Raid Suspension: The Mystical Order [Archive] - Page 2

Lazie

07-30-2014, 12:01 AM

How about linking the fraps that proves how corrupt sirken and company are by suspending you guys unjustly?

I don't think they are corrupt honestly. They just took one side of the story without actually reviewing the fraps that was given to them. I think at this point they just don't want to be seen as wrong publicly. I mean I talked to Hokushin and he admitted that the Hoshkar aggro was IB's that trained the dragons to Zone in himself. That I can show ya since it wasn't part of this.

[Mon Jul 28 15:05:09 2014] Hokushin -> Lazie: the hoshkar was IBs from the looks of it, which we could have easily derailed ourselves.

Now the original petition was that TMO trained Hoshkar and Druushk to zone in. Which was never true. We had no aggro at all on the 2 dragons when they got there. It was all aggro off Hokushin's Xygoz pull.

In the fraps which I am sure will get out eventually Hokushin had no idea that his bad call got aggro on 4 people in his raid. He told his entire raid (including the people with aggro on the train) to invis up and run past the dragons. Basically he told them to let them train on down to zone in and do their damage because he had no clue the aggro was on IB at the time based on his bad calls as the initial puller of Xygoz. The fraps proves Hokushin was never going to attempt to drag Hoshkar away from zone in. That he was going to move his raid past a train that was aggroed on people in his raid.

Ella`Ella

07-30-2014, 12:08 AM

I'll appease you all tomorrow with a very detailed outline of the situation, the petition and the course of events leading up until now. I'll post it in Raid Discussion.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 01:33 AM

https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0336/69/1406418122467.gif

Agreed. If you saw how hilariously bad our VP loot from those 4 dragons were you'd laugh too. Onoes, my ykeshan broad axes ~

pufen

07-30-2014, 01:36 AM

http://i.imgur.com/GaDWZuH.gif

Lazie

07-30-2014, 02:10 AM

Amazing how the fraps just became private. Good thing we downloaded it.

Alarti0001

07-30-2014, 02:13 AM

Amazing how the fraps just became private. Good thing we downloaded it.

I got it hosted fine :)

Lazie

07-30-2014, 02:18 AM

I got it hosted fine :)

IB must not want GM's taking a closer look at that fraps. I wonder why. Hmmm.

Skywarp

07-30-2014, 03:01 AM

http://cdn.snowboardermag.com/files/2010/08/Blatt_SpinCycle-9615-588x446.jpg

Prismaticshop

07-30-2014, 06:33 AM

I Think GMs resuspended TMO and deleted loot because IB got Butt-fucked hardcore on last repop :

Basically TMO destroyed VP and gore and fay...IB managed to get...VS?

GMs felt bad about it and don't want IB to be discouraged, so they re suspended TMO, deleted loot, and gave IB a free shot at VP so that they still get some mobs.

Jib

07-30-2014, 07:21 AM

holy shit shut the fuck up with your bitching and whining

please refer to this thread here : http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159614

arsenalpow

07-30-2014, 07:22 AM

Nah we got VS on that repop after IB wiped.

Brynnag

07-30-2014, 07:23 AM

holy shit shut the fuck up with your bitching and whining

please refer to this thread here : http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159614

oh the rustling

Godefroi

07-30-2014, 09:06 AM

Nah we got VS on that repop after IB wiped.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/09/medal.gif

chief

07-30-2014, 09:10 AM

Nah we got VS on that repop after IB wiped.

one vs after 4 years of kunark being out , congrats fgt

arsenalpow

07-30-2014, 09:27 AM

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/09/medal.gif
Yes
one vs after 4 years of kunark being out , congrats fgt
Thanks

Cecily

07-30-2014, 09:36 AM

Nah we got VS on that repop after IB wiped.

Congrats. Who were the lucky officers?

Juevento

07-30-2014, 10:08 AM

Hmm if I recall correctly, only 25% of the vs loot went to officers and that was just a pulsing green stone for a Druid so it doesn't really count as loot.

Furthermore, had we known we could have waited a week until you guys get suspended and have another one of you psychopaths go full retard by quitting the guild and selling us a Druid/ranger epic for 30% of its real value, we certainly would have gone down that route.

But hindsight is always 20/20.

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 10:17 AM

Hmm if I recall correctly
^^^Head scratching loot distribution system. Do yourselves a favor and start keeping track of things. I'm sure there have never been any mistakes in rewarding loot based off using only your memory... right? Do you guys do zero drugs or something?

Pringles

07-30-2014, 10:20 AM

https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0336/69/1406418122467.gif

Juevento

07-30-2014, 10:48 AM

My problem with dkp is that I don't want to play with people who have to be incentivized to show up to shit by being awarded points to be turned in for future loot.

I want to play with people who I genuinely like and respect and who reciprocate that feeling. If you are in BDA, you are part of the family. We'll support you with whatever you want to do. I don't want to be in a guild with people who's only goal in game is to get the best loot possible. That's not our style. I personally couldn't give two shits if I ever got another piece of loot. I love showing up and killing dragons with cool people and seeing them get the new shiny thing.

Hell, we had 30 people show up for a Stanos head farm a few weeks back and most were there for 6+ hours. We didn't need to be awarded dkp to do that. We do stuff like that because we are a very tight knit group and like hanging out together.

quido

07-30-2014, 10:58 AM

retards find strength in numbers

Locust

07-30-2014, 11:03 AM

^^^Head scratching loot distribution system. Do yourselves a favor and start keeping track of things. I'm sure there have never been any mistakes in rewarding loot based off using only your memory... right? Do you guys do zero drugs or something?

hey look! it's the anonymous butthurt newbie who allegedly got his mid 20s exp camp stolen by someone in BDA. you're obsessed bro, and ignorant. learn to let go.

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 11:21 AM

I don't want to be in a guild with people who's only goal in game is to get the best loot possible.
It's interesting because it always seems to come down to the belief that people who are after DKP or attendance tracking have the singular goal of getting all the best loot. When I designed a very basic system in WoW (just tallied hours people spent) it was for a couple reasons, but mostly just to have solid information somewhere. So people with high attendance would know that I, and everyone else in the guild above or below knew it. 100%'ers could look at that 100% and epeen the bottom of their desks. Trials can see themselves becoming raiders. Best of all, when Santa comes around with his loot sleigh the people deciding who gets what have all this info at their fingertips.

Seriously. It's like you guys are against having transparency and extra info...

hey look! it's the anonymous butthurt newbie who allegedly got his mid 20s exp camp stolen by someone in BDA. you're obsessed bro, and ignorant. learn to let go.
Actually he played the 'better man' and logged after waiting about half an hour for a GM to answer his petition. You do realize I only relayed that story at the end of my post because I recognize the extreme reaction to something that didn't and doesn't matter and I find it humorous? This is rants and flames, idiot. You'll pay forever for that one mistake.

PS, if you chodes could do ANY work whatsoever you could find out who I am pretty easily based off the story I told. Like I am really trying that hard to remain anon. If you aren't in a guild with 'dial' in the name I can honestly say I have never sent you a tell or went out of my way to talk to you. If you are in a guild with 'dial' in the name, you're welcome for your 50p flat rate donations and me always taking as little of your time as possible.

Rhambuk

07-30-2014, 11:40 AM

If you are in a guild with 'dial' in the name, you're welcome for your 50p flat rate donations and me always taking as little of your time as possible.

Thanks sir

Samoht

07-30-2014, 11:52 AM

Actually he played the 'better man' and logged after waiting about half an hour for a GM to answer his petition.

at least he didn't go the TMO route and flagrantly train your ass with a deguilded alt

Locust

07-30-2014, 11:54 AM

It's interesting because it always seems to come down to the belief that people who are after DKP or attendance tracking have the singular goal of getting all the best loot. When I designed a very basic system in WoW (just tallied hours people spent) it was for a couple reasons, but mostly just to have solid information somewhere. So people with high attendance would know that I, and everyone else in the guild above or below knew it. 100%'ers could look at that 100% and epeen the bottom of their desks. Trials can see themselves becoming raiders. Best of all, when Santa comes around with his loot sleigh the people deciding who gets what have all this info at their fingertips.

Seriously. It's like you guys are against having transparency and extra info...

Actually he played the 'better man' and logged after waiting about half an hour for a GM to answer his petition. You do realize I only relayed that story at the end of my post because I recognize the extreme reaction to something that didn't and doesn't matter and I find it humorous? This is rants and flames, idiot. You'll pay forever for that one mistake.

PS, if you chodes could do ANY work whatsoever you could find out who I am pretty easily based off the story I told. Like I am really trying that hard to remain anon. If you aren't in a guild with 'dial' in the name I can honestly say I have never sent you a tell or went out of my way to talk to you. If you are in a guild with 'dial' in the name, you're welcome for your 50p flat rate donations and me always taking as little of your time as possible.

imagine a world where some people like to enjoy things differently than you. imagine a world where an organization exists in contrast to your beliefs. this world is p99. this organization is BDA. we have been here a long time. we don't use dkp. get over it.

ps. no one cares about your wow server

Bazia

07-30-2014, 11:58 AM

no dkp guilds tend to take advantage of higher playtime individuals whether it's intentional or not

if their cool with getting screwed over then more power to them but there is no good reason to not track raid attendance and use that as a factor when deciding loot

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 12:01 PM

The only reason I bring up the WoW server is to demonstrate a minimal system. Is that DKP? No. It's keeping a simple tally of hours and posting it in a public place. I wouldn't suggest you start using DKP until you actually start killing dragons.

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 12:02 PM

there is no good reason to not track raid attendance and use that as a factor when deciding loot
Hi. I like you.

Samoht

07-30-2014, 12:11 PM

ITT: people who think DKP is the only way to track raid attendance and guild contribution blindly bash a guild's system that they've never used and clearly know nothing about

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 12:16 PM

(just tallied hours people spent)
people who think DKP is the only way to track raid attendance and guild contribution
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhe9y1RlEl0MDfA_rGIElYOPfB3_HIE NxSC9S-eeKXR7so9_gItyNdjw

Clark

07-30-2014, 12:18 PM

one vs after 4 years of kunark being out , congrats fgt

LOL

Clark

07-30-2014, 12:19 PM

Samoht

07-30-2014, 12:19 PM

guys, i'm going to create a DKP system and use some other acronym or name for it. it's still going to boil down to being a DKP system, but don't you ever call it by that! it has it's own name!

MMDAKP is now live!

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 12:26 PM

How does writing something down become a DKP system...? Mind boggling.

Samoht

07-30-2014, 12:29 PM

and yet you assume to know that BDA doesn't write anything down and that you're somehow superior to them because of your assumption that they don't

dumbassery

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 12:32 PM

I'd probably get some sort of raid attendance/dkp infrastructure up before I started offering to do staff work...
I heard there were other ways of doing loot, could be wrong though.
So I'm supposed to believe otherwise... why?

arsenalpow

07-30-2014, 12:34 PM

So I'm supposed to believe otherwise... why?

We keep a log of major loot handed out and we use that to help assist loot council decisions. We've used loot council for years and we're happy with it.

Locust

07-30-2014, 12:35 PM

I wouldn't suggest you start using DKP until you actually start killing dragons.

ffa sev. gauntlets of fiery might. awarded to an iksar shadowknight. no idea how many hours he's put in to raiding. it was disgusting and beautiful at the same time. cry about it. it's just loot.

don't need DKP if you DGAF (don't give a fuck, BDA's new official loot system)

Samoht

07-30-2014, 12:39 PM

so once again you're advocating DKP or nothing. you quote where chest says he doesn't use it, but he doesn't say what he does use. you bridge the gap to assume he uses nothing by yourself.

Do yourselves a favor and start keeping track of things. I'm sure there have never been any mistakes in rewarding loot based off using only your memory... right?

still, i'm not sure what any of this has to do with the TMO raid suspension. you just came here to bash the guild that TMO opposes. you don't seem knowledgeable enough to successfully accomplish your goal, though. it looks like you just throw a lot of blind assumptions to the wall to see what sticks.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 12:43 PM

BDA system is quite a bit like the TMO system, just with a little less stat tracking, I believe. It works out well for them. How did this damn thread get so off-topic. Pretty excited to see what Sirken has to say about this. My guess is he didn't like derubael stepping on his nuts and having conflicting GM reports and he wants GM decisions to be final, but we'll just have to tune in and see.

Locust

07-30-2014, 12:48 PM

still, i'm not sure what any of this has to do with the TMO raid suspension. you just came here to bash the guild that TMO opposes. you don't seem knowledgeable enough to successfully accomplish your goal, though. it looks like you just throw a lot of blind assumptions to the wall to see what sticks.

probs why he won't sign his posts. it's embarrassing

ManosMan

07-30-2014, 12:52 PM

We keep a log of major loot handed out and we use that to help assist loot council decisions. We've used loot council for years and we're happy with it.
..... so no attendance then...
ffa sev. gauntlets of fiery might. awarded to an iksar shadowknight. no idea how many hours he's put in to raiding. it was disgusting and beautiful at the same time. cry about it. it's just loot.

don't need DKP if you DGAF (don't give a fuck, BDA's new official loot system)
... what the hell are you even talking about?
so once again you're advocating DKP or nothing. you quote where chest says he doesn't use it, but he doesn't say what he does use. you bridge the gap to assume he uses nothing by yourself.
No, I 'bridged the gap' to assume that he wasn't keeping track of raid attendance...
still, i'm not sure what any of this has to do with the TMO raid suspension. you just came here to bash the guild that TMO opposes.
I must leap to the defense of a Class C guild, in hopes they will let me suckle from their great teat in my future endeavors.
you don't seem knowledgeable enough to successfully accomplish your goal, though. it looks like you just throw a lot of blind assumptions to the wall to see what sticks.
... but I was right...

probs why he won't sign his posts. it's embarrassing
Yea I'm totally holding out to come be friends with you in game. I'd really rather have none of you exist until I hit 60. Except those Dial-a-Porters.... those guys are cool.

