An Introduction to Rules Lawyering

[mefdinkins]

Good Afternoon Everyone,

I'd like to present everyone with an introduction to Rules Lawyering and a common lesson that is used from high school debate classes to legal writing courses in law schools. The lesson is called 'No Vehicles in the Park.' This lesson will demonstrate the challenges facing the staff in making 'definitive rules' and may help you rules lawyer your way into claiming that camp you always dreamed of.

This lesson centers on the 'rule' NO VEHICLES IN THE PARK. The rule seems simple enough. However, while discussing it we will gain a better understanding of judicial decision making and legislative interpretation.

No Vehicles in the Park

The town of Kelethin has established a beautiful park in Greater Fay. The city council wished to preserve some elements of nature, undisturbed by city noise, traffic, pollution, and crowding. It is a place where citizens can go and find grass, trees, flowers, and quiet. In addition, there are playground and picnic areas. At all entrances to the park the following sign has been posted: "No Vehicles in the Park."

Although the law/sign seems clear some disputes have arisen over the interpretation of the law. Please interpret the law in the cases that follow, keeping in mind the letter of the law as well as the intent of the law.

Case 1 - An ambulance has a Crushbone train victim in it and is racing to the nearest cleric. The shortest route is through the park.

Case 2 - Some little gnomes are sick of Mino Hero killing them in Steamfont and want to ride their bikes through the safer GFay playground.

Case 3 - Some retired senior citizen Veterans from the war on Sol B enjoy the park but can only travel through it on motorized scooters.

Case 4 - A druid grounds keeper has been driving through the park in his truck / cherry picker for the last ten years, it allows him to trim the highest reaching trees and keep the park clean.

Case 5 - An enchanter drives his ice cream slash clarity slash crack truck into the parks and parks near some benches to sell crack/ice cream.

Determine if each case is a rule violation or not. Consider the letter of the law and the purpose of the law while making a decision. If the law needs to be changed consider altering the 'rule' and what impact the alteration would have on other cases.

Thanks,
Mef/Snooch

[Estolcles]

Does this mean Unrest is the slums just outside of town?

[slappytwotoes]

Case 1 - Violation in both letter and spirit. Endangers those who walk along the roads especially as there is an expectation created that no vehicles are allowed, emergency or otherwise.

Case 2 - Violation unclear. Does vehicles mean bicycles? Usually not in my personal experience. If so then sign should have a 'no bicycles' symbol beneath it too.

Case 3 - See Case 2, replace bicycles with wheelchairs.

Case 4 - Violates in letter but not spirit. Park maintenance vehicles are necessary in the park and usually exempt in my experience. Staff make sure tohonor the spirit of the law and not spoil the serenity or endanger pedestrians.

Case 5 - A violation in both letter and spirit unless the park has granted him an exemption similar to park maintenance. If so, then see Case 4.

You're welcome for doing your homework for you

[Kagatob]

http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/4053/53/16x9/640.jpg
Kill the lawyers.

[mefdinkins]

Case 1 - Violation in both letter and spirit. Endangers those who walk along the roads especially as there is an expectation created that no vehicles are allowed, emergency or otherwise.

Case 2 - Violation unclear. Does vehicles mean bicycles? Usually not in my personal experience. If so then sign should have a 'no bicycles' symbol beneath it too.

Case 3 - See Case 2, replace bicycles with wheelchairs.

Case 4 - Violates in letter but not spirit. Park maintenance vehicles are necessary in the park and usually exempt in my experience. Staff make sure tohonor the spirit of the law and not spoil the serenity or endanger pedestrians.

Case 5 - A violation in both letter and spirit unless the park has granted him an exemption similar to park maintenance. If so, then see Case 4.

You're welcome for doing your homework for you

Case 1 - you wouldn't allow any exceptions? safety vehicles are allowed to speed and go through red lights, why not travel through this park? If you would punish someone for going through to save a life how would you punish them? Fine? jail time?

Case 2 - how would you change the rule so people knew no bicycles? would you change the rule to no 'motorized vehicles?'? then how would the motorized scooter below be allowed?

Case 3 - if the motorized scooter isn't considered a vehicle could people ride Vespas, Segways, or mini bikes?

