Here's your chance to influence LnS

[Derubael]

Small Scale PvP

Small scale is defined as any engagement involving any group of players numbering 6 or less on one side. A group is defined as one or more players united by a common goal. Being 'grouped' with the in-game grouping mechanic is not relevant to this definition.

An engagement is defined as any time a player is killed by a group.

If you are killed in small scale PvP, you may choose to Loot and Scoot if you call LnS in a zone-wide or global channel. You may call Loot and Scoot in any zone after respawning from death so long as you head straight for your corpse. If you need to move across multiple zones in order to Loot and Scoot, you must call LnS as you move through each zone. If a new player enters the zone, you must call Loot and Scoot so they are aware of your intentions. You may not be killed, attacked, or attacked while Loot and Scooting. After retrieving your corpse, you are allowed a short amount of time to med and memorize spells, and then must leave the zone immediately for 1 hour. This is not an excuse to sit and 'talk trash' or fight mobs. You must med/mem up and leave. If you are killed and opt to fight instead of calling Loot and Scoot, you may not call LnS later on, and forfeit any rights to not be corpse camped. If you log out you may return in 1 hour and call Loot and Scoot.

You can only ever have one zone lockout active per group of players at any time. If a fight occurred across multiple zones, the winning group picks which zone the lockout will apply to.


Large Scale PvP

Large scale is defined as any engagement involving any group of players numbering 7 or more on one side. A group is defined as one or more players united by a common goal. Being 'grouped' with the in-game grouping mechanic is not relevant to this definition.

An engagement is defined as any time a player is killed by a group.

In large scale PvP, you MUST Loot and Scoot. However, Loot and Scoot must be called by a single person from the losing side after the engagement is over. The engagement is over when a representative from the losing side calls Loot and Scoot. If you die in large scale PvP you must stay away from the engagement and you may not receive a res until after the fight is over. Wait at the zone-line or outside the zone until your representative has called Loot and Scoot. Players waiting for Loot and Scoot to be called may be killed while waiting for loot and scoot, but may not fight back or cast beneficial spells on those still engaged in PvP. Thus, it is wise to stay far from any engagements or outside the zone if necessary after you have died.


Once Loot and Scoot has been called, the losing side will move in and loot as a group. The representative calling Loot and Scoot for the losing side is expected to make it clear they are calling Loot and Scoot (IE, spam it if needed). There will be a 30 second 'grace period' after Loot and Scoot has been called where the two sides engaged in PvP are expected to break off their engagement and stop fighting. The losing side may begin Looting and Scooting during or after this 'grace period' but may still be killed in the 30 second grace period without repercussion. After Loot and Scoot has been enacted, players on either side may not be killed or attacked. They are allowed to cast res's, and are allowed to have a short time to med and memorize spells before they must leave the zone. This is not an excuse to 'talk trash' or fight mobs. You must med/mem/rez up and leave. If there are players from the losing side outside the zone when Loot and Scoot is called, they must apply the rules for crossing zones to get to their corpse outlined in the Small Scale PvP section. The winning side is encouraged to assist in this process, particularly in more dangerous zones, but is not required to do so. Once the last person of the losing side has left the zone, they may not return for 1 hour from the time the last person exits the zone.

If a group leaves a zone completely during an engagement in large scale pvp to enter a zone where PvP has not occurred during that engagement, and the opposing group does not pursue, the exiting group is considered to have called LnS in the zone they have left.

You can only ever have one zone lockout active per group of players at any time. If a fight occurred across multiple zones, the winning group picks which zone the lockout will apply to.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the TL;DR

It all seems complicated on paper, but in practice, it equates to this:

Small scale: You can either call loot and scoot, or forfeit all rights by not calling it.

Large scale: Once you die in PvP, you can't fight or help the fight. 1 side must call LnS, at which point they have to leave. if your whole group enters a zone that hasn't had pvp and the opposing group does not pursue, you are calling lns by default

Large & small: If pvp happened across more than one zone, winning side picks which zone losing side must leave.

This is, as far as I can tell, the best way to do this. I'm posting this for feedback, let's get some constructive comments going.

[Tune]

WOOOOOW

saying spot will reply later

[Kinamara]

Sounds good, except pvp res should be allowed and then that player could continue to fight if he doesn't ask for LNS. It's a nerf to res classes if you cannot res players.

Great improvement, thanks for that.

Please lift the bans from the people that received permabans from previous rules and we should be good to go.

[Tradesonred]

Are you guys gonna make a 64 page PDF file called "how to not get banned on Red99" with all the rules and regulations of the server, complete with illustrated scenarios framed in green (good) and red (banned). It should be mandatory reading before even creating a character.

You guys could have a test before the player is white listed, sorta like the one you take to pass your drivers license. Between 45 and 75 questions i think could give you a good assessment if the player is ready or not to start killing rats in Freeport.

[Derubael]

If it's too hard for you to read and follow 3 simple paragraphs, you can go play Hooked on Phonics, the video game. This isn't and never will be SZ. If you want to play SZ, go make your own box.

[Tradesonred]

Oh yeah? OH YEAH?

[Gaffin 3.0]

lawl anyone want my 52 cleric?

[Rellapse36]

I agree with these rules. PvP rez should not be allowed

[Goobles]

A SURRENDER option should be given. If SURRENDER is called, all pvp in that zone will cease, and corpse runs will be uninterrupted (even if you didn't die). The SURRENDERING guild has 15 minutes to rez up and leave zone.

[k9quaint]

What defines when a fight is over?
Example: a large-scale fight breaks out at Karnor's / Dreadlands zoneline where each side takes deaths and neither side calls Loot and Scoot. One side holds Dreadlands and the other side holds Karnor's. When are people allowed to rez?

[Tradesonred]

Pretty classy to subtly call me an idiot instead of trying to convince me that my position (which i tried to present humourously) is wrong. Insult is the last refuge of scoundrels etc... You can have your thread now im not trying to derail it.

[Not_Kazowi]

What defines when a fight is over?
Example: a large-scale fight breaks out at Karnor's / Dreadlands zoneline where each side takes deaths and neither side calls Loot and Scoot. One side holds Dreadlands and the other side holds Karnor's. When are people allowed to rez?

When one of the forces calls LNS. Then they can rez and go.

VZTZ we would fight over a mob until one side gave up. I think we had to defend Plane of Fear outnumbered by 30 fishbait until they finally stopped bind rushing and called LNS.

[Musetii]

When one of the forces calls LNS. Then they can rez and go.

VZTZ we would fight over a mob until one side gave up. I think we had to defend Plane of Fear outnumbered by 30 fishbait until they finally stopped bind rushing and called LNS.

The good days...

[Liten]

So when a guild leader calls LnS for a guild, even the people that has not yet been downed are offlimits for the other guild?

/mysig

[Derubael]

Sounds good, except pvp res should be allowed and then that player could continue to fight if he doesn't ask for LNS. It's a nerf to res classes if you cannot res players.


I agree that not being able to res players mid fight in a large scale battle kind of sucks, but this is to prevent 20 hour long endurance fights between large groups of people. If you win, you win, if you lose, you lose and gtfo.

A SURRENDER option should be given. If SURRENDER is called, all pvp in that zone will cease, and corpse runs will be uninterrupted (even if you didn't die). The SURRENDERING guild has 15 minutes to rez up and leave zone.

That's basically the way it works with this rule set, minus the 15 minute timer.

The idea behind allowing players who have already been killed be killed again without being able to fight back is so that if someone decides they don't want to follow the rules and runs into the middle of a fight and there's not a CSR there to see it, people can actually do something about it without getting punished. It's also so that you sneaky fucks (I'm looking at you, Red Dawn) can't sit back and heal/buff their players when a CSR isn't around and claim they are under protection. If anyone gets caught by a CSR or fraps'd healing/buffing/attacking after they've been killed in mass PvP, they will get disciplined.


You guys wanted clearer, easier to follow, more flexible rules, and separate definitions for large and small scale PvP. I think this does that nicely. None of this is set in stone, that's why it's posted here for feedback.

[k9quaint]

So if the other side is waiting in the adjacent zone, the fight continues?
What defines zone control?

Example: If we initiate a fight in Plane of Fear (some deaths occur), then all zone out to Feerrott, does that mean the people in PoF cannot rez their dead until one side declares LNS even though neither side has the intention of doing so? Can we just sit in Feerrott all night blocking folks from rezzing in PoF because the fight has not been resolved?

[Derubael]

Added

If a fight occurred across multiple zones, the winning group picks which zone the lockout will apply to.

To cover situations where PvP crosses zones.

[Derubael]

So if the other side is waiting in the adjacent zone, the fight continues?
What defines zone control?

Example: If we initiate a fight in Plane of Fear (some deaths occur), then all zone out to Feerrott, does that mean the people in PoF cannot rez their dead until one side declares LNS even though neither side has the intention of doing so? Can we just sit in Feerrott all night blocking folks from rezzing in PoF because the fight has not been resolved?

If the people in PoF wanted to get their corpses, they would need to call LnS or zone into Feerrott and kill enough of the other side to force them to call LnS.

[Terpuntine]

no pvp rez's until one side concedes the fight.

[k9quaint]

Added



To cover situations where PvP crosses zones.

What governs stalemates in large scale PvP? Both sides take deaths, both sides occupy a zone adjacent to each other. Neither side is willing to declare LNS. Are rezzes and corpse runs still denied to both sides?

[Kergan]

Common sense would dictate if you completely vacate a zone it is no longer contested. Your dead players would need to ask for LNS to rez, but the force still in Fear could rez their dead.

[Kergan]

What governs stalemates in large scale PvP? Both sides take deaths, both sides occupy a zone adjacent to each other. Neither side is willing to declare LNS. Are rezzes and corpse runs still denied to both sides?

The engagement is over when a representative from the losing side calls Loot and Scoot.

If nobody calls LNS then it isn't over.

[Giovanni]

I think it those are good ideas. However, a hard coded solution that does not tie up staff resources to police would help reduce gray areas.

For instance, respawn at the priest of discord in your home city when slain in pvp with 15-60 mins of pvp res effects that wear off gradually over that time period. Could even add drunk effects for the first few minutes or give a small chance for a reduced the timer to make it more interesting.

Remove ability for characters to be bound in raid zones.

Note that that would only apply to characters in range to lvl 60 pvp.

Some players on this server have demonstrated that they take their pixels a little too seriously, and staff interaction is often viewed negatively even when they are trying to help promote a healthy play environment. This solution avoids breaking the third wall by hard coding loot and scoot mechanics into regular gameplay.

[Kinamara]

I think overall the changes are really good. To me EQ pvp is also about outlasting - perhaps I just don't agree with the concept of "ending pvp fast" on a pvp server.

[k9quaint]

Common sense would dictate if you completely vacate a zone it is no longer contested. Your dead players would need to ask for LNS to rez, but the force still in Fear could rez their dead.

Example: fight at Karnor's / Dreadlands zoneline, large scale

So if Karnor's is ever entirely devoid of Nihilum (even for one second), that would allow Red Dawn to rez inside the Karnor's zone. Even if Nihilum zones back in from Dreadlands and continues the fight immediately? Conversely, if one Red Dawn bard is running around in Dreadlands does that mean no Nihilum can rez in Dreadlands until that bard is chased out? That situation could go on for days, something the GMs are trying to avoid.

I am just hoping to get clear rulings on common examples of PvP.

No offfense Kergan, but your opinion on the application of the rules is irrelevant. It only matters what Derubael thinks the resolution should be.

[Kergan]

I think it those are good ideas. However, a hard coded solution that does not tie up staff resources to police would help reduce gray areas.

For instance, respawn at the priest of discord in your home city when slain in pvp with 15-60 mins of pvp res effects that wear off gradually over that time period. Could even add drunk effects for the first few minutes or give a small chance for a reduced the timer to make it more interesting.

Remove ability for characters to be bound in raid zones.

