FE Raid Scene Proposal

[Tanthallas]

This proposal is essentially a blend between Divinity's proposal and Rogean's. It provides a very strong balance between the hardcore competitive drive of some guilds on this server and the casual approach of others.

Tiered Rotation System

• The first 14 days of each month: tiered rotation system with kill-time requirement. There are kill requirements for joining each tier rotation.
• The second half of each month: (Starting on the 15th at 12:01am EST: GMT-5) FFA subject to Guild Council oversight. No guild is excluded.


Restrictions to entering Tier One rotation:

• Guild must have existed (and been active) for at least 2 months;
• Guild is not eligible for Tier Two slot;
• Guild must have killed any two of the listed mobs UNDER FFA CONDITIONS and within a 2 month period to be added to Tier One rotation:

o Trak
o VS
o CT
o Inny
o Talendor
o Gorenaire
o Seversomething

• Once guild has successfully met the requirements to enter Tier One, guild is immediately added to the list. If a Tier One guild does not maintain its 2 FFA kills of the above listed mobs after a 2 month period, that guild is removed from the Tier One slot it occupied.

Restrictions to entering Tier Two rotation:

• Your guild must have existed (and been active) for at least 2 months;
• You need to have killed at least one of the Tier Two listed mobs under FFA conditions;
• You must have killed atleast one of the mobs that you received a rotation spot for within a 2 month period or risk being removed from the Tier Two bracket.

Tier One

Trak1 Trak2 Trak3
CT1 CT2 CT3
Inny1 Inny2 Inny3
VS1 VS2 VS3

Tier Two

Sev1 Sev2 Sev3
Tal1 Tal2 Tal3
Gore1 Gore2 Gore3
Fay1 Fay2 FaFay3
Naggy1 Naggy2 Naggy3
Vox1 Vox2 Vox3
Draco1 Draco2 Draco3
Maestro1 Maestro2 Maestro3

Veeshan’s Peak

FFA

Guild Council

Guilds in their respective Tiers will come together once a month to determine the draft order and discuss any proposed issues. If a supermajority agrees that a guild has violated the spirit of this proposal in any way, the leadership council can enforce infractions:

• Any guild may be banished from the rotation for 1 month by a supermajority vote of 75% or more if they are deemed to be abusing the system. This is designed to be player enforced, but as always a GM ruling would supersede the council;
• Every guild that meets the rotation requirements will have a seat on the council;
• Every guild on the council can send 2 representatives to the monthly meeting but each guild will only get 1 vote.


Guild Council Sponsor

One guild will be required to sponsor the Guild Council sessions each month. It is this guilds responsibility to host the other guilds such that they provide a place / time for discussion. This does not have to be in Ventrillo; though Ventrillo would make it easier on everyone, it may as well be held in typing at the Freeport brothel.

This guild will be selected randomly at the end of each Guild Council session.


Amendments

Any changes to this agreement requires a 75% or higher consensuses in the Tier One bracket, and a 75% or higher consensuses in the Tier Two bracket.


Conclusion

Tier One guilds, into which the hardcore sections of this server will fall, will have to sacrifice quantity for quality – leaving a plethora of targets available for Tier Two guilds who wish to not devout endless hours of their lives to being on top of the raiding scene.

Competition is maintained both within brackets and by the potential to move between brackets, as well as the requirement of maintaining a particular standard of each Tier.

Most importantly, such a system opens up dialogue between each raiding guild. This provides an opportunity for each side to see that we are all people playing a game together and maybe – just maybe – help in causing each side to act more respectfully towards one another in the future.

[falkun]

So you'd actually want to filter back and forth between tier 1 and tier 2 in order to complete epics. This system tiers content in a way Rogean's and Divinity's proposals do not, which is to exclude content outside VP from tier2 guilds. Can you explain why the goalposts have been moved compared to the two most prominent plans?

[Buriedpast]

Signed.

Amen.

/Lords Prayer

[Tanthallas]

Because there will always be groups of people who are willing to do more and dedicate themselves more to doing it - the goal of these discussions is not to make everyone completely even regardless of their effort and dedication, it is to make the field more balanced so that everyone can enjoy themselves.

At the end of the day, if you want to be in the best gear or have more shots at the best targets than not, you will need to be in one of the guilds that is geared toward doing that. This does not mean that those top tiered guilds as such need to step all over the more casual ones and deny them any semblance of raiding, however.

There is ample room for any capable guild to get onto the Tier One roster, if for 2 months at a time at all. This gives every raiding guild who is not at the level of crazy hardcoreness a very solid chance at these 'Tier One' targets, but what it does not do is guarantee them indefinitely. It does not gaurantee them for anyone, instead it merely gives the opportunity to have them for a block of time if you decide to commit yourself to gaining that slot.

[falkun]

Ok, but the Rogean and Divinity proposals have been discussed over Vent conversations and in the Raid section. What incentive do the "tier2" guilds have to agree to this plan when the other plans already have traction?

[Exmo]

I see an issue with this where Azure Guard (or Other t2 guild) would have to compete against TMO/FE/BDA (Who'd be t1 in this probably) for 100% of their VS/CT/Inny Kills, which they need for epics.

Seems like 1/3 of those spawns should drop to t2, so they get to compete on closer to even ground for at least the occasional Druid/Necro/Wiz epic piece.

Additionally, when these do drop down to t2, do we have an issue with them being socked for DAYS? I mean, taken was at the last VS for like 3 days before it popped.

Seems Like a lot of flaws in this one.

I'd rather see the staff proposal implemented personally.

[falkun]

During the FFA period, are the tiers separated? A tier1 guild can attack Sev during the FFA second half of the month? A tier2 guild can attack Trak during the FFA second half of the month?

If that's the case its the Divinity Proposal but without Trak, VS, CT, Inny, Tal, Gore, and Sev. So again I ask, when there is traction for the Divinity and Rogean proposals, what incentive do the tier2 guilds have to back this proposal?

[Tanthallas]

1. You will not need to compete against anyone for the tier one mobs, you will be competing for your position in Tier One. The requirements are not difficult, and to be honest I think it will be more of a challenge to MAINTAIN your position in Tier One rather than get yourself a 2 month spot in Tier One. When there are actively 4 or more guilds competing to stay in Tier One, it will not be easy for anyone to maintain their position.

2. There will still be two weeks of FFA just like divinity's plan. It is during these two weeks that guilds must prove themselves capable of being placed into Tier One or maintaining their Tier One status.

3. Given the spread outlined above, it may be beneficial for some guilds to bump down to tier two every now and then just so they can get particular epic pieces. The amount of mobs in Tier Two is double that in Tier One, and there are many epic relevant mobs in each.

[baramur]

It is the same as the Divinity plan, you roll for first pick on mobs, just you roll only against your tier. As in TMO couldnt roll and pick a tier 2 mob during the 14 day period.

[Buriedpast]

Actually, unsigned.

Little bits not quite good.

[falkun]

So its the Divinity plan, except tier2 cannot draft VS, CT, Inny, nor Trak and tier1 cannot draft Tal, Sev, Gore, Fay, Draco, Maestro, Naggy, nor Vox? Personally, I'd take the Divinity plan because the only time tier2 guilds are going to raid is during the first two weeks. The tier2 guilds do not want to have to fight tier1 guilds for FTE, as Catherin says, its a mindset not a difficulty.

[Tanthallas]

Under this arrangement, every guild has ample opportunity to be on T1 and almost any raiding guild can maintain themselves on T2. Not only this, but winning a T1 slot for a 2 month period is not something overly difficult - this allows guilds to plan their approach to being in any which tier and adds a new element of competition that would not be subject to rule lawyering or Frapsquest.

This is open to modification - i.e., I am not opposed to having a particular mob, like Gore, be off the table for Tier One guilds during the FFA period until the guilds who wish to attempt her for their slot in Tier One have gotten their attempts.

[Tanthallas]

This is a progression based system, and as such rewards guilds that are ready to progress to the next level. It also makes sure guilds can maintain their positions at the level they have put themselves in.

