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View Full Version : AC issues are starting to be really problematic.


Byrjun
04-22-2014, 09:44 PM
So, I've been doing a lot of Velious content... Kael, Plane of Growth, Temple of Veeshan, etc. For the most part, things felt about right. Accurate max hit, accurate HP, accurate abilities (for the most part). However, everything still felt really off.

I think the problem here is the way P99 handles AC.

Let's take Eashen of the Sky for example. For any experienced guild, Eashen should serve as little less than a speed bump on entry into NToV. But on beta, Eashen is a badass machine of destruction. He doesn't flurry or rampage anymore, and his max hit seems right. So what's wrong?

After talking to some people, it appears that the issues revolve around AC. Eashen is hitting at the top spectrum of his damage range too often, and players are very very rarely ever hitting for their own max damage. This means mobs are taking much longer to kill, and are doing much more damage than they should.

So... getting the correct abilities and such on mobs is a relatively easy thing, but getting AC in order to truly make the Velious content feel more classic is going to be a more difficult obstacle, I imagine.

Alunova
04-22-2014, 10:16 PM
Keep in mind that you are in Kunark gear and likely trading major stats for AC etc. Tanks can get much higher max HP, resists and AC simultaneously in Velious.

Eashen quickly became a speed-bump, but he was not necessarily that easy at first.

He was legit killed with 33 people in Kunark gear, 3? clerics and the tank lived most of the fight. He likely could have been killed with less, and will definitely be killed with less once people gear up, which seems about right.

Byrjun
04-22-2014, 11:00 PM
Keep in mind that you are in Kunark gear and likely trading major stats for AC etc. Tanks can get much higher max HP, resists and AC simultaneously in Velious.

Well, pretty much every warrior already gears for maximum HP anyways.

There's lots of evidence floating around showing that AC gear does little to nothing to help you survive.

Even so, once of the very top tier tanks on the server probably shouldn't be getting hit for max nearly every round.

You leave out the fact that we had several attempts and the fight that we killed Eashen was about as close to another wipe as you could get.

Also doesn't address the issue with melee dps being very poor vs. Velious mobs.

Alunova
04-22-2014, 11:23 PM
It will most likely never be absolutely 100% accurate. PC's here also do far more damage than they did on live in this era.

Eashen was *very* slightly tweaked down after that kill, but Velious bosses are not going to be a cakewalk.

It will most likely takes weeks if not months to gear up for Aaryonar and 40-60 people to get the first kill, similar to live.

Haynar
04-23-2014, 12:20 AM
Well, pretty much every warrior already gears for maximum HP anyways.


And that statement, pretty much made me ignore the rest of your post.

I will run some parses at the high end, checking if AC is working anyways. I may not finish for a few days, as I tend to run 3 hour parses.

But if you have warriors maximizing HP, then complaining that AC is broke, then you need to find some different warriors.

H

Danth
04-23-2014, 06:34 AM
Don't put the cart before the horse. P1999 didn't open yesterday; those high-end Warriors know what they're doing. They've been playing for years and have spent more time tanking high-end content than anyone else on here. They gear for HP because years of experience has repeatedly demonstrated AC to have minimal, if any, benefit.

AC doesn't simply have to work, but it has to work at value ranges people can realistically obtain. Tuning around best-in-slot characters, if you aren't careful, can backfire and result in everything being over-tuned. BIS Warriors in Velious probably hit 1600-1700 AC on the character sheet; normal tanks are going to be running around with more like 1200-1300 displayed AC. That lower value range is the one that actually has to work the great majority of the time, or else players will simply deem it broken and ignore it like they do presently. Exceptions to this are specific high-end monsters like Avatar of War, which had such high attack values that NO amount of AC in velious-era gear would effectively mitigate its damage.

I've always read that the classic era, at least into Velious, plate classes had a 289 AC hard cap, possibly changing to a softcap with severely diminished returns after one of the Velious-era combat revamps (or possibly not, this was always less clear). That value can be reached in Kunark gear. My Shadow Knight is in strictly low-mid tier armor and has 274 worn AC. In serious zones that amount of AC does virtually nothing for him and he sucks up back to back to back max hits as though he's in banded. That experience is the same as all the other tanks on the server, including those who have taken (and posted) combat parses, and represents why most of them don't worry about their AC too much.

Now, if you've done a better job of programming Velious compared to previous content such that AC will actually provide a useful benefit there, great! Make sure the players know it and can take the steps to focus on that stat again.

Danth

Haynar
04-23-2014, 10:48 AM
Sorry this free server doesn't live up to your standards.

KK. Thx. Thx.

Buh bye.

Danth
04-23-2014, 11:42 AM
"Free" has no bearing on whether something is or isn't tuned ideally. If you want feedback and discussion on mechanics that may be a little off, I'm happy to post my observations. If you just want to pick a fight, I'm not interested.

Danth

Alunova
04-23-2014, 12:39 PM
What I was saying is that for the most part, in Velious, you do not have to choose. There will be large gains in max HP, AC, and resists simultaneously. All of these will work towards making encounters easier.

There will also be improvements in raid positioning, strategy and fine tuning that will make a big difference. I'm pretty sure Eashen will be killable with 20 a year into Velious.

Evasive disc also seems FAR stronger than I remember during this era. I watched a red wurm miss a Kunark geared warrior 30/35 times last night, which is not uncommon from the logs I've been getting.

Splorf22
04-23-2014, 12:47 PM
I did a test with Sakuragi where he actually took more damage over several hundred hits with a 40AC shield than without. The min/max/interval hits were exactly the same. If you read Kahvok's post, 40 item AC should be something like 10% less damage. http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118766. That being said, Byrjun, it seems that AC wasn't quite as effective against raid targets with very high attack values: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13

Also I don't understand these 'you have to gear up for Velious' comments. We know from Kahvok's post that AC was hard capped at 289. As Danth said, that was achievable in Kunark if you really wanted to. So basically Velious means that Warriors will go from 250 item AC/5800 HP (with Velious buffs) to 289 item AC/6300 HP. 40 AC/500HP will certainly make a difference, but you can easily compensate for that with another cleric as long as you aren't getting one-rounded.

Also I want to add that no one here is flaming. It's a free server and we appreciate the work you do. Isn't giving feedback the whole purpose of the beta?

Splorf22
04-23-2014, 12:49 PM
Evasive disc also seems FAR stronger than I remember during this era. I watched a red wurm miss a Kunark geared warrior 30/35 times last night, which is not uncommon from the logs I've been getting.

Evasive is insane, to the point that it's almost always a mistake to use defensive. Whether or not this is classic, I don't know. People on live might have also used defensive more to compensate for lag (the worst-case behaviour of defensive should be a bit better).

Alunova
04-23-2014, 01:13 PM
Basic test, somewhat ToV geared warrior (Not full Vulak loot), 3 spells: Aego, Focus of Spirit and Divine Strength, 6k hps. Melee hits shown only:

My automatic full hp regen was hitting every 6 seconds for an average of 1400hp (That's including damage from spells) with disc up. He hits max quite a bit, but no where near every hit.

[Wed Apr 23 11:55:43 2014] Logging to 'eqlog.txt' is now *ON*.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:49 2014] You say, '#damage 1'
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky engages Tanktest!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:50 2014] You punch Eashen of the Sky for 1 point of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 623 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:55:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 307 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 433 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 528 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:04 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:04 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:04 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:04 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:06 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:06 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 180 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:06 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:06 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:10 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:10 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:10 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 433 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:10 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 275 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 212 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 275 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 528 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 623 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 307 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 307 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 528 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 623 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:33 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:33 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 496 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:35 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 180 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:35 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:35 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 655 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:35 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:37 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:37 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:37 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:37 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 623 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:39 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:39 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:39 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:39 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 686 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 402 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 307 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:50 2014] You assume an evasive fighting style.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 180 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 402 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 623 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:56:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:04 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 465 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:04 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:04 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:06 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:06 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:06 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:08 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 275 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 686 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 433 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 528 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:33 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:33 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 655 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:33 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:33 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:35 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 433 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:35 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:35 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 370 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 212 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 275 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:57:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 180 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:00 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 180 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:02 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 243 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 623 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:09 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:09 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 307 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 465 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 528 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 307 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:27 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 655 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 655 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:29 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:31 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 496 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 212 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 655 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 560 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:50 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 686 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:52 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 496 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 433 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:54 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:56 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:58:58 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:01 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 433 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:01 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:01 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:01 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 275 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:03 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 496 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:03 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:03 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:05 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 180 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:07 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:09 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:09 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:09 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:09 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 433 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 338 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 275 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:11 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:13 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 212 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:15 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:17 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 686 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:19 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 402 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:21 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 686 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:23 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 180 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:25 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:28 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 686 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:28 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:28 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:28 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:30 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 655 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:30 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:30 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:30 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:32 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 623 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:32 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:32 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:32 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 718 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:34 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 686 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:36 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 370 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:38 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:40 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 655 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:42 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:44 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 528 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:46 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:48 2014] Eashen of the Sky tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Apr 23 11:59:50 2014] You return to your normal fighting style..

Haynar
04-23-2014, 01:23 PM
There is a component to your defense rating based on level.

And we use a softcap system, not a hardcap based system.

Warriors get a 45% return above softcap.

Adding a shield increases ur softcap.

Based on new formulas from soe, i am removing the level part from defense rating. And increasing the ac component by 4/3. This helps ac mean more, and you get hit harder naked.

Other changes that are on beta, is iksar ac bonus is moved to be equal to level, 10 min, 35 max. Previously it was level/2. Not 15 like wiki had i guess.

At low levels the softcap is more level based than defense based. I basically doubled transition so at low levels ac means more.

I added a low level raw ac cap of level * 6 + 25.

It looks better now and i can see ac scaling damage up to soft cap, and lesser reductions above softcap.

H

Splorf22
04-23-2014, 01:39 PM
Doesn't this post show that in Classic AC was hardcapped? I mean from a balance perspective I like the softcap a lot more, but:

Kavhok
EQ Designer
Posts: 14

Your AC cap was lowered. That was absolutely and unequivocally a nerf. I didn't mean in any way to imply otherwise.

Let me give a more full explanation of what happened, though. Here's how the AC formula used to work before the patch immediately preceding PoP:

The AC from your items was added up, but the value used for it was hard capped based on your level. This was the same for all classes. Once you had 289 raw AC from items (or 385 as a cloth class, since they get less effect from item AC), that was it. More AC from items wouldn't do anything.