Some players on this server have demonstrated that they take their pixels a little too seriously, and staff interaction is often viewed negatively even when they are trying to help promote a healthy play environment. This solution avoids breaking the third wall by hard coding loot and scoot mechanics into regular gameplay.

Although I agree conceptually, what happens when a level 26 shaman solo'ing in Rathe Mts gets pk'd by some supertwink. Let's say it is a barbarian and he is bound at NFP bank. That's a hell of a punishment having to run back to CR.

We have to be careful not to propose a solution that works in a 30v30 but doesn't work for low to mid level groups or even low 50s exp groups.

[Derubael]

Common sense would dictate if you completely vacate a zone it is no longer contested. Your dead players would need to ask for LNS to rez, but the force still in Fear could rez their dead.

Hadn't thought of this. Added:

If a group leaves a zone completely during an engagement and the opposing group does not pursue, the exiting group is considered to have called LnS in the zone they have left.

[Kergan]

Example: fight at Karnor's / Dreadlands zoneline, large scale

So if Karnor's is ever entirely devoid of Nihilum (even for one second), that would allow Red Dawn to rez inside the Karnor's zone. Even if Nihilum zones back in from Dreadlands and continues the fight immediately? Conversely, if one Red Dawn bard is running around in Dreadlands does that mean no Nihilum can rez in Dreadlands until that bard is chased out? That situation could go on for days, something the GMs are trying to avoid.

I am just hoping to get clear rulings on common examples of PvP.

Yep, I can see how that could become an issue. If we're going to rely on one side giving up this is going to come up quite a bit.

[Giovanni]

Although I agree conceptually, what happens when a level 26 shaman solo'ing in Rathe Mts gets pk'd by some supertwink. Let's say it is a barbarian and he is bound at NFP bank. That's a hell of a punishment having to run back to CR.

We have to be careful not to propose a solution that works in a 30v30 but doesn't work for low to mid level groups or even low 50s exp groups.

Can have the res effects only apply to lvl 52+ characters.

[Kergan]

Hadn't thought of this. Added:

It might help to define when a zone is in a contested state, as that pretty much signals that all of the rules would be in effect.

The example k9 brought up about a single bard locking down rezzes in a particular zone by refusing to LNS would be a potential griefing point. Maybe define contested as PVP is being actively engaged? At least if the bard has to come up and cast on the opposing force they have a very high chance of being raptured/pelled and then killed.

[Derubael]

Changed:

If a group leaves a zone completely during an engagement and the opposing group does not pursue, the exiting group is considered to have called LnS in the zone they have left

To:

If a group leaves a zone completely during an engagement to enter a zone where PvP has not occurred during that engagement, and the opposing group does not pursue, the exiting group is considered to have called LnS in the zone they have left.

To be more clear.

[k9quaint]

If a group leaves a zone completely during an engagement and the opposing group does not pursue, the exiting group is considered to have called LnS in the zone they have left.


Is this the correct interpretation:
You drive a group out of a zone. The group that fled is now on LNS (by default) and cannot resume hostilities in the zone until 1 hour after the last person scoots?

[Butthead]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Gongshow]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[Derubael]

In k9's example, it would depend on where that bard came from.

If he was killed in that skirmish, he'd be effectively removed from the fight and wouldn't have any bearing on a group being in a zone, nor would he be able to attack.

If he wasn't killed in that skirmish, what do you guys think? If guild1 is in Sebilis, guild2 zones in, takes a few deaths, guild2 zones out completely, but guild1 has a bard running full speed to go aid in the fight that was happening in Sebilis, should he be considered separate from guild1 (and thus could be killed and then he must loot and scoot and enter seb), or a part of guild1 (guild1 would at that point be 'pursuing' and the engagement would need to be continued until one side called LnS or zoned into EJ)

[Edgat]

If a group leaves a zone completely during an engagement to enter a zone where PvP has not occurred during that engagement, and the opposing group does not pursue, the exiting group is considered to have called LnS in the zone they have left.


No this shouldn't be worded as they are considered to have LnS'd because that would suggest 5 people attacking 10 in kc cant go in kill 2 then zone out cause they couldn't go back for 1 hour after this and would discourage small pvp groups from attempting pvp encounters.

It should just say if you have a force in zone and the opposing force zones and has no remaining presence out but has not called surrender you may rez your people

[Derubael]

It all seems complicated on paper, but in practice, it equates to this:

Small scale: You can either call loot and scoot, or forfeit all rights by not calling it.

Large scale: Once you die in PvP, you can't fight or help the fight. 1 side must call LnS, at which point they have to leave. If pvp happened across more than one zone, winning side picks which zone losing side must leave. if your whole group enters a zone that hasn't had pvp, you are calling lns.

[k9quaint]

I think there needs to be a separate clause to govern stalemates or skirmishes occurring at zonelines that have not boiled into full on PvP.

Zoning in, take a hit, then zoning back out should not constitute declaring LNS and being barred from the zone for 1 hour IMO.

[Liten]

So, we have KC fights every day. Say 3 people from guild A zones in to KC, to fight 7 people from guild B. Guild A zones out, but does not die, they are then on LnS from KC for an hour? and if they zone back they will get punished somehow?

This will kill a lot of fun PvP we have had last two weeks if so. Zoneline are a large part of EQ PvP, i don't always like it, but it's classic as fuck.

[Derubael]

Added the tl;dr

[Derubael]

I think there needs to be a separate clause to govern stalemates or skirmishes occurring at zonelines that have not boiled into full on PvP.

Zoning in, take a hit, then zoning back out should not constitute declaring LNS and being barred from the zone for 1 hour IMO.

So, we have KC fights every day. Say 3 people from guild A zones in to KC, to fight 7 people from guild B. Guild A zones out, but does not die, they are then on LnS from KC for an hour? and if they zone back they will get punished somehow?

This will kill a lot of fun PvP we have had last two weeks if so. Zoneline are a large part of EQ PvP, i don't always like it, but it's classic as fuck.

I agree with this, added:

An engagement is defined as any time a player is killed by a group.

[Liten]

Well take it alittle longer, one of the 3 people die, the other 2 zones out and meet up with another 4 people from guild A. Who can zone back in?

[azo313]

I don't like these rules. Not classic and very far from normal "EverQuest" that we are used to. Why not go back to the original ruleset that this server enjoyed for 2-years? We don't need so much complexities and rules. I appreciate everything the GM's do, but this is too complicated to follow, and too complex to enforce.

[Gongshow]

Small scale: You can either call loot and scoot, or forfeit all rights by not calling it.


Just make this the rule for everything (small scale, and mass) and we have ourselves a winner.

Logical LNS 2014! Halfway there!

[k9quaint]

It would also be useful to have a clear line of escalation with official notification.

Example:
First offense, explicit warning about violation
Second offense, suspension for 3 days
Continuous violations = ban hammer

[Derubael]

Well take it alittle longer, one of the 3 people die, the other 2 zones out and meet up with another 4 people from guild A. Who can zone back in?

nobody until the 1 hr has passed, they are a group of players united in a common goal (ie, beat guild b out of zone001)

[Kinamara]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[Koota]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.
This.

[Thrilla]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[smokin420]

Just make this the rule for everything (small scale, and mass) and we have ourselves a winner.

Logical LNS 2014! Halfway there!

[Koota]

I think Gongshow hit a happy medium with what the staff wants (less bullshit and less griefing) and what the players want (classic pvp). You can do whatever the fuck you want, short of cheating, exploiting, training until that person(s) calls LnS. Its clear, concise, and there is no grey area, which is what all the bitching takes place about.

[Liten]

This is to complicated to be honest. i love that you guys are taking interest in cleaning up the PvP on this server. But i have to agree with Gongshow too. This to much work trying to keep track of this and there will be to many situations where things get grey.

[Jerry]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[Taboo]

Gong show making the most sense here. I'm confused by the rest. His is pretty simple to follow.

[Bokke]

Small Scale PvP

If a group leaves a zone completely during an engagement to enter a zone where PvP has not occurred during that engagement, and the opposing group does not pursue, the exiting group is considered to have called LnS in the zone they have left.



Sorry could you clarify this? Do you mean after youve died and everyone has left the zone and the engagement has ended then LNS is assumed.

Or do you mean during an engagement if you zone at all you're considered to have lost the fight and cannot come back for an hour?

For example if you are fighting a 1v1 and you zone is the fight over? What if some one was to agro a mob and zone the agro.

[k9quaint]

Logical LNS was tried, it didn't work. Nihilum declared it was "confusing" and/or they would not follow it.

Now we have explicit rules to address the "confusion'. But Nihilum want's the old "logical LNS" confusion back.

I think Nihilum will always be "confused" about why they can't grief folks off the server. GMs should make an explicit rule set that is enforceable. Then they should enforce it.

A suggestion for the devs, rez from PVP death should give a debuff that prevents all actions from landing on other players (heals, buffs, rezzes, attacks, etc) for 10 minutes. That would go a long way towards preventing LNS & PvP abuses.

[Mac Dretti]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

Just make this the rule for everything (small scale, and mass) and we have ourselves a winner.

Logical LNS 2014! Halfway there!

[Darksinga]

If we die to a DOT during small scale PvP, but zone and don't get YT'd do we have to LNS from the original zone of PvP?

For example, I'm in Skyfire, I zone to BW at low life, die in BW due to a dot but there's no YT. Do I have to LNS at all? And if so from which zone?

[Herb9]

If it's too hard for you to read and follow 3 simple paragraphs, you can go play Hooked on Phonics, the video game. This isn't and never will be SZ. If you want to play SZ, go make your own box.

All I want to know is who spanked you that you are now considering input? You've abused position, shown terrible incompetence in understanding real pnp vs baiting and rule lawyering, and now you are admitting that the original rules were both poorly reviewed and not at all researched.

You owe anyone you suspended or banned under the previous rules an apology and reprieve.

You should keep your ego in check and pay less attention to server politics, if you wish to give the impression of impartiality.

[Rellapse36]

All I want to know is who spanked you that you are now considering input? You've abused position, shown terrible incompetence in understanding real pnp vs baiting and rule lawyering, and now you are admitting that the original rules were both poorly reviewed and not at all researched.

You owe anyone you suspended or banned under the previous rules an apology and reprieve.

You should keep your ego in check and pay less attention to server politics, if you wish to give the impression of impartiality.

lol nilly

[Bokke]

Just a suggestion, is it necessary to have all the grey area when dealing with zones.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier if a call for LNS from one side means that side can no longer engage who they were fighting for 1 hour, regardless of zones?

[k9quaint]

All I want to know is who spanked you that you are now considering input? You've abused position, shown terrible incompetence in understanding real pnp vs baiting and rule lawyering, and now you are admitting that the original rules were both poorly reviewed and not at all researched.

You owe anyone you suspended or banned under the previous rules an apology and reprieve.

You should keep your ego in check and pay less attention to server politics, if you wish to give the impression of impartiality.

Why hasn't this guild been disbanded for repeated violations of GM & forum rules?

[Silent]

lol nilly

lol red dawn, see i can do it too. You haven't been on red long enough to experience real pvp, you got PL'd straight to 60 and rarely if ever encountered pvp while leveling.

as for LNS rules I agree with gongshows OP

[Rallyd]

Just make this the rule for everything (small scale, and mass) and we have ourselves a winner.

Logical LNS 2014! Halfway there!

This sounds much more simple.

You want LNS? Ask and ye shall receive, no bullshit.

Punishments for LNS offenses NEEEEEED to be black and white, not "whatever the GM decides based on what guild tag you have"

Suggestion : First offense - 3 days suspension. Second offense - 7 days suspension Third offense - 3 strikes your out - 30 days suspension

Players should never ever be banned from a server for a LNS violation, it is a core principle of a pvp server.

[k9quaint]

TPunishments for LNS offenses NEEEEEED to be black and white, not "whatever the GM decides based on what guild tag you have"


Nizzar said this:
We will not let anyone LNS in a zone or any adjacent zone of a raid mob if its coming up anytime soon.

Then GM said this:
Then Nizzar gonna get fuckin banned.

