Proposition For Raid Rules - Input Requested

[Bossman]

Plus weekly repops would be far too frequent

[Troubled]

Points cost system would work fine with variance gone and bonus weekly repops not counting towards the cost for guilds each week - they are free mobs.

To the guy who said it wouldn't change anything because the mobs would only equal 90 points or whatever (on my phone at work, sorry for not looking) - it won't. Mobs should equal 4-500 points or so altogether. That gives 4-5 guilds 100 points worth of raiding a week, and that means there's even more mobs to go around for the guilds that don't reach their cap. Trak and Epic mobs could be 50 points each - meaning by default no guild gets more than 2 a week. Points costs could be scaled down when velious drops because of the influx of raid mobs. ST key mobs could be 40, for instance, limiting guilds to 2 key mobs a week and at the expense of other loot mobs. Epic mobs and loot mobs could drop to 10-25 points each because there will be a ton more encounters and epics won't be so bottlenecky. The system can constantly be adjusted to limit the number of times a week a guild can eat from the mob pie.

There's no reason repops shouldn't count toward a point limit. They reset the spawn timer of raid mobs. Point system doesn't have to be exclusive either, it could still have a time limit rule applied. If said mob killed after timer, no points taken.

[radditsu]

There's no reason repops shouldn't count toward a point limit. They reset the spawn timer of raid mobs. Point system doesn't have to be exclusive either, it could still have a time limit rule applied. If said mob killed after timer, no points taken.

If they are consistent repops. That can be accounted for then they should be added. If its a random event. They should be gravy.

[quido]

I honestly don't know how much variance has messed with the average spawn over time. Especially extended windows.

You would think almost none but I bet there is at least a nudge toward less spawns per month

Before the extended windows, average spawn times were 3 and 7 days. Since that time, they've been slightly more. There's nothing really complicated about it unless it's bugged.

[radditsu]

Before the extended windows, average spawn times were 3 and 7 days. Since that time, they've been slightly more. There's nothing really complicated about it unless it's bugged.

If there is no significant amount of change (id say less than 1% increase in spawn times. I will just go off avg spawns then.

[radditsu]

Draco averaging 3 a week?

[Yinikren]

Yes, for my previous message, points values were being assigned under the assumption that repops would not happen weekly and thus could not be consistantly accounted for. Weekly repops seems a bit much when most of these mobs have a weeklong spawn timer as it is.

[Troubled]

If they are consistent repops. That can be accounted for then they should be added. If its a random event. They should be gravy.

A random event that still happens maybe once every month or 2 would still benefit guilds that don't mobilize as quickly if points are deducted. If they can't get their shit together after say 2 hours, no points deducted from the guild that kills whatever target past that point. Mobs still won't stay up all that long.

[radditsu]

Soo 58 raids a month if you leave two open naggy and one open vox? Thats makig draco when ct pops a second encounter


Outside of vp of course..

[radditsu]

A random event that still happens maybe once every month or 2 would still benefit guilds that don't mobilize as quickly if points are deducted. If they can't get their shit together after say 2 hours, no points deducted from the guild that kills whatever target past that point. Mobs still won't stay up all that long.


If you want it account for it.

In a fair open system you need to build a base off of things that happen. The way it works now is all the data we have. Numbers can be crunched if rogean says "
POPS FOR EVERYONE! MAKE IT RAIN!"

As she stands we have windows and no repops. I am not saying that you shouldnt lobby for them. Repops are a blast. But yeah.... aside from fte shouts they are focused on velious. And fte shouts benefit the GMs the most out of everyone.

[Tyym]

Rogean has already stated that majority rules and that is what will happen.

Every guild should be discussing what method it wants and then come together and voice their opinion.

IF TMO as a guild doesn't agree to it, it won't fail, instead TMO will stay raid suspended.

Basically, every guild should be figuring out what it thinks is reasonable, then come together with like minded guilds and hash out things and keep doing this until they can all come to an agreement or a vast majority can.

