Proposition For Raid Rules - Input Requested

[Ungriim]

First off I would like to say that this has been talked up to a few people in private - and has not been decided on yet by any guild. That being said this is what I propose, and would like feedback on it.

1. VP will remain FTE by any guild at all times.
Regardless of what goes on outside of VP, at all times VP will remain a CSR zone with no training and standard current FTE rules. Pull locations can be decided by guilds (ie zone in kills legal or not etc.)

2. The 2 hour window stall remains in effect.
Outside of VP - whoever kills a Kunark or Classic Dragon will be required to wait 2 hours before making an attempt the next time the dragon pops.

3. Forced raid breaks for high-kill guilds

Explaination: If you look at whokilledit.com, there are 2 dragons on 3 day (~8 kills a month) and 9 dragons on 7 day (~36 kills a month) for a total of roughly 44 dragon kills per month. Lets take that at a 25% rate. 11 dragons a month. ANY guild that kills more than 11 dragons a month is forced to take a raid break from Classic/Kunark dragons for the first week of the following month.

Reasoning: A lot of people are concerned that this 2 hour window thing will just create a top-2-guild-rotation and still not help the server population / nostalgia / raid scene out. I believe that this rule will either 1) Have the top guild sitting out for a week - and more than likely a couple of them sitting out, -or- 2) If they try to dodge it by killing only 11 dragons, then they will be leaving other dragons up anyways by picking and choosing.

VP: The 11 Dragon kill count WILL include VP dragon deaths, but the ruling WILL NOT suspend you from killing dragons in VP - see Rule #1.

4. Suggestion - Rogean reopens Raid Forum
Topic with each mob, guild leaders post in the topic when the mob is killed and by who. Topic to keep track of dragon tallies stickied. Allow everyone to see topics and post about possible raid alterations/solutions.





I am looking for honest opinions from different guilds and players on what you think about this scenario. I personally feel that it will allow other guilds to kill dragons, still allow higher end guilds to compete in VP, AND it will give hardcore players a break once a month from having to answer those goddamn batphones at 3am for Talendor.

Please dont 'trolololol this will never work' - be constructive.

[toosweet]

1 and 2 great
3 not so much

[radditsu]

1. With training illegal. explain to me why where you pull matters? Even the ledge should be opened up.

Also would like to see a gentlemenly agreement that you can't sit on a spawn point in VP. A race to pull/setup/kill the mobs. Fte should be absolutely respected until the guild wipes. FTE sniping (less than 2 groups in the zone on a pull.) should be strictly monitored. Leapfrogging after a mob has fte shouted and pulled to "eat a train" to look like a suspenable offense should also be monitored. Pullers are in vent and should know the position of the raid.

[Alarti0001]

I have a simple solution. Lets have FE/IB/TMO agree to no poopsocking, no delayed engages, and to leave up 4 dracos, and 2 naggy/vox/tal/sev/gore/fay/inny in an 8/4 cycle. (50%)

CT/Trak/VP always complete, and the draco that pops with CT always compete.

[Ungriim]

radditsu - the pathing in VP is horrible, shit walks all over the place, paths thru walls, and you can possibly make a dragon run up and down a bridge 5 times just by clicking levi on and off - so it would be in effort to erase stalling shennanigans (ie kiting rules)

[radditsu]

radditsu - the pathing in VP is horrible, shit walks all over the place, paths thru walls, and you can possibly make a dragon run up and down a bridge 5 times just by clicking levi on and off - so it would be in effort to erase stalling shennanigans (ie kiting rules)

Oh I am very aware of the pathing. I think on more than one occasion I have said to just leash them.

I was just thinking of the "fun" of the pull. I have a soft spot for pulling mechanics and its fun to do.

[Ungriim]

Alarti - I don't believe current raiders would agree to such a drastic change

[Ungriim]

Oh I am very aware of the pathing. I think on more than one occasion I have said to just leash them.

I was just thinking of the "fun" of the pull. I have a soft spot for pulling mechanics and its fun to do.

Fair enough!

[Alarti0001]

Alarti - I don't believe current raiders would agree to such a drastic change

Why? It opens up alot of mobs. It keeps the good ones in a competitive arena. Casual guilds will get a 400% increase in targets.

Whats not to love.

[radditsu]

CT DT cycle worries me.

[lazcar]

There are roughly 7 or so guilds capable of killing all the dragons outside if vp. One possible change to #3 which would not cause guilds to take a week off raiding would be the following:

No guild may have more than 40% of the last 10 dragon kills for any dragon(including vs inny, ct). This would essentially leave 2/10 kills for other guilds.. If you drop it to 30% then it would be 4 kills.

Each dragon would count separately. So a guild could kill 4 of each every 10 spawns of each.

For example: every 10 trak fe/ib kills 4, tmo kills 4, 2 up for grabs
Every 10 ct same thing
Every 10 vs same thing

[Splorf22]

So in practice this would mean that TMO and FE/IB would leave up Talendor, Severilious, Nagafen, Vox, Gorenaire, Faydedar, and Trakanon the first week of each month, while still taking CT, VS, Inny, and VP? So that's about 1/8 of all mobs to the casual carebear scum, and weighted towards the worst . . . not that unreasonable IMO.

The two hour rule would be a de facto rotation between FE/IB and TMO, but if Taken/BDA/Divinity etc wanted to track/batphone/poopsock something they'd only be competing against one of the two, which would improve their chances . . . also not that unreasonable IMO.

I feel like real solutions have to be mechanics changes though.

[Alarti0001]

CT DT cycle worries me.

Its broken at the moment.

[Alarti0001]

So in practice this would mean that TMO and FE/IB would leave up Talendor, Severilious, Nagafen, Vox, Gorenaire, Faydedar, and Trakanon the first week of each month, while still taking CT, VS, Inny, and VP? So that's about 1/8 of all mobs to the casual carebear scum, and weighted towards the worst . . . not that unreasonable IMO.

The two hour rule would be a de facto rotation between FE/IB and TMO, but if Taken/BDA/Divinity etc wanted to track/batphone/poopsock something they'd only be competing against one of the two, which would improve their chances . . . also not that unreasonable IMO.

I feel like real solutions have to be mechanics changes though.

No we would leave 2 of those targets listed a month and 4 dracos. VS/Trak/CT/VP will still be competition so they are free to fight for FTE on those also.

[sanforce]

I have a simple solution. Lets have FE/IB/TMO agree to no poopsocking, no delayed engages, and to leave up 4 dracos, and 2 naggy/vox/tal/sev/gore/fay/inny in an 8/4 cycle. (50%)

CT/Trak/VP always complete, and the draco that pops with CT always compete.

I like this, and if guilds decide to start competing then they can no longer engage the mobs that are left up.

[Ungriim]

Alarti - I'm sure that some people would love it and some would hate it. Current raiders would be upset that they cant get as much as they want, and probably form side guilds with silly names to grab more dragons. Has to be a happy medium

Splorf - In alarti's proposition yes. In mine it would potentially start off as IBFE/TMO getting all the mobs the first month (norm) then taking a week off from world spawns outside VP, then see from there how it is played...

[radditsu]

Its broken at the moment.

Not working at all?

Either way CT should be rotated or some version of first in force. First two guilds in the portal get to play or something. I can just imagine if 6 guilds are in there would cause a ton of issues.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti - I'm sure that some people would love it and some would hate it. Current raiders would be upset that they cant get as much as they want, and probably form side guilds with silly names to grab more dragons. Has to be a happy medium

Splorf - In alarti's proposition yes. In mine it would potentially start off as IBFE/TMO getting all the mobs the first month (norm) then taking a week off from world spawns outside VP, then see from there how it is played...

Silly side guilds can be named/shamed on the front page or banned for raid agreement evasion(gm enforced implied by rogean)

[Ungriim]

I like this, and if guilds decide to start competing then they can no longer engage the mobs that are left up.

Sooo.....you can either have what you're given....but if you try to compete you get nothing? (until you figure out how to out FTE guilds that have been doing it for years and have the player force to button mash all day?)

[Alarti0001]

Not working at all?

Either way CT should be rotated or some version of first in force. First two guilds in the portal get to play or something. I can just imagine if 6 guilds are in there would cause a ton of issues.

Ya what the DT cycle "Seems" to do is save up dts. Instead of dting every 30 sec it "seems" to just machine gun you on engage.

[radditsu]

Ya what the DT cycle "Seems" to do is save up dts. Instead of dting every 30 sec it "seems" to just machine gun you on engage.

Holy crap that's awesome. Send me some frap links, I wanna see that warlock in action

[Alarti0001]

I like this, and if guilds decide to start competing then they can no longer engage the mobs that are left up.

Nah I think let the competition happen. Its not like Taken or BDA will be on FE/IB/TMO level anytime soon. If at some point they start getting tough in VP/Trak/CT/VS then we can talk about adding them to the "uber" club.

[Alarti0001]

Holy crap that's awesome. Send me some frap links, I wanna see that warlock in action

Hah i think the most i've seen at a time is 7 or so DT's. It was brutal. FE got that CT after we got machine gunned.

[Derubael]

2 hr/1 mob rule is just a rotation between fe/ib and tmo. It's a good start, and works well while tmo is raid suspended, but its going to be those two groups trading mobs once tmo is back and everyone knows it.

alarti's proposal is good. if fe/ib would agree to it, it means you can still have competition, but lets the 'casual scum' (you guys crack me up) compete with other 'casual scum' and have lots of fun while doing it.

I think you guys all need to come to some sort of agreement on your own, but from where I'm sitting, this is a reasonable concession that looks good on paper and would probably look good in practice.

[Alarti0001]

2 hr/1 mob rule is just a rotation between fe/ib and tmo. It's a good start, and works well while tmo is raid suspended, but its going to be those two groups trading mobs once tmo is back and everyone knows it.

alarti's proposal is good. if fe/ib would agree to it, it means you can still have competition, but lets the 'casual scum' (you guys crack me up) compete with other 'casual scum' and have lots of fun while doing it.

I think you guys all need to come to some sort of agreement on your own, but from where I'm sitting, this is a reasonable concession that looks good on paper and would probably look good in practice.

Thanks deru !

[Ungriim]

So Alarti's response to Rogean's post of:
If we do not see a significant improvement in the behavior of the raiding guilds and how they treat eachother, Velious will be released without raid content. To be clear, we want an enjoyable raid scene for everyone, not just one or two guilds.


Is to leave it the same. Ok, you can stop posting now.

[lazcar]

No reason BDA/ taken should be locked out of trak/vs/ct/inny they can obviously kill them. Whatever new raid policy should have them included on kills for these top mobs.

[Ungriim]

The major flaw I see in Alarti's proposal is that you're still denying 6 classes of epics outside of your own guild - edit outside of IB/FE/TMO

[Derubael]

the other option i can see would be a 2 hr/2 mob rule.

if you were to take ct/vs/trak:

ct - tmo kills - > fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
trak - fe/ib kills - > tmo kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
vs - tmo kills -> fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here

in practice, I think alarti's proposal would mean more mobs overall for the 'casual scum'. but I guess this way all the targets would be open to at least 1 'casual scum' kill a month.

**edit** alarti's proposal doesn't 'lock out' any guilds. if bda wants trak/vs/ct (ie, the 'top mobs') they can still compete on those mobs.

[Alarti0001]

The major flaw I see in Alarti's proposal is that you're still denying 6 classes of epics outside of your own guild - edit outside of IB/FE/TMO

Not denied. Earned. There has to be some reward for a effort based system too. This is a happy compromise imo. Most people didn't get epics until well into Velious. This is why alot of epics were changed to have more obtainable parts, Bard/Wiz/Dru/Ranger etc.

@lazcar this is a compromise not a fully casual raid scene. Taken if they had VP keys could kill in VP too. Any guild can kill trakanon or VS/CT. To make it competitive... can you beat TMO/FE/IB to them?

[radditsu]

I would like to see thoughts about CT to prevent the (sometimes) awful chikanery that can go on...if DT's ever get fixed.

[lazcar]

Allow each guild 1 high tier kill per week and 4 low tier kills per week.

High tier :

Vs
Ct
Inny
Trak

Low tier:
All dragons and air mobs

[Alarti0001]

the other option i can see would be a 2 hr/2 mob rule.

if you were to take ct/vs/trak:

ct - tmo kills - > fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
trak - fe/ib kills - > tmo kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
vs - tmo kills -> fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here

in practice, I think alarti's proposal would mean more mobs overall for the 'casual scum'. but I guess this way all the targets would be open to at least 1 'casual scum' kill a month.

**edit** alarti's proposal doesn't 'lock out' any guilds. if bda wants trak/vs/ct (ie, the 'top mobs') they can still compete on those mobs.

Yaa too much rotation. That will just become a 3 guild rotation in time... then eventually a 4 guild rotation and so on.

[Alarti0001]

I would like to see thoughts about CT to prevent the (sometimes) awful chikanery that can go on...if DT's ever get fixed.

Let them happen. CT is the best raid on the server, from a competitive standpoint.

[Fazlazen]

the other option i can see would be a 2 hr/2 mob rule.

if you were to take ct/vs/trak:

ct - tmo kills - > fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
trak - fe/ib kills - > tmo kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
vs - tmo kills -> fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here

in practice, I think alarti's proposal would mean more mobs overall for the 'casual scum'. but I guess this way all the targets would be open to at least 1 'casual scum' kill a month.

**edit** alarti's proposal doesn't 'lock out' any guilds. if bda wants trak/vs/ct (ie, the 'top mobs') they can still compete on those mobs.

Well the "casual scum" is in 90% of the cases BDA, so it would just be a 3 way rotation with BDA anyways... not any better.

[lazcar]

@alarti your compromise just makes things easier for you and fe/ib.. That is not the problem with the status quo as you both get kills. The problem is what you do to get them. If you didn't have to do that then a lot of other guilds would get kills also. The point of this isn't that because you guys poopsock and always get mobs... And not that there will be improvements you should still get all the mobs. The problem is mobs need to be spread outside of the poopsocking elite. See what happened the last two weeks? Other guilds are getting kills.. People are happy.

