Lock Server Until an Agreement is Met

[Elements]

Less raid heavy guilds holding the raid heavy guilds hostage by not even offering any sort of compromise is silly. If you truly want all the guilds to come together and form an agreement it shouldn't be the raid guilds "suspended" allowing the more casuals to hold them hostage. Lock the server until its hashed out if you truly think its possible for this group of entitled trolls to come to some sort of agreement.

[Alorae]

Let me be the first to say "fuck that".

[Byrjun]

Good, more spam for the forum.

[Alarti0001]

Even better, force us to play on Red.... ugh

[Mac Dretti]

Even better, force us to play on Red.... ugh

Sirkens true intentions.

Feels good to see you dread having to do more than afk auto attack 15 year old artificial intelligence.

[Funkutron5000]

Even better, force us to play on Red.... ugh

Rebirth server, here I come!

[-Catherin-]

Except a compromise was offered last night in a vent conversation among the guild reps, which the majority is on board with ;)

Just thought I would clear that part up.

[Erati]

Less raid heavy guilds holding the raid heavy guilds hostage by not even offering any sort of compromise is silly. If you truly want all the guilds to come together and form an agreement it shouldn't be the raid guilds "suspended" allowing the more casuals to hold them hostage. Lock the server until its hashed out if you truly think its possible for this group of entitled trolls to come to some sort of agreement.

RAWR dirty casuals QQQQQQQQQQQ

if the hardcores want the server to come together to an agreement maybe ced agreement should NOT start off by saying

"We are better than everyone, TierA/1/Whatever and everyone else ( who you need to be able to raid/come to agreement) is TierB/2/Casual Scum/'No Effort' Lazies "

sorry that is not how to extend your hand across the aisle to try to work for a solution for this COMMUNITY .... this agreement is not just to let us raid Jan 2 or whatever...

[Alarti0001]

Except a compromise was offered last night in a vent conversation among the guild reps, which the majority is on board with ;)

Just thought I would clear that part up.

Except it wasn't a compromise it was a dictation of terms... which is highly laughable.

[falkun]

5 of 9 guilds is a majority. 2 of 9 guilds is a dictation of terms.

[kotton05]

More like wipe the server if agreement not met

[Alarti0001]

5 of 9 guilds is a majority. 2 of 9 guilds is a dictation of terms.

9 guilds isnt a correct total :)

Majority is also not synonymous with compromise.

[kotton05]

And you other dudes should compromise, you are gonna go from killing jack to a few kills a month even more for some I bet...

[Mac Dretti]

http://brooklynactivemama.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/74110-oh-yeah-gif-Obama-b86q.gif

[Yinikren]

5 of 9 guilds is a majority. 2 of 9 guilds is a dictation of terms.

You're my favorite poster today.

[Frogie305]

And you other dudes should compromise, you are gonna go from killing jack to a few kills a month even more for some I bet...

This^, Me and Merkk can go back to iskar lovin in VP.

[Aaron]

How about we ban people that post useless and worthless threads?

[Mac Dretti]

http://i0.wp.com/insidejamarifox.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2_gif.gif?resize=500%2C269

[Reguiy]

Worst suggestion...ever. The staff wants the RAID SCENE to shape up. Not the monk in Blackburrrow using 2 crack staffs and a bunch of cloth armor, ya moran.

[Mac Dretti]

So am I allowed to train and FTE grief if I'm in Blackburrow w 2 cracked staffs amd cloth?

[Yinikren]

9 guilds isnt a correct total :)

Majority is also not synonymous with compromise.

TMO, FE, IB, Taken, BDA, Divinity, Azure Guard, Europa, A team.

Those are just the raid capable ones.

[kotton05]

It's all Sexgar's fault.

But really there isn't much more that can be proposed and I heard the nay Sayers to the proposal declined over a 7 day window where we would let them have a shot at top tier mobs cause they wanted 14 days. So we said 10 let's split it.... But the crack staff in blackburrow must has 4 more days or else.

[Elements]

proposal to fix p99. all raid mobs pop every 60 minutes. yay we all win!

[Elements]

It's all Sexgar's fault.

But really there isn't much more that can be proposed and I heard the nay Sayers to the proposal declined over a 7 day window where we would let them have a shot at top tier mobs cause they wanted 14 days. So we said 10 let's split it.... But the crack staff in blackburrow must has 4 more days or else.

why not just go first spawn of the month uncontested (first two traks) by guilds who get more than 2 raid targets in the previous month

and hope we get some monthly server repops to boot.

[kotton05]

If bda div etc are so interested. Have all the no votes found their proposal then???? Cause that's what id be doing if I was yall

[Alarti0001]

TMO, FE, IB, Taken, BDA, Divinity, Azure Guard, Europa, A team.

Those are just the raid capable ones.

I see many more raid capable guilds. Even some I would deem more capable then some on that list.

[kotton05]

Things like this are lobbied and back n forth... Not just "no you're a dictator, rogean plz suspend" need. To see this as almost a mutual debate kind of.

[-Catherin-]

I see many more raid capable guilds. Even some I would deem more capable then some on that list.

So it's an even greater majority then. got it!

[Alarti0001]

So it's an even greater majority then. got it!

You think so? You can claim a majority, but I doubt you can present a proper majority.

[Aaron]

Who are the other raid guilds? Lord Bob is the only one I can think of.

By raid guilds, I assume it's a guild that raids, which is planes, epic mobs, etc.

[Elements]

I really see no reason why having alts in multiple guilds should be an offence and I see no server rules against it. If a person has the time to level, gear, and raid with multiple toons in multiple guilds then they should be able to. If these people want to see the outcome of a bag limit, or point system or some other "I am a person and therefor deserver equity" -based system then let them see the outcome of everyone having multiple toons in multiple guilds by months end once such a system is implemented. And for those claiming the GMs could police it.... you are fools. VPN, multiple IPs... shit just will not work.

[Alarti0001]

Who are the other raid guilds? Lord Bob is the only one I can think of.

By raid guilds, I assume it's a guild that raids, which is planes, epic mobs, etc.

I guess your definition of a raid guild is different than others
Planar clears aren't raids. 1 group content.

So raid guilds FE/IB/TMO/BDA/Taken.

3v2

[Aaron]

I don't know what you're trying to say, but I was asking a question as to the other raid guilds you're speaking about.

I don't know why you're tied up in semantics. Who are the raid guilds?

This isn't RnF and I'm not trying to argue with you. Don't know why you guys turn every thread into RnF.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I guess your definition of a raid guild is different than others
Planar clears aren't raids. 1 group content.

So raid guilds FE/IB/TMO/BDA/Taken.

3v2

Aye, but if there was a full rotation, imagine how many more guilds would actually raid. It's a miracle that taken / divinity and such are still cohesive guilds with impetus to get targets with how locked down the raid scene is atm.

[Alarti0001]

I don't know what you're trying to say, but I was asking a question as to the other raid guilds you're speaking about.

I don't know why you're tied up in semantics. Who are the raid guilds?

This isn't RnF and I'm not trying to argue with you. Don't know why you guys turn every thread into RnF.

How is this RnF? I was providing an example of this "majority" Catherin claims he has. She labels them as raid guilds based on her definition of what a raid guild is. When is the last time AG or A-team killed a raid-mob prior to suspensions?

We aren't making a planar clear rotation here.

[Nune]

Who are the other raid guilds? Lord Bob is the only one I can think of.

By raid guilds, I assume it's a guild that raids, which is planes, epic mobs, etc.

Our guild is a raid guild by that definition. Thousand times over.


"Raid guilds" in the big boy context should be guilds capable of killing a dragon from out of zone mobilization -> to said dragon

[Alarti0001]

Aye, but if there was a full rotation, imagine how many more guilds would actually raid. It's a miracle that taken / divinity and such are still cohesive guilds with impetus to get targets with how locked down the raid scene is atm.

That is exactly my point. Catherin's definition of what a "raid guild" is has no value. Her majority isn't proven in the slightest and is moot at best.

[Byrjun]

When is the last time AG or A-team killed a raid-mob prior to suspensions?

Let us have next CT and I'm pretty sure we'll have no problem killing it. I don't get what point you're trying to make, are you suggesting that the majority of guilds can't kill 32k mobs that hit for like 500 at most?

[Alarti0001]

Let us have next CT and I'm pretty sure we'll have no problem killing it. I don't get what point you're trying to make, are you suggesting that the majority of guilds can't kill 32k mobs that hit for like 500 at most?

Read further

[Nune]

Let us have next CT and I'm pretty sure we'll have no problem killing it. I don't get what point you're trying to make, are you suggesting that the majority of guilds can't kill 32k mobs that hit for like 500 at most?

His definition isn't about being able to kill a raid mob, it's about being able to do it before a different guild does or doing it faster than another guild when they're moving in / mobilizing to it.


Will ditto our guild could pop 32k targets in the NEAR future. We have to round most of us out to 60 and recruit a few more key classes. Which is why I dont give a fuck about this rotation / agreement bullshit. Gives 0 accountancy to my type of guild, newer than the established regulars. We've downed zones/targets Lord bob has wiped on with 1/6th of their numbers

[Splorf22]

Let us have next CT and I'm pretty sure we'll have no problem killing it. I don't get what point you're trying to make, are you suggesting that the majority of guilds can't kill 32k mobs that hit for like 500 at most?

Alarti still hasn't figured out that variance isn't classic. Or how to tie his shoes, for that matter.

[Arteker]

That is exactly my point. Catherin's definition of what a "raid guild" is has no value. Her majority isn't proven in the slightest and is moot at best.

Catherin definition of raidin was camp for 10 hours straigh lower guk and inflate fbss from 6k to 11 . and then try to buy lots from tmo. server was in a stage where some gilds where trying to adapt and figth back .



what is all sad of this situtation is guilds where starting to compete and try mobs agaisnt tmo fe and that was fucking good .

But again we are not longer a EQ generation of players, instead we want some clone of eqmac or a instanced everquest wich isnt classic .

[HeallunRumblebelly]

That is exactly my point. Catherin's definition of what a "raid guild" is has no value. Her majority isn't proven in the slightest and is moot at best.

But what I'm saying is, these talks aren't considering everyone who would raid if the scene was agreeable to them. And in that regard the vast majority of the level 60 population who does not currently raid but would like to far outweighs fe/ib/tmo.