Rogean said we should discuss it. We are discussing it. He didn't say that we should wrap up raid targets on a silver platter and hand them to you. FE/IB & TMO will likely come to some agreement where we will give time allotments for responses to raid targets where we will not intervene and perhaps even give up 1 out of every 5 or 6 mobs. But we wont agree to a system that puts a rotation in place or coddles weaker guilds into obtaining loot. If you want to compete: unite, build alliances, track, respond and knock us off the chair. But for fuck sakes at least work for it.

Morphius

[Yinikren]

Maybe 1/6 screams monopoly. New ideas please, and don't be so angry next time.

You aren't adapting one more guild into the mix. You are adapting 4 or 5 who wish to raid and see endgame content more than once a year.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Rogean said we should discuss it. We are discussing it. He didn't say that we should wrap up raid targets on a silver platter and hand them to you. FE/IB & TMO will likely come to some agreement where we will give time allotments for responses to raid targets where we will not intervene and perhaps even give up 1 out of every 5 or 6 mobs. But we wont agree to a system that puts a rotation in place or coddles weaker guilds into obtaining loot. If you want to compete: unite, build alliances, track, respond and knock us off the chair. But for fuck sakes at least work for it.

Morphius

This post pretty much embodies why we need to determine how consensus will be found on this issue. If it's a 1 person 1 vote system, then we'll end up with a server rotation. Anything in any democratic sense is not going to favor the people currently getting targets. Which is why in my previous thread I'm simply looking for an answer as to how the 'raiding guild consensus' Rogean mentioned will be found. It directly impacts discussion, or whether there is even a discussion to be had.

Are we still tracking / engaging things in seconds, rotating targets, or having the two major guilds throw the smaller guilds a bone every now and again? Because those are the only three options I'm seeing here in the grand sense. And which one will be chosen is determined 100% by CSR, because they're choosing the rules that will be enforced. And the rules that will be enforced is determined by "the raiding community" which needs to be described in further detail by Rogean or whoever is making such a decision.

[radditsu]

Ok so... lets say of 58 raids are 580 points. 220 points are alloted to all guilds...flat. if guilds like tmo and fe hit 220 that is 440 points

580-440 =140. Or 14 raids per month open without issues. They will...by definition be whatever the top decides to not go after.


HOWEVER. IF TMO/fe/ib/bda sponsors an open naggy or vox raid (10 point value) they can gain 20 points for 2 more targets per month. That way they can still kill dragons and shit.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Ok so... lets say of 58 raids are 580 points. 220 points are alloted to all guilds...flat. if guilds like tmo and fe hit 220 that is 440 points

580-440 =140. Or 14 raids per month open without issues. They will...by definition be whatever the top decides to not go after.


HOWEVER. IF TMO/fe/ib/bda sponsors an open naggy or vox raid (10 point value) they can gain 20 points for 2 more targets per month. That way they can still kill dragons and shit.

All neat ideas and I'm sure they can be discussed further, but I just feel like we're missing a step. How does the server as a whole with no real organizational structure decide rules to propose to Rogean to be enforced?

[radditsu]

All neat ideas and I'm sure they can be discussed further, but I just feel like we're missing a step. How does the server as a whole with no real organizational structure decide rules to propose to Rogean to be enforced?

I assume by registered mail.


Or we have a spokesman from the "families" post on the forums after whatever deal is reached. I am not privy to any guild summit so far. Make a council. Do an aim chat. Find a well liked guy to post it here. It requires some work on their part.

[radditsu]

I just like extrapolating ideas!

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I assume by registered mail.


Or we have a spokesman from the "families" post on the forums after whatever deal is reached. I am not privy to any guild summit so far. Make a council. Do an aim chat. Find a well liked guy to post it here. It requires some work on their part.

Then this seems like something that CSR staff should ask for to get the process started. Form the basis of discussion, inform them that the decision of that council is binding and begin discussion.