Locust

07-30-2014, 01:08 PM

... what the hell are you even talking about?

we've been getting along fine with our current loot system for years

Yea I'm totally holding out to come be friends with you in game. I'd really rather have none of you exist until I hit 60.

so why are you so concerned with how BDA manages loot? why don't you sign your posts? if you're not embarrassed, and you're not holding out to be my friend, then what?

Daldolma

07-30-2014, 01:10 PM

shut the fuck up

Detoxx

07-30-2014, 01:37 PM

[QUOTE=Locust;1556378]we've been getting along fine with our current loot system for years

Because only for the last 6 months have you actually started getting loot.

Rais

07-30-2014, 02:36 PM

pufen

07-30-2014, 02:47 PM

Will you fuckheads bickering about BDA loot system shut the fuck up? No one gives two shits how BDA handles their 1 loot drop a month.

Troubled

07-30-2014, 03:08 PM

Will you fuckheads bickering about BDA loot system shut the fuck up? No one gives two shits how BDA handles their 1 loot drop a month.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 03:12 PM

I saw this fraps. It's only in 320p but most info can be gathered by it.

I think if Druushk wasn't with Hosh at zone in killing IB/TMO there wouldn't have been any suspension. But with TMO having agro on Druu from the start/during IB's engagement to running to zone in, I think that is why Sirken/Deru made that call.

I'm not sure if it is stored, but if there is pre encounter lists of agro that would clear things up. Otherwise some dude Butchsomething (no idea of full spelling since video is blurry) had FTE on Hosh and was killed. Unknown who had agro on Hosh after that since FTE list already had more than one person on it, since it didn't shoot off again after the death.

Hosh and Druushk both come to zone in and kill people. If it wasn't for Druushk being out of his room, pulled by TMO pullers only Hosh would have been there. Then it's too big of a question mark as to who had agro on Hosh since he roams around, and a ruling wouldn't be able to be made.

So tl/dr
Druushk was pulled by tmo, ended up at zone in and killing people.
No idea on Hosh agro, if it was only him imo nothing would have been done.
Druushk could only gain agro on IB because TMO pullers dropped agro next to IB/Cross paths with possible IB agro'ed Hoshkar.

Save the you hate tmo responses. I would just as much see IB death loop in vp as anyone else. I'd link the fraps, but since it was pm'ed to me it isn't mine to give.

Wrong. Rewatch the fraps and I will provide you the relevant times to look at.

Fingers secondaries Hokushin with a bard song hitting him at 1:17 in the video. Notice the bard song graphic on the rogue at this time instantly giving Catac aggro on the dragon too.

At 2:17 Fingers gets charmed and starts Melleeing the next guy on the hate list Catac. this is confirmed in the text of the OW box on Bandito's screen.

At 2:18 Xygoz mellees Catac before anyone else. Also confirming Catac was aggroed on him via his songs.

At 2:27 Bandito Heals Catac's Damage that he took off Xygoz and Fingers which puts him on the hate list of both Dragons and turns Hoshkar around and makes him start heading towards zone.

At 3:33 the Dragons get in charm range of Catac and AE while charming him at the same time confirming he was the 2nd guy on their hate list. This double AE kills Sussy who is standing behind Bandito.

AT 3:36 in the POW box Catac mellees Bandito confirming he is the final person on the Dragon's hate list.

AT 3:38 Hoshkar gets to Bandito and mellee's him to death ending the line of his hate list. This is confirmed when a brand new FTE message goes off for both dragons.

What the fraps shows is IB were the only people at zone in with Aggro on the train. TMO had to abandon their Druushk pull because IB has no clue how to keep dragons away from zone in on their pulls during repops. Every time they try to pull a dragon on a repop from balcony with Hoshkar or Xygoz up they train the zone in with those dragons. It's something we have to deal with all the time with them. It cost us that Druushk pull as they were training Hoshkar to zone in and had no clue the aggro was on them. Hokushin in the fraps is screaming at his guild to invis up and run past the 2 dragons because he has no clue he fucked up and trained it all to zone in by his call.

Shinko

07-30-2014, 03:14 PM

Lazie has passed the p99 bar exam

Lazie

07-30-2014, 03:14 PM

Hoshkar or Silverwing up I meant.

pufen

07-30-2014, 03:17 PM

Lazie has passed the p99 bar exam

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 03:20 PM

Fraps Rainman or an obsession with the truth?

Ella`Ella

07-30-2014, 03:21 PM

I saw this fraps. It's only in 320p but most info can be gathered by it.

I think if Druushk wasn't with Hosh at zone in killing IB/TMO there wouldn't have been any suspension. But with TMO having agro on Druu from the start/during IB's engagement to running to zone in, I think that is why Sirken/Deru made that call.

I'm not sure if it is stored, but if there is pre encounter lists of agro that would clear things up. Otherwise some dude Butchsomething (no idea of full spelling since video is blurry) had FTE on Hosh and was killed. Unknown who had agro on Hosh after that since FTE list already had more than one person on it, since it didn't shoot off again after the death.

Hosh and Druushk both come to zone in and kill people. If it wasn't for Druushk being out of his room, pulled by TMO pullers only Hosh would have been there. Then it's too big of a question mark as to who had agro on Hosh since he roams around, and a ruling wouldn't be able to be made.

So tl/dr
Druushk was pulled by tmo, ended up at zone in and killing people.
No idea on Hosh agro, if it was only him imo nothing would have been done.
Druushk could only gain agro on IB because TMO pullers dropped agro next to IB/Cross paths with possible IB agro'ed Hoshkar.

Save the you hate tmo responses. I would just as much see IB death loop in vp as anyone else. I'd link the fraps, but since it was pm'ed to me it isn't mine to give.

Is that the story you were told? Because the fraps doesn't show any of that. Even if you have logs, there is no way to know who was on the aggro lists simply from FTE shouts over a period of time and with new people getting aggro and carrying aggro. It's impossible to piece the logs together in context.

Also, IB started their prosecution claiming that druushk was the interference. However, after we disproved that as a possibility, the plaintiff then claimed hoshkar as the target in question.

Here's your mystery fraps and the breakdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovhrcPctzks

Hokushin pulls xygoz down the zone, passed Hoshkar who is being trained up by Butchh. Hoshkar has social agro on Hokushin due to Xygoz walking through him..
1:15 Hoku is bracered by rogue (fingerz)
1:20 bard (Catac) song playing on rogue
2:17 Xygoz enters camp and melee attacks catac (proof of agro transfer)
2:27 Bandito (frapser) heals Catac with CE. (proof of agro transfer)

As of right now, Hokushin, Fingerz, Catac, and Bandito all have agro on both Xygoz and Hoshkar. TMO dropped the Druushk pull at some point. Hoshkar will walk through Druushk, and social him aswell. This likely happened while either Shinko or Kingore had agro on Druushk, before they FD'd. Therefore there was no new FTE message for druushk, but he is still social agro'd on Hoshkar's target.

3:08 Xygoz dies and Hokushin probably FDs and /qs, so only Bandito and Catac have agro now.
3:31 hosh and druushk come to zone in and AOE as soon as they are in range of Bandito and Catac, which kills Sussy.
3:35 Catac is charmed (seen clearly), and Bandito is melee'd to death. Then a new FTE for both dragons goes off on Tobli. Proof that only Bandito and Catac were on the agro list and both dragons were coming directly for them.

It's a linear zone and a mob that paths. Regardless of what TMO may or may not have done, that dragon was going to path into them regardless - he roams.

JayN

07-30-2014, 03:22 PM

http://i.imgur.com/krKX4Yp.jpg

Dragonsblood1987

07-30-2014, 03:23 PM

Fraps Rainman or an obsession with the truth?

yes

Dragonsblood1987

07-30-2014, 03:25 PM

http://i.imgur.com/krKX4Yp.jpg

you mean there isnt enough there to handle?

Lazie

07-30-2014, 03:27 PM

Is that the story you were told? Because the fraps doesn't show any of that. Even if you have logs, there is no way to know who was on the aggro lists simply from FTE shouts over a period of time and with new people getting aggro and carrying aggro. It's impossible to piece the logs together in context.

Also, IB started their prosecution claiming that druushk was the interference. However, after we disproved that as a possibility, the plaintiff then claimed hoshkar as the target in question.

Here's your mystery fraps and the breakdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovhrcPctzks

Hokushin pulls xygoz down the zone, passed Hoshkar who is being trained up by Butchh. Hoshkar has social agro on Hokushin due to Xygoz walking through him..
1:15 Hoku is bracered by rogue (fingerz)
1:20 bard (Catac) song playing on rogue
2:17 Xygoz enters camp and melee attacks catac (proof of agro transfer)
2:27 Bandito (frapser) heals Catac with CE. (proof of agro transfer)

As of right now, Hokushin, Fingerz, Catac, and Bandito all have agro on both Xygoz and Hoshkar. TMO dropped the Druushk pull at some point. Hoshkar will walk through Druushk, and social him aswell. This likely happened while either Shinko or Kingore had agro on Druushk, before they FD'd. Therefore there was no new FTE message for druushk, but he is still social agro'd on Hoshkar's target.

3:08 Xygoz dies and Hokushin probably FDs and /qs, so only Bandito and Catac have agro now.
3:31 hosh and druushk come to zone in and AOE as soon as they are in range of Bandito and Catac, which kills Sussy.
3:35 Catac is charmed (seen clearly), and Bandito is melee'd to death. Then a new FTE for both dragons goes off on Tobli. Proof that only Bandito and Catac were on the agro list and both dragons were coming directly for them.

It's a linear zone and a mob that paths. Regardless of what TMO may or may not have done, that dragon was going to path into them regardless - he roams.

I mean the relevant thing is the raid calls Hokushin is making during this video as well. He clearly by his calls never knew he transferred all that aggro to Catac and Bandito via Fingerz. He told his raid to invis up and let that aggro go to zone in with no intent to ever try to keep it off people at zone in even though it was IB's aggro and not TMO's.

Ella`Ella

07-30-2014, 03:28 PM

Lazie has passed the p99 bar exam

Doesn't matter. A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge.

Ella`Ella

07-30-2014, 03:29 PM

If the fraps don't fit; you must acquit.

Oleris

07-30-2014, 03:30 PM

youtube video is private :(

Lazie

07-30-2014, 03:33 PM

If the fraps don't fit; you must acquit.

It's amazing that a suspension even occurred with that fraps. Sirken is always big on how people deal with their aggro. IB finished their engage on Xygoz. Xygoz died without any incident at all. Then IB who had aggro on them running to zone in just chooses to ignore it and let it train 2 raids at zone in. I mean it's pretty blatant by Hokushin's raid call of "Invis up and run past the dragons". He was basically telling his raid to let the dragons do their damage and get out of the way. He obviously made this call not understanding how he transferred the aggro only 3 people in his raid. It was an obvious mistake on his part. Yet TMO gets a suspension.

Ella`Ella

07-30-2014, 03:34 PM

youtube video is private :(

Good thing we fraps'd their fraps. Lazie or Alarti, if you gents wanna post that gem. Funny how the fraps was public until a few hours ago.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 03:37 PM

Good thing we fraps'd their fraps. Lazie or Alarti, if you gents wanna post that gem. Funny how the fraps was public until a few hours ago.

It went private last night. After we mentioned in RNF the raid calls by Hokushin in the video making it obvious that he never had intent to train away their aggro.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 03:38 PM

Alarti and Hitpoint were the ones who downloaded it. Up to them to post it. Or Ambrotos can since he saw it.

Ella`Ella

07-30-2014, 03:38 PM

It went private last night. After we mentioned in RNF the raid calls by Hokushin in the video making it obvious that he never had intent to train away their aggro.

We have it saved somewhere. Hitpoint or Alarti has it.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 03:38 PM

It's amazing that a suspension even occurred with that fraps. Sirken is always big on how people deal with their aggro. IB finished their engage on Xygoz. Xygoz died without any incident at all. Then IB who had aggro on them running to zone in just chooses to ignore it and let it train 2 raids at zone in. I mean it's pretty blatant by Hokushin's raid call of "Invis up and run past the dragons". He was basically telling his raid to let the dragons do their damage and get out of the way. He obviously made this call not understanding how he transferred the aggro only 3 people in his raid. It was an obvious mistake on his part. Yet TMO gets a suspension.

Not even this, though. You guys constantly have kid gloves on and IB is constantly doing stupid shit. Especially tortue, but honestly, what did you expect picking up that guy. So many times IB fucks up, breaks rules, and we still get the mob so we don't petition. I hope those days are at an end after all of this.