[Arteker]

Alarti still hasn't figured out that variance isn't classic. Or how to tie his shoes, for that matter.

variance isnt classic but then if u had a euro guild lock the mobs in their time frame you would find another stone.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti still hasn't figured out that variance isn't classic. Or how to tie his shoes, for that matter.

Variance isn't classic. Everyone realizes this you are apparently too fucktarded to read the numerous GM's posts saying they ARE NOT changing variance. SO keep holding onto that thread it will get you.... nowhere.

The GM's asked us to come up with a player driven solution not a GM/Dev solution. This is like the 20th time this has been mentioned... how many more times before it sinks in?

You apparently continually miss the point, I'm not really surprised.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

variance isnt classic but then if u had a euro guild lock the mobs in their time frame you would find another stone.

tmo/ib/fe raid whenever anything spawns. things do not go untracked and enough people answer their batphones at any time of the day in any time zone.

[Nune]

But what I'm saying is, these talks aren't considering everyone who would raid if the scene was agreeable to them. And in that regard the vast majority of the level 60 population who does not currently raid but would like to far outweighs fe/ib/tmo.

/thread

[Splorf22]

Variance isn't classic. Everyone realizes this you are apparently too fucktarded to read the numerous GM's posts saying they ARE NOT changing variance. SO keep holding onto that thread it will get you.... nowhere.

The GM's asked us to come up with a player driven solution not a GM/Dev solution. This is like the 20th time this has been mentioned... how many more times before it sinks in?

You apparently continually miss the point, I'm not really surprised.

so you admit you don't know how to tie your shoes, eh

[Yinikren]

Player driven, not TMOIBFE driven.

[Alarti0001]

so you admit you don't know how to tie your shoes, eh

Always used velcro.

[Alarti0001]

Player driven, not TMOIBFE driven.

Who should drive then? The people who put in no effort on the raid scene?
Get over it. Alot of our proposals have given up a shit ton to the little guys for no advantage to ourselves. You can demand all you want, but I can guarantee you won't get everything you think you deserve.

[Elements]

Who should drive then? The people who put in no effort on the raid scene?
Get over it. Alot of our proposals have given up a shit ton to the little guys for no advantage to ourselves. You can demand all you want, but I can guarantee you won't get everything you think you deserve.

deserve should read "think you are entitled to"

[Visual]

Less raid heavy guilds holding the raid heavy guilds hostage by not even offering any sort of compromise is silly. If you truly want all the guilds to come together and form an agreement it shouldn't be the raid guilds "suspended" allowing the more casuals to hold them hostage. Lock the server until its hashed out if you truly think its possible for this group of entitled trolls to come to some sort of agreement.

Signed

[Arteker]

tmo/ib/fe raid whenever anything spawns. things do not go untracked and enough people answer their batphones at any time of the day in any time zone.

im tmo and i know fe ib pretty well and honestly thats false .oh sure easy to burn some targets but the real deal? no way lets be honest safest possible tmo killing time in vp mwas always euro mornings :)

yet we often struggled to kill shit like gore by those very same mornings :p

[Aaron]

That is exactly my point. Catherin's definition of what a "raid guild" is has no value. Her majority isn't proven in the slightest and is moot at best.

I'm trying to get this figured out. Who are the raid guilds?

Catherin has a list, even if it's wrong.

Do you have one? Have you talked with the leadership of the guilds you consider raid guilds?

I only ask because it's been made clear that guilds need to come to an agreement. Catherin has talked with her list of raid guilds to come to a resolution.

I would think that, in order to talk with the leadership of raid guilds, you'd want to first figure out who they are.

[Aaron]

Who should drive then? The people who put in no effort on the raid scene?
Get over it. Alot of our proposals have given up a shit ton to the little guys for no advantage to ourselves. You can demand all you want, but I can guarantee you won't get everything you think you deserve.

You should get it. All of it. You deserve it.

[-Catherin-]

That is exactly my point. Catherin's definition of what a "raid guild" is has no value. Her majority isn't proven in the slightest and is moot at best.

I do believe we have been tasked with making the raid scene better for "everyone."

It's not your call to say who is qualified as a someone and who isn't.

[Alarti0001]

I'm trying to get this figured out. Who are the raid guilds?

Catherin has a list, even if it's wrong.

Do you have one? Have you talked with the leadership of the guilds you consider raid guilds?

I only ask because it's been made clear that guilds need to come to an agreement. Catherin has talked with her list of raid guilds to come to a resolution.

I would think that, in order to talk with the leadership of raid guilds, you'd want to first figure out who they are.

She extended her lists and represented only THEIR interests. There wasn't concessions or compromise made.

[Elements]

I do believe we have been tasked with making the raid scene better for "everyone."

It's not your call to say who is qualified as a someone and who isn't.

How do you propose to make the raid scene better for TMO my dear.

[Alarti0001]

I do believe we have been tasked with making the raid scene better for "everyone."

It's not your call to say who is qualified as a someone and who isn't.

OMG derp... that is what I am saying to you haha with your list of an arbitrary 9.

[Alarti0001]

How do you propose to make the raid scene better for TMO my dear.

/thread

[Alarti0001]

You should get it. All of it. You deserve it.

I deserve only what I am capable of getting. However, raiding has been good to me and I'm capable of giving some back :)

[Yinikren]

Alot of our proposals have given up a shit ton to the little guys for no advantage to ourselves

As it should be, as you're kinda the reason we are here. You know you are going in losing mobs. You're just thinking you've given enough when, given the scope of this agreement, it isn't even close.

Entitlement issues. Damn kids.

[-Catherin-]

Catherin definition of raidin was camp for 10 hours straigh lower guk and inflate fbss from 6k to 11 . and then try to buy lots from tmo. server was in a stage where some gilds where trying to adapt and figth back .

I actually caused it to go from 11k to 6k, not the other way around :p It went back up after I stopped bothering with it.

Regardless has nothing to do without the conversation other than trying to deflect from it.

[Elements]

The FE/TMO proposal offers an unprecidented amount of content UNCONTESTED to the rest of the server to do with what they will be it rotate, compete what ever. The rest of it stays up for grabs to anyone. The only loser in that proposal is any guild in class A. Please show me a proposal that has any betterment for TMO/FE from the current state.

[Alarti0001]

As it should be, as you're kinda the reason we are here. You know you are going in losing mobs. You're just thinking you've given enough when, given the scope of this agreement, it isn't even close.

Entitlement issues. Damn kids.

What did you do to deserve whatever you think you deserve other than create a character of course.

[-Catherin-]

There wasn't concessions or compromise made.

false. I was in that vent conversation and compromise was attempted when the original proposal was scoffed at by the minority

[Yinikren]

There will never be a proposal for the betterment of TMO/IBFE because you guys were the source of the problem.

You're the ones conceding, not us.

[Splorf22]

How do you propose to make the raid scene better for TMO my dear.

By allowing you to get a good night's sleep for two weeks!

Also I think you'll find its psychologically healthier not to be involved in fierce competition over a video game.

[MaksimMazor]

I'm sorry I thought the agreement was supposed to be for the betterment of the "entire" server, not just the care bear hand holders

[Yinikren]

I'm sorry I thought the agreement was supposed to be for the betterment of the "entire" server, not just the care bear hand holders

That's what I heard. These 1 week proposals don't accomplish much of that....

[Elements]

By allowing you to get a good night's sleep for two weeks!

Also I think you'll find its psychologically healthier not to be involved in fierce competition over a video game.

By that logic I propose A-team and Taken would be better off moving to another server to remove themselves from this debacle.

[falkun]

Or TMO could go compete on R99, where they can kill (and be killed) by their opponents instead of "who can train the bestest."

[MaksimMazor]

Dragons to kill vs. no dragons to kill accomplishes just that

[MaksimMazor]

"who can train the bestest."

Doesn't even know the raid rules he's trying to change

[Splorf22]

By that logic I propose A-team and Taken would be better off moving to another server to remove themselves from this debacle.

I honestly have no idea what this means. I get a full night's sleep every night, untroubled by batphones to slay pixel dragons. And lightly trolling Alarti on the forums about his inability to tie his shoes is not the same as fierce competition over a video game.

Also Gabobrik, it's remarkable to me how proud you are of your ability to play EQ 40 hours a week and in the middle of the night. Be honest, do you mention this at parties?

[Alarti0001]

Also Gabobrik, it's remarkable to me how proud you are of your ability to play EQ 40 hours a week and in the middle of the night. Be honest, do you mention this at parties?

Where do you come up with these numbers? Do you carry around a booklet of falsehoods? Get back to RnF.

[falkun]

Ultimately, Rogean wants to see an improved raid scene mentality. Since TMO will only agree to what can be put on paper (see the Noble agreement), that's not going to happen. So the guilds have been working towards having encounters where the hardcores do not show up so the casuals can "compete" on their own terms (which are likely much more amenable to each other than the hardcores). The Divinity agreement hashes out the "casual" form of "competition" by implementing the serpentine draft rotation.

What raid rules are TMO trying to alter?

[MaksimMazor]

I'm sorry I only log on 5 minutes for batphones and to sell hp rings at market value

[Splorf22]

Where do you come up with these numbers? Do you carry around a booklet of falsehoods? Get back to RnF.

Alarti your complete inability to comprehend rhetorical devices is merely a facet of your complete inability to comprehend any new information at all.

Stick to velcro.

[falkun]

@ Alarti, you state "9 guilds" as arbitrary, and yet you tell Loraen to stop trolling and return to RNF. That's hipocrasy at its finest.

[Elements]

I honestly have no idea what this means. I get a full night's sleep every night, untroubled by batphones to slay pixel dragons. And lightly trolling Alarti on the forums about his inability to tie his shoes is not the same as fierce competition over a video game.

Also Gabobrik, it's remarkable to me how proud you are of your ability to play EQ 40 hours a week and in the middle of the night. Be honest, do you mention this at parties?

TMO is not you. Your uninformed opinion of what it takes TMO to kill pixel dragons at all hours of the night and your made up negative association of what it takes has no merit. As such my meritless proposal for your guilds shadows this.

Don't answer a legitimate question with bullshit and then act stupid...

[Alarti0001]

@ Alarti, you state "9 guilds" as arbitrary, and yet you tell Loraen to stop trolling and return to RNF. That's hipocrasy at its finest.

You need to buy a dictionary.

[Ciroco]

You're all a bunch of Hippocrates.

[drmccollum]

Any true objective agreement would not call out specific guild names. It would set the criteria that each guild must meet to be part of the rotation.