I have not made it difficult for guilds to enter either of the Tiers. Yes, tier one is more difficult to get into than tier two - but that is to be expected. Like I said, however, there is no reason a particularly difficult mob like Gore cannot simply be left alone by Tier One guilds so that Tier Two guilds seeking to enter Tier One have uncontested shots and are already half way there.

[falkun]

So you can kill two of the Kunark dragons (Tal, Gore, Sev) or a god during the FFA period to get bumped into Tier1 rotation for two months. If you do not maintain the 2 kills in Tier1FFA, you drop back to Tier2 after two months. But tier1 and tier2 guilds can kill tier2FFA targets, so tier1 can effectively remove tier2 by killing all the tier2FFA targets and then everyone in tier2 falls off and can't get back in at all.

I could maybe get behind something close to this *IF* tier1 guilds could not control who is in tier2 at all times. Tier1 guilds can keep tier2FFA on lockdown, then no guild remains in tier2 and tier2Rotation mobs just wait 6 hours (because no rotation there to slay them) and go into FFA. How do you propose handling this scenario?

[Exmo]

The problem I see here is that you've set aside certain mobs for t1, period end of discussion. What mobs are in t1 and t2 should be rotated some, even if it's 4/1 for CT/Inny/Trak/VS.

You need to allow the t2 guilds to occasionally see a Wizard/Necro/Ranger/Druid/etc. epic and those fights, which they wont if forced to compete against a camped force.

[radditsu]

You need to allow the t2 guilds to occasionally see a Wizard/Necro/Ranger/Druid/etc. epic and those fights, which they wont if forced to compete against a camped force.

Camping forces is 10000000% a main issue nobody really wants to discuss, but it should be abolished completely.

[Exmo]

Camping forces is 10000000% a main issue nobody really wants to discuss, but it should be abolished completely.

The only way to Abolish it is a technical Solution (Succor all Camped PC's in the zone upon mob spawn) But they don't want to implement technical solutions.

Otherwise there's just going to be rules Layering about how they were camped for Tola/Prot or some such bullshit.

[radditsu]

The only way to Abolish it is a technical Solution (Succor all Camped PC's in the zone upon mob spawn) But they don't want to implement technical solutions.

Otherwise there's just going to be rules Layering about how they were camped for Tola/Prot or some such bullshit.

Let 6 people camp tola then!

Camping juggs with 6 is fine, with 26 is a blatant violation.

[doraf]

The problem I see here is that you've set aside certain mobs for t1, period end of discussion. What mobs are in t1 and t2 should be rotated some, even if it's 4/1 for CT/Inny/Trak/VS.

You need to allow the t2 guilds to occasionally see a Wizard/Necro/Ranger/Druid/etc. epic and those fights, which they wont if forced to compete against a camped force.

They can do whatever they want as long as they can get into the respective tier for the given period of time.

Other than that, they can do whatever they want for 2 weeks every month.

On top of that, I already said we would be completely willing to make it even easier for Tier Two guilds to bump to Tier One.

[Exmo]

They can do whatever they want as long as they can get into the respective tier for the given period of time.

Other than that, they can do whatever they want for 2 weeks every month.

On top of that, I already said we would be completely willing to make it even easier for Tier Two guilds to bump to Tier One.

They don't want to bump up to Tier One though, they want a shot at CT/Inny/Vs/Trak without competing with TMO/FE/BDA.

T1 involves a Batphone and High Numbers for Fast Engages.

T2 is Prime time raiding or at least more controlled engages.

That's my point. If Azure Guard or Taken or whatever is pressured by other, more organized guilds (Like Last nights ct for instance) they don't get the Kill.

You have to make Ct/Inny/Trak/VS cycle into the controlled t2 protected time, otherwise these guilds will never see a kill. Even if there is an FFA period.

[Tanthallas]

I could maybe get behind something close to this *IF* tier1 guilds could not control who is in tier2 at all times. Tier1 guilds can keep tier2FFA on lockdown, then no guild remains in tier2 and tier2Rotation mobs just wait 6 hours (because no rotation there to slay them) and go into FFA. How do you propose handling this scenario?

This is always what it will come down to. There is a large grey area between cockblocking and competing, but you cannot simply call any instance where competition exists bad because their is the potential for some entity to take that competition to a higher level. Being able to work some kind of agreement is the point here, not to simply shout no I dont like it because it has the potential for x,y,z, to happen.

So, to avoid the x,y,z, we could - for example - expand the list of relevant FFA targets that guilds need to kill to be put on tier 2; or we could put the world dragons on Tier One rotation but make Tier One guilds not eligible for killing them on the FFA weeks; or some combination of both. There are MANY ways to avoid the potential of cockblocking, not to mention that the Guild Council itself should be used as a tool to do so.

[-Catherin-]

tier two guilds don't really want it to be made easier to be bumped into tier 1, because they don't want to be in tier 1. They don't like the tier 1 playstyle nor can they commit to it. forcing a tier 2 guild that did not want to enter tier 1 would effectively destroy that guild.

These two tiers are different playstayles, not different skills.

[Tanthallas]

They don't want to bump up to Tier One though, they want a shot at CT/Inny/Vs/Trak without competing with TMO/FE/BDA.

The goal is to make the content AVAILABLE contingent on guilds WILLING to agree on a SYSTEM of their availability. Devising a new system of content availability does not mean there are zero boundaries and we should all be hugging and dancing naked in the rain. We are all still competitors, we are all still different guilds; what we are trying to do here is make the competitive scene itself less cutt-throat, NOT eliminate the competitive scene itself.

This proposal makes everything available, and is flexible enough to allow for modifications that can avoid the more devious forms of competition which were the main reason that most guilds were cockblocked out of progression in the past. The Tier system merely recognizes the fact that some guilds are more try hard than others - but it also leaves the door open for guilds who wish to put in a push here or there, or maintain their Tiered status that they achieve. There is no guarantee that one guild or another will make their Tier, nor is there a guarantee that one guild or another will maintain their Tier.

[Tanthallas]

tier two guilds don't really want it to be made easier to be bumped into tier 1, because they don't want to be in tier 1. They don't like the tier 1 playstyle nor can they commit to it. forcing a tier 2 guild that did not want to enter tier 1 would effectively destroy that guild.

These two tiers are different playstayles, not different skills.

Yes - and noone is forced to do anything. You can CHOOSE if you want to be in Tier One or not, conditional, of course, on meeting the requirements. If you want to get into Tier One for a 2 month period merely for the rotation of the mobs that are not in Tier Two, go ahead and do it and then go back to Tier Two when you are done.

It is completely another thing for people to say that they are being systematically denied entry into a Tier, however, for this is clearly not the case.

[falkun]

There are MANY ways to avoid the potential of cockblocking, not to mention that the Guild Council itself should be used as a tool to do so.

Except the guild councils are separate in your proposal, Tier1 guilds have their council, and tier2 guilds have a different one. What incentive does the tier1 guild council have to punish guilds cockblocking entry into tier2? When tier2rotation mobs become FFA, tier1 guilds get more mobs. If a guild becomes tier2, then it can work towards tier1. The incentive is there (as it was before the TMO suspension) to diminish participation in the raid scene, not expand it.

[Exmo]

The goal is to make the content AVAILABLE contingent on guilds WILLING to agree on a SYSTEM of their availability. Devising a new system of content availability does not mean there are zero boundaries and we should all be hugging and dancing naked in the rain. We are all still competitors, we are all still different guilds; what we are trying to do here is make the competitive scene itself less cutt-throat, NOT eliminate the competitive scene itself.

This proposal makes everything available, and is flexible enough to allow for modifications that can avoid the more devious forms of competition which were the main reason that most guilds were cockblocked out of progression in the past. The Tier system merely recognizes the fact that some guilds are more try hard than others - but it also leaves the door open for guilds who wish to put in a push here or there, or maintain their Tiered status that they achieve. There is no guarantee that one guild or another will make their Tier, nor is there a guarantee that one guild or another will maintain their Tier.