Then Nizzar violated PnP.
Then Nizzar got suspended.
That is pretty black and white that Nizzar should have been banned like the GM said, but I am ok with him showing mercy and changing it to a suspension. :cool:

[Rellapse36]

You haven't been on red long enough to experience real pvp, you got PL'd straight to 60 and rarely if ever encountered pvp while leveling.



ya I just didn't lvl a monk to 60 with no PL moran

[Cyrax>]

Just make this the rule for everything (small scale, and mass) and we have ourselves a winner.

Logical LNS 2014! Halfway there!

Best Option and cant get any Simpler

[k9quaint]

should be a set guideline. violation #1- 3 days, violation 2- 7 days, etc etc.

as of right now, you could mq on the blue server,lose a few levels and be back, but pvp on a red server and kill somebody on lns,permaban.

There should be a warning stage, for players who are back from a break and have encountered the rules, etc. Maybe at GM's discretion, meaning if you got a warning you know you are on the hot seat and should regulate your behavior.

[Rallyd]

No, there can be no GM discretion in enforcement of rules, GM's cannot be put in a position to be bias'ed. This is absolutely unacceptable.

[k9quaint]

No, there can be no GM discretion in enforcement of rules, GM's cannot be put in a position to be bias'ed. This is absolutely unacceptable.

I think everyone understands that you are least likely to receive any discretion from GMs on any issue. Since you are unlikely to benefit from any interaction with GMs you prefer that others get banned instead of warned.

The server would benefit from GMs banning less people and warning more, and I would place the health of the server ahead of satisfying the needs of one angry forumquestor.

[Rallyd]

I think everyone understands that you are least likely to receive any discretion from GMs on any issue. Since you are unlikely to benefit from any interaction with GMs you prefer that others get banned instead of warned.

The server would benefit from GMs banning less people and warning more, and I would place the health of the server ahead of satisfying the needs of one angry forumquestor.

Incorrect, I just said in a previous post nobody should ever get banned for LNS violation. STFU and QFT if you're not retarded.

You want warnings? Fine so do we, but not discretion based, first offense warning? fine got it.

[k9quaint]

Incorrect, I just said in a previous post nobody should ever get banned for LNS violation. STFU and QFT if you're not retarded.

You want warnings? Fine so do we, but not discretion based, first offense warning? fine got it.

When presented a choice between discretion warning and ban, you chose ban because you don't trust the GMs to exercise discretion. I would say if a GM feels a second warning is warranted, I would rather they give it (even to Tune) rather than reach for the ban/suspend hammer. Due to recent events, your guild is highly unlikely to benefit from such discretion but I think over all the server would.

[Gustoo]

How about people have to turn in PVP book to priest of discord?

Just kidding.

Post these rules in the red99 rules section not just in this forum.

[runlvlzero]

I especially like the part about people needing to call it. And the grace period. Seems like were moving the the right direction.

However not much is said about the punishments/severity of punishments for violations (they will happen, even by accident with care). What is the policy for punishment? Will people in trouble for other types of infractions have LnS violations used as the "Last strike?". I know it's commonsense to be careful, not break rules, and get in a situation where a GM feels the need to permaban upon a LnS violation. but it seems like habitual rule breakers who are trying to straighten out and break LnS shouldn't be punished that much.

[Koota]

When presented a choice between discretion warning and ban, you chose ban because you don't trust the GMs to exercise discretion. I would say if a GM feels a second warning is warranted, I would rather they give it (even to Tune) rather than reach for the ban/suspend hammer. Due to recent events, your guild is highly unlikely to benefit from such discretion but I think over all the server would.

You have, on more than one occasion in this thread, directed your posts or input purely with the guild you don't care for in mind. This is the kind of mentality that we are trying to get fucking rid of with the PnP to end all this bickering bullshit. I'm not exempting anyone in this statement but you are one of the reasons this kind of thread needs to be posted. This is a video game, drop the fucking gloves for a second and be an adult

[Rallyd]

You have, on more than one occasion in this thread, directed your posts or input purely with the guild you don't care for in mind. This is the kind of mentality that we are trying to get fucking rid of with the PnP to end all this bickering bullshit. I'm not exempting anyone in this statement but you are one of the reasons this kind of thread needs to be posted. This is a video game, drop the fucking gloves for a second and be an adult

Couldn't agree more, GM discretion should NEVER be a part of the punishment for LNS. EVER.

[freez]

TOO BAD STILL BANNED


NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP



HEHE

[COLGATETHEGRANDMASTER]

if you die, call LNS in /ooc within 5 minutes of your death and then go and get your corpse

only the people that were involved in killing you must grant you LNS

people should be allowed to assist others in LNS and be protected by the person who died's LNS call(rezzing them, dragging their corpse, summoning their corpse, porting them to/from where they died, etc.)

guilds should be able to call LNS for their entire guild in /ooc following the same guidelines above

[Derubael]

Couldn't agree more, GM discretion should NEVER be a part of the punishment for LNS. EVER.

GM discretion will always be a part of all punishments, situations, and petitions. This will never change on red or blue.

You should keep your ego in check

now you are admitting that the original rules were both poorly reviewed and not at all researched

These two statements seem to contradict each other.

All I want to know is who spanked you that you are now considering input?

I've been considering input on these rules since they were implemented, and have stated as much publicly in this forum.


You've abused position, shown terrible incompetence in understanding real pnp vs baiting and rule lawyering

You should see how many red dawn/azrael petitions I've ignored in the petition forum on Nihilum PnP violations for lack of evidence or clear rules lawyering. Want to know how many people I've punished for PnP violations? 2. And I watched both of those happen. Want to know how many red players I've banned from the forums? 1, tomatoking. So how am I abusing my position again...?

[Koota]

if you die, call LNS in /ooc within 5 minutes of your death and then go and get your corpse

only the people that were involved in killing you must grant you LNS

people should be allowed to assist others in LNS and be protected by the person who died's LNS call(rezzing them, dragging their corpse, summoning their corpse, porting them to/from where they died, etc.)

guilds should be able to call LNS for their entire guild in /ooc following the same guidelines above

I like this idea, but I don't. This might encourage alt griefing on your first point. And there is grey area for those that claim "I didn't participate in killing you". I think you have the right mind set but we nneed to eliminate the grey

[k9quaint]

You have, on more than one occasion in this thread, directed your posts or input purely with the guild you don't care for in mind. This is the kind of mentality that we are trying to get fucking rid of with the PnP to end all this bickering bullshit. I'm not exempting anyone in this statement but you are one of the reasons this kind of thread needs to be posted. This is a video game, drop the fucking gloves for a second and be an adult

You seem unable to differentiate between theory and action. Perhaps you have not read the whole thread as the discussion was constructive and meaningful.

I have never been warned nor suspended nor banned by a GM for behavior in game, nor have I engaged in any such behavior either intentionally or unintentionally. Nihilum began the last discussion about PnP with a blanket declaration that they would not participate (with predictable results from the GMs). This is fact and I can quote the relevant posts if need be. If Nihilum wants to get on board with PnP this time around, then Nizzar can show up here and declare it to be so.

This rule set is simple and enforceable. The fact that it is contained in more than one paragraph will prove problematic for some, but I suspect they will not be missed if they act in ignorance of the rules.

[Koota]

You seem unable to differentiate between theory and action. Perhaps you have not read the whole thread as the discussion was constructive and meaningful.

I have never been warned nor suspended nor banned by a GM for behavior in game, nor have I engaged in any such behavior either intentionally or unintentionally. Nihilum began the last discussion about PnP with a blanket declaration that they would not participate (with predictable results from the GMs). This is fact and I can quote the relevant posts if need be. If Nihilum wants to get on board with PnP this time around, then Nizzar can show up here and declare it to be so.

This rule set is simple and enforceable. The fact that it is contained in more than one paragraph will prove problematic for some, but I suspect they will not be missed if they act in ignorance of the rules.

Tldr. My point stands. I could give two fucks about your infractions or others. This this thread isn't about either

[Herb9]

You should see how many red dawn/azrael petitions I've ignored in the petition forum on Nihilum PnP violations for lack of evidence or clear rules lawyering. Want to know how many people I've punished for PnP violations? 2. And I watched both of those happen. Want to know how many red players I've banned from the forums? 1, tomatoking. So how am I abusing my position again...?

Corruption or incompetence, it's one or the other. You admit that you witnessed the occurrence first hand, so it's incompetence then. Because you ignored context. By ignoring context you show that you were trigger happy, and being trigger happy is a symptom of your ego.

A player was killed that doesn't even think his killer should have been banned, who was res'd back into the battle in violation of the rules, who looted up and appeared geared and part of the fight, who was killed by an aoe targeted at his teammates and 1 single melee swing.

That you missed all that and still feel comfortable handing out a ban, is disconcerting to say the least. That another player was suspended and 5 days later unsuspended for the same violation, shows your inconsistency, and lends credibility to the accusations of bias.

The prior statements about your ego and now asking for input are consistent within context as well, which you ignored again. The context is that you were spanked by someone higher up, leading you into reconsidering. That without that spanking, your ego would still be in control, and you would not be listening to input.

[COLGATETHEGRANDMASTER]

Corruption or incompetence, it's one or the other. You admit that you witnessed the occurrence first hand, so it's incompetence then. Because you ignored context. By ignoring context you show that you were trigger happy, and being trigger happy is a symptom of your ego.

A player was killed that doesn't even think his killer should have been banned, who was res'd back into the battle in violation of the rules, who looted up and appeared geared and part of the fight, who was killed by an aoe targeted at his teammates and 1 single melee swing.

That you missed all that and still feel comfortable handing out a ban, is disconcerting to say the least. That another player was suspended and 5 days later unsuspended for the same violation, shows your inconsistency.

The prior statements about your ego and now asking for input are consistent within context as well, which you ignored again. The context is that you were spanked by someone higher up, leading you into reconsidering. That without that spanking, your ego would still be in control, and you would not be listening to input.

Care to reply and give more examples of you ignoring context?

wow you're a fucking retard

go back to updating your red99 blog with 2 kills every 3 weeks

faggot

[Koota]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[Herb9]

wow you're a fucking retard

go back to updating your red99 blog with 2 kills every 3 weeks

faggot

Don't be so mad I was a thing before anyone knew who you are.

You shouldn't derail a thread with your personal problems.

[runlvlzero]

We didn't permaban on railbait for friendly fire, unless the guy consistently got on every day and sniped his team mates, spamming frag grenades into the mid zone of a map wasn't ban worthy, we might kick that player 2-3 times a night. Usually once per match till they played good or left.

But that is the worst we did.

I think we need to outline some careful suspension/warnings in regards to LnS/PnP. As long as GM's can take action to stop greifing as it's happening, giving players a guidline to use, and stopping habitual harrasment, and encouraging pvp between large parties in dangerous zones it's serving it's purpose.

If things are escalating beyond pnp voilations to harrasment, than treat it as such. Don't worry bout PnP so much, use it as the GUIDELINE for SPORTSMANLIKE behavior it should be, and try to enforce it through warnings, suspensions (24-72hr). Unless it's like someone just seeing how far they can push it and this is the 20th time it's been reported by a unique individual.

That's how to be impartial and use it as a tool to help the server, vs a tool for meta-game grief. Because no one is perfect. And anything and everything can be abused and turned into a weapon at some point.

I like you Derubal, I trust you, but, you may not always be here either. Someone like me should be able to handle PnP violations as a guide/specialized PnP referee with compartmentalized access. And not worry bout stepping into big daddy banhammer territory/toes or infuriating the playerbase on a case by case basis.

[Agatha]

http://i.imgur.com/j9u3dg5.jpg

[runlvlzero]

.
your humor is noted, but this thread is important and for the discussion of pvp, copypaste and and or quote my post and troll it in another forum.

[Derubael]

That you missed all that and still feel comfortable handing out a ban, is disconcerting to say the least. That another player was suspended and 5 days later unsuspended for the same violation, shows your inconsistency.


Not punished by me, nor was the punishment lifted by me. Also, two different situations. One was against the rules, the other was not.