Case 4 - so this vehicle is allowed? why can't someone w/ a ladder do it? doesn't the vehicle itself constitute an ugly/disturbance?

Case 5 - why can't he sell things off the premises? is it a vehicle or is it a food stand? why is he allowed? are food carts allowed if they have wheels but no engines? why would 4/5 be exceptions? do they need a pass to get an exception? do they need a permit?

[Swish]

Good Afternoon Everyone,

I'd like to present everyone with an introduction to Rules Lawyering and a common lesson that is used from high school debate classes to legal writing courses in law schools. The lesson is called 'No Vehicles in the Park.' This lesson will demonstrate the challenges facing the staff in making 'definitive rules' and may help you rules lawyer your way into claiming that camp you always dreamed of.

This lesson centers on the 'rule' NO VEHICLES IN THE PARK. The rule seems simple enough. However, while discussing it we will gain a better understanding of judicial decision making and legislative interpretation.

No Vehicles in the Park

The town of Kelethin has established a beautiful park in Greater Fay. The city council wished to preserve some elements of nature, undisturbed by city noise, traffic, pollution, and crowding. It is a place where citizens can go and find grass, trees, flowers, and quiet. In addition, there are playground and picnic areas. At all entrances to the park the following sign has been posted: "No Vehicles in the Park."

Although the law/sign seems clear some disputes have arisen over the interpretation of the law. Please interpret the law in the cases that follow, keeping in mind the letter of the law as well as the intent of the law.

Case 1 - An ambulance has a Crushbone train victim in it and is racing to the nearest cleric. The shortest route is through the park.

Case 2 - Some little gnomes are sick of Mino Hero killing them in Steamfont and want to ride their bikes through the safer GFay playground.

Case 3 - Some retired senior citizen Veterans from the war on Sol B enjoy the park but can only travel through it on motorized scooters.

Case 4 - A druid grounds keeper has been driving through the park in his truck / cherry picker for the last ten years, it allows him to trim the highest reaching trees and keep the park clean.

Case 5 - An enchanter drives his ice cream slash clarity slash crack truck into the parks and parks near some benches to sell crack/ice cream.

Determine if each case is a rule violation or not. Consider the letter of the law and the purpose of the law while making a decision. If the law needs to be changed consider altering the 'rule' and what impact the alteration would have on other cases.

Thanks,
Mef/Snooch

Too cryptic... what's this crap about bikes/playgrounds/etc? Give us some actual situations in EQ if you're going to try this angle :)

[radditsu]

http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/4053/53/16x9/640.jpg
Kill the lawyers.

RUFIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[myriverse]

No vehicles of any kind for any reason!

1. That ambulance doesn't need access. EMTs get out and hoof it through the park to whatever poor sod is hurt.
2. No bikes! They're just as bad as the motor vehicles.
3. No vehicles for old people or gimped. They don't need parks. Parks are for the young and playful!
4. No maintenance vehicles! Lazy cherry picker can hoof it with a ladder. And you don't need a truck to pick up the garbage.
5. No commercialism in the park! EVER! Violators will be nuked. You too, little Miss Girly Scout.

And everybody else, STFU! I'm trying to listen to the birds.

[Laok]

I would start a petition for city hall to change the sign to read "No unauthorized motor vehicles allowed in the park."

This solves everything.

[mefdinkins]

How do you define 'unauthorized motor vehicles"? Under Case 1-5 which ones would have been allowed?

[Laok]

Emergency vehicles and park service vehicles. One would be expected to know if one is driving an authorized vehicle.

"Did someone tell you you could drive your Vespa in the park?"
"No..."
"Then you can't drive your Vespa in the park."

[Derubael]

Case 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5:

Banned without parole or chance for a Stealin appeal.

[Laok]

The signs on the highway turn-arounds say "authorized vehicles only" no other explanation needed.

[mefdinkins]

Emergency vehicles and park service vehicles. One would be expected to know if one is driving an authorized vehicle.

"Did someone tell you you could drive your Vespa in the park?"
"No..."
"Then you can't drive your Vespa in the park."

No one told that old gnome he could drive an electric motorized scooter through the park either? Is that legal? It would be a 'motorized vehicle'? The electric motor is small/quiet, it shouldn't disturb anyone, it's unlikely he would run over people walking/playing in the park like a car could.