[radditsu]

I assume that is what rogean basically said in your thread :)

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I assume that is what rogean basically said in your thread :)

Excellent. Then we just wait for details.

edit: But seriously, this does make me want to find the post referring to that there would never be a GM enforced rotation on this server. It appears times have changed ^_^ Can't remember if it was nilbog sirken or rogean, though. Was one of the three.

[Alarti0001]

Excellent. Then we just wait for details.

edit: But seriously, this does make me want to find the post referring to that there would never be a GM enforced rotation on this server. It appears times have changed ^_^ Can't remember if it was nilbog sirken or rogean, though. Was one of the three.

2 of the three!

[radditsu]

I don't think a rotation will win the day. But the fact that a serious discussion about it is surprising. Given the server history. Lot of bloody wars fought for pixels

[Bossman]

How should guilds that raid together be treated in a point scenario?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I don't think a rotation will win the day. But the fact that a serious discussion about it is surprising. Given the server history. Lot of bloody wars fought for pixels

Anything where a guild will have to "stand down" from engaging a target they are prepared to kill is a rotation. They are forfeiting their attempt due to outside rules.

[Troubled]

Rogean said we should discuss it. We are discussing it. He didn't say that we should wrap up raid targets on a silver platter and hand them to you. FE/IB & TMO will likely come to some agreement where we will give time allotments for responses to raid targets where we will not intervene and perhaps even give up 1 out of every 5 or 6 mobs. But we wont agree to a system that puts a rotation in place or coddles weaker guilds into obtaining loot. If you want to compete: unite, build alliances, track, respond and knock us off the chair. But for fuck sakes at least work for it.

Morphius

People that are interested in that scene are already in those guilds. Rogean also said majority rules, and you shouldn't feel like you're on the top of some tower where you get to choose what scraps and how often to toss down to the normies. If most of the people that form any of these "casual" guilds were together on live they'd be the dominant guild on their respective server.

[Yinikren]

Ok so... lets say of 58 raids are 580 points. 220 points are alloted to all guilds...flat. if guilds like tmo and fe hit 220 that is 440 points

580-440 =140. Or 14 raids per month open without issues. They will...by definition be whatever the top decides to not go after.


HOWEVER. IF TMO/fe/ib/bda sponsors an open naggy or vox raid (10 point value) they can gain 20 points for 2 more targets per month. That way they can still kill dragons and shit.

Wouldn't work on the basis that all mobs are the same value so lower guilds will be left with scrap mobs. The idea is that every mob costs a certain point value, and guilds who kill that mob subtract the value from their points total for the week.

This opens up raiding for at least 4-5 guilds, ends all monopoly, fosters competition for valuble mobs while making guilds decide what to pursue, and will police itself because guilds always know the instant another guild kills a mob. All we need is a GM to drop a week suspension on guilds that go over their limit and this system should run itself after the server decides on mob point values.

In my idea, Monday morning at 12.01 am every guild on the server capable of raiding gets 100 points that week. Now, lets look at point costs. These are numbers pulled directly from my own ass to give an example.

Trak costs 50 points. You are GIVING UP opportunities for gear off other mobs to key your force for VP.

VP dragons cost 25 each. You are GIVING UP a trak attempt and one dragon (Nexona I am sure) to do a VP clear for loot. Points costs can always be adjusted, like PD could be 40 points and Nexona 20 or something more relevant given the quality of the loot.

Mobs dropping epic pieces (Inny, CT, Fay, etc. Would be server poll to see if scale dropping dragons should count, I would say no) are 50 points. If you want to get epic pieces, you are GIVING UP something for it, either a Trak attempt or other loot mobs.

Non-epic Kunark and Vanilla mobs (Assuming scales do not count since they are droppable, so Sev, Gore, Talendor, Draco, etc) can be 25 points, or whatever we as a server decide. Naggy and Vox would probably cost less and Noble in sky with his associated cycle should probably cost more. You are GIVING UP attempts on trak or loot mobs in VP if you go after these mobs, or vice versa.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Wouldn't work on the basis that all mobs are the same value so lower guilds will be left with scrap mobs. The idea is that every mob costs a certain point value, and guilds who kill that mob subtract the value from their points total for the week.

