Proximity Aggro

[Nirgon]

As a continuation of Kanras's work on some undead being able to train...

What's needed is for KOS npcs to automatically add you to their threat list if they are within range of you.

Best way to remember is anyone who ever raided knew you couldn't be sitting on a pull.

Or

Knowing when it was safe to accept a res (no pull in camp). This was because if you accepted a res with a pull in camp, you would likely get instagibbed by the mob because it would pick you up on low hp aggro.

[heartbrand]

no prox aggro is the biggest LOL of all of p99 currently

[maximum]

There should already be a bug post on this "trains proximity aggro".

[Nirgon]

I know we touched on it with the undead training but.. never saw anything else. We've brought this up but never saw its own thread. Figured with Haynar coming up big lately I'd get something fresh rolling.

[heartbrand]

I mean currently, as long as a mob has someone on it's aggro list, I can stand under phara dar for example spamming hug and will never be on the aggro list.

[Colgate]

bard song aggro def very wrong on this server

distinctly remember on live if one of my songs ticked on whoever had mob aggro, was pretty hard to pull it off of me

right now bard songs don't do shit in terms of aggro on this server; aggro seems fucked in general

[Iumuno]

As far as I remember, the current p1999 implementation is correct. Back on live, if a mob was engaged, it didn't generate proximity aggro anymore. Undeads and AoE mobs may have been different.

[Nirgon]

On raid mob pulls, we had to stand.

Extremely evident when we would pull Vindicator and people would be not paying attention or just didn't stand... they would get the splat treatment.

Vindicator certainly is not undead :).


Also, infinite times we can remember (if we played on live) saying "safe to accept res?".


Colgate make separate thread for bard song threat!

Heartbrand, let's please keep the peanut gallery out of this but I think your acknowledgement is appreciated. It is an important game mechanic.

[Sundawg]

What's needed is for KOS npcs to automatically add you to their threat list if they are within range of you.



Most mobs do/did not do this. I tested this on several kinds of NPCs on EQmac when this and the "train mobs over others/undead agro" came up before.

For example on Sand Giants (which would peel off on bystanders i.e. "undead agro" if the person training them was out of melee range) there was nothing a 2nd person could do to gain "proximity agro" on that giant (so long as the first person to gain agro stays in melee range of the giant). Including sitting down under the giant for minutes at a time while it fought the first person (who then would go zone, and said giant would wander off on his merry way).

So I think it comes down to deciding which NPCs had the ability to add in-agro range players to their hate list when they are already agro on someone else. Do you have any specific examples? Examples of NPCs who would "scan the area" even if already engaged, and add nearby bystanders to their agro radius?

[Nirgon]

I will state for the record I'm sure on all the planar mobs / Derakor the Vindicator for starters.

An incomming raid mob meant everyone had to be standing or it would just ping pong (yeah this is good for business...) and 1 shot the sitters.

Constantly people would res into plane of fear during a pull and get 1 shotted on pug raids.

Though similar, I don't think these mobs had the same behavior as undeads training. Undead I think would train (transfer on to someone in their way) no matter what damage/threat was done to them. Regular mobs would just add you to their list and decide accordingly based on their current list of threat values.

I might even go as far to say this applied to all mobs that scowled. I know that is a stretch but I can't think of a single raid mob or pull where someone could just sit there through it the whole time and not get smacked for sitting.

Getting rezzed in and killed by scowl mobs should be something people remember, same with having to stand when shit was inc.

[Nirgon]

All that said, I'd be more interested in the ones that didn't than the ones that do.

"Safe to take res?" being one of the best things people can remember sending to a cleric or being told it was safe by a cleric.

[heartbrand]

I 100% recall what Nirgon is speaking about. The absence of this here is one of the largest "easy mode" differences to this server apart from resists.

[Kergan]

I seem to remember in exp groups/raids if you were being rezzed back in you would NEVER sit or you'd be dead pretty fast. That would indicate some sort of proximity agro in a general sense as I don't remember the behavior being limited to specific encounters. It was more just a general rule/practice.

[nilbog]

So I think it comes down to deciding which NPCs had the ability to add in-agro range players to their hate list when they are already agro on someone else. Do you have any specific examples? Examples of NPCs who would "scan the area" even if already engaged, and add nearby bystanders to their agro radius?