[Alarti0001]

@alarti your compromise just makes things easier for you and fe/ib.. That is not the problem with the status quo as you both get kills. The problem is what you do to get them. If you didn't have to do that then a lot of other guilds would get kills also. The point of this isn't that because you guys poopsock and always get mobs... And not that there will be improvements you should still get all the mobs. The problem is mobs need to be spread outside of the poopsocking elite. See what happened the last two weeks? Other guilds are getting kills.. People are happy.

Other guilds are getting kills because 100 raids are out of the picture. How will this work when we come back? You can either make solutions for the real situation or for a fake situation.
The 2 hour rule is nothing but a thinly veiled 2 guild rotation.

Also, how does my solution not spread out mobs. Before Taken was getting 1-2 mobs a week and BDA was getting 1-2 mobs a weel

My solution gives you the potential to get 18 mobs a month without having to fight FE/IB/TMO. Do the math.

[radditsu]

Rotations..by and large, will make the high end just as stale as having alts camped out and killing stuff in 20 seconds.

What we really need is like a VERSUS system on like CT. Having more than 2 guilds in fear is just not feasible really.

1st. TMO VS FE/IB
2nd Taken VS TMO
3rd FE VS Taken
4th open
5th A-team VS TMO
6th Taken VS FE

like a basketball schedule or something, If you kill x open world dragons you get put on the sched.

Its competitive, but structured.

[Ravager]

I like the idea of weekend rotations. Every guild that wants a rotation does it on the weekends, every guild that wants to do fte competitions does that during the week. Leave VP out of the weekend rotations. It's simple and easy to remember and it means that 70% of the mobs are still FTE competitions (actually more, since VP wouldn't be rotated).

Plus this would mean that casual guilds would only have to track for 2 days. It draws a clear line between who is casual and who is 'hard core' too, and neither has to step on each other's toes with leap-frogging or poopsocks.

[Derubael]

The other option i can see would be a 2 hr/2 mob rule.

if you were to take ct/vs/trak:

ct - tmo kills - > fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
trak - fe/ib kills - > tmo kills -> 'casual scum' kill here
vs - tmo kills -> fe/ib kills -> 'casual scum' kill here

in practice, I think alarti's proposal would mean more mobs overall for the 'casual scum'. but I guess this way all the targets would be open to at least 1 'casual scum' kill a month.

**edit** alarti's proposal doesn't 'lock out' any guilds. if bda wants trak/vs/ct (ie, the 'top mobs') they can still compete on those mobs.Well the "casual scum" is in 90% of the cases BDA, so it would just be a 3 way rotation with BDA anyways... not any better.

You guys are counting out Taken without even giving them a chance. It also makes the barrier of entry on every 'casual scum' kill much, much less difficult. Would BDA take most of the 'casual scum' kills? MAYBE at first. but at least people looking to enter and get kills would be on a closer mobilization/numbers/organization level to their competition.

by the logic you guys are using, BDA is just going to get all the 'casual' targets in alartis proposal anyway, right?

[Elements]

2 hr/1 mob rule is just a rotation between fe/ib and tmo. It's a good start, and works well while tmo is raid suspended, but its going to be those two groups trading mobs once tmo is back and everyone knows it.

alarti's proposal is good. if fe/ib would agree to it, it means you can still have competition, but lets the 'casual scum' (you guys crack me up) compete with other 'casual scum' and have lots of fun while doing it.

I think you guys all need to come to some sort of agreement on your own, but from where I'm sitting, this is a reasonable concession that looks good on paper and would probably look good in practice.

I'd like to suggest that the draco/sev/tal/etc mobs that get left up are the FIRST spawns of the month so that there is no confusion or silly counting. When the clock ticks over to 12:00 AM est on the first of the month, those next spawns are left up for 24 hours for the "casual" guilds. If they are still up 24 hours after pop they become open to anyone. If a guild kills 2nd spawn onward in the month then they remove themselves from the casual pool. So if guild X kills Trak, or Inny, or what ever later in the month then they are not eligible for the first spawn of the next month being left up for at least 24 hours for the casuals.

VS/Trak/CT/VP remain competitive.

[Alarti0001]

Rotations..by and large, will make the high end just as stale as having alts camped out and killing stuff in 20 seconds.

What we really need is like a VERSUS system on like CT. Having more than 2 guilds in fear is just not feasible really.

1st. TMO VS FE/IB
2nd Taken VS TMO
3rd FE VS Taken
4th open
5th A-team VS TMO
6th Taken VS FE

like a basketball schedule or something, If you kill x open world dragons you get put on the sched.

Its competitive, but structured.

Having more than 2 guilds in Fear is fun. What I noticed when BDA comes in or Taken etc... is they don't pay attention or communicate well. You would have 8 DT's before you camped out. At most there should be 2.

Don't kill CT encounter ! Its too much fun

[lazcar]

It will work very easily. Rotate between you, fe/ib, and all the other guilds on the server.. 33% of kills is still very reasonable, considering you don't need anything from any of the mobs on your mains anyways... Wasn't there a saying in classic... Need before greed??

Maybe some people here (Alarti) need to go back to fundamentals of pre-k and kindergarten where you learned to share.

[radditsu]

Having more than 2 guilds in Fear is fun. What I noticed when BDA comes in or Taken etc... is they don't pay attention or communicate well. You would have 8 DT's before you camped out. At most there should be 2.

Don't kill CT encounter ! Its too much fun

I know this versus thing is a kernel of a good idea. I just haven't fleshed it out yet. It's not a rotation, but its not a shit fest we have. CT is just what I am fixated on right now...that raid is the pits when DT cycles are constantly going.

[Alarti0001]

It will work very easily. Rotate between you, fe/ib, and all the other guilds on the server.. 33% of kills is still very reasonable, considering you don't need anything from any of the mobs on your mains anyways... Wasn't there a saying in classic... Need before greed??

Maybe some people here (Alarti) need to go back to fundamentals of pre-k and kindergarten where you learned to share.

Sounds like marxism!

EQ is a capitalistic game.

[Ravager]

At any rate, I think it'd be really cool if at least a few Naggy and Voxs could be left up for server-wide open raid fusterclucks.

[Alarti0001]

I know this versus thing is a kernel of a good idea. I just haven't fleshed it out yet. It's not a rotation, but its not a shit fest we have. CT is just what I am fixated on right now...that raid is the pits when DT cycles are constantly going.

Hmm as an addition to my idea, the casual mobs must be killed within 12 hrs of spawn or they are open. No delaying of spawntimers etc.

[Splorf22]

IMO the primary problem is still variance <shrug>

Sirken why can't you guys agree to just run that repop script that rogean did once every week or two?

You know that on repops a) casual scum get a lot of mobs and b) douchebaggery is hugely reduced and c) there is no need for elaborate agreements?

Why is this not on the table?

[Alarti0001]

"remaining competitive" is the problem. you don't even realize what is going on. IT IS NOT COMPETITIVE. you guys don't even know what that means anymore.

tracking for 4 days, bat-phoning at 4am, logging in fully buffed characters at the mob spawn point, and then trying to dick over the other guild by using shady ass FTE tactics, then to run logs, have camera crews working fraps angles, and to pretty much post a giant ass petition AND / OR RNF thread about the encounter as standard procedures.

=not competing, but rather being psychotic, and about pixels

You have never been competitive other than when you won a darwin award. Don't speak about what you don't know.

[radditsu]

At any rate, I think it'd be really cool if at least a few Naggy and Voxs could be left up for server-wide open raid fusterclucks.

1 or 2 naggys a month.


1 vox imo due to the fact that server-wide raids have never really won with her. Last TMO suspension she was up for awhile. We do want to keep the spawn timers going.

[Alarti0001]

"remaining competitive" is the problem. you don't even realize what is going on. IT IS NOT COMPETITIVE. you guys don't even know what that means anymore.

tracking for 4 days, bat-phoning at 4am, logging in fully buffed characters at the mob spawn point, and then trying to dick over the other guild by using shady ass FTE tactics, then to run logs, have camera crews working fraps angles, and to pretty much post a giant ass petition AND / OR RNF thread about the encounter as standard procedures.

=not competing, but rather being psychotic, and about pixels

You guys are counting out Taken without even giving them a chance. It also makes the barrier of entry on every 'casual scum' kill much, much less difficult. Would BDA take most of the 'casual scum' kills? MAYBE at first. but at least people looking to enter and get kills would be on a closer mobilization/numbers/organization level to their competition.

by the logic you guys are using, BDA is just going to get all the 'casual' targets in alartis proposal anyway, right?

Nothing would stop the Casuals from "rotating" these mobs as they have preached for years.

[lazcar]

Sounds like marxism!

EQ is a capitalistic game.

Obviously you don't see things aren't working in this manor.

[Ungriim]

"remaining competitive" is the problem. you don't even realize what is going on. IT IS NOT COMPETITIVE. you guys don't even know what that means anymore.

tracking for 4 days, bat-phoning at 4am, logging in fully buffed characters at the mob spawn point, and then trying to dick over the other guild by using shady ass FTE tactics, then to run logs, have camera crews working fraps angles, and to pretty much post a giant ass petition AND / OR RNF thread about the encounter as standard procedures.

=not competing, but rather being psychotic, and about pixels

[Alarti0001]

Obviously you don't see things aren't working in this manor.

You are a Marxist with a Manor? Hmmmmmm, the proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains.

[Elements]

I'd like to suggest that the draco/sev/tal/etc mobs that get left up are the FIRST spawns of the month so that there is no confusion or silly counting. When the clock ticks over to 12:00 AM est on the first of the month, those next spawns are left up for 24 hours for the "casual" guilds. If they are still up 24 hours after pop they become open to anyone. If a guild kills 2nd spawn onward in the month then they remove themselves from the casual pool. So if guild X kills Trak, or Inny, or what ever later in the month then they are not eligible for the first spawn of the next month being left up for at least 24 hours for the casuals.

VS/Trak/CT/VP remain competitive.

Since some of the more casual folks seem bent on having a rotation, they could try and work out a rotation for the first spawns of every month if they so desire.

[Ungriim]

Is 3 years worth of CT not enough for you? FFS

[Ravager]

1 or 2 naggys a month.


1 vox imo due to the fact that server-wide raids have never really won with her. Last TMO suspension she was up for awhile. We do want to keep the spawn timers going.

That's in the neighborhood of what I was thinking.

[Lammy]

Sirken why can't you guys agree to just run that repop script that rogean did once every week or two?

You know that on repops a) casual scum get a lot of mobs and b) douchebaggery is hugely reduced and c) there is no need for elaborate agreements?

Why is this not on the table?

This is the one that makes most sense to me.

[Elements]

If you want to share and be "competitive", I propose this:

Rotation system, where the top two guilds are slotted together and maybe even more often. Or a SLot for competition and the guilds that like to compete can compete on those days and not enter the rotation for their free mobs.

Might go like this:

CT:
week 1: Competitive (tmo and ib can jerk each other off and fiddle fuck around with trains and shit)
week 2: taken
week 3: bda
week 4: divinity
week 5: competition

This is pretty much what we have been proposing, except week 1: non FE/IB/TMO, rest of the month competitive.

[Alarti0001]

Is 3 years worth of CT not enough for you? FFS

There is never enough CT. Ever. Darkwood trunks x1000 AON x10

[Ungriim]

If you want to share and be "competitive", I propose this:

Rotation system, where the top two guilds are slotted together and maybe even more often. Or a SLot for competition and the guilds that like to compete can compete on those days and not enter the rotation for their free mobs.

Might go like this:

CT:
week 1: Competitive (tmo and ib can jerk each other off and fiddle fuck around with trains and shit)
week 2: taken
week 3: bda
week 4: divinity
week 5: competition


My hope with my idea was that theres pretty much 2 tiers of competition, the higher of which gets forced to allow 1 of each mob outside of VP a month.

[sanforce]

I like the first of the month idea. First of the month raid mobs get left up for 24 hours, excluding vp, trak, vs. If a guild starts winning lots of actual raid targets under competition, they get added to the uber list.

[lazcar]

Whatever the solution is it should include guilds like BDA and taken killing the big4. It should involve A-team, divinity, and anyone else that wants getting a shot at a dragon every week or 2. Open naggy once a week would be a fun bonus.

[radditsu]

You have never been competitive other than when you won a darwin award. Don't speak about what you don't know.

Competitive to me is versus environment. Competitive to some TMO/FE/IB/whatever is vs other players. TMO is not going to go away, as much as we wanted them to. They are a raid guild and they need to be part of a discussion. If the majority of guilds WANT a rotation..then it should be done. TMO,FE,IB,and I am pretty sure Taken and BDA would not vote for a full rotation. I have always been trying to find ways to maximize fun in these discussions. They ARE allowed to have a voice. Cept the trolls... F those guys.


The Basic thought process is for people to leave X mobs up Y amount of hours after Z amount of ffa spawns. Personally in this very basic thought process, everything except VP should be on the table to be killed in this manner. This would be a basic and rudimentary compromise.

XYZ=Compromise

Figure out those three numbers!


Now back to my rambling:

My Guild VS Guild per spawn idea would give the neckbeards something to froth about, and keep TMO/ FE/IB off of some spawns. It would add flavor to it. Stick that shit in a fantasy football scheduler as more people get on/off the list and it would be easy to manage.

[Ungriim]

raddistu you mean VS as in current venril sathir encounter environment or as in versus?

[radditsu]

raddistu you mean VS as in current venril sathir encounter environment or as in versus?

yeah versus. Ill edit the post.

[lazcar]

Why kill competition? Go every other.

Elite guilds: tmo, fe, ib
Other guilds: everyone else
High tier mobs: trak vs inny ct
Low tier mobs: everyone else

Week 1: elite guilds compete for high tier, other guilds compete for low tier
Week 2: other guilds compete for high tier, elite guilds compete for everything else
Rinse, repeat
Remove variance.
This would not be a rotation.. No free kills.

[Alarti0001]

Whatever the solution is it should include guilds like BDA and taken killing the big4. It should involve A-team, divinity, and anyone else that wants getting a shot at a dragon every week or 2. Open naggy once a week would be a fun bonus.