After this, it added your class bonuses (including the monk bonus, which is equivalent to your level + 5 in raw item AC), defense skill bonus, agility bonus, and the AC from spell buffs.

Total AC at this point was capped again, this time based on class. In the Kunark-era code, this was a hard cap, but sometime during Velious it was changed to a soft cap for melee classes only. The return was fairly small, though.


The pre-PoP patch did a few things:

- The cap on item AC was no longer used except at lower levels (twinking was a concern since that was before recommended level items were in heavy use).
- Shield AC was added to the class-based cap to give shields more viability
- Class AC caps were changed. Monks were lowered the most, but beastlords were lowered to the same level as druids (yes, they were nerfed too). Cleric and shaman caps were raised above druids. The caps generally followed the armor archetypes of plate/chain/leather/cloth.
- All classes were given returns on AC over the cap, not just melee classes. All casters and priests received the least, followed by the melee classes. Rogues got the same return as monks, as did berserkers when the class was added. Beastlords and rangers got slightly more, followed by bards, then knights, then warriors.

The overall goal was to make the average dps (including mitigation, avoidance, block/dodge/etc.) taken for melee classes to be approximately:
Warrior > Knight > Monk > Bard > Ranger = Beastlord = Rogue

Aggregate data from live servers at the time was taken to determine median-AC stats for each class. Parses were run against NPCs 3-4 levels lower, facing front. The characters had cleric AC and shaman agility buffs and faced the NPC. The results of the parse were consistent with statistical analysis of the formulas in code:

Class War Pal Mnk
Level 51 51 51
Raw Item AC 184 181 107
Agility 157 144 169
Dodge 3.4% 3.1% 4.4%
Block 0 % 0% 10.2%
Riposte 4.4% 3.9% 4.1%
Parry 5.2% 4.6% 0%
Skill Evasion 12.9% 11.5% 18.7%
Hit Rate 61.2% 61.3% 58.2%
Avg Hit 72.6 72.9 74.6
% Hits for Max 10.2% 10.5% 11.5%
Avg Dmg / Round 59.7 61.1 54.5
DPS 28.2 28.8 25.7


Class War Pal Mnk
Level 60 60 60
Raw Item AC 296 281 163
Agility 177 152 187
Dodge 4.3% 3.9% 4.9%
Block 0 % 0% 11.4%
Riposte 4.8% 4.3% 4.5%
Parry 5.8% 5.2% 0%
Skill Evasion 14.9% 13.4% 20.8%
Hit Rate 59.4% 59.7% 59.3%
Avg Hit 107.3 109.9 113.6
% Hits for Max 10.4% 11.7% 13.6%
Avg Dmg / Round 87.4 91.7 86.1
DPS 50.8 53.3 50


The problem was that the average plate-equipped warriors and knights had barely any lead on monks in mitigation, due to the monk bonus, but the monk still had the lead in evasion. Contrary to popular belief, this is what prompted the nerf to monk mitigation, NOT high-end monks being rampage tanks.

The changes had little effect on average level 51 warriors and knights, but since the average level 51 monk was over the new nerfed AC cap, it increased their average damage taken per hit and increased the percent chance of max hits (in the above example) to 13%. Monks who had better than this median AC were hit harder by the nerf since it lowered their effective AC even more. Level 60 monks with exceptionally high item AC (Ssra+) weren't hit quite as hard because the uncapping of item AC gave them more returns on AC over the class cap. The median level 60 changes looked like this (evasion, of course, remained the same):

Class War Pal Mnk
Avg Hit 106 108.9 121.3
% Hits for Max 9.8% 11.2% 18.4%
Avg Dmg 86.4 90.9 91.9
DPS 50.2 52.8 53.4


Several months into PoP, the nerf was partially repealed and the monk AC cap was raised to the same level as druids and beastlords. Their return on AC over the cap was left at the same level. The reasoning at the time was based on a number of factors: the percentage of hits for max made taking damage even more unpredictable and raised the likelihood of one-round deaths more than we wanted, median AC increased for nearly all levels 51+ due to the new armor in PoP and trickle-down of old armor into the economy, and other issues were brought up.


Addendum:

Why were monks below 1160 AC affected?

The AC number you see is a composite of mitigation and avoidance. Defense skill increases both mitigation and avoidance, so gaining skill levels 50+ makes both numbers go up. At level 51, before the mitigation changes, a monk with no buffs, 150 agi, and 163 raw item AC was at the original AC cap with a displayed AC of 985. The nerf made it so that same monk with 118 AC, or 914 displayed, was now at the soft cap. Any level 51 monk with more than that would've experienced the nerf to varying degrees.

Also it occurs to me that the 3-4% numbers were almost certainly for warriors above the PoP softcap.

Splorf22
04-23-2014, 01:44 PM
Also I would like to add that there are basically two issues here: how player AC is calculated from gear, level, class and so on, and how the NPC's probability of [min, max, interval] hit is calculated from its attack score and the player's AC.

The second part is what we are questioning more than anything. Maybe Alunova is correct and attackers are just hitting for too much? Then both player and NPC damage is too high.

Nirgon
04-23-2014, 01:58 PM
Smiling down on people who think they don't have to farm Velious armor to clear tov.

You do.

Haynar
04-23-2014, 01:58 PM
Ppl parsed and concluded it was a hard cap system we were using.

How? No clue.

Making constant tweaks to a system difficult to reach hard cap, not reasonable.

And I tried to make it more like the prenerf system.

And I left the project for 2 years, and since i wrote the entire system for ac effects on clients, noone was familiar enough with code to try and adjust it without fear of breaking it worse.

I have spent about 40 hrs over last 2 weeks seeing where it needed adjusting. It was not being real effective at certain points. I think I have it better. But I am sure ppl will still bitch about it.

I am probably not going to look at it much after this as there are plenty of other things to work on.

Nirgon
04-23-2014, 03:22 PM
I do recall that higher AC was effective in new zones vs old world zones when Velious dropped (may have even been Kunark but definitely old world you got less bang for your back per AC at high values).

My memory serves me that in solb you didn't get the AC mitigation you would have in a zone like Velks. Worth some dig.


Found this as a starter:

source thread discussing ac (http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4726)

Here's a general guideline for what you should shoot for as a minimum.



Old World - 900 ac

Kunark - 1100 ac

Velious - 1250 ac

Ssra - 1350 ac

PoP - 1500+ ac



More (http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=3219.10;wap2) and saying the hard cap existed from day 1

More (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4707) from EQ clerics

I'm agreeing with how things should work as ATK vs AC in the EQ clerics thread personally and this is probably where I am thinking of old world values vs Velious content. This also would explain why the SK twinks I played were virtually unhittable by people their level in my little rememberings I post :P. Some of the people foaming at the mouth to correct AC can look through this, I'm probably taking a little break from forumquesting at least in new areas for a while.

One last thing for sure? I never agreed with people saying ATK was just some phantom stat.

Rogean
04-23-2014, 03:30 PM
I want you guys to keep a few things in mind about AC:

1. The version of Eashen you were fighting had a larger minimum hit than he should have. This has been corrected (Many velious raid mobs are being adjusted to their correct values).
2. The AC system was revamped by Haynar midway through Kunark to be much more accurate. The system itself is pretty solid and Haynar to this day is continueing to tweak it. However:
3. More importantly than the code to support a correct system is the mob values that also need to be set correctly. If there's an issue with mobs hitting too hard, this is most likely the reason. Mobs inherit an attack value by default from a formula in code, and then this can be modified further by database values the content devs can set. These values are just as important to the effect of a player's AC as the code itself, and many mobs are not tweaked for this.

So I just want people to keep this in mind before being so quick to blame the AC Code, as it's much more than code that affects the system. Also, you guys might find that a lot of parsing done in the early days of Kunark may not be accurate anymore, as we are still updating the system and mob values.

Nirgon
04-23-2014, 03:45 PM
What's Eashan's atk tho

Rogean
04-23-2014, 03:48 PM
Eashan's Attack? I dunno you'd have to ask him. I'm too lazy to log into his character.

Eashen's attack? The value would mean nothing to you, they are specific for our system.

pasi
04-23-2014, 03:55 PM
The logs don't look too off. Eashen is a high DPS mob, but he doesn't have much HP. If he's absolutely stomping tanks, the problem likely lies with NPCs being able to get haste from their inventory/loot.

AC didn't mean a thing beyond 289 real AC until close to PoP as it should be hardcapped and then switched to softcap w/ weak returns later on. The gear that gave you HP generally gave you enough AC to hit the hardcap/abysmal softcap returns. Hammered Golden Hoop was BiS (w/ Vryinn's obv) for a reason.

Defensive is a thing to prevent damage spikes. Evasive will usually be more effective at reducing your overall damage intake. However, with CHeal chains, you are not worried about your tanks damage intake rather than how vulnerable you are to losing your tank to spikes

With defensive, you can run a 4 second cheal rotation here and have little danger of tank death (would need 3 ripostes).

Nirgon
04-23-2014, 04:01 PM
Eashan's Attack? I dunno you'd have to ask him. I'm too lazy to log into his character.

Eashen's attack? The value would mean nothing to you, they are specific for our system.

Very good Emperor, very good.

ATK isn't being taken into account, so you're tweaking your own system to match it.

I imagine I'll revisit this when its much too late for changes to be considered. I'd probably suggest being interested in ATK and doing it right from the ground up.

Rogean
04-23-2014, 04:10 PM
Atk is being taken into account. The mob defaults to an attack value which then needs to be adjusted via the modifier in the database.

If a mob had no attack then it would be hitting for minimum hit every swing.

You can stop acting like we're ignoring the problem. Our perception of the problem is very much different than your opinion of AHMAWGAWD THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

Everyone here is trying to act like their a god damn AC Expert. The fact is, NOBODY except the original everquest programmers know how the AC vs Attack code should work. We don't have those formulas. Therefor, no matter how accurate we get it, the system we put in place will be our own system with values that will need to be set to work FOR THAT system. If you suddenly find the source code for eqlive's system AS WELL AS NPC CONTENT FILES TO GO WITH IT, then I'd love to make it perfect! So, Excuse me for getting annoyed that you guys seem to think that these values are well known or something and that it's our code that's broken. You're being insanely ignorant.

Meaningful feedback such as "Soandso mob should be hitting harder or softer, spiking more or less, etc" is useful. "Fix your AC" is NOT.

Haynar
04-23-2014, 04:13 PM
Very good Emperor, very good.

ATK isn't being taken into account, so you're tweaking your own system to match it.