[Sirken]

TMO, FE, IB, Taken, BDA, Divinity, Azure Guard, Europa, A team.

Those are just the raid capable ones.

maybe im wrong, but shouldnt Dojo and Europa be included in that?

[Reguiy]

10 pages of E-peen jousting and still not in RnF.

[Alarti0001]

maybe im wrong, but shouldnt Dojo and Europa be included in that?

Keke I see Europa in your quote! Point and laugh at sirken!

[Sirken]

Keke I see Europa in your quote! Point and laugh at sirken!

Sirken's reading comprehension: -1

[Yinikren]

Europa is. :p

Bob guild sure, after they stop intentionally messing with things like the sky rotation.

[Splorf22]

TMO is not you. Your uninformed opinion of what it takes TMO to kill pixel dragons at all hours of the night and your made up negative association of what it takes has no merit. As such my meritless proposal for your guilds shadows this.

Don't answer a legitimate question with bullshit and then act stupid...

My uniformed opinion is based on being on your batphone for several months, and even a child knows that getting up in the middle of the night is unhealthy and annoying. Your attempts to deny reality have been noted, however. I'm sure Alarti is proud.

Also, your reply (and this one) still makes no sense, in the same way that negative analogies make no sense, especially when my post does in fact make sense.

Anyway I've done enough trolling for a bit. Alarti how about you step outside and have a cold one!

P.S. Sirken, Europa is in that list. Dojosomething has been busy shitting on everyone in the Sky rotation, but they are slowly changing their tune and have already posted on the main forums that they would like to see a rotation. It's extremely unlikely that they would prefer the TME proposal to Divinity's.

[Clark]

Let me be the first to say "fuck that".

[Alarti0001]

My uniformed opinion is based on being on your batphone for several months, and even a child knows that getting up in the middle of the night is unhealthy and annoying. Your attempts to deny reality have been noted, however. I'm sure Alarti is proud.

Also, your reply (and this one) still makes no sense, in the same way that negative analogies make no sense, especially when my post does in fact make sense.

Anyway I've done enough trolling for a bit. Alarti how about you step outside and have a cold one!

P.S. Sirken, Europa is in that list. Dojosomething has been busy shitting on everyone in the Sky rotation, but they are slowly changing their tune and have already posted on the main forums that they would like to see a rotation. It's extremely unlikely that they would prefer the TME proposal to Divinity's.


You do realize that most modern phones have silent or vibrate options right?

[Spitty]

and even a child knows that getting up in the middle of the night is unhealthy and annoying.

Uh, I usually work all night. Is that unhealthy?

Could you milk me, Greg?

[Yinikren]

I've got nipples, Greg. Can you milk me?

[Elements]

My uniformed opinion is based on being on your batphone for several months, and even a child knows that getting up in the middle of the night is unhealthy and annoying. Your attempts to deny reality have been noted, however. I'm sure Alarti is proud.

Also, your reply (and this one) still makes no sense, in the same way that negative analogies make no sense, especially when my post does in fact make sense.

Anyway I've done enough trolling for a bit. Alarti how about you step outside and have a cold one!

P.S. Sirken, Europa is in that list. Dojosomething has been busy shitting on everyone in the Sky rotation, but they are slowly changing their tune and have already posted on the main forums that they would like to see a rotation. It's extremely unlikely that they would prefer the TME proposal to Divinity's.

So when we field a force of euro's or people who work different hours from you what then? Your argument is invalid and again total bullshit. Take foot out of mouth and realize that YOU do not have the same circumstances as everyone in TMO. My night does not equal your night and therefore it is no big deal for me to kill mobs when its night for you. TMO supersedes YOUR circumstance making your individual opnion of the guilds activities round the clock moot.

So to sum up: there isn't a plan out there that makes the raid scene better for TMO/FE/IB? or do you have one beyond some made up out of game rhetoric?

[Gaffin 3.0]

Even better, force us to play on Red.... ugh

pls do this

[emp82]

Why lock all the casual players out because the hardcore players cant play nice? This will never happen, they will just raid suspend the server or not spawn all the mobs that drop the pixels you want so badly.

[Elements]

Why lock all the casual players out because the hardcore players cant play nice? This will never happen, they will just raid suspend the server or not spawn all the mobs that drop the pixels you want so badly.

Hard core players have an agreement amongst themselves. Why should hardcore players not be allowed to play because casuals are stalling.

[Yinikren]

Who says we were stalling, maybe we were just waiting for proposals that weren't a complete joke :p

[Elements]

Who says we were stalling, maybe we were just waiting for proposals that weren't a complete joke :p

It's unfortunate that getting 1000X more than previously is considered a joke.

[Pint]

tmo/fe/ib should just give all their pixels to the casuals and start over since they clearly dont want to have to work for them in any agreement.

[Yinikren]

Its also unfortunate that you think you are giving up much of anything. Hence the unanimous vetoing of all these "1 week raid like us!" proposals.

[Elements]

Its also unfortunate that you think you are giving up much of anything. Hence the unanimous vetoing of all these "1 week raid like us!" proposals.

1 week of uncontested mobs does not = raid like us. Form a rotation or point system amongst those who don't want to compete if you like.

[Yinikren]

My system was never against competition.

[Elements]

My system was never against competition.

Cool so your on board to leave the raid scene as is?

[Lisset]

It's unfortunate that getting 1000X more than previously is considered a joke.

"We've been starving the city for years and the king says we have to share or we starve too."

"Well, give them each a biscuit and some gruel."

"The king said we all have to agree."

"They won't agree? But we said they could have our scraps! That's 1000X more than before! They should be happy with that!"

[Yinikren]

Cool so your on board to leave the raid scene as is?

Sure. My system involved the least amount of work to change from the current scene since it was just a bag limit.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Entitlement issues. Damn kids.

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

Yet, when we apply that to the endgame, people begin chafing as if the concept did not apply. EQ was built upon this notion from the ground up. Abashi even went on record saying that "no one is "entitled" to items in the game." (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1234691&postcount=3) The hardcores are not seeking entitlements. They're asking that the system that Classic EQ was based off of be respected. However, this is not a perfect reflection of Classic, and everyone recognizes that part of this server's purpose is to create an environment for people to experience content they did not see on live. However, preservation of the Classic environment has always been the primary consideration. With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual. However, we seem to be far from that synthesis.

The GM staff has recently handed a large portion of the population an immense amount of artificial bargaining power for the purpose of creating a system that respects both sides while still rewarding extra effort. The casual side was recently offered one third of all mob spawns, and it was flatly rejected for want of a direct 50/50 split. This is blatant rent seeking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking), and the recent rejection was a brazen attempt to hostilely maximize the outcome of an artificially produced windfall.

Calling the hardcores "entitled kids" is unproductive when you're categorically rejecting deals offered in good faith by leveraging your artificial bargaining position to grind talks to a halt.

[Elements]

"We've been starving the city for years and the king says we have to share or we starve too."

"Well, give them each a biscuit and some gruel."

"The king said we all have to agree."

"They won't agree? But we said they could have our scraps! That's 1000X more than before! They should be happy with that!"

Effort = reward in a game of contested content. Show me your raid-effort logs and we can start comparing reward.

[Argh]

5 of 9 guilds is a majority. 2 of 9 guilds is a dictation of terms.

Who are 9 raiding guilds?

[Elements]

Sure. My system involved the least amount of work to change from the current scene since it was just a bag limit.

Bag limit seems fine. I need 6 guilds for all my alts, probably 7 in a week or two, and 8, 9 10 soon after.

[Mezzmur]

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

Yet, when we apply that to the endgame, people begin chafing as if the concept did not apply. EQ was built upon this notion from the ground up. Abashi even went on record saying that "no one is "entitled" to items in the game." (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1234691&postcount=3) The hardcores are not seeking entitlements. They're asking that the system that Classic EQ was based off of be respected. However, this is not a perfect reflection of Classic, and everyone recognizes that part of this server's purpose is to create an environment for people to experience content they did not see on live. However, preservation of the Classic environment has always been the primary consideration. With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual. However, we seem to be far from that synthesis.

The GM staff has recently handed a large portion of the population an immense amount of artificial bargaining power for the purpose of creating a system that respects both sides while still rewarding extra effort. The casual side was recently offered one third of all mob spawns, and it was flatly rejected for want of a direct 50/50 split. This is blatant rent seeking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking), and the recent rejection was a brazen attempt to hostilely maximize the outcome of an artificially produced windfall.

Calling the hardcores "entitled kids" is unproductive when you're categorically rejecting deals offered in good faith by leveraging your artificial bargaining position to grind talks to a halt.

Pras Xasten.

[Autotune]

Um, don't lock the server... I have leveling that still needs to be done before an agreement is made.

Looks like everything is still golden for me to hit 60 before a new agreement is made too.

[Autotune]

Bag limit seems fine. I need 6 guilds for all my alts, probably 7 in a week or two, and 8, 9 10 soon after.

Shitbags usually do.

[Elements]

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

Yet, when we apply that to the endgame, people begin chafing as if the concept did not apply. EQ was built upon this notion from the ground up. Abashi even went on record saying that "no one is "entitled" to items in the game." (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1234691&postcount=3) The hardcores are not seeking entitlements. They're asking that the system that Classic EQ was based off of be respected. However, this is not a perfect reflection of Classic, and everyone recognizes that part of this server's purpose is to create an environment for people to experience content they did not see on live. However, preservation of the Classic environment has always been the primary consideration. With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual. However, we seem to be far from that synthesis.

The GM staff has recently handed a large portion of the population an immense amount of artificial bargaining power for the purpose of creating a system that respects both sides while still rewarding extra effort. The casual side was recently offered one third of all mob spawns, and it was flatly rejected for want of a direct 50/50 split. This is blatant rent seeking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking), and the recent rejection was a brazen attempt to hostilely maximize the outcome of an artificially produced windfall.

Calling the hardcores "entitled kids" is unproductive when you're categorically rejecting deals offered in good faith by leveraging your artificial bargaining position to grind talks to a halt.

Wish I had your patients for dealing with people.

[jaybone]

Let me be the first to say "fuck that".

Better yet. Fuck you.

[Mezzmur]

Um, don't lock the server... I have leveling that still needs to be done before an agreement is made.

Looks like everything is still golden for me to hit 60 before a new agreement is made too.

My second monk hit 25 today, we can level up together, create a new guild and share in the spoils.