Alarti0001

07-30-2014, 03:39 PM

Lazie

07-30-2014, 03:57 PM

Not even this, though. You guys constantly have kid gloves on and IB is constantly doing stupid shit. Especially tortue, but honestly, what did you expect picking up that guy. So many times IB fucks up, breaks rules, and we still get the mob so we don't petition. I hope those days are at an end after all of this.

It is getting annoying. Just yesterday on Druushk we make it to his door clean and get FTE. Caleros brings a train and dies to it killing us at the door. It's becoming a common occurrence by IB to train everything to the doors of these dragons and then they drop the aggro there when they don't get FTE instead of controlling their aggro. You don't see us petitioning and complaining though. You also don't see us dropping trains on them at the doors when they get FTE (Maybe because their FTE messages are so rare at the doors).

But you are right. We play it safe to avoid trains and they just barrel in like bulls in a china shop and kill 5 or 6 people. We for the most part still get the kills so we let it slide. It really wasn't a problem until this suspension of them not understanding aggro and training zone in with dragons got us suspended because they don't understand the mechanics of what they did.

Ella`Ella

07-30-2014, 04:10 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_H-Ab6h98k

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 04:11 PM

It is getting annoying. Just yesterday on Druushk we make it to his door clean and get FTE. Caleros brings a train and dies to it killing us at the door. It's becoming a common occurrence by IB to train everything to the doors of these dragons and then they drop the aggro there when they don't get FTE instead of controlling their aggro. You don't see us petitioning and complaining though. You also don't see us dropping trains on them at the doors when they get FTE (Maybe because their FTE messages are so rare at the doors).

But you are right. We play it safe to avoid trains and they just barrel in like bulls in a china shop and kill 5 or 6 people. We for the most part still get the kills so we let it slide. It really wasn't a problem until this suspension of them not understanding aggro and training zone in with dragons got us suspended because they don't understand the mechanics of what they did.

It's more than that though. It's pulling inny to zone literally one week after the Sirken broadcast, it's the inevitable Vox train every, single, time. Shit is getting tedious.

khanable

07-30-2014, 04:17 PM

why does that fraps look like it was recorded directly to VHS

Rais

07-30-2014, 04:18 PM

I really hate these long ass posts trying to prove or disprove eachother. It isn't a school day so it's a good time filler.

At 2:27 Bandito Heals Catac's Damage that he took off Xygoz and Fingers which puts him on the hate list of both Dragons and turns Hoshkar around and makes him start heading towards zone.
Both dragons= Hosh and Xygoz? Or Hosh and Druu. If it is druu the following would apply.

Druu agros Klingore with FTE shout (2:41) So Bandito can't be agro on Druu at 2:27 like you claim. This is after Bandito heals Catac. So Druu wasn't agro on anyone but TMO. How can Bandito gain agro on Druu if a FTE was fired off after Bandito healed? If Bandito was on the agro list, when Kledkor(sp?) dropped their agro they would have gained FTE. Druu had an empty agro list after Kledkor droped agro, and Klingore picked it up.

At 3:33 the Dragons get in charm range of Catac and AE while charming him at the same time confirming he was the 2nd guy on their hate list. This double AE kills Sussy who is standing behind Bandito.
Nothing on the fraps I was given shows this. Dragons come to zone in, kills sussy and then proceeds to zone in. Will provide screen capture.

AT 3:36 in the POW box Catac mellees Bandito confirming he is the final person on the Dragon's hate list.
AT 3:38 Hoshkar gets to Bandito and mellee's him to death ending the line of his hate list. This is confirmed when a brand new FTE message goes off for both dragons.
I do agree with this in part. It also means other people higher on the list could have already camped out or died from a dot outside of fraps range and it just happened to be Bandito to be on top of the list.Was he the last person due to other people IB/TMO being on the list above him? That would mean TMO could have had agro on Hosh.

What the fraps shows is IB were the only people at zone in with Aggro on the train.
Half true. There were people from TMO at zone in. TMO was tagging Druu and had clean FTE messages. TMO was pulling a dragon to zone in. So whoever was at zone in doesn't really matter and makes this point void or could also prove a tmo member had secondary agro. A secondary member after Klingore's fte could have ran to zone in with agro on Druu, and Hosh was just coming to assist him with IB still on the list with Hosh.

TMO had to abandon their Druushk pull because IB has no clue how to keep dragons away from zone in on their pulls during repops.

TMO may have abandoned their pull, but they are still responsible for the mobs they did pull in the first place. This is backed up from favorable rulings in TMO's favor and the precedent is set and the reason why I think they ruled the way they did. Where and when you gain/lose agro on Druu from all your FTE messages, is key here. TMO pulled him out of his room, he is now agro onto IB at zone in. Klingore's FTE shout while IB is engaged shows this.

I think it's hazy, but if Druu wasn't anywhere near then no ruling would have happened. Even if you say they had agro on Hosh, all they have to say is they were going to attempt him right after Xygoz at zone in, and was trained by Druu who had a clear agro list, but then was attained by Klingore and was trained/positioned the dragon in a way to gain assist agro on Hosh onto IB. Can it be proven? No, but the previous rulings would apply where you are responsible for any mobs you pull.

Is that the story you were told? Because the fraps doesn't show any of that. Even if you have logs, there is no way to know who was on the aggro lists simply from FTE shouts over a period of time and with new people getting aggro and carrying aggro. It's impossible to piece the logs together in context.

The fraps doesn't show anything I said? I think you are making a blanket statement when in fact everything I said is in the fraps. Can I see everything in the fraps? No and I stated the bad reso it was in.

I haven't been told anything asides reading from the many posts here in RnF that are factual. I was given a fraps where it's hard to even read peoples names.

Hokushin pulls xygoz down the zone, passed Hoshkar who is being trained up by Butchh. Hoshkar has social agro on Hokushin due to Xygoz walking through him..

No idea who Butchh is. Is he IB or TMO? Hosh agro list is key, but I just don't see how fraps can prove or disprove anything really. It's just the fact Druu is at zone in, and IB didn't pull him. Thus it falls on past rulings about controlling your pulls.

I will state, if Druushk wasn't with Hosh coming to zone in I don't think Deru and Sirken would have ruled the way they did. It's 100% clear Druu was pulled by TMO all the way down near the bridge. As for agro on Hosh, it isn't 100% clear asides from Bandito being agro on Hosh, and picked up agro on Druu after Klingore had FTE on Druu. So you have Bandito on the list on Hosh, and on the list for Druu at some point between Klingore and zone in.

I don't think making a call one way or another is really clear on this. I would just blame both guilds and call it a wash. Yet the staff have to go with past precedent and that would be that TMO didn't control their pull and allowed it to knowingly or unknowingly assist Hosh.

All in all a fucking headache for all sides and the staff.

JayN

07-30-2014, 04:19 PM

wipe it clean 2014, just stop at kunark and never nerf drops

Rais

07-30-2014, 04:19 PM

This was the part about the charm at the end. How the fuck anyone can see shit is beyond me.

Ele

07-30-2014, 04:21 PM

All in all a fucking headache for all sides and the staff.

Wipe it clean. #Blue2

Lazie

07-30-2014, 04:28 PM

This was the part about the charm at the end. How the fuck anyone can see shit is beyond me.

Watch the POW box Ambrotos. After the dragons AE and charm Catac Mellee's bandito after he gets charmed.

Rais

07-30-2014, 04:28 PM

Wipe it clean. #Blue2

I think at some point a new blue server should open. The entire new server, everyone at 0 is one of the biggest parts of eq. With all coding to patch/change items, mobs etc automatically would simply make a real classic server. Even code in random times when the server will crash, and respawns happen.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 04:29 PM

IB grabs Xygoz and pulls the longest pull in all of VP, through the whole fucking zone. They don't bother to train up, and instead rely on TMO to train up for them. It works long enough for them to kill Xygoz. Afterwards they stand there and claim ignorance while all the shit they pulled Xygoz through comes running down to zone in. It's all TMO's fault they say... because... TMO is the guild responsible for keeping IBs pull clean?

Xygoz runs through the whole fucking zone. If you pull Xygoz without a trainup on Hosh+Trash then you might as well be pulling King to zone in of Seb and bitching at the North Gate group when your pull has adds.

Let me ask you this. If the IB retards stood there at zone in for 5 minutes while TMO pullers worked to keep all the mobs off them at zone in, and IB had no intention of logging out (which they didn't), exactly how long is TMO responsible for keeping IB from training the zone in?

I don't think staff is corrupt honestly. I just think they don't understand the mechanics involved and make retarded decisions as a result. The important thing though is do they have the integrity to remedy the situation after they screw it up?

Lazie

07-30-2014, 04:29 PM

Also Ambrotos watch after Bandito dies. Sussy's corpse is behind Bandito which means he died to the AE's as he was the furthest guy away from the dragons.

Rais

07-30-2014, 04:31 PM

Watch the POW box Ambrotos. After the dragons AE and charm Catac Mellee's bandito after he gets charmed.

I can see Catac name meleeing him after he finishes zoning. At 3:33 I cant see anything really. I see two red lines of something but I couldn't for the life of me tell you what it is. Between Xygoz death and Sussy dieing like a bitch right?

Oleris

07-30-2014, 04:46 PM

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-30001-ENHANCE-gif-Super-Troopers-Img-pSWO.gif

Lazie

07-30-2014, 04:48 PM

I can see Catac name meleeing him after he finishes zoning. At 3:33 I cant see anything really. I see two red lines of something but I couldn't for the life of me tell you what it is. Between Xygoz death and Sussy dieing like a bitch right?

Uhm Catac also has a LD tag by his name and yes the red text is in the POW box of Catac melleeing Bandito after he gets charmed. I agree the quality of the video is shitty. The original video was a bit clearer which is now private.

Alarti0001

07-30-2014, 04:50 PM

Its clear that IB pull through TMO's pull.. basic social vp mechanics..

Lazie

07-30-2014, 05:10 PM

I can also explain the clean FTE messages on Druushk. Our original puller was Dolic and he ate a charm after the dragon was past Hoshkar coming down. Then a couple of people died to the train with Druushk. You see the FTE messages firing off before it settles on Kingore. Who get's him solo with a sneak tag.

The story here isn't the FTE messages on Druushk the story is that both Dragons were together coming to zone in at the same amount of time past the last FTE message on Druushk. It shows that IB's Hoshkar train was right on top of our pull and they never had a plan to kill or derail that mob.

As for the defense they could have been planning to kill Hoshkar next... Really ? Immediately after Xygoz dies Hokushin makes the call for them to "Relog". Then someone in their vent tells them Druushk is there and then Hokushin calls that Hoshkar and Druushk is there. Hokushin has no clue that it is their train that he caused by having a person in a bard group get secondary and tells his raid to "Run by them". He was going to let their aggro just destroy people at zone in. Which is what happened in the video.

This just sets a precedent that if you get aggro on one dragon while another guild gets aggro on another dragon you are responsible for the aggro that the other guild builds on everything in the zone simply because they engaged their Dragon first. You can manipulate this indefinitely and run fraps to get guilds suspended.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 05:13 PM

Naturally. And when you're killing CT don't you know you have to bring your kite to the southwest corner right before they engage? It's the gentlemanly thing to do.

pufen

07-30-2014, 05:16 PM

Every time you post Heallun, I instantly get the urge to go buy a TV, hook up my SNES, and pop Chrono Trigger in.

Calabee

07-30-2014, 05:23 PM

they sell chrono trigger for androids on google play, gogogo

Freakish

07-30-2014, 05:23 PM

Regardless if GMs made the correct call or not, it was called. Sit by, let it pass and move on. The only thing that bothers me is the severity of the discipline when previous infractions by our competition resulted in a tap on the wrist. I'm talking about dropping Nexona onto TMO at zone in and all they lost was a future Nexona while TMO loses a full round of VP mobs.

pufen

07-30-2014, 05:24 PM

I have le iphone =\

I'm sure there are roms of it available for PC. I should look into that.

http://i.imgur.com/vCVPF6J.gif

Calabee

07-30-2014, 05:32 PM

www.coolrom.com -- has up to ps2 roms / emu's

Calabee

07-30-2014, 05:33 PM

the fuck since when is that site in french... or WHY THE FUCK does everything auto translates to french when im using english settings, english OS, and english keyboard.

GOD it's annoying

quido

07-30-2014, 05:34 PM

sacrebleu!

Calabee

07-30-2014, 05:34 PM

triple post flurry attack

ya fucking auto detected some french shit... I RENOUNCE MY FRENCHNESS

pufen

07-30-2014, 05:44 PM

It's in English for me.

Thanks for the heads up on that site. I will def check into it. It would be fun to play some Chrono Trigger or FF9 on PC.

Have a baguette on me.

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/10/4/1/5/84919861599037634.jpg

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 05:56 PM

Every time you post Heallun, I instantly get the urge to go buy a TV, hook up my SNES, and pop Chrono Trigger in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yigc4z1gFA4

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 05:57 PM

Regardless if GMs made the correct call or not, it was called. Sit by, let it pass and move on.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

The courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

quido

07-30-2014, 05:59 PM

We lost this case because we didn't have a bunch of screenshots with the text copied and blown up and turned sideways and stuff.