The prior statements about your ego and now asking for input are consistent within context as well, which you ignored again. The context is that you were spanked by someone higher up, leading you into reconsidering. That without that spanking, your ego would still be in control, and you would not be listening to input.


lol@this. Nobody on staff has even commented on PnP or LnS public or private except me. I feel change is wanted and needed by and for the playerbase. But everyone can go ahead and continue calling me an evil, banhappy tyrant on their non-banned forum and player accounts, because I don't believe in banning people for voicing their opinion against me, my policies, or my calls.


Care to reply and give more examples of you ignoring context?

naw, cause you don't even know what you're talking about. Keep on assuming bullshit, and be happy that I don't do the same or half this server would be banned.

[k9quaint]

Tldr. My point stands. I could give two fucks about your infractions or others. This this thread isn't about either

Thanks for showing up and derailing conversations about the PNP and belittling other players.

Looks like the constructive suggestions have wound down. Put the rules into practice and see if they need any tweaks.

Go Niners.

[runlvlzero]

Stop feeding the trolls Derubal =/ they are winning.

[Liten]

How things get derailed fast here...

I don't care much at this point, just make it simple.... I think that's the only way it can work in the long run. When you're done with this thread, the PNP should be one or two sentence. If it's more this generall feeling of being scared to PvP will stick around.

[Rallyd]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyd View Post
This sounds much more simple.

You want LNS? Ask and ye shall receive, no bullshit.

Punishments for LNS offenses NEEEEEED to be black and white, not "whatever the GM decides based on what guild tag you have"

Suggestion : First offense - 3 days suspension. Second offense - 7 days suspension Third offense - 3 strikes your out - 30 days suspension

Players should never ever be banned from a server for a LNS violation, it is a core principle of a pvp server.

quoted for reason.

This will work.

[HeisChuck]

tune very toxic

[Koota]

Thanks for showing up and derailing conversations about the PNP and belittling other players.



Logical LNS was tried, it didn't work. Nihilum declared it was "confusing" and/or they would not follow it.

Now we have explicit rules to address the "confusion'. But Nihilum want's the old "logical LNS" confusion back.

I think Nihilum will always be "confused" about why they can't grief folks off the server. GMs should make an explicit rule set that is enforceable. Then they should enforce it.




YEAH, THANKS FOR SHOWING UP BRO.

[thisuserwasbannedlol]

how about when red dawn wipes to gore and nilly camps their corpses?

what kinda fucked up shit is that?

[bigshowtime]

shouldnt wipe to gore with 80 people imo

[runlvlzero]

http://i.imgur.com/j9u3dg5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7FPi13l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/EhC1WMh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/LDJm41O.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RApSfKn.png

http://i.imgur.com/cSSTa5p.gif

Last one is really hawt if u ask me. Oh shit, wrong thread lol, fuck it. I'm leaving this here. Ya'll don't give a fuck anyway.

[runlvlzero]

shouldnt wipe to gore with 80 people imo

yeah, ikr, pvp happend

[Herb9]

be happy that I don't do the same or half this server would be banned.

Yeah, you obviously don't let your ego get in the way of your responsibilities.

This is why people are saying discretion should be completely removed from the equation, your judgment can't be trusted.

[Silent]

Gorenaire (60 Cleric) <Nihilum>
Known to frequently spam AE slows like a noob and use almost pure melee dmg to win pvp. Will also try to channel complete heal when low hp instead of using divine light.

[freez]

woah herb rustled

[Butthead]

wth has happened? watd i miss?

[Supreme]

If we are going to rules lawyer PnP on a PVP server there needs to be an appeal system that is governed by the player base.

GMs should have the power to ban based on the evidence..players should have the power to reverse or uphold the GM decision based on the community as a whole.

And there should be specified limits to the banning or suspension and not something arbitrary and then forgotten.

This server needs integrity if it expects to be something players are willing to invest time into.

[joevz]

Rules rules rules. You guys are totally missing the point.

Seeing as how i no longer have anything invested here, i'll just be blunt. Your rules are transparent. these rules only exist for you to control the outcome of events on this server. Some gm that played here probably got his panties in a bunch when he couldn't win, so he found another way to do it. pathetic

You are just going to decide how eq pvp works now 15 years later? Theres no allowing or denying players to rez or return to battle in pvp of any size. Thats fucking retarded. This is everquest, takes your commy rules somewhere else and let the game play out.

If someone is excessively bind camping or corpse camping a player WITHOUT CAUSE (ie, the player didn't instigate it), THEN maybe you should warn or perhaps suspend players. Yes, there should be CALLED loot and scoot and players that LNS should be punished if they begin attacking players in any adjacent zone after forfeiting their right to pvp.

THATS IT, those are your rules in 2 sentences.

you guys dont have players to spare, banning players for playing the game on a 150 man server is the epitome of stupid

[heartbrand]

Can we be real for a second? Two people got banned. One of them killed a half dozen people on LNS and petitioned saying that he would ignore the GMs and rules. He was previously banned for stripping and deleting multiple characters. He used an auto swap weapon UI, a shared bank UI and distributed these on his guild forum. This player was incredibly toxic.

The other player had been previously banned for boxing, high sunned mobs and claims he petitioned it though no GM has confirmed that. He mercilessly griefed new players off the box, exploited instruments and weapons, exploited IP exemption poofing in pvp, I could go on.

The second player still plays here.

The rules aren't difficult. This is a free server, no one has any rights here. To be honest, the GM action here is incredibly classic, the " you're in our world now ." If you were spamming n**** in ooc on live you would have been instantly and permanently banned. Say the word fuck in ooc? That's likely a suspension. Accuse guides / GMs of questionable decisions? Ban.

To be quite honest, GMs are TOO lenient here. Perhaps of GMs would ban MORE people and clean this sever up we would see the pop go up. The biggest issue as I see it is the ability to get infinite emulator accounts and keep re rolling.

Keep up the good work GMs, ignore the noise. The only way to build this server again is to clean it of the racist / homophobic / tin foil hat wearers who crap on OOC, ignore the PNP and make this server unplayable.

[joevz]

oh i see some people already beat me to the punch. Maybe there is hope for this server yet.

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

on impartiality

All I want to know is who spanked you that you are now considering input? You've abused position, shown terrible incompetence in understanding real pnp vs baiting and rule lawyering, and now you are admitting that the original rules were both poorly reviewed and not at all researched.

You owe anyone you suspended or banned under the previous rules an apology and reprieve.

You should keep your ego in check and pay less attention to server politics, if you wish to give the impression of impartiality.

[Dullah]

Can we be real for a second? Two people got banned. One of them killed a half dozen people on LNS and petitioned saying that he would ignore the GMs and rules. He was previously banned for stripping and deleting multiple characters. He used an auto swap weapon UI, a shared bank UI and distributed these on his guild forum. This player was incredibly toxic.

The other player had been previously banned for boxing, high sunned mobs and claims he petitioned it though no GM has confirmed that. He mercilessly griefed new players off the box, exploited instruments and weapons, exploited IP exemption poofing in pvp, I could go on.

The second player still plays here.

The rules aren't difficult. This is a free server, no one has any rights here. To be honest, the GM action here is incredibly classic, the " you're in our world now ." If you were spamming n**** in ooc on live you would have been instantly and permanently banned. Say the word fuck in ooc? That's likely a suspension. Accuse guides / GMs of questionable decisions? Ban.

To be quite honest, GMs are TOO lenient here. Perhaps of GMs would ban MORE people and clean this sever up we would see the pop go up. The biggest issue as I see it is the ability to get infinite emulator accounts and keep re rolling.

Keep up the good work GMs, ignore the noise. The only way to build this server again is to clean it of the racist / homophobic / tin foil hat wearers who crap on OOC, ignore the PNP and make this server unplayable.

Keep your fucking lies in your mouth you scumbag.

I did not kill 6 players on LNS, I only killed one who was in the middle of other players pvping me. You are just incapable of making 1 honest statement if the life of you and your family were on the line.

Yes, i did delete the character owned by the same player that stole and deleted several other players characters, and after stealing attempted to RMT the items with evidence (WHICH YOU PUT ON THESE FORUMS YOURSELF).

I use no third party software outside of GamTextTriggers which is approved by rogean. Stop fucking fabricating shit you lying cunt.

[Tune]

heartbrand hitting up those accusations and hearsay on me again, with only 1 documented incident on an old account

lol these forums never change

[Mac Dretti]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[Dullah]

Can we be real for a second? Two people got banned. One of them killed a half dozen people on LNS and petitioned saying that he would ignore the GMs and rules. He was previously banned for stripping and deleting multiple characters. He used an auto swap weapon UI, a shared bank UI and distributed these on his guild forum. This player was incredibly toxic.
Oh and you're really grasping at straws with the shared bank. Shared bank came with whatever version of EQ I originally installed. I had gear in those spots so I had to find a UI that would allow me to have the spots back.

Truly pitiful attempt to libel a player. How many bloomins you offer to get and keep me banned for killing 1 player in the middle of 30 players in your guild that violated LNS?

[Yagebasto]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[HeisChuck]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

good post

[Tune]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[Koota]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

[NotKringe]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.


Good idea^^

[Loto]

Oh and you're really grasping at straws with the shared bank. Shared bank came with whatever version of EQ I originally installed. I had gear in those spots so I had to find a UI that would allow me to have the spots back.

Truly pitiful attempt to libel a player. How many bloomins you offer to get and keep me banned for killing 1 player in the middle of 30 players in your guild that violated LNS?

All this sounds like is an admission to breaking the rules.

"But I had special circumstances!"

Obviously not special enough to the people that run the show.

[heartbrand]

The problem with that is one guild has demonstrated repeatedly that they will never surrender. Ironically, many of the people who once complained how that ruined the server are now in that same guild advocating a LNS that continues to allow for that. Instead, enforce the classic pvp server pnp that did not allow for the engagement of a raid force that were fighting a mob if the engaging party would be unable to slay the mob. Anything less will make velious a complete unplayable shit show.

[heartbrand]

A misunderstanding occurred that has been rectified, anything more than that is not for public discussion.

[heartbrand]

The GMs gave repeated warnings on the forums. Andis served an initial punishment with lite as a warning. Derubael made it clear bans would be issued and warned you all. Play by the rules and this won't happen.

[heartbrand]

What's ridiculous is why was Ender allowed to play here again at all?

[HippoNipple]

hasn't rogean warned people about disrespecting staff and starting rumors of gm favoritism over the previous 3 years? how were you unbanned? rogean decided to accept your apology and show leniency.



Lol Gyno begging for competition to be banned for forum comments.

Gyno's reputation and self respect at an all time low.

[k9quaint]

As usual, Nihilum folks shit all over a perfectly good chance to tweak the PvP ruleset. Hopefully the GMs will give us another chance to tweak the rules after they implement them.

/sadface at 49ers :(

[lite]

no battle ressing or rejoining large scale fights. - Got it.

[Darksinga]

If we die to a DOT during small scale PvP, but zone and don't get YT'd do we have to LNS from the original zone of PvP?

For example, I'm in Skyfire, I zone to BW at low life, die in BW due to a dot but there's no YT. Do I have to LNS at all? And if so from which zone?

Still no answer. Any one care to comment. Rules confusing as fx.

[HippoNipple]

Still no answer. Any one care to comment. Rules confusing as fx.

Yellow text is required no doubt. Treat that as a PvE death.

I think the rules sound great.

[Darksinga]

Also HB getting unbanned 5 mins after being banned is definitely looking sketchy. Donation = Free slate?

[COLGATETHEGRANDMASTER]

heartbrand got banned because titanuk pissed rogean off, so rogean banned every single account titanuk had logged into more than 10 times

which included all of heartbrand's characters

rightfully so, heartbrand's characters were unbanned

[Loto]

Also HB getting unbanned 5 mins after being banned is definitely looking sketchy. Donation = Free slate?

Really bad idea to start throwing those accusations around...