BTW Hate, Fear and Sky are OFF LIMITS too if the whole server goes raid suspended. So those saying DONT CARE WONT IMPACT ME aren't really thinking about that.

[Autotune]

For the record, btw, nothing about TMO/FE (Alarti's) new proposal stops CAT A guilds from making CAT B alt raiding guilds either.

[Elements]

Shitbags usually do.

Shitbag to shitbag I thanks for the support bumps.

[Yinikren]

Bag limit seems fine. I need 6 guilds for all my alts, probably 7 in a week or two, and 8, 9 10 soon after.

There's your entitlement, Xasten.
In all seriousness, I get what you are saying about competing.

In my system, they compete for harder, more valuable mobs, instead of just more of them like you do now. It opens the doors for more guilds to compete, instead of what appears to scraps offered once a week.

Of course we fought for a 50/50 split. You compete with one other guild during your split. We compete with 6 in ours.

[jaybone]

Um, don't lock the server... I have leveling that still needs to be done before an agreement is made.

Looks like everything is still golden for me to hit 60 before a new agreement is made too.

Nobody cares about a banned MQ user who is still allowed to play on this server.

[Elements]

For the record, btw, nothing about TMO/FE (Alarti's) new proposal stops CAT A guilds from making CAT B alt raiding guilds either.

Point?

[Autotune]

Point?

These systems suffer from the same flaws.

[Elements]

These systems suffer from the same flaws.

So where should casuals put their money?

[Autotune]

So where should casuals put their money?

I think both should stop looking at ways to beat the system, CSR already stated they would ass rape anyone doing it, so while many of you talk about how you'd do it, none of you have the balls to actually do it as a cohesive unit/guild.

[Clark]

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

Yet, when we apply that to the endgame, people begin chafing as if the concept did not apply. EQ was built upon this notion from the ground up. Abashi even went on record saying that "no one is "entitled" to items in the game." (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1234691&postcount=3) The hardcores are not seeking entitlements. They're asking that the system that Classic EQ was based off of be respected. However, this is not a perfect reflection of Classic, and everyone recognizes that part of this server's purpose is to create an environment for people to experience content they did not see on live. However, preservation of the Classic environment has always been the primary consideration. With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual. However, we seem to be far from that synthesis.

The GM staff has recently handed a large portion of the population an immense amount of artificial bargaining power for the purpose of creating a system that respects both sides while still rewarding extra effort. The casual side was recently offered one third of all mob spawns, and it was flatly rejected for want of a direct 50/50 split. This is blatant rent seeking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking), and the recent rejection was a brazen attempt to hostilely maximize the outcome of an artificially produced windfall.

Calling the hardcores "entitled kids" is unproductive when you're categorically rejecting deals offered in good faith by leveraging your artificial bargaining position to grind talks to a halt.

[Elements]

I think both should stop looking at ways to beat the system, CSR already stated they would ass rape anyone doing it, so while many of you talk about how you'd do it, none of you have the balls to actually do it as a cohesive unit/guild.

Any system that tries to remove monopoly and spread resources amongst various non-competing guilds is going to have the natural consequence of spreading people out into multiple guilds. There doesn't need to be any cohesive effort.

[Funkutron5000]

Any system that tries to remove monopoly and spread resources amongst various guilds is going to have the natural consequence of spreading people out into multiple guilds. There doesn't need to be any cohesive effort.

TMO is our version of Too Big to Fail.

Loot bailouts inc.

[Elements]

TMO is our version of Too Big to Fail.

Loot bailouts inc.

I'm not saying having alts in multiple guilds should be a bad thing or even discouraged. It's just more than likely going to happen.

[Autotune]

Any system that tries to remove monopoly and spread resources amongst various non-competing guilds is going to have the natural consequence of spreading people out into multiple guilds. There doesn't need to be any cohesive effort.

OH, so you are going against Rogean then?

[Autotune]

btw, I think raiding guilds need to trim the fat and the real hardcores would actually like to be able to do that.

[Elements]

OH, so you are going against Rogean then?

explain

[Autotune]

anyhow, I have to head out, I'll try to remember to come back and check this thread later.

[Splorf22]

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

It does not apply to the endgame because the extra work currently required to get raid targets is the result of non-classic variance.

[Elements]

It does not apply to the endgame because the extra work currently required to get raid targets is the result of non-classic variance.

Explain how it doesn't? If anything variance was introduced to mirror the exact concept Xasten is explaining.

[Hailto]

I agree with this, lock the server and watch how fast the rest of these whiners accept a decent proposal.

[sanforce]

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

Yet, when we apply that to the endgame, people begin chafing as if the concept did not apply. EQ was built upon this notion from the ground up. Abashi even went on record saying that "no one is "entitled" to items in the game." (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1234691&postcount=3) The hardcores are not seeking entitlements. They're asking that the system that Classic EQ was based off of be respected. However, this is not a perfect reflection of Classic, and everyone recognizes that part of this server's purpose is to create an environment for people to experience content they did not see on live. However, preservation of the Classic environment has always been the primary consideration. With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual. However, we seem to be far from that synthesis.

The GM staff has recently handed a large portion of the population an immense amount of artificial bargaining power for the purpose of creating a system that respects both sides while still rewarding extra effort. The casual side was recently offered one third of all mob spawns, and it was flatly rejected for want of a direct 50/50 split. This is blatant rent seeking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking), and the recent rejection was a brazen attempt to hostilely maximize the outcome of an artificially produced windfall.

Calling the hardcores "entitled kids" is unproductive when you're categorically rejecting deals offered in good faith by leveraging your artificial bargaining position to grind talks to a halt.

This. The hardcore raid environment should be preserved and encouraged or people are going to spread alts into other casual guilds. I have a few alts in the 50s that have never been guilded, why would I want to place them in TMO if they have a better chance to get loot in a Tier B guild that is handed mobs?

[Splorf22]

This. The hardcore raid environment should be preserved and encouraged or people are going to spread alts into other casual guilds. I have a few alts in the 50s that have never been guilded, why would I want to place them in TMO if they have a better chance to get loot in a Tier B guild that is handed mobs?

Because if people find out about it (and they will) all of your toons will be permanently banned? Remember, the GMs said they'd enforce any player agreements, not just some impotent council of guilds.

[Ciroco]

With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual.

Hold on a second; we all understand that the word "casual" is a relative term here, right? The second tier of guilds that is being thrown around would have been considered as hardcore as it gets on Live. This isn't some new age MMO civil rights movement. The issue is the lack of guild progression past the lower (and maybe middle) tier of raid mobs, not that people who log on twice a week are crying for epics.

[MaksimMazor]

not that people who log on twice a week are crying for epics.

Bullseye! You hit the nail on the head

[Ciroco]

You're kidding, right?

[MaksimMazor]

Am I kidding about the people that log in 2 days a week requesting handouts, then no

[Splorf22]

The vast majority of taken does not log on once a week as is easily observed from their dkp logs

[MaksimMazor]

Reading comprehension

[Ciroco]

Taken gets DKP for logging in? Sign me up.

[Grahm]

Literally read like 2 pages, and I know I have no one even close to raiding, but why do you guys cry "WoW is ez mode", when everything is open world you guys cry even harder

[Elements]

Because if people find out about it (and they will) all of your toons will be permanently banned? Remember, the GMs said they'd enforce any player agreements, not just some impotent council of guilds.

Where is it in the rules that a person can't have alts in multiple guilds?

[Amirite]

i know 2+2 = 4, but whats that have to do with the number 3?


next post;


2+2 = 6 guys, you are all dumb and it definately equals 6.


next post;

i majored in math in college, so i know it equals 6. you guys obviously are too uneducated.


whats this have to do with anything? let me explain, this is chewbaca.
now you're thinking..what does chewbaca have to do with 2+2 =4?? NOTHING
THATS RIGHT, NOTHING.

[webrunner5]

You can not expect TMO, FE to have the same status as guild #9. Get real. Why play??

Sirken suggested 3 or 4 months ago to have the "Lower" Guilds to combine and knock TMO off. Did they do that... hell no.

So now all the lower guilds want something for basically nothing. Yeah right.
This has just turned into a welfare state just like in real life. Jesus just embarrassing as hell. :(

[JayN]

You can not expect TMO, FE to have the same status as guild #9. Get real. Why play??

Sirken suggested 3 or 4 months ago to have the "Lower" Guilds to combine and knock TMO off. Did they do that... hell no.

So now all the lower guilds want something for basically nothing. Yeah right.
This has just turned into a welfare state just like in real life. Jesus just embarrassing as hell. :(

QFTT twice

You can not expect TMO, FE to have the same status as guild #9. Get real. Why play??

Sirken suggested 3 or 4 months ago to have the "Lower" Guilds to combine and knock TMO off. Did they do that... hell no.

So now all the lower guilds want something for basically nothing. Yeah right.
This has just turned into a welfare state just like in real life. Jesus just embarrassing as hell. :(


why would they agree to anything at all, its the same for them either way lol. this is some bullshit.

SHUT IT DOWN!

fu eqmac

[Autotune]

This. The hardcore raid environment should be preserved and encouraged or people are going to spread alts into other casual guilds. I have a few alts in the 50s that have never been guilded, why would I want to place them in TMO if they have a better chance to get loot in a Tier B guild that is handed mobs?

You should do that, place him in another guild and help them gear up so that guild can later legitimately compete with your shitty normal guild.

[Autotune]

explain

Read Rogean's response to monopolies. The point of the new rules is to stop a monopoly (even if it is just a few guilds doing it).

People who circumvent the new rules as a guild to sate their pixel lust should and will be banned.

Nothing is stopping people from having multiple characters in multiple guilds, but when a single guild tries to make another alt guild to raid with, I will enjoy seeing it and their main guild immediately banned.

[sanforce]

Nothing is stopping people from having multiple characters in multiple guilds, but when a single guild tries to make another alt guild to raid with, I will enjoy seeing it and their main guild immediately banned.

Ok, then what happens when multiple people from one guild place alts in an existing Tier C guild. Is this guild going to be a default "alt guild" of the Tier A guild? How many members of a Tier A guild can have alts in the same secondary guild? What if multiple Tier A guilds band together and place just enough Alts in a pre-existing secondary guild to stay under said limits (raid cooperation!)? Who is going to track this?

The GMs already said that keeping track of everyone's alt is not practical from their end and it is not going to happen.