I've stated my opinion in the other thread, but I would begin by adding the 'undead aggro' for npcs which scowl to all to start with. Sand giants, werewolves, spectres, most undead, etc. From there, could additionally add known npcs which do provide faction hits that behaved in the same manner.

For example, I think everyone agrees that skeletons would behave in this manner. However, undead frogs in guk do not, despite being undead. I believe this is because they have an actual faction, instead of general kos.

Definitely worth discussing. Some preliminary work was done to add this mechanic, which currently should be functioning on spectres in oasis. That is the only npc we flagged for testing as of yet.

[Iumuno]

On raid mob pulls, we had to stand.

Extremely evident when we would pull Vindicator and people would be not paying attention or just didn't stand... they would get the splat treatment.

Vindicator certainly is not undead :).




You're totally right, I remember more examples of this now. But I also remember walking past engaged mobs in some dungeons "knowing" I would not be added to the hate list. So it definitely was mob-specific behavior.

[Sundawg]

I think we understand how "undead agro" works, but I think this thread is asking about something above and beyond that (correct me if I'm wrong OP).

I personally could not find a NPC that would actively and continuously "scan" for new, passive, agro targets while already engaged with some other PC. At least outside of the raids/planes.

[Nirgon]

Yeah this goes beyond the undead aggro but uses that mechanic that Kanras created (ability to add to hate list by proxy).

A proof of concept would be..
1. if you could res a player next to a freshly pulled (throw a stick at it) scareling, for example, in plane of fear that would turn and attack/probably kill the freshly rezzed player with them taking no other action.

2. Another would be a shaman pulls Derakor with malo past a sitting player that Derakor scowls @... who gets stomped on.

Currently 1 & 2 don't happen here.


I believe this is because they have an actual faction, instead of general kos.


Yeah they'd follow basic aggro rules. Undead I think are "dumber" and will just start attacking whatever comes between them and the target.... following that new target. The factioned NPC will make a determination of hatelist before transferring.

[Skydash]

Yeah this goes beyond the undead aggro but uses that mechanic that Kanras created (ability to add to hate list by proxy).

A proof of concept would be..
1. if you could res a player next to a freshly pulled (throw a stick at it) scareling, for example, in plane of fear that would turn and attack/probably kill the freshly rezzed player with them taking no other action.


I have a silly observation here that might be overlooked?
When you are rezzed into a group killing a mob, wouldn't you have Low HP agro?
Isn't that different then Proximity agro?
Sitting agro in the other example... different then proximity?

I can't recall the exact mechanisms after 14 years, but shouldn't we have it "Make sense" instead of just hacking on code to make broken mechanics?

[koros]

They definitely may have changed the zones/code many times by now on eqlive, but then again they may not have. Perhaps it would be worth testing in old zones?

[Furniture]

I have a silly observation here that might be overlooked?
When you are rezzed into a group killing a mob, wouldn't you have Low HP agro?
Isn't that different then Proximity agro?
Sitting agro in the other example... different then proximity?

I can't recall the exact mechanisms after 14 years, but shouldn't we have it "Make sense" instead of just hacking on code to make broken mechanics?


It makes perfect sense. Don't res a player next to a mob, ever. Drag it away if you need to res during a fight.



I also am 100% in support of this change as it is one of the most non classic things about this server.

[Furniture]

By the way I don't remember there being certain exceptions for different mobs.

I just recall that back in the day mobs will add you to the hate list once you get in aggro range and come back for you if whoever pulled the mob zoned out or something. As for undead I also recall undead mobs would also add you to the hate list but no matter what they would always go for whoever was closest, similar to root aggro.

[Nirgon]

I have a silly observation here that might be overlooked?
When you are rezzed into a group killing a mob, wouldn't you have Low HP agro?
Isn't that different then Proximity agro?
Sitting agro in the other example... different then proximity?


You would be rezzed next to mob and added by proximity aggro.

It would determine that you are low hp and assign that threat value, if the other players on its threat list were lower than that value... yes it would attack you.

Its kind of a combination of things, but the 2 proofs I listed of pulling Derakor with Malo and getting rezzed in near a freshly pulled hateful mob would solve it.