If you wanted the big 4 you had all the time in the world to demonstrate you want of those targets by showing up and competing for FTE. Your level of desire isn't backed up by your commitment/effort. To demand that TMO/FE/IB needs to rotate on the targets they really need with people who want to put in 1/10th of the effort is asinine at best. Getting half of 7 dragons/gods for free is beyond fair. The rest you can compete for imo.

[radditsu]

Why kill competition? Go every other.

Elite guilds: tmo, fe, ib
Other guilds: everyone else
High tier mobs: trak vs inny ct
Low tier mobs: everyone else

Week 1: elite guilds compete for high tier, other guilds compete for low tier
Week 2: other guilds compete for high tier, elite guilds compete for everything else

Remove variance.

+-4 hour variance. IMO , It shakes things up a tad. But isnt a tracking slog.

[SyanideGas]

First off I would like to say that this has been talked up to a few people in private - and has not been decided on yet by any guild. That being said this is what I propose, and would like feedback on it.

1. VP will remain FTE by any guild at all times.
Regardless of what goes on outside of VP, at all times VP will remain a CSR zone with no training and standard current FTE rules. Pull locations can be decided by guilds (ie zone in kills legal or not etc.)

2. The 2 hour window stall remains in effect.
Outside of VP - whoever kills a Kunark or Classic Dragon will be required to wait 2 hours before making an attempt the next time the dragon pops.

3. Forced raid breaks for high-kill guilds

Explaination: If you look at whokilledit.com, there are 2 dragons on 3 day (~8 kills a month) and 9 dragons on 7 day (~36 kills a month) for a total of roughly 44 dragon kills per month. Lets take that at a 25% rate. 11 dragons a month. ANY guild that kills more than 11 dragons a month is forced to take a raid break from Classic/Kunark dragons for the first week of the following month.

Reasoning: A lot of people are concerned that this 2 hour window thing will just create a top-2-guild-rotation and still not help the server population / nostalgia / raid scene out. I believe that this rule will either 1) Have the top guild sitting out for a week - and more than likely a couple of them sitting out, -or- 2) If they try to dodge it by killing only 11 dragons, then they will be leaving other dragons up anyways by picking and choosing.

VP: The 11 Dragon kill count WILL include VP dragon deaths, but the ruling WILL NOT suspend you from killing dragons in VP - see Rule #1.

4. Suggestion - Rogean reopens Raid Forum
Topic with each mob, guild leaders post in the topic when the mob is killed and by who. Topic to keep track of dragon tallies stickied. Allow everyone to see topics and post about possible raid alterations/solutions.





I am looking for honest opinions from different guilds and players on what you think about this scenario. I personally feel that it will allow other guilds to kill dragons, still allow higher end guilds to compete in VP, AND it will give hardcore players a break once a month from having to answer those goddamn batphones at 3am for Talendor.

Please dont 'trolololol this will never work' - be constructive.

I 2nd this motion.

[Splorf22]

Again, why are people so against repops? We know Nilbog likes them. On a repop everyone can compete to their hearts content.

The current attitude of the staff is like dumping 20 people into a small room and telling them 'don't step on each others toes'.

Repops would be fantastic in Kunark and truly epic in Velious, and we just saw from Rogean that they can be accomplished in like 2 minutes of commands.

So what is the fucking downside?

[Ungriim]

I like the first of the month idea. First of the month raid mobs get left up for 24 hours, excluding vp, trak, vs. If a guild starts winning lots of actual raid targets under competition, they get added to the uber list.

I wanted it to be a week just to make it easy so we dont have to keep timers on everything. For example sometimes there would be 1 CT spawn in a week, sometimes 0, sometimes 2 - depending on variance.

As far as the lower guilds go - YES if BDA oversteps too much for example, and gets 15 dragons say - then they will also be added to the no kill list. Then theyre off the same week as tmo/fe/ib and then other guilds who are not typically able to kill as many dragons would get more chances - IE even the super low play casual guilds would potentially have a fair shot every other month at a mob or two

[Nirgon]

Alarti offers a fair solution. Inb4 Derubael doesn't think so too.

[radditsu]

If you wanted the big 4 you had all the time in the world to demonstrate you want of those targets by showing up and competing for FTE. Your level of desire isn't backed up by your commitment/effort. To demand that TMO/FE/IB needs to rotate on the targets they really need with people who want to put in 1/10th of the effort is asinine at best. Getting half of 7 dragons/gods for free is beyond fair. The rest you can compete for imo.

BDA has killed gore on a few occasions, and had a hand in some VP kills as well. If they can demonstrate that now, I would consider them an "elite" guild.

[Alarti0001]

Again, why are people so against repops? We know Nilbog likes them. On a repop everyone can compete to their hearts content.

The current attitude of the staff is like dumping 20 people into a small room and telling them 'don't step on each others toes'. Sure you can blame the retard who immediately whips out his switchblade and starts going on and on about competition, but its not an easy situation.

Repops would be fantastic in Kunark and truly epic in Velious, and we just saw from Rogean that they can be accomplished in like 2 minutes of commands.

So what is the fucking downside?

Downside.. when would they repops happen? What about our euro players...
I love repops.. most fun to be had on the server. Too many repops devalues effort and items also. (not the biggest deal) but do we really want another 100 VS's before Velious? Repops won't solve everything either. The people getting 90% of the mobs would still be TMO/FE/IB and the trash would be cleaned up by the other entrenched guilds Taken/BDA/Div.

[lazcar]

Alarti' solution is not good enough.. MAybe if it had been offered up a year ago but it has been a monopoly for too long.. Now that change is possible why settle for so little?

[radditsu]

Again, why are people so against repops? We know Nilbog likes them. On a repop everyone can compete to their hearts content.

The current attitude of the staff is like dumping 20 people into a small room and telling them 'don't step on each others toes'.

Repops would be fantastic in Kunark and truly epic in Velious, and we just saw from Rogean that they can be accomplished in like 2 minutes of commands.

So what is the fucking downside?

Nobody that plays the game hates repops. It has everything to do with a technical limitation at the moment. Rogean had to do it manually. An agreement that requires the staff to do a ton of technical things, before velious drops, is not something attainable. You need to concentrate on solutions that can be implemented now.

[Splorf22]

BDA has killed gore on a few occasions, and had a hand in some VP kills as well. If they can demonstrate that now, I would consider them an "elite" guild.

Being an "elite" guild on this server has nothing to do with your ability to kill mobs. By your definition The A-Team would be an "elite" guild; I'm sure we could kill Gorenaire if we could be bothered to all get resist sets and had time for a clean engage during our prime playing times etc.

[Ungriim]

If you wanted the big 4 you had all the time in the world to demonstrate you want of those targets by showing up and competing for FTE. Your level of desire isn't backed up by your commitment/effort. To demand that TMO/FE/IB needs to rotate on the targets they really need with people who want to put in 1/10th of the effort is asinine at best. Getting half of 7 dragons/gods for free is beyond fair. The rest you can compete for imo.

The point is you're still trying to lockdown content that you've been killing for 3 years now. Is it REALLY that big of a deal to let some other people play the game? Button mashing VS for 72 hours is not playing a game. There is no "big 4" the mobs are all the same with 32khp and all suck.

You brag about 200 Trak kills...can't let ~10 a year go to other people?

[radditsu]

Alarti' solution is not good enough.. MAybe if it had been offered up a year ago but it has been a monopoly for too long.. Now that change is possible why settle for so little?

I would like to honestly know how BAD TMO was hurt with the suspensions and their ability to mobilize, etc etc. But we can't unless we see them raiding. Rogean wants something agreed upon before they come back. The fact that they would offer mobs at all is amazing compared to a year ago. You maybe could get some gains pressing them, but a 40-50% dropoff for raid kills for them is a big deal.

[Ravager]

Downside.. when would they repops happen? What about our euro players...
I love repops.. most fun to be had on the server. Too many repops devalues effort and items also. (not the biggest deal) but do we really want another 100 VS's before Velious? Repops won't solve everything either. The people getting 90% of the mobs would still be TMO/FE/IB and the trash would be cleaned up by the other entrenched guilds Taken/BDA/Div.

Says the guy of the guild celebrating 200 trak kills.

[Splorf22]

We've had three years of Kunark; the server is swimming in Kunark pixels. Who gives a fuck at this point?

Also the only reason TMO has cleaned up on repops is VP training. If that is out, they will look very different - especially after casual scum stock up on resist gear and get a little practice. Killing 32k dragons isn't that hard. And of course in Velious repops will be truly epic and it will take several hours to down all the content.

And there is no reason Sirken can't do a repop for our euro friends periodically.

TL;DR: CHANGE THE MECHANICS TO MAKE COMPETITION MORE FUN RATHER THAN DEMANDING THE PLAYERS COPE WITH RETARDED VARIANCE ETC ETC

[Alarti0001]

Alarti' solution is not good enough.. MAybe if it had been offered up a year ago but it has been a monopoly for too long.. Now that change is possible why settle for so little?

What guild are you in. You don't need to settle. Rogean isn't proposing that TMO/FE/IB give you everything of what you want. Did you think this was a vote?

[radditsu]

Being an "elite" guild on this server has nothing to do with your ability to kill mobs. By your definition The A-Team would be an "elite" guild; I'm sure we could kill Gorenaire if we could be bothered to all get resist sets and had time for a clean engage during our prime playing times etc.

I never said you couldn't! I just do not have any empirical data on the A-Team. I honestly do not know your member numbers or your levels or anything like that. Sorry if I offended you.

However what I have seen of BDA is that they could field that kind of force..with resists etc etc..for most of the day (until sleepy times). They have done poopsocking, racing, gore kills, vp kills, played games until they saw how "evil" they needed to be to win..and didn't do it. That's the only reason I consider them "elite" as it were on the server.

[Alarti0001]

Says the guy of the guild celebrating 200 trak kills.

I wish we had a shit load less trak kills.. cause that would mean velious is out.

[Alarti0001]

I would like to honestly know how BAD TMO was hurt with the suspensions and their ability to mobilize, etc etc. But we can't unless we see them raiding. Rogean wants something agreed upon before they come back. The fact that they would offer mobs at all is amazing compared to a year ago. You maybe could get some gains pressing them, but a 40-50% dropoff for raid kills for them is a big deal.

Hurt?.... haha guild is much more fired up than normal.

[Derubael]

And there is no reason Sirken can't do a repop for our euro friends periodically.


Actually, there is. But I won't go into detail here.

Staff isn't against repops, just need a solid way to implement it.

It also doesn't really solve the problem. We can't repop every week. If we were going to do that, we'd just cut all the respawn timers in half.

[Alarti0001]

The point is you're still trying to lockdown content that you've been killing for 3 years now. Is it REALLY that big of a deal to let some other people play the game? Button mashing VS for 72 hours is not playing a game. There is no "big 4" the mobs are all the same with 32khp and all suck.

You brag about 200 Trak kills...can't let ~10 a year go to other people?

Its not locked down. Trak can be killed with a few numbers and some resist gear. VS can be killed by what 8-10 ppl max? Nothing is stopping anyone from competing. FTE is FTE. It has never been easier for a guild to get a kill.

[radditsu]

Hurt?.... haha guild is much more fired up than normal.

I meant resources not pride!

[Alarti0001]

I meant resources not pride!

Resources unaffected :) Also, if you are new here Motivation is the single most valuable resource to a raid guild anyways.

[lazcar]

I am not currently guilded, which means that I am not biased in any direction. I have played Eq from the beginning and played on the last round of progressions until pop. The raiding on this server is far more nasty then anywhere I have seen before.

[Splorf22]

Actually, there is. But I won't go into detail here.

Staff isn't against repops, just need a solid way to implement it.

Why can you not do exactly what Rogean did last sunday? It worked fine and involved 10 seconds of commands.

If we were going to do that, we'd just cut all the respawn timers in half.

The primary effect of repops is not to have more mobs pop; its to spread players out and reduce the need for tracking/batphoning/camping alts etc. Not that I don't think a few more raid mobs for our top-heavy player base is a bad idea, but thats not the primary effect.

[Ungriim]

Its not locked down. Trak can be killed with a few numbers and some resist gear. VS can be killed by what 8-10 ppl max? Nothing is stopping anyone from competing. FTE is FTE. It has never been easier for a guild to get a kill.

So - killing trak now, where 2 guilds camp out 50 toons each on the ledge - is easier than killing him 2 years ago, when people used to CoTH the entire raid force down?

I believe you're missing the point of Rogean's front page, bolded post.

EDIT- Not to mention GEARED players are the ones that can kill him with 8-10. We didnt step off the boat in kunark and start killing VS with 8-10....

[Heebo]

Add an npc that sells epic weapons for 0pp like on EZ server. All problems solved.

[sanforce]

The problem with a lot of these is keeping track of everything. First of the month Naggy/Vox/Sev/Tal/Gor/Fay (what else am I missing in here?) would be easy to leave alone and let the other guilds divvy them up as they see fit. The GMs could even trigger each of these at the start of a new month, so everyone knows that they are up. 24 hours should be plenty of time to down these, but more time can be granted if needed. In conjunction with a randomized simulated repops every 1 or 2 weeks would guarantee kills get spread around.

Higher end guilds could even help out on the first of the month kills, to share strategy or help down the target if the rotating guild is struggling.

I don't really see the epic argument holding too much ground. People are being denied epics right now, but I thinks epics should be difficult to obtain and velious clears most of the target monopolization issues up.

BTW, TMO/FE/IB do not dominate every raid target. For the past few months, Taken has had Inny on lock down, which denies mages their epic quest in TMO/FE/IB. This rarely gets mentioned, but it proves that a guild can focus on certain mobs and effectively compete with the others.

[lazcar]

One raid fix- no camping out toons at spawns. Points if raid bosses, maybe aside from Mages

[radditsu]

Why can you not do exactly what Rogean did last sunday? It worked fine and involved 10 seconds of commands.


They aint rogean,

Process needs to be coded and on a randomish timer to be truely effective.

[Elements]

Again, why are people so against repops? We know Nilbog likes them. On a repop everyone can compete to their hearts content.

The current attitude of the staff is like dumping 20 people into a small room and telling them 'don't step on each others toes'.

