Give a charmed pet a torch = Quad?

[Somekid123]

Im hearing from people that if you give an NPC you charmed "a torch" which has no stats and is secondary only, it'll allow it to quad. I don't recall this being classic if so ill try and dig up info unless someone happens to post otherwise that it is.

Whatever happen to the rusty weapon combos? Im more so annoyed running through The Hole trying to find newbs a Smoldering Brand to give away, killing the mob wasting my time / mana and it drops nothing due to it being "a torch" and NPC's not returning items given to them.

[Daldaen]

Any secondary equippable item (bard instruments) allow pets to dual wield.

I too do not recall it being classic. But this is a very hard one to prove against.

I think if the situation were flipped, and it didn't work like it does now on P99, and people wanted to get it changed, they would have a VERY hard time finding evidence promoting the notion that secondary items should allow mobs to dual wield.

[Scrubosaur]

Believe it allows a mob to dual wield - so if it can double attack = quad. Probably just saves the time of having to carry 2 weapons to force a dual wield.

[Potus]

It isn't classic, it's a bug here.

Giving a mob a secondary only slot on live actually turned DW off.

Necro pets still have this great bug on red and require torches.

[Haynar]

It isn't classic, it's a bug here.

Giving a mob a secondary only slot on live actually turned DW off.

Necro pets still have this great bug on red and require torches.
Nerf that crap!!!!

H

[pasi]

To my knowledge, this did not work on live.

However, having low weight torches allowing quads somewhat remedies the nonclassic issue of weapons not being recoverable from charmed NPCs for those too poor to afford WR bags.

[Byrjun]

Did it not work on live, or did very few people ever think about it/talk about it?

There's lots of things that happen on P99 that "never happened on live," like Warriors locking their aggro with Midnight Mallets. Doesn't mean it wasn't possible.

[blondeattk]

I saw this on live. You cant prove otherwise.

[Rhambuk]

Nerf that crap!!!!

H

Do it H

[Daldaen]

Did it not work on live, or did very few people ever think about it/talk about it?

There's lots of things that happen on P99 that "never happened on live," like Warriors locking their aggro with Midnight Mallets. Doesn't mean it wasn't possible.

This is what I was talking about. If it weren't this way on P99, and someone thought it was, finding evidence to support this would be near impossible I thinks.

The only way to prove that it wasn't possible is find someone giving a pet a torch, bard instrument or shield saying it didn't add DW.

But Mallets are more of a mechanic thing. In classic it did have 5 charges of instant cast slow and merchants allowed recharge by not differentiating items based on charge. People didn't think to use them on warrior, but it is known that slows are aggro and anyone can spam click them.

Torches on the other hand would have to be a very specific bug that goes against standard game mechanics. Better comparison would be Goblin Gazughi Ring, where IvA provides enormous aggro even though the mechanic of casting an invis doesn't normally, that was just a special bug to that spell.

I'm of the opinion this should be pulled unless someone can provide some link or screenshots of pets holding secondary items. Cause proving something that didn't exist is extremely difficult. Common sense should reign supreme until evidence proves that EQ devs left a bug or stupid mechanic in game that makes no sense.

[Rhambuk]

I'm of the opinion this should be pulled unless someone can provide some link or screenshots of pets holding secondary items. Cause proving something that didn't exist is extremely difficult. Common sense should reign supreme until evidence proves that EQ devs left a bug or stupid mechanic in game that makes no sense.

If pets can do it i want to quad on my wizard with stein in offhand.

damn pet classes get all the breaks

[Erati]

would be nice to see people carrying pet weapons again

however, I kinda agree that without having the ability to reloot your nice weapons ( a classic feature) it seems this is a good trade off since its hard to prove otherwise that this wasnt possible

Allow us to carry 2 gnoll whips and then reloot them after we slay our pets !

[Loke]

however, I kinda agree that without having the ability to reloot your nice weapons ( a classic feature) it seems this is a good trade off since its hard to prove otherwise that this wasnt possible


Agree with this. I would much rather roll around HS with a pet wielding a Dawnfire and Steel Hilted Flint Dagger than a torch in off hand. Allowing torches is a pretty tame compromise.

[Daldaen]

Losing that pet to an LD or lag spike or late invis break would suck really hard though...

[Wrench]

Losing that pet to an LD or lag spike or late invis break would suck really hard though...

this assumes people would weaponize a pet during charm soloing

i personally never weaponize or haste unless im grouped and plan on keeping the pet alive

[planarity]

"In order to activate this ability you must give the pet two weapons, these can be summoned or normal, but must be one hand items, and not restricted to a specific slot."
So a Torch would be a big no no..