This opens up raiding for at least 4-5 guilds, ends all monopoly, fosters competition for valuble mobs while making guilds decide what to pursue, and will police itself because guilds always know the instant another guild kills a mob. All we need is a GM to drop a week suspension on guilds that go over their limit and this system should run itself after the server decides on mob point values.

In my idea, Monday morning at 12.01 am every guild on the server capable of raiding gets 100 points that week. Now, lets look at point costs. These are numbers pulled directly from my own ass to give an example.

Trak costs 50 points. You are GIVING UP opportunities for gear off other mobs to key your force for VP.

VP dragons cost 25 each. You are GIVING UP a trak attempt and one dragon (Nexona I am sure) to do a VP clear for loot. Points costs can always be adjusted, like PD could be 40 points and Nexona 20 or something more relevant given the quality of the loot.

Mobs dropping epic pieces (Inny, CT, Fay, etc. Would be server poll to see if scale dropping dragons should count, I would say no) are 50 points. If you want to get epic pieces, you are GIVING UP something for it, either a Trak attempt or other loot mobs.

Non-epic Kunark and Vanilla mobs (Assuming scales do not count since they are droppable, so Sev, Gore, Talendor, Draco, etc) can be 25 points, or whatever we as a server decide. Naggy and Vox would probably cost less and Noble in sky with his associated cycle should probably cost more. You are GIVING UP attempts on trak or loot mobs in VP if you go after these mobs, or vice versa.

I also think most interestingly about a points system is that it encourages low numbers attempts. With the point system proposed, TMO could split into TMO 1 TMO 2 TMO 3 and have enough points to continue decimating the mobs. With your rules, are you also saying that TMO 2 and TMO 3 are not allowed to attack TMO 1's mob? Are we now not allowed to attack mobs that people ask for assistance with?

[Yinikren]

Oh, and in the case of multi guild attempts on mobs, I would say that whoever gets awarded loot gets the points subtracted. If Nii and BDA team up to take down Gore, and a Nii pally gets the scale and BDA gets a bracer, both guilds would pay Gore's cost. Last weekend where A team and Taken were together in sky, but A team did not take any loot, then Taken would pay the cost of nobles. Etcetera.

[radditsu]

How should guilds that raid together be treated in a point scenario?

There still is a risk to not get your full point spread. Competition is still there. If they want to raid together to make it easier. Then they share a point bucket. If they want to go separate...they need to compete against each other. Do not think I am trying to give fe/ib (love my fe bros tho) an advantage with 440 points. If they want to split, They need to do the work like the a-team or bda would. With no help by others on the engage. No cheating or shennaigans.



Also all of this is NOT counting vp kills. The big 2/3 should be more focused on vp anyway.

[Yinikren]

I would like to think that GMs would catch on quickly to prevent a guild splintering solely for the purpose of more mob attempts. There's a reason I haven't acknowledged bob guild in a post yet, they have to earn their spot for points - how I am sure we can decide as a server.

It could even be a time thing - a guild has to exist for 6 months before they can claim they want points for raid attempts, or some such rule.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

There still is a risk to not get your full point spread. Competition is still there. If they want to raid together to make it easier. Then they share a point bucket. If they want to go separate...they need to compete against each other. Do not think I am trying to give fe/ib (love my fe bros tho) an advantage with 440 points. If they want to split, They need to do the work like the a-team or bda would. With no help by others on the engage. No cheating or shennaigans.



Also all of this is NOT counting vp kills. The big 2/3 should be more focused on vp anyway.