Repops would be fantastic in Kunark and truly epic in Velious, and we just saw from Rogean that they can be accomplished in like 2 minutes of commands.

So what is the fucking downside?

Don't thnk anyone is against them but the server staff keep telling us to hash out some form of compromise. Asking them to solve problems for us is NOT what they asked us to do. If they want to throw in server repops on top of any agreement we come to its a bonus.

[Fazlazen]

You guys are counting out Taken without even giving them a chance. It also makes the barrier of entry on every 'casual scum' kill much, much less difficult. Would BDA take most of the 'casual scum' kills? MAYBE at first. but at least people looking to enter and get kills would be on a closer mobilization/numbers/organization level to their competition.

by the logic you guys are using, BDA is just going to get all the 'casual' targets in alartis proposal anyway, right?

A rotation system does not take into account the relative effort people put in. Yes, Tmo would be happy to share targets with FE/IB, but I don't think it is fair to tmo or FE/Ib that any third party get 33%, and yes I do think BDA would get the majority of that 3 way rotation.

There is no reason why we couldn't have tmo and FE/IB to give up entirely on some dragons, while allowing the casual scum a chance at more highly sought after mobs, every once in a while (thinking VS, Trak, CT, etc) no more than 20% of the time, which gives FE/IB and tmo or really any other guild the chance to hit those targets the remaining 80% of the time.

Also, to alleviate stress on GMs, there could be a created guild council in which the top guilds could bring up any raid disputes for mediation before bringing it up to GMs.

[Ravager]

BTW, TMO/FE/IB do not dominate every raid target. For the past few months, Taken has has Inny on lock down, which denies mages their epic quest in TMO/FE/IB. This rarely gets mentioned, but it proves that a guild can focus on certain mobs and effectively compete with the others.

By sitting on the spawn with their mains. They don't have the luxury of parking a BiS alt at the zone in and wait for a batphone while they level up another alt in BiS gear. Pretty certain this isn't competition, but sadly it's what it takes for any other guild to get a raid mob in this current environment. But casuals should cry more.

[Ungriim]

There is no reason why we couldn't have tmo and FE/IB to give up entirely on some dragons, while allowing the casual scum a chance at more highly sought after mobs, every once in a while (thinking VS, Trak, CT, etc) no more than 20% of the time, which gives FE/IB and tmo or really any other guild the chance to hit those targets the remaining 80% of the time.

This is pretty much what I'm proposing - If you raid all the time, take a fucking break once a month and let other people get some mobs. You can still have your FTE wars in VP, and it would be giving up roughly 20% of mobs to the other 700 players on the server.

[lazcar]

Or new idea: variable tiered bracket

High priority mobs: inny ct vs trak
Low priority mobs: all other dragons And Draco

Each month:
Week 1: all guilds compete, high priority worth 5 points each, low priority worth 2
Week 2: guild with most points may kill 3 high priority And 5 low priority. Guild with second May kill at most 2 and 4
Week 3: top guild 2 high and 3 low, second guild 1 high and 2 low
Week 4: top 1/2, second 1/2... Neither guild may kill a target they have killed more than once this month


This would set a cap on the mobs killed while also keeping competition to get the best seeds.

[Splorf22]

Don't thnk anyone is against them but the server staff keep telling us to hash out some form of compromise. Asking them to solve problems for us is NOT what they asked us to do. If they want to throw in server repops on top of any agreement we come to its a bonus.

The staff seem to have the attitude of 'oh we built this awesome playground and you retards are shitting on it'.

It just is not true IMO. This shit all started the second variance was introduced. Wanna know why the raid scene is so fucking cutthroat? If I just spent 48 hours watching my computer screen for a mob to pop I damn sure don't want anyone else getting it. Wanna know why we have zerg guilds? Cause you have to mobilize 24/7 and you need those euros. Wanna know why they bitch about carebears? Cause when you have that zerg guild you utterly facerape the content and its zero challenge to you. If the staff wants to know who created the current raid scene, they only need to look in the mirror.

Solution: CHANGE THE MECHANICS

Repops
Reduce/Remove variance
Ban poopsocking or camping out of raid forces at targets (preferrably through some mechanism in the code that automatically kicks people)
Reduce the number alts people have somehow


Once your playground is in order, then you can ask the players to be nice.

[sanforce]

Also, to alleviate stress on GMs, there could be a created guild council in which the top guilds could bring up any raid disputes for mediation before bringing it up to GMs.

This is a great idea. Guilds should have a mediation point prior to petitions. Every guild should be represented in this mediation method, because at some point every guild that tackles 50+ content will have a grievance. If one guild clearly jumps out of line, maybe they can bow out from the engage prior to needing GM interference.

By sitting on the spawn with their mains. They don't have the luxury of parking a BiS alt at the zone in and wait for a batphone while they level up another alt in BiS gear. Pretty certain this isn't competition, but sadly it's what it takes for any other guild to get a raid mob in this current environment. But casuals should cry more.

I have a single raid character, so I also camp my not-BiS main at raid targets to help my guild compete. Taken getting numerous Inny's just shows that competition does work and should continue on many of the targets. But some guilds can't do that and still want to raid, so they should be given a shot at dragons/gods too (just not every spawn).

[Tyym]

While we are all of course interested in promoting the spirit of cooperation amongst all players on this server, as officers of a guild our first interest is of course with our guild members who have worked so hard to put us where we are. Many of you are right, when TMO returns, it is basically FE/IB fighting them for mobs. If we engage in an agreement to open up mobs to the rest of the server, We have nothing to gain and potentially loot to give up.

HOWEVER, after saying this, we are still open to discussion. We are open to keeping the 2 hours delay after a target kill. If there is an interest in going beyond that, I am sure you are going to have to convince us and the leadership of TMO why and present us with an agreement that benefits us all.

What is likely necessary is a meeting between the guilds and perhaps Deru would like to join as well. 2 Officer/GL reps from; FE, IB, TMO, BDA, Taken and Divinity.

We can facilitate it in our vent.

Morphius
Forceful Entry Officer

[Pint]

lol why not use the idea of not being able to kill a mob twice in a row but make tmo/fe/ib one entity so that they can still 'compete' with the added benefit that the winner has locked the loser out for the following spawn as well. then the remaining guilds can work out a no consecutive kills policy on the follow up spawn. i know i dint belong in this discussion but the idea amused me enough to post it.

[Ungriim]

Or new idea: variable tiered bracket

High priority mobs: inny ct vs trak
Low priority mobs: all other dragons And Draco

Each month:
Week 1: all guilds compete, high priority worth 5 points each, low priority worth 2
Week 2: guild with most points may kill 3 high priority And 5 low priority. Guild with second May kill at most 2 and 4
Week 3: top guild 2 high and 3 low, second guild 1 high and 2 low
Week 4: top 1/2, second 1/2... Neither guild may kill a target they have killed more than once this month


This would set a cap on the mobs killed while also keeping competition to get the best seeds.

While I understand what you're getting at here, I feel like it would be increadibly difficult to monitor/implement

[Elements]

The staff seem to have the attitude of 'oh we built this awesome playground and you retards are shitting on it'.

It just is not true IMO. This shit all started the second variance was introduced. Wanna know why the raid scene is so fucking cutthroat? If I just spent 48 hours watching my computer screen for a mob to pop I damn sure don't want anyone else getting it. Wanna know why we have zerg guilds? Cause you have to mobilize 24/7 and you need those euros. Wanna know why they bitch about carebears? Cause when you have that zerg guild you utterly facerape the content and its zero challenge to you. If the staff wants to know who created the current raid scene, they only need to look in the mirror.

Solution: CHANGE THE MECHANICS

Repops
Reduce/Remove variance
Ban poopsocking or camping out of raid forces at targets (preferrably through some mechanism in the code that automatically kicks people)
Reduce the number alts people have somehow


Once your playground is in order, then you can ask the players to be nice.

The discussion being had here is to directly address the commands issued by rogean to come to a compromise. Demanding he solve the issue will get us no where. Server repops welcomed.

[sanforce]

Or new idea: variable tiered bracket

High priority mobs: inny ct vs trak
Low priority mobs: all other dragons And Draco

Each month:
Week 1: all guilds compete, high priority worth 5 points each, low priority worth 2
Week 2: guild with most points may kill 3 high priority And 5 low priority. Guild with second May kill at most 2 and 4
Week 3: top guild 2 high and 3 low, second guild 1 high and 2 low
Week 4: top 1/2, second 1/2... Neither guild may kill a target they have killed more than once this month


This would set a cap on the mobs killed while also keeping competition to get the best seeds.

I don't think any guild should just be handed a high priority target. Multiple raid guilds running out of points would effectively be handing the next most uber guild the target. In the end, we'd see TMO/FE/IB taking the early month targets and BDA/Taken getting the later in the month targets. It doesn't open the raid scene up for future contenders and would quickly grow stale again. High priority should be competition only mobs, low priority should have periods of no pressure from raid guilds.

[lazcar]

I don't think any guild should just be handed a high priority target. Multiple raid guilds running out of points would effectively be handing the next most uber guild the target. In the end, we'd see TMO/FE/IB taking the early month targets and BDA/Taken getting the later in the month targets. It doesn't open the raid scene up for future contenders and would quickly grow stale again. High priority should be competition only mobs, low priority should have periods of no pressure from raid guilds.

It is not handing out anything.. BDA taken and divinity will all be racing for targets.. Also vs/trak could be killed by the 2 top guilds every cycle . Week 4 would be the losing guild racing the rest of server for vs or trak

[Tyym]

I have an idea, that would fix all this. OPEN VELIOUS

Morphius

[Fianna]

I just want to say:

Whether the final result of these talks will be a form of rotation system, simulated repops or somethng else. please do not forget Europa (not to mention Europeans in other guilds). Our officers are all on Christmas break at the moment and seem to be rather uninvoled in this whole process. I hardly see us mentioned at all in the discussions. I myself am not an officer so I just want to speak up so we aren't totally forgotten.

Europa is also a semi-casual raiding guild that wants to do big targets just like BDA, Divinity, Taken and A-team. We have a huge raiding force and can easily field 50-60 people on raids. That being said: we aren't interested in poopsocking, which is perhaps why you haven't seen us take down anything big yet.

-Leiker/Photre <Europa>

[sanforce]

I just want to say:

Whatever you decide, please do not forget Europa (not to mention Europeans in other guilds). Our officers are all on Christmas break at the moment and seem to be rather uninvoled in this whole process. I hardly see us mentioned at all in the discussions. I myself am not an officer so I just want to speak up so we aren't totally forgotten.

Europa is also a raiding guild that wants to do big targets. We have a huge raiding force, but we aren't interested in poopsocking, which is perhaps why you haven't seen us take down anything big yet.

Europa won't be forgotten !!

[Alarti0001]

alarti's proposal is good. if fe/ib would agree to it, it means you can still have competition, but lets the 'casual scum' (you guys crack me up) compete with other 'casual scum' and have lots of fun while doing it.

I think you guys all need to come to some sort of agreement on your own, but from where I'm sitting, this is a reasonable concession that looks good on paper and would probably look good in practice.

So - killing trak now, where 2 guilds camp out 50 toons each on the ledge - is easier than killing him 2 years ago, when people used to CoTH the entire raid force down?

I believe you're missing the point of Rogean's front page, bolded post.

EDIT- Not to mention GEARED players are the ones that can kill him with 8-10. We didnt step off the boat in kunark and start killing VS with 8-10....

Seems staff is missing the point too.. OR MAYBE you are misconstruing what Rogean said.

[Alarti0001]

While we are all of course interested in promoting the spirit of cooperation amongst all players on this server, as officers of a guild our first interest is of course with our guild members who have worked so hard to put us where we are. Many of you are right, when TMO returns, it is basically FE/IB fighting them for mobs. If we engage in an agreement to open up mobs to the rest of the server, We have nothing to gain and potentially loot to give up.

HOWEVER, after saying this, we are still open to discussion. We are open to keeping the 2 hours delay after a target kill. If there is an interest in going beyond that, I am sure you are going to have to convince us and the leadership of TMO why and present us with an agreement that benefits us all.

What is likely necessary is a meeting between the guilds and perhaps Deru would like to join as well. 2 Officer/GL reps from; FE, IB, TMO, BDA, Taken and Divinity.

We can facilitate it in our vent.

Morphius
Forceful Entry Officer

I don't speak for TMO but I can pretty much say the 2hour rule wont fly. Its a gimmick and everyone sees through it. Likely Zagum will be talking with your leadership within the next couple days to hash out something.

[Alarti0001]

I have an idea, that would fix all this. OPEN VELIOUS

Morphius

Yep. Or open the serve to allow more devs to help out. Stranglehold on development atm.

[Ahldagor]

I have a simple solution. Lets have FE/IB/TMO agree to no poopsocking, no delayed engages, and to leave up 4 dracos, and 2 naggy/vox/tal/sev/gore/fay/inny in an 8/4 cycle. (50%)

CT/Trak/VP always complete, and the draco that pops with CT always compete.

It keeps the good ones in a competitive arena. Casual guilds will get a 400% increase in targets.

Whats not to love.


this reminds me of the english premier league set up. seriously should try this out becuase it'll probably work.

The staff seem to have the attitude of 'oh we built this awesome playground and you retards are shitting on it'.

Once your playground is in order, then you can ask the players to be nice.

they can ask the players in the playground to be nice because it's their playground to begin with you discourteous buttocks.

[Ungriim]

Raid Scene
...
Starting today and then evaluated when Velious is released the CSR staff will be keeping track of how the raid guilds are treating eachother. If we do not see a significant improvement in the behavior of the raiding guilds and how they treat eachother, Velious will be released without raid content. To be clear, we want an enjoyable raid scene for everyone, not just one or two guilds. This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.


I must be totally reading this wrong....

[Byrjun]

It just is not true IMO. This shit all started the second variance was introduced.

To be fair, it started when DA began poopsocking every raid target on the server to avoid competing, and then it became the war of which guild could sit at raid targets for the most days straight.

Variance was introduced to combat this, and while variance really fucking sucks at least it was something to combat guilds arguing about which one sat in Nagafen's room the longest after killing it.