Everything is available to them now. How many trak's has Azure Guard/Taken/etc. etc. Gotten?

Theory and practice are different, and you're assuming that "completing" against TMO is making a kill available, and that's simply wrong.

[Alarti0001]

Everything is available to them now. How many trak's has Azure Guard/Taken/etc. etc. Gotten?

Theory and practice are different, and you're assuming that "completing" against TMO is making a kill available, and that's simply wrong.

Except they weren't competing.

Inny was competing in their own way on Inny recently. Look at their inny's in a row.

[radditsu]

Except they weren't competing.

Inny was competing in their own way on Inny recently. Look at their inny's in a row.

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/50441183/Xzibit.png

[Tanthallas]

Everything is available to them now. How many trak's has Azure Guard/Taken/etc. etc. Gotten?

Theory and practice are different, and you're assuming that "completing" against TMO is making a kill available, and that's simply wrong.

The 2-hour system was put in as a test. All it really did was allow mobs to be spread over more guilds than they would have otherwise over this two week period.

We are now talking about an actual rotation system, though not a complete rotation system it is still a rotation system in the sense that particular guilds are guaranteed a shot at particular mobs when it is their turn. This goes above and beyond the 2-hour no kill agreement that we had put in place before.

Not realizing that theory and practice are different, such that ideal circumstances which exist in theory are never actually recreated in practicallity, is indeed a bad thing. But bitching to bitch is far far worse.

[falkun]

Considering your (doraf) posts here and in Raid Discussion, here is my attempt to alter your rules to preclude tier1 from blocking entry into T2:
Maestro will be added to T1 rotation schedule, but T1FFA will not engage Maestro.

At this point, T2 will instantly put FFA-Maestro on rotation so that all guilds kill him once in a two-month period and they can remain on the rotation. Except now the mob is rotated, what you didn't want...My point here is that tier2 does not want the competition, tier2 wants the rotation. So develop a system where tier2 can rotate and tier1 can FFA, like the Divinity plan, or Rogean's proposal.

[Fountree]

The incentive is there (as it was before the TMO suspension) to diminish participation in the raid scene, not expand it.

Lol so expanded now. Check the kill boards.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I Support amicable guilds! (http://vimeo.com/83189180#t=0s) in no small part because of the support garnered by most guilds and people and it represents the wishes and desires of the super majority through compromise.

I would like to point out that in my opinion all of the "tier 2 guilds" have shown a propensity to work together as far as communication and being fair. While all of these guilds most certainly have a desire to kill raid mobs, they are also the ones who are reasonable, are willing to compromise and aren't trying to suppress the majority of the server. They aren't the ones training, stirring up rants and flames, and creating headaches with frapsquest and forumquest. In short the ones acting like more mature citizens of this server. I have no doubt the 'tier 2 guilds' won't be trying to hurt the other as far as epics, conversely I actually see cooperation and communication coming in those areas.

Quite simply I see people who want everything, and those who are willing to share. I see a collection of guilds who attend meetings to hash out a proposal they all can agree on on, regardless of whether or not it benefits them completely, and I see guilds who keep throwing up their own proposals almost haphazardly on the forums in what seems to me a desperate attempt to further their own desires; which, if you will pardon me, by actions for years on this server have shown to be nothing but selfish and petty. taunting the server with the fact guildbanks have 400 extra Cloak of flames, or Trakanon teeth, or AONS, or whatever item whatever guild in the past has listed has led to this. Maybe if you could have sufficed with 300 extra Trakanon teeth as opposed to 400, or whatever the number was/is things would be different. While I do not recommend we cling to the past, we must certainly take people at what their actions and deeds say, and the history of those very actions and deeds speaks for itself and has led us to this point. Those who fail to learn from history...

There is NOTHING preventing guilds from sharing or working together in more depth than the Divinity plan proposes, all that proposal does is lay a foundation to ensure there is SOME cooperation, sharing, fairness, or what have you. To suggest Divinity and Azure Guard (as an example) will be at odds over epic pieces is ludicrous to me. Perhaps the reason certain people cannot see things differently is because we see things as we are, not as they actually are. And it speaks volumes that the dissenting guilds to the Divinity proposal on the server are throwing new proposals up left and right incessantly in an effort to seemingly avoid what everyone else wants. Rogean specifically has expressed a desire to have things change, and there are direct quotes concerning this.

Server staff are tired of having one guild take raids to such hardcore extremes that they shit all over everyone else and make headaches for the server staff and the rest of the player base.

I'll sum this specific post in saying you have no one to blame for this but yourselves. And by you, I mean everyone who has been in a position at the top as far as raid content goes and had the capability to not be quite as selfish. I'm not judging anyone for wanting more for themselves, but IF one of those guilds had decided to (upon achieving that dominant position) decided to allow the more casual players to have shots at mobs, or allow people to get epics in some form of cooperation, we would not be here.

Now those who are in a position to make the server a better place for EVERYONE are the ones who have in essence, been shit on, for years. You have no one to blame but yourselves. WE have no one to blame but ourselves.


Originally Posted by Rogean
Whether you agree with it or not, we are no longer letting one or two guilds kill everything.

Deal with it.

Discussions will be kept in the raid discussion forum now.

[baramur]

People keep saying Compete against tier 1 in tier 1, its just like divinity, you roll just like divinity. The only difference is you roll against your tier and pick. If you want tier 1 loot you simply kill 2 mobs in 2month period and roll against tier 1 for slot while your in t1. If you need tier 2 loot you drop back down to tier 2 for 2 months and roll against the teir 2 for that period. Why are people saying Teir 1 is ffa during the 14 days...it is not.

[Unidus]

Personally I just think they need to increase the spawn times of all raid mobs until Velious. This whole situation is cause by 2.5 years of Kunark with to many 60s. Spawn times increased to 4 spawns per what used to be 1 and no more variance. Only rules you need are you can only kill them 1 time out of 4 to prevent hoarding. Trak spawns you kill him then the next 3 spawns you stay the hell away and go kill something else.

This gives every guild 4 chances at getting a mob and if you can't get a kill then learn to play better. Once Velious is here then normalize the spawns and FTE with enough people to kill the mob get to kill it. If you wipe and another guild is there then they get the next attempt. Not that hard.

[falkun]

I said T1 was FFA during the second half of the month, which is true. My concern is T1 being able to lock-out T2 without repercussions.

@Fountree: That occurred due to hastily set raid rules established quickly in good faith when TMO was first suspended. If GMs had thought that system sustainable, they wouldn't be banning everyone from raiding midnight tonight (Jan 2). CSR realizes its not sustainable, hence the pressure now.

[Funkutron5000]

Everything is FFA for the second half of the month. Kill 2 mobs out of the Trak/VS/CT/INNY/Outdoor dragon group in the FFA period in 2 months and then you get to rotate in on Trak/VS/CT/Inny. There is no lockout at all during the FFA period. It just asks you to put in a little bit of effort to earn your Rotation shots at those 4.

[falkun]

Doraf, preventing access (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1251393&postcount=24) is the problem for tier2 and the solution for tier1. Tier1 has always been about preventing access (see 200 Traks). Tier2 is about allowing access. Rogean's proposal allows tier1 guilds to prevent access to amongst each other and allowing tier2 guilds to open access amongst each other. The Divinity proposal allows the same, it just includes tier1 guilds in the open access first half of the month.

The FE proposal is BACK to preventing access. FE was heavily involved in Rogean proposal negotiations until it was revealed FE would get MORE mobs from the Divinity proposal. Now FE releases its own proposal that's based on the Divinity plan, but walls off (however low that wall is) raids. This feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

So Corova, why are you locking those 4 out now? You weren't locking them out under the Rogean plan, and then you moved to the Divinity plan when you realized it would offer you more mobs than the Rogean plan. Again, this feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

[doraf]

That is completely fine, and that is the competitive dynamic of the system. IF every tier 2 guild did that (and they would need 2 FFA kills, not one - still manageable) then they could enter tier 1. And they would do this through COOPERATING - which is the goal.

