person in the country. But there are entire states (Iran for example) that are Muslim Theocracies that have called for destruction on non-muslim states.

Give me a modern example of a Christian theocracy that is doing this.

[azeth]

[QUOTE=Enderenter;132218]To say that there are entire countries that believe and hope for the demise of others is an absurd generalization, you do realize that don't you?

I didn't say every person in the country. But there are entire states (Iran for example) that are Muslim Theocracies that have called for destruction on non-muslim states.

Give me a modern example of a Christian theocracy that is doing this.

No sorry i cannot provide you an example of the shit you make up.

read a fucking book, for goodness sake.

[azeth]

What the fuck, Fastboy screwed up the quote so now my post is effed.

Above post was supposed to quote Fastboy

[Fanon_EMarr]

It's a community center being built two blocks away from Ground Zero on privately-owned property.

But you know what? I wish it were a giant mosque being built right at the center of Ground Zero. Why? Because it's a giant "Go Fuck Yourselves" to the Muslim extremists who hate us because we stand for religious plurality.

And it would also be a giant "Go Fuck Yourselves" to the talking heads who only believe in fundamental American rights and values when it's fucking convenient.

[azeth]

It's a community center being built two blocks away from Ground Zero on privately-owned property.

But you know what? I wish it were a giant mosque being built right at the center of Ground Zero. Why? Because it's a giant "Go Fuck Yourselves" to the Muslim extremists who hate us because we stand for religious plurality.

And it would also be a giant "Go Fuck Yourselves" to the talking heads who only believe in fundamental American rights and values when it's fucking convenient.

qft, honestly what the fuck else are any of you thinking? Your arguements are not only disrespectful to American Muslims, but to Americans in general.

[Enderenter]

I didn't say every person in the country. But there are entire states (Iran for example) that are Muslim Theocracies that have called for destruction on non-muslim states.

The problem with your line of reasoning is that you are associating the people (Muslims) in the state of Iran with the government of the state of Iran. Just because a government is horrible does not make the people who are trapped under it horrible. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of the Iranian people are hoping for the demise of their government.

Give me a modern example of a Christian theocracy that is doing this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond#The_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo

[Erasong]

qft, honestly what the fuck else are any of you thinking? Your arguements are not only disrespectful to American Muslims, but to Americans in general.

This gentlemen and the one he quoted for pres and vice pres.

[fastboy21]

To say that there are entire countries that believe and hope for the demise of others is an absurd generalization, you do realize that don't you?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

Once again, the point is that it isn't a symmetrical counter example. Are you seriously going to compare a small splinter group in Uganda that is tied up in all kinds of other political issues to the Islamic countries that have state wide policies of violent islam?

You miss the point completely by hunting for examples of Christians who do bad things. The scale of the violence between Christians and Muslims is not balanced.

The largest Christian countries in the world are not executing policies of religious hatred. The largest Muslim countries in the world do.

I'd like to be able to say that I'm just as afraid of visiting England or Italy as I am Iran or Afghanistan...the problem is it just isn't so.

Most American Muslims that I know are desperate to divorce themselves from being identified with the type of Islam that rules the middle east.

[Erasong]

The problem with your line of reasoning is that you are associating the people (Muslims) in the state of Iran with the government of the state of Iran. Just because a government is horrible does not make the people who are trapped under it horrible. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of the Iranian people are hoping for the demise of their government.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond#The_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo

Remember the HUGE civil unrest in IRan recently over the elections? Ya definitely a people in full support of their government.

[fastboy21]

[QUOTE=fastboy21;132221]

No sorry i cannot provide you an example of the shit you make up.

read a fucking book, for goodness sake.

I don't understand why you think my pointing out that there are no Christian Theocracies in the world that are practicing radical Christianity. This difference is at the heart of the difference between the relative scale of violence between the two faiths.

I guess its easier to curse and tell me to read a book when you don't like what I am saying. For the record, not only do I read books but I was also a practicing Muslim for a short while and know first hand the types of radical thought that circulates in some circles. It is not symmetrical when compared to Christianity.

[AexDestroy]

http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/heller.gif

[fastboy21]

Remember the HUGE civil unrest in IRan recently over the elections? Ya definitely a people in full support of their government.

To the best of my knowledge the civil unrest was surrounding the election fraud of their president (aka, their civil secular leader---at least in name). It wasn't in protest of the "Supreme Leader" (aka, their real leader). The theocracy wasn't being challenged, only the secular arm of their government.

I do agree with you though that the unrest in Iran is a good sign for democracy in Iran...and is a good example pointing out how Iran may not always be a backwards theocracy someday in the future.

[Enderenter]

Once again, the point is that it isn't a symmetrical counter example. Are you seriously going to compare a small splinter group in Uganda that is tied up in all kinds of other political issues to the Islamic countries that have state wide policies of violent islam?

A small splinter group yes. Why don't you compare the estimated number of people in the LRA with the estimated number of people in Al-Qaeda?

You miss the point completely by hunting for examples of Christians who do bad things. The scale of the violence between Christians and Muslims is not balanced.

You're right. Far more people have been killed in history by Christians than by Muslims.

The largest Christian countries in the world are not executing policies of religious hatred. The largest Muslim countries in the world do.

Once again, you are associating dictatorial governments with citizens of those governments. Not everywhere in the world is it as easy to leave a country as it is in America. Many people do not have such freedoms.


Most American Muslims that I know are desperate to divorce themselves from being identified with the type of Islam that rules the middle east.

I truly believe if you met the average Middle-eastern Muslim your opinion of Islam would be drastically altered.

[purist]

Fastboy can you stop talking now? If you read a newspaper at all you'd know that the people protesting were chanting "Death to the Dictator" (clearly referring to the Supreme Leader) and openly defying the Iranian supreme leader's command not to demonstrate in the streets (and instead take to the limits of their cleric-lead system).

[fastboy21]

We can agree to disagree. I simply think radical Islam is a FAR bigger player in the modern world than radical christianity. It isn't about any one group of terrorists, christian or muslim.

I don't think the "average" middle eastern muslim wants to cut off my head...I never said that. I do believe that the average middle eastern muslim is not violent at all. But the forces of radicalism are much closer to the forefront of middle eastern countries than in Christian countries. That is all I am saying: the split is not 50-50. In today's world radical islam is a far bigger problem than radical christianity. this statement isn't based in racism or hatred, its a fair analysis of the current hot-bed of the world geopolitical problems today.

If we want to address why so much radicalism is gripping the middle east we have to be honest that it exists and is not just the media spinning the facts.

[fastboy21]

Fastboy can you stop talking now? If you read a newspaper at all you'd know that the people protesting were chanting "Death to the Dictator" (clearly referring to the Supreme Leader) and openly defying the Iranian supreme leader's command not to demonstrate in the streets (and instead take to the limits of their cleric-lead system).

Why were they protesting? It was because of the secular election fraud of their president. Sans election fraud no protests...

I already said that I thought it was a good sign for budding democracy in Iran. Growth of democracy would mean a simultaneous demise of their theocracy, at least in the form that it exists today. I never said otherwise.

[Enderenter]

We can agree to disagree. I simply think radical Islam is a FAR bigger player in the modern world than radical christianity. It isn't about any one group of terrorists, christian or muslim.

The widespread perception of Islam is that it is radical, which in reality that is far from the truth, which is what I was trying to point out with the radical Christian groups.

I don't think the "average" middle eastern muslim wants to cut off my head...I never said that. I do believe that the average middle eastern muslim is not violent at all. But the forces of radicalism are much closer to the forefront of middle eastern countries than in Christian countries. That is all I am saying: the split is not 50-50. In today's world radical islam is a far bigger problem than radical christianity. this statement isn't based in racism or hatred, its a fair analysis of the current hot-bed of the world geopolitical problems today.

This is good to hear. I wholly agree with you about radical Islam being at the forefront of several state-governments - though even Saudi Arabia is very much against Al-Qaeda.

Islamic extremism (Al-Qaeda) and Islamic radicalism (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran) are 2 very different things which are often confused. Extremists are the ones behind the attacks on 9/11. Radicals are against the policies of America and view American culture as immoral, evil and so forth, but are not seeking the destruction of American citizens, even if they wish for the downfall of the American Government.

[Slade_the_Slide]

Not a mosque.

It's a community center, that happens to have a prayer room.

It's not by ground zero, it's blocks away.

There's already a mosque near ground zero anyway.

If it was a church or synagogue, no one would have made a peep.

It's their right. Deal with it.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

So with the recent cluster fuck of opinions on here given by people that carry absoletly no weight in the real world (besides the 385lbs they carry to and from the fridge to the computer)

I'd like to see what peoples opinions are on the Mosque being build at ground zero in New York.

First I'd like to say I am not against their constitutional right to build it there.....I am against their purpose of building it there.

How did he get 100 million dollars in a year after waiting tables......
Why do they want to do it........
What are their intentions???

Eh...

Their intentions are to pray to the WRONG GOD. BURN THAT MOTHERFUCKER DOWN ARARWRAR

[Taxi]

So with the recent cluster fuck of opinions on here given by people that carry absoletly no weight in the real world (besides the 385lbs they carry to and from the fridge to the computer)

I'd like to see what peoples opinions are on the Mosque being build at ground zero in New York.

First I'd like to say I am not against their constitutional right to build it there.....I am against their purpose of building it there.

How did he get 100 million dollars in a year after waiting tables......
Why do they want to do it........
What are their intentions???

Eh...

Shit this Headline is making rounds today:

(Is your real name Scott Gentries, elf?)

-----------------

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims

August 30, 2010 | ISSUE 46•35

SALINA, KS—Local man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.

Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.

"I learned all that really matters about the Muslim faith on 9/11," Gentries said in reference to the terrorist attacks on the United States undertaken by 19 of Islam's approximately 1.6 billion practitioners. "What more do I need to know to stigmatize Muslims everywhere as inherently violent radicals?"

"And now they want to build a mosque at Ground Zero," continued Gentries, eliminating any distinction between the 9/11 hijackers and Muslims in general. "No, I won't examine the accuracy of that statement, but yes, I will allow myself to be outraged by it and use it as evidence of these people's universal callousness toward Americans who lost loved ones when the Twin Towers fell."

"Even though I am not one of those people," he added.

When told that the proposed "Ground Zero mosque" is actually a community center two blocks north of the site that would include, in addition to a public prayer space, a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant, and athletic facilities, Gentries shook his head and said, "I know all I'm going to let myself know."

Gentries explained that it "didn't take long" to find out as much about the tenets of Islam as he needed to. He said he knew Muslims stoned their women for committing adultery, trained for terrorist attacks at fundamentalist madrassas, and believed in jihad, which Gentries described as the thing they used to justify killing infidels.

"All Muslims are at war with America, and I will resist any attempt to challenge that assertion with potentially illuminating facts," said Gentries, who threatened to leave the room if presented with the number of Muslims who live peacefully in the United States, serve in the country's armed forces, or were victims themselves of the 9/11 attacks. "Period."

"If you don't believe me, wait until they put your wife in a burka," Gentries continued in reference to the face-and-body-covering worn by a small minority of Muslim women and banned in the universities of Turkey, Tunisia, and Syria. "Or worse, a rape camp. That's right: For reasons I am content being totally unable to articulate, I am choosing to associate Muslims with rape camps."

Over the past decade, Gentries said he has taken pains to avoid personal interactions or media that might have the potential to compromise his point of view. He told reporters that the closest he had come to confronting a contrary standpoint was tuning in to the first few seconds of an interview with a moderate Muslim cleric before hastily turning off the television.

"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

Added Gentries, "That really put things back into perspective."

[Taxi]

Timothy McVeigh, christian, bombs oklahoma city. No more churches around the place, because you know, he was christian?

[Taxi]

We can agree to disagree. I simply think radical Islam is a FAR bigger player in the modern world than radical christianity. It isn't about any one group of terrorists, christian or muslim.

I don't think the "average" middle eastern muslim wants to cut off my head...I never said that. I do believe that the average middle eastern muslim is not violent at all. But the forces of radicalism are much closer to the forefront of middle eastern countries than in Christian countries. That is all I am saying: the split is not 50-50. In today's world radical islam is a far bigger problem than radical christianity. this statement isn't based in racism or hatred, its a fair analysis of the current hot-bed of the world geopolitical problems today.

If we want to address why so much radicalism is gripping the middle east we have to be honest that it exists and is not just the media spinning the facts.

Tell that to the iraqis and afghanis and pakistanese getting bombed by christian planes. There is not one american president i can remember who is not constantly referring to god and jesus.

[fastboy21]

Timothy McVeigh, christian, bombs oklahoma city. No more churches around the place, because you know, he was christian?

Yes, you make a point. I just don't know what profound point you think you are making...McVeigh didn't bomb oklahoma city because of a religious belief. So why would anyone care if a Church got put up near by?

Yes, McVeigh was a Christian. Yes, Christians can do bad things too.

Good point. /sarcasm off

***
What I really wonder about people's opinions when it comes to this "debate" is where would you draw the line on freedom of expression? when does someone's right to grieve in peace outweigh another's right to express themselves?

Let's say, for example...
The WTC had been bombed by the members of the NY State KKK as part of a KKK mission to destroy American lives who disagree with their ideals.

Would you be in favor of that KKK chapter opening a meeting hall at ground zero? what about 2 blocks away? what about 3 blocks away? what if they put up a banner in their window (that isn't breaking any civil codes) that says "we're glad your friends are dead?"---is that too far?

Its easy to defend freedom of expression and speech when YOUR comfort zone isn't the one that is being infringed on...its much harder when you are the one who is in pain.