[HeisChuck]

Also HB getting unbanned 5 mins after being banned is definitely looking sketchy. Donation = Free slate?

yikes

ur forum acc will be banned

[Supreme]

Sorry not going off topic this thread.

[lite]

Yet you came to these very forums and decried how FOUL it was that Holocaust was banned and Nihilum wasnt?



not too late to fix the crime that plagued the server

[Derubael]

If we die to a DOT during small scale PvP, but zone and don't get YT'd do we have to LNS from the original zone of PvP?

For example, I'm in Skyfire, I zone to BW at low life, die in BW due to a dot but there's no YT. Do I have to LNS at all? And if so from which zone?

Pretty simple, doesn't even matter if its a pve/pvp death in this situation, because its up to you if you want to call LnS or not. If you don't, obviously you can still be killed.

If it's large scale? eh, questionable, but I'd say you'd be out of the fight if you were already engaged in it as per the large scale rules.

Also, please stop shitting up my thread with these dumb donation accusations and other garbage. Rogean does not give a fuck about donations. He unbanned HB because the suspension had nothing to do with anything HB did, it was something Titanuk made in a forum post. When we looked up the logins, Titanuk had a bunch of connects to HB accounts, so he suspended everything and waited to find out who's was who's.

Let's get back on topic. I liked gongshow's post, and will take that into consideration. Any other ideas/questions/thoughts, or is this pretty solid?

[Supreme]

sorry not going to OT this thread.

[Silent]

Heartbrand nice to see you removed your old sig, where you mentioned the characters you had stripped and gear you had stole from people. Don't want your newbie recruits seein that on the forums I guess do you? Have a whole new flock to lie to and worship at your feet.

And back on topic, quoting Gongshow's post after a dozen or more people already did before seems pointless so all I can say to this is...What Gongshow said.

[Dullah]

What's ridiculous is why was Ender allowed to play here again at all?

Ya for 2 yrs ive dirtnap you and your guild in game and on these forums. All you can do is make shit up and cry on these forums like the bitch you are.

[Tradesonred]

A question I've had:

Currently, it's more dangerous to engage in PVP than it is not to. If a player violates the LNS policy and kills a LNSing player, they are subject to permanent bans, aka Tune/Spectre.

However, there's been multiple times I've seen LNSing players engaging in PVP (tashing people, stripping people, going afk in contested zones and daring other players to kill them).

How will this be regulated? How can I submit evidence to the staff about violates? Currently, nothing is being done because of the deluge of complaints and 'no evidence.' What do I do?

I would keep piling up the evidence until its proven beyond doubt that PnP has been transgressed and violated. If its clear cut it will speed up the judiciary process. When youve got like 2 hours of footage of some toxic griefer trying to take back his camp, you wheel in those boxes of paper trail evidences at the P99 headquarters as cherry on top and get that motherfucker banned. Bam.

[k9quaint]

A question I've had:

Currently, it's more dangerous to engage in PVP than it is not to.

Only for you perhaps. I have never felt at risk in PvP because I have read and followed the rules.

[iiNGloriouS]

Ya for 2 yrs ive dirtnap you and your guild in game and on these forums. All you can do is make shit up and cry on these forums like the bitch you are.

You cannot count for shit lol. RD existed before this obviously but they have been functioning for maybe 2-3 months now? Prior to that I know they weren't around for 1 year total time... Besides if you shit on HB and his guild, does that mean you shit on Nihilum too? I would assume so as you are wasting their time PLing you new toons, getting epics, and all these other goodies when you get busted for using MQ, boxing, etc.

[Dullah]

If only our GMs knew all the shit you kids talk came straight from your imaginations.

I've never been "bust for MQ" or boxing. I don't need to hack to kill you baddies. These rumors you guys continually propagate and circulate are the real problem with this server. Get a grip on reality and improve yourself when you lose. Don't seek others to vindicate you out of malice. You're like a bitch calling the cops on her husband because she is upset he won't listen to her irrational banter.

[Slathar]

If only our GMs knew all the shit you kids talk came straight from your imaginations.

I've never been "bust for MQ" or boxing. I don't need to hack to kill you baddies. These rumors you guys continually propagate and circulate are the real problem with this server. Get a grip on reality and improve yourself when you lose. Don't seek others to vindicate you out of malice. You're like a bitch calling the cops on her husband because she is upset he won't listen to her irrational banter.

7 banned accounts.

Endless posts of rage and Asperger's.

I will have my vengeance. In this forum or the next.

Everquest.

[iiNGloriouS]

7 banned accounts.

Endless posts of rage and Asperger's.

I will have my vengeance. In this forum or the next.

Everquest.

HPT known MQer, Nizzar seen on video typing /face... Pretty damn incriminating isnt it

[Slathar]

The Duke is blameless. His will is impermeable, you kissless virgin.

[Silent]

HPT known MQer, Nizzar seen on video typing /face... Pretty damn incriminating isnt it

Yeah, That damning video Agatha pretended to take that no one ever saw in attempt to troll. FOOLPROOF EVIDENCE, link2video? This was before your time, This is how EQ goes though. Most people can't tell between troll or truth, Red Dawn just has more spergs trolling the forum lately like rellapse and k9saint who both seem swingin pretty tight from a certain persons nutsack. Its amazing how elaborate trolls can turn into 'facts' given enough time and rinse and repeat.

[Rellapse36]

whose nutsack am I swinging from? Shits funny smoke more meth idiot

[Kergan]

Only for you perhaps. I have never felt at risk in PvP because I have read and followed the rules.

Why must you be so blinded by your agenda you can't realize legitimate points when they are right in front of you?

Exactly 0 people have been suspended for violating the portion of the PNP that governs how the losing party must act. Every suspention on EITHER side has come from the side of the victor. That fact alone is why it can be considered more dangerous in terms of bans/suspensions to PVP.

Stop forumquesting for one freaking minute and start t odiscuss how to make the PNP fit. Every time I think you've turned the corner you go full retard again.

Now, more on topic I very much agree with what Gongshow said. Pretty much anything goes PVP related until someone throws in the towel. No wondering who is attackable and who isn't, spending more time tracking that nonsense than focusing on the battle at hand. When one side gives up, it ends, full PNP in place and the LNS process begins.

[plagueis]

i'm sorry but these rules are ridiculous. i came back to this game to avoid all the bluebism on games like wow and i'm right back where i started ... these rules need to go. the only thing that should be enforced is training and boxing(which is rampant and seems even worse since pnp)

[azo313]

A step in the right direction, but this still seems confusing.

Can we just get a thing called "logical LNS"? This is where anything that EQ PVP encompasses, including bind rushing, rezzing, corpse camping to an extent, is allowed. Once one side calls LNS, the winning guild allows the losing guild to LNS and move along, and they agree to not contest that zone/mob for an hour.

This allows everyone to enjoy EQ PVP to the fullest, and also prevents anyone from getting corpse camped and having their evening ruined by being camped, etc. This also prevents bannings that harm the server population due to confusing rules. Bans should be saved for MQ and other stupid things, such as RL threats, GM attacks, etc.

Logical LNS 2014.

This makes a lot of sense.

[Bazia]

Server population up quite a bit since PNP was instituted, regardless of the same 5 people making endless crying threads on the forum.

Keep that in mind,

[Labanen]

Server population up quite a bit since PNP was instituted, regardless of the same 5 people making endless crying threads on the forum.

Keep that in mind,
No, pop is up since there is more than one guild for the first time since holoban and pvp happens. Or at the very least several things happened which would boost pop, cant give lns all credit, if any.

This ruleset is not much better than the original draft, however Derubael taking inputs is a big step forward. Appreciate that part alot regardless of what changes will be made to the lns.

The problem with the leaving zone = you called lns, is that if you fight mobs, someone engages you, you zone out to loose mob agro and get ready to fight back, but now you cant cause your attackers didnt get agro or left a monk fd inside so if they didnt zone after you, you re done. Cant even defend your Camp for an hour. Gongshows suggestion is the only reasonable one this far. And to make rules where derubael himself say a given situation is questionable is bad, how the hell are we going to interpret the rules if the author of them cant... Make it simpler.

[Derubael]

The problem with the leaving zone = you called lns, is that if you fight mobs, someone engages you, you zone out to loose mob agro and get ready to fight back, but now you cant cause your attackers didnt get agro or left a monk fd inside so if they didnt zone after you, you re done. Cant even defend your Camp for an hour. Gongshows suggestion is the only reasonable one this far. And to make rules where derubael himself say a given situation is questionable is bad, how the hell are we going to interpret the rules if the author of them cant... Make it simpler.

The leaving the zone thing only applies if you or a member of your group died, so you'd be free to go back and contest even if they didn't pursue you. I added a definition of engagement (someone dying to PvP) to the post a few hours ago to clear that up.

So far these rules have been able to address all possible scenario's and questions, except the one about someone joining the fight from another zone after a group had zoned out. I think it's safe to call that person part of a new group, so once he was killed he would be forced to call loot and scoot (since the killing group has more than 6 people, the large scale pvp rules would apply, and he must LnS). This is a pretty rare and specific scenario (group1 beats group2 out of the zone, does not pursue, but group1 has people running to join the fight from another zone), but is easily covered under this ruleset.

It's also a lot less complicated than you guys are making it out to be =X

die in large scale pvp, stay out of the fight and loot when LnS is called, die in small scale pvp, call LnS, or don't call LnS and forfeit ability to do so.

^ there's your one sentence definition.

[Labanen]

So if you loose one guy and zones out, can the remaining 5 for instance go back in to contest ?

[Labanen]

Also, i dont care if you need a sentence or 15 pages to describe the rules, i can read just fine. I care if the rules are simple and clear. I respectfully disagree with them being this, particularly in group and bigscale cases. Basicly only thing i agree with this far is how it has stopped one on one griefing. That is good.

[Derubael]

So if you loose one guy and zones out, can the remaining 5 for instance go back in to contest ?

Yes, and the 1 guy who died would also be able to go in and contest if he wanted to forfeit loot and scoot. There is no auto-loot and scoot in small scale PvP, and loot and scoot is called on a per person basis. So if 2 people died and 3 people remained, those three could continue fighting wherever they wanted. If 1 people came back and called loot and scoot they could loot up and leave, if the 2nd person did not want to do so he could forfeit loot and scoot by not calling it, and continue contesting.

I copy/pasted the auto-LnS rule to both large and small scale PvP and applied it on accident without thinking about it, but that rule only applies to large scale PvP (since you aren't required to LnS in small scale if you don't want to). I've edited OP to reflect that.

Also, i dont care if you need a sentence or 15 pages to describe the rules, i can read just fine. I care if the rules are simple and clear. I respectfully disagree with them being this, particularly in group and bigscale cases. Basicly only thing i agree with this far is how it has stopped one on one griefing. That is good.

I did the one sentence thing because someone mentioned that earlier, sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like that was directed at you. What part is unclear though? Or not simple? If I can sum it up in 1 sentence it's probably simple. It looks long and confusing but it's not, thats just to make sure things are clearly defined. This would be needed in any LnS ruleset, regardless of implementation.

[iiNGloriouS]

I love how Nilly thinks this is just a witchhunt against them. This thread http://i.imgur.com/7QkyXjL.gif.

Deru is obviously trying to get a more understandable ruleset established so shit like these bans don't happen. Stop crying wolf jesus christ.

[k9quaint]

The leaving the zone thing only applies if you or a member of your group died, so you'd be free to go back and contest even if they didn't pursue you. I added a definition of engagement (someone dying to PvP) to the post a few hours ago to clear that up.

So far these rules have been able to address all possible scenario's and questions, except the one about someone joining the fight from another zone after a group had zoned out. I think it's safe to call that person part of a new group, so once he was killed he would be forced to call loot and scoot (since the killing group has more than 6 people, the large scale pvp rules would apply, and he must LnS). This is a pretty rare and specific scenario (group1 beats group2 out of the zone, does not pursue, but group1 has people running to join the fight from another zone), but is easily covered under this ruleset.