I would point out, however, two things:

1. There would not be enough for EVERY Tier Two guild to do this - so the barriers to cooperating are in the end that the Tier Two guilds that brought about the collusion would have to accept that only a few of them would be able to move up and the others wouldnt. Like I said though, that is the beauty of it - there will never be a system where 100% cooperation yields 100% of what every party wants, our ability to cooperate should go hand in hand with our ability to make sacrifices as well;

2. The few guilds left in Tier Two would have alot of mobs to kill uncontested and Tier One would become over crowded; when Tier One gets to over 4 or 5 guilds, there is the potential that a guild may get nothing at all. I would think this would discourage people from staying in that Tier, or from leaving Tier Two in some instances.

However, the problem then is maintaining the status of Tier One. Not all the guilds in Tier One would be able to maintain that status - I would assume that at any point in time there could exist about 4 Tier One guilds without it getting too crazy - and hence many would be bumped down to tier two in two months...and it would proceed like this as long as we allow the system to exist. If the Tier Two guilds at that point wanted to do something similar, so be it. There are checks and balances on each side...cooperation will get you what you want, but it will not indefinitely put a lock on what you want. Cooperation will have to continue.

[Funkutron5000]

Doraf, preventing access (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1251393&postcount=24) is the problem for tier2 and the solution for tier1. Tier1 has always been about preventing access (see 200 Traks). Tier2 is about allowing access. Rogean's proposal allows tier1 guilds to prevent access to amongst each other and allowing tier2 guilds to open access amongst each other. The Divinity proposal allows the same, it just includes tier1 guilds in the open access first half of the month.

The FE proposal is BACK to preventing access. FE was heavily involved in Rogean proposal negotiations until it was revealed FE would get MORE mobs from the Divinity proposal. Now FE releases its own proposal that's based on the Divinity plan, but walls off (however low that wall is) raids. This feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

So Corova, why are you locking those 4 out now? You weren't locking them out under the Rogean plan, and then you moved to the Divinity plan when you realized it would offer you more mobs than the Rogean plan. Again, this feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

It's about us looking to make a compromise between both the GM proposal and the Divinity one.

We're looking for a way that both opens up more mobs to the server while also providing a bit of reward for giving a higher effort.

[falkun]

Also, how can you claim that effort is not as necessary as before? The only reason its been less effort is because TMO's been on raid suspension. Whenever this all gets figured out, TMO is back in the raiding game. The effort will get ramped right back up because none of these proposals address PNP issues. These proposals ignore PNP because its difficult to make hard and fast rules. These proposals have 1 playground where tier2 can police itself, and another where tier1 can police itself. The tiers are likely to police themselves very differently, and the Divinity and Rogean plans make that entirely possible. With this FE plan, especially the unaddressed loophole I've discussed at length, mob domination is rewarded. Why would any guild want to leave up any FFA mobs? Doing so would preclude any other guild from raiding for two weeks, so they could rotate with themselves. Having a plan founded on mob domination is where this plan falls apart. The Rogean and Divinity plans, and even the new Nilbog plan, are not based on mob domination.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

We're looking for a way that both opens up more mobs to the server while also providing a bit of reward for giving a higher effort.

This I wholeheartedly support and agree with. Well said.

[falkun]

It's about us looking to make a compromise between both the GM proposal and the Divinity one.

We're looking for a way that both opens up more mobs to the server while also providing a bit of reward for giving a higher effort.

Except your plan isn't between the Rogean and Divinity plans. It looks more like this:
Full Rotation >> Divinity Plan > Rogean Plan > FE Plan >> Full FFA.

Your reward for higher effort is VP, which you get to keep as FFA and tier2 conceded it a while ago.

[Durka]

o Seversomething


^^ This gets a +1 from me.

[doraf]

Doraf, preventing access (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1251393&postcount=24) is the problem for tier2 and the solution for tier1. Tier1 has always been about preventing access (see 200 Traks). Tier2 is about allowing access. Rogean's proposal allows tier1 guilds to prevent access to amongst each other and allowing tier2 guilds to open access amongst each other. The Divinity proposal allows the same, it just includes tier1 guilds in the open access first half of the month.

The FE proposal is BACK to preventing access. FE was heavily involved in Rogean proposal negotiations until it was revealed FE would get MORE mobs from the Divinity proposal. Now FE releases its own proposal that's based on the Divinity plan, but walls off (however low that wall is) raids. This feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

So Corova, why are you locking those 4 out now? You weren't locking them out under the Rogean plan, and then you moved to the Divinity plan when you realized it would offer you more mobs than the Rogean plan. Again, this feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

So, this is Sloan as I think you know. My Tanthallas account has some issues, so Doraf let me use this in the mean time.

1. The access levels for all guilds are blown open with this proposal. I even said we were open to letting some of the FFA mobs which are necessary for the move from Tier one to Tier 2 be not allowed for Tier 1 guilds - this removes ANY CLAIM that Tier 1 guilds can lock anyone out, PERIOD. What this feels like is that YOU are simply bitching to bitch because there is very little to bitch about here.

2. We are not locking anything out. Noone will be able to lock Tier One from anyone - IF you have any CONSTRUCTIVE ways to give Tier Two openings to get to Tier One then put them forth - I have already said that we are perfectly willing to accept them. I understand that the past may have scarred you, but this is getting ridiculous.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Whether you agree with it or not, we are no longer letting one or two guilds kill everything.

Deal with it.

Discussions will be kept in the raid discussion forum now.

[-Catherin-]

all I read in this is that CT, Inny, VS, and Trakanon are considered the property of T1 (all epic mobs that matter basically) and if any of the tier 2 guilds even want to "see" one of them for a few seconds they are going to have to submit themselves to the same toxic environment that it was made clear will not be tolerated anymore. In other words business as it has been usual until now. Thanks for Maestro though.

[doraf]

all you motherfuckers got an extra chromosome or something? This shit ain't hard to understand.

[Hitpoint]

all I read in this is that CT, Inny, VS, and Trakanon are considered the property of T1 (all epic mobs that matter basically) and if any of the tier 2 guilds even want to "see" one of them for a few seconds they are going to have to submit themselves to the same toxic environment that it was made clear will not be tolerated anymore. In other words business as it has been usual until now. Thanks for Maestro though.

Tier 1 has two weeks of full rotation. How is that toxic? I feel like a lot of people are confusing this proposal with so many others that use the same terms. All you have to do is get two kills on the specified mobs in two months. Your guilds already do that. If anything tier 1 rotation is going to be flooded. Isn't this exactly what you want?

[-Catherin-]

If those tier 1 mobs are rotated among everyone and not just tier 1 guilds then fine. the post leaves a lot to be misinterpreted to that part.

While that doesn't still mean im on board with it, if that's the case I retract my statement and apologize for my misunderstanding and "extra chromosome"...

no need to be insulting about it

[Tanthallas]

T1 has the potential to get flooded; insofar as t2 guilds cooperate, especially if we add to this proposal a few FFA mobs every month that T1 guilds are not allowed to touch, this is a definite thing.

There is ZERO issue of mobility here, t2 guilds are not subject to anything near the 'same toxic environment' that existed before. How can you possibly read that here?

[doraf]

all you motherfuckers got an extra chromosome or something? This shit ain't hard to understand.

^^ Me, Real Doraf.

Sloan is much nicer than I am.

[Tanthallas]

If those tier 1 mobs are rotated among everyone and not just tier 1 guilds then fine. the post leaves a lot to be misinterpreted to that part.

While that doesn't still mean im on board with it, if that's the case I retract my statement and apologize for my misunderstanding and "extra chromosome"...

The tiers are open for guilds to come and go catherin, and the requirements of entering any which tier are not being set up such that tier 1 guilds are able to completely cock block tier 2 guilds from joining t1 - we want to set it up in a way that allows for some mobility such that if t2 guilds try, they can move to tier one without even the ability of tier one guilds to hinder that. Now if T2 guilds hinder eachother, well, thats a different story - but noone is worried about that, people are worried about the big bad t1 poopsockers.