Calabee

07-30-2014, 06:06 PM

wow a sub-link to frog's song was pretty fucking epic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEGniXc7Xtc

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 06:08 PM

I can see Catac name meleeing him after he finishes zoning. At 3:33 I cant see anything really. I see two red lines of something but I couldn't for the life of me tell you what it is. Between Xygoz death and Sussy dieing like a bitch right?

The original fraps was higher definition. This is a downloaded version thatg was re-uploaded after IB took theirs down. At 3:36 is when you could see Catac with LD over his head, clearly meleeing. You can't see the LD in this video, but you can see him meleeing if you look hard. It's seen briefly when the screen pans around.

Freakish

07-30-2014, 06:09 PM

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

The courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

See? You need to come to church on Sunday.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 06:18 PM

I'd also say that the only thing that is any real proof is the fraps and based on the fraps it came directly for Sussy. Sussy being the only person dying from the AoE would not make sense and you can see it wasn't only AoE in the video. The events that lead up to that, who knows. But claiming it was because IB failed to log out then backing it up with another claim doesn't prove your case too much. Yeah it's pretty shitty it took this long for anyone to review the information but if you are claiming that you guys were the ones to train up for IB with those dragons then its on you, bottom line. Who knows what could of happened inbetween but based on it was your pick up mobs, it went directly for sussy then cut over to Bandito, its your train. I don't care for either side but it doesn't help your case when you get the same 6 people here saying different things. No one camped their agro and it was their fault, pulled through your train up, transferring agro, who knows who or what could of touched the mob inbetween but the video doesn't show too much tbh.

That's not what the fraps shows at all. Sussy was killed before the dragons were in melee range of him. Both dragons aoe and kill him, because he he is a freshly rezed magician. That's why he died. If the definition was as high as the original video you'd see the emote for the AoEs, people's health bars dropping, and warriors going berzerk right at the same time as Sussy's death. Also you do see other people die. Look at the health bars in the group window.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 06:21 PM

Lazie

07-30-2014, 06:31 PM

Exactly what Hitpoint just said the string of aggro is obvious. They come for Catac first then AE and charm him. No new FTE message goes out after those AE's and that charm so there is still a person on their aggro table. Sussy dies to those AE's he was never out in zone and is a mage at zone in. He has absolutely zero aggro on anything. Catac and the Dragons turn to Bandito who they kill. This ends their line of aggro. How do we know this ends their line of aggro ? That nifty thing the GM's added to the server FTE shouts. New FTE shouts go out zone wide meaning their previous aggro table is clear and a new one is started.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 06:37 PM

I do see people die after Sussy but no one previous if you look at the chat. If he was freshly rezzed, that would make more sense. I do see Catac meleeing at the end of the video. I will say it doesn't really matter at this point, that video is shitty as hell and if those were your initial engages, they were your mobs since they came collectively. I agree, VP looks like a shit show for training mobs around and doing that kind of bullshit but I know Class C guilds have given up mobs for being feared into another guild and wiping a few of them in places like fear or based on because someone got agro of the fear train. The shit does happen all the time, that's why if you are racing for mobs and someone gets a mob first, keep the train on you, move it out of the way and get ready for your next pull, otherwise youll probably eat a suspension.

Yes, lots of TMO were being rezed at the time. Some of those corpses are ours.

It's unfortunate about the video quality. Like I said it's an IB fraps so they took it down immediately when it was turned against them. We had the foresight to download it before they happened, but it's lower quality than the original. The GMs saw the original one.

We will have to agree to disagree about the train part. We pulled Hosh as far in the opposite direction as we could before our trainer died. If they want to pull a mob through it, they should be responsible for the train, and have someone tailing it to make sure it doesn't return to them. Same as plane of fear. When a bard collects the zone, the other guilds bard finds them and takes the train off them before CT is engaged. It is an acceptable rule in fear, and it was acceptable in VP until just yesterday.

Anyway, a week off frop VP isn't the end of the world. What's more disturbing is how we were blindsided with it two months later. Before we were given a chance to defend ourselves, before we saw this fraps, and long after we had deleted any fraps of our own. And the GMs allowed it to happen calling the situation "not ideal" but not mitigating the punishment whatsoever.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 06:38 PM

A few typos. That* from* ^

Lazie

07-30-2014, 06:41 PM

In essence IB posted a fraps to GM's that proved the train to zone in was IB's. It proved the train was all aggro off Hokushin's pull. It shows the calls Hokushin made that got people in his raid aggro on the train. It shows Hokushin never had any intent of trying to derail his guilds train. It shows his guilds train killed members of both raids at zone in. That is the only things IB's fraps shows clearly. Yet based on this fraps TMO got suspended.

Glenzig

07-30-2014, 06:45 PM

Someone needs to take the higher ground in this situation. Continually posting 1,000 word counterarguments in RnF won't change anything. It just makes the haters more enraged. Eat the suspension with some dignity. Like Hitpoint said, it isn't the end of the world for TMO to miss out on a couple dragon spawns in VP. This is coming from someone who actually kinda likes most of the TMO I've dealt with. I even kind of like Tiggles RnF persona. A little class goes a long way.

Lopretni

07-30-2014, 06:49 PM

But then TMo would have competition and that'd be the worst thing in the universe ever, right? :^)

Rais

07-30-2014, 06:49 PM

If the dragons were coming for Sussy there would be new FTE messages after he died. The breakdown of the video was posted in two different forms a few pages back. It shows you how to view the fraps with time stamps, what to look for, and why it makes sense.

Unless he was on the list, and others were put on it when the dragons saw them. It's not 100% proof that bandito was the only one on the list. His entire group would be on the agro list from bard/healing his group. His entire group is still in the zone/trying to camp out. So why did a new FTE shout go off when bandito died? Shouldn't the five other people be on the agro list also? I know there has been issues with fte shout in the past so maybe this is part of it?

It was always ruled that you need to control your pulls no matter what. It was a ruling that benefited tmo over ib, and ib was suspended from all mobs because of it. Now the same thing has come in return. The first one was iffy, just like this one. Both have merits and downfalls.

IB grabs Xygoz and pulls the longest pull in all of VP, through the whole fucking zone. They don't bother to train up, and instead rely on TMO to train up for them. It works long enough for them to kill Xygoz. Afterwards they stand there and claim ignorance while all the shit they pulled Xygoz through comes running down to zone in. It's all TMO's fault they say... because... TMO is the guild responsible for keeping IBs pull clean?

From my inside infos Hitpoint admitted he had trained hosh up through Xygoz. Either he died or lost agro and this is what caused Hoku to gain assist agro from Hosh. In the end it was his train that caused the agro. I am sure if things weren't trained, IB would have never gotten the dragon to zone in.

So it sounds like someone messed up, and everything is being thrown in to confuse the entire situation. Either my inside staff infos are full of shit, or this is what went down in the meeting. Everything else is irreverent if Hitpoint came clean like that.

TMO so immersed

07-30-2014, 06:56 PM

Lazie's immersion is reaching critical levels

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 06:56 PM

Unless he was on the list, and others were put on it when the dragons saw them. It's not 100% proof that bandito was the only one on the list. His entire group would be on the agro list from bard/healing his group. His entire group is still in the zone/trying to camp out. So why did a new FTE shout go off when bandito died? Shouldn't the five other people be on the agro list also? I know there has been issues with fte shout in the past so maybe this is part of it?

That's not how agro transfer works. Bard song will gain agro for the bard, it will not transfer it to others. Same as any beneficial spell. If a cleric heals someone with agro, the cleric gains agro. If a cleric has agro and heals someone without agro, that person still will not have agro.

From my inside infos Hitpoint admitted he had trained hosh up through Xygoz. Either he died or lost agro and this is what caused Hoku to gain assist agro from Hosh. In the end it was his train that caused the agro. I am sure if things weren't trained, IB would have never gotten the dragon to zone in.

So it sounds like someone messed up, and everything is being thrown in to confuse the entire situation. Either my inside staff infos are full of shit, or this is what went down in the meeting. Everything else is irreverent if Hitpoint came clean like that.

Yes your inside info is full of shit or it wasn't communicated/understood properly. I never touched Hoshkar or any dragon involved with this pull. I was dead for the entire duration because I was on train up for our PD pull before this, you can see Shinko dragging my corpse at :55.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 06:57 PM

Unless he was on the list, and others were put on it when the dragons saw them. It's not 100% proof that bandito was the only one on the list. His entire group would be on the agro list from bard/healing his group. His entire group is still in the zone/trying to camp out. So why did a new FTE shout go off when bandito died? Shouldn't the five other people be on the agro list also? I know there has been issues with fte shout in the past so maybe this is part of it?

It was always ruled that you need to control your pulls no matter what. It was a ruling that benefited tmo over ib, and ib was suspended from all mobs because of it. Now the same thing has come in return. The first one was iffy, just like this one. Both have merits and downfalls.

From my inside infos Hitpoint admitted he had trained hosh up through Xygoz. Either he died or lost agro and this is what caused Hoku to gain assist agro from Hosh. In the end it was his train that caused the agro. I am sure if things weren't trained, IB would have never gotten the dragon to zone in.

So it sounds like someone messed up, and everything is being thrown in to confuse the entire situation. Either my inside staff infos are full of shit, or this is what went down in the meeting. Everything else is irreverent if Hitpoint came clean like that.

His entire group would not be on the list based on his songs.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 06:59 PM

That's not how agro transfer works. Bard song will gain agro for the bard, it will not transfer it to others. Same as any beneficial spell. If a cleric heals someone with agro, the cleric gains agro. If a cleric has agro and heals someone without agro, that person still will not have agro.

Yes your inside info is full of shit or it wasn't communicated/understood properly. I never touched Hoshkar or any dragon involved with this pull. I was dead for the entire duration because I was on train up for our PD pull before this, you can see Shinko dragging my corpse at :55.

Pretty sad a former GM doesn't understand how aggro works.

quido

07-30-2014, 07:00 PM

I explained to TMO that we need to petition raid disputes like red people post in RnF. Don't write paragraphs and explain what happened; you need to post a screenshot and scribble on it in MSPaint. A series of scribbled-upon screenshots will also work. Find the pertinent part of the image and select it using the rectangular select tool. Then copy and paste the selection and drag it to a new part of the image. Make sure to resize the copied selection to a different breadth and height. Repeat this process until the image is littered with "Hoshkar engages Hokushin!" of varying sizes. It is in your interest to rotate a few of them 90 degrees also so that the text reads vertically. Use this (http://imgur.com/gpQqxW2) classic image as a template. Don't forget to make a reference to the numbers also - the image should probably contain text saying "10 vs 200" or whatever you remember it being. Only then will our red GMs see the merits of your case.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:00 PM

What I said was that our trainer for Hoshkar during this pull had been killed causing us to lose agro on Hoshkar. Which is absolutely true. Had that not happened, Hosh likely would have continued to balcony and none of this would have occurred. But VP is a dangerous place and shit happens. Things get taken out of context I guess.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:00 PM

Pretty sad a former GM doesn't understand how aggro works.

Former GM?

Rais

07-30-2014, 07:01 PM

Pretty sad a former GM doesn't understand how aggro works.

No but him healing his group members and others on the raid would. Are you being selective just to be a troll or what?

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:02 PM

No but him healing his group members and others on the raid would. Are you being selective just to be a troll or what?

No actually. You are wrong. If the group members had agro, healing them would transfer agro to him. Not the other way around.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 07:05 PM

It isn't about just eating the suspension either. I don't mind a week off from raiding. It's about the precedent this particular situation would set that makes you liable for the aggro other guilds build on mobs simply because their FTE message was the first to go off in a zone with 6 dragons in it. It's so easy to manipulate and get another guild banned by this precedent.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 07:06 PM

No but him healing his group members and others on the raid would. Are you being selective just to be a troll or what?

No it wouldn't. They would have to buff him. Are you really this stupid Ambrotos ?

Lazie

07-30-2014, 07:07 PM

Former GM?

Yes that is Ambrotos.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:08 PM

Yea, I'm fine with a week off from VP. Hell I'd fine with a week off in general if it was our choice and IB didn't benefit from it. Class R VP week, lets do it.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:09 PM

Yea, I'm fine with a week off from VP. Hell I'd fine with a week off in general if it was our choice and IB didn't benefit from it. Class R VP week, lets do it.

I'd be*

Rais

07-30-2014, 07:09 PM

No actually. You are wrong. If the group members had agro, healing them would transfer agro to him. Not the other way around.

That shouldn't be the case. That's not the way it was working before. Even bandaging people should cause chain agro, or any buff to or from a person aggro.

What I said was that our trainer for Hoshkar during this pull had been killed causing us to lose agro on Hoshkar. Which is absolutely true. Had that not happened, Hosh likely would have continued to balcony and none of this would have occurred. But VP is a dangerous place and shit happens. Things get taken out of context I guess.

This is the only thing that is even worth shit in this entire situation. Glad Hitpoint can fess up as to what happened. Now it makes sense as to how Sirken and Deru ruled.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:15 PM

That shouldn't be the case. That's not the way it was working before. Even bandaging people should cause chain agro, or any buff to or from a person aggro.

Yes, bandaging a person will transfer agro from the person being bandaged, to the person bandaging, but not the other way around. It's quite easy to test. As far as I know, it's always worked this way.