I imagine I'll revisit this when its much too late for changes to be considered. I'd probably suggest being interested in ATK and doing it right from the ground up.

There is a baseline attack based on mob level and stats. And we can add to that with additional amounts. It does not translate into same meaning of attack that client use value vs value.

The data for emu does not have specific stats, skills, etc on a per mob basis.

H

Nirgon
04-23-2014, 04:15 PM
Whoa hey whoa. I've seen/been told time and again (by players) ATK means nothing here.

I'm not an AC expert. I just dropped some links and asked what his ATK was, you said it wouldn't matter to me... which I took out of context (thousand pardons).

I just don't want to see you guys go to a bunch of trouble and then a piece of evidence arises that undoes everything. Dat's it.

Oh I want it classic. Lemme get that in there too.

Methinks compiling as many logs as exist on the internet helps and this is no simple issue to tackle.

Whoever claims to be an AC expert, must also claim to be an ATK expert... glhf.

Splorf22
04-23-2014, 04:40 PM
So, Excuse me for getting annoyed that you guys seem to think that these values are well known or something and that it's our code that's broken. You're being insanely ignorant.

When I do a test where equipping a 40AC shield does not change the distribution of min/interval/max hits, then I think something is broken. What would be really awesome is if we could see some numbers for the % of min/max/interval hits for a few interesting mobs vs 100/150/200/250/300 etc item ac. Say something like L50, L55, L60, L65, and L70 mobs. It shouldn't be too hard to whip up a script to do this: it's just a few for loops; IIRC GMs already have access to the #AC test although I think that only works for mob ac?

Shiftin
04-23-2014, 05:09 PM
I feel like we're really ignoring the second part of the original post in that players are hitting for quite a bit less on these mobs than is expected. Would my logs from our Eashen fight be useful in that regard? I can post or email them if so.

I have BIS kunark weapons and the max ATK possible without casted avatar or velious aura of battle items (Tormax quest belt), so there should be pretty direct comparisons you could draw between my damage and damage during velious.

Haynar
04-23-2014, 06:16 PM
I have not looked at anything with pc on mob damage. All my ac changes were done with client dmg mitigation.

Played a tank class on live. So that is more my area, than stuff affecting dps on mobs.

H

Shiftin
04-23-2014, 06:56 PM
How would you like us to help you (or who) approach that aspect of the testing? Beyond a general feel of "mobs are taking too long to die" I mean.

On Eashen it's less of a problem, but on mobs with a lot more HP, a fight taking 50% longer due to mob mitigation issues is a big deal.

There's only so much a melee DPS can do to impact their outgoing DPS once they have BIS weapons and understand strafing and aggro management. I can barely affect my +ATK outside of choosing VOG or getting Avatar cast to me because its components (Str, weapon skill) are capped. Going into Eashen I was doing the most damage a fully geared Kunark era rogue could do, and i lucked into the lightning claw, so short of getting a heartwood thorn off tunare (not downed with loot until near or after TOV was cleared on live) or the +ATK belt from yelinak's head, i'm doing the same damage a fully geared velious rogue would have done.

Alunova
04-23-2014, 07:37 PM
NPC AC values were incredibly low across the board and I believe many people are used to 32k dragons after being in kunark etc. for so long.

Our NToV raids typically had at least 8 clerics and at least 20 pure dps classes (rogues, wizards, monks etc.) The fights lasted much longer than 5 minutes even then.

If you look at old logs from the era, you will see warriors hitting for 1 and 5 and 9, 7/10 swings, and the other 3 are misses.

There is one thing that can easily add dps to a raid and that is to bring more dps players.

I'll keep reviewing and balancing, but there are a thousand factors to consider. Making sure there is some purpose for wizards other than Hoshkar/Zlexak is one of them. Making sure bosses are killable (in most cases), but not steamroll easy is another.

Splorf22
04-23-2014, 07:52 PM
Maybe that's why everyone loved Gharn's Rock of Smashing? 6/13 on the face of it should suck.

Also Shiftin, did you have avatar?

Treats
04-23-2014, 11:22 PM
players are hitting for quite a bit less on these mobs than is expected. .

I like.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 12:42 AM
I parsed Derakor the Vindicator.

Vs Sakuragi w/evasive disc:

718 attempts
368 misses (52.6%)
238 hits (31.2%)
139 hits for max (58.4%)
589 average hit


Vs Kental (rampage tank)

215 attempts
117 misses (54.4%)
72 hits (33.5%)
45 hits for max (62.5%)
603 average hit


Note that Kental is full cobalt; Sakuragi does have 2x Bracers of Benevolence and the Barbed Dragonscale boots but otherwise is basically in his Kunark gear. So Kental had about 50-75 displayed AC on me, but he got hit for max almost 10% more. Now this isn't a small sample size, but it isn't exactly big either. So I am not jumping to conclusions here. But these are the kind of parses that make everyone question the value of AC for raid tanking. I would be very curious to see Derakor's average hit vs 150, 200, 250 etc item AC. Maybe his ATK value is simply so high that we are all scum to him.

Rogean
04-24-2014, 01:49 AM
The kael mobs had higher attack than intended. We're looking at lowering it. In our own testing, we saw good results for AC against temple of veeshan mobs, which have better tuned attack values then Kael.

We are also looking at increasing mob chances to hit. This should change the balance of evasive vs defensive but only slightly.

Thoughts?

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 11:21 AM
Would you be willing to post those internal test results Rogean?

First, it seems we were really unlucky last night:

Out of ... 40+ ? or so total Vindic Kill in my life if seen 25i+BP, 15+ Boot, 1 Earring

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13 suggests that evasive should be used up until the DI/DB ratio is 0.14. If we let E be the % hit reduction and AC be the average DI number (20 = always max, 0 = always min) we can write:

E * (DB + (AC * DB * 0.14)) = (DB + (AC * DB/2 * 0.14))
E * DB * (1 + 0.14AC) = DB * (1 + 0.07AC)
E = (1 + 0.14AC)/(1 + 0.07AC)
E = 2.4/3.8 = 63% (AC = 20 -> always max hit)
E = 1.7/2.4 = 71% (AC = 10 -> median hit)
E = 1 / 1 = 100% (AC = 0 -> always min hit)

So probably evasive should result in being hit 2/3 as much - maybe a bit more, if the old school warriors gave the edge to defensive to reduce spikes. So something like being hit 65% of the time with defensive and somewhere between 40-45% of the time with evasive feels right. Instead both Kental and I were down near 30%. That's actually a 33% increase in damage.


Kael Drakkal.........................Pause........Resis ts
Derakor the Vindicator....T1........30.............-
Statue of Rallos Zek........T1........75.............-
King Tormax...................T2........35............ -
Avatar of War.................T2........20.............-


That is a 5.25s chain. Now they did have to deal with more lag, and obviously it depends on the tank (and the thread degenerated into a flamewar quickly) but we were using a slower chain last night. Also, I suspect this is a troll, but who would actually think to drag Kyenka all the way to the arena to try this?

Slowing Vindi

Derakor the Vindicator (Vindi), in Kael Drakkal, was once a significant raid target and remains an NPC upon whom growing guilds test their mettle. Until far into Luclin, and in some cases Planes of Power, he was the scale by which mobs were rated. People would say "X is harder than Vindi" or "...slightly easier than Vindi" or "...like fighting 2 Vindi's at once". Vindi himself was a measure of power, and a stepping stone, for many, to the "high-end" content. One of the reasons for this is that he was fought full-on. He wasn't slowed, he was thought to be immune. Vindi was the first significant mob people practiced advanced "CH chains", "Positioning", and "Main Tank" theory on. While he has largely been replaced by more difficult measures of power, many people developed a respect and hatred for him that lingers yet today. While his loot is unimpressive, he still gets killed. If more people knew that he could be one-grouped, he'd be killed even more.

It is true that no player can slow Derakor, nor can they snare or root him. However, that's as far as the statement goes; and this does not make him unslowable. In fact, because of certain mechanics in the game, it is very difficult for any mob to be immune from any single spell without having to make it resistant to everything. Derakor the Vindicator is not immune to slow.

While no player may land slow spells on Vindi, an NPC can. Mobs can do many things that players can't, and the ability to land spells on "immune" mobs is one of them. In order to slow Vindi, you will need to charm another NPC and get him to cast the slow. Kael happens to have such an NPC, a level 57 giant named Kyenka. He can be found in the King Tormax area.

TL;DR: Derakor is supposed to tough. IMO he should hit for max a bit less, but miss much less (especially with evasive) and generally not be easier. Remember, we had 2! clerics. With 4 we would probably have won. And we had under 30 total players I believe.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 11:35 AM
Also: I don't understand why we have a softcap on AC here when we have an EQ dev explicitly stating that there was a hardcap (and exactly what that hardcap was) all throughout classic. I'm not saying that hardcap system is better or more balanced, but is the goal to be classic or not?

Rogean
04-24-2014, 11:42 AM
Vindi's chance to hit a level 60 warrior, after level and skill calculations, is currently around 68%. Evasive is a 50% reduction to chance to hit, which makes it 34%. Are you saying Evasive shouldn't be dropping it that low? It's possible evasive is not being applied at the correct spot. Perhaps only to the mob's base chance before those extra calculations are applied (level and skill).

A level 60 warrior also has around a 6% chance to trigger either Dodge, Parry or Riposte. However, these abilities are all checked separately. That's three separate 6% chances to completely avoid an attack. I'm not convinced this is working as it should.

Let me know your thoughts. This is one of the systems we have to best guess on as we have no idea of the real sequence of processing and math behind the eqlive system.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 12:05 PM
Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 50%

32% chance to avoid -> 48% chance to avoid would make a lot more sense based on this and the previous math.

So if you change evasive to 33% chance to hit reduction and decrease his hit % and max hit % slightly, that should be more classic.

Caveat: I never played Velious on live

Rogean
04-24-2014, 12:06 PM
Hmm... I like it.

Rogean
04-24-2014, 12:11 PM
Actually that brings up a good question.

There are two paths to take.

ChanceToHit -= ((100 - ChanceToHit) * AdvoidChance)

This would be 68 -= ((100 - 68) * 0.5) == 52

Or:

ChancetoHit = ((100 - ChanceToHit) * 1 + AdvoidChance

This would be ChanceToHit = ((100 - 68) * 1.5) == 48.

The second option is probably more accurate.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 12:21 PM
How do you derive your second option ?