Freedom of expression and speech is not absolute. There are plenty of reasons when the government has every constitutional authority to violate your free speech.

Where do you draw the line is a far more important question to ask yourself when you are championing another's free speech/expression.

***
I can understand someone saying they should be allowed to build because they did nothing wrong. They aren't the people who committed the crime so why should they be held responsible/punished. I respect this rationale because it is good sense. This is why I believe they by LAW have every right to build there.

When people say things like it isn't actually right at ground zero...or it isn't REALLY a mosque...I have to wonder why those facts really matter to you. Are you saying that if it WERE a mosque and it WERE at ground zero you wouldn't support their freedoms? That doesn't sound like defending freedoms and rights anymore, it sounds like you just articulating what your particular comfort zone is. If you are one of those people where do you draw the line then between what you believe is right and wrong in this situation? Well...they can be no closer than 2 blocks to the site so long as they only hold prayer services and don't put any Islamic calligraphy on their signs...This is clearly ridiculous.

[Taxi]

Yes, you make a point. I just don't know what profound point you think you are making...McVeigh didn't bomb oklahoma city because of a religious belief. So why would anyone care if a Church got put up near by?

Yes, McVeigh was a Christian. Yes, Christians can do bad things too.

Good point. /sarcasm off

***
What I really wonder about people's opinions when it comes to this "debate" is where would you draw the line on freedom of expression? when does someone's right to grieve in peace outweigh another's right to express themselves?

Let's say, for example...
The WTC had been bombed by the members of the NY State KKK as part of a KKK mission to destroy American lives who disagree with their ideals.

Would you be in favor of that KKK chapter opening a meeting hall at ground zero? what about 2 blocks away? what about 3 blocks away? what if they put up a banner in their window (that isn't breaking any civil codes) that says "we're glad your friends are dead?"---is that too far?

Its easy to defend freedom of expression and speech when YOUR comfort zone isn't the one that is being infringed on...its much harder when you are the one who is in pain.

Freedom of expression and speech is not absolute. There are plenty of reasons when the government has every constitutional authority to violate your free speech.

Where do you draw the line is a far more important question to ask yourself when you are championing another's free speech/expression.

***
I can understand someone saying they should be allowed to build because they did nothing wrong. They aren't the people who committed the crime so why should they be held responsible/punished. I respect this rationale because it is good sense. This is why I believe they by LAW have every right to build there.

When people say things like it isn't actually right at ground zero...or it isn't REALLY a mosque...I have to wonder why those facts really matter to you. Are you saying that if it WERE a mosque and it WERE at ground zero you wouldn't support their freedoms? That doesn't sound like defending freedoms and rights anymore, it sounds like you just articulating what your particular comfort zone is. If you are one of those people where do you draw the line then between what you believe is right and wrong in this situation? Well...they can be no closer than 2 blocks to the site so long as they only hold prayer services and don't put any Islamic calligraphy on their signs...This is clearly ridiculous.

America is just so racist that they dont even pick up whats racist or not anymore it seems, its just so ingrained in the culture and matter of fact. Those people who bomb abortion clinics in the state, they are christian, right? They doing it out of religious faith, right? So why not ban christian churches from 2 blocks from any abortion clinic in the US? To ask the question is to answer it, theyre not banning it because nobody is painting all christians as if they are all potential abortion clinic bombers, which is how muslims are painted in this day and age. Theyre the new jews.

[Taxi]

Theres loads of examples like this, where to an outsider, the racism is instantly obvious, but somehow, some americans are so brain-washed or just performing Orwell's double-think (the ability to hold 2 contradicting ideas in your head and beleiving them both to be true, like "Im not a racist" and "I hate black people") that they dont see it anymore.

2 examples:

Cops in flint michigan, wanted or did pass a law, where you get fined if your pants are sagging below the waistline. A clothing trend that is often chosen by some part of the black youth today. So ok, boxer shorts are like tennis shorts right? So white preppies wearing tennis shorts ok, black kids where we can see part of the tennis shorts, not ok.
This, for an outsider, is an obvious attempt to harass young black kids. Like something you can use to harass them, a racist tool.

Jena, Lousiana. Some black kids decide to sit under a tree that was traditionally a place where only white kids sat. A couple of time after, some nooses are put up in the tree, fights break out, kids are suspended. A journalist asks a librarian at the school if she thinks nooses in a tree are a racist symbol. You know, when they used to do that to black people for no reason beside them being black? She says that she cant find whats racist in it.

Mississippi school, 2010:

Until Friday, it was standard practice in Nettleton, Mississippi's Middle School--though illegal--to segregate student body elections. This practice was enforced by documents that articulated the race requirements for specific offices (e.g., president, vice president, etc.) and went so far as to set aside 12 leadership positions for white students and four positions for African-American students. For years, the policy went unchallenged, virtually unnoticed by the district, which proudly displays on its homepage the motto, "teaching today what matters tomorrow." Given what has now been exposed to the nation, this begs the question, what, exactly, were they trying to teach?

There are many glaring examples like this where america's racism is just jumping at you.

[Taxi]

Like, they cant make the connection with the anti-mosque hysteria and the guy who stabbed a random taxi driver after being told he was muslim.

[fastboy21]

taxi...mcveigh had nothing to do with him being a christian. you used the example, and it is a bad one.

the abortion clinic example and the stabbing a taxi driver because he was muslim are obviously much better examples...maybe next time you'll use them first before using the crap one.

and, btw, it isn't RACIST to hate Muslims unless you hate them because they are semetic. you keep using the word racist, when it makes no sense for your own examples. its wrong and bigoted, prejudiced, etc...but it isn't rascist. the word just doesn't refer to religion.

i'm such a racist towards mets fans!

[oldhead]

Im of the same mind Obama is. They have every right to do it... but it may not be wise to do so.

Just because you CAN do something doesnt mean you should do it.

You CAN burn a an American flag... doesnt mean you should. You may become the focus of many peoples bad intent.

You CAN act like these fuckers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
Doesnt mean you should.

[oldhead]

I feel the media is a bag of nuts about it tho... only good thing is that it makes watch john stewart so much better.

[ShadowWulf]

One of the funders of the mosque is a member of the Saudi royal family, and brother to Osama.

Oh yea, and he is also the largest private share holder of FOX news. Guess it pays to MAKE the news eh?

[Taxi]

taxi...mcveigh had nothing to do with him being a christian. you used the example, and it is a bad one.

the abortion clinic example and the stabbing a taxi driver because he was muslim are obviously much better examples...maybe next time you'll use them first before using the crap one.

and, btw, it isn't RACIST to hate Muslims unless you hate them because they are semetic. you keep using the word racist, when it makes no sense for your own examples. its wrong and bigoted, prejudiced, etc...but it isn't rascist. the word just doesn't refer to religion.

i'm such a racist towards mets fans!

Why is it a bad one? He was a christian fanatic, ready to blow up lots of people for what he thought was his battle of good vs evil. Sound familiar?

When i say racist, its because the hate is directed toward an ethnic group. Yes, islam is a religion, but alot of its practionners are in the minds of those type of americans, the middle eastern, pakistani, huh, you know, those brown turban bearded guys. (right, the sikhs.) The hate doesnt restrict itself to a religion, it has a more broad range, which is why im using the word racism, and not bigotry.

[fastboy21]

Why is it a bad one? He was a christian fanatic, ready to blow up lots of people for what he thought was his battle of good vs evil. Sound familiar?

When i say racist, its because the hate is directed toward an ethnic group. Yes, islam is a religion, but alot of its practionners are in the minds of those type of americans, the middle eastern, pakistani, huh, you know, those brown turban bearded guys. (right, the sikhs.) The hate doesnt restrict itself to a religion, it has a more broad range, which is why im using the word racism, and not bigotry.

its ironic, but by lumping all muslims into a single ethnic group you, yourself, are now in fact being a rascist and ignorant. there are muslims from all races all over the globe and you minimize them with your statement.

using the word rascist to describe the hatred of muslims is just ignorant.

[oldhead]

http://officeforward.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/thats_racist.gif

[Japan]

This mosque is an insult.

Legally barring this mosque from being erected is obviously unconstitutional. The two possible outcomes of the conservative outrage over this: a.) stop the mosque in an act of oppression, giving global validation to the idea we're evil anti-Islam heathens, or b.) fail to violate the constitution and stop the mosque, thus giving bloody Islam a cultural victory.

This is a real-life, multimillion dollar troll. Dolt conservatives have fallen for it, and the United States have already lost this small battle.

[fastboy21]

This mosque is an insult.

Legally barring this mosque from being erected is obviously unconstitutional. The two possible outcomes of the conservative outrage over this: a.) stop the mosque in an act of oppression, giving global validation to the idea we're evil anti-Islam heathens, or b.) fail to violate the constitution and stop the mosque, thus giving bloody Islam a cultural victory.

This is a real-life, multimillion dollar troll. Dolt conservatives have fallen for it, and the United States have already lost this small battle.

there is a third option, that i think is actually very likely:

the people who wanted to build there will voluntarily move elsewhere, even though they don't have to do so. to me, this would show a compassion that is above and beyond anything they have an obligation to do, which would go a long way in terms of helping to open dialog with ignorant people and actually improve relations between the two factions involved.

[newagemystic]

"The War on Terror" 1095 A.D.-

[isitatomic]

[Warning: Post only for individuals on higher planes of thinking. Users unable to imbibe information contained in chunks longer than a text message or Facebook status update are advised to skip over for purposes of TL;DR, and to continue with the filling of their dirty gym sock]

Give me a fucking break. The "logic" behind the opposition to this construction project is as amorphous as the explanations its adherents use to defend it, trying their best to conceal their profound ignorance and/or bigotry all the while. If there is A SINGLE cogent argument against the completion of this center, it's been awfully afraid to show itself. Furthermore, the wording and rhetoric being thrown around in discussions of this "news" is so obviously crafted for demagoguery that anyone with half a brain completely tuned out coverage and checked facts for themselves.


Let's see:

Mosque. Powerful image in the US citizens' psyche. Minarets piercing the sky, the singing of daily prayers, bearded Imams shuffling about. Questionable though polling may be, recent Pew research indicates a general disdain for Muslims in the US, with 4 in 10 having an unfavorable view toward followers of Islam. I'll assume everyone has a very good idea in their heads as to which partisans those people are likely to be. A perfectly charged word to be bouncing around in the mediasphere, for some. Too bad it's bogus. A prayer room or chapel in a hospital... makes the hospital a church? No, not really. A prayer room in an Islamic Community Center is, that's right, also not a MOSQUE. But the energizing of a certain base for a certain spate of upcoming elections, and the hopes that a certain political seachange in a certain legislative institution will take place make that word strategically stupid to ignore. I've worked briefly in a Jewish Community Center and first of all, it's just simply not called a synagogue and doing so is flagrantly misleading, and second, frankly, persistently referring to the physical building as a synagogue would make you sound like what you probably are, an ignorant tool. A completely relevant statement on the website of such a center states:

The Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo is just that…a COMMUNITY Center. Membership is open to all members of our community without regard to race, age, gender, religious preference, marital or economic status.(Note: Emphasis theirs)


Ground Zero. Even more of an explosive image (pun totally intended)! It's so emotionally charged that there were way more of you who just got pissed off reading that than who thought it was funny. Point made. Though again, totally bogus with regard to the proposed construction project. Most major media outlets took the bait, or simply hooked it themselves, when this "story" first climbed its way out of the sewers of the conservative-conspiracy nut blogosphere. 'Ground Zero Mosque' was everywhere. It was everywhere because it glued eyes to TV sets and fingers to pages, not because it was at all true. And it's not.

There is no fucking ground zero mosque, nor is there a ground zero islamic community center.


This brings us to the two loudest forms of vomit spewing from the mouths of the project's opponents...

1) Proximity: Stop the ground zero mosque! Ok, ok, ok, it's not actually 'ON' ground zero itself, but it's TOO CLOSE! This islamic center is simply TOO CLOSE to ground zero! Right. And then people, even people as moronic as Chris Matthews, pressed with the obvious question - How far is far enough? Additionally, how can the resultant anti-Mosque (read: anti-Muslim/brown person) sentiment spilling over in cities across the country be explained through "proximity" to New York? This, of course, was met with much stuttering and behind-the-scenes strategy changes to steer away from such a bullshit argument. Which brings us to the next phase...

2) Wisdom: This is my favorite. I just fucking love this one. It so paralyzed Democrats that even Reid became willingly strung along for fear of losing the slim margin of white voter support that Biden managed to secure for the presidential win, a margin that conservatives have been successfully whittling away at for the past year. So the argument goes, "Of course NOBODY says they don't have the RIGHT to do it... but should they?". You know, considering the previous administration's actions and the general touting of 'conservative values' and upholding the constitution, it seems those same people have a severe case of JKLOL when it comes to protecting the very rights it guarantees. In the current congress alone, Republicans have proposed at least 42 constitutional amendments. But I digress. The fact is, whether or not you think this center should be built in its proposed location simply does not fucking matter. Whether or not you think your daughter's public school should exclude persons of color does not fucking matter. Whether or not you think a state law should never be overridden by a federal law does not fucking matter. Some might say "If you don't like it then gtfo of my country!". Does dissent matter? Absolutely. But this is not some honest reassessment of the wording of the Bill of Rights. It's already been said ad nauseam: This isn't about the First Amendment. Ok good, then that tells us the only reason this "story" hasn't fucking gone away yet is because it makes conservatives MAD and WANT TO VOTE, and the presence of so much ignorance and ill will toward Muslims generally serves as a catalyst to keep up the "story's"media momentum through the elections.