I didn't need to admit to anything Ambrotos, they have the logs, and you can even see our trainer die in the fraps. It's visible on Bandito's chat log for some reason. Everyone knew that our train up had been killed. It was really asked more as a rhetorical question, to make a point. I still disagree with it and it's a very dangerous precedent. It means that if someone else pulls a dragon and you pull a dragon immediately following that, that the first guild needs to keep agro and move it for ever, and the second guild doesn't have to do shit about it. I don't see how or why this should be any different than a plane of fear kite. If you are pulling a dragon, you should find the train and take responsibility for it. And the other guild shouldn't be forced to keep it occupied indefinitely while you kill the dragon for free.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 07:25 PM

Yes, bandaging a person will transfer agro from the person being bandaged, to the person bandaging, but not the other way around. It's quite easy to test. As far as I know, it's always worked this way.

I didn't need to admit to anything Ambrotos, they have the logs, and you can even see our trainer die in the fraps. It's visible on Bandito's chat log for some reason. Everyone knew that our train up had been killed. It was really asked more as a rhetorical question, to make a point. I still disagree with it and it's a very dangerous precedent. It means that if someone else pulls a dragon and you pull a dragon immediately following that, that the first guild needs to keep agro and move it for ever, and the second guild doesn't have to do shit about it. I don't see how or why this should be any different than a plane of fear kite. If you are pulling a dragon, you should find the train and take responsibility for it. And the other guild shouldn't be forced to keep it occupied indefinitely while you kill the dragon for free.

Well it's beside the point to add that the Xygoz and Druushk pulls take roughly 20 seconds to get FTE using stalking probes. So both Hokushin and Dolic were in the process of pulling the dragons at the same time. The FTE messages were about 2 and a half seconds apart. Hoshkar has to be moved or he walks down with these dragons on pulls and IB never made an attempt to move him thinking they could sneak pull past him. So we were the ones forced to move Hoshkar out of the way even though Hokushin was the first with FTE. We essentially kept the path clear for them to kill Xygoz.

Yet their bad calls at zone in by Hokushin walked Hoshkar all the way to zone in and trained 2 raids. I am going to enjoy this new precedent set by the GM's though. Wait until IB is about ready to pull and aggro another dragon first FTW.

Alarti0001

07-30-2014, 07:30 PM

Brotos still doesn't understand game mechanics. /facepalm

Clark

07-30-2014, 07:42 PM

Rais

07-30-2014, 07:44 PM

Working mechanics, changed mechanics, bugged mechanics and mechanics that should be in the game are different things. Fuck if I know what has changed or not the past 5 months. I know sit agro was added, that's about it. I am more than willing to admit I have no clue what is in the game now or how things go.

Me knowing or not knowing mechanics of what is in game now doesn't change the fact mobs were trained through a pull. That is the issue and nothing else. You train, it's 100% on you. It doesn't matter what zone. It has been this way for years. Saying it's unfair or being blind sided by this rule is pretty dishonest.

You can't sit there and stomp your feet saying it's unfair, when the rule was put in place that was ruled in TMO's favor and IB was suspended for it.

I was just trying to find the proof that IB trained themselves that everyone kept talking about. Not untill I said something, and Hitpoint admitted to it, that the reason why IB gained agro was because of TMO's pull/train and that "shit happens". Shit does happen, but you are still responsible.

So much for staff being corrupt and ruling the same way as they have before about a raids pull/train. I will agree about the difference in punishment not being the same for the same offenses between both guilds in vp. That you have a leg to stand on.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:48 PM

Me knowing or not knowing mechanics of what is in game now doesn't change the fact mobs were trained through a pull. That is the issue and nothing else. You train, it's 100% on you. It doesn't matter what zone. It has been this way for years. Saying it's unfair or being blind sided by this rule is pretty dishonest.

You misunderstand. We were blindsided because it was never brought to us before we were suspended.

And why does this train rule not applied in plane of fear? Or VP until yesterday. In PoF, when another guild engages CT you drop your kite by dying or capping out. It's been this way for years. You know this, so why are you saying something different?

Rais

07-30-2014, 07:52 PM

Lopretni

07-30-2014, 07:52 PM

Well I guess it's better they did it an hour before spawns rather than doing it midfight and telling you to piss off. I'm still catching up so I might be wrong on that.

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:56 PM

You're going to argue a point where I was allowed to make a rule of no training (only to be rescinded by a new gm) in Fear and use that against anything I said?

Unless this is new, whoever had the train had 100% responsibility of it. I don't recall any situations or petitions otherwise stating what you are saying when I was on staff. Only ones I do recall are the petitions of people who were training, losing control of said train and that guild was punished. Happened very rarely and I think maybe twice it ever happened.

I have no idea about some past ruling by you. I honestly don't know what you're talking about in your first sentence. I'm referring to a practice that occurs in Fear every single time CT spawns. When guild A's bard picks up a fear train, the guilds B's bard has to find, and bracer him. So that when guild B engages CT before guild A, guild B can have control over guild A's train. If guild B does not steal guild A's train. Then guild A will WC cap and drop the train, causing guild B to wipe. This is how CT engage has worked for like 3 years at least and is well within the accepted rules. How do you now know about this?

Hitpoint

07-30-2014, 07:57 PM

not know about this?*

Chanto

07-30-2014, 08:06 PM

the pullers have some responsibility too, and that is that when you pull your mob through a kite or train, you have to take special care to not transfer that agro to your guild...

If you pull a mob through a kite and then just go to your camp and ask for buffs, whoever buffs you or whoever buffs the person who buffed you is added to the hate list,if they cast a spell like heal or rune, they can pull the kite right off the kiter without the kiter even dieing or anything, dont see how that can be anyones fault but the pullers.

If your running for draco and im running for draco and we both had mobs and i got draco first, you would be expected to kite your agro, but if i bring draco to camp and and get heals how are you reasonably supposed to 100% control your kite when our heals pull it off you? it really is not as black and white as you agro it first its 100% your responsibility no matter what as some make it seem.

In this situation xygoz is pulled through hosh just as much as hosh is pulled through xygoz. when they were initially agrod they are no where near each other and could only bring hosh one way, and could only bring xygoz one way, everyone is aware their paths would cross and hoshkar was pulled far enough that xygoz had time to pass him and make it to zone in a minute before hoshkar did

pufen

07-30-2014, 08:07 PM

Professor Hitpoint will be teaching a class on game mechanics this Thursday at 6pm est

Rellapse40

07-30-2014, 08:13 PM

http://i.imgur.com/U5GNwUY.jpg

Ambrotos

07-30-2014, 08:15 PM

I have no idea about some past ruling by you. I honestly don't know what you're talking about in your first sentence. I'm referring to a practice that occurs in Fear every single time CT spawns. When guild A's bard picks up a fear train, the guilds B's bard has to find, and bracer him. So that when guild B engages CT before guild A, guild B can have control over guild A's train. If guild B does not steal guild A's train. Then guild A will WC cap and drop the train, causing guild B to wipe. This is how CT engage has worked for like 3 years at least and is well within the accepted rules. How do you now know about this?
I've known this. It was never a requirement for guild b bard to have to do it. That's smart and prevents guild a from wiping guild b out. Back when the no training ruls use was made the staff sent have access to the encounter logs. It was hard to say who wiped who or had fte on cazic.

Even so if guild a bard has the train and made it and then caps out when guild b engages, he is still responsible for the train. It was ruled in the past by Rogean and one other time. So saying it's been always acceptable isn't correct. Now if Sirken is doing it differently then sure.

But as always if a person has a train they are responsible for what it does. There is no leeway.

Ambrotos

07-30-2014, 08:16 PM

Fuck auto spell. Damn cell phones

Strifer

07-30-2014, 08:28 PM

http://i.imgur.com/U5GNwUY.jpg

Dragonsblood1987

07-30-2014, 08:50 PM

http://i.imgur.com/U5GNwUY.jpg

Are you at a family reunion or something?

Lopretni

07-30-2014, 09:08 PM

Doesn't everyone get eaten out by their grandpa every morning? Uh-oh...

pufen

07-30-2014, 09:27 PM

plot twist: I eat out my grandpa. He's post-op

Dragonsblood1987

07-30-2014, 09:30 PM

^ getting moist

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 10:04 PM

I've known this. It was never a requirement for guild b bard to have to do it. That's smart and prevents guild a from wiping guild b out. Back when the no training ruls use was made the staff sent have access to the encounter logs. It was hard to say who wiped who or had fte on cazic.

Even so if guild a bard has the train and made it and then caps out when guild b engages, he is still responsible for the train. It was ruled in the past by Rogean and one other time. So saying it's been always acceptable isn't correct. Now if Sirken is doing it differently then sure.

But as always if a person has a train they are responsible for what it does. There is no leeway.

...But it's literally impossible to control the train when CT is aggroed. It's going to rush to whoever CT has/had aggro on. It's going to run straight to him. How do you expect it to be controlled? Furthermore, if you see a guild trying to rush past you (and you're controlling the kite) you're fucking right i'm gonna go more northeast to give them less dps time. Growth is going to be an even bigger mess :3

HeallunRumblebelly

07-30-2014, 10:06 PM

Lazie

07-30-2014, 10:10 PM

JayN

07-30-2014, 10:13 PM

Lazie

07-30-2014, 10:27 PM

And to top that off..Once that other guild is done wiping to CT and he summons and kills me because I was only "Killing trash for the drops yo". Raid suspension for the other guild for training the zone and CT on me.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 10:32 PM

The fact is that a very small percentage of the population (even within the class C guilds) really understand all the mechanics involved around pulling/training in these various zones. Staff has shown again and again that they don't know what they are talking about.

The idea that you are responsible for OTHER people aggroing your train is stupid, and highly exploitable.

Wake. The. Fuck. Up.

Let's say IB gets FTE on the next competitive Xygoz spawn, and to properly pull the dragon without killing themselves they actually do a trainup themselves (omg, really? yes! really! that's how it's done moron). Then let's say random TMO puller throws a hammer charge into a single wurm somewhere up by 4rac/2drakes and decides to "pull" that wurm to zone in for TMO to kill. The TMO puller aggros 1 mob, and runs to zone in, while their pulled wurm walks THE ONLY WAY IT FUCKING CAN right through the trainup by IB. Now once the TMO puller of the wurm gets to zone in they go ahead and have a bard and cleric buff them, transferring all that aggro, then they kill the wurm, and stand there like fucking morons at zone in.

Now you're telling me in the above situation it's IB's responsibility to keep their trainup mobs from coming back to zone in and attacking those idiots?

If you pull shit through someone else's controlled train then it's your own damn responsibility not to bring that shit to zone in and dump it on everyone.

Use your fucking head.

Ele

07-30-2014, 10:34 PM

What happened to waiting outside while guild 1 took their attempt at clearing the zone or killing CT?

Rais

07-30-2014, 10:37 PM

Furthermore, by pure accident, one of the class R guilds was killing a summoning mob during our CT engage. It made the fight extremely difficult and we just barely wiped. When CT spawns are guilds no longer allowed to damage trash or can we just keep a few mobs at 90% parked for when IB goes for a CT on repop?

And this is where I as a former staff member disagreed with how things are allowed. I personally don't think you should be allowed to kite fear en mass for cazic or draco. Then there wouldn't be any issues with trains. People would clear as much as they can in fear, (2+ guilds would clear it pretty fast or most of) and there would be next to no issues. Is it perfect? no Will it derail any chance of bard a or b fucking up and training the competing guild? Yes

If the guilds stay logged in when a guild engages cazic, then it's on them if they gain aggro. Some people like that idea, some don't. That's my personal feelings on that issue in fear.

If a guild is killing stuff that can summon in fear, and your guild wants to risk attacking cazic, then that's the risk. At worse case, you have one person get summoned before guild_001 zergs down cazic.

The bottom line has always been if you are aggro on mobs it is your responsibility for what they do if you lose/keep aggro. This isn't me being hard headed, it is how the rules are stated. It is your choice of risk vs reward to kite/train shit. It has always been a rule not to kite/train shit, but Sirken deems it not a big deal and turns a blind eye to it cause "shit happens". Then shit like this happens and everyone loses their mind and someone gets punished, and corruption is claimed.

Remove the aspect of training shit around, and you remove the risk of being punished for how you are bending the rules.

You have to remember the rules are there to prevent this stuff from happening. Inconsistency with rulings, and punishments ( yes, I agree with tmo that they got fucked on that, compared to IB's one dragon suspension) are an issue. It has been an issue since Amelinda was here. I know it's a shocker, but I never had any final decision about how long any guild's suspension should be.

I was always in favor of one week, and working up adding a week after each offense. It can be harsh when you get to the point you are constantly breaking rules, but it will also nudge the guilds back and remove the problem causers who earn guild suspensions.

Sirken and Deru aren't all mighty and do make mistakes. In the end they try and give an environment to try and make it so everyone can enjoy the server, and not be fucked over because someone/guild is breaking rules causing deaths/wipes. When they become nice such as allowing guilds in fear/vp to train shit around by turning a blind eye, it gives the illusion saying it's ok to do and gives everyone a free pass. Until the hammer falls because another guild caused the other to wipe. Then everyone loses their fucking minds. Then you end up in this situation with 50000 word essays.

Rais

07-30-2014, 10:38 PM

What happened to waiting outside while guild 1 took their attempt at clearing the zone or killing CT?