Rogean
04-24-2014, 12:27 PM
I'm missing a step in my maths. Option 2 needed to be subtracted from 100 again back into chance to hit.

So yea both result in a chance to hit of 52.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 12:27 PM
Why are you changing the avoid chance to the chance to hit?

By this math if the original chance to hit was 100% with evasive on you'll be hit (100 -100) = * 1.5 = 0.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 12:29 PM
chance to hit = chance to hit * 21845 / 31768 ofc, because we hate division

Rogean
04-24-2014, 12:29 PM
Our code calculates it from the chance to hit perspective, so any math needs to be done from that.

It's impossible to get a 100% chance to hit pre-discipline, as those values are clamped at 10/90.

But let's say they weren't clamped. In your example you forgot to add it back to chance to hit. So if chance to hit is 100%, chance to avoid is 0%.. You can't increase 0% by any number, so yes it would still remain a 100% chance to hit.

Nirgon
04-24-2014, 12:41 PM
Splorf skipping a grade straight into EQ honors calculus.

Rogean
04-24-2014, 12:41 PM
chancetohit = clamp(chancetohit - (((100 - 68) * AvoidChance) / 1000)), 0, 100);

(In code, AvoidChances are * 10.. so evasive is 500).

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 12:42 PM
Hmm, actually I just thought about this, but any time a NPC would have a less than 33% chance to hit that would become 0 by this math. So maybe this isn't as good as I was thinking.

Maybe just change the original code from 50% to 33%

Rogean
04-24-2014, 12:43 PM
What situations would a mob have a 33% hit chance to start.. and maybe it should be set to 0?

If a high level player on eqlive walks into a low level dungeon where the mobs would already have such a low chance to hit.. and he hits evasive. What's the result? He would probably never get hit. So I'd imagine that would be intended.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 02:24 PM
sounds reasonable to me, now that you put it that way

now if you can just convince Haynar to implement a classic AC cap

Haynar
04-24-2014, 02:32 PM
sounds reasonable to me, now that you put it that way

now if you can just convince Haynar to implement a classic AC cap
And here you go from being all helpful to this.

Just ask anyone who has parsed, its a hard cap based system.

Done!

No need to parse anymore, load up on that hp gear.

H

Sylexis
04-24-2014, 02:42 PM
And here you go from being all helpful to this.

Just ask anyone who has parsed, its a hard cap based system.

Done!

No need to parse anymore, load up on that hp gear.

H

........

......

What did you just DO!!?!

I feel like I just got Haynar'd and I wasn't even in the thread.

*clutches gear defensively*

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 02:55 PM
And we use a softcap system, not a hardcap based system.

Warriors get a 45% return above softcap.

Is simply not classic. FWIW, I think in a vacuum your system is probably better, as Warriors in particular will cap AC easily. Verant agreed with all of us and eventually changed their mechanics. But the point is to recreate classic, right?

I suppose you probably feel I have some sort of vendetta against you or something, Haynar, but really I just want a classic server. And it has bothered me for a long time that this project has an almost fanatical attention to detail in terms of replicating typos in NPC names and reconstructing little used quests, but we have gaping holes in really important mechanics. I mean Kunark has been out for 4 years, and we just figured out that warriors are taking *three quarters* of the damage they should be with evasive discipline on. That means all raid tanking just became 33% harder. That is going to have a huge, huge impact on everyone whether it's Sky or VP or whatever. It also means Paladins and SKs just got a lot better, relatively (only 50% worse, not 100% worse).

I would really love to see some test code where we select a bunch of different tanks with different AC and pit them against a bunch of different mobs and create a big spreadsheet and then try to tune it to match classic. I don't actually think it would be that hard: really its just a double for loop that then runs the 'get average hit' 10000x and reports the results. Hell, I'm not even saying your system is necessarily wrong. I just think we have to tweak the system first before adjusting individual NPCs.

Really, I appreciate this project a great deal. I have had big personal projects before, so I know how much work it is. So please don't take this as a personal criticism. All I am suggesting is that you guys apply the same rigor to game mechanics that you do to quests and NPC names and such.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 03:04 PM
Also, just to be clear, all I am asking you to do is write the following code and share the results on google docs:


for(NPCLevel = 5; NPCLevel <= 75; NPCLevel += 5) {
for(PCLevel = 5; PCLevel <= 60; PCLevel += 5) {
for(ratio = 1.0; ratio >= 0.5; ratio -= 0.1) {
ATK = getDefaultAttack(NPCLevel);
AC = getACCap(PCLevel) * ratio;
Hit = getAverageHit(ATK, AC);
printf("L%d NPC vs L%d PC (%d AC) average hit: %d\n", NPCLevel, PCLevel, AC, Hit);
}
}

Rogean
04-24-2014, 03:05 PM
I just think we have to tweak the system first before adjusting individual NPCs.

This is where you're wrong. You can't have an accurate system without adjusting individual NPC's. Again, you guys seem to think that it's the system that's wrong and not that the NPC's have bad values. Both are best guessed systems. There is no way we would have been able to determine what mob AC and Attack values were on live.

You cannot have an accurate system without accurate values, and you cannot have accurate values without an accurate system.

Rogean
04-24-2014, 03:09 PM
And may I point out that we've been right about this, case in point: Kael mobs DID have high attack.. but it wasn't because of direct field like "Attack", it was because their strength was set too high (which contributes to attack values.. shocker?!). However, after adjusting those values to be similar to temple of veeshan mobs, we started noticing differences between AC vs HP warriors in tanking.

Sylexis
04-24-2014, 03:15 PM
Is simply not classic. FWIW, I think in a vacuum your system is probably better, as Warriors in particular will cap AC easily. Verant agreed with all of us and eventually changed their mechanics. But the point is to recreate classic, right?

I suppose you probably feel I have some sort of vendetta against you or something, Haynar, but really I just want a classic server. And it has bothered me for a long time that this project has an almost fanatical attention to detail in terms of replicating typos in NPC names and reconstructing little used quests, but we have gaping holes in really important mechanics. I mean Kunark has been out for 4 years, and we just figured out that warriors are taking *three quarters* of the damage they should be with evasive discipline on. That means all raid tanking just became 33% harder. That is going to have a huge, huge impact on everyone whether it's Sky or VP or whatever. It also means Paladins and SKs just got a lot better, relatively (only 50% worse, not 100% worse).

I would really love to see some test code where we select a bunch of different tanks with different AC and pit them against a bunch of different mobs and create a big spreadsheet and then try to tune it to match classic. I don't actually think it would be that hard: really its just a double for loop that then runs the 'get average hit' 10000x and reports the results. Hell, I'm not even saying your system is necessarily wrong. I just think we have to tweak the system first before adjusting individual NPCs.

Really, I appreciate this project a great deal. I have had big personal projects before, so I know how much work it is. So please don't take this as a personal criticism. All I am suggesting is that you guys apply the same rigor to game mechanics that you do to quests and NPC names and such.

As I always understood it a mob has a range of like 20 different amounts it hits for based on it's class level, atk etc and as long as my AC was higher than it's ATK he only landed mostly the lower half of his twenty different hit amounts and if my AC was lower than his ATK then he hit me on the higher end of his spectrum more often, and the ideal "AC" amount on a tank in an expansion was the point where your AC was above nearly ALL those mobs ATK in that expansion.

In theory, the hardcap for AC should still put our AC in the right place for the expansion to be above the mobs ATK right?

I feel like I need to go Reread Ruatha's epic melee (https://web.archive.org/web/20030806000238/http://forums.crgaming.com/eqbb/viewtopic.php?t=54615) post again.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 03:23 PM
This is where you're wrong. You can't have an accurate system without adjusting individual NPC's. Again, you guys seem to think that it's the system that's wrong and not that the NPC's have bad values. Both are best guessed systems. There is no way we would have been able to determine what mob AC and Attack values were on live.

You cannot have an accurate system without accurate values, and you cannot have accurate values without an accurate system.

Here is the problem, though. Let's take Derakor as our example since he comes up a lot in this thread. There are two issues:

How much damage does he do to an evasive warrior with 289 AC.
How much does that damage increase as the AC/level of the warrior goes down

The first part is what you are tuning by changing his ATK value. Which really is the most important part, because it is what makes the encounters too easy or too hard. But the second part is a reflection of the system and how much it penalizes having lesser armor class.

So you are certainly correct when you say that his damage depends on both his tuned value and the system. But the relative change should depend mostly on the system. So I think the first thing to do is make sure that the system works reasonably, i.e. that if a 289 AC L60 warrior is taking X damage per hit, then a 250AC L60 warrior should be taking . . . 1.06 X ? Or whatever you decide is reasonable based on Kahvok's post. And then how much that damage should change whether its an enchanter or shaman or a L55 warrior and so on, and making sure those numbers make sense. And then once you have a system that has the scaling you want, you go back and you tweak individual encounters to make them harder or easier.

TL;DR: From what I've seen its the scaling of P1999's AC system with class, level, and equipment that doesn't feel classic, not the net DPS of raid mob X.

Rogean
04-24-2014, 03:28 PM
You're basing your entire post off of one small sample size of Vindi hitting two warriors for a VERY slight difference, when they have different AC. Again, it is IRRELEVANT. Derakor's strength was too high, resulting in Atk that was negating AC Calculations.

Look.. You're feedback for things like "He's hitting too hard.. not hitting hard.. not hitting any different between these two players who have different AC" are valuable feedback. But when we look into that issue and determine what the problem is, you don't have the right to dictate to US what the problem is from your perspective.

What you need to know is that changes are being made based on the valuable feedback you HAVE contributed, and you should continue to test the new data.

Haynar
04-24-2014, 03:34 PM
You want us to revamp the system, change to a hard cap based system, and switch it back to soft cap sometime in velious, as he said it changed?

I think you should be banned, and its time for you to go make your own server and code your own hard cap system. Putting u on ignore now.

Buh bye.

This thread is dead, not reading it anymore.

H

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 03:39 PM
you don't have the right to dictate to US what the problem is from your perspective

I wish you guys wouldn't see it this way.

What you need to know is that changes are being made based on the valuable feedback you HAVE contributed, and you should continue to test the new data.

Of course; beta is fun.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 03:42 PM
You want us to revamp the system, change to a hard cap based system, and switch it back to soft cap sometime in velious, as he said it changed?

Let me give a more full explanation of what happened, though. Here's how the AC formula used to work before the patch immediately preceding PoP

Also dude if you want to ban me on the forums or even in-game, I'm honestly OK with it. Really I spend too much time here :(

Rogean
04-24-2014, 03:49 PM
I had to double check to see if Haynar even has ban privileges.. I wasn't sure. He does! Look out :P

Nobody is being banned here though.