[Hitpoint]

If those tier 1 mobs are rotated among everyone and not just tier 1 guilds then fine. the post leaves a lot to be misinterpreted to that part.

While that doesn't still mean im on board with it, if that's the case I retract my statement and apologize for my misunderstanding and "extra chromosome"...

no need to be insulting about it

If you can kill two of these, during the FFA portions of two months, then you can be tier 1 and you can rotate on the first four.

o Trak
o VS
o CT
o Inny
o Talendor
o Gorenaire
o Seversomething

[-Catherin-]

If you can kill two of these, during the FFA portions of two months, then you can be tier 1 and you can rotate on the first four.

wait, so you do have to be tier 1 and be subject to tier 1 style raiding to be on your rotation for trak, VS, Inny, and CT? if that is the case then I did not misunderstand.

the point is that the tier 2 guilds don't WANT to be tier 1 guilds, and do not want to be subject to tier 1 guild raidstyle. It is not enjoyable to us and we simply cant do it anyways. that's what eventually lead to all of this in the first place

[Funkutron5000]

wait, so you do have to be tier 1 and be subject to tier 1 style raiding to be on your rotation for trak, VS, Inny, and CT? if that is the case then I did not misunderstand.

the point is that the tier 2 guilds don't WANT to be tier 1 guilds, and do not want to be subject to tier 1 guild raidstyle. that's what eventually lead to all of this in the first place

The tiers are open for guilds to come and go catherin, and the requirements of entering any which tier are not being set up such that tier 1 guilds are able to completely cock block tier 2 guilds from joining t1 - we want to set it up in a way that allows for some mobility such that if t2 guilds try, they can move to tier one without even the ability of tier one guilds to hinder that. Now if T2 guilds hinder eachother, well, thats a different story - but noone is worried about that, people are worried about the big bad t1 poopsockers.

[Tanthallas]

wait, so you do have to be tier 1 and be subject to tier 1 style raiding to be on your rotation for trak, VS, Inny, and CT? if that is the case then I did not misunderstand.

the point is that the tier 2 guilds don't WANT to be tier 1 guilds, and do not want to be subject to tier 1 guild raidstyle. It is not enjoyable to us and we simply cant do it anyways. that's what eventually lead to all of this in the first place

No catherin, you will be in a tier 1 rotation for the first two weeks of the month, just the same as the tier 2 rotation that would exist for the first 2 weeks of the month. You will not be subject to any raiding style you do not want, unless you are saying you do not want rotations.

From there on, you can maintain your position as t1 or move down to t2 depending on your actions in the FFA periods. It will be harder for a t1 guild to maintain its position in t1 than it will be for a t2 guild to enter t1 because we are saying that we can modify this to add that t1 guilds will not be eligible to kill a few FFA mobs during the FFA period. This means that t2 progression to t1 will not be blocked by anyone but t2 guilds themselves; seeing as FE / IB / TMO are the only ones that t2 guilds are worried about, or so they say, then their progression to t1 rotations is completely independent of these guilds blocking them.

And I would add that it is not necessarily going to be beneficial to always be on T1 rotation. Not only is there the potential for mobility here, but there will be mobility - especially if one Tier gets crowded.

[doraf]

wait, so you do have to be tier 1 and be subject to tier 1 style raiding to be on your rotation for trak, VS, Inny, and CT? if that is the case then I did not misunderstand.

the point is that the tier 2 guilds don't WANT to be tier 1 guilds, and do not want to be subject to tier 1 guild raidstyle. It is not enjoyable to us and we simply cant do it anyways. that's what eventually lead to all of this in the first place

Then go play Guildwars2 or Rift, not Classic Everquest. There is a reason it's call everquest. Because it might take forever for some of you to get an epic. You think McQuaid and gang were sitting around VI headquarters flipping a coin between Everquest or Welfarequest as the name?

[Alarti0001]

Then go play Guildwars2 or Rift, not Classic Everquest. There is a reason it's call everquest. Because it might take forever for some of you to get an epic. You think McQuaid and gang were sitting around VI headquarters flipping a coin between Everquest or Welfarequest as the name?

They could also play Post POP everquest!

[Tanthallas]

Disclaimer, Doraf is now Doraf lol

[Kope]

You think McQuaid and gang were sitting around VI headquarters flipping a coin between Everquest or Welfarequest as the name?

Oh, then let's not go with the rotation situation, let's go with the staff submitted proposal where you guys can play all the competitionquest you want and we can do our thing :).

[Erati]

Then go play Guildwars2 or Rift, not Classic Everquest. There is a reason it's call everquest. Because it might take forever for some of you to get an epic. You think McQuaid and gang were sitting around VI headquarters flipping a coin between Everquest or Welfarequest as the name?

again

why do u guys love telling others how to play Everquest?

I bought the Prima guide, and while there were some strange entries no where described poopsocking,parked alt armies,batphones,petition wars...

[-Catherin-]

Then go play Guildwars2 or Rift, not Classic Everquest. There is a reason it's call everquest. Because it might take forever for some of you to get an epic. You think McQuaid and gang were sitting around VI headquarters flipping a coin between Everquest or Welfarequest as the name?

TY for clearing up your position to me. back to not even considering this ;) I just tried to attempt to keep an open mind and understand what you guys are trying to do, however your abusive attitude makes that impossible, just like how you treat the other raiding guilds. fuck me for actually attempting to understand and hear you out lol.

[baramur]

In easy words it may be more beneficial to be in t2 and share more mobs with less people then be in t1 getting the highest end mobs, but less quantity.

Also the only guilds that are able to keep you from tier 1 would be competing tier 2 guilds. Which means you will have to work somewhat, but not under the conditions that you so hate. This is basically saying do you want 1 or 2 trak/ct or do you want maybe more t2 mobs. It means if a bunch jump to t1, you may be stealthy and go t2 and mop up.

[Ciroco]

Guilds are going to have a tough time breaking into T2, let alone T1. New guilds won't have the organization/force/tracking/poopsockability to get to mobs before anyone else in a FFA period, and as much as I'm sure the T2 guilds are for cooperation, no one is going to be able to organize letting another guild have a shot at the mob, especially if T1 guilds are also involved.

[baramur]

This system is no different then divinity's besides the fact it breaks mobs up between best/hardest to easier lol. Just says in order to get the best loot in game, you should have to atleast try a little, not alot, just a little. It means not everyone can just show up and roll for trak every 2 weeks, without first putting in a little work. How is it fair a guild that has never even tried at anything be given an equal chance to say a guild like Taken who atleast puts in effort. So if a new guild joins the server they should automatically get to roll for trak.

[Fuddwin]

again

why do u guys love telling others how to play Everquest?

I bought the Prima guide, and while there were some strange entries no where described poopsocking,parked alt armies,batphones,petition wars...


It's been said quite a few times concerning the fact that someone is trying to tell someone else how to play EQ? But yet, it's ok for YOU to tell someone else how to play? Like I said in a post in another thread, in not these exact words, this will be a never ending discussion and everyone is gonna have to agree to disagree... But I'm not telling you to do so...

No one is telling you how to play... Merely suggesting certain things that would seem to some fair... Taken for instance, has gotten the last few Inny's... Did someone tell them had to play a certain way to get Inny? No... Did they do what was needed? Yes... FE/IB has done what was needed to compete with TMO... And succeeded... Now.. If Taken wants to camp at Trak and batphone the spawn, they can... Will they get it as easily as Inny? Prolly not.. But who knows anything until they try?

/rant

Poor "Casuals" (Variety)

[doraf]

Or leaders of other guilds grow a pair and get your members to participate in killing shit instead of farming FBSS's in LGuk all day/night.

You boot those people, not make them officers.

[Exmo]

It's been said quite a few times concerning the fact that someone is trying to tell someone else how to play EQ? But yet, it's ok for YOU to tell someone else how to play? Like I said in a post in another thread, in not these exact words, this will be a never ending discussion and everyone is gonna have to agree to disagree... But I'm not telling you to do so...