Undead, yes, behave like root aggro by attacking the closest thing. However, if multiple entities are in melee range of a "stupid" undead (aka not factioned frog), it will make a standard determination of which is/are pets or have the highest hate and go from there. Once there are no mobs in melee range, an unfactioned "stupid" undead will go for the highest threat target or "train" if a player gets in the way. Stupid undead mobs are a special case. If I have a 1/2 hp skeleton and am fleeing from it to the Neriak town front, it will train on a player. If I have a 1/2 hp factioned npc, and flee to the town front, it should only add entities (players and npcs) to its hate list along the way and not immediately train.

I think Nilbog and co are familiar with what I'm explaining here and what I mean.

If not, ask. I'm pretty certain upon reading back what I've gotten here + the 2 cases that are not true here atm we have something solid to implement.

[Skydash]

It makes perfect sense. Don't res a player next to a mob, ever. Drag it away if you need to res during a fight.
I also am 100% in support of this change as it is one of the most non classic things about this server.

I'm indifferent to the change, but just wanted clarification as to what was being talked about. Until recently a mob would ignore all hate lists and attack the under 20% health player here, which would be a freshly rezzed person too.

I didn't mean this change wouldn't make sense, I'm simply saying that it should be thought out and discussed, if the exact mechanic cannot be remembered and duplicated then a newly thought out one should replace a /hack.

[Skydash]

My point is, you may be asking them to implement bugs not fixes.
The eq designers had to make significant changes to NPC aggro after Velious had already been out for three months.

Heres what I found:
Velious goes live in December of 2000, then three months later in Feb 2001 : NPC Aggro is significantly retuned (Feb. 21)

Here is a snip from the Patch Notes (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010221a.html) :
"We've also re-evaluated ways that players have to reduce their own hate. While spells in place to allow this are OK, the Evade skill (possessed by rogues) let them out of their damage too easily. A rogue that successfully evaded would immediately drop to a level of hate lower than someone who was in the awareness range, but hadn't done anything to really upset the creature such as damage it or heal its foe. This problem was exacerbated by the increase of the size of the hate list implemented with Velious."

And the next patch (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010306.html):
"Fixed a bug that would cause NPCs to add too much "temporary hate" when a player would sit down in front of them."

So the sitting down in front of Vindi, was indeed a bug.

[Nirgon]

Too much temporary hate, fine that I agree with.

Adding no hate at all? I do not agree with.

However that post does prove that they have an awareness range that will automatically add players and it is missing here.

(Skip this part and don't want to turn the thread into another pick and choose classic bugs/balance argument.... but I will address it since you brought it up)
Given that we're keeping item recharging (bug) for its era, shouldn't we add extremely high threat to sitting players? I see the high threat as more of a feature than a bug. Pick and choose was never my strong suit when it came to classic mechanics. However, bugs fixed later I'm absolutely willing to be swayed by. I don't think item recharging should be in because it wasn't extremely wide spread/well known during Kunark but here every raiding character (COMPETENT RAIDING CHARACTER) has a WC gate cap. I'd be interested to see if a player here pulls something with malo, you throw a single thrown dagger at it and sit down... what happens. That is about what I would expect the behavior to be when this is fixed.

Likely case we'd see here: Keep the item recharging? Keep the max hate on sit.
Case I'd like to see: Ditch item recharging. Keep max hate on sit.

Just being overt regarding my feelings rather than leaving people to read between the lines :).

At any rate... you aren't added to a mob's hate list when they are in your awareness range and aggro to another player... which again, is the problem.

As far as sitting aggro: sitting aggro should be sitting aggro... a static value that is removed when a player stands. It should be the same amount added whether the player is just in the awareness range without having touched the mob or if they are in a group, assist on the mob and sit down.

That said, "safe to take res?" and "inc everyone stand" is a very classic part of EQ to me.

[Nirgon]

Oh... one more thing.

This proximity thing is going to be necessary for things like rampage mechanics in Velious.

So.. yeah :P.

King Tormax without rampage on KOS targets who are standing around and yet to hit him would be sad :(.