"But I am getting in touch with my inner pussy liberal and the building of this MOSQUE is so INSENSITIVE to me as a citizen, because that site 2 blocks away from the building is HALLOWED GROUND" you might say. Well, there's the largest and most telling conflation in this entire farce -- the idea that 'they' perpetrated 9/11. The Muslims. Now 'they' want to build their victory mosque!

Uh, hello? THERE IS NO 'THEY'.

It is only insensitive if you regard Islam as the culprit, as opposed to Al Qaida as the culprit. We were not attacked by all Muslims.


The fact that these people in New York, these citizens who've done NOTHING to earn the ire directed at them but practice a faith that 4/10 US citizens 'don't take kindly to', are still being so nonchalantly equated to suicidal maniacs is fucking disturbing, sad, and not surprising. Fucking pathetic.


And in co-opting the bullshit formulation of the opposition, I ask (rhetorically):

Sure you have the RIGHT to stand up and try to argue for the circumvention of the First Amendment rights of Islamic residents of Manhattan, but wouldn't it be WISER to simply shut the fuck up?

[mgellan]

Muslims are just as nice as Christians. People are people. Muslims are generally wonderful people. Christians are generally wonderful people.

Muslims can be freakin nutters, and so can Christians. Freakin Nutter Christians generally kill Muslims with expensive, highly accurate weaponry. Freakin Nutter Muslins generally kill Christians with whatever comes to hand (like airplanes). At the end of the day, religion is the root of all evil, and should be eradicated. Until then, let people have their delusions and build their nice little temples if it makes them happy. We can convert them into Payroll Loan shops when the Atheists finally wake up the masses to reality.

Regards,
Mg

[Bodeanicus]

Muslims are just as nice as Christians. People are people. Muslims are generally wonderful people. Christians are generally wonderful people.

Muslims can be freakin nutters, and so can Christians. Freakin Nutter Christians generally kill Muslims with expensive, highly accurate weaponry. Freakin Nutter Muslins generally kill Christians with whatever comes to hand (like airplanes). At the end of the day, religion is the root of all evil, and should be eradicated. Until then, let people have their delusions and build their nice little temples if it makes them happy. We can convert them into Payroll Loan shops when the Atheists finally wake up the masses to reality.

Regards,
Mg

Thank you, sir.

[Eternal-Elf]

I'll be real honest. I think it's more of a selfish want for them NOT to build one there because it offends me.
Not because I had any relatives in the twin towers, not because I hate muslims, not because I hate religion.
You know at work.....when you have a free coffee machine, but that ONE guy keeps pissing in it? It only takes one person to ruin a good thing for everyone.

I noticed you made a pretty little graph earlier.....saying 10000 Al Queda VS billions of Muslims.....

Good question to ask was....how many did it take to kill over 3,000 americans with those planes?

Anyways, I am not a racist or an extreme hill-billy or something.....I just don't really wanna see one built there. I don't like how it's being conducted......but as I said before. They DO have the right to build it there. God bless america =)

[Gorgetrapper]

The Crusades anyone?

[Alawen Everywhere]

How dare they defile the hallowed grounds of that shuttered discount clothing store!!!

[isitatomic]

I'll be real honest. I think it's more of a selfish want for them NOT to build one there because it offends me.
Not because I had any relatives in the twin towers, not because I hate muslims, not because I hate religion.
You know at work.....when you have a free coffee machine, but that ONE guy keeps pissing in it? It only takes one person to ruin a good thing for everyone.

I noticed you made a pretty little graph earlier.....saying 10000 Al Queda VS billions of Muslims.....

Good question to ask was....how many did it take to kill over 3,000 americans with those planes?

Anyways, I am not a racist or an extreme hill-billy or something.....I just don't really wanna see one built there. I don't like how it's being conducted......but as I said before. They DO have the right to build it there. God bless america =)

I assumed you might be rational and open to fact-based discourse. My mistake. Abridged and repeated for great justice:

Sure you have the RIGHT to stand up and try to argue for the circumvention of the First Amendment rights of Islamic residents of Manhattan, but wouldn't it be WISER to simply shut the fuck up?


You are, unfortunately, likely already old enough to vote. However, please remember it's never too late to get a vasectomy. Sterilization will likely cause you to be slightly more withdrawn and contemplative, and I suggest you harness that change in mood and read something like this (http://www.examiner.com/civil-rights-in-washington-dc/tim-wise-imagine-if-the-tea-party-was-black).

But this is R&F, so I somehow feel the need to inform you:

You're simply an exceedingly ignorant, base, pathetic piece of shit who doesn't have the fucking guts to own up to your obvious ignorance on the issue at hand. Flying valiantly in the face of 'facts' and 'logic', you "just really don't want it there". Be slightly more self-aggrandizing, please. Srsly.

I'm done here.

[Rasterburn]

Sure you have the RIGHT to stand up and try to argue for the circumvention of the First Amendment rights of Islamic residents of Manhattan, but wouldn't it be WISER to simply shut the fuck up[/B]?

I'll tell you who needs to shut the fuck up: everybody who doesn't live in New York, that's who.

People seem to find it easy to tell some other state what they should or should not accept. But the tune often changes considerably when it's being built in your own backyard.

In the meantime, let's build a recruiting office for the American Nazi Party right next to a Jewish holocaust museum. Would that work for ya's..? Or how about if we dig up Lee Harvey Oswald and move his grave, so that he's buried right next to JFK's tomb. Or maybe we could even build a Church Of Satan right next to St. Patrick's Cathedral.

Doing any of the above would understandably lead to acts of desecration and violence. It's not just a 1st Amendment issue... it's also a civil unrest issue.

And there is still a question regarding the funding of this mosque project. It has been alleged that a sizable percentage of the funding is coming from Saudi Arabia and Iran... nations which have also financially backed terrorists in the past. If it was discovered that some of the people who are covertly funding this project were also involved in the financial backing for the 9/11 attacks, would everyone still feel that same way about allowing this mosque to be built..?

This is not an open-and-shut case. There is much to consider.

[Eternal-Elf]

I'll tell you who needs to shut the fuck up: everybody who doesn't live in New York, that's who.

People seem to find it easy to tell some other state what they should or should not accept. But the tune often changes considerably when it's being built in your own backyard.

In the meantime, let's build a recruiting office for the American Nazi Party right next to a Jewish holocaust museum. Would that work for ya's..? Or how about if we dig up Lee Harvey Oswald and move his grave, so that he's buried right next to JFK's tomb. Or maybe we could even build a Church Of Satan right next to St. Patrick's Cathedral.

Doing any of the above would understandably lead to acts of desecration and violence. It's not just a 1st Amendment issue... it's also a civil unrest issue.

And there is still a question regarding the funding of this mosque project. It has been alleged that a sizable percentage of the funding is coming from Saudi Arabia and Iran... nations which have also financially backed terrorists in the past. If it was discovered that some of the people who are covertly funding this project were also involved in the financial backing for the 9/11 attacks, would everyone still feel that same way about allowing this mosque to be built..?

This is not an open-and-shut case. There is much to consider.

You seem to be missing the point man. People here are so wound up on the fact that not ALL muslims are terrorists that they are blind to the fact that SOME are.
The fact he won't disclose how he got the money when only a year ago he was waiting tables does indicate that it is being funded by Iran.
Is that a problem? Could be ya.

I just love how these people are all about the "constitution" and blah blah blah. The constitution went out the window with Obama's health care plan.

GO over to Iran and try and build a Catholic church.

[Lazortag]

In the meantime, let's build a recruiting office for the American Nazi Party right next to a Jewish holocaust museum. Would that work for ya's..? Or how about if we dig up Lee Harvey Oswald and move his grave, so that he's buried right next to JFK's tomb. Or maybe we could even build a Church Of Satan right next to St. Patrick's Cathedral.


This is a horrible analogy. We're not talking about an al-qaeda training camp - we're talking about a mosque. Like the vast majority of mosques, it will probably be full of moderate muslims who do not espouse hateful ideas or extreme resentment towards the west. Stop generalizing about muslims.

Also E-E, how the fuck did the constitution go out the window because of Obama's healthcare plan?

[azeth]

@ Rasterburn in the above quote.

Flame aside, it's unfortunate you cannot see the difference between Islam and Terrorists.


Does the Jewish Defense League represent Jewish people? No they represent psycho/sociopaths.

[Lazortag]

By the way, here's the FAQ from the group behind the building of the mosque/community centre:

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

Why Cordoba?
The name Cordoba was chosen carefully to reflect a period of time during which Islam played a monumental role in the enrichment of human civilization and knowledge. A thousand years ago Muslims, Jews, and Christians coexisted and created a prosperous center of intellectual, spiritual, cultural and commercial life in Cordoba, Spain.

A Statement from Cordoba Initiative regarding the planned Community Center at 51 Park Place in lower Manhattan

Cordoba Initiative is a multi-faith, non-profit [501(c)(3)] organization. The mission of Cordoba Initiative has always been to build trust and understanding between the Muslim World and the United States. Under our corporate bylaws, the members of any one religion may not occupy more than 50% of the seats on our Board of Directors. (Our Board is currently 50% Muslim and 50% non-Muslim.)

Cordoba Initiative has no formal or legal connection to the Muslim Community Center that has recently been proposed for lower Manhattan.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a founder of Cordoba Initiative and serves as its board chair. As a major proponent of interfaith dialogue and better relations between religions, he has been invited to speak in countless churches and synagogues over the last two decades. At the FBI’s request after 9/11, he provided cultural training to hundreds of its agents, and the U.S. State Department under presidents George W. Bush and Barak Obama has invited him on several extended overseas speaking tours to represent a positive view of the United States and build international respect for our nation.

Daisy Khan is the founder of the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA). Daisy Khan is also Imam Feisal’s wife. ASMA’s mission is to foster an American Muslim identity and build bridges between Muslims and Americans. Committed to pluralism, ASMA focuses on helping Muslim women and youth to improving their lives within their communities through projects on contemporary issues. Daisy is also a board member of the Cordoba Initiative.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan developed the original idea for a cultural center in lower Manhattan, where Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has had a mosque for 27 years. (Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf originally proposed calling the new center the “Cordoba House.” That name created the impression that the Cordoba Initiative was sponsoring the proposed community center, but this was not the case.)

Both Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan are proud to be American citizens.

Below are Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s and Daisy Khan’s personal responses to questions that are frequently asked…

Frequently Asked Questions about the Proposed Community Center Project in Lower Manhattan


Who is organizing this project?
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan originally proposed the idea of a Muslim Community Center in lower Manhattan, where Imam Feisal has had a mosque for 27 years. A real estate developer, Sharif Gamal, was a member of Imam Feisal’s congregation and suggested that a building located at 51 Park Place. might be a good location for the future community center. That was the beginning of the plan. Before any fundraising begins, a new non-profit organization will be formed to raise funds and organize the community center.

What’s the purpose of the Community Center?
Since no comparable Muslim community center exists in New York City, Imam Feisal and Daisy Khan wished to create for Muslim New Yorkers something similar to a YMCA or the 92nd St. Y; and they wanted to include a space for interfaith dialogues and a separate prayer space on one of the floors.

The proposed community center in Lower Manhattan will serve as a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America and globally.


Both Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Ms. Khan are strong advocates for multi-faith collaboration. They share a vision of a community center in which various religious leaders and civil society will work closely together to foster community cohesion and advance the shared goals of moderation, peace and understanding. Through multicultural programs offered by the Cordoba Initiative and ASMA, the community center would crystallize this shared vision of peace into bricks and mortar.


It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood.

The community center will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their culture or background, will find a place of learning, arts and culture, and, most importantly, a community center guided by the universal values of all religions in their truest form – peace, compassion, generosity, and respect for all.



Why are you building “a mosque near Ground zero?”
Strictly speaking, it will not be a “mosque,” although it would have a prayer space on one of its 15 floors. At the beginning, no one considered the fact that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Abdul Rauf’s current mosque is 12 blocks from the Ground Zero site, while the Park51 Community Center location is only 2 and one-half blocks away. We never discussed wanting to be close to Ground Zero; our goal was to find a good real estate opportunity for a community center. 51 Park seemed to fit the bill.

But why so close to Ground Zero?
We were always close to the World Trade Center. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the Imam of a mosque twelve blocks from the Twin Towers for the last 27 years. American Muslims have been peacefully living, working and worshipping in this neighborhood all along and were also terribly affected by the horrific events of 9/11.

We wanted to build a community center in our old neighborhood, and the Park51 location became available. (In our part of lower Manhattan, it’s hard not to be close to Ground Zero.) As Muslim New Yorkers and Americans, we want to help and be part of rebuilding our neighborhood. It is important for everyone to show the world that Americans will not be frightened or deterred by the extremist forces of hatred.

Who is funding the Community Center?
No funds for this project have been raised to date. Before fundraising can begin, a new nonprofit organization will be formed. A project of this scale will require very diverse fundraising sources, including individuals from all faiths and beliefs, including Christians and Jews, who are committed to peace and understanding. We expect that our sources of funding will include individuals of different religions, charitable organizations, public funds, institutional and corporate sponsors.



You will need a lot of contributors. Who will review your donor list?
We will invite the New York Charities Bureau and the US Treasury Department to review our donor list to ensure that all funding sources are vetted to their satisfaction and approved. In addition, the new non-profit’s Trustees and Advisory Board will include a multi-faith group of distinguished individuals who will ensure that the community center stays true to its objectives of peace, tolerance and understanding between all.