It's also a lot less complicated than you guys are making it out to be =X

die in large scale pvp, stay out of the fight and loot when LnS is called, die in small scale pvp, call LnS, or don't call LnS and forfeit ability to do so.

^ there's your one sentence definition.

Indeed, the essence of the rules can be boiled down to that. However, the more discussion about it (both abstract and concrete) the better. Perhaps in a heavily moderated thread to weed out spam, gifs, and personal attacks.

[HippoNipple]

I think these rule revamps are great. They please players from small guilds like FoH that allow people to keep pvping if they want. It just gives people an option to surrender and leave if they want.

For large scale I also 100% agree. The point of the large scale PvP is so one side can declare victory and get rid of the zerg mentality. Once you die you are out, don't go back to the zone until the fight is over. Perfect. It gets rid of the LnS problems during fights, stops zerging and promotes teamwork.

Hopefully everyone can stop with the campaigning against the rules and get with the spirit of the rules. It is about having fun on the box and promoting fun PvP while only getting rid of large scale zergs for hours and griefing solo players. Hopefully these changes will help with the troll petitions, bait bans, etc.

As for Derubael, I'm starting to see why GMs don't respond much on these threads. He is having to defend himself, past GM decisions and these new rules way more than he should have to.

[Supreme]

The real problem is when new players start here and they do not know about these rules.

You will see alot of new players being banned because they did not receive the Purple99 Handbook for PNP.

[AmukTZ]

Just to clarify between large scale and small scale pvp..only one side has to consist of 7 or more correct?

i.e. 2 groups are doing fear and 1 group comes in to pvp. This falls into large scale rules where lns is always applied?

Overall I think this is laid out clearly and not too many gray areas exist. When does this go into action?

[mostbitter]

If I have someone on ignore because they are truly repugnant and obnoxious how can I tell if they are asking for loot and scoot or bind rushing ?

[bigshowtime]

ok, i have a serious question about the LNS here.

90% of the time, i play with ooc off, because it is usually just disgusting to have to read and i am pretty offended by the crap people say in it... am i forced to now play with ooc on to know if the player is requesting LNS in small pvp situations?

also, the same applies to the ignore feature. i have a few people on this server on ignore, because of the same reason above (the habitual offenders), will i need to take these players off ignore to know they are requesting LNS ?

thanks.
showtime

[Derubael]

Just to clarify between large scale and small scale pvp..only one side has to consist of 7 or more correct?

i.e. 2 groups are doing fear and 1 group comes in to pvp. This falls into large scale rules where lns is always applied?

Correct.

Overall I think this is laid out clearly and not too many gray areas exist. When does this go into action?

For right now it's just on the drawing board. I mostly posted this for feedback to wipe out as much gray area as possible, so I'm still putting out the challenge for people to think of a situation where this could be abused, misinterpreted, or lawyered so I can fix it if needed.

If I have someone on ignore because they are truly repugnant and obnoxious how can I tell if they are asking for loot and scoot or bind rushing ?

You'll still see the YT. Ask someone else in zone, or take them off ignore for a minute and ask them. Someone running naked through a zone is a good indication that they might be LnS'ing.

ok, i have a serious question about the LNS here.

90% of the time, i play with ooc off, because it is usually just disgusting to have to read and i am pretty offended by the crap people say in it... am i forced to now play with ooc on to know if the player is requesting LNS in small pvp situations?

also, the same applies to the ignore feature. i have a few people on this server on ignore, because of the same reason above (the habitual offenders), will i need to take these players off ignore to know they are requesting LNS ?


They have to call it in either /shout or /ooc. If you have ooc turned off, you'll still be able to see the YT, so if you see a YT on a player and then see them in your zone, you may want to ask them if they are LnSing so you don't kill them on a LnS.

[iiNGloriouS]

only people punished under pnp, wore <nihilum> tag. that's why, true or not.

But as I recall it was on day 2 of the rules being established, and each member killed several people who were naked (I'd say 3+ each). But both players have also been banned in the past and to my understanding as of now, have given the GMs extreme attitudes.

[Bazia]

Ender and Tune both have been banned before, how many chances should someone get.

[bigshowtime]

ok derubael, that sounds fair i will make sure to ask in /shout or tells...

what about if a player is calling for LNS, and then taunts you? like many times i have seen people on a CR sit there and say things like "i dare you to attack me" or something of the sort, are they forfeiting there safety and protection because of this? or are they allowed to say whatever they want knowing we can't hit back?

Thanks.
showtime

[Smedy]

Ender and Tune both have been banned before, how many chances should someone get.

i say none, if gms want to be respected they need to stand their ground and ride the wave of posts from mads and sads, maybe then people will respect the pnp rules

[Dullah]

Except neither of my bans should have been bans according to rules and common sense. One for deleting char of player known for deleting and stealing accounts/characters/gear + RMT without any repercussions.

deleting chars he has info to isnt technically against the rules. players are responsible for their own acct info

One for killing a player in mass pvp among 30 other players that remained in zone when they should have been gone according to LNS.

Keep rewriting the rules though, the GMs will lead you to victory.

[COLGATETHEGRANDMASTER]

Except neither of my bans should have been bans according to rules and common sense. One for deleting char of player known for deleting and stealing accounts/characters/gear without any repercussions.



One for killing a player in mass pvp among 30 other players that remained in zone when they should have been gone according to LNS.

putting sirken's name in a quote doesn't mean that it was actually said, nor does it mean it was posted before the rules changed

you broke the rules, you got the punishment you deserve

SCUM

[Bazia]

Who did mellow delete and strip?

[Tarigin]

Can we be real for a second? Two people got banned. One of them killed a half dozen people on LNS and petitioned saying that he would ignore the GMs and rules. He was previously banned for stripping and deleting multiple characters. He used an auto swap weapon UI, a shared bank UI and distributed these on his guild forum. This player was incredibly toxic.

The other player had been previously banned for boxing, high sunned mobs and claims he petitioned it though no GM has confirmed that. He mercilessly griefed new players off the box, exploited instruments and weapons, exploited IP exemption poofing in pvp, I could go on.

The second player still plays here.

The rules aren't difficult. This is a free server, no one has any rights here. To be honest, the GM action here is incredibly classic, the " you're in our world now ." If you were spamming n**** in ooc on live you would have been instantly and permanently banned. Say the word fuck in ooc? That's likely a suspension. Accuse guides / GMs of questionable decisions? Ban.

To be quite honest, GMs are TOO lenient here. Perhaps of GMs would ban MORE people and clean this sever up we would see the pop go up. The biggest issue as I see it is the ability to get infinite emulator accounts and keep re rolling.

Keep up the good work GMs, ignore the noise. The only way to build this server again is to clean it of the racist / homophobic / tin foil hat wearers who crap on OOC, ignore the PNP and make this server unplayable.

+9999

[plagueis]

all this policy promotes is confusion and leagues of alts waiting in the wings. lns was implemented with vague wording rather than approaching it from the programming side and forcing effects on people(like a res effect) and the confusion over rules and heavy handed one sided punishments have left this server in shambles. re wording the policy is just a band-aid solution and is still going to leave gms with 1000 petitions a week and players with a poor impression of the server. try telling a returning or new player about these rules and see how long they stay.

[heartbrand]

Except neither of my bans should have been bans according to rules and common sense. One for deleting char of player known for deleting and stealing accounts/characters/gear + RMT without any repercussions.



One for killing a player in mass pvp among 30 other players that remained in zone when they should have been gone according to LNS.

Keep rewriting the rules though, the GMs will lead you to victory.

Many dragons being slain by Red Dawn, zero involving the PNP. Sorry pal, you lose. Good luck on your eigth rogue tho.

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[Silent]

Must have got a BCG eh?

[Kontra]

Many dragons being slain by Red Dawn, zero involving the PNP. Sorry pal, you lose. Good luck on your eigth rogue tho.

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:


Red Dawn violation #1 Ressing 20 players during the Solb/Lavastorm fight. The one were Tune/Spectre were banned.

Red Dawn violation #2 Denied LNS to shipit. One red dawn enchanter ran back 3 times tashing, dispelling people during the DL/Gore fight.

I am not saying there has not been violations on each side. But acting like Red Dawn has no violations is laughable.

[heartbrand]

encanter
lavasotmr

[Labanen]

Yes, and the 1 guy who died would also be able to go in and contest if he wanted to forfeit loot and scoot. There is no auto-loot and scoot in small scale PvP, and loot and scoot is called on a per person basis. So if 2 people died and 3 people remained, those three could continue fighting wherever they wanted. If 1 people came back and called loot and scoot they could loot up and leave, if the 2nd person did not want to do so he could forfeit loot and scoot by not calling it, and continue contesting.

I copy/pasted the auto-LnS rule to both large and small scale PvP and applied it on accident without thinking about it, but that rule only applies to large scale PvP (since you aren't required to LnS in small scale if you don't want to). I've edited OP to reflect that.



I did the one sentence thing because someone mentioned that earlier, sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like that was directed at you. What part is unclear though? Or not simple? If I can sum it up in 1 sentence it's probably simple. It looks long and confusing but it's not, thats just to make sure things are clearly defined. This would be needed in any LnS ruleset, regardless of implementation.thanks for the reply, seems to make some sense now. Will make a comeback when i got time to see how its being used.

[Ryko]

I wanted to comment on the RnF that has been going on in this thread. Many RD (k9quaint) have mentioned how good the zoning lns is because "Nizzar will never call LNs" while at the same time stating that all Nilly is fighting for there own agenda... If he did not call LNS for his dead what is te problem with sitting on Nilly corpses?

It seems to me that being able to kill one person and have everyone else zone is a huge point for RD as nihilum has had many small forces fight gainst a RD Zerg at KC zone line, untill reserves come. With this rule Nihilum would basically have to sit in DL doing nothing untill they had a force large enough for one single push. After that push one winning team would be crowned. If that is what the CSR is looking for then disregard what I have said as I think it will work.

What it will hurt is pvp in general as rather than plunking into kc dropping a few people and fighting for control over a period of time( haven't seen it take more than 30 mins to and hour myself) people must just wait for there own Zerg before they can logically engage.

Point 6 of guild a zone into 10 of guild B in KC. Guild a gets one YT, guild b gets one YT. Guild a zones out due to numbers... They are now on LNS for one hour due to one YT that could potentially happen instantly on a caster zoning into a rogue waiting.

Tl;dr I LOVE gongs how's idea

[Kontra]

encanter
lavasotmr


Notice how he did not comment on the violations.

[Tassador]

My only contribution to this subject. Players who flop aka cry ban should be suspended if no actual infraction has yet to take place. Any cry bans in ooc should result in player being suspended for one month.

[k9quaint]

My only contribution to this subject. Players who flop aka cry ban should be suspended if no actual infraction has yet to take place. Any cry bans in ooc should result in player being suspended for one month.

Anyone who thinks OOC crying results in bans should be banned for 3 months. :cool:

[Tassador]

If you sir think it is alright to egg people on ooc and call for bans is a gentleman way of conducting affairs. Then you sir are a nincompoop.

[karsten]

Gongshow's thing basically says that there isn't a PNP until a person calls LnS, and it applies individually for small scale and as a whole for large scale -- have I got this basically right?

That's a one sentence fix that would be able to throw a bunch of this other idiocy out the window, albeit not all of it.

For example, a person could easily deny LnS to someone by saying "oh i had them on ignore" and while I don't tend to have lots of people on ignore, forcing someone to take someone off ignore just because you killed them is sorta dumb. I don't have a good solution to this, but it needs addressing.

I'll reiterate that the whole "well group A has 3 people in DL and group B has 3 in KC and then one of them dies in KC and the others zone to DL and then group A zones to KC and the dead person calls LnS but then group B leaves KC and forfeits zone control" thing still doesn't have a good solution as far as I'm concerned, hence my post a few days ago about zone lines. *Most* pvp happens near a zoneline, and a person could easily zone 10 times back and forth chasing people. I shouldn't get punished for zoning after someone. Clearly if nobody "calls LnS" then this isn't a problem, but if they do, you can't just say "use common sense" because nobody here does.