Nope. Owners of the server are telling everyone TMO/FE are playing it wrong. We're just trying to figure out how to go forward.

This isn't the way.

[Mezzmur]

This system is no different then divinity's besides the fact it breaks mobs up between best/hardest to easier lol. Just says in order to get the best loot in game, you should have to atleast try a little, not alot, just a little. It means not everyone can just show up and roll for trak every 2 weeks, without first putting in a little work. How is it fair a guild that has never even tried at anything be given an equal chance to say a guild like Taken who atleast puts in effort. So if a new guild joins the server they should automatically get to roll for trak.

+1

Plan seems fair yet actually requires a slight bit of effort.

[Kope]

It's been said quite a few times concerning the fact that someone is trying to tell someone else how to play EQ? But yet, it's ok for YOU to tell someone else how to play? Like I said in a post in another thread, in not these exact words, this will be a never ending discussion and everyone is gonna have to agree to disagree... But I'm not telling you to do so...

It doesn't at all have to be that way. The Staff proposed plan lets you play the way you want, while it lets the tier 2 guilds play the way they want. No one is dictating how the other side should play, at all. Everyone gets what they want, everyone gets loot/dragons and the tier 1 teams get to compete without forcing everyone else into their playstyle.

[arsenalpow]

It doesn't at all have to be that way. The Staff proposed plan lets you play the way you want, while it lets the tier 2 guilds play the way they want. No one is dictating how the other side should play, at all. Everyone gets what they want, everyone gets loot/dragons and the tier 1 teams get to compete without forcing everyone else into their playstyle.

That

[Tanthallas]

It doesn't at all have to be that way. The Staff proposed plan lets you play the way you want, while it lets the tier 2 guilds play the way they want. No one is dictating how the other side should play, at all. Everyone gets what they want, everyone gets loot/dragons and the tier 1 teams get to compete without forcing everyone else into their playstyle.

You really need to reread the staff plan. I took the tiered system DIRECTLY from the staff plan. The only difference is Rogean said that the details of how the tiers were to be structured and how to move between tiers had yet to be worked out. I provided a very simple way for these details to be worked out.

Now, please stop throwing around rainbows with helmets on them and discuss what is actually being said here. HOW does the staff system let you 'play how you want to' and this system does not - do you even know WHAT the staff systems tiered progression is based on? HOW does this system limit you in a way that is unacceptable, both in relation to other plans and in relation to how things were? The sooner you let us know these RELEVANT issues, the sooner we can begin to have a more fruitful discussion.

[Kope]

You really need to reread the staff plan. I took the tiered system DIRECTLY from the staff plan. The only difference is Rogean said that the details of how the tiers were to be structured and how to move between tiers had yet to be worked out. I provided a very simple way for these details to be worked out.

Now, please stop throwing around rainbows with helmets on them and discuss what is actually being said here. HOW does the staff system let you 'play how you want to' and this system does not - do you even know WHAT the staff systems tiered progression is based on?

Because with the staff plan no one has to compete with the tier 1 guilds unless they choose to. In your plan the last half of the month you're forcing anyone that wants anything to do with raiding into your playstyle. We don't want anything to do with that anymore, however we would prefer not to stop you from playing what way you want to.

We want you to have fun and play the way you want, why is it not ok for us to play the way we want while not infringing on your playstyle at all?

[Mezzmur]

The only given in the staff plan (as I read it) is that it's highly likely to be a 4 guild rotation with FTE races. That's not to say that tier 2 couldn't have a rotation on the odd weeks, but that's up to them. What this plan adds is what mobs are in Tier 1 & Tier 2's pools, it seems.

[Erati]

It's been said quite a few times concerning the fact that someone is trying to tell someone else how to play EQ? But yet, it's ok for YOU to tell someone else how to play? Like I said in a post in another thread, in not these exact words, this will be a never ending discussion and everyone is gonna have to agree to disagree... But I'm not telling you to do so...

No one is telling you how to play... Merely suggesting certain things that would seem to some fair... Taken for instance, has gotten the last few Inny's... Did someone tell them had to play a certain way to get Inny? No... Did they do what was needed? Yes... FE/IB has done what was needed to compete with TMO... And succeeded... Now.. If Taken wants to camp at Trak and batphone the spawn, they can... Will they get it as easily as Inny? Prolly not.. But who knows anything until they try?

/rant

Poor "Casuals" (Variety)

woah there

was just quoting your buddy yelling at someone to play a dif game bc they didnt want to play EQ his way.

No where can you find a definition of how to play EQ, so its funny to me that people get offended and say "find a different game that isnt how you play Everquest"

what they mean is "that isnt how I play Everquest"

[Kope]

The only given in the staff plan (as I read it) is that it's highly likely to be a 4 guild rotation with FTE races. That's not to say that tier 2 couldn't have a rotation on the odd weeks, but that's up to them. What this plan adds is what mobs are in Tier 1 & Tier 2's pools, it seems.

Let Tier 2 worry about Tier 2, Tier 1 worry about Tier 1.

You guys can play however you want and we will not worry about it, we won't stop you. Please, enjoy the game the way you want. The only thing we're asking for is the exact same thing, the ability to play our way and figure out solutions to our own problems, that's it.

[Ella`Ella]

The bottom line here is the tier 2 guilds really aren't willing to negotiate with tier 1 guilds. Tier 2 have only offered the divinity plan and have insisted the tier 1 guilds adhere to it absolutely with no modification whereas the numerous proposals by the tier 1 guilds continue to be chastised regardless of how many modifications and concessions have been made in favor of the tier 2's. This isn't a negotiation, it's holding the tier 1's hostage for a pound of flesh for past transgressions.

[Tanthallas]

Let Tier 2 worry about Tier 2, Tier 1 worry about Tier 1.

You guys can play however you want and we will not worry about it, we won't stop you. Please, enjoy the game the way you want. The only thing we're asking for is the exact same thing, the ability to play our way and figure out solutions to our own problems, that's it.


I mean...that is exactly what I proposed here. It is THE SAME as the staff proposal with the details filled in about how the tiered system would progress, however mixed with the Divinity proposal in regards to quasi rotations.

Let the people who are actually trying to build something here build something, and the people who are not not.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Nope. Owners of the server are telling everyone TMO/FE are playing it wrong. We're just trying to figure out how to go forward.

This isn't the way.

I keep seeing insinuations that these talks are forced because of how the hardcores are "wrong." Misinformation does the conversation no services.

These talks are not a result of philosophical differences between the staff and the hardcores. They are a result of situation that led to too much work on the part of the staff. That they want the hardcore to accommodate the casual is a secondary consideration.

i think its cute that so many people think this change is happening because GuildA or GuildB gets too many kills.

This is only happening because every single raid for the last month or two has ended with PetitionQuest, and the CSR team has actual players that need actual help to deal with.

if it wasn't for the petition quest, and if these folks would have been able not train and/or to respect other people's FTE, we wouldnt even be having these discussions.

It is certainly true that it is fair for the hardcores to compete while allowing meaningful participation from the casual, but this concept is not the origin of these talks. Do not claim moral authority for your stance because you inappropriately think that's where the staff philosophically sits.

[-Catherin-]

Raid Scene
It continues to be an aggravating realization among CSR staff that 10% of the server population causes 90% of the problems. We are all for competition, but it needs to be fair competition. We are also all here for the same thing, to experience classic Everquest. The same guild monopolizing raid content for 2 years that they might not even need anymore is ridiculous, just to block other guilds from the chance of gearing up to take on the same end game content.

I was thinking to myself the other day and I came to ask myself.. Are we providing this server to give people the arena to compete to such bitter extremes that it has resorted to taking every absolute measure to be victorious, or are we here to provide a classic Everquest experience for everyone to enjoy?

A lot of you make fun of it in your own terms, but it really does come down to fighting over very old content.