How did you purchase the building?
SoHo Properties, a New York real estate development firm based in lower Manhattan, acquired the property a couple of years ago. Sharif El Gamal, owner of SoHo Properties, is a member of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf ’s lower Manhattan congregation, which has been in the neighborhood for decades.

Isn’t the location insensitive given that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims?
 

The events of 9/11 were horrific. What happened that day was terrorism, and it shames us that it was cloaked in the guise of Islam. It was inhumane, un-Islamic and is indefensible regardless of one’s religious persuasion. Not only Americans but also all Muslims are threatened by the lies and actions being perpetrated by these self-serving extremists and their perverted view of Islam.

The community center will be a platform to amplify the voices of the overwhelming majority of Muslims whose love for America and commitment to peace gets drowned out by the actions of a few extremists. It will become a platform where the voices of those who resist religious extremism and terrorism can be amplified and celebrated.

But, why not build it a little bit farther away? Let’s say a mile away?
No one should be driven out of his or her own neighborhood – especially for religious reasons. It is unconstitutional and un-American. Our congregation has been peacefully worshipping in this area for almost three decades. Our neighbors have encouraged us to remain here, and the City and the Community Board have encouraged our continued presence here. The community has backed up their support by approving every resolution and challenge in the community center’s favor.

What about the 9/11 families? Don’t you see their pain?
Like all New Yorkers and Americans we too were devastated by 9/11. We share and respect the incredible pain and loss suffered by the victims of 9/11. We fully recognize their legitimate concerns and sensitivity to the community center. It shames us that extremists who profess to be Muslim perpetrated murder on such a horrific scale for political and financial gain in the name of Islam. We look forward to actively engaging with leaders of the victims of 9/11 to respond to their concerns and obtain their support for our efforts.

Will the extremists take over the Community Center once it’s built?
Extremism on both sides is the danger – it’s what we’re working against. A community center that celebrates diversity and multi-faith collaboration is antithetical to the extremists’ worldview. This center will be a blow to all extremists. In addition, the new organization’s multi-faith Trustees and Board of Advisors will ensure that our good intentions are not hijacked by extremist elements who reject our vision of peace, tolerance and understanding.



Are you not building a project that will be one of conquest? Isn’t this a victory for the extremists?
The community center is opposed to religious extremists of all faiths. It demonstrates that Americans cannot be intimidated and will join together to promote moderation, peace and understanding when challenged.

The extremists will not find victory or comfort in a community center whose sole purpose is to bring peace through multi-faith collaboration and celebrate the diversity of views in our world.

This center is an important step towards building understanding and peace. Just as we strive to understand the faith and traditions of our neighbors, this center will invite others to learn about the true nature of Islam. A religion of peace, tolerance, and understanding.


So what will happen at this community center?
The community center will reach out to all New Yorkers with six programmatic areas: 


1. Culture and Arts - 500-seat auditorium, exhibition


2. Education - Lecture hall, conference rooms, library, classrooms

3. Social Cohesion - cooking classes, senior citizens space, childcare, banquet hall

4. Religion + Healing - Muslim prayer space, Contemplation and reflection area, 9/11 victims memorial


5. Global Engagement - Mapping studies on trends in the Muslim world, providing resources on good governance and principles of liberal democracy, promoting women’s empowerment issues, encouraging youth development, countering religious extremism.


6. Recreation - pool, gym, medical education and wellness programs
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++

Clearing Up False Charges Made Against Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf:

“On 60 Minutes, the Imam said that American Foreign policy is an accessory to terrorism”
The ‘60 Minutes’ piece was completely incorrect as the statement was edited out of context. In the full interview, Imam Feisal describes the mistake the CIA made in the 1980s by financing Osama Bin Laden and strengthening the Taliban. This view is widely shared today by journalists, foreign policy experts and the US government. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf underlines the importance of not supporting “friends of convenience” who may later become our enemies. This is common sense.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is an American who takes his role as a citizen-ambassador very seriously. He is frequently requested by the US State Department to tour Muslim majority and western countries to speak about the merits of American ideals and Muslim integration into Western society. At the request of the FBI after 9/11, he provided cultural training to hundreds of FBI agents.

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf won’t condemn terrorism”
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has always condemned terrorism. Here are his words from his 2004 book, What’s Right with Islam is What’s Right with America: “The truth is that killing innocent people is always wrong – and no argument or excuse, no matter how deeply believed, can ever make it right. No religion on earth condones the killing of innocent people; no faith tradition tolerates the random killing of our brothers and sisters on this earth. God does not want us to kill each other.” He has repeated the same thing in hundreds of speeches around the world.

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has not condemned Hamas”
Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions should be condemned. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his 2004 book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those Muslims who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it.


“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood because his book was translated into Arabic by a publisher with ties to the Brotherhood.”
Both charges are false. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has never had any connection whatsoever to the Muslim Brotherhood. The Arabic translation rights to his 2004 book were arranged by the Arabic book program at the United States Embassy in Cairo.



“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a member of the Perdana Global Peace Organization, which is a funder of the flotilla that attempted to deliver aid to residents of Gaza.”
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has never been a member of this group. Several years ago, Imam Feisal was invited to Malaysia, the most moderate Islamic country in the world, to participate in a Peace Conference sponsored by the Perdana Peace Group. He was one of the hundreds of speakers present. He has no political, advisory or business affiliation of any nature with the Perdana group. A photo of Imam Feisal was taken at the conference, and this has been used to “prove” his membership in the Perdana Global Peace Organization, but the allegation is false. Because of the controversy surrounding Perdana, we have requested the Perdana Group to remove the photo of him from their publicity.

“Imam Feisal wants to establish a ‘shariah state’ in America.”
Actually, quite the contrary. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf believes that all Muslims must adhere to the laws of the land in which they reside, including in America. This is a basic tenet of Islam. He has repeatedly stated that America is already one of the most “Shariah compliant” countries in the world because of America’s adherence to our Bill of Rights and because we allow members of all religions, including Muslims and Jews, to practice their faith freely. In other words, Imam Feisal believes that Muslims practice Shariah when they fast, pray, give to charity and uphold the commandments to protect life, liberty, dignity, the pursuit of happiness and the right to freedom of worship.

“Why isn’t Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf currently in New York? Isn’t he supporting this?”
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf often travels the world in his life-long endeavor to bring the message of moderation, peace and understanding to both Western and Islamic countries.

Currently, he is on a tour organized by the U.S. State Department of three Middle East nations. The purpose of this speaking tour is to further Imam Feisal’s moderate Islamic message of peace and understanding with scholars, religious leaders and political leaders in the region. He has participated in these State Department tours under both President George W. Bush and President Barak Obama.

His absence should not be construed in any way as a diminution of his deep commitment and concern regarding the issues surrounding the Community Center.

It is unfortunate that some events related to the center transpired during his extended travels, but he has full confidence in his staff and and partners – including the team at SoHo Properties and Daisy Khan, his wife and Executive Director of ASMA – to carry on in his absence.


For more information about Park51, please visit: http://www.park51.org.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++

Thank You!
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan express their heartfelt thanks to the following organizations for their support:
September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows
J Street
The Arab American Family Support Center
CLAL–The National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership
Auburn Seminary
American Jewish Committee
Cause New York
Chautauqua Institute
Congregation B'nai Jeshurun
Episcopal Diocese of New York
Faith House Manhattan
Friends of the Arava Institute
Interfaith Youth Core
Intersections
Interfaith Center of New York
The Interfaith Alliance
Jewish Community Center in Manhattan
Lutheran Seafarers and International House
New York Buddhist Church
Odyssey Networks
Manhattan Greens
New Seminary
Out of Cordoba, Averros and Miamonides
NY interfaith Disaster Services
One Voice
One Spirit
St. Bartholomew's Church
Same Difference Interfaith Alliance
The Church of St. Paul and St. Andrew
The Tanenbaum Center
The Foundation for Ethnic Understanding
Trinity Wall Church
The Healing of the Nations Foundation
The Migration Policy Institute
Union Theological Seminary
St. Peters Church
UN Special Envoy for HIV/AIDS in Asia and the Pacific

This answers nearly ALL of the stupid questions in this thread posed by the people who don't support the mosque. If you really believe that these people are extremist muslims trying to masquerade as moderates just to fuck with people, you are SERIOUSLY FUCKING DELUSIONAL.

[Delik]

-23 verified Muslims died in the 9/11 attacks, and no thats not counting the terrorists. Nor is it counting the muslim firefighters and first responders who are dealing with health issues currently or previously.

-The proposed site of the Mosque is approxiamtely 2 blocks away and not even viewable from ground zero

-The proposed site is already used as a prayer center for muslims and has been now for a while.

The only debate I see worth noting is the funding for the Mosque and the developer himself. I seriously doubt either will pass the scrunity required to move this project forward.

[fugazi]

You seem to be missing the point man. People here are so wound up on the fact that not ALL muslims are terrorists that they are blind to the fact that SOME are.
The fact he won't disclose how he got the money when only a year ago he was waiting tables does indicate that it is being funded by Iran.
Is that a problem? Could be ya.

I just love how these people are all about the "constitution" and blah blah blah. The constitution went out the window with Obama's health care plan.

GO over to Iran and try and build a Catholic church.

I like the values my country has and would prefer to stick to them even if other countries don't, so what does it matter whether Iran allows the construction of churches or not? Why are peaceful US citizens not allowed to construct a place of worship or a place of religious education? They have that right according to your constitution. What did they personally do to lose that right?

As for the guy (co-)financing it, isn't he a shareholder of the corporation that owns FoxNews? :rolleyes:

[Lazortag]

There's no debate on the developer himself - he's a valued asset to the US government and frequently works for them, for example by providing cultural training to FBI agents. Anything bad you heard about him was probably from the retarded smear campaign against him. There's a thorough rebuttal to pretty much all of the concerns raised about him in my last post.

[Lazortag]

(responding to Delik)

[Delik]

Yup, those are some good answers to questions people have but just like the smear campaign you mentioned its also meant to counter the smear. Just because our government has asked the man to do things for them does not mean he is "clean". Our government has a habit of backing the wrong people, and then turning on them. I am not against the mosque, I just think the developer and funding will need to be thoroughly investigated and not because its so close to ground zero. Then again I think all big religious projects like this need the same background checks, no matter the religion. There are to many religious juggernauts hiding behind the non-profit shield we give them but spewing their political views which they are not supposed to do to remain non-profit.

[VictoryARC]

I'm re stating my support for the constitutional right for freedom of religion.

The smear campaign is rediculus seeing as how a Saudi prince who owns 7% of the parent company of Fox news is the one funding the mosque.

My concern is the amount of attention placed on the proximity of the Mosque/islamic ctr and the 'percieved' sensitivities that it creates. Weather rational ppl feel threatened or not, there is always a group that will take offense and might possibly react negatively/violently. It doesn't help promoting peace at all. Try doing that with the mosques already near WTC.

[AexDestroy]

The constitution went out the window with Obama's health care plan.

The constitution went out the window so long ago it might as well have not been written.

[Qaedain]

The constitution went out the window with Obama's health care plan.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union... promote the general Welfare...

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Powers not expressed explicity to the federal government being given to the states....

Remember, supremacy clause only applies to those things the federal government has the constitutional right to perform ^_^

[Taxi]

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6104/33333fh.jpg

[Eternal-Elf]

Eternal-elf is a fascist troll, he calls anyone who hes trying to slander a google educated person as if by default anything written on the internet is false. Fucking idiot.

Not you man.....You're a genius.

[Bodeanicus]

The constitution went out the window so long ago it might as well have not been written.

Especially unnder the rule of King George "Shrub" Bush, a.k.a. "The Decider," via "The Patriot Act."

[Goobles]

I think this whole project is about tolerance. The funniest thing I heard at work when I rang some smokes up wrong and I pointed out my error, "25 bucks for a pack of cigarettes anyone?" and the dude goes,"That's Obama for you". I couldn't help myself but laugh, cuz Obama didn't have any effect on our taxes, it's Tim Pawlenty (R-MN). (i.e. tax cuts for businesses, tax for the Twins stadium, among others).

[Hasbinbad]

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6104/33333fh.jpg
rofl

[Goobles]

I think this whole project is about tolerance. The funniest thing I heard at work when I rang some smokes up wrong and I pointed out my error, "25 bucks for a pack of cigarettes anyone?" and the dude goes,"That's Obama for you". I couldn't help myself but laugh, cuz Obama didn't have any effect on our taxes, it's Tim Pawlenty (MN's republican governer). (i.e. tax cuts for businesses, tax for the Twins stadium, among others).

[Eternal-Elf]

rofl

and here I thought you had finally Slit Vertically.

How disappointing.

[Hasbinbad]

and here I thought you had finally Slit Vertically.

How disappointing.
http://obit-mag.com/media/image/mark-twain-writing.jpg

This report of my death was an exaggeration.

[Eternal-Elf]

http://obit-mag.com/media/image/mark-twain-writing.jpg

This report of my death was an exaggeration.

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/fail.gif
No one likes a quitter

[fugazi]

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/fail.gif
No one likes a quitter

I wouldnt mind if you tried tho.

[Eternal-Elf]

I wouldnt mind if you tried tho.

Nice try dude. Mind wanna try your mindless poop-flinging in another thread.

[Rasterburn]

Stop generalizing about muslims.

With all due respect, let's try this generalization:

Not all muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. Fact.

In a broader sense, all muslims -are- terrorists... especially if you are a woman. Because all over the world, Islam encourages oppression and violence towards women. Fact.