Sylexis
04-24-2014, 03:56 PM
I certainly get the "I want it to have that classic feel again" but to be honest that's just never going to happen. Even if they had the server copied exactly it wouldn't happen because you're different, you are older, you know things about the game that you didn't then. I will never again hear my twin brother screaming from the kitchen to get out of Kithicor because it was almost dark and looking at him in confusion.

All in all the Devs have been doing a great job of recreating a place where we can have moments of that old glory, but don't get yourself banned over something this simple.

pasi
04-24-2014, 04:53 PM
You want us to revamp the system, change to a hard cap based system, and switch it back to soft cap sometime in velious, as he said it changed?

I think you should be banned, and its time for you to go make your own server and code your own hard cap system. Putting u on ignore now.

Buh bye.

This thread is dead, not reading it anymore.

H

I think he was referring to what the developer post indicates:

A Hardcap system until late Velious then a switch to a softcap system with very weak melee-only (likely <10%) returns on AC. Hypothetically, the hardcap system is what should be in place now. Obviously, the issue is that we don't have the code - even if we have the code, we don't have the values.

I understand that it would be a waste of time to work on the Classic to Late Velious AC code just so that it can be thrown out for a different set of code in a couple months. The best bet is to just have everything working for the late Velious picture right out of release. This is what you seem to be doing, and I appreciate it.

Splorf22
04-24-2014, 05:01 PM
Let me give a more full explanation of what happened, though. Here's how the AC formula used to work before the patch immediately preceding PoP:

The AC from your items was added up, but the value used for it was hard capped based on your level. This was the same for all classes. Once you had 289 raw AC from items (or 385 as a cloth class, since they get less effect from item AC), that was it. More AC from items wouldn't do anything.

After this, it added your class bonuses (including the monk bonus, which is equivalent to your level + 5 in raw item AC), defense skill bonus, agility bonus, and the AC from spell buffs.

Total AC at this point was capped again, this time based on class. In the Kunark-era code, this was a hard cap, but sometime during Velious it was changed to a soft cap for melee classes only. The return was fairly small, though.

I don't know how it can be any more clear. Regardless, this is my last head butt against this particular wall. I think you guys have done a great job building a free server to play, and if you aren't interested in fine tuning the mechanics to be classic as possible then so be it.

This thread just has me kinda depressed so I'm going to take a bit of time off; judging by my past history that will last about 24 hours :p

Sylexis
04-24-2014, 05:05 PM
What you are trying to imply by quoting and putting into bold instead of saying flat out, is that the information you are providing says the changes to softcap didn't happen until just before PoP not just before Luclin, I.e. the second change would never be in P99s timeline, ergo a hardcap should be the end of the matter according to the information you found from that guys post.

Except now you've made the dev mad at you so you're going to go away for a bit until he forgets that he's mad and hopefully listens to you again later. :p

Splorf22
04-25-2014, 11:35 AM
Except now you've made the dev mad at you so you're going to go away for a bit until he forgets that he's mad and hopefully listens to you again later. :p

No, Haynar has been irritated at me for a long time. This particular thread was just the straw that broke the camel's back. So I'm done posting this kind of stuff; mostly it seems to just make everyone involved upset (including me!) and that's not my goal at all.

Nirgon
04-25-2014, 12:16 PM
Sad to see High Priest and Splorf get to this point, and I do mean that. Loraen and Haynar are both good peeps beyond the measure of most here.

Winter is coming and its time to be men about it.

I've resolved past disputes with the Dawg and Wrench... man up and shake hands.

That said, its kind of way too early to be drawing conjectures about "too hard" before people are completely geared out.

The current system is pretty convincing to me, even if its not completely perfect (good f'ing luck with perfect). Imagine my surprise though when we get to huge hitter NPCs and we need some tweaking. That doesn't mean the current system is terrible but there's a lot of NPCs to make it work their way. We all know their formula/system isn't exactly Verant's code... but remember this is an EMULATED server. They will have to figure it out their own way and sounds like tweaking Velious era mobs (some across the board and some requiring specific fixes) is in order.

Haynar
04-25-2014, 12:45 PM
I had to double check to see if Haynar even has ban privileges.. I wasn't sure. He does! Look out :P

Nobody is being banned here though.
I wouldn't ban anyways. Not for a disagreement.

And we discussed the adding of hard caps, and it provides no real value added at this point. And might require a bunch of retuning.

I tweaked AC already. Moving on to other stuff.

H

p.s. I don't even know how to ban. Not on boards. Not in game. No reason to learn, because there are plenty of others who will do bannings if its appropriate.

Haynar
04-25-2014, 12:55 PM
The current system is pretty convincing to me, even if its not completely perfect (good f'ing luck with perfect). Imagine my surprise though when we get to huge hitter NPCs and we need some tweaking. That doesn't mean the current system is terrible but there's a lot of NPCs to make it work their way. We all know their formula/system isn't exactly Verant's code... but remember this is an EMULATED server. They will have to figure it out their own way and sounds like tweaking Velious era mobs (some across the board and some requiring specific fixes) is in order.
With the current system, it allows some pretty simple tweaking of mobs.

We typically dont have to do big parses to see how it results. We can see hit percentage, how much max hit, min hit. Adjust AC, and see immediate results.

I did run some longer parses, to make sure what we are seeing in our summary debug info, is the same as it actually behaves. I ran about 15 hours of parses at different levels, different AC, vs various different mobs.

An unbelievable amount of effort is going into tuning the velious raid mobs right now. We are watching the guilds attempting/killing stuff very closely and making adjustments.

You want to help? Get on and raid in velious to help testing. Never ending debates on hard caps, just gonna tick people off. We can agree to disagree on what is best at this point. Even if its not totally classic. The dev posts from verant, were too vague in certain aspects. But enough detail that some improvements were possible.

Hard caps will exist at lower levels with the changes being added. Lower levels, as in below level 50.

H

Nirgon
04-25-2014, 01:06 PM
High Priest being a man about it confirmed

Thx for attention to raid scene

I have some final mechanical areas of interest before I get into Velious

Plus Dark Souls 2

heals4reals
04-25-2014, 04:13 PM
Some weird things happening with what seems to feel like a 5% chance to interrupt a spell for every successful melee attack

Is this working as intended?

SamwiseRed
04-25-2014, 04:25 PM
maybe we just thought ac did more than it did back then. at least in my experience, alot of things I thought were scripture were wrong. I remember stacking as much AGI as i could on my monk because it was told it helped with evasive defense skills such as dodge and parry. hard to say and hard to get it just right.

Treats
04-28-2014, 04:28 AM
NPC and Player chance to hit should be based solely off the targets Evasive AC, there shouldn't be any other modification applied to it.

NPC and player evasion AC are dictated from Defense Skill and Agility.

Aaryonar, Eashan, and Ikitiar probably need to be harder.

These fights in NTOV should be INCREDIBLY long if you do not have Primals from Sleepers AND other Velious gear upgardes. You shouldn't be able to kill them unless you have an obscene number of clerics, the fights end up taking too long.

Splorf22
04-28-2014, 11:20 AM
The Velious mobs already have really high AC, to the point that Shiftin is complaining. Monks are doing 50-60 dps and Rogues 70. Plus we have so many shamans, each with two slots for Avatar, that most melee will probably have it even pre-sleepers anyway.

Treats
04-28-2014, 02:12 PM
The Velious mobs already have really high AC, to the point that Shiftin is complaining. Monks are doing 50-60 dps and Rogues 70. Plus we have so many shamans, each with two slots for Avatar, that most melee will probably have it even pre-sleepers anyway.

Two slots for Avatar?

Unless you have 20 shamans on your raid it is not even remotely possible to Avatar your whole melee force.

Avatar's duration and recast time does not allow for it.

Primal's should be a requirement to North Temple of Veeshan, if it is not something is wrong.

Shiftin
04-28-2014, 03:06 PM
It makes no sense that I would need a primal to even approach the damage i already do in VP against the amuse bouche mobs of NTOV. Primals should upgrade your damage, not bring you almost back to where you were in the previous expansion. If you look back the the LOS updates, pure math dicates they were far from full primals when they cleared everything by Vyemm and Vulak, even though they got a late start due to being adamantly dragon faction for 2 months.

Treats
04-28-2014, 05:38 PM
It makes no sense that I would need a primal to even approach the damage i already do in VP against the amuse bouche mobs of NTOV. Primals should upgrade your damage, not bring you almost back to where you were in the previous expansion. If you look back the the LOS updates, pure math dicates they were far from full primals when they cleared everything by Vyemm and Vulak, even though they got a late start due to being adamantly dragon faction for 2 months.

Velious was the start of high mitigation AC bosses, Luclin was even worse.

Primals will give you an upgrade but you are not doing the damage against NPC's with the same mitigation as in Kunark.

LoS was in ST a couple months before they did NTOV.

Afterlife the same, its archived on their pages.

pasi
04-28-2014, 06:41 PM
There's also a huge drop off as most raid NPCs go from 66-70 warriors from 60-65 casters.

With that said, monks with Wu/Wu + Avatar Buff aren't very far off from being at maximum-geared Velious damage (or at least until Garrath). It's not like there's tons of aura of battle stuff available, so actual gear doesn't matter outside of weapons. Yes, avatar for everyone is a modest gain, but it was never required to do some damage.

How big of a gain do you think 100 ATK is supposed to be if you think primals are a requirement?

Shiftin
04-28-2014, 06:44 PM
a couple months is generous, i literally reread their updates today.

it's fun arguing "i remember it this way, i remember it that way" with you (no, it is not), but does anyone have actual parses we can run comps against? I am happy to do the work on that, but I need a baseline other than "yeah, i should do more than 70 DPS"



How big of a gain do you think 100 ATK is supposed to be if you think primals are a requirement?

pure +ATK makes a pretty big difference in my parses currently. That's why i always go VoG.

pasi
04-28-2014, 06:58 PM
Big difference, yes.

We're talking about 'useless' versus 'useful' here, I'm asking what the perceived figure is on 600ish AC mobs.

Splorf22
04-28-2014, 07:08 PM
Two slots for Avatar?

Primal Avatar + Avatar, obviously. Everyone and their brother plays shaman on this server anyway. So worst case all of your rogues have Avatar.

Primal's should be a requirement to North Temple of Veeshan, if it is not something is wrong.