[mefdinkins]

?

[Ravager]

Loraen your anti-variance crusade is both righteous and amusing. Occasional repops can be good, but would ultimately be time biased. There is no point to having repops until the ability to camp inside of raid zones is removed.

Should just make it so that if you log in after camping out in a raid zone, it treats you as if you've just been rezzed. Would give a huge disadvantage to parking toons.

[quido]

I personally am more interested in seeing guilds like Europa, Azure Guard, other smaller/newer/off-hours guilds get attempts at killing mobs than I am in seeing that BDA and/or Taken get regular kills.

[Ravager]

I personally am more interested in seeing guilds like Europa, Azure Guard, other smaller/newer/off-hours guilds get attempts at killing mobs than I am in seeing that BDA and/or Taken get regular kills.

I can assure you, BDA feels this way about TMO.

[Splorf22]

Loraen your anti-variance crusade is both righteous and amusing. Occasional repops can be good, but would ultimately be time biased. There is no point to having repops until the ability to camp inside of raid zones is removed.

Heheheh you should read Slave's posts :D

But yes, I think we need to do something about all the alts. Here is one random suggestion: Count the number of 55+ characters logged into by each IP, and dock them some XP. Say 1 xp death for each toon over one. So:

Yendor: one toon, no change
Loraen/Sakuragi: two toons, each eat one XP death (15%)
Jeremy/Bruce/Gangstalicious: three toons, each eats two XP deaths (30%)


Voila, if you wanna keep a raid force logged out at targets you get to pay the price. If you want to have multiple alts, that's no problem at all: just pick which one you want to play one week and rotate them.

[Ungriim]

Should just make it so that if you log in after camping out in a raid zone, it treats you as if you've just been rezzed. Would give a huge disadvantage to parking toons.

I like this idea but I fear it would be too easily cheese'd / disruptive to the zone

[Ungriim]

Heheheh you should read Slave's posts :D

But yes, I think we need to do something about all the alts. Here is one random suggestion: Count the number of 55+ characters logged into by each IP, and dock them some XP. Say 1 xp death for each toon over one. So:

Yendor: one toon, no change
Loraen/Sakuragi: two toons, each eat one XP death (15%)
Jeremy/Bruce/Gangstalicious: three toons, each eats two XP deaths (30%)


Voila, if you wanna keep a raid force logged out at targets you get to pay the price.

If you want to have multiple alts, that's no problem at all: just pick which one you want to play one week and rotate them.

Poor Snackromancer!

[Ungriim]

I don't see what the big deal would be for non-raiders to not camp out in Seb or KC. I'm sure there would be some cross-fire, but it would be minimal

Cheating it would be too easy to the point of it not serving a real purpose. Just log next zone over and rush - delays the engage by a minute or 2 but still goes to the same guilds more than likely

[Splorf22]

Hehehe there are a few people on the server whose habits would dramatically change. And I do love Snackies.

But I don't think anyone can't say that such a rule would not really help things. It would give people an incentive not to gear up their 4th alts, and it might reduce the alt armies camped at targets, although maybe people would just level around it given the overall level of dedication here.

[Ravager]

Cheating it would be too easy to the point of it not serving a real purpose. Just log next zone over and rush - delays the engage by a minute or 2 but still goes to the same guilds more than likely

I don't know, it'd make Trak and VS both a real race, what with Gore in DL. CT would be interesting once the DT cycles go off and people can't camp them off without crippling their raid force, there's definite potential for interference there.

Just spitballing. Could limit the rez effects to anyone camped out that's 58+ to minimize disruption to people exping in the zone, maybe 50+ for Naggy and Vox. The idea probably doesn't have legs though, seeing as how unclassic it is and how much it would impose on the devs to implement it.

[Ungriim]

Sarius we used to do Trak with full raid force COTH races back in the day before ledge camping. VS is easy to train down and then just AE stun/mez the train, we used to do it with bards when bard song was broken - before the rule to kill VS in room, but same idea.

Inny is exactly the same as normal - Taken camps out there now but normally its a FTE race to pull to zone in.

CT would be hilarious, I didnt think about camping out for the DT cycles

Any outdoor dragon it would do nothing to. Bard still sits on spawn and eye pulls/selo's with 20% life np, rest of raid force zones over

[YendorLootmonkey]

Should just make it so that if you log in after camping out in a raid zone, it treats you as if you've just been rezzed. Would give a huge disadvantage to parking toons.

Add "if a raid mob is indeed up" to that, perhaps.

[Derubael]

Also, to alleviate stress on GMs, there could be a created guild council in which the top guilds could bring up any raid disputes for mediation before bringing it up to GMs.

stop making sense, sentenza. it's ruining your rep with the staff.

[Mezzmur]

stop making sense, sentenza. it's ruining your rep with the staff.

IMO, all staff should be given the same toon with same stats/gear/etc. PVP-off and winner becomes new lead GM. We can have this happen every 3 months to keep things spicy.

[Ungriim]

Mage used to pop an eye thru wall to zone in to invite people...just track with the mage so that hes FM when trak pops? Also the path to trak is 11 mobs to water, 5 in jail, invis to juggs, monk move juggs? Not hard to coordinate. First people in kill the mobs up until water, jail may or may not have SI, myconids prolly wont have a SI, maybe have to move 2 juggs with a train which is easy...

[Mezzmur]

Mage used to pop an eye thru wall to zone in to invite people...just track with the mage so that hes FM when trak pops? Also the path to trak is 11 mobs to water, 5 in jail, invis to juggs, monk move juggs? Not hard to coordinate. First people in kill the mobs up until water, jail may or may not have SI, myconids prolly wont have a SI, maybe have to move 2 juggs with a train which is easy...

Eye popping is a suspendable offense.

[Ungriim]

Oh they changed that? Didnt know

[Ravager]

Here's another stupid non-classic idea that would take more programming and less players figuring things out: Actually make it a race. Raid mobs are invulnerable, indifferent and don't interact with players unless they logged in in Ocean of Tears.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I personally am more interested in seeing guilds like Europa, Azure Guard, other smaller/newer/off-hours guilds get attempts at killing mobs than I am in seeing that BDA and/or Taken get regular kills.

Yes, Jeremy, we know TMO has an interest in seeing their distant competition get kills/gear over the guilds that are directly behind TMO/FE/IB in terms of competition. :)

[Argh]

Rotations =/= fun.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[quido]

Yes, Jeremy, we know TMO has an interest in seeing their distant competition get kills/gear over the guilds that are directly behind TMO/FE/IB in terms of competition. :)

I don't consider BDA and Taken competition in the least. They are simply guilds that have killed this stuff a bunch of times, and the others are guilds that haven't.

[Ravager]

I don't consider BDA and Taken competition in the least. They are simply guilds that have killed this stuff a bunch of times, and the others are guilds that haven't.

So according to TMO, BDA has killed these raid mobs too many times...

[quido]

According to me, you've killed a lot of this stuff a bunch of times. Stop being dumb.

[Lammy]

Maybe Nilbog can program instances for everyone also

[Ravager]

According to me, you've killed a lot of this stuff a bunch of times. Stop being dumb.

And according to me, you killed a lot of this stuff a bunch more times, and even more stuff we've never touched. You stop being dumb.

[Ahldagor]

So according to TMO, BDA has killed these raid mobs too many times...



funny that pride and greed could bring down raiding in velious to nil when that's what everyone bashed/es tmo for

[Alarti0001]

And according to me, you killed a lot of this stuff a bunch more times, and even more stuff we've never touched. You stop being dumb.

How does that affect Azure Guard/Doljon/Knights who say ni tho>?

Stop being dumb.

[quido]

And according to me, you killed a lot of this stuff a bunch more times, and even more stuff we've never touched. You stop being dumb.

Your implication is that I don't think BDA should get anything. I never said this, nor do I think it. BDA got kills pretty regularly even before all these changes.

I am simply saying that out of some of what we are giving up, I'd like it more if actual new/small guilds got shots at these before BDA. You won't see me willing to forgo Innoruuk as often if BDA and Taken are killing it every time instead of giving Azure Guard or Europa a chance.

You're too quick to assume.

[Autotune]

Maybe Nilbog can program instances for everyone also

Rogean ripped out instances, stop bringing it up.

[Ungriim]

Would like to see some of these bickering people add their suggestions rather than insults

[Ahldagor]

Would like to see some of these bickering people add their suggestions rather than insults

the thread started pretty decent though. now it's dissolved into some congealed mass of assumptions

[baramur]

There is simple things you will not change. Alarti i have heard you time and time again agree that poopsocking is evil, yet you fail to mention that was TMO that caused poopsocking to be used. You can say you did not start it, but if that what guilds had to do to win a mob against tmo monopoly, because tmo refused to let others enjoy killing targets, then you TMO is responsible. All this could have been avoided by TMO simply sharing a few mobs here and there, or saying hey server we are gonna take 1 week a month break, enjoy, but you did not, you said "Hey server, fuck all you guys, if you want epics, reach into your banks. Pay us, because you all suck, and we are gods of eq." Personally i would love to see it where TMO was raid banned until velious, considering you have monopolized your share of loot for the last 3 years, and then turned and talked shit about everyone while doing it. But, in the spirit of christmas, i will actually give you all the benefit of the doubt. Now then why are we making things so tough. Why not take the 2 best ideas we have and implement them together with a few minor tweeks.

First off 2 hour no touch limit is way to long, i believe in sharing, but i also believe people should have to work for loot, not just be handed opportunities. After all only guild to be handed mobs was TMO's vp rotation. That said. 1Hour is sufficient. This MAKES guilds track for the mobs they want. This gives guilds time to log on and prepare and have a real engage. If you cant mobilize for vs or trak in 30min, then you shouldnt be allowed to a chance to kill them without competition. Now this said, wouldn't this mean it would simply go TMO, IB, TMO, IB,,,,,Yep prolly. And i think IB, FE, other guild is to easy, i was thinking this.

HERE IS MY SUGGESTION.

If IB/FE and TMO combine to kill 4 targets in a row, both guilds will agree not to engage the 5th spawn for a time of no less then 6 hours.

IB/FE and TMO agree that the first week of each month they will not engage TAL/GORE/FAY/SEV/NAGGY/VOX/DRACO/INNY/Maestro

ALL GUILDS AGREE to Not engaging a mob within 1 Hour of its spawn, if they killed its last spawn. If said guild has killed last 2 spawns they Agree not to engage 3rd spawn for 6 hours.

Trak/VS/CT Will be open competition, except, these mobs will have a 15 minute engage timer if prior kill, and if FE/IB and TMO combine to kill mob 4 times in a row, they will Agree to neither engage mob for 6 hours. 15 min still forces competition.

VP will remain FTE and open for further discussion later on down the road.

[Layne]

Raiding guilds should just turn in books of discord and Duke it out for mobs blue would make a hell of a lot better red than red.

[Autotune]

GMs should just spawn targets for the non-raid guilds and ban any raid guild that tries to kill them. However, no one should know what is a GM spawn and is a normal server spawn.

Problem solved.

[Troubled]

I have a simple solution. Lets have FE/IB/TMO agree to no poopsocking, no delayed engages, and to leave up 4 dracos, and 2 naggy/vox/tal/sev/gore/fay/inny in an 8/4 cycle. (50%)

CT/Trak/VP always complete, and the draco that pops with CT always compete.

So for one, define no poopsocking. Does that mean no camping chars, no stall team sitting around, or no force sitting around(just a tracker?) I think, personally, no stall team or force sitting around is good and camping chars for Trak/CT/VS is acceptable, but a force inside VP should be racing from the zone in and not camping out inside lairs.

For this proposed pseudo-rotation:

Besides CT(& Draco CT), Trak, VS, & VP, blanket agreement for no guild to take more than 1 out of 4 spawns? For most mobs, FE/IB & TMO would easily reach their 50%, but that opens it up for another guild to take the other 50%, such as Taken/Taken on 2 inny spawns or BDA/BDA on 2 Vox spawns. Let's just make it 1 out of 4 for any guild?

Speaking for myself, and not my zerg, I would like to see VS added to the lesser mob list, but other than that I think we have something to work with here. Nice thought, Alarti.

[baramur]

HERE IS MY SUGGESTION.

If IB/FE and TMO combine to kill a mob 4 times in a row, both guilds will agree not to engage the 5th spawn for a time of no less then 6 hours.

IB/FE and TMO agree that the first week of each month they will not engage TAL/GORE/FAY/SEV/NAGGY/VOX/DRACO/INNY/Maestro

ALL GUILDS AGREE to Not engaging a mob within 1 Hour of its spawn, if they killed its last spawn. If said guild has killed last 2 spawns they Agree not to engage 3rd spawn for 6 hours.

Trak/VS/CT Will be open competition, except, these mobs will have a 15 minute engage timer if prior kill, and if FE/IB and TMO combine to kill mob 4 times in a row, they will Agree to neither engage mob for 6 hours. 15 min still forces competition.

VP will remain FTE and open for further discussion later on down the road.

[Autotune]

How about first in force, no leapfrogging?

define first.
define force.
define leapfrogging.

[quido]

I am holding back from sharing my vision of p99 raiding until everyone has had a little more time to mull over all the suggestions and ideas. There has been some great input from people, but more time is needed for people to confer with their respective parties (especially during these holidays) and hopefully each respective faction can come up with a list of possibilities that they are able to live with.

Here are some of the important points for me:
- Competition on the high-demand targets remains at least most of the time
- The rules don't essentially implement a rotation on any target
- Tier 3 guilds receive the benefits of these concessions as much as or more than Tier 2 guilds
- The system is one that can be managed with civility and won't necessitate constant disputes, requirements of proof, and other annoying crap

[Alarti0001]

There is simple things you will not change. Alarti i have heard you time and time again agree that poopsocking is evil, yet you fail to mention that was TMO that caused poopsocking to be used. You can say you did not start it, but if that what guilds had to do to win a mob against tmo monopoly, because tmo refused to let others enjoy killing targets, then you TMO is responsible. All this could have been avoided by TMO simply sharing a few mobs here and there, or saying hey server we are gonna take 1 week a month break, enjoy, but you did not, you said "Hey server, fuck all you guys, if you want epics, reach into your banks. Pay us, because you all suck, and we are gods of eq." Personally i would love to see it where TMO was raid banned until velious, considering you have monopolized your share of loot for the last 3 years, and then turned and talked shit about everyone while doing it. But, in the spirit of christmas, i will actually give you all the benefit of the doubt. Now then why are we making things so tough.