Either way, we're tired of the constant bickering, the training, the ninja looting, and all the other bullshit that's going on. So here's what we're going to do.

Starting today and then evaluated when Velious is released the CSR staff will be keeping track of how the raid guilds are treating eachother. If we do not see a significant improvement in the behavior of the raiding guilds and how they treat eachother, Velious will be released without raid content. To be clear, we want an enjoyable raid scene for everyone, not just one or two guilds. This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.

Don't think that this means you can continue shitting on each other and just not petition, the staff will still be watching.

[falkun]

The bottom line here is the tier 2 guilds really aren't willing to negotiate with tier 1 guilds. Tier 2 have only offered the divinity plan and have insisted the tier 1 guilds adhere to it absolutely with no modification whereas the numerous proposals by the tier 1 guilds continue to be chastised regardless of how many modifications and concessions have been made in favor of the tier 2's. This isn't a negotiation, it's holding the tier 1's hostage for a pound of flesh for past transgressions.

Let Tier 2 worry about Tier 2, Tier 1 worry about Tier 1.

You guys can play however you want and we will not worry about it, we won't stop you. Please, enjoy the game the way you want. The only thing we're asking for is the exact same thing, the ability to play our way and figure out solutions to our own problems, that's it.

Unbrella, listen to Kope here. If tier2 wanted a pound of flesh, we'd ask for mobs so that every guild gets equal # of mobs. Look at Loraen's numbers, tier2 is asking to split 50% of the kills outside VP amongst 70+% of the population while the other 30% gets 50% of the non-VP kills and ALL of VP. Tier2 has their little playground, and tier1 has theirs over in another part of the yard. As Chest said, keep the peanut butter away from the chocolate.

[oddibemcd]

I keep seeing insinuations that these talks are forced because of how the hardcores are "wrong." Misinformation does the conversation no services.

These talks are not a result of philosophical differences between the staff and the hardcores. They are a result of situation that led to too much work on the part of the staff. That they want the hardcore to accommodate the casual is a secondary consideration.



It is certainly true that it is fair for the hardcores to compete while allowing meaningful participation from the casual, but this concept is not the origin of these talks. Do not claim moral authority for your stance because you inappropriately think that's where the staff philosophically sits.

The bottom line here is the tier 2 guilds really aren't willing to negotiate with tier 1 guilds. Tier 2 have only offered the divinity plan and have insisted the tier 1 guilds adhere to it absolutely with no modification whereas the numerous proposals by the tier 1 guilds continue to be chastised regardless of how many modifications and concessions have been made in favor of the tier 2's. This isn't a negotiation, it's holding the tier 1's hostage for a pound of flesh for past transgressions.

Then just go with the staff plan if it's not trying to punish for past transgressions and if the tier 2 guilds haven't bent enough on the Divinity plan.

[Kope]

This will most likely be my last response because I feel like I'm getting trolled at this point. I'm only trying to figure out a way everyone can get the most out of their game.

The bottom line here is the tier 2 guilds really aren't willing to negotiate with tier 1 guilds. Tier 2 have only offered the divinity plan and have insisted the tier 1 guilds adhere to it absolutely with no modification whereas the numerous proposals by the tier 1 guilds continue to be chastised regardless of how many modifications and concessions have been made in favor of the tier 2's. This isn't a negotiation, it's holding the tier 1's hostage for a pound of flesh for past transgressions.

Our proposal gave us less than half of a month of a rotation of mobs outside of VP which you were included in. You could most likely get 70% of the mobs in any given month and you guys shot that down, without question every single time, because of competition sake. After this happened Rogean comes up with a plan that would allow you guys to have all the competition you wanted between every guild that wants it, period. ANYONE who wants to do it can, no exceptions, but anyone who wants no part of it isn't forced into it.

You came up with plans that gave FFA mobs to the non Tier 1 guilds (sans Trak, VS and sometimes CT, or sometimes Inny) for 1 week, the rest of the time you wanted to force us to compete with you for it (which most everyone isn't even trying to do). We weren't holding anything hostage, we came up with a plan where we thought we were losing out and you STILL said no, so yeah we're not going to negotiate down from a deal that automatically favors you to be forced into the same type of raidscene > 50% of the time we play the game.

I mean...that is exactly what I proposed here. It is THE SAME as the staff proposal with the details filled in about how the tiered system would progress.

Let the people who are actually trying to build something here build something, and the people who are not not.

No, it's not. In the staff system you don't have to be Tier 1 unless you want to (or any set of prerequisites are fulfilled). In your plan you're forcing guilds that DO NOT WANT anything to do with that, to deal with that.

How would you feel about a rotation 100% of the time? No? We know that, that's why we didn't offer it, it wouldn't be fair. Why not play the way you want, and let us play without having to deal with your playstyle?

[Kennie]

Nice kid's table solution.

[Ciroco]

You really need to reread the staff plan. I took the tiered system DIRECTLY from the staff plan. The only difference is Rogean said that the details of how the tiers were to be structured and how to move between tiers had yet to be worked out. I provided a very simple way for these details to be worked out.

Now, please stop throwing around rainbows with helmets on them and discuss what is actually being said here. HOW does the staff system let you 'play how you want to' and this system does not - do you even know WHAT the staff systems tiered progression is based on? HOW does this system limit you in a way that is unacceptable, both in relation to other plans and in relation to how things were? The sooner you let us know these RELEVANT issues, the sooner we can begin to have a more fruitful discussion.

I'm not supportive of the staff suggestion, but let's not pretend that's the only major difference. The removal of T1/T2 lockouts and tier requirements are big changes.

[-Catherin-]

they don't want the staff plan because it gives them less opportunity to demonstrate their superior prowess over us lesser guilds. what fun is their competition when there is so many less guilds that they can "compete" with and defeat. withdrawing now. I'm sure I won't be missed. GL ;)

[Tanthallas]

Unbrella, listen to Kope here. If tier2 wanted a pound of flesh, we'd ask for mobs so that every guild gets equal # of mobs. Look at Loraen's numbers, tier2 is asking to split 50% of the kills outside VP amongst 70+% of the population while the other 30% gets 50% of the non-VP kills and ALL of VP. Tier2 has their little playground, and tier1 has theirs over in another part of the yard. As Chest said, keep the peanut butter away from the chocolate.

Listen to Kobe? The guy who denied tooth and nail a plan that would give tier2 the majority of the mobs every week and a very easy way to progress to tier1 if they so desired? Giving tier2 their 'little playground' and the ability to be mobile to tier1 without having to deal with tier1 cockblocking them? Literally the straight middle ground between the GM plan and the Divinity plan.

Deajay, you have become just as delusional as the rest now. Either you guys want to compromise or you dont, and as far as I see it you are not here to compromise, you are here to make demands.

[arsenalpow]

I would like to strike the peanut butter chocolate analogy from the record, I've been told that peanut butter and chocolate are delicious together thus making for a very poor example. I apologize.

[Lazie]

You really do not understand the situation as well as you believe you do. Does the staff want a healthier environment where guilds can experience content and progress ? Yes. Do they want it simply because the lower guilds want it ? Nope. They want it because a player made agreement in the long run is less work on the staff. Now Sloans is the best compromise I have seen of all the systems so far. Both sides have to come off what they are asking for and it seems to meet exactly in the middle. I don't know what to say past that... I mean they met you guys in the middle and you guys keep asking for more.

[Tanthallas]

I'm not supportive of the staff suggestion, but let's not pretend that's the only major difference. The removal of T1/T2 lockouts and tier requirements are big changes.

The staff plan is nothing without a definition of tier mobility and requirements, which they do not have.

The second you add the details to the tiers, it seems everyone has a problem with what they had no problem with before.

[arsenalpow]

At this point I advise any negotiating party to withdraw from posting in public chat. We can talk about these proposals in raid chat away from the trolling.

[Ciroco]

The staff plan is nothing without a definition of tier mobility and requirements, which they do not have.

And your suggestion requires competing in what is basically the current raid scene just to get into a tier. Do you expect up and coming guilds to sign off on that?