Just crazy imo. I mean how much do you expect Avatar to increase damage for PCs that are already strength capped? 20%? 30%? 50%?

edit: just to be clear, I don't think PCs are doing too little damage. Sure there is always some rogue clown in VP who does 125-150 dps, but those are the guys that a) had avatar b) hit disc and c) got lucky with backstab. The last two are obviously not sustainable for a 5 minute fight. I guess that without avatar/disc a rogue would average 85ish in VP, maybe even less.

pasi
04-28-2014, 07:58 PM
Primal Avatar + Avatar, obviously. Everyone and their brother plays shaman on this server anyway. So worst case all of your rogues have Avatar.


I don't remember them stacking and can't seem to find anything supporting them stacking.

AFAIK: The purpose of primal avatar was to remove the emerald cost. If you got primal weapons, casted avatar/primal avatar don't serve much of a purpose on PCs until you start pushing beyond 150 worn attack - I don't believe that is possible until Luclin (casted avatar doesn't count toward the atk cap, procced avatar does).

Splorf22
04-28-2014, 08:05 PM
I just mean each shaman can avatar two melee, reducing the need for primal weapons

Treats
04-29-2014, 05:31 AM
Avatar is not a huge increase for one person in a raid setting.

The increase comes from most of the melee in your raid force having it.

Do whatever I guess, I don't play here anymore anyway.

Look at Tigole's parse on the TF in Plane of Growth.

Going from VP to NToV is a fucking joke.

pasi
04-29-2014, 09:16 AM
Avatar is not a huge increase for one person in a raid setting.

The increase comes from most of the melee in your raid force having it.

Do whatever I guess, I don't play here anymore anyway.

Look at Tigole's parse on the TF in Plane of Growth.

Going from VP to NToV is a fucking joke.

I'm just trying to make the point that even if 100 ATK is a 50% increase in damage on higher AC mobs (which is an unreasonably high number that I'm using for the sake of argument), you could just bring 3 non-avatared rogues to make up for 2 avatared rogues.

No doubt on the net effect of multiple primals to overall DPS. This just isn't an era where there are number caps and/or enrage timers.

Splorf22
04-29-2014, 11:31 AM
Where did you find the log, Treats? I'd be curious to take a look.

edit: http://www.legacyofsteel.net/Archives/Post/2001-06-16 hehehe

Fysts
04-30-2014, 02:55 AM
Don't warriors have a 5 percent mitigation bonus over other plate classes. I am pretty sure this was one of their class bonuses. I remember on live you would strive for around 1300 ac on a warrior then you would go full hps. I also remember on live without defensive monks in velious gear out tanked every class, including warriors. This was because mobs missed more when attacking them, seems it wasn't just how hard mobs hit on live, but the fact they landed more of their swings compared to in kunark era.

pasi
04-30-2014, 03:39 AM
The 5% was a damage interval only mitigation added when they bumped defensive down to 45% (2003). The net effect being a buff to non-discipline tanking while keeping discipline tanking the same.

The monk mitigation thing was always pretty overblown. Top of the line geared monks might have taken less overall DPS than top of the line warriors, but the conclusion that this made them better tanks ignores the reasons why warriors have always had a monopoly on tanking. Namely, HP returns and Defensive. It was mostly warriors bitching about monks soloing. Warriors complaining while being the most powerful class in the game - nothing out of the ordinary.

HP is the most important tanking statistic in the era of CHeal.

Danth
04-30-2014, 12:20 PM
Excuse me for getting annoyed that you guys seem to think that these values are well known or something and that it's our code that's broken.

Your position is a difficult one, but it's only natural that people are going to wonder if your code is broken when you can go in-game, take off most of your armor, and not get hit for visibly more damage per minute than you do with full AC gear on. Which, incidentally, I did last night against a variety of monsters ranging from high 50's cliff golems to mid dark-blues to light blue trash. Regardless of the cause, something seems very wrong with respect to the end-result of armor function (or rather, lack therof) in game.

I know you can't perfectly replicate classic in this case due to the necessary information simply not existing. That's fine. Most of us players probably don't care overmuch about the workings behind the scenes. We just want to be able to put on armor and feel like it has some noticeable effect. You want your systems to be tuned as ideally as possible, too, so we all have the same goal here.

You said useful feedback would boil down to "Soandso mob should be hitting harder or softer, spiking more or less, etc." That feedback turns into the "fix your AC" comments because in effect the problem is with the great majority of the many hundreds of monsters in the game, from low levels through cap. Simply put, there are precious few areas where armor seems to have a beneficial effect for a level-appropriate tank. I mean, I could go to the bugs forum and start listing almost every last monster in the entire game as hitting for nearly the same damage regardless of target AC....but that wouldn't really be too useful, would it? It's more efficient simply to discuss it under the "AC is whack" subject since it's so widespread.

For the sake of testing, is there a zone or monster--particularly one already in-game (old world/kunark)--where you feel monsters are tuned correctly against high-level tanks, and where going from say 950 to 1100 displayed AC will have a noticeable and significant effect? Knowing such would be immensely useful as a "control" to compare against other zones in testing.

Danth

Haynar
04-30-2014, 01:57 PM
When a mob is way below your level, there is an adjustment due to level difference.

This is probably overcompensating when you ac is low. It was tuned for higher ac. It should be scaled.

Will look at it. I know even cons totally will beat the crap outta u if ur naked. That needs adjusted for blue and light blue. Green, maybe not so much.

H

Rogean
04-30-2014, 02:01 PM
Your position is a difficult one, but it's only natural that people are going to wonder if your code is broken when you can go in-game, take off most of your armor, and not get hit for visibly more damage per minute than you do with full AC gear on.

Again, you're missing the point of the entire argument. We're trying to get you guys to understand the difference between incorrect code and incorrect values. Both of which are needed in order to have a fully working system. The fact that you're not seeing AC working properly is not automatically a code problem. I'm saying that it's more likely the mob's are not tuned correctly (in the case of most kunark mobs, they aren't tuned at all).

The problems don't just all magically go away with correct code if the mobs don't have correct stats in the first place.

Danth
04-30-2014, 02:31 PM
No lack of understanding Rogean; I know exactly where you're coming from. It's simply the difference of perspective between that of the developer versus that of the end-user. As a developer, you can look at the back end and see where the issues lie (in this case, tuning). As a user, all I can do is log on and see that the result of the system as a whole is not as expected. In so many words, when someone like me says "AC is broken," we don't necessarily assume your specific AC code doesn't work in the literal sense. We simply mean putting on more armor in-game has no appreciable effect--for whatever reason.

Frankly it'd be better if the code itself was the issue because it'd probably be easier to fix. Going back and changing the attack values of every last monster in the entire game--or at least the great majority of them--seems like an awful lot of work. Is there anything that can be done globally?

-----------------------------------------

Haynar: The tuning you mention seems like it's potentially on the right track in terms of the behavior I observed. The funny thing I noticed was that while I wasn't taking appreciably more damage with my gear off, the peculiar thing was the rate of max hits was about the same, and much less than every round. Tanking high level monsters near to my level with practically no armor on, the expected result was to get hit for max damage nearly every time. That did not happen; rather the removal of well over 100 worn AC worth of armor, upwards of 200+ at times, had no appreciable effect on the rate of max hits (or damage per minute in general).

Danth

wycca
04-30-2014, 10:12 PM
Vindi's chance to hit a level 60 warrior, after level and skill calculations, is currently around 68%. Evasive is a 50% reduction to chance to hit, which makes it 34%. Are you saying Evasive shouldn't be dropping it that low? It's possible evasive is not being applied at the correct spot. Perhaps only to the mob's base chance before those extra calculations are applied (level and skill).

A level 60 warrior also has around a 6% chance to trigger either Dodge, Parry or Riposte. However, these abilities are all checked separately. That's three separate 6% chances to completely avoid an attack. I'm not convinced this is working as it should.

Let me know your thoughts. This is one of the systems we have to best guess on as we have no idea of the real sequence of processing and math behind the eqlive system.

I wanted to jump in on the defensive skill thing. I was in a pretty unique position to discuss these things with Maddoc while he was working on skill revamps/increases and in regards to various AA. I also did extensive parsing for years. Most of this is from memory, since I long since deleted the emails and I don't think my old SoE PM's are around since they changed forum software. I can try to dig for some self-quotes on Monkly Business, but I know I never talked very much (or at all) publically about fire rates because over time, the monk fire rate for block became quite insane (Maddoc wanted to nerf it).

Check order was -
Block
Parry
Dodge
Riposte

Each check obviously reduced the next skill's overall fires a bit, since a block rate of 10% meant you were checking Dodge on only 90% of the attacks you were checking Block on.

Each one fired the same % for skill, except for Block, which fired exactly 2x that of Parry (and the others).

The fire rate of 6% for Parry/Dodge/Riposte may be about right - at least for a Monk (not sure how different Warrior values are offhand). This would give block a rate of 12% - also seems about right, maybe a tad bit high. I seem to remember alot of sub 5% Riposte parses, while others were higher due to the nesting and Riposte being checked last. They SHOULD NOT be checking independently, the checks are always done in order. Ie, 3x checks at 6% fire rate should not = 18% mob melee hit reduction, it's -6%, -(6% of 94%), -(6% of (94% of 94%).

The neat thing is that this is probably easy to test on live still since (even tho he wanted to) Maddoc never changed how these fired (and I doubt devs post-2008 mucked with those systems). The skill levels did not change much by level at least thru 2008 when I quit, so it should be easy to remove the +% items and Improved focus on live from this era to test values that you can extrapolate comparable values from in your system. I think I still have a lvl 70 monk with 30million hp and GM regen on test leftover from assisting Rashere one time. This character could also be a good option for testing resists (which I think are off here vs. on live, altho there have been resist revamps since then on live, including ones that I think may have made resists less effective than they were in Velious (bards ruled Velious IMO)). Is there any interest in this? Obviously can't quite create the same test on live with a lvl 60 toon as we could here, but can do the reverse - ie cloning the live toon's level/skill values/gear. If we're lucky, maybe the AA was reset at some point since I was on test or maybe I can get a GM to reset it, so may even be able to remove that variant (if its not in code for some reason). Given the buffs on that character, it would be an easy matter to test about any mob in Classic-Velious for defensive skills and resists. If the numbers match at that level in a very long parse, then they should tell you if the system/npc values are fairly close even if we can't test lvl 60's. I just don't know how I might de-level the character without removing the GM buffs or having to explain to a GM that I have some buffs I shouldn't have.