Source (http://www.members.shaw.ca/slapstick/tormax%20log%20file.txt) (yaw its post Velious... doesn't mean rampage didn't exist or was changed..):

[Tue Sep 10 23:57:21 2002] Talthar tells thegerm:2, 'Offtanking Sentinel Sellov, HEALzor me!'
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:28 2002] Talthar goes into a berserker frenzy!
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:36 2002] King Tormax says 'I will bring more glory to the city of Kael Drakkel!'
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:36 2002] Talthar has been slain by King Tormax!
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:36 2002] King Tormax goes on a RAMPAGE!


Notice he is off tanking something else, goes low hp and is slain in a rampage because of low hp aggro.

He is not part of the King Tormaxx tank rotation as proof:

[Tue Sep 10 23:25:03 2002] Shouja tells thegerm:2, 'tank order; Shouja - Harbogast - Bahdd'


Dude is gonna be bringin' a lot less glory without proxxy aggro working if you catch my drift.

[Quineloe]

Some mobs did have proximity agro when already engaged, others ignored proximity agro once they had someone on their hate list. I don't know how you could have forgotten this. You could pull many mobs over people's heads and they wouldn't get attacked, but if you pulled a skeleton past someone who was standing, they'd get agrod and even attacked if your initial pull didn't generate enough threat.

People having to stand on boss pulls? Was pretty much just caution, because it would be such a shitty reason to wipe when wiping meant an hour of recovery and such details weren't exactly well documented back then. So many people didn't even know whether the raid mob they've killed 20 times had proximity agro - it was irrelevant.

[Nirgon]

I'll go with factioned npcs (why else would plane of fear/hate mobs have a faction) will do this for starters. I'd say this with certainty because planar mobs and Vindi both fit this description.

Any other mobs would have to be proven otherwise.

This adds to the feeling that mobs are a little more intelligent and again necessary for rampage mechanics.

[Quineloe]

I'll go with factioned npcs (why else would plane of fear/hate mobs have a faction) will do this for starters. I'd say this with certainty because planar mobs and Vindi both fit this description.

Any other mobs would have to be proven otherwise.

This adds to the feeling that mobs are a little more intelligent and again necessary for rampage mechanics.
I don't think that was the reason, Crushbone orcs have a faction and they did not proximity agro.

[Nirgon]

I didn't xp at all in crush bone on live, ever. So I'll withhold comment on that zone.

However, I do know rezzes in Seb/Fear/Hate/Sky/Tov/Kael/Karnor/PoG we'd be asking a cleric if it was safe, being told when it was not safe etc to take the res. To deny this was ever the case... well how could you forget that much.

It wasn't as specific as just planar or kael mobs, (narrowing down the list) it wasn't just as specific as seb/karnor mobs... so that easily leads me to believe we can start with any factioned NPC given the variables in play.

If we have to narrow it down to planar mobs and npcs with rampage so they will function correctly... I'll even go down that far, fine.

I'm still clinging hard to factioned NPCs. Further, the post above submitted in refutal does prove NPCs had this ability:

level of hate .... in the awareness range, but hadn't done anything to really upset the creature such as damage it or heal its foe.

And the next patch (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010306.html):
"Fixed a bug that would cause NPCs to add too much "temporary hate" when a player would sit down in front of them."

I did sit on a Vindi kill after blowing my mana and Vindi was 30% hp and got killed being lazy on a pug raid. That I would agree was an instance of too much sitting aggro. However, being in the line of the pull and sitting... you should get smoked.

I'm very aware this makes rezzing into hostile fights harder and that functional rampage can be devastating. Sorry for that I guess.

I'd be asking Nilbog or whoever is interested in giving the NPCs a little more brains and getting rampage to work what else they need to prove this, what they are willing to do etc before they will accept what is here as something that needs to be implemented.

[Quineloe]

However, I do know rezzes in Seb/Fear/Hate/Sky/Tov/Kael/Karnor/PoG we'd be asking a cleric if it was safe, being told when it was not safe etc to take the res. To deny this was ever the case... well how could you forget that much.

No one is disputing this. However, there seems to be a claim by some people that every mob should behave that way.

[Nirgon]

Some people being me.. I'd claim every factioned npc with the exception being "few that don't" as opposed to "few that do".


I'd also be curious to know how Fansy's (excuse to link this http://www.notacult.com/fansy2.htm) sand giant trains were possible (they happened) given what some people are saying.


My buddy LJ scampered out just in time. The ogres got squished.