To continue, if a person chooses to not call LnS, then the issue of bind rushing remains unaddressed.

We're moving in the right direction, but as it stands now I guarantee that there are going to be more people exploiting the grey areas and spamming you GMs with petitions. I can't imagine that is what you want, and I'd venture that most people here don't want that either, regardless of what side they're on. Unless you decide on a system where pvp is resolved primarily by players and not by GMs, you're gonna have a lot of headaches.

Also, I don't see how punishing people for rule violations when they keep changing has any positive impact on any discussions on further rule changes. I mean that's just silly.

Derubael I don't share a lot of the same vitriol that some others do, but it's important to echo a point: as players, we might decide to take attacks personally and fight back -- as a CSR member you necessarily need to hold yourself to a higher standard, and I want to encourage you to continue to strive towards acting less like a player and more like a staff member. I don't say this with any malice, but it *does* show, it does matter, and I urge you to let that show through your actions in the future.

[k9quaint]

What would be nice is if someone dies from PvP they get a debuff on them for 10 minutes. The debuff would prevent casting spells/songs on other targets and also prevents attacking other targets. Most mischief occurs right after a PvP death and this debuff would prevent 99% of it.

Should be fairly simple to code as well.

[chu]

whos gonna be first to cry to LNS? id have to guess it'll be someone from red dawn if it hasn't already happened

[Derubael]

all this policy promotes is confusion and leagues of alts waiting in the wings. lns was implemented with vague wording rather than approaching it from the programming side and forcing effects on people(like a res effect) and the confusion over rules and heavy handed one sided punishments have left this server in shambles. re wording the policy is just a band-aid solution and is still going to leave gms with 1000 petitions a week and players with a poor impression of the server. try telling a returning or new player about these rules and see how long they stay.

I've talked to a bunch of new players who are only on the server because of PvP PnP. And I'm not asking the dev team for a single code change for anything until after Velious is out. Even then, this is something that shouldn't need code to be implemented.


I'll reiterate that the whole "well group A has 3 people in DL and group B has 3 in KC and then one of them dies in KC and the others zone to DL and then group A zones to KC and the dead person calls LnS but then group B leaves KC and forfeits zone control" thing still doesn't have a good solution as far as I'm concerned, hence my post a few days ago about zone lines. *Most* pvp happens near a zoneline, and a person could easily zone 10 times back and forth chasing people. I shouldn't get punished for zoning after someone. Clearly if nobody "calls LnS" then this isn't a problem, but if they do, you can't just say "use common sense" because nobody here does.


You wouldn't get punished for zoning after someone. I edited/updated the ruleset for both large and small scale early early this morning. If PvP has been engaged on both sides of a zoneline (IE, you kill someone in KC, zone out to DL to chase the rest of their group) you aren't giving up KC, and DL can no longer be zoned into as an 'auto-lns' zone once someone has been killed there. You also get to pick which zone you want zone control in if you're the victor if PvP happened across multiple zones.

In small scale PvP, there is no zone out rule, so you could continue fighting.


To continue, if a person chooses to not call LnS, then the issue of bind rushing remains unaddressed.

In small scale PvP, yes, this is still a concern. Need to find a balance between the bind rush and the 'to the victor go the spoils', but I'm not sure if thats possible. I think in small scale PvP it's more important to you guys to be able to contest naked if you so choose.


We're moving in the right direction, but as it stands now I guarantee that there are going to be more people exploiting the grey areas and spamming you GMs with petitions. I can't imagine that is what you want, and I'd venture that most people here don't want that either, regardless of what side they're on. Unless you decide on a system where pvp is resolved primarily by players and not by GMs, you're gonna have a lot of headaches.


PvP is still resolved by the players =X. This is just a clear outline of loot and scoot. I think I've done a pretty good job of eliminating grey areas and confusion from the rulesets, but I think I said earlier in the thread that if you can find any other areas of confusion or exploitation please let me know so I can answer that or add a fix if it's needed.


Derubael I don't share a lot of the same vitriol that some others do, but it's important to echo a point: as players, we might decide to take attacks personally and fight back -- as a CSR member you necessarily need to hold yourself to a higher standard, and I want to encourage you to continue to strive towards acting less like a player and more like a staff member. I don't say this with any malice, but it *does* show, it does matter, and I urge you to let that show through your actions in the future.

If people are going to attack me, my actions, or my rulings, I'm going to defend myself.

Or is it better if I just do the 'fire and brimstone' style of GM'ing and start deleting posts/banning people who speak against my tyrannical rule, like a socialist dictator? I try to avoid that, but if that makes me look better as a CSR I can just start nuking.

[Mac Dretti]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YjZ2H60tcyo/TNzEU-N0NsI/AAAAAAAAA5c/DGu7J1CmjGA/s1600/Gaydar_Comic_4.jpg

[Nirgon]

The lifers will want to just constantly attack you until 4am so they can declare "victory".

At a certain point, "guild bind rushing" is an issue.

My 2cp on the matter.

Corpse camping was against classic pnp, so was forcing people to leave the zone. Looting and attacking 10 times in an hour was a great way to get a player harassment warning pals.


Go with the classic rule set that made RZ great.

[thisuserwasbannedlol]

code shadowrest or deal with constant garbage, pvp kills leave no corpse , locked in there 1 hour

end of story

[Edgat]

We need clear defined rules of how evidence should be given.

We were first told that logs would work then obviously that they could be fabricated

so then screen shots were good enough then we are told screen shots don't show enough

then we started using fraps/streaming apps and were told they are too blurry or that a chat window was covered by a picture

Can we please get a clear defined answer on what constitutes enough proof or at least enough proof that the GM will actually check server logs to confirm/deny the accusation instead of just saying your evidence is too blurry or your screen shot doesn't capture the exact moment player x did action y

I know the GMs are busy and lets be real here there is hardly ever a gm on red to actually show up when an infraction is happening and if they are there the infraction is probably being baited so how do we prove wrongful intent

[runlvlzero]

code shadowrest or deal with constant garbage, pvp kills leave no corpse , locked in there 1 hour

end of story

got to agree with tomatoking here... shadowreeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssttttttt motherfuckers - It's unclassic is not a valid defense until you implement proper rogue hide sneak, item loot, +/-4 levels, FFA

[Derubael]

I've told a bunch of people that logs + good screenshots can work. One screenshot of some yellowtext is not going to do it. If someone's violating a rule and you can't fraps it, try spamming the screenshot button. Bind it to 'r' or something. It's really easy to turn logging on, and I encourage everyone to do so. I log everything at all times, and I don't see any reason not to. Edit your eqclient.ini file to include this line:

Log=TRUE

And every time you log in your client will automatically start recording all text information sent to your client.

As far as fraps go, no, I'm not going to accept a fraps that has your chat window and your combat log covered up. That's essential to seeing what is going on in a situation. If I can't read the text, or if your fraps is so blurry I can't even read player names to see what's going on, I'm not going to accept it as evidence.

On blue, we have a rule for fraps: 720p, text windows uncovered. I'd say the same rule applies on red. Ask lite, I've bounced multiple petitions he's submitted before even though he had a solid video, just on the grounds that I couldn't see his text windows to fully understand what was going on.

And I'm not sure how much you think we actually log server-side, but it's very little. Rogean has access to a few more pieces of information than I do (Ie, code logging for certain actions like moving items around in your inventory), but we do not log tells or chats. Logging tells would be a serious violation of our users privacy, and while it would be used for good, I don't believe it's worth compromising our players right to privacy for.

[heartbrand]

The lifers will want to just constantly attack you until 4am so they can declare "victory".

At a certain point, "guild bind rushing" is an issue.

My 2cp on the matter.

Corpse camping was against classic pnp, so was forcing people to leave the zone. Looting and attacking 10 times in an hour was a great way to get a player harassment warning pals.


Go with the classic rule set that made RZ great.

[Edgat]

I've told a bunch of people that logs + good screenshots can work. One screenshot of some yellowtext is not going to do it. If someone's violating a rule and you can't fraps it, try spamming the screenshot button. Bind it to 'r' or something. It's really easy to turn logging on, and I encourage everyone to do so. I log everything at all times, and I don't see any reason not to. Edit your eqclient.ini file to include this line:

Log=TRUE

And every time you log in your client will automatically start recording all text information sent to your client.

As far as fraps go, no, I'm not going to accept a fraps that has your chat window and your combat log covered up. That's essential to seeing what is going on in a situation. If I can't read the text, or if your fraps is so blurry I can't even read player names to see what's going on, I'm not going to accept it as evidence.

On blue, we have a rule for fraps: 720p, text windows uncovered. I'd say the same rule applies on red. Ask lite, I've bounced multiple petitions he's submitted before even though he had a solid video, just on the grounds that I couldn't see his text windows to fully understand what was going on.

And I'm not sure how much you think we actually log server-side, but it's very little. Rogean has access to a few more pieces of information than I do (Ie, code logging for certain actions like moving items around in your inventory), but we do not log tells or chats. Logging tells would be a serious violation of our users privacy, and while it would be used for good, I don't believe it's worth compromising our players right to privacy for.

So if a chat window is covered instead of just moving the petition to resolved; why not say something like the chat boxes were covered?can you please provide logs for this time frame? instead of just closing the petition.

I just don't understand the second a GM responds they close the petition; instead of saying hey can we get clarification on this or this? you just say not enough evidence and close it, why not tell us what you want so we can provide it

[Gaffin 3.0]

you all have downs

[Mac Dretti]

submit video recordings

move to resolved cus not enough prof






looool

[Derubael]

Edgat:

While I greatly appreciate your taste in both bloomin onions, and fine redheaded ladies, it would be extremely helpful if next time you submit a video the chatboxes aren't covered. They usually contain info thats helpful in determining what exactly is going on.

Feel free to keep the redhead on there though. Just move her somewhere that isn't a chatbox.

that was how i responded to your petition thread with the chatboxes covered =X.

So, I'm not sure if this is just me, or if it looks this way for everyone, but the resolution on moving objects in this video is terrible.

This was how I responded to another video thread in the petition forum. =X

[Mac Dretti]

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/dancing/grand/39802755_dance_gif.gif

[SamwiseRed]

http://rumorsontheinternets.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/carlton-dance-gif.gif

[Andis]

Derubael pls take a moment to comment on the recording that I sent all the GMs, and STILL have not got a SINGLE response back too.

Thanks.

[Nothxu]

If you break up small and wide scale pvp, there is too much room for debate for which the encounter was. What if 3 people zone in late and that pushes the numbers up or down.

Go with Gongshow's.

[Mac Dretti]

Derubael pls take a moment to comment on the recording that I sent all the GMs, and STILL have not got a SINGLE response back too.

Thanks.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ace-ventura-dancing.gif

[SamwiseRed]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0ce23dcc4e035696b97d4c6f006441f5/tumblr_mpqilkvC4Y1spo3yuo1_400.gif

[Derubael]

Retti, didn't i just ban you for shitting up blue forum? howdafuq u already have 728 posts?

Mac_Dretti

Total Posts: 728
Posts Per Day: 35.13
Join Date: 12-30-2013

o.

[Twainz]

Retti, didn't i just ban you for shitting up blue forum? howdafuq u already have 728 posts?

Mac_Dretti

Total Posts: 728
Posts Per Day: 35.13
Join Date: 12-30-2013

o.

Retti is a man of many names and many forum bans. :D

[SamwiseRed]

Retti walks hard.

[Mac Dretti]

Retti, didn't i just ban you for shitting up blue forum? howdafuq u already have 728 posts?

Mac_Dretti

Total Posts: 728
Posts Per Day: 35.13
Join Date: 12-30-2013

o.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz4oey8ah41r5zq6ao1_500.gif

[Rellapse36]

Retti, didn't i just ban you for shitting up blue forum? howdafuq u already have 728 posts?

Mac_Dretti

Total Posts: 728
Posts Per Day: 35.13
Join Date: 12-30-2013

o.