So before you tell me that those are generalizations are somehow faulty, make sure that you have -facts- to support your assertion... because I can promise you that I'll respond with page after page of facts, which make it very clear that my generalization is fundamentally accurate. Including some quotations taken directly from the Koran, which speak quite plainly about murdering "infidels" and treating women like slaves.

Being an overly tolerant carebear is nice. Being a realist is a lot better, especially in times like these when the entire world is a powder keg waiting to go off.

[Erasong]

With all due respect, let's try this generalization:

Not all muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. Fact.

In a broader sense, all muslims -are- terrorists... especially if you are a woman. Because all over the world, Islam encourages oppression and violence towards women. Fact.

So before you tell me that those are generalizations are somehow faulty, make sure that you have -facts- to support your assertion... because I can promise you that I'll respond with page after page of facts, which make it very clear that my generalization is fundamentally accurate. Including some quotations taken directly from the Koran, which speak quite plainly about murdering "infidels" and treating women like slaves.

Being an overly tolerant carebear is nice. Being a realist is a lot better, especially in times like these when the entire world is a powder keg waiting to go off.

I think this is your own cynical spin on things and you must know too many muslims first hand. Its like you're describing some wierd alien race. SOME of this stuff MIGHT be true for SOME muslims but jeez, with the number of muslims I have met who think and feel the same as us about everything from senseless wars to womens rights, I just cant believe anything you typed and so neatly labeled fact.

[Rasterburn]

Feel free to invalidate anything that I have said in my previous post. Be sure to cite reliable sources, and not simply personal opinions.

And please remember something important: exceptions do not invalidate the rule. That's why we call them "exceptions." If your Muslim high school buddy (or whatever) is a good guy, then that's great. But there are 1.5 billion Muslims in this world, and the overwhelming majority of them fit my previous description perfectly.

[fugazi]

So if theres a 1000 terrorists on earth and over 500 of 'em are muslims, it's cool to treat over 1.5 billion muslims like shit?

That the Islam as a religion is something you disapprove of has no impact whatsoever on how the US constitution applies to muslim US citizens. Calling yourself realistic is nothing but an excuse to yourself for embracing this bigotry of yours.

I don't like it how women are second-grade citizens in Islamic society, but all that has nothing to do with any of this.

[azeth]

With all due respect, let's try this generalization:

Not all muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. Fact.

In a broader sense, all muslims -are- terrorists... especially if you are a woman. Because all over the world, Islam encourages oppression and violence towards women. Fact.

So before you tell me that those are generalizations are somehow faulty, make sure that you have -facts- to support your assertion... because I can promise you that I'll respond with page after page of facts, which make it very clear that my generalization is fundamentally accurate. Including some quotations taken directly from the Koran, which speak quite plainly about murdering "infidels" and treating women like slaves.

Being an overly tolerant carebear is nice. Being a realist is a lot better, especially in times like these when the entire world is a powder keg waiting to go off.



Rasterburn, someday you will understand how wholly ignorant you are of apparently every aspect of Islam.

Honest question, have you ever considered that you just do not have enough knowledge about something to form a reasonable opinion?

[azeth]

Not all muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. Fact.

this is disgusting. I'm sorry, but you are a fucking moron.

[Itchybottom]

this is disgusting. I'm sorry, but you are a fucking moron.

I support this statement.

[azeth]

Including some quotations taken directly from the Koran, which speak quite plainly about murdering "infidels" and treating women like slaves.

Thanks for showing your hand you fucking bible beater. Let me guess you're a Creationist as well?

[Straif]

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/what-the-mosque-is-vs-what-people-act-like-it-is-543x700.jpg

[Straif]

I don't like it how women are second-grade citizens in Islamic society, but all that has nothing to do with any of this.

I have a similar gripe about this but I guess when you're indoctrinated into it and raised that way culture and lifestyle reinforces it a lot. I'm sort of the the type where if you don't like it, than fuck it, but that's easier here in the states than somewhere else.

[Lazortag]

With all due respect, let's try this generalization:

Not all muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. Fact.


I'm not entirely sure this is true. I know for a fact that the movement that engages in the most suicide bombings is the Tamil Tigers, who are definitely not muslim (I think most Tamils are hindu? I don't know). I wasn't trying to be politically correct when I argued that the poster I was responding to was generalizing about muslims. If the majority of terrorists are of a certain religion, well, pointing that out is just calling a spade a spade. I don't think your post was relevant to mine or to this topic really.

[fastboy21]

I have a similar gripe about this but I guess when you're indoctrinated into it and raised that way culture and lifestyle reinforces it a lot. I'm sort of the the type where if you don't like it, than fuck it, but that's easier here in the states than somewhere else.

i agree with what you say here (that it is easier to accept if you are raised with it), but that logic hardly justifies anything. i believe in moral absolutes (and I know not everyone does) and, by extension, believe that the oppression of women is ALWAYS wrong EVERYPLACE it occurs.

the irony with the dominant radical muslim societies of the middle east is that they have only progressed comparatively to the rest of the world in a backward direction since the middle ages. there was once a time when baghdad, for example, was the cultural and intellectual capital of the world...a leader of medicine, philosophy, etc.

the harsh treatment of women in radical muslim states is not as old a tradition as most people believe. its a relatively modern reactionary set of interpretations of the koran (or, in my opinion, of evil men who use the koran incorrectly to inpower themselves to legitimize their evils)---and, in my opinion, has to do with anything OTHER than the authentic practice of islam.

this is the sort of thing that i was talking about when i said non-radical islam is different...and most of the american muslims I know try very hard to divorce themselves from those radicals who proclaim to be of the same faith as non-radicals.

[fugazi]

I have a similar gripe about this but I guess when you're indoctrinated into it and raised that way culture and lifestyle reinforces it a lot. I'm sort of the the type where if you don't like it, than fuck it, but that's easier here in the states than somewhere else.

I've grown up with muslim families in my social circles, and you see the girls trying to break free everywhere. It's just hard to break free when you know the male part of your family will see you as an outcast when you take that step. But thats another discussion :rolleyes:

[eqdruid76]

The Old Testament in the King James Bible is full of similar shit. Does that make all Christians blood thirsty zealots? Should we judge all Christians by those lunatics fucks who protest soldier's funerals? No, and we shouldn't judge all Muslims but some backwards shit in their holy book either. Punish the individuals transgressors, not the people as a whole.

Deep down, it sure does.

Thou shalt not kill......unless it's in the name of God, then it's fine.

Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.......except we can't agree on what day the Sabbath actually is.

Thou shalt not worship any graven images.....now turn on your televisions and send my evangelists money to heal you.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife....unless thy neighbor is Brad Pitt.

And so on...

[Enderenter]

With all due respect, let's try this generalization:

Not all muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. Fact.


Actually, if you look at the % of terrorists in the world I would have to say more are represented by the religion of Christianity than Islam. KKK, LRA, abortion clinic bombers, just to name a few. They certainly far outweigh (in terms of numbers of people) Al-Qaeda. It would be an interesting study to do, but I'm fairly certain Islam would not be at the top few spots.

In a broader sense, all muslims -are- terrorists... especially if you are a woman. Because all over the world, Islam encourages oppression and violence towards women. Fact.

Is your ethnocentrism really so overpowering that you think that women across the board are treated worse in Islamic culture than in Western culture?

So before you tell me that those are generalizations are somehow faulty, make sure that you have -facts- to support your assertion... because I can promise you that I'll respond with page after page of facts, which make it very clear that my generalization is fundamentally accurate. Including some quotations taken directly from the Koran, which speak quite plainly about murdering "infidels" and treating women like slaves.

I guess you are well versed the Qu'ran. Or maybe you have never read it.

In the case of the latter, I have studied the Qu'ran and spoken with non-Muslim Arabic experts who say that the verses about violence towards infidels are only in the time of war, when a treaty is broken by the opposing "infidels", or in defense. No where does it say to murder infidels who have done nothing.

Feel free to invalidate anything that I have said in my previous post. Be sure to cite reliable sources, and not simply personal opinions.

And please remember something important: exceptions do not invalidate the rule. That's why we call them "exceptions." If your Muslim high school buddy (or whatever) is a good guy, then that's great. But there are 1.5 billion Muslims in this world, and the overwhelming majority of them fit my previous description perfectly.

I guess you know the overwhelming majority of Muslims then? Or are you just stating personal opinions?

I am by no means a Muslim. I am just seeking peace between people in the West and the East. Let's not allow ourselves to be blinded by historically motivated hatred stemming from the Crusades and continuing today with the act of 9/11. The terrorists' chief goal is for there to be no peace. Our goal should not be in line with theirs.

[azeth]

Is your ethnocentrism really so overpowering that you think that women across the board are treated worse in Islamic culture than in Western culture?

this.

commercially altering model's appearances to billboard them and encite young girls to buy products and hate themselves (example) is really just our sociopathic version of forcing them to cover their entire bodies.

^ which by the way many Muslim women prefer as it allows them fair treatment regardless of how their appearance is.

[Reiker]

The "fact" that most terrorists are muslims is bullshit. Most televised terrorists are muslim, yeah probably. I'm sure there's tons of organizations in Africa that you could consider "terrorist groups" except they're killing each other instead of us so no one cares.

[Enderenter]

The "fact" that most terrorists are muslims is bullshit. Most televised terrorists are muslim, yeah probably. I'm sure there's tons of organizations in Africa that you could consider "terrorist groups" except they're killing each other instead of us so no one cares.

Couldn't agree more.

[purist]

You gotta love the colonial feminists in this thread. These are people who, in any other context, behave as the noted male chauvinists and misogynists that they are. But when the topic turns to the Middle East or Islam, all of a sudden they're champions of the feminist cause, advocating a worldwide campaign of waging wars for the liberation of women (on behalf of the White Man, of course).

That's not to say there aren't any valid critiques of womens' status in different Muslim societies, each with their own colonial history. But the type of reductionism many of my fellow atheists engage in, wherein it's all inherently religion's fault.. "The oppresion of women in ___ country is all ___ religion's fault" is just obdurate, willful ignorance. I don't believe you can view religion in a vacuum, as an isolated force removed from any broader political context. The predominant factor determining the role Islam plays and character it takes from Afghanistan to Bosnia to Indonesia is going to reflect the material conditions of that country. This is as opposed to it being a reflection of the inherent character of the religion. Religion is rooted in specific socio-economic conditions and until those are transformed simply dealing with the superstructure means nothing. Base determines superstructure. These issues are linked to culture, misogyny, poverty and above all: the male fear of female advancement.

Then again, that type of dialogue is way above the heads of most people here. Carry on.

[azeth]

That's not to say there aren't any valid critiques of womens' status in different Muslim societies, each with their own colonial history. But the type of reductionism many of my fellow atheists engage in, wherein it's all inherently religion's fault.. "The oppresion of women in ___ country is all ___ religion's fault" is just obdurate, willful ignorance. I don't believe you can view religion in a vacuum, as an isolated force removed from any broader political context. The predominant factor determining the role Islam plays and character it takes from Afghanistan to Bosnia to Indonesia is going to reflect the material conditions of that country. This is as opposed to it being a reflection of the inherent character of the religion. Religion is rooted in specific socio-economic conditions and until those are transformed simply dealing with the superstructure means nothing. Base determines superstructure. These issues are linked to culture, misogyny, poverty and above all: the male fear of female advancement.
.

no kidding, thanks for clearing that up for no one.

[Enderenter]

no kidding, thanks for clearing that up for no one.

Actually, I think he hit a key issue, though his response seems directed not at me or you, but those in the thread who are attacking Islam based on women's rights. (among other things)

[azeth]

I'm sorry but if anyone (regardless of which you're on) is formulating their opinion based on anyone's responses in this thread, you should not be posting.


This includes my own responses. Who the fuck am I to you? I'm grew up a rich white bleeding heart liberal, did you? Why believe me? Why take my perspective?

[Enderenter]

I'm sorry but if anyone (regardless of which you're on) is formulating their opinion based on anyone's responses in this thread, you should not be posting.


This includes my own responses. Who the fuck am I to you? I'm grew up a rich white bleeding heart liberal, did you? Why believe me? Why take my perspective?

I never said I was formulating my opinion based on anything in this thread... I merely thought he made a good point.

Everyone should formulate their own opinion based on reason.

[azeth]

fyi i have disgusting grammar in the quote above me. fml.

also, the internet has a way of loosening intent and delivering flames.

i apologize

[Enderenter]

Don't worry about it, this is R&F after all.

I could care less if I am called a flaming toad or what have you, ss long as the issues are addressed and responded to.

[Toony]

Everyone should formulate their own opinion based on reason.

Stuff like this perhaps How To Stone Someone To Death: A Gruesome Guide (http://www.coolorama.com/featured-articles/how-to-stone-someone-to-death-a-gruesome-guide/)

http://www.picture.im/images/liveleakdo.jpg

Oh wait, perhaps I'm just being a "colonial feminists" :rolleyes:

[Enderenter]

Stuff like this perhaps How To Stone Someone To Death: A Gruesome Guide (http://www.coolorama.com/featured-articles/how-to-stone-someone-to-death-a-gruesome-guide/)

http://www.picture.im/images/liveleakdo.jpg

Oh wait, perhaps I'm just being a "colonial feminists" :rolleyes:

Straw-man fallacy.

Many women are beaten or used as sex tools in America. Does that mean that all Americans do that?

[Toony]

Straw-man fallacy.

Many women are beaten or used as sex tools in America. Does that mean that all Americans do that?

Quote the part where I claimed all Muslims did this memespeak man.

[Enderenter]

Quote the part where I claimed all Muslims did this memespeak man.