But how are points awarded? Guild size or per tag? If it's per tag you could simply have shell guilds that raid together. If it's per size (5 pts per member, or w/e) then you're again encouraging giant numbers in guilds monopolizing content. If it's guild caps with capped points, then you're encouraging hardcores with shell guilds.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I would like to think that GMs would catch on quickly to prevent a guild splintering solely for the purpose of more mob attempts. There's a reason I haven't acknowledged bob guild in a post yet, they have to earn their spot for points - how I am sure we can decide as a server.

It could even be a time thing - a guild has to exist for 6 months before they can claim they want points for raid attempts, or some such rule.

Time to start buying up old guild tags, ho ho ho.

[radditsu]

See I dont like a weighted number system for two reasons.

1. Almost all boss mobs drop epic pieces for someone.
2. The math gets all squirrelly and I got a broken finger and I dont want to do it!

[HeallunRumblebelly]

See I dont like a weighted number system for two reasons.

1. Almost all boss mobs drop epic pieces for someone.
2. The math gets all squirrelly and I got a broken finger and I dont want to do it!

With whokilledit and other raid timers on google docs, as a member of BDA you're well aware that there are people on this server fully capable and willing of maintaining such a system. The reality is a points system will be gamed in whatever way it is set up, especially if the number of points available to the entire server (whoever they choose to organize) vastly outstrips the amount of mobs available. The problem also being made worse by the fact that there's ~ 10 targets outside of VP worth contesting.

[radditsu]

But how are points awarded? Guild size or per tag? If it's per tag you could simply have shell guilds that raid together. If it's per size (5 pts per member, or w/e) then you're again encouraging giant numbers in guilds monopolizing content. If it's guild caps with capped points, then you're encouraging hardcores with shell guilds.


A raid system shouldn't care about the size of a guild. If they want to splinter then they should be prepared to work by what their TAG brings to the table.


I have not thought through the effects on multi guild raids. If they want to "help" a guild... outside of an "open" raid and not get loot.... thats fine. But if they get loot they need to spend points.

[Yinikren]

But I already did the math Rad! :p Clearly the server would have to agree on the cost per mob. Those numbers I just came up with can always be tweaked in our shiny raid forums.

Plus, you have to think about the future - Velious. We only have 19 raid mobs, counting Noble Dojorn and his loot train as one. VERROUS brings 58 mobs by my count, so point costs can be adjusted then when there's more mobs to go around. ST key piece mobs can be increased in price to prevent one guild taking all 5 a week. Things can always be adjusted based on what works.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

A raid system shouldn't care about the size of a guild. If they want to splinter then they should be prepared to work by what their TAG brings to the table.


I have not thought through the effects on multi guild raids. If they want to "help" a guild... outside of an "open" raid and not get loot.... thats fine. But if they get loot they need to spend points.

Sure, but you know that TMO and IBFE is massive. They could split into smaller guilds and get more points by whatever measure to spend on such targets.

edit: Also, I realize there would most likely be provisions against such things, I'm simply trying to refine those provisions to make the spirit and letter of the rules become as close as possible.

[radditsu]

With whokilledit and other raid timers on google docs, as a member of BDA you're well aware that there are people on this server fully capable and willing of maintaining such a system. The reality is a points system will be gamed in whatever way it is set up, especially if the number of points available to the entire server (whoever they choose to organize) vastly outstrips the amount of mobs available. The problem also being made worse by the fact that there's ~ 10 targets outside of VP worth contesting.

Ex bda and I guess ex FE!

This system as written gives 14 mobs nobody wold have got with our current fte system. The top still needs to work for mobs (which they SHOULD want to do.) The bottom gets more access and can build into the "elite l" tier.


The reason for no vp...as it stands now only 2 or 3 guilds tops can do it. Why should they get punished for more access...you dont have a chance to even kill them.