Guy has problems

[SamwiseRed]

http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/ftpuploads/bloguploads/funny-twerk-mcdonalds.gif

[heartbrand]

Classic server go with classic pnp

[Gongshow]

Retti, didn't i just ban you for shitting up blue forum? howdafuq u already have 728 posts?

A .gif is worth a thousand words.

[Mac Dretti]

Classic server go with classic pnp

classic -

vz?
tz?
sz?
rz?
terrewmarr?

which classic u want?

[karsten]

Retti, didn't i just ban you for shitting up blue forum? howdafuq u already have 728 posts?

Mac_Dretti

Total Posts: 728
Posts Per Day: 35.13
Join Date: 12-30-2013

o.

dude

you are not a player, you're a staff member. We're collectively only going to take you seriously insofar as you act like one.

[Sektor]

dude

you are not a player, you're a staff member. We're collectively only going to take you seriously insofar as you act like one.

shut up nerd

[karsten]

shut up nerd

pity reply

[SamwiseRed]

i dont like the way you are talking to derudawg

[Rellapse36]

Why is it always a person in Nihlium always disrespecting free staff ? People act like this is their job and they are not allowed to have fun at all.

[Edgat]

Edgat:

that was how i responded to your petition thread with the chatboxes covered =X.

=X

I know how you replied I am asking you to leave the petition open after you reply instead of just moving it to resolved because saying "video too blurry" isn't resolved.

Ask for clarification say I couldn't see in your chat box the name of the person who did x that you claimed do you have logs to back it up or something.

[Rallyd]

These rules were not designed to protect low level or new players, these rules were designed to get rid of certain "disliked" individuals on the server, and to attempt to stop Nihilum from maintaining dominance.

Keep that in mind when making suggestions for changes, any suggestions other than those that will help this design work better will be shot down.

[Nirgon]

Funny on live when we had a classic PnP and I was in the top raiding sect on RZ, I didn't feel that way. Hum.

[SamwiseRed]

Wudan was numba one.

[Butthead]

i wish i had listened to nirgon, if i had, it woulda saved alota time/effort lol.

and good to see ur still alive samewise =D

[Derubael]

I know how you replied I am asking you to leave the petition open after you reply instead of just moving it to resolved because saying "video too blurry" isn't resolved.

Ask for clarification say I couldn't see in your chat box the name of the person who did x that you claimed do you have logs to back it up or something.

I move those threads because there are 200 other petitions in the forum, and we add another 200-400 petitions every week between red and blue. I need to keep it organized so I can see what's going on in the day-to-day.

You can submit another petition, you don't have to use the same one!

These rules were not designed to protect low level or new players, these rules were designed to get rid of certain "disliked" individuals on the server, and to attempt to stop Nihilum from maintaining dominance.

Keep that in mind when making suggestions for changes, any suggestions other than those that will help this design work better will be shot down.

If Nihilum can't maintain their 'dominance' in PvP because they are unable to continue a 10 hour endurance zerg rush fight, I'm not sure what to do for you. PvP shouldn't be about who can get the most people to continue fighting until one side gets tired and quits, it should be about organization and precision strikes designed to cripple a force and ultimately eliminate them from the engagement through tactics and skill by removing their members from the fight.

While I agree that being able to quickly res your fallen, or otherwise return them to the battle to continue fighting is an important part of mass PvP, it promotes zerg tactics and a frustrate-your-opponent-until-they-give-up mentality that isn't good for anyone, including Nihilum.

Why Nihilum is raising hell over this when they clearly have the numbers, tactics, organization, and leadership to continue dominating in this kind of environment boggles my mind.

[heartbrand]

I just don't get it. Nihilum has gotten almost every single "call" since day one of the server up to this point, be it clicky wands and Mage swords being used and then removed after nihilum were done using them, the nagafen exploiting, the holocaust ban, exp loss, the Kunark exp bonus when the server was 80% nihilum players that was removed the same time the majority of them hit 60, the slap on the wrist punishment for their players who flagrantly broke rules. Now we put in classic rules that say "hey you can't continue to kill naked people trying to loot and scoot" and suddenly the server is awful and corrupt? Lol?

[Mac Dretti]

A .gif is worth a thousand words.

http://media.giphy.com/media/J6DpAOPYcH4lO/giphy.gif

[heartbrand]

Why Nihilum is raising hell over this when they clearly have the numbers, tactics, organization, and leadership to continue dominating in this kind of environment boggles my mind.

Ding ding ding. Red dawn barely has level 60's, nevertheless level 60 alts, and you guys are camping 2/3/4/5 some people SIX level 60 alts at Trakanon for mass pvp and you're still crying about a no Rez rule that FAVORS nihilum? Holy fuck.

[Mac Dretti]

Ding ding ding. Red dawn barely has level 60's, nevertheless level 60 alts, and you guys are camping 2/3/4/5 some people SIX level 60 alts at Trakanon for mass pvp and you're still crying about a no Rez rule that FAVORS nihilum? Holy fuck.

i think the part that is annoying to Nihilum is how it appears every violation on Red Dawn side is ignored

[heartbrand]

The horror that the other side is finally getting some calls. Now just a guild ban for a couple weeks on nihilum as well as some permas for the boxers and RMTers and we might be caught up soon.

Edit: I'm not actually asking for that. I'm just saying its funny seeing the indignation from team Nihilum after having benefited from almost every favorable call since day one of the server.

[k9quaint]

i think the part that is annoying to Nihilum is how it appears every violation on Red Dawn side is ignored

Zero evidence? Zero violations.
Fraps and logs or it didn't happen.

[Supreme]

The complaint is that the rules seems to have been enforced without arbitration or appeal.

This leads to questioning of the integrity of the server as a whole. While you (Heartbrand) may label Nihilum as "that guild" which used wands, nagafen etc i can assure that it is not. You know this to be true as well!

We are not complaining about PNP or LNS. Whatever rules are put forth will be followed. We do take complaint to how it was being enforced as perma bans for our members and slaps on the wrist (for the same infractions) on non-Nihilum players.

[thisuserwasbannedlol]

desperate is why they still crying hb

time to play origins !

[heartbrand]

I could add some other things to the list but I'll just cryptically hint to FTC violations.

[heartbrand]

The complaint is that the rules seems to have been enforced without arbitration or appeal.

This leads to questioning of the integrity of the server as a whole. While you (Heartbrand) may label Nihilum as "that guild" which used wands, nagafen etc i can assure that it is not. You know this to be true as well!

We are not complaining about PNP or LNS. Whatever rules are put forth will be followed. We do take complaint to how it was being enforced as perma bans for our members and slaps on the wrist (for the same infractions) on non-Nihilum players.

You gonna post that log of me trying to RMT an aon or just continue to spread baseless bullshit while hiding behind a Christian facade?

[k9quaint]

We are not complaining about PNP or LNS. Whatever rules are put forth will be followed.

It must be opposite day.

[Derubael]

We are not complaining about PNP or LNS. Whatever rules are put forth will be followed. We do take complaint to how it was being enforced as perma bans for our members and slaps on the wrist (for the same infractions) on non-Nihilum players.

Show me clear evidence of anyone violating the current PnP and they'll get banned as well.

[Furniture]

Why not just spend the hour or so to hardcode loot and scoot rather then deal with this headache?

[Furniture]

Unless of course hundreds of petitions, fraps videos, drama, and headaches for everyone involved is what the staff wants, hardcoded loot and scoot rules defined exactly as you want them seems the easiest solution

[bloodletter]

LNS is working fine the way it is... I'm not getting corpse camped by nilly anymore i'll just go ahead and call it a success. That said; i DO like the no rezzing rule and the "pick a zone" to call LNS on rule and it's golden... That way if you kill someone after you chase them out of KC they cant just come back and harass you in KC again... (this is patecatl btw, not some forum-mule acc i just never post)

[runlvlzero]

Why not just spend the hour or so to hardcode loot and scoot rather then deal with this headache?

Cuz no forumquest for GM and no excuse to get rid of people that annoy them.

Their like cops who like having laws on the books they can bust anyone on at random.

TBH surprised there isn't rules about what gear you can use to pvp with at this point.

[mitic]

Show me clear evidence of anyone violating the current PnP and they'll get banned as well.

ok, its time to speak up now

u just dont ban someone violating pnp on a pvp server, at least not before u suspended someone once

guiding a server might be hard, even harder on a pvp server, but its you who choosed to do this job. just dont ban people because they did something wrong for the first, second or even third time. it takes you one mouseklick to ban someone but it also takes days, weeks or even months to raise a toon up to 60.

also, the community has to know what the banned person did to receive the ban, in your and the staffs very own interest so everything is clear and we can keep moving on (besides having less forumquesters after bans)

[SamwiseRed]

u just dont tell someone how to do things.

[runlvlzero]

And if you do they never listen!

What do you think, your overlords come to these forums for advice? Critique?! Sure they've said it before.

But they also have said that Rogean does lots of things...

[mitic]

u just dont tell someone how to do things.

looks like my common sense is different to your common sense

[Tubben]

Show me clear evidence of anyone violating the current PnP and they'll get banned as well.

It's pretty easy to violate pnp while pvp'ing by accident. If you start to ban people because of this, it will hinder pvp massive.

I could accept suspensions for a few days, but bans ?

[Nirgon]

PvP shouldn't be about who can get the most people to continue fighting until one side gets tired and quits

^ bingo and fits classic pnp too. Can't corpse rush as a guild or a single player for that matter.

[Instagib]

looks like my common sense is different to your common sense

They can do what they want you dont like it gtfo

[Flowz]

Cuz no forumquest for GM and no excuse to get rid of people that annoy them.

Their like cops who like having laws on the books they can bust anyone on at random.

TBH surprised there isn't rules about what gear you can use to pvp with at this point.

sounds like you should cancel your subscription, Why would anyone pay monthly for a game they constantly cry about and cry about the people running it?.....Oh yeah shit i forgot there is no subscription to this game and its all completely free to play and its your choice if you want to donate to the project or not. Adding your opinion to a discussion is one thing, adding sarcastic remarks and aiming them at decisions staff has made, i wonder why you are still here.

[Supreme]

You gonna post that log of me trying to RMT an aon or just continue to spread baseless bullshit while hiding behind a Christian facade?

I would really like to..but the party that you offered a vacation package for requests that to remain anon.

[Supreme]

Show me clear evidence of anyone violating the current PnP and they'll get banned as well.

Did Tune not one hit a player resulting in his death and was then banned for violation of PNP?

Did Spectre only kill one person that was on LNS and did not leave the area after looting his corpse only to be banned for violating the PNP?

Both of them are now being told that "you have previous violations of the rules" yet what rules were violated at the time of the infraction? Tune being banned on his cleric for logging in to do a item transfer is grounds for labeling him a cheater and a toxin to the community? Spectre being banned on MANY characters for stripping/deleting someone when it had been accepted and ignored by GMs until Ender did it himself. Bronkus was banned within 30 mins of the rules being posted and is still banned...yet no one was aware of the rules being posted (or even that the potential for the rule to be posted).

However players like Andis, Colgate(Cwall), Heartbrand that would train spectres on new players in oasis, wall hack by using LoS for bolt spells and delevel players that were afk are now looked upon as "golden examples" of model players of the community?

Check your petition logs, check your PMs. Players have been trying to reach out and reason with you about these things. But it seems that you are choosing to wear rose colored glasses.

[Tubzy]

The whole lowbie aspect of LNS kind of confuses me. Low levels it seems easier to grief people than ever. Someone could make a level 5 twink and kill newbies and tell them they have to log off or find another zone and just effectively shut out beginners. A twink in like unrest or CB can choose to kill you then log off, which allows you back in, but just log back in and kill you again, or they can sit afk in the zone just to keep everyone they ganked out for an hour.

In my opinion like 1-20 or 1-30 should be something more friendly like you can only gank someone once per hour but they still get to stay in the zone they just can't come near your camp or try to retaliate until the hour is up.

Hopefully I am not missing something and this has already been addressed.