This may also work well for naked AC parsing if that's helpful, altho due to the many AC/returns revamps on live, it won't show anything for geared mitigation past your softcap levels. However, if I went down to say, 0/100/200/300 raw ac, it may be comparable. Hopefully they haven't removed classic mobs or wiped test, since I haven't been on that server/live in forever.

Splorf22
04-30-2014, 10:46 PM
Kael Parses

veteran hjrek: shissar (1089 displayed AC)
Accuracy: 56.1%
Hits: 101
Min: 46 4.9%
Max: 168 16.8%
Average Hit: 109

veteran sjrelt: shield of elders (1155 displayed AC)
Accuracy: 60.1%
Hits: 134
Min: 14.9%
Max: 12.7%
Average Hit: 94

a protector of zek: shissar (1099 displayed AC)
hits: 72
Min: 5/72 = 6.9%
Max: 13/72 = 18.1%
Average: 290

a protector of zek: shield of elders (1165 displayed AC)
Hits: 129
Min: 20/129 = 15.5%
Max: 13/129 = 10.1%
Average: 261

looks pretty good here I would say . . . maybe even too good? Anyway, AC clearly works on these two mobs.

is there any way we can copy over the Veteran's atk/str to say the cliff golem and such?

Sylexis
05-01-2014, 10:09 AM
NT

Rogean
05-01-2014, 11:13 AM
Wycca,

I'm not sure I'm following you. You said that it's not suppose to be checking each of those skills separately.. I agree but I don't understand the method you're suggesting it does check.

Treats
05-01-2014, 03:13 PM
I think this is what he means:

Wrong way (%'s made up)
NPC attacks 100 times:

10% Block
10% Parry
10% Dodge
10% Riposte

10 Blocks - 100 attacks
10 Parrys - 100 attacks
10 Dodges - 100 attacks
10 Ripostes - 100 attacks

Right way (%'s made up)

10% Block
10% Parry
10% Dodge
10% Riposte

10 Blocks - 100 attacks
9 Parrys - 90 attacks
8 Dodges - 81 attacks
7 Ripostes - 73 attacks

Pretty sure Kanras fixed this though awhile back.

wycca
05-02-2014, 06:03 AM
Yes to Treats.

Hopefully I didn't misunderstand your original post, it sounded like you were using the "Wrong Way" that Treats posted when I read what you'd said.

Edit - Checked test, I've still got JT_buff. I have a petition in to try to get AA reset and lvl changed to 60. Weird seeing Cliff Golem green again.

Rogean
05-02-2014, 10:30 AM
I still have no idea what you guys are trying to convey.

Splorf22
05-02-2014, 10:51 AM
A level 60 warrior also has around a 6% chance to trigger either Dodge, Parry or Riposte. However, these abilities are all checked separately. That's three separate 6% chances to completely avoid an attack. I'm not convinced this is working as it should.

They are saying that even if that is how the ability is coded, it won't look that way in the parses, because Parry will only be checked 94% of the time, and Riposte will only be checked 89% of the time, etc.

Adolphus
05-02-2014, 01:03 PM
It's easy to see both sides of the argument. But it's obvious that AC is useless from a player standpoint and will continue to be so barring drastic changes. I really don't understand why the most simple solution can't just be implemented here - that being" tweaking AC to make it much better than it currently is?

Even if it's not entirely classic, it would seem to be far, far more simple just to improve AC rather than trying to re-tune hundreds and hundreds of NPC's in the game. It may require gerrymandering code and moving things around, but at least it won't take weeks of changing the stats on every monster in the game.

Erati
05-02-2014, 03:24 PM
It's easy to see both sides of the argument. But it's obvious that AC is useless from a player standpoint and will continue to be so barring drastic changes. I really don't understand why the most simple solution can't just be implemented here - that being" tweaking AC to make it much better than it currently is?

Even if it's not entirely classic, it would seem to be far, far more simple just to improve AC rather than trying to re-tune hundreds and hundreds of NPC's in the game. It may require gerrymandering code and moving things around, but at least it won't take weeks of changing the stats on every monster in the game.

rather than telling developers how to develope their server why dont u write some code that supports what u want to see fixed

if ur not a coder than this suggestion is pretty worthless as R has alrdy explained everything you bring up

/smh

JayN
05-02-2014, 03:57 PM
itll never ever be classi we are in a totally rewritten client; our best bet is to jack up Disciplines to offset the broken code

Rogean
05-02-2014, 03:58 PM
The client has nothing to do with AC Code and the code isn't broken, the npc's need to be adjusted. See Splorf's latest parse data for proof. I'm done explaining this to people. If you don't have something that actually contributes to the thread, don't post.

wycca
05-02-2014, 04:09 PM
Ok, here is how defensive checks worked on live, I was just trying to respond to your original comment of not being sure if how it's working on P99 is right -

1000 NPC swings on PC
Block fires 10% = 100 blocks, 900 get thru to dodge check
Dodge fires 5% = 45 dodges, 855 get thru to riposte check
Riposte fires 5% = 43 ripostes, 812 get thru

Adolphus
05-02-2014, 06:57 PM
rather than telling developers how to develope their server why dont u write some code that supports what u want to see fixed

if ur not a coder than this suggestion is pretty worthless as R has alrdy explained everything you bring up

/smh

No need to get on a nerdy powertrip there partner lol. I'm sure the devs don't need a guardian angel looking after them, even if I were being hostile or mean (which I obviously am not).

All I was suggesting was that it might be easier to look into making AC stronger rather than going through the hassle of altering a shitload of NPC's. The idea being: devs avoid X hours doing something when there might be a much faster (though not entirely kosher) way of fixing it. Gerrymandering the AC system to work with the current NPC stats would seem the faster route.

Splorf22
05-03-2014, 12:50 AM
the npc's need to be adjusted.

Is there any way to do this automatically? It seems like fixing the 'default' values should be a high priority if only to minimize staff stress . . .

How hard would it be to write a script to compute the AC of a 'median' tank (I say median, not mean, because the average might be substantially skewed by twinks) for each level. At that point you can match up each a 'normal' mob of each level with an appropriate level tank and just have a script try all ATK/STR values until something reasonable comes out. Maybe give all named +10% ATK or whatnot by default.

Rogean
05-03-2014, 12:54 AM
We're not worried about previous expansions right now. We are focusing on velious and getting the system good for those mobs. Once we're happy with where it is, we can go back then.

Alunova
05-03-2014, 10:00 AM
AC in eq was never comparable to newer games with significant and noticeable increases for each small gain. It was more subtle, I remember the same arguments on if and how much it really mattered back then as well.

The difference should only really be noticeable in large sample size logs of 10k+ hits. Not short 100 hit logs that can be hand chosen specifically to push your view of how it should be and/or take advantage of the RNG.

Alunova
05-03-2014, 10:09 AM
I'll also mention that we do have tank characters with different AC values that we use for testing, some of which have far more hours in at taking a beating from raid bosses then any normal character. AC most definitely works when comparing different AC values on the same NPC over a significant time period.

wycca
05-03-2014, 11:19 AM
Side note, if it helps for verifying resists or AC/NPC dps/stats - I've got a lvl 76 monk on Test who cannot die. Can easily parse anything in Velious you want (if I can find it up). I also reset the AA, so those wont be a problem.

While a lvl 76 toon isn't directly comparable to P99, I'm guessing that you guys could duplicate the character/skills & lvl 76. A velious npc parsing/resisting the same on both P99 and live would suggest the systems are very similar.

Haynar
05-03-2014, 11:11 PM
Added some changes to the code, so if you remove armor against lower level mobs, it will be more noticeable. Not perfect, but definitely an improvement.

So maybe next patch, you will see some differences.

Maybe we can got from "AC is broke" to "AC is overpowered" or "AC works" or "AC needs tweaked when _________" (insert specific case here).

H

Splorf22
05-03-2014, 11:18 PM
nice!

Alunova
05-04-2014, 12:29 PM
Side note, if it helps for verifying resists or AC/NPC dps/stats - I've got a lvl 76 monk on Test who cannot die. Can easily parse anything in Velious you want (if I can find it up). I also reset the AA, so those wont be a problem.

While a lvl 76 toon isn't directly comparable to P99, I'm guessing that you guys could duplicate the character/skills & lvl 76. A velious npc parsing/resisting the same on both P99 and live would suggest the systems are very similar.

One of the problems with this is that we will never get all the values.

Attack, multiple layers of AC, accuracy, haste, strength, individual resists, dex, attack speed, hps, special attack flags, agility etc etc. and this is only the value side of it. The code would also have to work exactly the same for both NPCs and players for each value to get an exact replica. This is simply not feasible even if we worked on velious for the next 10 years.

Since that is not feasible, we work to balance bosses and npcs to the approximate difficulty or slightly above through testing.

What is useful is listing comparison data such as so and so is really resistant to disease or this boss attacks superninjafast or like Haynar mentioned, AC doesn't seem to work in this range or for this NPC. We need the little corrections such as "this boss is not supposed to enrage" or "this guy is really easy/hard to hit".

Changing things at this point will mean retesting and rebalancing everything done so far, when we know that AC is working in normal situations.

Zuranthium
05-11-2014, 08:27 AM
Given that it can't be recreated perfectly, I really do hope you guys are erring on the side of making the content slightly more difficult in your calculations when there is uncertainty. The game is so much easier now than it was back then.

Scrubosaur
05-11-2014, 04:04 PM
Hopefully shield AC will be working well when Velious comes out. Back in the day my guild actually had to start using a warrior with a shield to tank things like AoW and ToV dragons. We usually started out with a ranger tagging off of a monk and then weapon shielding / flame licking (warriors all bow shot for rampage) after about 5-10 secs warrior would spam taunt and either ranger would die or MT would taunt off mob. This gave warrior a HUGE threat lead so dual wielding wasn't necessary to keep aggro, and using a shield gave a warrior a nice boost in damage mitigation.

Nirgon
05-12-2014, 12:23 PM
How much does a compilation of all boss min/max hits help? Or you already got this?

Is there a focus on getting resists capped at 255 for this expac? It will be VERY easy to hit 350+ with gear/bards. I linked a video of classic Klandicar where fear is landing even on the bards (who are in full Velious gear), I'm not so sure having the entire raid fear immune on a fight like that is a good thing.

pasi
05-12-2014, 02:21 PM
How much does a compilation of all boss min/max hits help? Or you already got this?