Nope TMO didn't start poopsocking. Poopsocking was prevalent here long before TMO was even a guild on p99.
Also, who defines who gets what share of loot>? Terrible troll.

[Alarti0001]

First = the first guild
Force = the quantity necessary as deemed by the server/guild summit/ whatever
Leapfrogging = if there is a guild first in force ready to engage at the spawn point, another guild will not attempt FTE snipe or any of that BS

Good definitions. Good defined as terrible

[Ungriim]

How would you modify what I have so far to help the tier 3 guilds out more? I feel like at some point a BDA or Taken or Europa guild may step up and get enough dragons to bump them off the list to allow for even more people to get a shot at dragons that first week off that we would have...maybe not?

I feel like I've covered 1 and 2 fairly well. If guilds agree on anything #4 will come with it - I would add to point 4 that we probably want to be self-governing so that we stop bothering the GMs as well

[Alarti0001]

How would you modify what I have so far to help the tier 3 guilds out more? I feel like at some point a BDA or Taken or Europa guild may step up and get enough dragons to bump them off the list to allow for even more people to get a shot at dragons that first week off that we would have...maybe not?

I feel like I've covered 1 and 2 fairly well. If guilds agree on anything #4 will come with it - I would add to point 4 that we probably want to be self-governing so that we stop bothering the GMs as well

I would modify your plan to be my plan.

[Autotune]

First = the first guild
Force = the quantity necessary as deemed by the server/guild summit/ whatever
Leapfrogging = if there is a guild first in force ready to engage at the spawn point, another guild will not attempt FTE snipe or any of that BS

So, basically what guild can log in the most people the fastest on any given target.


This doesn't solve anything but FTE disputes and maybe accidental trains.

[Troubled]

I am holding back from sharing my vision of p99 raiding until everyone has had a little more time to mull over all the suggestions and ideas. There has been some great input from people, but more time is needed for people to confer with their respective parties (especially during these holidays) and hopefully each respective faction can come up with a list of possibilities that they are able to live with.

Here are some of the important points for me:
- Competition on the high-demand targets remains at least most of the time
- The rules don't essentially implement a rotation on any target
- Tier 3 guilds receive the benefits of these concessions as much as or more than Tier 2 guilds
- The system is one that can be managed with civility and won't necessitate constant disputes, requirements of proof, and other annoying crap

Honestly I like most of what Alarti suggested, albeit needing a tweak or 2 in my eyes. If variance besides +-4 hrs was eliminated, even 3rd tier guilds could plan a strike for any mob of their choosing, and 2nd tier guilds could choose to step up their game as well. Without so much variance, you would see more Europa/AG/Div stepping up to track mobs knowing the time sink isn't nearly as severe as it is now. 2nd tier guilds would move up to higher targets, knowing the race that TMO loves so much is on. The variance could remain in VP for those that want to be so hardcore.

[YendorLootmonkey]

First = the first guild
Force = the quantity necessary as deemed by the server/guild summit/ whatever
Leapfrogging = if there is a guild first in force ready to engage at the spawn point, another guild will not attempt FTE snipe or any of that BS

And this is what poopsocking evolved from.

[Alarti0001]

Not at all. If a guild chooses to "sock" a target with enough people (say 20+) then other guilds will not try to assemble a competing raid force and jump them. Maybe another guild would bring in a force when the mob spawns or is about to spawn and hope for a wipe, but it would get rid of FTE wars.

Your suggestion is what created variance in the first place. Lets not repeat past mistakes just cause you are "newer".

[radditsu]

define first.
define force.
define leapfrogging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0

[Troubled]

There wouldn't be a need for variance if guilds would respect first in force. Hate would not be bustling with 200 people if guild A was already there, waiting, with a sufficient raid force.

FiF rule turns into poopsocking for days to be the first in force. Solves nothing, causes variance.

[Autotune]

The solution needs to be simple to understand, easily managed by guilds, open enough that no guild is pigeon-holed into which target/s they can/can't compete for weekly, and it needs to keep the spirit of competition.

The only way I can see it happen is to have overlapping competition tiers by instituting a point system. Otherwise people are just going to have systems set up that end up being a rotation.

With a limited amount of points and variance the way it is, raid guilds have to decide if they want to risk killing an early spawn for loot (and lose the points) or hold out for a more desirable high value raid target and risk having points wasted for the week (another guild kills the target instead of yours).

Doesn't mean it's the only way, but most everything I have seen limits certain targets to guilds or is a rotation of raid guilds and non raid guilds.

[Autotune]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0

We all know on p99 when it comes to raiding that you have to have solid definitions or it's going to be interpreted different by each guild.

[Ravager]

Here's a troll suggestion: drop the level cap back to 50. Then everyone will be forced to work together.

[Alarti0001]

Honestly with the amount of targets in Velious and their difficulty and the number of people required, I think it be worth a shot

This plan is for Kunark.

[quido]

2. The 2 hour window stall remains in effect.
Outside of VP - whoever kills a Kunark or Classic Dragon will be required to wait 2 hours before making an attempt the next time the dragon pops.

This two-hour thing is simply not going to work once TMO is back in the raid scene. This is what I was referring to in saying that I don't want anything to essentially be a rotation. I personally like the "combined TMO/FE/IB are only allowed to kill so many of a particular target consecutively" rule that someone suggested recently.

3. Forced raid breaks for high-kill guilds

Explaination: If you look at whokilledit.com, there are 2 dragons on 3 day (~8 kills a month) and 9 dragons on 7 day (~36 kills a month) for a total of roughly 44 dragon kills per month. Lets take that at a 25% rate. 11 dragons a month. ANY guild that kills more than 11 dragons a month is forced to take a raid break from Classic/Kunark dragons for the first week of the following month.

This is a little screwy too. I don't want to be penalized for significantly outperforming another competitive guild. Having a dominant month result in a forced week off while those who were dominated basically get free attempts is kind of bunk.

I think you'll have more luck with "1 out of X of every [target] is off-limits to anyone that has killed it before, for Y hours."

The "anyone that has killed it before" clause is what accounts for Tier 3 guilds. If it wasn't clear, I am against defaulting too much to BDA and Taken who already get a respectable number of kills. This rule could be further tweaked to account for guilds that killed something once and later are looking to get another unobstructed attempt, or third, fourth, fifth - whatever the provisions allow.

About a year ago I advocated having 1 out of 4 or 5 mobs be available for attempts by guilds that haven't killed it before. The idea was squashed by FE as they still needed gear for their members.

I really would like to see more people have the opportunity to step into the raiding world on p99. That barrier to entry lies at the Tier 3 guild level - a level where people likely need every possible player they can muster, plenty of time to prepare and get everything right, and possibly a second or third attempt.

[quido]

Furthermore I am in favor of reducing variance by at least half with any changes.

[Troubled]

Repost.

For this proposed pseudo-rotation:

Besides CT(& Draco CT), Trak, VS, & VP, blanket agreement for no guild to take more than 1 out of 4 spawns? For most mobs, FE/IB & TMO would easily reach their 50%, but that opens it up for another guild to take the other 50%, such as Taken/Taken on 2 inny spawns or BDA/BDA on 2 Vox spawns. Let's just make it 1 out of 4 for any guild?

Speaking for myself, and not my zerg, I would like to see VS added to the lesser mob list, but other than that I think we have something to work with here. Nice thought, Alarti.


If variance were removed (besides a needed +-4 hrs to appease all hours players) for mobs outside VP, that would go a long way to promoting competition between all "tier" guilds, knowing their timesink wouldn't be near as severe for camping out/tracking, while promoting racing/competition for tier1 non-VP targets.

[quido]

I support such a course of action, though I don't think it should be a perfect mirror image of what I describe - something like half of the outdoor dragons/etc.

[quido]

Where did I say that BDA shouldn't get some of the concessions?

[Autotune]

BDA shouldn't get some of the concessions

[YendorLootmonkey]

I liked the system where each guild had X amount of "raid points" per week or month, and raid targets were worth varying amount of points based on value/demand. It added another element of strategy to it (i.e. does a guild burn up their quota early in the month and then become non-competitive towards the end of the month, or do they save their quota in order to maintain competitiveness later in the month after other guilds may have used up their quota at the risk of missing out on mobs for the entire month?)

There's still competition, allows guilds to focus on encounters they might need, and it's not a rotation. It does prevent monopolization if the raid target values and quotas are set correctly. Guilds still have to track and put effort in. Could create a situation where Trak spawns at the end of the month and none of the usual guilds have an available quota to go after it so one of "the new guilds" gets a shot.

I think this was Stealin's idea? Or Xasten's?

One potential issue could be individuals floating between guilds or creating backup guilds so they would have "reserve points." Also, not sure how to consider joint raids... assuming both guilds get the points applied against them.

[Ungriim]

This two-hour thing is simply not going to work once TMO is back in the raid scene. This is what I was referring to in saying that I don't want anything to essentially be a rotation. I personally like the "combined TMO/FE/IB are only allowed to kill so many of a particular target consecutively" rule that someone suggested recently.



This is a little screwy too. I don't want to be penalized for significantly outperforming another competitive guild. Having a dominant month result in a forced week off while those who were dominated basically get free attempts is kind of bunk.

I think you'll have more luck with "1 out of X of every [target] is off-limits to anyone that has killed it before, for Y hours."

The "anyone that has killed it before" clause is what accounts for Tier 3 guilds. If it wasn't clear, I am against defaulting too much to BDA and Taken who already get a respectable number of kills. This rule could be further tweaked to account for guilds that killed something once and later are looking to get another unobstructed attempt, or third, fourth, fifth - whatever the provisions allow.

About a year ago I advocated having 1 out of 4 or 5 mobs be available for attempts by guilds that haven't killed it before. The idea was squashed by FE as they still needed gear for their members.

I really would like to see more people have the opportunity to step into the raiding world on p99. That barrier to entry lies at the Tier 3 guild level - a level where people likely need every possible player they can muster, plenty of time to prepare and get everything right, and possibly a second or third attempt.

I'm confused how this is different? It's still roughly 1 out of every 4 spawns which IBFE/TMO leaves alone. I think that anytime we are "picking" what gets left alone does pretty much nothing for the server. Also the first portion only implies a pseudo-rotation based on 2 guilds. FE/IB could split, BDA could step up, etc and it would be back to FTE fighting quite a bit.

Basically with my plan were not punished, we get some time to relax...it allows other people to engage with either no time limit or equal playing field wngages, and it turns PD into trak 2.0 and turns xygoz/SW into VS/CT

[Ungriim]

I also liked the DKP per dragon kill idea , but may be hard to track. I've spoken to several people about it and it is also hard to control the guild splits for more targets

[quido]

I liked the system where each guild had X amount of "raid points" per week or month, and raid targets were worth varying amount of points based on value/demand. It added another element of strategy to it (i.e. does a guild burn up their quota early in the month and then become non-competitive towards the end of the month, or do they save their quota in order to maintain competitiveness later in the month after other guilds may have used up their quota at the risk of missing out on mobs for the entire month?)

There's still competition, allows guilds to focus on encounters they might need, and it's not a rotation. It does prevent monopolization if the raid target values and quotas are set correctly. Guilds still have to track and put effort in. Could create a situation where Trak spawns at the end of the month and none of the usual guilds have an available quota to go after it so one of "the new guilds" gets a shot.

I think this was Stealin's idea? Or Xasten's?

One potential issue could be individuals floating between guilds or creating backup guilds so they would have "reserve points." Also, not sure how to consider joint raids... assuming both guilds get the points applied against them.

Too socialist.

[YendorLootmonkey]

The solution needs to be simple to understand, easily managed by guilds, open enough that no guild is pigeon-holed into which target/s they can/can't compete for weekly, and it needs to keep the spirit of competition.

The only way I can see it happen is to have overlapping competition tiers by instituting a point system. Otherwise people are just going to have systems set up that end up being a rotation.

With a limited amount of points and variance the way it is, raid guilds have to decide if they want to risk killing an early spawn for loot (and lose the points) or hold out for a more desirable high value raid target and risk having points wasted for the week (another guild kills the target instead of yours).

Doesn't mean it's the only way, but most everything I have seen limits certain targets to guilds or is a rotation of raid guilds and non raid guilds.

^^ er, yeah... this

[YendorLootmonkey]

Too socialist.

How so? There's still competition. What it prevents is one or two guilds from monopolizing everything. You still have to compete for FTE. In fact, there is even EXTRA competition in how you manage your raid points.

[Yaolin]

High Priority Targets (1 out of 3)

Trakanon (10), Cazic Thule (4), Innorruk (4), Severilous (4), Venril Sathir (4)

Can be killed by a guild one time in every 3 pop rotation. The “rotation” would be reset every three kills, so even if you killed the last one in a rotation you could still try to kill the first one in the next rotation. #1 Guild gets 40% of Trakanon kills and 50% of Severilous, CT, Innorruk, and VS kills. I.E. The last pop of the month would be up for grabs for which guilds gets 1 more than all the rest.

Low Priority Targets (1 out of 4)

Dracoliche (10), Maestro (10), Talendor (4), Gorenaire (4), Faydedar (4)

Can be killed by a guild one time in every 4 pop rotation. The “rotation” would be reset every three kills, so even if you killed the last one in a rotation you could still try to kill the first one in the next rotation. #1 and #2 Guilds gets 30% of Maestro and Draco kills and 25% of Talendor, Gorenaire, and Faydedar kills. I.E. The last pop of the month would be up for grabs.



“Rotations” are reset when a “High Priority” target has been killed three times, a “Low Priority” target has been killed four times, or a new calendar month has arrived.

This policy would do much better if variance were say halved, it would allow guilds that are not batphone to have a 100% increased chance in seeing a mob pop if they raid in that specific zone during the mobs window.