[Hitpoint]

And your suggestion requires competing in what is basically the current raid scene just to get into a tier. Do you expect up and coming guilds to sign off on that?

He's probably posted three different times that some of those mobs can be left off limits from tier 1 guild for the purposes of allowing tier 2 guilds access to tier 1.

[radditsu]

At this point I advise any negotiating party to withdraw from posting in public chat. We can talk about these proposals in raid chat away from the trolling.

Aww

[oddibemcd]

He's probably posted three different times that some of those mobs can be left off limits from tier 1 guild for the purposes of allowing tier 2 guilds access to tier 1.

He's got UNDER FFA CONDITIONS in all caps in the opening post.

[Ciroco]

He's probably posted three different times that some of those mobs can be left off limits from tier 1 guild for the purposes of allowing tier 2 guilds access to tier 1.

Yes, I know. I'm talking about guilds getting into tier 2, which would require cooperation between both tiers to leave alone. Plus then you're dealing with a probably smaller and inexperienced raidforce, so how many shots do they get?

[Lazie]

And your suggestion requires competing in what is basically the current raid scene just to get into a tier. Do you expect up and coming guilds to sign off on that?

His system doesn't say you have to compete that way. His system leaves room for the guilds in that Tier to handle those spawns however they like. If they want to rotate them...rotate them. He only adds requirements for getting into Tiers that takes at least some work. BTW I am sure repop days count as FFA conditions. Most guilds can camp out for one spawn or get to a spawn before the bigger guilds under that format. Last repop alone Divinity,BDA and Taken all killed mobs on the repop...AG attempted one.

[Ciroco]

I think you misread my post Lazie :(

[Hitpoint]

Yes, I know. I'm talking about guilds getting into tier 2, which would require cooperation between both tiers to leave alone. Plus then you're dealing with a probably smaller and inexperienced raidforce, so how many shots do they get?

Why are we even talking about access to tier 2? Nothing could be easier. Any guild that actually tries, and can't manage a Draco or maestro kill shouldn't be on the rotation. Especially when T1 guilds have agreed not to touch them.

[Lazie]

I think you misread my post Lazie :(

I didn't. Maestro and Draco won't be touched by the larger guilds... I am sure if you want to attempt to make Tier 2 then request a shot from the Tier 2 guilds. Those mobs can spawn 5 times combined in a week depending how spawns goes.

[Tanthallas]

He's got UNDER FFA CONDITIONS in all caps in the opening post.

See, children, this is why we discuss and PROGRESS. I had in the agreement under FFA conditions, however during this DISCUSSION I MADE IT 100% CLEAR that we can easily modify this such that there can be certain mobs that are FFA for only t2 guilds - so that they can progress without competing over FFA mobs with t1 guilds.

As far as Kobe's statement, yet again my friend you need to start reading. Noone is forced to compete under t1 or t2 - there are ROTATIONS within each tier for the first half of the month. T1 cannot touch t2 mobs, and vice versa, for the first half of the month. Noone is subjecting you to anything you dont want to be subject to, unless you do not want to be subject to rotations. Well, if you dont want to be subject to rotations, then you have two whole weeks a month to cutt-throat FTE raid!

There will be rotations for the first half of the month, as divinity proposed, and the second half will be complete FFA where the tiers are irrelevant.

[Ciroco]

Why are we even talking about access to tier 2? Nothing could be easier. Any guild that actually tries, and can't manage a Draco or maestro kill shouldn't be on the rotation. Especially when T1 guilds have agreed not to touch them.

Where in this proposal does it say that T1 guilds have agreed not to touch them?

Either way, it doesn't make sense that you have to compete for mobs in order to get to a place where you no longer have to compete for the same mobs.

[Tanthallas]

I didn't. Maestro and Draco won't be touched by the larger guilds... I am sure if you want to attempt to make Tier 2 then request a shot from the Tier 2 guilds. Those mobs can spawn 5 times combined in a week depending how spawns goes.

Exactly.

Tier One is willing to put definite limits on its ability to infringe on some movement from t2 to t1, however it is all up to t2 people to limit themselves in this way to let new guilds into their tier.

[Hitpoint]

Where in this proposal does it say that T1 guilds have agreed not to touch them?

Either way, it doesn't make sense that you have to compete for mobs in order to get to a place where you no longer have to compete for the same mobs.

It's not in the OP. I said Sloan made several responses that say it's something we could work out. I could go through and quote them all, but I've spent too much time trying to reiterate this thread to people already. This is my original post.

He's probably posted three different times that some of those mobs can be left off limits from tier 1 guild for the purposes of allowing tier 2 guilds access to tier 1.

Now read the rest of the thread.

And it absolutely makes sense that you have to earn your place to get free mobs. Every rotation that I've ever heard of on live had some sort of way to prove yourself so you could enter a rotation. You don't just make a guild and get in automatically. More people in a rotation = more people rotating = less mobs to go around. You have to earn that spot. And this is just about the easiest entrance test I've ever seen.

[Lazie]

Where in this proposal does it say that T1 guilds have agreed not to touch them?

Either way, it doesn't make sense that you have to compete for mobs in order to get to a place where you no longer have to compete for the same mobs.

...WOW What part of 2 week rotation/2 week FFA aren't you understanding ? In 2 weeks time Draco and Maestro combined can spawn 10 times depending on spawns...I am sure any Tier 2 guild would be happy to give a guild a shot at one to see if they can kill it and make the cut. It still takes a little work though...Like knowing when the mob is up... Porting to the mob... Killing the mob. People can't do all the work for ya.

[Hitpoint]

Either way, it doesn't make sense that you have to compete for mobs in order to get to a place where you no longer have to compete for the same mobs.

My favorite example. I remember a guild on live during luclin. If you wanted in on a VT rotation you needed a certain number of Emporer kills, and you needed a screenshot of all your keyed members standing in VT. There needed to be enough of them for you to qualify for a rotation.

[Ciroco]

All I've seen is the possibility of T1 allowing T2 guilds to have a shot at T1 mobs; as far as I can tell, there's nothing about backing off of T2 mobs during FFA, but if that's implied, fine. I just wasn't going to assume that given that very recently these guilds were leapfrogging others for draco and Maestro kills.

My favorite example. I remember a guild on live during luclin. If you wanted in on a VT rotation you needed a certain number of Emporer kills, and you needed a screenshot of all your keyed members standing in VT. There needed to be enough of them for you to qualify for a rotation.

That's how it should be; it's a natural progression. If we're sure that guilds will be given ample chances to break into T2, having to kill a T2 mob is fine. Making them race every other guild doesn't make sense.

[Tanthallas]

That's how it should be; it's a natural progression. If we're sure that guilds will be given ample chances to break into T2, having to kill a T2 mob is fine. Making them race every other guild doesn't make sense.

The entrance into t2 is for the t2 guilds to decide. I have already addressed what the t1 guilds would potentially be willing to do to allow t2 a chance at entry to t1, unhindered by t1.

[Hitpoint]

That's how it should be; it's a natural progression. If we're sure that guilds will be given ample chances to break into T2, having to kill a T2 mob is fine. Making them race every other guild doesn't make sense.

They did have to race other guilds to emperor though.

[Ciroco]

They did have to race other guilds to emperor though.

Just a guess, but I'm going to venture that it wasn't as cut-throat there as it is here. Even if it was, it's not the same as this proposal is without cooperation from both T1 and T2 guilds. The same would be racing for an Emperor kill to be placed on an Emperor rotation.

[Hitpoint]

Just a guess, but I'm going to venture that it wasn't as cut-throat there as it is here. Even if it was, it's not the same as this proposal is without cooperation from both T1 and T2 guilds. The same would be racing for an Emperor kill to be placed on an Emperor rotation.

I have no idea of it was as cut throat as here, probably not. Those guilds were pretty hardcore though, and I remember suspensions being handed out for emp shenanigans. Emp was actually a very hard mob, harder than VT. I'd compare it to killing Gore to get in a tier 2 rotation here.