Surely this just means you can't give pet two primary-only or weapons and expect it to dual wield. on P99 pets wont equip primary-only weapons in the offhand slot, so this is correct.

[Alunova]

I believe both of these are to prevent exploits. Handing in specific items to remove an NPC's ability to dual wield or to attack at all and transferring no-drop items through pets. Most likely not changing.

[Potus]

I believe both of these are to prevent exploits. Handing in specific items to remove an NPC's ability to dual wield or to attack at all and transferring no-drop items through pets. Most likely not changing.

Forgive me but I'm not following. NPCs don't take anything I give them right now, how is charming one and giving it a torch going to turn off DW (which is classic) somehow an exploit?

[Haynar]

They should behave like they were given items. Just not add to loot table.

H

[Daldaen]

Bump.

With the fix Haynar made, charmed pets given weapons now drop them when killed.

I think it's time to remove the ability for pets to automatically dual wield when given a no-damage Offhand item like a Shield, Torch, Book, Bard Instrument, etc.

There has been no evidence supporting this behavior being classic, only evidence against it. Now that keeping your weapons via killing off your charm pet and looting is an option. And now that high level pets DW without weapons, there isn't a need for Torches making pets DW.

Could we get this fixed?

[Grimjaw]

a) you shouldn't need to charm in order to give them stuff
b) its not just torches, the bug is clearly evident with a shield also... a shield should act as a shield, not as an offhand weapon.
c) there are some issues with 2 hand weapons where people are somehow able to give their pet a 2h weapon plus a torch or something else, thus causing dual wield with a 2 handed weapon. if you give your pet a 2 handed weapon he shouldn't accept anything in the offhand. if you give him the offhand first, it shouldn't accept a 2h weapon in the primary. pets need to have the exact same rules as players when it comes to equipping primary/secondary. if a player cant do it, then a pet shouldn't be able to.
d) I even notice this issue on raid mobs such as when cazic thule spawns holding The Soul Leech, Dark Sword of Blood in primary and you can actually see him holding Lyssa`s Darkwood Piccolo in his offhand.
e) other day I saw someone give a rusty 2 hander to their enchanter animation, and the animation was holding a 2h weapon in primary & shield in offhand. that is wrong on so many levels (animations shouldn't accept regular weapons like that)

[Nirgon]

They should behave like they were given items. Just not add to loot table.

H

yah

shadowed men would spawn with a weapon and a book... and not quad

pets should be the same

fuk dis torch crap

[Daldaen]

a) you shouldn't need to charm in order to give them stuff
b) its not just torches, the bug is clearly evident with a shield also... a shield should act as a shield, not as an offhand weapon.
c) there are some issues with 2 hand weapons where people are somehow able to give their pet a 2h weapon plus a torch or something else, thus causing dual wield with a 2 handed weapon. if you give your pet a 2 handed weapon he shouldn't accept anything in the offhand. if you give him the offhand first, it shouldn't accept a 2h weapon in the primary. pets need to have the exact same rules as players when it comes to equipping primary/secondary. if a player cant do it, then a pet shouldn't be able to.
d) I even notice this issue on raid mobs such as when cazic thule spawns holding The Soul Leech, Dark Sword of Blood in primary and you can actually see him holding Lyssa`s Darkwood Piccolo in his offhand.
e) other day I saw someone give a rusty 2 hander to their enchanter animation, and the animation was holding a 2h weapon in primary & shield in offhand. that is wrong on so many levels (animations shouldn't accept regular weapons like that)

A. Agreed. Worthy of another bug thread.

B. Agreed. I mention this in my bump.

C. This is a peculiar one. There is evidence supporting pets ability to dual wield 2-handers. There is also evidence that players could load an NPC (let's say Brother Zephyl) with a 2HB and this would remove his ability to quad. I feel like maybe 2h kills ability to DW but you could let them DW if you gave them two 2handers.

D. Agreed, visible on NPCs

E. Disagree. Animation pets should be able to wield weapons no problem.

[Grimjaw]

all 2h say primary and I know pets follow those rules so giving him 2h should only attempt to put the 2nd 2h in the primary but fail because one already exists

[Buellen]

Enchanter pets do get a 2hander weapon graphic look at the higher levels so not sure if that impacts them having 2hander in their primary hand and shield in the other.