[Laok]

Did he get special dispensation from city hall? No? Then his scooter is not authorized.

He would know if he is authorized. Likely the park rangers would have permits and stop people with unauthorized vehicles and either force them to leave or buy a permit thus becoming authorized.

[mefdinkins]

Case 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5:

Banned without parole or chance for a Stealin appeal.

hahah can you confiscate the clarity/ice cream truck for being used during the commission of a crime and give the items/buffs to me!?

[drktmplr12]

what happens if the tree trimmer wants the enchanter to give him icecream, but doesnt want to leave the park? Can he authorize the vehicle?

[Laok]

what happens if the tree trimmer wants the enchanter to give him icecream, but doesnt want to leave the park? Can he authorize the vehicle?

Is the tree trimmer city hall? No...

The tree trimmer needs to take his lazy ass to the park zone line and get his damn icecream.

[mefdinkins]

You do realize that all these arguments you're making would be laughed at in court right? If i was a judge, and someone came into my court room, trying to turn around the laws like your spinning everything, i would find them guilty just on the fact of their own ignorance.

Perissh, I'm not trying to spin anything. I'm asking you to make a decision based on some different scenarios that could give rise to controversies then I'm asking you why you would make that decision. That is the learning exercise.

There are many different methods of judicial interpretation some judges (and perhaps you) would be called 'textualists' they would look specifically to the text of a rule and a dictionary and then enforce the rule as is. This method has benefits including simplicity: read the rule, enforce it. This method of judicial interpretation puts a lot of onus on the people drafting laws/rules to make sure it is clear and fair. However, this method also has been criticized and some people say can be used to justify unfair judicial decisions, it also creates problems when rules are ambiguous.

When judges are unclear about a possible result they may use other canons of construction to determine how to interpret a rule. One canon suggests that you should interpret a rule to avoid absurdity or a manifestly unfair decision. Certainly a textualist could see an electric wheelchair (w/ a motor) as a 'motorized vehicle. However, a judge may view the laws and determine that it is manifestly unfair (and possibly violative of other rules/laws) to prevent an individual with a motorized wheelchair from entering the park. In that case, the judge would make a ruling that the term "unauthorized motor vehicles" does not include motorized wheelchairs.

[Laok]

The first time this situation arose, the judge would probably either, declare that all motorized wheelchairs operated by a handicapped individual were authorized, or set up a system for permitting wheelchairs so that they become authorized on an individual basis.

If I'm the ranger or cop, depending on my mood, I'm either looming the other way (and setting a precedent), or I'm enforcing the letter of the law.

[Laok]

Looking*

[drktmplr12]

Is the tree trimmer city hall? No...

The tree trimmer needs to take his lazy ass to the park zone line and get his damn icecream.

but he really wants the ice cream and no one is looking

[mefdinkins]

Loak those are all great suggestions and possible solutions. It's important to weigh the pros/cons of different approaches, including things like judicial efficiency and managing resources.

All in all, everyone's contributions have been constructive and well thought out! It definitely highlights some of the difficulty the staff is facing now when everything is contentiously 'rules lawyered' and many characters seek clarifications on rules!

[Laok]

Loak those are all great suggestions and possible solutions. It's important to weigh the pros/cons of different approaches, including things like judicial efficiency and managing resources.

All in all, everyone's contributions have been constructive and well thought out! It definitely highlights some of the difficulty the staff is facing now when everything is contentiously 'rules lawyered' and many characters seek clarifications on rules!

Clarifying rules is a part of living in a society with rules. That's the job of the judicial system. Someone gets arrested by a cop following the letter of the law, a judge determines the intent of the law and sets a precedent, effectively changing (or clarifying) the law.

[Laok]

But, that being said, this isn't a democracy. This is a game run by a couple dudes in their spare time that they share with us. They can, at any time, take their ball and go home. I've been in their shoes and you have no idea how hard it is to keep going sometimes. Doing it for free, for the love of the game and getting shit on. Sometimes you have to step back and realize that its just the vocal minority and the majority loves your work, but that vocal minority is loud and the thanks are quiet and pretty scarce.