[Fri Jul 06 22:41:52 2001] Your feet move faster.
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:55 2001] You shout, 'Welcome, You've Got Mail!'
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] A sand giant slashes Emotionless for 88 points of damage.
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] A sand giant hits Emotionless for 94 points of damage.
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] Emotionless has been slain by a sand giant!
[Fri Jul 06 22:41:58 2001] Your feet move faster.
[Fri Jul 06 22:42:14 2001] You shout, 'Giants love the good guys! Hooray!'



Add giants to current undead script.

Give proxy aggro hate list addition to all factioned NPCs.

[koros]

I gotta agree with you on this one 100%. Although, I have to do a bit more research, I'm pretty sure undead just got a static +proximity aggro modifier. If you took an undead mob to 97% and ran it by someone, it would aggro on them. If you took it to 40% and ran it by someone it would still chase you.

I remember many many times having someone run a mob or a group of mobs past me, that were not undead/giants/etc, that would late come kick my ass if they died.

[Nirgon]

Yah that's true and a really good point Koros: if you get enough threat on non-faction undead/giants it wouldn't transfer off until you zoned. You could also snipe aggro off the warrior if you spammed nukes on it.

Definitely has a thresh hold for what "mode" it will go into for non-factioned undead/giant.

I guess much like how "rooted" changes behavior.

Good stuff, but I'd bump that in the Kanras thread or make a new one.

Definitely trying to keep this full steam ahead/solely focused on proxy additions for factioned npcs for now.

[Jaxon]

If proximity aggro places a PC on a NPCs hatelist, it follows that those PCs would receive faction hits upon the mob's death. Was getting a "mystery faction hit" for merely standing close to these NPCs something that ever happened on live during this era?

[Nirgon]

PC wont add to hate list because it fails faction check.

No way to take a faction hit if you aren't on hate list.

[koros]

PC wont add to hate list because it fails faction check.

No way to take a faction hit if you aren't on hate list.

Doesn't make sense Nirgon. If you can get aggro/remembered by the mob via someone running it by you, then you'd definitely be on the hate list.

[Nirgon]

Yes it does.

If a mob is ally faction to me.

Someone who attacked it or is scowled at by it runs it by.

It passes me (ally) and says "do I add to hate list?" it decides "no" because it likes me and I didn't heal/buff the player running by or touch it (do something to add myself to its hate list).

Then it runs by you (scowl also) and says "do I add to hate list?" and it decides "yes" because it hates you.

Once it has added you to its hate list, it decides what to do from there.


Then you realize that someone who is not KOS with King Tormaxx should not get slain by a King Tormaxx rampage.

You feels me?

Or where are you confused? Like if a mob scowls at you, is run by and then killed before you get out of the zone?

[Jaxon]

Like if a mob scowls at you, is run by and then killed before you get out of the zone?

Yeah this is what I was referring to. Was there a distinction on live between hate for proximity and hate for a hostile action such that hate for proximity would not give faction hits? Was there no distinction?

[NotKringe]

Gotta say reading thru this that Nirgon is 100% correct... When raiding we ALL the time had to ask if it was safe for resses as stated. Would be the funniest shit ever someone taking a res like (Gyno) ressed in and getting insta gib in several of the zones he mentioned above.

[baalzy]

Some people being me.. I'd claim every factioned npc with the exception being "few that don't" as opposed to "few that do".


I'd also be curious to know how Fansy's (excuse to link this http://www.notacult.com/fansy2.htm) sand giant trains were possible (they happened) given what some people are saying.






Add giants to current undead script.

Give proxy aggro hate list addition to all factioned NPCs.

I didn't even know there could be that many SGs up in Oasis.

[Nirgon]

I didn't even know there could be that many SGs up in Oasis.

We went over that with Nilbog, it is possible here too.


As far as the faction hit, by proxy wasn't enough to do the job.

Reason for this: when we did faction groups, AFK people couldn't just sit there and suck in faction.

So that's a good point to make.

[Nirgon]

Bump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnAMDg7IVWs)

[Haynar]

After next patch, be careful sitting.

H

[Mac Dretti]

Eggselent

[Mac Dretti]

We should all thank Fansy <Flowers of Happiness> for his extensive documentation on the subject matter

[Nirgon]

After next patch, be careful sitting.

H

Real boss here