[eisley]

You could certainly weaponize your enchanter animation in vanilla. In fact you basically needed to give it two FS daggers or it was garbage. The two daggers lowered its delay and gave it the ability to dual wield. I have a vanilla era screenshot of my enchanter pet next to me holding two daggers, if it would be of any use.

I definitely do not remember shields granting NPC's the ability to dual wield - in fact it could be used to the opposite effect. You could give mobs that had innate dual wield a 2 hander to negate it, pretty common practice - to the point they made some bosses spawn with 2 weapons and so forth. I believe giving them a shield negated DW as well, but honestly just remember the ol' rusty staves.

Always wondered why you can't give shaman pets weapons here either... or any animal it seems? you certainly could on live... I mean, I don't have "proof," but, does anyone even contest this? It stuck out to me because, like enchanters, shamans really needed to give their pet weapons to make it worthwhile.

But maybe I'm wrong about everything, who knows.

[Daldaen]

all 2h say primary and I know pets follow those rules so giving him 2h should only attempt to put the 2nd 2h in the primary but fail because one already exists

You can say this, and it makes sense... But that's not how it worked in classic.

Pets would dual wield and use 2handed weapons in primary and secondary, like honey badgers, they didn't give any fucks.

I know there are some classic pictures floating around with pets DWing scythes and 2hand slashers. I'll see about finding those links.

[Grimjaw]

only proof was on 2h scythes so mabe a bug on scythes?

[Daldaen]

Sigh, no that's just what the magician happened to use. There are posts about double weighted axes and I'm sure I can find some about double 2h swords.

Pets didn't care, they used them all

[tristantio]

Shaman pets can't use weapons here? I know on live my shaman djd

[blondeattk]

only proof was on 2h scythes so mabe a bug on scythes?

no! it was cos they looked good, and they were easy to farm off specs.

[Dolalin]

Quick bump because pets dual-wielding from torches etc seems not to have any classic evidence for it.

To add a bit to the mix, although it's a bit out of era and for mage pets, regarding shields:


11/15/02

You're right - handing a shield (such as the summoned elemental
defender) does negate dual wield.

Weapons make the pet do more damage if weapon damage times 2 is
greater than the pet's base damage

For all other questions - http://www.magecompendium.com

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/kYDuk6dIAZw/P1vxS7YFIIoJ


Regarding dual-wielding 2h weaps (summoned pet again):


11/21/00

"Sean" <suny...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:LIBS5.262182$JS3.39053771@typhoon.nyroc.rr.co m...

> To get a pet to dual weild you must give it two one handed weapons.

I recall an incident with either the level 34 or 39 necro pet (can't recall
which exactly) that it will dual wield two 2h bronze axes that drop off the
dwarves in Butcherblock.

I just smiled and told people that commented about it that my pet was "quad
wielding" ; )

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/TUbuac_klKk/fax_lmcQxhAJ


And people definitely gave 2h weaps to mobs like BroZ to stop them dual wielding and possibly slow them down, this wasn't changed/fixed until Luclin:


5/27/02

"Christopher Jackson" <ch...@eurocom.com> wrote in message
news:ERCM76892A98FC@eurocom.co.uk...

> I've read a couple of posts about giving mobs weapons that will cause them
> to hit for less.
> Whats this all about? would you have to use sneak to get within trade
range?
> Or just run up and open a trade window quick?
> Also is this an exploit, or just a loop hole in the system.
>

It used to be that you could give them a slow 2hander to slow down the atk
delay for things that hit fast (eg bro Z, stanos), but since the last patch
that fixed giving npc's items (including having Mort/Gage say "thanks for
the Primal Velium Warsword, Dumbass" unfortunately) you can't do this any
more. Yeah, it was kind of an exploit in that it wasn't intended to be able
to happen, but AFAIK no one ever got punished for it since it really was
more of a loophole.

Oh, and also AFAIK it only worked on things that were
either non-agro or using sneak.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/A9dH_0_sibA/8dhetIyaHGoJ

[Nirgon]

I never saw a torch cause dual wield on live either

[DMN]

Who would bother equipping a pet with a torch instead of low delay weapons in classic EQ?

[Zuranthium]

Who would bother equipping a pet with a torch instead of low delay weapons in classic EQ?

Low delay weapons only changed pet attack speed in 1999. It was changed. Nobody was giving a torch to pets during 2000/2001 to make them dual wield. Not classic and should be fixed here on p99. At least it would require the OP charm mechanic to dedicate more inventory space in order to break the game.

[loramin]

Not classic and should be fixed here on p99.

Amen, but it will never happen. There's a classic blindspot when it comes to Enhanters here, as evidence by the wildly unclassic (and overly powerful) P99 charming.