Is there a focus on getting resists capped at 255 for this expac? It will be VERY easy to hit 350+ with gear/bards. I linked a video of classic Klandicar where fear is landing even on the bards (who are in full Velious gear), I'm not so sure having the entire raid fear immune on a fight like that is a good thing.

I've posted min/max hit infos easily calculated through mobs DIs and DBs before. Max Hit is always just 20*DI+DB whie minimum hit is DI+DB. That's the easy stuff.

The difficult part with both AC and Resists is tuning. Having the proper AC code means little if the NPC values are not known and visa versa. In the same vein, capping resists at 255 means little if resists rates are not proper. Currently, resists against spells are quite a bit weaker than expected. However, characters are able to obtain 500 to resists which has an end result of making more resistant PCs possible. Some of this may be attributable to level difference being less of a factor. It's difficult to tell since there's not exactly tons of live data to compare this against.

It's all about tuning to a comfortable level.

Nirgon
05-12-2014, 04:13 PM
tru

Rettj
05-12-2014, 06:18 PM
I'll whip this code up in a jiffy bros

SamwiseRed
05-12-2014, 06:38 PM
I'll whip this code up in a jiffy bros

can u hack my gf hotmail?

Rettj
05-12-2014, 09:02 PM
can u hack my gf hotmail?

ya whats the username

Theturtlehermit
05-13-2014, 03:10 PM
Have you read this Rogean? I dont mean to be presumptuous. I assume you have heard of this and Im just a dummy. http://newagesoldier.com/everquest-classic-source-code-eqclassic-org/#comments

regarding classic AC formulas and NPC tables etc. ..

Nirgon
05-13-2014, 05:28 PM
https://github.com/freezzo/OpenEQC-Legacy / https://github.com/freezzo/OpenEQC

?

SamwiseRed
05-14-2014, 09:15 AM
https://github.com/freezzo/OpenEQC-Legacy / https://github.com/freezzo/OpenEQC

?

requires trilogy client. hmmm

Rogean
05-14-2014, 09:16 AM
You guys are linking the EQClassic project, another emulated sever. This is nothing new, and irrelevant.

Nirgon
05-14-2014, 11:47 AM
irrelevant.

How dare we say such a thing about a site that is named eqclassic.org that told us it was going to do custom content after testing for months. The nerve.

Theturtlehermit
05-14-2014, 03:37 PM
how is it irrelevant? Did you see the date of the posting I linked?

koros
05-14-2014, 04:33 PM
how is it irrelevant? Did you see the date of the posting I linked?

Because that product didn't have the original SOE source code, they made their own just like p1999 devs.

Theturtlehermit
05-15-2014, 12:22 AM
Because that product didn't have the original SOE source code, they made their own just like p1999 devs.

"For whatever reason a developer has handed out the source code. The way it was given has errors in the code and is unplayable. I managed to repair several files so it can at least compile and allow a few people to log in. I do have the database files for items, NPCs, tradeskills, accounts etc." dated Nov 1 2013

Haynar
05-15-2014, 12:38 AM
how is it irrelevant? Did you see the date of the posting I linked?
Its irrelevant because we have seen it before?

That code is nothing new.

We do know how to get our hands on stuff too

H

Theturtlehermit
05-15-2014, 02:25 AM
Thanks Haynar.

koros
05-16-2014, 08:42 AM
"For whatever reason a developer has handed out the source code. The way it was given has errors in the code and is unplayable. I managed to repair several files so it can at least compile and allow a few people to log in. I do have the database files for items, NPCs, tradeskills, accounts etc." dated Nov 1 2013

Is this supposed to be actual SOE code? I read this as a developer from that emu project decided to release their own source.

Rogean
05-16-2014, 08:46 AM
"For whatever reason a developer has handed out the source code. The way it was given has errors in the code and is unplayable. I managed to repair several files so it can at least compile and allow a few people to log in. I do have the database files for items, NPCs, tradeskills, accounts etc." dated Nov 1 2013

That code shares way too many similarities to EQEmu base code to be SOE Source. Trolled.

He's probably saying that an EQC Developer handed out their source code.

koros
05-16-2014, 11:14 AM
Slightly OT... speaking of warriors and an innate mitigation bonus, I very distinctly remember there being a patch, during classic I believe that made mention of warriors getting an additional 5% mitigation bonus to give them more advantage over pal/sk. I looked through the patch note archive on ZAM and can't find it. Does anyone know when/where it's mentioned? I feel like it was around the same time they added innate resist bonuses to melees classes (fr for monks, fr/cold for rangers, etc) - but I can't find that patch either.

Am I missing them? Imagining they were in patch notes somewhere (doubt it)? I feel like the patch note archives are incomplete and some semi-big patches aren't listed.

Rogean
05-16-2014, 12:15 PM
I think the 5% was added much later.

Otherwise you'd have many reports of Avatar of War's 1154 max hit being slightly lower on warriors outside defensive, which it wasn't.

koros
05-16-2014, 12:22 PM
I think the 5% was added much later.

Otherwise you'd have many reports of Avatar of War's 1154 max hit being slightly lower on warriors outside defensive, which it wasn't.

I don't think it was supposed to be a hard 5% reduction. Probably just affected the skewness of the hit distribution.

koros
05-16-2014, 12:25 PM
I don't think it was supposed to be a hard 5% reduction. Probably just affected the skewness of the hit distribution.

Per google, it looks like at some point they their interval changed from 1-20 to .95-19. It's possible I'm confusing that, but I believe I quit before it came to be a hard reduction.

Nirgon
05-16-2014, 02:37 PM
Anyone try just asking Hobart yet that has a good enough relationship with him? I understand he has a pretty strong record of bro'ing down with people.

The thing is, even with that formula we'd be doing the same thing we are now... tweaking ac/atk to make it match.

One thing is for sure though, it would probably fix the AC issues in PvP here if we did have it :).

pasi
05-16-2014, 04:16 PM
I've posted about the 5% mitigation bonus before. It was in 2003 and was an additive bonus that coincided with bumping down defensive to a 45%. The net effect being a buff to non-discipline tanking while keeping discipline tanking the same.

If you're talking about skewing the distribution of DIs, you might be thinking about AAs here.

koros
05-16-2014, 04:19 PM
I've posted about the 5% mitigation bonus before. It was in 2003 and was an additive bonus that coincided with bumping down defensive to a 45%. The net effect being a buff to non-discipline tanking while keeping discipline tanking the same.

If you're talking about skewing the distribution of DIs, you might be thinking about AAs here.

Know that patch notes that is from? I recall a much much earlier mention of a 5% war bonus from classic era, but I could be mistaken. The DI stuff I mentioned a few posts up was what I found when I googled a war mitigation bonus (which I didn't mix up with being classic)

pasi
05-16-2014, 04:31 PM
Heading into work in 10, I can dig it up tomorrow.

In the meantime, google variations of 5% mitigation bonus site:www.thesteelwarrior.org

All the talk should be 2003!

pasi
05-17-2014, 04:20 PM
As promised:

December 18, 2003

** Melee enhancements **

We have been building an enhancement to the melee system, and the first
part of it is now Live.

The yellow bar now represents endurance rather than stamina.

All Disciplines now require an expenditure of endurance to use. They
still have a re-use timer, and they can't be used more often than the
timer allows.

Disciplines have now been divided into a few different timers.

We have also added a few of the new melee skills to the game. These are
the skills that do not use the new "opening" system, but can be used
without an opening present. The "reactionary" skills and the opening
system will remain on Test for further tuning.

Warriors have been given a mitigation boost. This affects all warriors
at all levels.

Monks have been given the ability to dodge blows from attackers behind
them. This affects all monks with the Dodge ability.

All existing disciplines can be purchased as tomes in either East
Commons or the Plane of Knowledge. To learn a discipline, the Tome must
be turned into your guildmaster.

Several new disciplines have been added for warriors, monks and rogues
who are above level 60.

anotherfiz
07-17-2014, 02:44 PM
I've done a few beta raids now. Vindicator, Ikatiar, Eashan, LTK, Velks, Klan and Zlan, ect

It seems like players are damaging these mobs way too quickly, and these mobs have very little in the way of regen. On live mid-early 2001, before more than 1-2 guilds had primals and full quest armor, these mobs were usually 10-15 minute fights, not the 3-5 min's we;re seeing here. we practically zerged Klandicar last night for 2 mins and somehow knocked off 1/4 of his HP? Seems way way too fast in comparison to live.

Alunova
07-18-2014, 02:55 PM
I've done a few beta raids now. Vindicator, Ikatiar, Eashan, LTK, Velks, Klan and Zlan, ect

It seems like players are damaging these mobs way too quickly, and these mobs have very little in the way of regen. On live mid-early 2001, before more than 1-2 guilds had primals and full quest armor, these mobs were usually 10-15 minute fights, not the 3-5 min's we;re seeing here. we practically zerged Klandicar last night for 2 mins and somehow knocked off 1/4 of his HP? Seems way way too fast in comparison to live.

You were fighting Klandi for 3-4 minutes to get him to 65? percent. There were also 3 wipes and he never died, so it's hard to judge without more testing. The same goes for LTK, since she never died.

Keep in mind that during release you will have people lost/dead in Sirens, /afk after an hour of buffing with no GM mana/health, competition pushing you to attack before you are ready + 2 hour CR's from each of the 3 wipes.

As far as vindi/velk/Eashan/iky, these are minor Velious bosses. They are basically the easiest there is in Velious and people are having significant trouble with them on average.

Everyone remembers something different, including me, but I don't remember any bosses taking longer than 30 minutes except for Vyemm, Vulak and AoW. Definitely need more feedback once they are actually killed.

Treats
07-18-2014, 07:31 PM
You may need to look at NPC in combat regen again also.

Out of combat I think is correct at 1/20 (5% tic) and doesn't change for anything in Velious.

Regular in combat NPC regen should be 1/100 (1% tic)

In combat I am not sure about with the significant increase of Velious NPC total HP's.

If you apply this to something with 400k it would be 4k hp regen per tic which cannot be right. That would translate to the NPC regaining 40,000 hit points per minute.

Differing combat regen calcs would start for NPC's over 32k hp? 50k hp? or 100k hp?

The regen calc would either have to be 1/500 or 1/1000 I think.

400k hp NPC with 1/500 in combat regen would be 800 hp tic

400k hp NPC with 1/1000 in combat regen would be 400 hp tic

wycca
07-18-2014, 09:40 PM
Some simple math on kill times with Doz for example suggests that 1/500 is probably too high.