Sorry, I assumed you were jumping on the anti-Islam bandwagon.

I agree with you that there are horrible things done in Islam - I just find it hypocritical when people approach that as though their philosophy or religion doesn't. Not that you were implying that, but many people do.

[purist]

So, Toony.. Is your post supposed to have any discernable point? Please tell us what you are trying to say.

[purist]

Hey, Toony. I'm trying to learn how to make fallacious arguments like you do. So, would it be OK if I went ahead and posted some pictures of American women with knife wounds to the face? Women with cigarette burns? Eye sockets depressed inward? Women who were punched in the face for literally 17 years straight whose cheeks, eyes, and nose are all crushed?

You know, I'm talking about the 24 women (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/intimates.cfm) murdered every week in the United States in incidents of domestic abuse by their misogynistic boyfriends and husbands. You know, those ones?

You're right. The six stonings (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/weekinreview/22worth.html?pagewanted=2) in Iran that took place between 2006 and 2008, as well as the seven women currently in Iranian jail under stoning sentences is a clear example of the savage oppression of women.

Unfortunately, oppression of women is worldwide phenomenon, and two years' worth of stonings in Iran is just two days worth of female oppression here in the U.S., measured in homicides alone. Unfortunately, there will always be chauvinists like yourself who will choose to be selective about which women they want to show solidarity with and which ones they choose to ignore, in order to back up your biased and ignorant view of Islam and the Middle East.

So yes, Toony, you ARE the quintessential example of a colonial feminist as I described it: A person who couldn't care less about feminism at home, but suddenly champions feminist values when the topic comes up to the rest of the world.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Harrison]

Comparing criminals to people following their ass-backwards laws, awesome logic!

[azeth]

Let's just drop hasbin in the desert in some american clothes, and since all our army is doing over there is "murdering muslims that didn't do anything to us." Lets just see how far your peaceful and understanding other people gets you in that place. You'll be dead faster than any soldier walking through a town with a gun, guranteed.

http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15297&page=87

misdirected post

[Toony]

Hey, Toony. I'm trying to learn how to make fallacious arguments like you do.

Which fallacious argument would that be?

[Toony]

Comparing criminals to people following their ass-backwards laws, awesome logic!

Who's the criminal in your scenario?

[purist]

Comparing criminals to people following their ass-backwards laws, awesome logic!

When white, Christian men kill women = Totally unrelated to misogyny or oppression of women, it's just a random criminal act

When brown, Muslim men kill and oppress women = Islam!!!1! hurr derrp!!

[Harrison]

When white, Christian men kill women = Totally unrelated to misogyny or oppression of women, it's just a random criminal act

When brown, Muslim men kill and oppress women = Islam!!!1! hurr derrp!!

Except, there is a LAW there that supports them. What part of this don't you grasp?

We have laws against it. They have laws that support it. Simple.

[Taxi]

To me i think "fanatic" islam is a threat. It is hugely oppressive of women, will chop your head off for saying you dont beleive in god etc etc... But there are moderate muslims, just like theres crackpots christians who bomb abortion clinics and the martin luther king type christian.

Where the buck stops for me, is when this fringe of islam is used as an excuse to perpetrate all kinds of oppression against muslims that might push them toward a more fanatic fringe of islam. Say when we bomb their weddings and kill half their family in afghanistan without so much of a OOPS! SORRY!. To me this is what the hysteria against the NY mosque represents. Using a fanatical fringe of islam to oppress the rest of muslims, and why not, every fucking brown foreigner as well, because... well, just because.

[Itchybottom]

Except, there is a LAW there that supports them. What part of this don't you grasp?

We have laws against it. They have laws that support it. Simple.

This is a morality issue that has no doubt existed since the Code of Hammurabi was scribed. There really isn't a right or wrong when involving law (ie, stoning someone to death.) That is up to the people who established and follow those laws in their own respective invisible line land masses.

I don't condone loss of life, but I can't readily argue against a societies' system that has worked for them for longer than the country I live in either.

[Hasbinbad]

You gotta love the colonial feminists in this thread. These are people who, in any other context, behave as the noted male chauvinists and misogynists that they are. But when the topic turns to the Middle East or Islam, all of a sudden they're champions of the feminist cause, advocating a worldwide campaign of waging wars for the liberation of women (on behalf of the White Man, of course).

That's not to say there aren't any valid critiques of womens' status in different Muslim societies, each with their own colonial history. But the type of reductionism many of my fellow atheists engage in, wherein it's all inherently religion's fault.. "The oppresion of women in ___ country is all ___ religion's fault" is just obdurate, willful ignorance. I don't believe you can view religion in a vacuum, as an isolated force removed from any broader political context. The predominant factor determining the role Islam plays and character it takes from Afghanistan to Bosnia to Indonesia is going to reflect the material conditions of that country. This is as opposed to it being a reflection of the inherent character of the religion. Religion is rooted in specific socio-economic conditions and until those are transformed simply dealing with the superstructure means nothing. Base determines superstructure. These issues are linked to culture, misogyny, poverty and above all: the male fear of female advancement.

Then again, that type of dialogue is way above the heads of most people here. Carry on.
This is perhaps the most lucid, well thought out piece of writing anyone has ever posted on the p99 boards..

However, it does nothing more than make me think of these filthy peasants arguing with King Arthur:

http://filmfanatic.org/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mphg-peasants.png

[Enderenter]

You're right. The six stonings (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/weekinreview/22worth.html?pagewanted=2) in Iran that took place between 2006 and 2008, as well as the seven women currently in Iranian jail under stoning sentences is a clear example of the savage oppression of women.

Unfortunately, oppression of women is worldwide phenomenon, and two years' worth of stonings in Iran is just two days worth of female oppression here in the U.S., measured in homicides alone. Unfortunately, there will always be chauvinists like yourself who will choose to be selective about which women they want to show solidarity with and which ones they choose to ignore, in order to back up your biased and ignorant view of Islam and the Middle East.

So yes, Toony, you ARE the quintessential example of a colonial feminist as I described it: A person who couldn't care less about feminism at home, but suddenly champions feminist values when the topic comes up to the rest of the world.

Thanks for proving my point.

Wow, nice research. I'm impressed.

[Eternal-Elf]

Wow, nice research. I'm impressed.

Must not take much to impress you

[fugazi]

You don't sound like a very judgmental person at all.

[Toony]

Wow, nice research. I'm impressed.

Yeah, easily impressed I guess. He seemed to want to single out Iran (which I never specifically mentioned) yet from the same article he's quoting he forgot this lil tid-bit on Afghanistan

“There is no way to say how many stonings took place, but it was widespread” when the Taliban ruled, said Nader Nadery, a senior commissioner on the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. “Often the man escaped, and the woman only was punished, especially if he had connections or was a member of the Taliban.” Other sexual crimes were accorded similarly grotesque penalties: homosexuals, for instance, had a brick wall collapsed onto them.

And

In Afghanistan, by contrast, stoning seems to be on the rise, despite its unpopularity.

“You do see an increase in these so-called applications of justice by the Taliban in morality cases,” Mr. Nadery said. “Over the last seven months, 200 people have been killed for showing disapproval or criticizing actions by the Taliban.”

This guy wants to talk about women being abused by husbands and boyfriends which is ILLEGAL in the same light as these SENTENCES being carried out.... sentences for "crimes" like adultery and criticizing the government.

[Eccentricaa]

How did he get 100 million dollars in a year after waiting tables......
Why do they want to do it........
What are their intentions???

Eh...

Well.. to answer your first question...

Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, the main benefactor behind The Kingdom Foundation, owns a $2.3 billion stake in News Corp., according to Yahoo's John Cook, and, in turn, News Corp. purchased a $70 million stake in a Saudi media company owned by Al-Waleed in February.

The guy building the mosque, and stirring up the controversy... IS OWNER OF FOX NEWS. (he is largest shareholder outside the Murdoch family)



Question two..
Why would your church, want to build a community center? Im pretty sure its for the same reasons.. There are people of their faith, living in the area, who wish to have it. Supply vs Demand.

Question three..
See response for question two...


The mosque isnt even near ground zero.. Its in "lower manhattan" Which is a fairly large area, bigger than some entire cities..

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/

http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk/article/john-stewart-ground-zero-mosque-funding-souce-owns-fox-news/19606385

I think its best, that everyone just turn OFF FAUX NEWS. Its not really news anyway. In their broadcasting day, (according to Fox) they only have FOUR HOURS OF NEWS. The rest of the day, although presented as news, is opinions, commentary, debates and NewsTainment. They create rumors, then present those rumors as fact.. using the simple statement, "according to sources".... If you want real news, Try Therealnewsnetwork.com Or maybe BBC, PBS, or anything other than a company who's main goal isnt to inform people, but to get advertising dollars, and to make money.

[fastboy21]

its the exact same type of arguments they threw out when i pointed the finger at radical islam.

they point out that there are women who are abused in the US and then conclude that anyone, therefore, who points the finger at Iran (for example) for women's rights violations is just ethnocentric and can't see the evils in their own country.

they fail to see the lop sided asymmetry between comparing women's rights violations in the US and Iran.

Someone even twisted the facts by saying, in effect, "there are only 7 women scheduled to die in Iran by stoning and only 6 were killed over a three year period" compared to how many women are murdered, beaten, raped, or otherwise degraded every day in the USA. (By the way, I call bull shit on the source you cited...most of the stonings in Iran take place at a local level in rural areas. So I have real doubts about accurate numbers in any report).

This type of logic fails to account for the fact that under radical muslim law a woman is essentially the property of her father and then later the property of her husband. she is denied access to education and freedom of expression even within her own home. it is enforced by the state.

Anyone who wants to believe that women are better off in Iran than they are in the USA is sticking their head in the sand. Sure, not EVERY woman in the USA is better off than EVERY woman in Iran. That is hardly the point.

Its gotten to the point where anytime an American looks around the world and sees something that is immoral or unjust he is called everything from ethnocentric to racist to ignorant. Sometimes, its not just some ignorant American pointing the finger at some culture he just doesn't take an interest in understanding.

[Eccentricaa]

Its gotten to the point where anytime an American looks around the world and sees something that is immoral or unjust he is called everything from ethnocentric to racist to ignorant. Sometimes, its not just some ignorant American pointing the finger at some culture he just doesn't take an interest in understanding.

Agree with you there. Morality is subjective. The concept of just and unjust also varies by country, religion, as well as changes in time. There was a time in America when eye for an eye, was a just punishment. Now, cutting off a persons hand, hanging them from a tree, dragging them behind a horse, or burning them for being witches would seem cruel or unusual.

The constitution was designed to be flexible enough to change with the times, but strong enough to prevent abuse of powers. The separation of church and state was to ensure that government would not interfere in the matters of the church. It was the churches that wanted to keep government out of their business.

Times have changed, for what ever reason, churches no longer wish to see separation of church and state and tend to ignore that aspect of the constitution.

[Orkimedes]

they can have a mosque on ground zero when we can have a disney land in mecca.


muslims wear thier evil on thier face like a mask

[Lazortag]

they can have a mosque on ground zero when we can have a disney land in mecca.

When I was a kid I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right. If we want majority-muslim countries to allow greater religious freedom (something which was a foreign policy objective of the Bush administration and presumably also of the Obama administration), maybe we should set the example. I just don't see how your suggestion is at all productive.

[Harrison]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/09/04/iran.stoning/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

Lol women's rights in Iran supported by their laws...ohwai-

[Straif]

Next time I catch a body I'm screaming out Allah's name, son

[Rasterburn]

they can have a mosque on ground zero when we can have a disney land in mecca.

...or when they let us open a Hooters restaurant within every capital city of the Muslim world.

[joran]

how bout they can have a mosque when we have a mcdonalds in every capital city of the muslim world... o wait...

[Rasterburn]

Let's take a realistic look at the religion that some of you are defending...

Quote from a recent "Sharia law" case in Afghanistan:

"The court ruled that her nose and ears must be cut off. The act was carried out by her husband in the mountains of Oruzgan, where they left her to die."

Got it..? The court ruled this... not just some fringe area case of "bad Muslims." A fucking COURT declared that an innocent and beautiful young woman should be horribly and sadistically disfigured for life. No anesthesia, no pity, no human rights, no decency whatsoever... she was simply held down, whilst her own husband began slicing off parts of her face with a knife. I can not even imagine her agony and terror.

This is not some unusual or isolated case, either. These nasty little Sharia "courts" exist in every single Muslim-ruled nation on this planet. We can dig up thousands and thousands of examples of Muslim backwardness and brutality, by doing a simple Google search. At its core, Islam is an evil religion controlled by equally evil people. Period. That's not an opinion -- it's a tragic fact.

Let's take an even closer look. Here's just a few images of the MILLIONS of victims of Muslim law:

http://images41.fotki.com/v9/photos/5/1222605/7482072/BeBeaisha-vi.jpg

http://images12.fotki.com/v213/photos/5/1222605/7482072/zahida-vi.jpg

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00545/Afghanistan_545575a.jpg

http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Sharia_Muslim_Women.jpg

...but by all means, let's be tolerant of Islam. They've certainly been tolerant of us and.... oh, wait. 9/11... right. I forgot. And the kidnapping and beheadings of non-Muslims. Forgot about them, too. Oh and the numerous suicide bombers who routinely blow civilians apart in Israel, Spain, Indonesia and elsewhere. We forgot about them, too.

Fuck tolerance. I don't tolerate a black widow spider... I squash it when I see it. I don't plead with it to be a good little spider and stop poisoning people, nor do I try to appease it. And I understand that the black widow spider can't help being nasty and potentially dangerous... but that's kind of the whole point, is it not..?