To demand an equal share of the proposed bag limit points, do you just need enough members to theoretically tackle a raid target? Three or Four groups of level 60s should be able to take the majority of these targets down. Place that many alts in a pre-existing Tier C guild, bam - that's a raid guild and deserves an equal share of the bag limit points.

[baalzy]

Hard core players have an agreement amongst themselves. Why should hardcore players not be allowed to play because casuals are stalling.

You claim this to be true... yet IB hasn't agreed to anything to my knowledge.

[emp82]

Hard core players have an agreement amongst themselves. Why should hardcore players not be allowed to play because casuals are stalling.

Unless I'm mistaken the OP was talking about locking the entire server. The casuals I'm talking about are people who don't give 1/2 a shit about raiding but just want to play the game and remember how cool some of the rest of the game was.

I don't need raid content to be nostalgic.

[Elements]

You claim this to be true... yet IB hasn't agreed to anything to my knowledge.

What has ib killed on their own in the past 4 months? What do they have the numbers to even compete for?

[Lammy]

You can not expect TMO, FE to have the same status as guild #9. Get real. Why play??

Sirken suggested 3 or 4 months ago to have the "Lower" Guilds to combine and knock TMO off. Did they do that... hell no.

So now all the lower guilds want something for basically nothing. Yeah right.
This has just turned into a welfare state just like in real life. Jesus just embarrassing as hell. :(

I agree. What's the point of being a top tier raiding guild if you can't be just that? So many people act like TMO has so much loot they don't know what to do with it. We do get new members regularly just like everyone else. TMO still needs a lot of VP and open world loot for mains, and many epics for mains. If we are more aggressive in obtaining in, why does that warrant some elaborate raid treaty? Such strange train of thought? This is now becoming the most ridiculous and dictated raid scene I've seen in all of my years of gaming... most specifically EQ.

Surely the staff didn't mean for it to go this far? This is laughable.

[Troubled]

What has ib killed on their own in the past 4 months? What do they have the numbers to even compete for?

You sure are pretty important for being in TMO 2 whole months now, ya?

[sanforce]

IB = FE for all intents and purposes. If you raid together, then you get lumped into a single alliance.

[Autotune]

Ok, then what happens when multiple people from one guild place alts in an existing Tier C guild. Is this guild going to be a default "alt guild" of the Tier A guild? How many members of a Tier A guild can have alts in the same secondary guild? What if multiple Tier A guilds band together and place just enough Alts in a pre-existing secondary guild to stay under said limits (raid cooperation!)? Who is going to track this?

The GMs already said that keeping track of everyone's alt is not practical from their end and it is not going to happen.

To demand an equal share of the proposed bag limit points, do you just need enough members to theoretically tackle a raid target? Three or Four groups of level 60s should be able to take the majority of these targets down. Place that many alts in a pre-existing Tier C guild, bam - that's a raid guild and deserves an equal share of the bag limit points.

Who needs to track it? It will come to light because people talk and it will be found out, no one needs to track anything, you guys are nuts.

[Autotune]

You sure are pretty important for being in TMO 2 whole months now, ya?

LOL'd. That guy is a hardcore raider, he fought tooth and nail to put TMO where it is!

[sanforce]

Who needs to track it? It will come to light because people talk and it will be found out, no one needs to track anything, you guys are nuts.

People don't even need to coordinate this. You could just have a guild that is recruiting raid geared level 60s. Who cares what everyone's primary guild is. With enough level 60s, a guild is entitled to be referred to as a raid guild (apparently). Stop recruiting at that point, setup a new gmail account, have a secondary batphones go out, use rotation points and/or only target "low priority" mobs.

[Elements]

IB = FE for all intents and purposes. If you raid together, then you get lumped into a single alliance.

People disputing FE signing off on IB's behalf in this case.

[Autotune]

People don't even need to coordinate this. You could just have a guild that is recruiting raid geared level 60s. Who cares what everyone's primary guild is. With enough level 60s, a guild is entitled to be referred to as a raid guild (apparently). Stop recruiting at that point, setup a new gmail account, have a secondary batphones go out, use rotation points and/or only target "low priority" mobs.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing this to take advantage of the CAT A/B system or the Points system, or even the rotation system.

However, people will find out if one guild tries to do it on a large scale. TMO was found out pretty quick when they tried to move alts to a guild once before during a raid suspension.

[Elements]

LOL'd. That guy is a hardcore raider, he fought tooth and nail to put TMO where it is!

More personal attacks please. The bumps of support are appreciated.

[knix]

You can not expect TMO, FE to have the same status as guild #9. Get real. Why play??

Sirken suggested 3 or 4 months ago to have the "Lower" Guilds to combine and knock TMO off. Did they do that... hell no.

So now all the lower guilds want something for basically nothing. Yeah right.
This has just turned into a welfare state just like in real life. Jesus just embarrassing as hell. :(


I am sorry I just have to re quote this,, right on the money. Why didn't these smaller guilds join forces, to compete? Why did they not heed Sirken's wise advice?

[Autotune]

More personal attacks please. The bumps of support are appreciated.

Personal? That is not a personal attack lol.

[Nuggie]

Take this however you will, but know I haven't had my hand in the raiding scene for a few years. And I wont until Velious comes out at the very earliest. I'm done with current content. I'm just a casual scum that logs in a few days a week and plays alts or farms stuff(mostly for alts/friends). Also consider I'm one of the few members of VD that is still tagged. My view of TMO is somewhat less that amiable.

That said:

The 10 free raid days is a heck of a lot more than you had before. It's a "free dinner." Plus you can always compete the other 20 days of the month. This will work more in your favor when Velious comes out. Which brings me to my next point.

Rogean mentioning Velious might be released without raid content if things dont shape up means to me that Velious isn't that far away(relatively, considering the age of the server... a year away, maybe?) It was mentioned somewhere that beta will probably be this year. How long did Kunark Beta last? I dont recall exactly, but 2 months pops into my mind. Velious could be out this year, any agreement should reflect Velious raid content to some extent. Anything else is remarkably short-sighted.

I've been guilded in "plan B" guilds my entire raiding career. I very much doubt their member base would/could sustain 15 days of "hard" competition from the other "plan b" guilds for more than a few consecutive months before getting burnt out.

Also, how the "plan B" guilds are going to raid on "their" portion of the month should be worked into any agreement. Anything less will create bitter rivalries between them.

The proposal from TMO/FE seemed very reasonable, excepting a few minor details mentioned later in that thread. It puts forth a very stable base upon which a compromise can be reached.

Try to be reasonable. Don't abuse the position Nilb/Rog have given you.

Just my opinion.

[Autotune]

I am sorry I just have to re quote this,, right on the money. Why didn't these smaller guilds join forces, to compete? Why did they not heed Sirken's wise advice?

Probably because people like the guilds they are in... idk... I guess not everyone likes being forced to make a guild with a roster size of 2-300 people just to be able to track hundreds of hours per week.


Nah, that sounds like an awesome classic experience.

[sanforce]

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing this to take advantage of the CAT A/B system or the Points system, or even the rotation system.

However, people will find out if one guild tries to do it on a large scale. TMO was found out pretty quick when they tried to move alts to a guild once before during a raid suspension.

That's why a raid scene that is based primarily on competition needs to be encouraged. We should be pushing rules that encourage guilds to stick together, not splinter.

I could easily have an unknown alt in a guild that takes advantage of all of these silly rules and switch it to my primary guild if the need ever arises. As it stands, it looks like I'm going to have a few of my main characters in my primary guild and a few secondary characters in guilds that takes advantage of these point rotations. I like to kill raid mobs, sorry.

[Autotune]

That's why a raid scene that is based primarily on competition needs to be encouraged. We should be pushing rules that encourage guilds to stick together, not splinter.

I could easily have an unknown alt in a guild that takes advantage of all of these silly rules and switch it to my primary guild if the need ever arises. As it stands, it looks like I'm going to have a few of my main characters in my primary guild and a few secondary characters in guilds that takes advantage of these point rotations. I like to kill raid mobs, sorry.

The current system doesn't work and will no longer be allowed. What do you suggest?

Also, any system that causes guilds to shed excess fat and still forces guilds to compete against each other is a great system in my eyes.

[Elements]

LOL'd. That guy is a hardcore raider, he fought tooth and nail to put TMO where it is!

Take this however you will, but know I haven't had my hand in the raiding scene for a few years. And I wont until Velious comes out at the very earliest. I'm done with current content. I'm just a casual scum that logs in a few days a week and plays alts or farms stuff(mostly for alts/friends). Also consider I'm one of the few members of VD that is still tagged. My view of TMO is somewhat less that amiable.

That said:

The 10 free raid days is a heck of a lot more than you had before. It's a "free dinner." Plus you can always compete the other 20 days of the month. This will work more in your favor when Velious comes out. Which brings me to my next point.

Rogean mentioning Velious might be released without raid content if things dont shape up means to me that Velious isn't that far away(relatively, considering the age of the server... a year away, maybe?) It was mentioned somewhere that beta will probably be this year. How long did Kunark Beta last? I dont recall exactly, but 2 months pops into my mind. Velious could be out this year, any agreement should reflect Velious raid content to some extent. Anything else is remarkably short-sighted.

I've been guilded in "plan B" guilds my entire raiding career. I very much doubt their member base would/could sustain 15 days of "hard" competition from the other "plan b" guilds for more than a few consecutive months before getting burnt out.

Also, how the "plan B" guilds are going to raid on "their" portion of the month should be worked into any agreement. Anything less will create bitter rivalries between them.

The proposal from TMO/FE seemed very reasonable, excepting a few minor details mentioned later in that thread. It puts forth a very stable base upon which a compromise can be reached.

Try to be reasonable. Don't abuse the position Nilb/Rog have given you.

Just my opinion.

Thank you unbiased 3rd party.

[Pint]

What's wrong with raiding in multiple guilds? Your helping each guild get the kills/loot with your extra effort. Some people are willing to put in significantly more time on p99, why shouldn't they expect higher returns?

[Autotune]

The current system doesn't work and will no longer be allowed. What do you suggest?

Also, any system that causes guilds to shed excess fat and still forces guilds to compete against each other is a great system in my eyes.

To add to this, the only members of a guild I have seen repeatedly talk about dividing up into other guilds is TMO.

[sanforce]

What's wrong with raiding in multiple guilds? Your helping each guild get the kills/loot with your extra effort. Some people are willing to put in significantly more time on p99, why shouldn't they expect higher returns?