Was never on this server that I recall. On live my server always had the self rule of whoever broke fear, earned fear. I am sure others didn't play that way.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 10:47 PM

If a guild is killing stuff that can summon in fear, and your guild wants to risk attacking cazic, then that's the risk. At worse case, you have one person get summoned before guild_001 zergs down cazic.

1 trash mob summoned all our tanks and made Cazic run across the zone to that trash mob on the last repop CT. It caused a wipe with Cazic at 2%. It was funny to watch it happen in retrospect. But with this ruling that was handed down by Sirken and Derubel it makes it a viable option to kill another guild and have the other guild at fault for their deaths and the deaths of people that were killing the trash mob.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 10:49 PM

You really don't get it.

The bottom line has always been if you are aggro on mobs it is your responsibility for what they do if you lose/keep aggro.

How about if you get aggro on my mobs it's your responsibility for what that aggro causes? Is that hard? If I pull a mob through the middle of your pull while you're trying to.... let's say... fd split something, are you responsible when it all kills me?

Your "bottom line" is stupid, and highly exploitable. How about I just watch for someone to aggro something and then I buff them, and run off to where a bunch of people are hanging out. Can I blame you for "not controlling your mobs"?

The truth is that EVERYONE must be responsible for their aggro, whether they were the player with initial aggro or not, otherwise you simply create a system where doing stupid things benefits you because the blame falls to someone else. Your half-whit ruling principle makes it possible to get nearly everyone who plays correctly suspended in favor of someone acting stupid and malicious.

TMBLOW

07-30-2014, 10:52 PM

heres a thought:

instead of training every GD mob that exists maybe clear some stuff once in a while....

you know....like what was intended.

Vyal

07-30-2014, 10:52 PM

So if I am understanding this right if someone got pissed of in Chardok
they could pull say Korocust into the Chardok trains then sit at entrance forget to clear agro then when everyone dies they could petition and get everyone else banned?
Just seems like theres a new rule being set here that makes no sense....

Ele

07-30-2014, 10:53 PM

Socratic

07-30-2014, 10:53 PM

Btw a lot of these essays are here because people like you are too fucking stupid to see the consequences of your short-sighted dimwitted ideas regarding the ruling principles that govern decisions that affect dozens of people trying to compete here.

In other words. If you weren't so fucking dumb then there would be a lot less to post.

TMBLOW

07-30-2014, 10:53 PM

Samoht

07-30-2014, 10:55 PM

In other words. If you weren't so fucking dumb then there would be a lot less to post.

and if you guys weren't such fucking assholes, there wouldn't be any issues to begin with :D

Socratic

07-30-2014, 10:58 PM

No one is forcing the second guild to engage CT while the first guild is in zone/killing trash.

The point is that this would allow anyone to effectively wipe another guild's raid AND get them suspended for merely engaging CT. Grats exploitable petition-quest?

No one is forcing the other guild to engage a trash mob and make it summon during the ~1 minute that CT is engaged either.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 10:58 PM

No one is forcing the second guild to engage CT while the first guild is in zone/killing trash.

Oh I agree. However now one guild can sit in Fear and say "We are clearing every bit of the trash please don't touch CT and make him summon us" and delay any guild from killing CT until they can feel they can get him dead and not kill the other group.

Rais

07-30-2014, 10:59 PM

1 trash mob summoned all our tanks and made Cazic run across the zone to that trash mob on the last repop CT. It caused a wipe with Cazic at 2%. It was funny to watch it happen in retrospect. But with this ruling that was handed down by Sirken and Derubel it makes it a viable option to kill another guild and have the other guild at fault for their deaths and the deaths of people that were killing the trash mob.

That must of sucked. As much as you think I'm against TMO I have agreed that it was a iffy situation and I personally would have called it a wash since both guilds were training around. When a member of the guild accused comes out and says " hey ya, shit happens. Our puller most likely caused it when they died training" then that's it.

I posted how I feel fear/cazic engages should be like. You may like it or not, but that's the only other feaseable way to minimize any "shit happened" situations.

Socratic

You can keep posting your rage posts every where. All of this is stupid on both parties. Don't train shit, and shit won't happen. Sounds like a easy solution to me. There has been a number of times where TMO had been petitioned on about training, and Sirken ruled it was a bad situation and not controllable. So to say this situation happens all the time and to be so upset about it is overboard. They do take into consideration the situation.

Wasn't IB suspended for training you guys with a dragon also? Why is it now ok and the other people should watch their aggro? Don't focus on the training part, focus on the punishment that was different.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 10:59 PM

heres a thought:

instead of training every GD mob that exists maybe clear some stuff once in a while....

you know....like what was intended.

Sure lets walk into VP and clear 2 minute respawns forever and never kill dragons.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:00 PM

and if you guys weren't such fucking assholes, there wouldn't be any issues to begin with :D

If your guild was suspended because some idiots in another guild pulled through your mobs and trained themselves you might be a little angry too. I guess if we weren't "assholes" then we'd just die on the cross like we were told to.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:03 PM

Situations that you are listing are situations that would never happen in VP. 1. Why would anyone pull a single wurm when dragons are up during any engage? That's dumb as hell.
FTE messages are pretty clear cut and anyone single group killing a single mob in fear while someone is engaging should be held responsible. Not to mention, you should be telling that group that you are about to engage and if they fuck up your engage, it should be their fault. The situation can be exploited both ways, there is no perfect way. It can be exploited to where a guild trains up to kill a mob in VP and guild B is doing the same. Guild A trained up first so guild B has the choice to pull through or hold the pull, which can fuck them over in the long run. Guild B beats Guild A to pulling to the zoneline but in the process ran past Guild A's train transferring agro because you have no idea what the other guild is doing. Guild A drops the train up and causes a wipe and blames it on Guild B because they pulled through their train up. The mechanic can be exploited either way, if you are the person training up, you are responsible for that and if you fuck it up, its on you. Next time wait for IB to train up since your claim seems to be they never can do it or aren't capable of doing it. If these claims are all true, you shouldn't be dealing with any of these situations.

So let's babysit IB while they continue to wipe during repops because they can never execute a train up properly while Hoshkar and Silverwing are up. Gotcha.

Vyal

07-30-2014, 11:03 PM

i think this guy keeps getting dumber with each post, or is it just me

Im sorry I thought this was the special kids party thread where everyone is banging their heads against brick walls for 44 pages now and you have got nowhere.

http://cdn.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/799omg-it-spins.jpg

Retard puller didn't clear agro killed zone end of story ffs...

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:04 PM

Next time you are in fear, go wipe IB's raid and see if you get suspended, if you are there to start killing a single mob and drop it on them while they have FTE on CT. I'm pretty sure that hypothetical situation wouldn't work out for you so well.

You never drop it. You simply wait for them to engage CT so it summons their tanks. CT aggros the entire zone and his assist goes to the top of every mob in the zones aggro table.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:07 PM

Wall of text.
The difference is that in one case someone is standing at zone in with aggro pulling mobs on everyone so they are at fault, and in the other case that same person can stand there forever and it's now someone else's responsibility to keep all the mobs away from them from now until .... the server crashes?

It's a stupid idea, and way way worse than the way it's been done up until now.

Right now if you pull something to zone in you need to do your own trainaway, kill the mob, and then everyone clears aggro (the way it should be, and it's clean).

Someone else training up before you do DOES NOT SCREW YOU at all. Obviously you haven't done this, or you'd know that. Your options are easy. You either run with that person, buff them, thereby holding their aggro, or you wait for their trainup to come back part way, tag it, run up, and do your thing. Nothing changes because some other guild decided to train up before you.

Yet now because of a short-sighted idea player X can stand at zone in with aggro for an hour while player B must hold the mobs away or be suspended?

If you pull through mobs then your responsible for the resulting aggro. It's the only reasonable way to do it.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:10 PM

It must be really really hard to sit and watch a guild that supposedly doesn't know how to train up themselves (by your guild's word) and will wipe otherwise and then go grab the kill yourself. A lot of babysitting there.

We have changed since 2 months ago. Now we let them pull and wipe. It happens a lot to them on repops. Xygoz destroyed them 2 repops ago because they have no clue how to execute with the roaming dragons up. The last repop they couldn't execute a Druushk pull for the same reasons.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:10 PM

Right and I'm saying you try that next time and see how that works out for you. Anyone would know what the person is doing right away....If a group of TMO randomly decided to start killing a single mob in fear while IB or visa versa is engaging it would be blatantly obvious and they would be to blame. The only time I would say this would happen is when a Class R and Class C guild are in fear and even then if you send a tell as soon as you zone in or whoever starts the train, it would defeat that idea.

It would work fine I can't be at fault for simply killing a mob in a zone.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:15 PM

Socratic

You can keep posting your rage posts every where. All of this is stupid on both parties. Don't train shit, and shit won't happen. Sounds like a easy solution to me. There has been a number of times where TMO had been petitioned on about training, and Sirken ruled it was a bad situation and not controllable. So to say this situation happens all the time and to be so upset about it is overboard. They do take into consideration the situation.

Wasn't IB suspended for training you guys with a dragon also? Why is it now ok and the other people should watch their aggro? Don't focus on the training part, focus on the punishment that was different.

TMO didn't petition for this. Honestly VP pulling is a mess and clearing your aggro isn't always that simple, so afaik TMO doesn't petition random pulling bullshit (even when IB trains our pullers accidentally going for FTE on dragons). This idiotic ruling may change things though, and create a big mess where there didn't need to be one.

"Don't train shit" isn't a solution, unless the staff wants to completely change the rules. As you've made clear, you don't know wtf you're talking about and are putting forth a simple-minded idea that in practice would be a nightmare. Maybe you're just stirring the pot, this is rnf after all.

IB was never (afaik) suspended for training us with a dragon, unless you mean they had to give up the next spawn of that individual dragon (I think that happened on Nexona, and the situation wasn't even close to the same, they pulled it and brought it all the way).

The reason I'm angry is that IB trained themselves to get TMO suspended. The suspension itself isn't even the issue really, it's the implications for raiding that are insane. This decision makes it possible to purposefully cause a train and get your competition suspended for it. It's dumb, and will only create more work for staff.

I can't believe Sirken is still hiding from this mistake.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:16 PM

Lol so when 2 mobs are in both up at the same time or a server repop, both guilds will train up at the same time? Yeah that idea sounds like shit.

:rolleyes: It is the only way to pull and control the aggro so it doesn't train both guilds.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:20 PM

Prove that. You guys are starting to sound retarded now and looking for any loophole you can. Its kinda along the lines of say you are running to zone out because your group just died and someone runs past you and gets agro from all those mobs once you zone out. You are a cleric, the person sends you a tell saying hey dude that train you just ran past me, aggroed on me and killed my whole group, what do you do and are you to blame? Go.

No we are giving you examples that makes this ruling terrible. I am sorry if you don't understand game mechanics.

As to this, I'm not too sure about. I'm sure IB does wipe sometimes because their numbers are from what I hear around 40 or so in VP compared to 60-80. You do the math. Sounds like if you would of embraced that idea 2 months ago, you'd be in the clear.

Someone lied to you about the numbers. IB has close to 50 VP raiders. There are hours where they struggle to get 30 on. We have around 65 to 70 and there are hours where we struggle to get on 35.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:21 PM

Lol so when 2 mobs are in both up at the same time or a server repop, both guilds will train up at the same time? Yeah that idea sounds like shit.

Actually both guilds can trainup at the same time no problem. It's very easy. Whoever trains up first can be bracer'd by the other guild, or if one trainer drops their mobs they can be easily tagged on the way down and pulled back up again. It's not hard at all. It's not even really exploitable afiak. At least it has never been exploited.

Pulling mobs somewhere for the purpose of trying to wipe another guild's pull would be obvious, and to my knowledge it has never been done. If it had then the person/guild involved would have likely been punished (and it probably wouldn't even work).

Really the mechanics to pull cleanly to zone in aren't hard. There has been no issue at all that i've seen with the way things have been done for the last long while.

This ruling punishing a guild for their competition training themselves is what throws all that into question and has a lot of people up in arms.

chief

07-30-2014, 11:25 PM

velious out yet?

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:27 PM

This situation happened because we were both pulling a different dragon at the same time, and we didn't know which dragon would reach the zone in first. When their dragon showed up first we dropped all of our aggro so as to not interfere.

Why did the mobs show up?

Because they had NO TRAINUP AT ALL. They failed to do their job, and then blamed us for the mess afterwards.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:32 PM

You're giving a bunch of hypothetical examples that are completely TMO based, from TMO members, that doesn't give you much. Majority of the examples you have given prove nothing and you evade any other question that proves that anyone training is not to be blamed. Must be hard to spend so many hours learning game mechanics and still be stupid.

False. I am giving you an example of something that happened at CT las server repop. That if it happened now and was frapsed would get the guild engaging CT raid suspended by the precedent being set by this ruling. No one has evaded any questions because you aren't asking any relevant to the discussion.

IB might have 50 VP raiders but during raids there numbers are typically around 40 with 3-5 pullers and maybe 2-3 trained pullers maximum. I've seen screenshots of TMO with atleast 10-15 pullers at those same engages, once again, do the math, I'll even help you this time. If you have 2-3x as many pullers as IB upon engages and even 20% more DPS, how much does that help you in the long run? This will give you a huge advantage in the race for mobs, if IB loses 2 pullers on the train up to pull and you guys lose 4, who is at a huge disadvantage here? Not to mention any dragon that needs 65-70+ people in kunark is just ridiculous.