[Abacab niggah]

Let's take a realistic look at the religion that some of you are defending...

Quote from a recent "Sharia law" case in Afghanistan:

"The court ruled that her nose and ears must be cut off. The act was carried out by her husband in the mountains of Oruzgan, where they left her to die."

Got it..? The court ruled this... not just some fringe area case of "bad Muslims." A fucking COURT declared that an innocent and beautiful young woman should be horribly and sadistically disfigured for life. No anesthesia, no pity, no human rights, no decency whatsoever... she was simply held down, whilst her own husband began slicing off parts of her face with a knife. I can not even imagine her agony and terror.

This is not some unusual or isolated case, either. These nasty little Sharia "courts" exist in every single Muslim-ruled nation on this planet. We can dig up thousands and thousands of examples of Muslim backwardness and brutality, by doing a simple Google search. At its core, Islam is an evil religion controlled by equally evil people. Period. That's not an opinion -- it's a tragic fact.

Let's take an even closer look. Here's just a few images of the MILLIONS of victims of Muslim law:

http://images41.fotki.com/v9/photos/5/1222605/7482072/BeBeaisha-vi.jpg

http://images12.fotki.com/v213/photos/5/1222605/7482072/zahida-vi.jpg

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00545/Afghanistan_545575a.jpg

http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Sharia_Muslim_Women.jpg

...but by all means, let's be tolerant of Islam. They've certainly been tolerant of us and.... oh, wait. 9/11... right. I forgot. And the kidnapping and beheadings of non-Muslims. Forgot about them, too. Oh and the numerous suicide bombers who routinely blow civilians apart in Israel, Spain, Indonesia and elsewhere. We forgot about them, too.

Fuck tolerance. I don't tolerate a black widow spider... I squash it when I see it. I don't plead with it to be a good little spider and stop poisoning people, nor do I try to appease it. And I understand that the black widow spider can't help being nasty and potentially dangerous... but that's kind of the whole point, is it not..?


Some picture examples of Eurocentric-Christian brutality:

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~jhwillia/salemcourt.jpg

http://www.kosherdelight.com/inquisition2.gif

http://grumpyvegan.com/images/blog/civil-rights-dogs.jpg

http://www.ptgustan.com/mar08/duluth3.jpg

http://www.historycentral.com/Today/abu_ghraib.jpg


The point is, people regardless of race, religion or creed will act out violently to those they deem "inferior" which could be anything from the color of your skin, what you are born as, or the way you think and act.

It's a dark deep smudge on our existence that we sadistically torture others for no other benefit than to see them suffer, and we've always had the drive and as I said it's a shame because not even the most aggressive of carnivores in the animal kingdom behave this way... We are a despicable class all on our own living in a world of classical music, rape and ultraviolence,

[Lazortag]

Rasterburn is an idiot. Just because a "court" decided something doesn't mean that moderate islam is automatically brutal and evil. That really was his only argument. A "court" ruled it so that proves that even their "moderates" are crazy scimitar-wielding, uncivilized brutes.

In this historical moment there are a lot of widely-documented human rights violations being committed by muslims. If you're completely ignorant you'll automatically deduce that these crimes were committed because Islam is an inherently evil religion, or somehow moreso evil than other religions. I guess this is possible, but really unlikely - it's not clear how Islamic canon is any more evil than Christian canon (have you ever read Deuteronomy? Holy fuck, there's even a passage that encourages taking women as prisoners of war and marrying them without their consent), suggesting that there should be an equal number of Christian terrorists as well. In science we're told that when you have the same stimulus, you should get the same response. So maybe there's something else that causes such a high number of Muslim terrorists (note that I'm not even sure that Muslim terrorists are in the majority, because as I mentioned before (and was completely ignored), the Tamil Tigers commit the most suicide bombings and aren't Muslim). Maybe Muslim-majority countries are just poorer than non-Muslim countries, or maybe Islam just has more "revolutionary appeal" than other religions (similar to how Marxism had revolutionary appeal for many anti-colonial nationalists in Africa, who identified as Marxists even though their beliefs weren't exactly Marxist (like the ANC in South Africa, or ZANU in Zimbabwe)). I guess a crazy conservative like Rasterturd would probably argue that Marxist thought also leads to terrorist activity based on these historical examples, but if you have half a brain, you'll know that this just isn't a cogent explanation and doesn't take into account all of the factors involved.

As I said before, while there may be a lot of terrorism committed by people who identify as Muslims, that doesn't mean that Islamic thought is an efficient condition for terrorism. Between 700-1200 AD the majority of discoveries in science, medicine and mathematics were made by Muslims, and the most egregious rights violations were committed by Christians. They were the civil ones back then. Why would it be any different now, if Islam is simply "inherently evil"? It's just not a sound explanation.

[Lazortag]

...but by all means, let's be tolerant of Islam. They've certainly been tolerant of us and.... oh, wait. 9/11... right. I forgot. And the kidnapping and beheadings of non-Muslims. Forgot about them, too. Oh and the numerous suicide bombers who routinely blow civilians apart in Israel, Spain, Indonesia and elsewhere. We forgot about them, too.

Also, I love how Rasterburn has totally figured out the Israeli-Palestinian conflict all by himself.

[purist]

Rasterburn would definitely be an Islamist jihadist if he was born on the other side of the world. I mean, just replace everytime he says the word "Islam" with "America" and you have Osama bin Laden right there.

...but by all means, let's be tolerant of [America]. They've certainly been tolerant of us and.... oh, wait. [the invasion and military occupations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine]... right. I forgot. And the [kidnappings, assassinations and indefinite detention] of [our Muslim brothers]. Forgot about them, too. Oh and the numerous [bombings, shooting and indiscriminate murder] who routinely blow civilians apart in [Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan] and elsewhere. We forgot about them, too.

Fuck tolerance. I don't tolerate a black widow spider... I squash it when I see it. I don't plead with it to be a good little spider and stop poisoning people, nor do I try to appease it. And I understand that the black widow spider can't help being nasty and potentially dangerous... but that's kind of the whole point, is it not..?

[Abacab niggah]

Rasterburn would definitely be an Islamist jihadist if he was born on the other side of the world. I mean, just replace everytime he says the word "Islam" with "America" and you have Osama bin Laden right there.

Being one of the few people who visit this board who practices Islam, we all don't go around screaming Hakaam! Hakaam! I'm muslim but I drink, I smoke the drugs, and I have sexual relations with women outside of marriage..,

You know why? Cause I'm no more of an extremist than anyone that attends the Presbyterian church down the street, and I'm sorry to inform you not everyone that goes to that church is a Phelps or Conwell clone.

[...Raren]

http://i53.tinypic.com/2819b8k.jpg

Raren and Abacab are going to take over Norrath

[Abacab niggah]

http://i53.tinypic.com/2819b8k.jpg

Raren and Abacab are going to take over Norrath

They're Abacab and Raren
Yes, Abacab and Raren
One is trollin'
The other's causin' trains.
They've been banned at least twice
Their proxies have been iced
They're Arab
They're Abacab and Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren.

Before each night is done
Their plan will be unfurled
By the dawning of the sun
They'll take over the world.

They're Abacab and Raren
Yes, Abacab and Raren
Their R&F campaign
Is easy to explain.
To prove their always right

They'll argue through the night
They're Arab
They're Abacab and Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren.

[Harrison]

Being one of the few people who visit this board who practices Islam, we all don't go around screaming Hakaam! Hakaam! I'm muslim but I drink, I smoke the drugs, and I have sexual relations with women outside of marriage..,

You know why? Cause I'm no more of an extremist than anyone that attends the Presbyterian church down the street, and I'm sorry to inform you not everyone that goes to that church is a Phelps or Conwell clone.

I don't think anyone is actually saying that every single Muslim, ever, is evil.

What I am saying, however, is that their laws are STILL fucking backwards to this day.

You can't compare 2010 to the Inquisition, Crusades, Salem witch trials, etc.. That's apples to oranges.

Compare 2010 to 2010 and you'll be making a much more valid point.

[Lazortag]

I don't think anyone is actually saying that every single Muslim, ever, is evil.

What I am saying, however, is that their laws are STILL fucking backwards to this day.

You can't compare 2010 to the Inquisition, Crusades, Salem witch trials, etc.. That's apples to oranges.

Compare 2010 to 2010 and you'll be making a much more valid point.

What are "their laws"? Again, you claim not to be generalizing, but then you generalize in the next line. Even Sharia Law isn't something static - it's a system that changes substantially depending on where it's applied. You won't find one codified version of sharia law that's used everywhere - you probably won't even find one that's used in more than one place.

The problem isn't that Islamic law is uniquely "evil" - it's that any non-secular legal system is unjust, and you just happen to find more theocracies that are Islamic in the world today than you find theocracies of other religions.

The most frustrating thing about this thread is that the people opposed to the building of the mosque can't even formulate a decent argument. Please do us all a favor and structure your post like this for clarity's sake: "I don't support the building of the mosque [or their right to build the mosque] because "__________". Fill in the blank for me.

[Hasbinbad]

They're Abacab and Raren
Yes, Abacab and Raren
One is trollin'
The other's causin' trains.
They've been banned at least twice
Their proxies have been iced
They're Arab
They're Abacab and Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren.

Before each night is done
Their plan will be unfurled
By the dawning of the sun
They'll take over the world.

They're Abacab and Raren
Yes, Abacab and Raren
Their R&F campaign
Is easy to explain.
To prove their always right

They'll argue through the night
They're Arab
They're Abacab and Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren, Raren.
I think if it was "Raren & Abacaaab, Abacaaab, Abacaaab, Abacaaab," that it would make much more sense; if one is a genius and the other insane, I would say that Raren is most definitely not the genius.

[Hasbinbad]

I think if it was "Raren & Abacaaab, Abacaaab, Abacaaab, Abacaaab," that it would make much more sense; if one is a genius and the other insane, I would say that Raren is most definitely not the genius.
That being said..

i lol'd.

[Hasbinbad]

What are "their laws"? Again, you claim not to be generalizing, but then you generalize in the next line. Even Sharia Law isn't something static - it's a system that changes substantially depending on where it's applied. You won't find one codified version of sharia law that's used everywhere - you probably won't even find one that's used in more than one place.

The problem isn't that Islamic law is uniquely "evil" - it's that any non-secular legal system is unjust, and you just happen to find more theocracies that are Islamic in the world today than you find theocracies of other religions.

The most frustrating thing about this thread is that the people opposed to the building of the mosque can't even formulate a decent argument. Please do us all a favor and structure your post like this for clarity's sake: "I don't support the building of the mosque [or their right to build the mosque] because "__________". Fill in the blank for me.
Lazor, I don't like you usually, but this post is win.

[Harrison]

Oh, I'd like to add: I don't give a flying fuck if they build another mosque.

It is more insulting to the entire religion of Islam that we're thinking of doing it, than to the "opposing side", in my opinion.

It's like those people who try to be anti-racist sooooooo hard, they end up being racist far more than what they're deposing. It is insulting to imply someone needs an apology rather than giving it freely.

[Harrison]

That should read: "opposing", and not "deposing".

[Abacab niggah]

I don't think anyone is actually saying that every single Muslim, ever, is evil.

What I am saying, however, is that their laws are STILL fucking backwards to this day.

You can't compare 2010 to the Inquisition, Crusades, Salem witch trials, etc.. That's apples to oranges.

Compare 2010 to 2010 and you'll be making a much more valid point.

Alright.

Army of God
Hutaree
Lord's Resistance Army
IRA
National Liberation Front of Tripura
Sons of Freedom
Ku Klux Klan
NSCN
Russain National Unity

Take your pick, all of the above are CHRISTIAN based terrorist groups that are active to this day, some bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors, some bomb civilians and riot for their causes, some capture and "force" people to convert...

Basically the same shit as Al-Qaeda, Taliban, and PLF fringe groups

[Hasbinbad]

Alright.

Army of God
Hutaree
Lord's Resistance Army
IRA
National Liberation Front of Tripura
Sons of Freedom
Ku Klux Klan
NSCN
Russain National Unity

Take your pick, all of the above are CHRISTIAN based terrorist groups that are active to this day, some bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors, some bomb civilians and riot for their causes, some capture and "force" people to convert...

Basically the same shit as Al-Qaeda, Taliban, and PLF fringe groups
I don't know about the other orgs, and I know that most practitioners are Catholic, but the IRA and pIRA are secular organizations.

[Harrison]

That all has nothing to do with what I said, but I get your point.

You're still ignoring the fact that every single one of those listed are criminals, whereas what is done in my link especially, is lawful in these places.

It is a very simple statement that doesn't need to be countered with: "BUT BUT BUT LOOK AT WHAT THEEEEEEEEY DO TOO"

Lawful != Illegal

[Hasbinbad]

..also, calling the IRA a terrorist group is kind of glib. Ireland is *still* an occupied country. If yer going to differentiate the PLO/PLF from "fringe groups," then you should fucking know better.

[Abacab niggah]

..also, calling the IRA a terrorist group is kind of glib. Ireland is *still* an occupied country. If yer going to differentiate the PLO/PLF from "fringe groups," then you should fucking know better.

It goes to the saying "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist" because in the case of a majority of these groups the ends justify the means. So yeah, they're fighting for their freedom but at the same time to average citizen who gets immolated by a moltov during some street parade they would be considered terrorists.

[Harrison]

Freedom fighters don't intentionally kill women and children. A spade is a spade. Terrorism is terrorism regardless of who is doing it.