Also no one mob is ever guaranteed to a particular guild so all mobs will probably be killed in very short order. To those of us that can only play for a few hours a night during the week this would only increase our chances to actually seeing mobs up during raid windows from 5% to maybe 10% once in a while and obviously the end of each month would be the most fun.

[Fazlazen]

I'm afraid a conversation can't keep going on if either yendor or anthrax are part of it.

[criddopher]

Original post is good.....
so is the elite/casual high/low teir competition rotation. as to the rotation I would add something like if a casual guild gets 75% of the kills for the month they get raised to elite, If they get 0% of the kills they drop back to casual. That way BDA or someone doesnt turn into the TMO of casual rotation weeks. As much as I doubt that would happen.

[Alarti0001]

Repost.

For this proposed pseudo-rotation:

Besides CT(& Draco CT), Trak, VS, & VP, blanket agreement for no guild to take more than 1 out of 4 spawns? For most mobs, FE/IB & TMO would easily reach their 50%, but that opens it up for another guild to take the other 50%, such as Taken/Taken on 2 inny spawns or BDA/BDA on 2 Vox spawns. Let's just make it 1 out of 4 for any guild?

Speaking for myself, and not my zerg, I would like to see VS added to the lesser mob list, but other than that I think we have something to work with here. Nice thought, Alarti.


If variance were removed (besides a needed +-4 hrs to appease all hours players) for mobs outside VP, that would go a long way to promoting competition between all "tier" guilds, knowing their timesink wouldn't be near as severe for camping out/tracking, while promoting racing/competition for tier1 non-VP targets.


Only problem I have with VS is the exceedingly rare drops and its a 7day +/- that the tops actually need. VS went to a 3 day spawn in Velious for a reason.

[quido]

I'm confused how this is different? It's still roughly 1 out of every 4 spawns which IBFE/TMO leaves alone. I think that anytime we are "picking" what gets left alone does pretty much nothing for the server. Also the first portion only implies a pseudo-rotation based on 2 guilds. FE/IB could split, BDA could step up, etc and it would be back to FTE fighting quite a bit.

Basically with my plan were not punished, we get some time to relax...it allows other people to engage with either no time limit or equal playing field wngages, and it turns PD into trak 2.0 and turns xygoz/SW into VS/CT

What happens some month when TMO reaches the quota and FE or IB don't?

I'm advocating leaving 1 out of X alone no matter what if you've killed it - it is not dependent on a good or bad month, and it holds for all mobs. We can work out details for people who haven't repeatedly killed these mobs to get further attempts.

[Ungriim]

Here is the elephant in the room that no one is addressing.

The top guilds "compete" in a manor that they are the only ones willing to compete at.

All the other guilds hate poopsocking, training mobs around, camping out characters and leaving them until a bat phone tells them to log in like automatons, shady FTE tactics to try to wipe the other guild, tracking targets for 96 hour periods, ect.

To come up with a solution to include the rest of the server, you need to realize they won't be competiting in this manor and would rather not do what you do. A lot of people would rather not enter a zone where there is already a raid force clearing mobs. They have respect and etiquette to allow that raid force that was there first to do their thing in peace, than to jump up all in their face and "compete" for mobs. I'm pretty sure most of the guilds that aren't currently competing at the highest level, would rather rotate in some form or fashion, otherwise, all this talk is for naught. I don't see any scenario where Knights Who Say Ni gets an attempt on any dragon if they are forced to compete under current competition standards.

Read OP.

3 weeks a month we raid like its 2013

1 week a month you raid like its 2010

Top tier guilds shouldn't be forced to give up mobs to guilds that have put in pretty much 0 effort to kill any dragons imo

[Alarti0001]

OK so there is a cookie jar of mobs every week.

TMO has been taking 90% of the cookies every week for three years (TMO is very fat)

BDA got 5% of the cookies over that span.

Your new solution is to only take 80% of the cookies every week and to still limit BDA to 5% cookies so other guilds can partake in your act of divine kindness?

More like 60% of the cookies. BDA is also free to compete for that other 60%!

[Jarnauga]

First off I would like to say that this has been talked up to a few people in private - and has not been decided on yet by any guild. That being said this is what I propose, and would like feedback on it.

1. VP will remain FTE by any guild at all times.
Regardless of what goes on outside of VP, at all times VP will remain a CSR zone with no training and standard current FTE rules. Pull locations can be decided by guilds (ie zone in kills legal or not etc.)

2. The 2 hour window stall remains in effect.
Outside of VP - whoever kills a Kunark or Classic Dragon will be required to wait 2 hours before making an attempt the next time the dragon pops.

3. Forced raid breaks for high-kill guilds

Explaination: If you look at whokilledit.com, there are 2 dragons on 3 day (~8 kills a month) and 9 dragons on 7 day (~36 kills a month) for a total of roughly 44 dragon kills per month. Lets take that at a 25% rate. 11 dragons a month. ANY guild that kills more than 11 dragons a month is forced to take a raid break from Classic/Kunark dragons for the first week of the following month.

Reasoning: A lot of people are concerned that this 2 hour window thing will just create a top-2-guild-rotation and still not help the server population / nostalgia / raid scene out. I believe that this rule will either 1) Have the top guild sitting out for a week - and more than likely a couple of them sitting out, -or- 2) If they try to dodge it by killing only 11 dragons, then they will be leaving other dragons up anyways by picking and choosing.

VP: The 11 Dragon kill count WILL include VP dragon deaths, but the ruling WILL NOT suspend you from killing dragons in VP - see Rule #1.

4. Suggestion - Rogean reopens Raid Forum
Topic with each mob, guild leaders post in the topic when the mob is killed and by who. Topic to keep track of dragon tallies stickied. Allow everyone to see topics and post about possible raid alterations/solutions.





I am looking for honest opinions from different guilds and players on what you think about this scenario. I personally feel that it will allow other guilds to kill dragons, still allow higher end guilds to compete in VP, AND it will give hardcore players a break once a month from having to answer those goddamn batphones at 3am for Talendor.

Please dont 'trolololol this will never work' - be constructive.

I like this. It would please both the "roflmaozergcompetition" people and the "casual scum". Casual scum would pretty much never have to fight both FE/IB and TMO, and a lot of time just the other casual guilds. It would also ensure that the casuals that actively track and put in some work to get some targets would get it, instead of a rotation where everyone would be at the same level.

I would add 2 things:

- in case of full repop, FTE and FTE only applies. Full server repop and actually racing to a mob (and not just logging on toons camped there) is the most classic thing we will ever get in here, and it should be preserved.

- we should also agree that these rules applies to kunark and classic mobs only. Wehenever Velious hits, we should go back to a full competition/FTE like there was before, at least to see how it all goes with the new targets added. Further debates might be necessary then, we'll have to see that.

[criddopher]

.

[Alarti0001]

Here is the elephant in the room that no one is addressing.

The top guilds "compete" in a manor that they are the only ones willing to compete at.

All the other guilds hate poopsocking, training mobs around, camping out characters and leaving them until a bat phone tells them to log in like automatons, shady FTE tactics to try to wipe the other guild, tracking targets for 96 hour periods, ect.

To come up with a solution to include the rest of the server, you need to realize they won't be competiting in this manor and would rather not do what you do. A lot of people would rather not enter a zone where there is already a raid force clearing mobs. They have respect and etiquette to allow that raid force that was there first to do their thing in peace, than to jump up all in their face and "compete" for mobs. I'm pretty sure most of the guilds that aren't currently competing at the highest level, would rather rotate in some form or fashion, otherwise, all this talk is for naught. I don't see any scenario where Knights Who Say Ni gets an attempt on any dragon if they are forced to compete under current competition standards.

What Manor will you be competing in?

[YendorLootmonkey]

The top guilds "compete" in a manor that they are the only ones willing to compete at.


and I would add "and have arbitrarily decided that guilds who don't deserve very little."

Fortunately, the number of raid guilds who don't compete at that level are in the majority, and Rogean has stated we will go forward with whatever the majority decides.

So, in effect, its no longer up to the ultra competitive guilds to decide at what level of competition a guild must participate in order to raid Trakanon. We can all set that bar together at a level that is reasonable for the majority of us.

[quido]

Hate to burst your bubble BDA folks, but combined TMO/FE/IB are still going to get the vast majority of stuff. BDA asking for a guaranteed 1/4th split while saying TMO and FE/IB each get a 1/4th split is preposterous.

We are talking about increasing significantly the number of targets available to people who previously didn't get as much or got nothing at all. We are not talking about equal footing between everyone.

[Alarti0001]

We are talking about increasing significantly the number of targets available to people who previously didn't get as much or got nothing at all. We are not talking about equal footing between everyone.

[Ungriim]

What happens some month when TMO reaches the quota and FE or IB don't?

I'm advocating leaving 1 out of X alone no matter what if you've killed it - it is not dependent on a good or bad month, and it holds for all mobs. We can work out details for people who haven't repeatedly killed these mobs to get further attempts.

Then they would presumably get the required amount next month and get put back on the "week off" list? This doesn't apply to the precious VP mobs

[quido]

I still think there is a less-convoluted way of achieving this that better bears in mind our buddies that have done little-to-no raiding.

[YendorLootmonkey]

What happens some month when TMO reaches the quota and FE or IB don't?

Exactly what's supposed to happen. TMO has had their quota of raid targets for the month at that point and bow out of competing until the next month. They should have managed their points better and maybe let other guilds kill some stuff early in the month if they wanted to have enough points to be part of the competition for an end-of-month Trakanon or Phara Dar or whatever, instead of blowing their wad early and dominating everything.

This directly addresses the key issue Rogean mentioned of monopolization of targets, while still allowing for the same level of competition you currently enjoy for most of the month.

[Ungriim]

I understand that they have Jeremy, and it could be partially - if not mostly - to battered wives syndrome. The raid scene has been retarded for so long that they just stopped trying. Well now rogean is telling us to open it up for them to try.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I still think there is a less-convoluted way of achieving this that better bears in mind our buddies that have done little-to-no raiding.

This concept is out the window. We are going by majority here... not what TMO dictates what others should get.

[Ungriim]

Afk driving 4 hours to see family - but I applaud that talks are happening

[Autotune]

^^ er, yeah... this

Rogean has already stated that majority rules and that is what will happen.

Every guild should be discussing what method it wants and then come together and voice their opinion.

IF TMO as a guild doesn't agree to it, it won't fail, instead TMO will stay raid suspended.

Basically, every guild should be figuring out what it thinks is reasonable, then come together with like minded guilds and hash out things and keep doing this until they can all come to an agreement or a vast majority can.

[quido]

This concept is out the window. We are going by majority here... not what TMO dictates what others should get.

That doesn't even make sense. Nobody is dictating anything. I'm pretty sure TMO isn't the only guild that doesn't want equal splits between all guilds.

[Nizzarr]

23 pages for practically a rotation?

Just make a rotation already.

[Ravager]

That doesn't even make sense. Nobody is dictating anything. I'm pretty sure TMO isn't the only guild that doesn't want equal splits between all guilds.

I can't speak for my guild, but I wouldn't mind equal splits between all guilds. Certainly better than the distribution for the last 3 years. Except I wouldn't mind everyone getting a little more than TMO, because they already ate their cake.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

3. Forced raid breaks for high-kill guilds

Explaination: If you look at whokilledit.com, there are 2 dragons on 3 day (~8 kills a month) and 9 dragons on 7 day (~36 kills a month) for a total of roughly 44 dragon kills per month. Lets take that at a 25% rate. 11 dragons a month. ANY guild that kills more than 11 dragons a month is forced to take a raid break from Classic/Kunark dragons for the first week of the following month.

Reasoning: A lot of people are concerned that this 2 hour window thing will just create a top-2-guild-rotation and still not help the server population / nostalgia / raid scene out. I believe that this rule will either 1) Have the top guild sitting out for a week - and more than likely a couple of them sitting out, -or- 2) If they try to dodge it by killing only 11 dragons, then they will be leaving other dragons up anyways by picking and choosing.



All sounds good besides that shit.
It is as complicated as
I have a simple ??? solution. Lets have FE/IB/TMO agree to no poopsocking, no delayed engages, and to leave up 4 dracos, and 2 naggy/vox/tal/sev/gore/fay/inny in an 8/4 cycle. (50%)

CT/Trak/VP always complete, and the draco that pops with CT always compete.
Fuck that. There will be a new 20-40man VERY hardcore guild sniping what dragons they want if some stupid shit like these ideas ever come into play.
In a perfect "world" it may work. But never on here. To complicated and forming a hardcore guild that kills NOT everything but just what they want that week would be the best route for the hardcore.

[JayFiveAlive]

Rotation sounds good to me personally or the point system :P

[radditsu]

Reposting here:

Use the tools we have to make an agreement. Don't depend on repops or variance changes. Those are future issues.

[Bossman]

All sounds good besides this shit.

Don't think that should apply to VP

[gwideon]

I hope the agreement takes into account how people could skirt the rules by setting up "front" guilds to feed a main guild, or guilds that are comprised of temporary guild jumpers to credit the kill to someone else.

Thank you

[Ravager]

Full out rotation is a terrible idea, it will force people to quit the server

People have quit the server without rotations. You can't please everyone. It seems to me that Rogean wants to please the majority.

[radditsu]

I dig bag limits. Ill see if I can put some thought into a point system. There has to be a threat of running out of targets. Maybe add a carbon credit system if a guild runs open naggy raids etc. Does tmo have data on total spawns per month...outside vp.. on raid mobs?

[Yaolin]

High Priority Targets (1 out of 3)

Trakanon (10), Cazic Thule (4), Innorruk (4), Severilous (4), Venril Sathir (4)

Can be killed by a guild one time in every 3 pop rotation. The “rotation” would be reset every three kills, so even if you killed the last one in a rotation you could still try to kill the first one in the next rotation. #1 Guild gets 40% of Trakanon kills and 50% of Severilous, CT, Innorruk, and VS kills. I.E. The last pop of the month would be up for grabs for which guilds gets 1 more than all the rest.