Because that encourages small splinter guilds that will have just enough raid geared alts to get in on the rotations. If there are not that many people, then loot is likely to come your way after a few months of rotations. Repeat this process 50 times and the whole rotation idea bogs down in a hurry.

[JayN]

To add to this, the only members of a guild I have seen repeatedly talk about dividing up into other guilds is TMO.
LOL Fe/IB already have done just that

[Autotune]

LOL Fe/IB already have done just that

Have they? what guilds have they divided into?

[Autotune]

Because that encourages small splinter guilds that will have just enough raid geared alts to get in on the rotations. If there are not that many people, then loot is likely to come your way after a few months of rotations. Repeat this process 50 times and the whole rotation idea bogs down in a hurry.

the system least damaged by guilds splintering is the points system.

Small guilds have a harder time logging people in at odd hours and it puts more stress on the trackers.

Again, I welcome the thought of guilds splintering and shedding their fat.

[sanforce]

The current system doesn't work and will no longer be allowed. What do you suggest?

Also, any system that causes guilds to shed excess fat and still forces guilds to compete against each other is a great system in my eyes.

I like the idea of giving up a few of the lower priority targets to give "Tier B" people raid experience and fun. But the number and relative need of the gifted mobs shouldn't be excessive. I would be alright with a 1 to 1 Tier A - Tier B rule rotation on certain mobs. Guilds should also be encouraged to form alliances and actually compete with the Tier A guilds, they might surprise themself and get targets. However, some of these demands that I'm seeing with everyone's new-found bargaining power are really unreasonable and could have unforeseen consequences to the server. I like brainstorming these unforeseen consequences because some of these wacky ideas are going to happen eventually.

[Nuggie]

Thank you unbiased 3rd party.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic. It's lost in the text. If you're not, dont think for a minute i'm not biased against TMO. But I think it was a reasonable approach to the problem.

[Autotune]

I like the idea of giving up a few of the lower priority targets to give "Tier B" people raid experience and fun. But the number and relative need of the gifted mobs shouldn't be excessive. I would be alright with a 1 to 1 Tier A - Tier B rule rotation on certain mobs. Guilds should also be encouraged to form alliances and actually compete with the Tier A guilds, they might surprise themself and get targets. However, some of these demands that I'm seeing with everyone's new-found bargaining power are really unreasonable and could have unforeseen consequences to the server. I like brainstorming these unforeseen consequences because some of these wacky ideas are going to happen eventually.

Okay, so I'm going to quote someone who asked a question about this earlier.

Ok, then what happens when multiple people from one guild place alts in an existing Tier C guild. Is this guild going to be a default "alt guild" of the Tier A guild? How many members of a Tier A guild can have alts in the same secondary guild? What if multiple Tier A guilds band together and place just enough Alts in a pre-existing secondary guild to stay under said limits (raid cooperation!)? Who is going to track this?

The GMs already said that keeping track of everyone's alt is not practical from their end and it is not going to happen.

So, um?

[sanforce]

Okay, so I'm going to quote someone who asked a question about this earlier.



So, um?

That's why any changes shouldn't be too excessive. If it comes down to a rule rotation on every other lower priority target, I won't feel the need to have alts in other guilds. I'd rather have all of my alts under 1 tag, but I'd also like to have useful alts (whetever they are tagged).

Ok, out of here for some New Years fun. I'm not necessarily against everything you say on here Autotune, but the results of these changes should be thought through and shouldn't unnecessarily damage the server.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.
TL DR

Rotation or no one raids.

[DrKvothe]

The Div plan is far too lenient on TMO. They easily get, what, 7-10 times the raid kills as BDA or Taken? With a similar number of players behind those alt armies? After 2 years of dominance allowing the vast majority of their ~100 people to get epics for at least one if not more of their characters. Yeah, you get new recruits. The difference is they're not 10th in line within the guild for their epic.

If a bag system with a low cap were established, you might only get the same number of targets as BDA or taken, but they'd be whichever ones you chose, you'd still have to track and race, and you have fewer players who need drops for their main and thus can still epic your recruits faster.

Edit: obviously bda supports the div plan and I support bda, but tmo's acting butthurt need to wake up.

[MaksimMazor]

I need 2 more epics I dunno about yall

[fastboy21]

I support a /movelog of all raiding guilds to red until they are ready play nice with each other.

[Arteker]

I support a /movelog of all raiding guilds to red until they are ready play nice with each other.

yessssssss would be interesting,,,,,,,:D

[Frieza_Prexus]

The Div plan is far too lenient on TMO.

Any solution must be fair on its own merits. TMO's punishment was in its suspensions and bannings. Exacting a pound of flesh now does nothing to advance the dialogue.

[DrKvothe]

No pound of flesh. But 90% dominance to 50-70% dominance that still includes all of VP is more than fair.

[Frieza_Prexus]

No pound of flesh. But 90% dominance to 50-70% dominance that still includes all of VP is more than fair.

The hardcores offered 10 uncontested days of raiding a month which included all targets. The 66/33 split was categorically rejected. I personally find that acceptable and fair to both parties.

Simply tack on a provision that any guild killing more than X targets in that 10 day time period is treated as a hardcore for Y days and you've got a self-policing and extremely simple policy that can take immediate effect.

It's a shame that deal was not made.

[-Catherin-]

TL DR

Rotation or no one raids.

Must be the 3rd or 4th time my statement has been quoted, and then warped to your own meaning. My, it has gotten you guys pretty upset, hasn't it?

TL DR is a solution for *everyone*

not just you

not just me

This could mean a rotation, or anything else that the MAJORITY agrees upon.


Trying to pass it off as the "dreaded rotation" feels like a scare tactic to try to get people to rush into an agreement that is only in the best interest of the few before the ban hammer falls. I personally won't be. Hopefully others are keeping up and won't be either.

I stand by what I said. And its not what you are saying I said

QQ more


And happy new year. ;) Not being sarcastic. I really don't hate any of you

[Spacebar]

Reminds me of this:

For it is not difficult to see what must be the consequences when democracy embarks upon a course of planning. The goal of the planning will be described by some such vague term as "the general welfare." There will be no real agreement as to the ends to be attained, and the effect of the people's agreeing that there must be central planning, without agreeing on the ends, will be rather as if a group of people were to commit themselves to take a journey together without agreeing where they want to go: with the result that they may all have to make a journey which most of them do not want at all.

Democratic assemblies cannot function as planning agencies. They cannot produce agreement on everything — the whole direction of the resources of the nation-for the number of possible courses of action will be legion. Even if a congress could, by proceeding step by step and compromising at each point, agree on some scheme, it would certainly in the end satisfy nobody.

[Frieza_Prexus]

that the MAJORITY agrees upon.

The issue that many of us take is that we're measuring the will of the "majority" by using each guild as a single unit of measurement. The voting guilds are not equal in size, influence, and power. It's a complete disconnect to take a purely egalitarian view when such staggering differences exist. Not only have the guilds present in this discussion not been selected by the "majority," but no one has even defined who or what make's up the majority! For example, many posts have been made (some of which were deleted (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133251)) which ask us to both "consider the little guy not yet raiding" and to also not have the audacity to think that we speak for everyone.

The issue is that a specific set of the population has banded together with the spurious idea that making the most noise somehow equals the right to dictate terms.

[Erati]

The issue is that a specific set of the population has banded together with the spurious idea that making the most noise somehow equals the right to dictate terms.

so everyone not TMO/FE got it......

[Troubled]

The issue that many of us take is that we're measuring the will of the "majority" by using each guild as a single unit of measurement. The voting guilds are not equal in size, influence, and power. It's a complete disconnect to take a purely egalitarian view when such staggering differences exist. Not only have the guilds present in this discussion not been selected by the "majority," but no one has even defined who or what make's up the majority! For example, many posts have been made (some of which were deleted (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133251)) which ask us to both "consider the little guy not yet raiding" and to also not have the audacity to think that we speak for everyone.

The issue is that a specific set of the population has banded together with the spurious idea that making the most noise somehow equals the right to dictate terms.

BDA alone possibly larger than FE, IB, & TMO put together. Haven't seen the latest server stats.

[-Catherin-]

I think it was made pretty clear when Rogean put his foot down about this whole thing that the top Dogs are not above us in what is considered a majority and we are not above them. Like it or not that means something needs to happen that everyone is happy with, or at the least are grudgingly be able to accept.

What a few guild's view as their own superior efforts in the raid scene, or their actual sheer numbers does not put them in some sort of higher standing than everyone else.


The issue is that a specific set of the population has banded together with the spurious idea that making the most noise somehow equals the right to dictate terms.

Not agreeing with your terms doesn't mean anyone is dictating anything. It just means they found your terms unacceptable. Dictators also do not make concessions or attempt to compromise. There were concessions in that vent convo and attempts to compromise. More than I feel should be necessary. So drop the dictation tact.

[Kope]

The issue is that a specific set of the population has banded together with the spurious idea that making the most noise somehow equals the right to dictate terms.

I don't know where you got this idea. Both sides seem to be under the impression that if they make a large enough noise their voices will finally be heard. At least that's what it looks like when viewing the boards over the past 2 days.

The current plan was done quietly as not to make big waves, but done with respect to all of the individuals it would currently affect. Its plan was not to punish anyone but to be as broadly appealing and beneficial as possible while still being accepted.

[Tyym]

Troubled Posted BDA alone possibly larger than FE, IB, & TMO put together. Haven't seen the latest server stats.


You know what, I believe you. Then why the hell are you guys whining so much. Put a little effort into the game and knock TMO and us out of the top spot. OH WAIT... You guys might have to put effort into the game. Reducing our ability to hit targets to only 14 days a month so you can clean up uncontested with your mass of underachieving players is a pretty weak offer if you ask me.

You guys need to wake up and look what you are asking. What we are offering is more than acceptable. We have been blamed for server discontent, Obamacare and everything else. The simple solution is to take the offer or it seems we will all suffer the consequences, not just the CAT A guilds.

Morphius
60 Neckbeard of Forceful Entry and insufferable twat

[Autotune]

I still haven't hit 60 so you guys have plenty of time to argue.