So again you are saying we should babysit IB because they can't execute with what they have ? That is all I am reading.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:35 PM

I will say majority of the VP pulls are pretty cut and dry from the videos I've seen. But if someone gets a jump start on the train up, which probably happened and guild B loses track of where the trainer is and can't catch up to them, it will cause huge problems. Secondly you guys were training up and pulling dragons down, whose to say someone without FD didn't bracer the person pulling from your guild and transferred agro. There is just no telling in that situation.

Yeah there is a way to tell. By the line of aggro those dragons have. It stopped in the video on 2 IB people. Catac and Bandito. They aggroed no one else at zone in until those 2 people were either charmed or dead.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:38 PM

Unless I don't know what you're talking about any more (possible), I gave you an example, and you said something about "it wouldn't happen" or some shit. The fact is that if this ruling became the benchmark it would happen every time you wanted to get your competition suspended.

Player A holds a camp Player B wants. Player A goes to pull a few mobs, Player B runs a mob by them, then gets healed/buffed a bunch, pulling Player A's pull onto Player B killing Player B. Player A gets suspended. Player B gets the camp.

If you run your pull through someone else's mobs then imo you're responsible for the resulting aggro. You can deal with it (the way it's been done in VP up until this fiasco), or drop your pull.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:40 PM

But if someone gets a jump start on the train up, which probably happened and guild B loses track of where the trainer is and can't catch up to them, it will cause huge problems. Secondly you guys were training up and pulling dragons down, whose to say someone without FD didn't bracer the person pulling from your guild and transferred agro. There is just no telling in that situation.

Not true at all. He doesn't even need to catch up. He could be halfway up the first ramp, wait for the mobs to run back, tag one on it's way down, and then a few aggro casts and bob's your uncle. Trainup handled.

It's actually easier to catch someone else's abandoned trainup than do your own from scratch.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:41 PM

Not true at all. He doesn't even need to catch up. He could be halfway up the first ramp, wait for the mobs to run back, tag one on it's way down, and then a few aggro casts and bob's your uncle. Trainup handled.

It's actually easier to catch someone else's abandoned trainup than do your own from scratch.

Which is what makes IB's claim that they were prepared to handle the train bogus. They had no clue they had fucked up and just blamed TMO.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:45 PM

Sitting back if they get FTE first or holding your train off to the side since you can't really blame someone for running past your train just as much as you cant blame the person training up for running past his pull. The rules you want can be exploited the same way, training up past someone then dropping the pull once you see they are making it to ZI and claiming they got social agro because they ran past you and not you ran past them. Its stupid.

First, there is no "off to the side" in VP really. The Xygoz pull covers probably 80% of the zone, and any trainup is so spread out that getting it all in a little cubby out of the way isn't possible.

No one should be blaming TMO for getting aggro on the trainup mobs (I don't at least, that's how VP works, esp on a Xygoz pull). What IB is being blamed for is having no trainup at all to handle the shit they got aggro on, bringing it all to zone in, and then blaming someone else.

Read my other posts. The trainup is easy, regardless of where/when anyone else drops their aggro. If you kill a dragon at zone in, then trainup has always been your responsibility, and still should be. This ruling is idiotic.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:49 PM

This seems less likely compared to the training to ZO explanation I gave, or compared to Player A holds the camp player B wants, player B grabs a huge train and runs them past Player A who is pulling mobs back to his camp and gets hit by something. Player B then FD's and lets player A die and claims it was his own fault because social agro and he should of camped out and the camp is now his. Which is more a dick in the situation? Id go with my option. Either way all the above examples are dumb as hell. The game is flawed bottom line because in any situation you are going to have exploits or people will find exploits. It just falls under you are responsible for what you are pulling and don't be a dick and don't do something intentionally.
Honestly your scenario wasn't clear to me, it sounded like the person zoned out, then another player ran into his mobs (after he was already zoned out), and blamed him? Confusing shit.

The things you don't seem to get is that this unlikely situation of negligence, while "unlikely", is exactly what IB did. They ran their mob through a bunch of shit, then stood there, died, and petitioned blaming the other guild getting them suspended. It's insane.

Lazie

07-30-2014, 11:52 PM

I asked you about a similar example with someone training to zone out. Evaded. You have one occasion where a Class R guild did something stupid to Class C because you didn't tell them you were about to engage CT? No way.

Obviously you don't understand what babysitting means. If you are having raid buff IB and pull all their mobs for them, that would babysitting. Sitting back if they get FTE first or holding your train off to the side since you can't really blame someone for running past your train just as much as you cant blame the person training up for running past his pull. The rules you want can be exploited the same way, training up past someone then dropping the pull once you see they are making it to ZI and claiming they got social agro because they ran past you and not you ran past them. Its stupid.

You are a pretty dense fella. I wonder why you even type. It is babysitting a guild in VP if we have to worry that they can't handle what comes with pulling in VP. For example. If say IB pulls through our train up again and makes the same mistake they made in that video. When the cleric heals the bard again. Every bit of the train up aggro will be heading to IB. Heal aggro>face aggro 100% of the time. So at that point we have to sit there and keep runing just to keep mobs off their raid for them. They can sit in game indefinitely and let our train up guy die or flop and then let the train run back down and kill them. Bam another suspension.

There is one guild trying to exploit the mechanics here. It's obvious who they are.

Socratic

07-30-2014, 11:56 PM

We actually had no idea which dragon was going to be hitting the zone in first, which is why we had a trainup at all.

I've already posted several times that picking up a trainup from someone else is easy, and done often, and thus you don't "fuck over" anyone by dropping yours if the other guild is pulling. I don't know how many times I have to say it. It's never been an issue before this, ever, because it's not hard and each guild has been responsible for their own pull.

It's stupid to change something that's been working reasonably well for months and force competitive guilds to aid each-other during pulls AND add a highly exploitable rule that allows you to get your competition suspended when you do something stupid/malicious.

pufen

07-31-2014, 12:25 AM

this is getting super boring.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 12:27 AM

Phil, you are obviously not a puller, you are not in TMO or IB, and you have never raided VP. Your knowledge is lacking in every single area.

IB probably averages between 30-35 people for a VP dragon. TMO probably averages 40-45. The days of anyone having 60+ in VP are long gone. The screenshots of 15 TMO pullers, are clerics, enchanters, warriors and other classes who are logging in monks/necros/sks that they have access to. Because the dragons are easy enough that if we get FTE, we will kill most dragons no matter what. It's absurd to believe that we bring 15+ pullers to VP, at least not without sacrificing other vital classes.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 12:38 AM

What I mean to say is, you are arguing with people who know a lot about these things. And your posts show that you're out of your depth.

Freakish

07-31-2014, 12:39 AM

I like to sit on my monk at the pad and switch to cleric if we get the pull. Plenty of time before dragon reaches zone in.

Bazia

07-31-2014, 12:40 AM

i think we need more tmo in here to contribute to the discussion

Sckrilla

07-31-2014, 12:50 AM

Sup. TMO is right and IB is wrong!

Happy?

Lazie

07-31-2014, 12:52 AM

Holy wall of angry text.

Lazie

07-31-2014, 12:56 AM

I will respond though. There was no waiting. Hoshkar was going to zone in on IB no matter what we did with Druushk. It was IB's aggro. We weren't to blame for any of it period. It was their puller/raid leader making bad calls. The rest of that jumbled mess I am not even attempting to read.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-31-2014, 01:05 AM

If a guild is killing stuff that can summon in fear, and your guild wants to risk attacking cazic, then that's the risk. At worse case, you have one person get summoned before guild_001 zergs down cazic.

Snipped for emphasis. That's not how cazic rolls. The trash will rotate to whoever cazic has threat on, and being so far out of range will continue to summon anyone else who tries to get threat. Cazic is literally going to have to be done with sowed / selos melee chasing him while another guild keeps 2-3 summoning mobs in summoning range if this kind of shit will stand. Park wizards elsewhere I guess.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-31-2014, 01:12 AM

Lol so when 2 mobs are in both up at the same time or a server repop, both guilds will train up at the same time? Yeah that idea sounds like shit.

How is this even an issue. You train up past their train up (all the mobs take the same path--you won't miss any) and simply rune a few times to grab aggro when you are the one currently engaging the dragon. You're playing with fire if you let the other guild decide where to put those mobs. Now if they rip them off of your train up and drop them on you, yeah, you've got yourself a grade A train. But TMO drops all aggro when IB is about to engage and tells them to take care of the mobs themselves (that they've already aggroed...).

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 01:19 AM

Phil we didn't drop Hoshkar, our trainer was killed. I'm arguing that we should be able to drop our train up whenever we want, but regardless, we didn't do that this time. Also, we have warning in /shout so everyone in the zone could see. I'm not sure how much safer we're expected to be, outside of throwing more pullers at the dragon and literally pulling it off of IB. Which I personally don't think anyone should be expected to do. If you disagree then we'll have to leave it at that.

BTW I was in VP last week on my enchanter and I saw 70 TMO in VP.

The most we ever had in VP last week was during the repop which was peak hours for us. And the largest number of people on our dkp logs for that, was 63 at one time. This is far above normal though, for obvious reasons. For this last round of spawns we had 35 (druu), 44 (nexona), 46 (Hosh) and 48 (xygoz) for the four VP dragons that we killed. Far cry from 70-90.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 01:21 AM

Or 60-80, whatever you said.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-31-2014, 01:34 AM

I think I have a screenshot if you want me to post?

Our repop VPs, if they happen at a decent hour, usually net tons of people. I think we had something like 65 at Gore, too, lol. The swarm is indeed growing, sometimes we struggle, but we usually always have enough unless something gets fucked bigtime.

HeallunRumblebelly

07-31-2014, 01:35 AM

Or 60-80, whatever you said.

We killed a PD last week with 68 or 70. Was during the perfect time though. IB had about 50 dicks-in-hand watching us kill it, too, so they weren't really lacking numbers at the time either.

Lazie

07-31-2014, 01:36 AM

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 01:44 AM

48 is pretty high for the week that a lot of your players probably figured youd be suspended and did other things. I know for a fact you had 46 logged in on the gore wipe a few weeks ago. 63 is what I have last week, for a random repop. I'm sure if we tally it over the next few weeks the numbers will be closer to 60 than 40. Honestly I'm not saying anything about the numbers despite it must be very easy to kill dragons with even 50-60 players on at any given mob spawn and it does double your advantages whether you want to believe it or not. And as I said I think the system is kinda flawed either way, in any instance you will have people exploiting every side of every mechanic to gain the edge, its EQ nature.

No, 48 was people logging in for a batphone that just said "Get to VP. Suspension lifted." So nobody thought we were suspended, and we had our best numbers for that particular batphone. Everyone left their VP chars at VP as they were instructed, because we were sure the suspension would be lifted before the windows opened.

We had 46 for the Gore kill. We had 35 for the wipe.

A random repop nets far more people than any other target. Especially at peak hours like it was.

Our average would be definitely be closer to 40, not 60. My original figures were pretty accurate. More specifically I'd say 35 early morning, 45 mid day, 60 for something like a peak hours PD pop.

You're wrong on all points, really.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 01:46 AM

We killed a PD last week with 68 or 70. Was during the perfect time though. IB had about 50 dicks-in-hand watching us kill it, too, so they weren't really lacking numbers at the time either.

Dkp logs have 69. That's for a peak hours PD that was one hour from spawning, so everyone was pretty much sitting at or near their computer ready to log in.

Rais

07-31-2014, 02:10 AM

Snipped for emphasis. That's not how cazic rolls. The trash will rotate to whoever cazic has threat on, and being so far out of range will continue to summon anyone else who tries to get threat. Cazic is literally going to have to be done with sowed / selos melee chasing him while another guild keeps 2-3 summoning mobs in summoning range if this kind of shit will stand. Park wizards elsewhere I guess.

No shit dude. Cazic agros on tank, mob that can summon due to being killed will summon tank. Cazic runs after the tank, I know how it works. It's a shitty situation and one where guilds can work it out and not dick each other over. Shocker I know, guilds deciding to be respectful of each other and not cause bullshit to happen. It's a rare concept on this server. This has been the point time and time again. I call it a price for cheesing up the entire encounter anyways by training shit around.

People want to bitch about the rules, yet these same rules happen because of the bullshit the guilds have pulled.

I will respond though. There was no waiting. Hoshkar was going to zone in on IB no matter what we did with Druushk. It was IB's aggro. We weren't to blame for any of it period. It was their puller/raid leader making bad calls. The rest of that jumbled mess I am not even attempting to read.

You can stop with the spin. It has already been stated what happened. The staff ruled in accordance with past rulings about controlling your pulls/trains. Nothing to argue since that rule was incorporated by the first ruling that was petitioned by tmo in favor of tmo. Fight the fight about consistency of punishments since you guys got fucked on that, even with IB killing the dragon.

For Socratic the above situation involved IB having 6+ mobs bard mezzed and Zeelot breaking the mobs mez. So IB said fuck it and ported out/camped. It was ruled that IB didn't control their mobs and wiped TMO from it and was suspended. Sounds like two fucked up petitions finally working each other out. Some how it always works out to even out decisions that just don't make sense.