Collateral damage isn't the same as intentional murdering of civilians. (Blah blah, dead is dead, before you even bleat it. The intention defines it in this discussion.)

[Abacab niggah]

the IRA and pIRA are secular organizations.

IRA has been broken and reformed into several paramilitary groups, some of which target protestant places of gathering such as the following event:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0727/1224251382252.html

So even if their aims aren't totally religious in nature (as in converting non-believers) they have in the past and still do to this day target protestant organizations within Northern Ireland mostly due to the affiliations with the British church.

[Abacab niggah]

That all has nothing to do with what I said, but I get your point.

You're still ignoring the fact that every single one of those listed are criminals, whereas what is done in my link especially, is lawful in these places.

It is a very simple statement that doesn't need to be countered with: "BUT BUT BUT LOOK AT WHAT THEEEEEEEEY DO TOO"

Lawful != Illegal

You're missing the point that the reason these things are "lawful" is because those extremists groups have seated power. On the norm it' usually not democratic but either by coup or election fraud, so anyone of those terrorist groups I listed has the potential to gain political power and or influence if situations bare in their favor.

So you really can't complain that these atrocities are the norm and they're "ok" because in this case a bullet goes much further than a ballot and when you're living in an impoverished politically distraught nation such as Afghanistan it makes it a hot bed for all sorts of fucked up ideologies and paramilitary groups.

[Harrison]

You're missing the point that the reason these things are "lawful" is because those extremists groups have seated power. On the norm it' usually not democratic but either by coup or election fraud, so anyone of those terrorist groups I listed has the potential to gain political power and or influence if situations bare in their favor.

So you really can't complain that these atrocities are the norm and they're "ok" because in this case a bullet goes much further than a ballot and when you're living in an impoverished politically distraught nation such as Afghanistan it makes it a hot bed for all sorts of fucked up ideologies and paramilitary groups.

You're reinforcing my point...

[Abacab niggah]

Freedom fighters don't intentionally kill women and children.

It's usually not the third party regarding a group as a "freedom fighter" labels such as that tend to be self-inclusive. To the people getting blown up as collateral, or being tortured in the name of this groups ideological sociopathy they simply are terrorists, but to the group committing these atrocities narcissism overrides logic and every act is considered good sake; due to the fact the people rallying against them would be considered enemies and or detrimental to their cause, again a narcissistic trait.

[Lazortag]

Just replace the word "muslim" with "african" and Harrison's argument still holds. Most African states have weak, sometimes backward legal systems, but from that you wouldn't draw any inferences like "well that proves Africans are bad people because they enshrine fucked up things in law"

[Abacab niggah]

Just replace the word "muslim" with "african" and Harrison's argument still holds. Most African states have weak, sometimes backward legal systems, but from that you wouldn't draw any inferences like "well that proves Africans are bad people because they enshrine fucked up things in law"

Bunch of AIDS infested baby raping, hyena taming, diamond jewing, baboon looking faggots the bunch of em!

[Lazortag]

Did you have to use the word "faggots"? Come on now, that's just vulgar.

[Hasbinbad]

Bunch of AIDS infested baby raping, hyena taming, diamond jewing, baboon looking faggots the bunch of em!
Quit talking shit about American white people pls.

[Abacab niggah]

Quit talking shit about American white people pls.

I can't help it! They crowd the Taco Bell with their impurity!

[Hasbinbad]

I can't help it! They crowd the Taco Bell with their impurity!
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae310/macoftheyear/cantinatacos.jpg

[Rasterburn]

...but from that you wouldn't draw any inferences like "well that proves Africans are bad people because they enshrine fucked up things in law"

Yes actually, I would.

[Seaweedpimp]

Maybe they should build 2 ???

[Taxi]

That all has nothing to do with what I said, but I get your point.

You're still ignoring the fact that every single one of those listed are criminals, whereas what is done in my link especially, is lawful in these places.

It is a very simple statement that doesn't need to be countered with: "BUT BUT BUT LOOK AT WHAT THEEEEEEEEY DO TOO"

Lawful != Illegal

What about bombing Iraq and afghanistan telling the nation that God told you you were on the right side? (Like Bush did). With a company that puts bible quotes on sniper rifle scopes? With mercenaries that are there on a mission from god?

The nazis were hanged in nuremberg mainly for invading Poland.

There is laws against what NATO is doing in afghanistan and Iraq but they are above the law it seems, the international criminal court is just for black people and people with funny eastern european names.

[Rasterburn]

What about bombing Iraq and afghanistan telling the nation that God told you you were on the right side?

God didn't tell Bush to do it. Exxon-Mobil, British Petroleum, the Carlisle Group and Haliburton did.

[Taxi]

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4017/islamdevil.jpg

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1623/facebookislam.jpg

[Taxi]

Bonus points for black face on the cover of his book. Bigot bonus points that is.

[Erasong]

Yes actually, I would.

well, you're a douche then.



Abacab i rattled off all those christian/catholic based terrorist groups like, on page 3 and it got ignored. did you really think the xenophobes would listen to your list any more?

[Rasterburn]

well, you're a douche then.


You live in Staten Island..? That's very close to me.

Let's get together, so you can call me a "douche" to my face.

[azeth]

ty

[Taxi]

Berlin, may 1933

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7872/bookburning.jpg

[Erasong]

You live in Staten Island..? That's very close to me.

Let's get together, so you can call me a "douche" to my face.

I have NP calling you a douche to your face. lol internet threats.

[Erasong]

I think you fail to realize.. i live in Staten Island. Makes you think id shrug away from a fight anyway? You're some big bad tough guy huh? ROFL. Besides tho, watching you make some half assed bullshti internet threat is lulzy.

[Rasterburn]

I have NP calling you a douche to your face.

Excellent. PM me with your name and address and I'll hop on the train. I'm looking forward to meeting you.

[Erasong]

You'll take forever by train, since there isnt one that comes here. try the ferry. or the SI79 from brooklyn.

[Taxi]

Excellent. PM me with your name and address and I'll hop on the train. I'm looking forward to meeting you.

Tough guys dont talk like you do, tough guys are the wiry shrimps you thought you could bully, you corner him like lol fucking shrimp and then he stabs you in the neck. Tough guys dont bark, they bite.

I think you should stay out of the being tough business if you are trying to meet up strangers to have fights over the internet, or you might find yourself winning a Darwin award.

[Rasterburn]

I am aware of how to get there. I'll be taking the train to the ferry terminal. And I'm waiting for that PM.

[Rasterburn]

Tough guys dont talk like you do, tough guys are the wiry shrimps you thought you could bully, you corner him like lol fucking shrimp and then he stabs you in the neck. Tough guys dont bark, they bite.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not making any threats... I'm just giving him an opportunity to call me a "douche" to my face. Simple as that.

[Enderenter]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not making any threats... I'm just giving him an opportunity to call me a "douche" to my face. Simple as that.

Since this is R&F, I'll just say this: you're an idiot.

[Erasong]

youll be waiting forever and a day. As much as id love to call you on your bullshit dude, and trust me, its bullshit, you arent doing SHIT to me, I have a wife and kids to think about first on the off chance you're one of these crazies who shoot up the place becuase someone hurt your feelings online. Youll have to settle for a fat ass FUCK YOU and DOUCHE and eat the fact that you cant do anything about it. Threats are one thing, being prepared for them is another, and taking unnecessary risks is a whole nother bag of shit.



Oh ya, you're still a douche. Douche. And living in NYC you should be ashamed of the way you judged africans. Next youll tell me african americans are all criminals too right. Then i guess Im typing this message from jail and you can meet me on rykers

[BlackBellamy]

It's "Rikers" you illiterate black criminal.

[Erasong]

wouldnt know. never been there.

[purist]

guys be careful Rasterburn talks a mean talk on the internet he must be a bad ass, wow he said "say it 2 mai fayce" and asked YOU to send HIM YOUR address on the internet.. wow that really took courage bro

[Rasterburn]

youll be waiting forever and a day. As much as id love to call you on your bullshit dude, and trust me, its bullshit, you arent doing SHIT to me

That's the answer that I was expecting from you.
All talk and no action, like most internet nerds.
Your wife must be embarrassed to be married to
a gutless punk like you. I pity her. Unless she's fat.

Another cowardly, chicken shit pussy bites the dust. :rolleyes:

[azeth]

chicken shit pussy

thankyou for giving me another term for real life use.

[purist]

Rasterburn is so fucking hardcore that he'll ask you to give him YOUR address on the internet when he challenges you to call him names to his face

[Erasong]

That's the answer that I was expecting from you.
All talk and no action, like most internet nerds.
Your wife must be embarrassed to be married to
a gutless punk like you. I pity her. Unless she's fat.

Another cowardly, chicken shit pussy bites the dust. :rolleyes:

you confuse bravery with stupidity and since your words are far off the mark, they hold no weight. watch this. douche. see? rage more about how we should meet up irl tough guy.

[Erasong]

Rasterburn is so fucking hardcore that he'll ask you to give him YOUR address on the internet when he challenges you to call him names to his face

the funny part of this is this talking lump of shit thinks being a moron is somehow linked to if you can stand up for yourself IRL. I detain and arrest people for a living. I dont think im too worried about what Imabigbadass on the internet is gonna do to me.

[azeth]

^^

*thumbs down* a small leopard looking for a mother.

[Erasong]

3 rounds at 2 minutes per round (most of you slobs wouldn't last a single round at 2 minutes anyways)

This is probably true. Its harder then it looks. We did Pugil sticks in basic and I was winded long before I thought id be.

[Harrison]

Going at the heavy bag for X minutes is still probably the hardest workout I've personally found besides sprint-swimming laps.

People always underestimate cardio and its impact on fighting. Strength is meaningless if you're burned out after 45 seconds and then he finishes you off while you're barely able to hold your hands up.

[Erasong]

quarter mile sprints ( if u can call that a sprint. Its like like 3/4's and then full out) left me dying... but i did them anyway <3

[azeth]

Going at the heavy bag for X minutes is still probably the hardest workout I've personally found besides sprint-swimming laps..

Harri I agree with ya, even as a past/present/always p90x'r, heavy bag is excellent! I miss mine, we redid our basement and so went my rafter that the bag was strung up on :(

[Erasong]

I need to start working on cardio again. Ive gotten lazy in the last year or so. Never looked into heavy bags and such tho. bet its expensive.. and i DID mention i was black right? :D

[Harrison]

I ride to a track at a nearby city as hard as I can.

I do a few laps and sprint the turns, jog the straights.

[Rasterburn]

see? rage more about how we should meet up irl tough guy.

Why should I bother..? You've already shown you ass to the entire board. Just as I expected you would.

You lose at life, gimp. :cool:

[Harrison]

*yawn* fat jokes, when are you going to move up to virgin, and basement-dwelling, etc.? Your ad hominem attacks need more cliche internet insults. You're slacking.

I wouldn't ref, either. I'd definitely be in the competition.

[Hasbinbad]

Will there be metal music playing in the background?
..only when Finawin is introduced as the "medic" for the event.

[Harrison]

You're going to keep trying to play that fabrication game after you said you hope everyone in the armed forces is killed?

You're going to pretend to hold some sort of level of respect for them while simultaneously wishing they all die? Pick a side, vagina. You can't play both.

[Hasbinbad]

You're going to keep trying to play that fabrication game after you said you hope everyone in the armed forces is killed?

You're going to pretend to hold some sort of level of respect for them while simultaneously wishing they all die? Pick a side, vagina. You can't play both.
I do what I want. I do what I want.

..just because I don't particularly like a class of people doesn't mean I cannot simultaneously (I'll wait while you look it up ... it roughly means "at the same time") enjoy the joke that you pretended to be part of an elite group and then got called out for lying about it.

[Taxi]

The role of soldiers is to take bullets that citizens don't want to take.

Of course they dont, why would anyone wanna take a bullet for Halliburton's shareholders? Unless youre stupid, looking for an opportunity to kill brown people or blinded by patriotic drivel?

[Harrison]

How snug is that tinfoil hat, and do you need a bib for the shit you're fed or do you gulp it down whole?

[Hasbinbad]

How snug is that tinfoil hat, and do you need a bib for the shit you're fed or do you gulp it down whole?
Finalose, quit talking to yourself. It makes you look crazier than you are.

[Hasbinbad]

I ain't no senator's son
It ain't Fourthmeal! It ain't Fourthmeal! He ain't no fortunate one, no!

[Erasong]

Why should I bother..? You've already shown you ass to the entire board. Just as I expected you would.

You lose at life, gimp. :cool:

You really believe that even after being laughed at for showing "how tough you are" on the internet? you are delusional. Douche.

[Harrison]

I will believe someone who randomly spewed some half-assed bullshit on these forums is a combat medic as much as I will think Hasbinbad is anything more than a pussy spoiled brat who has never worked a day in his life.

It isn't going to happen.

[Hasbinbad]

Hey Finawin:

http://www.gapingvoid.com/11444661477.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

Hey Finawin:

http://www.gapingvoid.com/11444661477.jpg
failsize.

DAMN YOU, NO EDIT BUTTON!

[Harrison]

You guys care enough to bring up the fabricated lies over, and over, and over lol

It's a pretty solid indicator that you're floundering in your attempt to invalidate my points via anything other than ad hominem, incessantly.

[Taxi]

You guys care enough to bring up the fabricated lies over, and over, and over lol

It's a pretty solid indicator that you're floundering in your attempt to invalidate my points via anything other than ad hominem, incessantly.

Why dont you touch my turds and tell me if its solid since you got such good indicators and stuff