[Erati]

You know what, I believe you. Then why the hell are you guys whining so much. Put a little effort into the game and knock TMO and us out of the top spot. OH WAIT... You guys might have to put effort into the game. Reducing our ability to hit targets to only 14 days a month so you can clean up uncontested with your mass of underachieving players is a pretty weak offer if you ask me.


sounds like you havnt even read the counter-proposal that was put on the table by the other guilds....

they were not asking for 14 days of uncontested spawns wtf you still get plenty of targets the first half of the month......yes you dont get 100% of the mobs for half of the month....

[Frieza_Prexus]

What a few guild's view as their own superior efforts in the raid scene, or their actual sheer numbers does not put them in some sort of higher standing than everyone else

No one trait is dispositive of the issue. However, these factors certainly bear consideration.

Not agreeing with your terms doesn't mean anyone is dictating anything. It just means they found your terms unacceptable. Dictators also do not make concessions or attempt to compromise. There were concessions in that vent convo and attempts to compromise. More than I feel should be necessary. So drop the dictation tact.

What is frustrating about this situation is that while not every group has the same potential stake in the raid scene every group has been granted sufficient power to eliminate everyone's stake. I certainly agree that a solution is reachable, and I've said as much. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1248624&postcount=191) However, the zone of agreement appears to be narrowing, and it appears increasingly less like negotiation and more like a hardline. To me at least; I hope I am wrong.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds.

We're playing Chicken with 9 other cars and one of the drivers just ripped off their steering wheel.

[Mezzmur]

Troubled Posted

You know what, I believe you. Then why the hell are you guys whining so much. Put a little effort into the game and knock TMO and us out of the top spot. OH WAIT... You guys might have to put effort into the game. Reducing our ability to hit targets to only 14 days a month so you can clean up uncontested with your mass of underachieving players is a pretty weak offer if you ask me.

You guys need to wake up and look what you are asking. What we are offering is more than acceptable. We have been blamed for server discontent, Obamacare and everything else. The simple solution is to take the offer or it seems we will all suffer the consequences, not just the CAT A guilds.

Morphius
60 Neckbeard of Forceful Entry and insufferable twat

Hit enter early.

I still think 10 day / 20 day hands off primary vs secondary targets seems completely reasonable for guilds not willing/wanting to race/compete with experienced raiders. They still get they chance in the 20 days if they want to track mobs just like BDA and Taken had been doing on the targets they desired.

[-Catherin-]

Must be the 3rd or 4th time my statement has been quoted, and then warped to your own meaning. My, it has gotten you guys pretty upset, hasn't it?

TL DR is a solution for *everyone*

not just you

not just me

This could mean a rotation, or anything else that the MAJORITY agrees upon.


I must now amend this to the 4th or 5th time :)

[-Catherin-]

We're playing Chicken with 9 other cars and one of the drivers just ripped off their steering wheel.

On a lighter note. I loved this analogy even if I question the accuracy of it. the visualization made me giggle IRL.

Should I assume I am the one who ripped off the steering wheel? That IS like me ;)

[Rogean]

Just addressing the title of this thread:

Why would I lock the server because the raid guilds can't come to an agreement? You guys are forgetting you are a minority. The server does NOT revolve around the raid guilds and who gets dragon pixels. The majority of this server enjoys the normal content and I wouldn't allow the raid scene to ruin the server for everyone else.

Stupid suggestion is stupid.

We may, however, just stop spawning raid mobs until an agreement is met. Or just say that they can't be engaged.

[Yinikren]

We've been basically raid suspended for the past 2 1/2 years - a few more months while you guys come to a decision doesn't affect the majority of the server.

Most of the server doesn't have steering wheels on their cars atm.

[Rogean]

We may, however, just stop spawning raid mobs until an agreement is met. Or just say that they can't be engaged.

Sirken beat me: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133098

Sorry, my Forumquesting was slacking.

[Mezzmur]

Sirken beat me: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133098

Sorry, my Forumquesting was slacking.

Rogean is clearly a casual. :D

[Rogean]

It was discussed on Sirken's stream the other day where there have been times I try to keep up with a thread or two, and then 3 hours later I realize to myself "I've sat here for 3 hours forumquesting and I've accomplished nothing." Would rather be working on stuff :P

[Autotune]

It was discussed on Sirken's stream the other day where there have been times I try to keep up with a thread or two, and then 3 hours later I realize to myself "I've sat here for 3 hours forumquesting and I've accomplished nothing." Would rather be working on stuff :P

So, you're saying there is a better chance that I'll be promoted to Emperor of Blue and rule raiding to dictate who gets what when based on my fancy?

[-Catherin-]

It was discussed on Sirken's stream the other day where there have been times I try to keep up with a thread or two, and then 3 hours later I realize to myself "I've sat here for 3 hours forumquesting and I've accomplished nothing." Would rather be working on stuff :P

It's impossible to keep up with it all at this point anyways <3 But I'm sure I don't have to tell you that it's all pretty much the same crying from everyone.

It's like RnF has leeched into server chat. Just need someone to start spamming dick pictures and it would be pretty much complete.

Honestly im surprised we have not all been suspended just because at this point :p

[Yinikren]

Work on stuff, brother! A few weeks without mobs and I am sure people will become much more agreeable to a fair (to all, not 2, 3, 4 guilds) solution.

[NachtMystium]

This is the dumbest fucking shit. Why compromise the whole server due to high-end babby drama? Seriously unprofessional and petty. Who the fuck cares about raid content that's been out for 2~years. Jesus christ I just wanna level my ogre female warrior fuck

[Halfelfbard]

When i get my bard back...ill help u lvl that Female ogre war. It will b glorious!

My View...As a bard.

I went threw 2 computer chairs raiding. Twisting for countless DAYS of time combined...prob a month or more straight just twisting in a sock, or jus waiting for the right time to strike.

Everquest isn't a EZ game, its Time = Reward. U ever train fear for 4 hours straight? Didn't think so.

But, i do believe in fair play...when TMO is in chill mode, i go help other guilds raid. I mean y the hell not?! I was glad to be a guest in some of there raids, I mean shit...keep shit the same, just do be hogs. Mob hogging Scum.
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2008/029/c/2/Dial___B___for_BRAVO_by_LostonWallace.jpg

[Racun]

Just wanted to reply to a couple of questions:
A few people have asked why if people want pixels they don't just compete for them?

My answer to this is that I used to but competitive raiding on this server is a cancer which is one of the primary reasons the GM's are attempted to force a compromise. If raiding involved simply logging on multiple chars or clearing to/engaging a target then sure, I would still do it. But it doesn't. It involves logging on and being abused by multiple members of an opposing raiding guild, then getting "accidentally" trained over and over, then getting FTE sniped. It's all bullshit and against the rules and as I understand it's the primary reason BDA doesn't "compete" as you like to call it.

The second isn't a questions but rather a clarification. A lot of the hardcores here like to throw around the stat "we offered you a 20/10 split but you want a 50/50 and we're unwilling to go that far". It's not really a 20/10 split when 20% of the population are getting 67% of the loot. It's also not a 50/50 split when 20% of the population are getting 50% of the loot, so saying that the divinity proposal isn't advantageous to FE/IB/TMO is a bit of a misinterpretation.

With all of these stats being thrown around there's one question I would like to ask: Which raid guild(s) have submitted the most raid petitions in the past year? Aren't they the ones that have driven the GM's to force a compromise as this is viewed as a waste of their time which could be better spent on fun GM events, catching cheaters or even Velious development?

[Brut]

Ppl focusing alot on just this rotation vs competition thing atm. Enforcing PnP ideas should also be a priority, like stupid FTE shenanigans, marathon mob pulls, obnoxious leapfrogging, putting a sock on the global channel trolls, the "individual actions" where some derp trains the other raid but the guild he belongs in takes no responsibility for it, etc. The fetmoib thing despite being kinda silly in that it was made with no participation from the rest of the server had at least some decent ideas, ie cutting down DA stalling.

Guild council still best idea by far, the worst part of the raidscene has been the status quo where guilds do dumb things, call each other assholes in shout, and then petition so GM can come referee it and the guilds never have to talk to each other. Not having to communicate with the competition builds disrespect and spite for one another, and leads to the nonsense we've had for ages.

[Racun]

ILU Brut. not bazu though. bazu sucks.

[sedrie.bellamie]

I heard the guilds that probably can't kill raid mobs are upset they are not given raid mobs to kill

[Ravager]

The issue is that a specific set of the population has banded together with the spurious idea that making the most noise somehow equals the right to dictate terms.

Irony is fun.

[Aaron]

You guys argued about pixel distribution on New Years Eve?

Nice.

[baramur]

As it should be, as you're kinda the reason we are here. You know you are going in losing mobs. You're just thinking you've given enough when, given the scope of this agreement, it isn't even close.

Entitlement issues. Damn kids.

And you think you are entitled to a certain number of raid mobs, because you play on this server. Love how entitlement word is thrown around only on the big guilds, they arent entitled to shit, but if they faster and kill mobs they earned it. Why not just ask rogean to instance everything, thats all you want. You want no challenge.

[Splorf22]

Everyone in TMO/FE/IB should go back a few pages and read Rogean's comments, and then seriously reconsider whether you guys are in a position to dictate terms to the server. Hint: you aren't.

[Hitpoint]

Everyone in TMO/FE/IB should go back a few pages and read Rogean's comments, and then seriously reconsider whether you guys are in a position to dictate terms to the server. Hint: you aren't.

Sirken's response to someone who sounds basically exactly like you.


Why should we capitulate? We lose very little by the extended raid suspension, you are suggesting the agreements are actually pretty close, and you are in the minority.

this is absolutely the wrong way to be thinking. it is selfish, it is short sighted, and it is immature as fuck. stop thinking about your self and start thinking about whats best for THE SERVER. that means ALL current guilds (yes even the ones you hate), and it means to plan for future players and guilds that may not yet even play here. but if the bit i quoted is really your stance, then you have no business in these talks.

the staff has been and will continue to monitor progress on these discussions. and we reserve the right to do absolutely anything imaginable (or unimaginable), as we see for the betterment of the server's future moving forward.

[Splorf22]

Hitpoint, this is what I was trying to emphasize:

You guys are forgetting you are a minority. The server does NOT revolve around the raid guilds and who gets dragon pixels.

and as for this:

stop thinking about your self and start thinking about whats best for THE SERVER. that means ALL current guilds (yes even the ones you hate), and it means to plan for future players and guilds that may not yet even play here.