Low Priority Targets (1 out of 4)

Dracoliche (10), Maestro (10), Talendor (4), Gorenaire (4), Faydedar (4)

Can be killed by a guild one time in every 4 pop rotation. The “rotation” would be reset every three kills, so even if you killed the last one in a rotation you could still try to kill the first one in the next rotation. #1 and #2 Guilds gets 30% of Maestro and Draco kills and 25% of Talendor, Gorenaire, and Faydedar kills. I.E. The last pop of the month would be up for grabs.



“Rotations” are reset when a “High Priority” target has been killed three times, a “Low Priority” target has been killed four times, or a new calendar month has arrived.

This policy would do much better if variance were say halved, it would allow guilds that are not batphone to have a 100% increased chance in seeing a mob pop if they raid in that specific zone during the mobs window.

Also no one mob is ever guaranteed to a particular guild so all mobs will probably be killed in very short order. To those of us that can only play for a few hours a night during the week this would only increase our chances to actually seeing mobs up during raid windows from 5% to maybe 10% once in a while and obviously the end of each month would be the most fun.

[Alarti0001]

All sounds good besides that shit.
It is as complicated as

Fuck that. There will be a new 20-40man VERY hardcore guild sniping what dragons they want if some stupid shit like these ideas ever come into play.
In a perfect "world" it may work. But never on here. To complicated and forming a hardcore guild that kills NOT everything but just what they want that week would be the best route for the hardcore.

A very hardcore guild wouldn't be satisfied without ct/vs/trak/VP.
The reason for this entire concept is the lack of hardcore.

Get off that purp before you post Turp

[radditsu]

Alarti is tmo dkp open to view? I figure yall would have the most accurate over time numbers.

[Argh]

I have a simple solution. Lets have FE/IB/TMO agree to no poopsocking, no delayed engages, and to leave up 4 dracos, and 2 naggy/vox/tal/sev/gore/fay/inny in an 8/4 cycle. (50%)

CT/Trak/VP always complete, and the draco that pops with CT always compete.

This is the only really reasonable solution I've seen here. It doesn't require creating a rule book that anyone who wants to raid will have to read through. It leaves the raid scene open for anyone who wants to participate. It is basically TMO/FE/IB agreeing to not engage a number of specific mobs (Isn't this what everyone wanted a week ago?).

Most of the other solutions posted here seem to create an even larger barrier to entry to begin raiding if you're not in a mid tier guild(e.g. BDA/Taken). Also, these more complex solutions(raid points, rotations, etc.) require a ton of oversight. These systems(rotations specifically) also nullify any possibility, albeit small, of public and pick-up raids.

[Shinko]

god never thought i would almost side with alarti, there are 40% of this server that want to raid 24/7 and the other 60% don't give a fuck and only want to get there epics and stop playing.

[Ravager]

And when you have a server with a pretty finite timeline, a rotation would be toxic.

How could it possibly get any more toxic?

[Lammy]

We already know the solution to this problem because it happened on live. We need PoK and Instances are we're gtg for casual mode.

[radditsu]

Bag system would basically add one field to whokilledit.com

[Shinko]

why can't people just log in faster?

[Argh]

Trak/CT/VS should not be on the always compete list, only VS.

Why?

[Ravager]

god never thought i would almost side with alarti, there are 40% of this server that want to raid 24/7 and the other 60% don't give a fuck and only want to get there epics and stop playing.

40% of the server might fare better on red where they can raid to their heart's content.

[radditsu]

We already know the solution to this problem because it happened on live. We need PoK and Instances are we're gtg for casual mode.

Pop didn't have instances silly.

[Alarti0001]

Why?

Because that is what I feel (and may be wrong) is what a lot of the contention is; epic cock-blocking. How many Traks and VS kills are had by non-TMO/FEIB?

Didnt you mention you werent guilded earlier?

[Alarti0001]

Pop didn't have instances silly.

Wasn't PoTimeb an instance?
But ya instances in large part started with LDON

[Thulack]

Pop didn't have instances silly.

Wasn't PoTimeb an instance?
But ya instances in large part started with LDON

PoP wasnt instanced at first. Then was made instanced.

[radditsu]

PoP wasnt instanced at first. Then was made instanced.

Yeah time got instanced in a later expansion. We had a 2 day rotation for awhile. Soon as 3 guilds got time flagged

[Alarti0001]

Yeah time got instanced in a later expansion. We had a 2 day rotation for awhile. Soon as 3 guilds got time flagged

Ya I was in boot camp and such for the beginning of PoP. Totally missed out on the early PoP

[Hailto]

U ex-military alarti?

[Yinikren]

I've read half this thread so far, but all I can see so far is that no one here can agree on a way to split mobs that doesn't give TMO 80% or more of the attempts... Isn't that a monopoly and the whole thing we are trying to prevent? :) This is why I suggested a XASTEN STYLE BAG LIMIT in the other thread. Limit the mob intake.

[radditsu]

I thought instances started with epic revamps in Velious and ring wars and such and continued in Luclin with Khati Sha

Those were world events. I remember a ton of people helping on my ring war.

The epics were just spawned with a turnin.

[radditsu]

I've read half this thread so far, but all I can see so far is that no one here can agree on a way to split mobs that doesn't give TMO 80% or more of the attempts... Isn't that a monopoly and the whole thing we are trying to prevent? :) This is why I suggested a XASTEN STYLE BAG LIMIT in the other thread. Limit the mob intake.

I am trying to get accurate numbers of spawns per month per mob over time now.


We really need a good ddungeon master for this.

[Yinikren]

I am trying to get accurate numbers of spawns per month per mob over time now.


We really need a good ddungeon master for this.

Wouldn't have to worry about that if mobs cost points, guilds got 100 points a week, and couldn't go over their limit. Point costs get scaled back in velious to account for more targets. Problem solved.

Also prevents monopolies of things like ST key mobs in the future.

[Ravager]

I've read half this thread so far, but all I can see so far is that no one here can agree on a way to split mobs that doesn't give TMO 80% or more of the attempts... Isn't that a monopoly and the whole thing we are trying to prevent? :) This is why I suggested a XASTEN STYLE BAG LIMIT in the other thread. Limit the mob intake.

I think most of those suggestions were to just bring TMO to the negotiating table to begin with, something they never even considered before. But now that Rogean has given the rest of the server the majority rule, I think the monopoly is effectively dead.

[radditsu]

Wouldn't have to worry about that if mobs cost points, guilds got 100 points a week, and couldn't go over their limit. Point costs get scaled back in velious to account for more targets. Problem solved.

Also prevents monopolies of things like ST key mobs in the future.

You stil need real numbers if you want people to use points effectively. If they get 100 points and all the mobs are a total of 90 points that isnt forcing any guild to do anything differently.

According to TMO front page news Trak has spawned 254 times over 28 months. (As of nov 5th) That is 9ish traks a month. Which Means 9/4 traks a week. The math will be easier with monthly points. If done right could add up to big gains by other guilds at the end of the month. Then in this case TMO get their govt check at the start of the month and spend spend spend.

Combine this with an agreement to not poopsock and camp over x amount of toons at spawn points. I think would be effective.

You need to make the points work in regards to having 2 guilds not possibly dominate all spawns. I need spawn numbers before I could make a determination.

[radditsu]

I am SURE adventure time frezia would love to extrapolate his idea to the highest degree. As much as he loves to verbose post :p

[Yinikren]

I am glad tmo is at least on the table with this decision so that of course is a huge plus.

Doesn't stop the fact that TMO/IBFE getting 80+% of the encounters is still a monopoly though. I liked Deru's 2 hour 2 guild rule, but that still leaves everyone to compete with whatever week TMO and IBFE don't have people camped at each target. FTE wars are garbage and everyone knows this.

The bag limit where guilds need to actively pick and pursue targets they need in a week, while leaving others up because they have to, seems like a good choice on paper for limiting mobs per guild, which is the entire reason we are having this discussion.

[YendorLootmonkey]

You stil need real numbers if you want people to use points effectively. If they get 100 points and all the mobs are a total of 90 points that isnt forcing any guild to do anything differently.

According to TMO front page news Trak has spawned 254 times over 28 months. (As of nov 5th) That is 9ish traks a month. Which Means 9/4 traks a week. The math will be easier with monthly points. If done right could add up to big gains by other guilds at the end of the month. Then in this case TMO get their govt check at the start of the month and spend spend spend.

Combine this with an agreement to not poopsock and camp over x amount of toons at spawn points. I think would be effective.

You need to make the points work in regards to having 2 guilds not possibly dominate all spawns. I need spawn numbers before I could make a determination.

You could even have server repops as freebies, not counting towards the "bag limit", since it would throw off whatever points balance would be calculated.

Another point to consider is the "extended overtime" variance would skew the ability to calculate a feasible points limit... would the staff consider at least removing that extended variance?

[Alarti0001]

I am glad tmo is at least on the table with this decision so that of course is a huge plus.

Doesn't stop the fact that TMO/IBFE getting 80+% of the encounters is still a monopoly though. I liked Deru's 2 hour 2 guild rule, but that still leaves everyone to compete with whatever week TMO and IBFE don't have people camped at each target. FTE wars are garbage and everyone knows this.

The bag limit where guilds need to actively pick and pursue targets they need in a week, while leaving others up because they have to, seems like a good choice on paper for limiting mobs per guild, which is the entire reason we are having this discussion.

3 guilds getting 80% of the kills is not a monopoly by the very definition of monopoly.
2 guilds getting 80% of the kills is not a monopoly. 1 guild getting 80% of the kills is pretty close to a monopoly.

[Alarti0001]

U ex-military alarti?

yea

[Valoril]

It continues to be an aggravating realization among CSR staff that 10% of the server population causes 90% of the problems. We are all for competition, but it needs to be fair competition. We are also all here for the same thing, to experience classic Everquest. The same guild monopolizing raid content for 2 years that they might not even need anymore is ridiculous, just to block other guilds from the chance of gearing up to take on the same end game content.

I don't post much here but this issue is obviously an issue for everybody so I read this whole thread.
My impression is that it is 5 or 6 persons, always the same, who didn't really understand the above quote and seem to be somehow convinced that they are deciding about what will be and what will not be the rules on P99.

Somebody even wrote something in the sense "Rotation will never happen because I don't like it".
On the other hand there are some 10 guilds able to raid and I don't see them giving their opinions and votes here.

My suggestion : create a board section for Guild leaderships ONLY.
For each guild 2 representatives.
The names of the guilds are chosen by CSR for their ability to raid.
That makes about 20 people.
They discuss whatever they need to discuss and vote if some points need voting.
2/3 majority wins the vote.

As we were clearly told : Mods WILL enforce the decisions
This means that if the already mentioned 10% who cause 95% of the problems don't like the decisions of the majority they have only 2 options - either leave or obey.
Should there be despite everything still somebody who willfully breaks the rules decided by the majority, he gets banned.

With that the 10% that would potentially cause problems shrink to 0% within 1 month.

[radditsu]

You could even have server repops as freebies, not counting towards the "bag limit", since it would throw off whatever points balance would be calculated.

Another point to consider is the "extended overtime" variance would skew the ability to calculate a feasible points limit... would the staff consider at least removing that extended variance?


All of my points are on the basis of zero changes by the staff. Which I think they would prefer

[quido]

Given you know the average spawn times (3 and 7 days if you discount extended windows) it shouldn't be hard to figure out how many mobs you'll see a month on average. The only other thing that can mess with this figure is a full repop, and there seems to be a consensus that the normal distribution won't apply to such an event.

[Jarnauga]

Another point to consider is the "extended overtime" variance would skew the ability to calculate a feasible points limit... would the staff consider at least removing that extended variance?

Please please please remove the extended variance. It has failed removing the poopsocking (see VS), which was the whole point. It also bring less raid targets in the end, and we're actually talking about getting more targets to more people.

[Clark]

http://s28.postimg.org/s9s6jh4vx/Untitled8888888.png

[radditsu]

Given you know the average spawn times (3 and 7 days if you discount extended windows) it shouldn't be hard to figure out how many mobs you'll see a month on average. The only other thing that can mess with this figure is a full repop, and there seems to be a consensus that the normal distribution won't apply to such an event.

I honestly don't know how much variance has messed with the average spawn over time. Especially extended windows.

You would think almost none but I bet there is at least a nudge toward less spawns per month

[Yinikren]

Points cost system would work fine with variance gone and bonus weekly repops not counting towards the cost for guilds each week - they are free mobs.

To the guy who said it wouldn't change anything because the mobs would only equal 90 points or whatever (on my phone at work, sorry for not looking) - it won't. Mobs should equal 4-500 points or so altogether. That gives 4-5 guilds 100 points worth of raiding a week, and that means there's even more mobs to go around for the guilds that don't reach their cap. Trak and Epic mobs could be 50 points each - meaning by default no guild gets more than 2 a week. Points costs could be scaled down when velious drops because of the influx of raid mobs. ST key mobs could be 40, for instance, limiting guilds to 2 key mobs a week and at the expense of other loot mobs. Epic mobs and loot mobs could drop to 10-25 points each because there will be a ton more encounters and epics won't be so bottlenecky. The system can constantly be adjusted to limit the number of times a week a guild can eat from the mob pie.

[radditsu]

Points cost system would work fine with variance gone and bonus weekly repops not counting towards the cost for guilds each week - they are free mobs.

To the guy who said it wouldn't change anything because the mobs would only equal 90 points or whatever (on my phone at work, sorry for not looking) - it won't. Mobs should equal 4-500 points or so altogether. That gives 4-5 guilds 100 points worth of raiding a week, and that means there's even more mobs to go around for the guilds that don't reach their cap. Trak and Epic mobs could be 50 points each - meaning by default no guild gets more than 2 a week. Points costs could be scaled down when velious drops because of the influx of raid mobs. ST key mobs could be 40, for instance, limiting guilds to 2 key mobs a week and at the expense of other loot mobs. Epic mobs and loot mobs could drop to 10-25 points each because there will be a ton more encounters and epics won't be so bottlenecky. The system can constantly be adjusted to limit the number of times a week a guild can eat from the mob pie.

You cant hope for variance changes or repops. Unless rogean says they will do so. It makes sense to use real numbers in a senario as it stands today.