[QUOTE=Hitpoint;1557047]What I said was that our trainer for Hoshkar during this pull had been killed causing us to lose agro on Hoshkar. Which is absolutely true. Had that not happened, Hosh likely would have continued to balcony and none of this would have occurred. But VP is a dangerous place and shit happens. Things get taken out of context I guess.

Since IB sucks so bad and can't train shit, and wait's for TMO to do it, so don't train shit. Sounds like a pretty good plan to out play them without leaving a window open of petition quest.

If anything use the argument of case #TMOvsTaken_Hate.

TMO ran up to inny's room past Taken's pull team and a 1 group at the ramp. Trained everything out of the room+inny over Taken, and FDed all the mobs on them. Killed them, and the rest of their raid running to the ramp. It was clear as day that the pull was only done to wipe Taken. Sirken ruled that Taken was at fault for moving into the path of the pull and nothing was done about the 15+ dead bodies.

Why that is ok, and you guys training shit across each other and causing aggro makes no sense to me. Whoever your rule lawyer is didn't remember that one in the case book to argue.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 02:18 AM

That's funny. Considering I'm looking at our dkp logs and you're purely speculating. I can do the week before too. 43, 46, 46, 48, 55 in VP. Taking into account the 4 VP kills I mentioned in a previous post, the average is 45.6.

44 for last week's Gore, 63 for this weeks gore, which was batphoned, then Fay poped so we went there, then we went back to Gore to kill it, so numbers were hugely inflated. 42 for Gore on the 8th. 41 for the gore that IB killed, this was after we were all rezed and buffed after the wipe, for which we pulled with 35 in zone. I don't know exactly how many we had on engage but it isn't a long pull. 38 for the gore on the 26th of last month. 43 for Gore on the 21st. That's 6 Gorenaire's for an average of 45 people.

Math says TMO averages 45 people for non-PD VP dragons, and 45 people for Gorenaire. I'm done here. Go fuck yourself.

Bazia

07-31-2014, 02:22 AM

jesus 63 people for a 32k hp dragon

Bazia

07-31-2014, 02:23 AM

did it get 1 rounded lol

Lazie

07-31-2014, 02:25 AM

[QUOTE=Rais;1557608] You can stop with the spin. It has already been stated what happened. The staff ruled in accordance with past rulings about controlling your pulls/trains. Nothing to argue since that rule was incorporated by the first ruling that was petitioned by tmo in favor of tmo. Fight the fight about consistency of punishments since you guys got fucked on that, even with IB killing the dragon.[QUOTE]

No one is spinning you simply aren't understanding what people are typing to you in plain english. The aggro to zone in was off IB's secondary aggro where a cleric healed a bard. Whether our train up guy died or not doesn't matter. Once the cleric healed the bard in that group Hoshkar was coming to zone in.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 02:27 AM

Since IB sucks so bad and can't train shit, and wait's for TMO to do it, so don't train shit. Sounds like a pretty good plan to out play them without leaving a window open of petition quest.

If anything use the argument of case #TMOvsTaken_Hate.

TMO ran up to inny's room past Taken's pull team and a 1 group at the ramp. Trained everything out of the room+inny over Taken, and FDed all the mobs on them. Killed them, and the rest of their raid running to the ramp. It was clear as day that the pull was only done to wipe Taken. Sirken ruled that Taken was at fault for moving into the path of the pull and nothing was done about the 15+ dead bodies.

Why that is ok, and you guys training shit across each other and causing aggro makes no sense to me. Whoever your rule lawyer is didn't remember that one in the case book to argue.

I never said IB sucks. Please don't quote me and then put words in my mouth. I do have respect for most of IB and their pullers.

The reason the dragons are moved and we choose to pull past them, is that despite IB being worse at moving them. We do not risk PD, ever. They have the capability of moving the dragons too, whether it's likely or not.

Using precedent? Hilarious idea. As if cases are handled with any kind of consistency or logic on this server. We ask for the server rules to be written down, for GMs to keep punishments consistent, just completely basic things that will never happen.

Is it a rule that Inny has to be fought upstairs? Apparently it used to, be but isn't any more. Oh but wait then Sirken made a in-game broadcast that it wasn't allowed. Where is the post/written rule on this? IB pulled inny to the zone in three weeks ago and isn't punished for it. So is this a rule or not? I have no fucking idea. IB trains Nexona on us and we lose 1 nexona, we apparently (for the sake of argument) train Hosh on IB and we lose an entire week of VP, plus we had all our loot from our four legitimate kills deleted. So we essentially lose two weeks of VP. Where was it written that we'd lose our loot for mobs that we killed while off suspension? It isn't in the post that lists the conditions of our temporary un-suspension. Can you see what I'm getting at? All we want is consistency and for precedent to mean something. Really. It would make things 1000x easier.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 02:29 AM

- Easier for everyone involved that is. Staff included.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 02:31 AM

The broadcast stated that Inny could not be pulled to zone in btw. I apparently left that part out.

Antarctica

07-31-2014, 03:00 AM

We had 46 for the Gore kill. We had 35 for the wipe.

[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] Players on EverQuest:
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[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Joystick <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Siela <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Kerby <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Phantasmist] Lavendyr (Gnome) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Ekco <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Imba <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Sorcerer] Thannos (Gnome) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Phrantique <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Kickathon <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Sorcerer] Helicopter (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Badus <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 High Priest] Doktyr (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Cyrano <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Zartron <The Mystical Order> LFG
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Nefarion <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Beemss <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Oracle] Kattarina (Barbarian) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Ikingl
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Frostte <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Snackxaphone <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Aanelan <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Fahndango <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[59 Blackguard] Konsent (Iksar) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] There are 71 players in Dreadlands.

Lazie

07-31-2014, 03:01 AM

[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] Players on EverQuest:
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] ---------------------------
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 High Priest] Suegie (High Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Mazam <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Warlord] Slivereyes (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Ferns <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Zehrum <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [56 Outrider] Lookin (Wood Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Beavis <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Masha <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Sowfast
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Grandmaster] Aalpha (Human) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Zarkanoff <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Sorcerer] Tombola (Gnome) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Tolpa <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Zaxby <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Icare <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Domjot <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[60 Sorcerer] Shayera (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Echo <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Litha <The Mystical Order> LFG
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Geyncem
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Kimberlie <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Alde <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Scientology <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Spraynardd <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Eightysix <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Alarti <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Cryplz <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Atmas <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Seargant <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Plugg <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Omnia <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Rxtx <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Virtuoso] Snarfs (Wood Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Sjolemar <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Nukehard <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Chromaticity <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Jimkins <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[60 Warlock] Deathproof (Skeleton) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Gorkk <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Eskes <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Ghomie <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Knockers <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Bidibodi <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Mawltar <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Carron <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Uncharted <The Mystical Order> LFG
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Roguish <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Blastwoman <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Joystick <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Siela <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Kerby <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Phantasmist] Lavendyr (Gnome) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Ekco <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Imba <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Sorcerer] Thannos (Gnome) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Phrantique <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Kickathon <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Sorcerer] Helicopter (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Badus <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 High Priest] Doktyr (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Cyrano <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Zartron <The Mystical Order> LFG
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Nefarion <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Beemss <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [60 Oracle] Kattarina (Barbarian) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Ikingl
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] [ANONYMOUS] Frostte <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Snackxaphone <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Aanelan <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Fahndango <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] <LINKDEAD>[59 Blackguard] Konsent (Iksar) <The Mystical Order>
[Tue Jul 29 21:13:17 2014] There are 71 players in Dreadlands.

That was the recent Gore. They are discussing a different Gore.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 03:07 AM

Uhh, yea we're talking about a Gore from two or three weeks ago. Yesterday's gore melted in about 15 seconds.

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 03:09 AM

Neat log though.

Rais

07-31-2014, 03:11 AM

Using precedent? Hilarious idea. As if cases are handled with any kind of consistency or logic on this server. We ask for the server rules to be written down, for GMs to keep punishments consistent, just completely basic things that will never happen.

IB trains Nexona on us and we lose 1 nexona, we apparently (for the sake of argument) train Hosh on IB and we lose an entire week of VP, plus we had all our loot from our four legitimate kills deleted. So we essentially lose two weeks of VP. Where was it written that we'd lose our loot for mobs that we killed while off suspension? It isn't in the post that lists the conditions of our temporary un-suspension. Can you see what I'm getting at? All we want is consistency and for precedent to mean something. Really. It would make things 1000x easier.

You don't have to type it like I am saying the opposite. I agree with you and even stated numerous times what the issues are since the very first post I've made. I felt that way on staff and I felt that as a player before and after Amelinda. I even stated a petition that was handled that was pretty much the same case, and it was ruled in favor of TMO. So it isn't like I am fighting you on this.

I am only stating sometimes the stars align and decisions match those of the past. When players get upset is when decisions don't correspond to past issues. This has always been an issue and will con-tune to be an issue.

No one is spinning you simply aren't understanding what people are typing to you in plain english. The aggro to zone in was off IB's secondary aggro where a cleric healed a bard. Whether our train up guy died or not doesn't matter. Once the cleric healed the bard in that group Hoshkar was coming to zone in.

No you don't get it. If it wasn't for your Hosh train, this may very well never had happened. Between what the gms can look at, and what your own guild member stated, it was most likely the cause of Hoku of gaining agro on Hosh. It's the only thing that matters. IB didn't train themselves, TMO caused Hoku to gain agro from a failed train/pull. That's it. It's the price of training shit around.

Rais

07-31-2014, 03:12 AM

No idea what a con-tune is. Continue is what it should be!

Antarctica

07-31-2014, 03:14 AM

Neat log though.

Thanks~

Hitpoint

07-31-2014, 03:15 AM

Yea, I know you agree. I apologize for wording it like that.

Rais

07-31-2014, 03:18 AM

Is it a rule that Inny has to be fought upstairs? Apparently it used to, be but isn't any more. Oh but wait then Sirken made a in-game broadcast that it wasn't allowed. Where is the post/written rule on this? .

It's in the raid section. Amelinda allowed me to make it a rule in the past, then Sirken became gm and removed the rule. Now he wants it again from what he said in this post. So who knows where it stands at this point. I would just go off of what is stated and seems fool proof not to shoot yourself in the foot.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156672

[Mon Jun 23 21:55:25 2014] Sirken BROADCASTS, 'Hail my fellow Norrathians! Just a fun reminder about Plane of Hate - If there's already a guild at the entrance, your guild is not allowed to pull Inny to the entrance - set up camp somewhere else. thanks!'

Sirken,

Can you please clarify if this is only if guilds are in there clearing during the pop or does this also apply to FFA/Class-C races?

Example, on a Class-C/FFA Inny pop, both TMO and IB race to Hate and both guilds are now in zone, do we have to engage Inny on spawn ( or elsewhere ) and can no longer pull him to zone?

Sirken:

sure can,

If there's already a guild at the entrance, your guild is not allowed to pull Inny to the entrance, set up camp somewhere else

Lazie

07-31-2014, 03:21 AM

No you don't get it. If it wasn't for your Hosh train, this may very well never had happened. Between what the gms can look at, and what your own guild member stated, it was most likely the cause of Hoku of gaining agro on Hosh. It's the only thing that matters. IB didn't train themselves, TMO caused Hoku to gain agro from a failed train/pull. That's it. It's the price of training shit around.

[Mon Jul 28 15:05:09 2014] Hokushin -> Lazie: the hoshkar was IBs from the looks of it, which we could have easily derailed ourselves.

So even the puller admitting Hoshkar was IB's isn't enough for you ? Or do you want to keep picking and choosing what you read.

Freakish

07-31-2014, 03:28 AM

No matter how you pull Xygoz, you'll be bringing him down through Hoshkar. There is a very small brief window of opportunity where he sits in his room, then he immediately goes back to pathing through the zone. Would sneak pulling Xygoz have worked? Maybe. It apparently didn't, because Hokushin gained aggro on Hoshkar, either through someone buffing before Xygoz passed him and didn't have sneak on or he was facing the wrong way. He should have been facing away if he was being trained up.

All it means to me is that regardless of TMO interference that Hoshkar was coming to zone in. The only difference was there was no fancy zonewide FTE message to show you that you gained aggro on it.

Rais

07-31-2014, 03:29 AM

Yet this doesn't match up what the staff talked to with the players in question. It's pretty fucking simple dude. Your puller had FTE on Hosh, he and your guild was responsible for what it does while you train it away. Even in death of a puller. This goes for IB, TMO, BDA, Taken or Intense Cocksuckers of Norrath. If you have FTE and training shit around, you are responsible for it. End of story.

I can make it simple

Sirken: Who had agro on Hosh and training stuff up?

TMO : We had FTE on hosh and was training everything up.

IB: Sounds about right.

Sirken: Did Hosh come to zone in because IB had agro?

IB: Seems like it, not sure how we had agro
TMO : Well we trained shit up and Hosh passed next to Xygoz on your pull while you were waiting to engage.

Sirken: Oh, so the train up gained social agro onto Hoku, and when your puller died it went to zone in for IB?

IB+TMO: Seems like that could be the case

Sirken : Any rebuttals?

TMO: Well they should know they have agro if we lose our train/pull. It's not our fault they didn't derail it or camp out in time.

Sirken, Derubael, Rogean: .................

This very easily could be tmo in the position of IB. If it happens, petition away and get them suspended for the same thing.