[zelld52]

I play enchanter on green, and was really surprised when I first learned of handing torches to pets. On Live, handing secondary items (shields, torches, bard instruments, etc) to mobs who dual wielded stopped them from dual wielding.

[Jimjam]

I play enchanter on green, and was really surprised when I first learned of handing torches to pets. On Live, handing secondary items (shields, torches, bard instruments, etc) to mobs who dual wielded stopped them from dual wielding.

I played 17 enchanters to level 99 on live and I have to say this is the poppiest of cock. On live it worked exactly as in p99, in fact it was even better and made the mob treble attack with primary and ALWAYS double attack with it's dual wield hand.

[Awsten_Tx]

I played 17 enchanters to level 99 on live and I have to say this is the poppiest of cock. On live it worked exactly as in p99, in fact it was even better and made the mob treble attack with primary and ALWAYS double attack with it's dual wield hand.

You say this with 0 evidence to back it up while a slew of people all remember it the othe r way. This mechanic is very similar to the archery main hand bonus mechanic. Its a p99 special.

It should have been fixed a long time ago.

[Jimjam]

You say this with 0 evidence to back it up while a slew of people all remember it the othe r way. This mechanic is very similar to the archery main hand bonus mechanic. Its a p99 special.

It should have been fixed a long time ago.

You're just jealous. I just remembered. Torches also added 100 hp per level to the pet.

[Awsten_Tx]

Lil well played

[Vanifac]

While not direct evidence of the torch doing what it does on p99, I'd bet it is related and sheds some insight into the attack logic of NPCs. The gist is that ALL NPCs (incl. pets) should not roll Dual Wield unless they had equipped 2 different weapon types (ex. slashing+crushing). Verant did not realize this until the end of January 2000, at which point they had done a ton of balancing on mob damage with this bug in place and could not fix it without screwing everything up.

Their 'fix' was to basically leave it as is, remove the requirement of 2 different weapon types, and let mage pets use weapons.

Due to the apparent severity of allowing NPCs to dual wield, I imagine it would have been noticed very quickly if NPC who wielded shields/books/non-weapons in their offhands were doing that much more damage via 'unlocking' their duel wield skill. And I can not imagine that the Torch item is seen any differently to a book or shield in the attack code.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010715054639fw_/http://www.magecompendium.com/News/Week_Ending_30th_Jan.htm

In order for Necromancer pets to dual wield, it must wield two different weapons (e.g. Fine Steel Dagger and Regular Dagger.) Since mage pets cannot be armed, dual wield will never kick in, and thus our pets will never get quad attacks.

I think you may be onto something. It appears now that necromancer pets aren't dual wielding unless they are equipped with two weapons. It's easy to test this with a piercing and a slashing weapon. This could also be affecting mage pets, and could explain also why some necromancers felt their pets got weaker after the last patch.

GZ and I are going to chat with the programmer when he gets back from lunch. Has anyone noticed that NPC's no longer hit as much as they should? I'm wondering if whatever problem this is may have affected NPCs across the board or just pets.

- Gordon

Magicians and Necromancers
We discovered a bug whereby all NPCs will not utilize their "Dual Wield" skill unless they have a weapon equipped in their off-hand. This bug would not allow magician and necromancer pets to use their "Dual Wield" skill unless handed two weapons by their masters. Since magician pets could not wield weapons at all, they never used their "dual wield" skill.

Correcting this bug would cause all NPCs above the mid-20s to suddenly begin using their "dual wield" skill to attack players with their off-hand. This would cause a drastic shift to game balance, as most non-pet NPCs are generally considered balanced.

Magicians may now equip their pets with weapons. This will allow their pets to utilize their "dual wield" skill, thus increasing the number of attacks that the pet can make per round.

Since magician pets can now wield weapons, an ability previously reserved for necromancers, high level necromancer summons (44 or above) will now randomly cast spell effects upon the creatures they fight.

An additional change has been made to make it easier for necromancers and magicians to equip their pets. Previously, necromancers had to equip their pets with two *different* weapons in order enable them to "dual wield". This change allows magicians and necromancers alike to hand their pet two *identical* weapons, thus making it easier for them to get their pet to "dual wield".

These changes drew our attention to the disparity that exists between melee characters and caster pets. Both of these pets, after the initial round of changes, could wield certain weapons that would significantly increase their attack speed. We acknowledge that necromancers always had this ability, and apologize for our delay in addressing it, but weapons will no longer increase the attack speed (lower the attack delay) of a pet.