I honestly believe that Divinity's plan is a nearly perfect compromise for the server. If you do not think so, its probably because you haven't thought it through. FE and TMO will each be guaranteed about 7% of all spawns via the rotation PLUS have 60% or more of spawns be FFA. Depending on how aggressively you 'compete' during your weeks off you could easily get 70% of all targets. If you do not think that's enough, then reread Sirken's quote again.

[Gwence]

just ban TMO completely and I bet the server comes to an agreement within 20 minutes

[DrKvothe]

just ban TMO completely and I bet the server comes to an agreement within 20 minutes

Ban TMO from all contested spawns other than VP.

[MasterKiljaedon]

You need to consider how top heavy this server is with 60's. I know people in the high end raid guilds with alts sprinkled to the lower guilds that raid on their sky nights. I believe a list needs to be made to identify one primary raid toon you can raid with and not your alts. The staff needs to compile a list and anyone raiding out side their main without swapping names on the list gets banned from raiding. Th would alleviate some congestion and reduce the poopsocking alt armies.

[Sinestria]

Hitpoint, this is what I was trying to emphasize:



and as for this:



I honestly believe that Divinity's plan is a nearly perfect compromise for the server. If you do not think so, its probably because you haven't thought it through. FE and TMO will each be guaranteed about 7% of all spawns via the rotation PLUS have 60% or more of spawns be FFA. Depending on how aggressively you 'compete' during your weeks off you could easily get 70% of all targets. If you do not think that's enough, then reread Sirken's quote again.

I could see why you would endorse this proposal, but I think randoming off all mobs for two weeks is kinda silly. I really believe that a bag limit system would be best for all.

[JayN]

p99 casual's and Mac'ers only please.

What about whats fair to euros no one gives a fuck about them!

TBH the majority of the server doesnt and wont even raid. So im not even sure what this all has to do with the majority of the server.

If it is majority rules you should just ban anyone who has more then 100hrs vested in an account because that of not the kind of behaviors that you want to see on p99!

Why dont GM staff add incentives to something rather then just challenge end game guilds with threats.

I dont understand this hands off approach they claim but then come in threatening gloom and doom when all their demands are not met, which im not even sure what all their demands are even!

[Splorf22]

I could see why you would endorse this proposal, but I think randoming off all mobs for two weeks is kinda silly. I really believe that a bag limit system would be best for all.

I freely admit my bias. But I think that bias is shared among other quite a few other people: a bag limit still requires 'competition' and batphoning and poopsocking and all of the other nonsense. Only a rotation frees us from that idiocy.

[DrKvothe]

The key to the bag limit thing is to have the bag limit be relatively small. Top guild gets VP + 1-3 other targets a month, +1-2 targets for each kill they lose in VP. Other guilds are forced to use their bag limit to take no more than 1/4th or 1/5th of the pie. After the first couple of pie slices (i.e. TMO and FE), competition begins to get a lot more even, and we're not just dealing with the sort of scraps offered by the FE proposal. BDA can't just pick it's top targets and keep them from Taken, Div, etc. the way TMO and FE effectively can. And with 5 pie slices up for grabs, pretty much every guild can get at least a piece of that 5th slice.

TMO just prefers a system where they get their top targets (all of VP) and more than half of all other raid spawns. Which is actually what Div et al. are offering.

[kotton05]

Well here we go moments of truth. A new year without an agreement being met by anyone but TMO and FEib kinda ironic now

[kotton05]

People want free handouts, don't ever want to track. Remove variance and I think it'd be a better place for a rotation like server

[Elements]

People want free handouts, don't ever want to track. Remove variance and I think it'd be a better place for a rotation like server

Aye, let me know when its time to make 20 alts for various guilds in the rotation so I can play on a regular basis.

[JayN]

Well here we go moments of truth. A new year without an agreement being met by anyone but TMO and FEib kinda ironic now

Screw those guys for being organized and trying to come to agreement; we should just ban them all!

Filthy casuals were right all along, about what im not sure.

[Derubael]

Way to take a quote out of context, Splorf:

Just addressing the title of this thread:

Why would I lock the server because the raid guilds can't come to an agreement? You guys are forgetting you are a minority. The server does NOT revolve around the raid guilds and who gets dragon pixels. The majority of this server enjoys the normal content and I wouldn't allow the raid scene to ruin the server for everyone else.

Pretty sure he was talking to all the raid guilds, not just TMO or FE/IB.

Also,

this is absolutely the wrong way to be thinking. it is selfish, it is short sighted, and it is immature as fuck. stop thinking about your self and start thinking about whats best for THE SERVER. that means ALL current guilds (yes even the ones you hate), and it means to plan for future players and guilds that may not yet even play here.

the staff has been and will continue to monitor progress on these discussions. and we reserve the right to do absolutely anything imaginable (or unimaginable), as we see for the betterment of the server's future moving forward.

^That was also to everyone, not just one or two guilds.

[Splorf22]

Pretty sure he was talking to all the raid guilds, not just TMO or FE/IB.

Can I take this as an official statement that The A-Team qualifies as an interested party for any agreements to be hashed out? Because that is not at all clear to anyone, really.

[JayN]

Can I take this as an official statement that The A-Team qualifies as an interested party for any agreements to be hashed out? Because that is not at all clear to anyone, really.

I THINK HE MEANS EVERYONE, not just do as we say or no agrreement

[Derubael]

Can I take this as an official statement that The A-Team qualifies as an interested party for any agreements to be hashed out? Because that is not at all clear to anyone, really.

Not up to me. Ask the other raid guilds.

[BillyCranston]

Except it wasn't a compromise it was a dictation of terms... which is highly laughable.

Will you shut the fuck up already?

[BillyCranston]

just ban TMO completely and I bet the server comes to an agreement within 20 minutes

The real question is why any of them are allowed to come back after being banned. How many times do you allow the one kid in class to stab other children with scissors before you realize they're just not socially fit to be there?

[JayN]

The real question is why any of them are allowed to come back after being banned. How many times do you allow the one kid in class to stab other children with scissors before you realize they're just not socially fit to be there?

Most of them were never banned; guess the same should be asked about any suspended/banned account?

[falkun]

9 guilds isnt a correct total :)

Nine (9) guilds (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133443), straight from the Sky Rotation.

http://www.funnycapture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/BOOM-Headshot.jpg

[Aaron]

Rogean > Alarti

[Alarti0001]

Nine (9) guilds (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133443) DERP




If you are not on this list, make a post with your guild and rank.



Alarti victory confirmed. Incomplete list.

[Autotune]

Alarti victory confirmed. Incomplete list.

I count 9 guilds.

Maybe Alarti's fingers and toes are weird and he has trouble counting them... idk.

[derpcake]

There are simply to many people with characters that are too strong on this server.

Without a rotation, the batphone crew gets everything, with a rotation, hardly anyone gets anything.

Solutions would have to go further then (somewhat) equally dividing encounters. If every guild gets 1 Trakanon every 2 months, thats a massive 6 trakanons a year, I wouldn't want to key a guild like that.

Suggested solution; make raid mobs drop no-drop tokens which GMs can turn into appropriate loot.

This way raid loot can be adjusted so that it is less interesting from a RMT or a lol-4th-twink-item, which would stop the batphone bullshit.

There is no perfect solution to this problem, even the launch of verrrrriouuuuus would simply deplace the problem.

Alternative /complementary solution 1; give people something in exchange for them giving up a lvl 55+ alt. Stuff like a deceivers guise, a unique illusion or a title, a sex-change, whatever doesn't affect power level too much and gets high lvl characters off the server.

Alternative /complementary solution 2; look into the RMTing and hacking and exploiting closer and ban as many as possible. Less lvl 60s will make the server beter for everyone, and do we really want to favor RMTers over legit players?

Currently I see 9 kids in a room, several of them very angry, and they are trying to divide a basketball in 9 equal pieces.

Guess which of them is going to have fun with their 1/9th of a basketball. Not the guys that used to own the field, and not the guys that were never able to play.

Then again this server has its peculiar situation, where even if everyone playing on it loses - some still win.

Really, the best solution would be to ban as many as a reason can be found for.

Flamed on forum? B&

Poopsock? B&

Made a halfling rogue? B&

Really the main problem this server has atm is its population, which is too strong and to plentiful for the content to accomodate.

Start cleaning up broskis. You know you want to, the community wants the result from it, and the only people you will slight are those with dubious backgrounds anyway.

Get out your b&hammers.

[Autotune]

There are simply to many people with characters that are too strong on this server.

Without a rotation, the batphone crew gets everything, with a rotation, hardly anyone gets anything.

Solutions would have to go further then (somewhat) equally dividing encounters. If every guild gets 1 Trakanon every 2 months, thats a massive 6 trakanons a year, I wouldn't want to key a guild like that.

Suggested solution; make raid mobs drop no-drop tokens which GMs can turn into appropriate loot.

This way raid loot can be adjusted so that it is less interesting from a RMT or a lol-4th-twink-item, which would stop the batphone bullshit.

There is no perfect solution to this problem, even the launch of verrrrriouuuuus would simply deplace the problem.

Alternative /complementary solution 1; give people something in exchange for them giving up a lvl 55+ alt. Stuff like a deceivers guise, a unique illusion or a title, a sex-change, whatever doesn't affect power level too much and gets high lvl characters off the server.

Alternative /complementary solution 2; look into the RMTing and hacking and exploiting closer and ban as many as possible. Less lvl 60s will make the server beter for everyone, and do we really want to favor RMTers over legit players?

Currently I see 9 kids in a room, several of them very angry, and they are trying to divide a basketball in 9 equal pieces.

Guess which of them is going to have fun with their 1/9th of a basketball. Not the guys that used to own the field, and not the guys that were never able to play.

Then again this server has its peculiar situation, where even if everyone playing on it loses - some still win.

Really, the best solution would be to ban as many as a reason can be found for.

Flamed on forum? B&

Poopsock? B&

Made a halfling rogue? B&

Really the main problem this server has atm is its population, which is too strong and to plentiful for the content to accomodate.

Start cleaning up broskis. You know you want to, the community wants the result from it, and the only people you will slight are those with dubious backgrounds anyway.

Get out your b&hammers.

we don't need a drastic solution to a temporary problem that will work itself mostly out come velious.

[Alarti0001]

I count 9 guilds.

Maybe Alarti's fingers and toes are weird and he has trouble counting them... idk.

You are so worthless. Rogean implied his list of 9 wasn't complete. How can you possibly not understand this? Is the education system in Alabama really this terrible?