[Tyym]

I hate to remind you all that Classic Everquest prior to all the instancing and stupidfying of the game provided us an environment exactly as it is now. A population that of players where casual guilds outnumbered hardcore raiders 3 to 1 but with the raid guilds capturing 90% of the loot. It is what made the game fun. As I posted in another thread, if you want easy and everyone to be equal, play WoW. If you want to experience the high end:

1I hate to remind you all that Classic Everquest prior to all the instancing and stupidfying of the game provided us an environment exactly as it is now. A population that of players where casual guilds outnumbered hardcore raiders 3 to 1 but with the raid guilds capturing 90% of the loot. It is what made the game fun. As I posted in another thread, if you want easy and everyone to be equal, play WoW. If you want to experience the high end:

1 Apply to a guild already raiding this content
2 Build your guild to compete and get a full commitment from everyone in it.

[Yinikren]

They aren't punished for doing VP- they are paying to do those mobs instead of epic mobs or trak. They shouldn't get both.

[radditsu]

Of course it would still behoove upper guilds to kill trak... but late in month spawns could be opened up. Of it is agreed to not poopsock/camp out in traks office as part of a gentlemenly agreement. They have just as much chance as anybody else. If they can mobilize.

I am trying to strike a balance between the hardcore. And people with kids...


I am not worrying about velious yet..but it could def be expanded.

If they want to split guilds they need to rely on THEIR OWN people. Shenanigans should be taken up with guild council and/or server staff.

[radditsu]

Tmo will have to race against tmo2 and tmo3 and tmo4 on their own merits.

I am sure some tmo hate the others and only bind together for pixels anyway.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Tmo will have to race against tmo2 and tmo3 and tmo4 on their own merits.

...Why? They'd be working together.

[quido]

I'm not hearing much support for tokens or whatever they're called from people in TMO/FE/IB.

[Yinikren]

Like I said before, split guilds could easily be solved by requiring them to be active for a predetermined amount of time before they are allowed to raid regularly. And GMs should still be able to watch for splitting nonsense.

I think the idea should be to come up with a system that works and can be adapted to velious, rather than us being back in this same position 6 months or a year from now. Points costs and easily be voted on and adjusted and the system wouldn't need change, other than implementing it and getting everyone on board.

[radditsu]

They aren't punished for doing VP- they are paying to do those mobs instead of epic mobs or trak. They shouldn't get both.

Explain. They did put a ton of effort in the key quests and the poopsocking for a tooth and the training. This system still rewards effort.

I am not married to the 220 out of 580 either. The concept is the point.

[Troubled]

I'm not hearing much support for tokens or whatever they're called from people in TMO/FE/IB.

Propose a better plan. Alarti's was ok, but he made sure to leave Trak/VS/CT a shitshow.

[radditsu]

I'm not hearing much support for tokens or whatever they're called from people in TMO/FE/IB.

I could give a shit! Mine is an intellectual pursuit.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I'm not hearing much support for tokens or whatever they're called from people in TMO/FE/IB.

If it's a majority consensus, tmo/fe/ib's input on the raid scene is much smaller than the teeming masses who haven't gotten a kill in a long time, if ever. The conflicting interests will make for interesting proposals. The fact of the matter is, unless GMs say that TMO and IBFE cannot engage a target, they will kill that target, so any ruleset will have to have some way for those guilds to be able to engage a target hours after without interference.

I think it's important to remember that those who want to raid on this server without having to dedicate their lives to it are far greater in number than those who are currently raiding. Casuals killing even classic EQ I guess :p

[Tegellan]

Epics for everyone!

[Yinikren]

^^^what sarius said without having to type it. If they aren't paying for content they are free to take more. That goes for any guild. This system promotes choice, the guilds have to pursue what they need the most, not just collect everything because they have more accounts.

[radditsu]

If they do not have to spend points on VP then they can just continue to lock down Trak and vs and cock-block epics

Vs is kinda boned unless you rotate it. Its an easy to get to mob.


If nobody has stuck a raid force in/near the bottom of seb you have a good a chance as anybody.


For once I am trying to not sound like a communist!

[Yinikren]

VS is an easy mob, but VS also costs half a guilds allocation of points. Sure, they can kill VS and trak. These leaves other guilds to take every other mob, VP included. That's the choice they made on engage.

[Yinikren]

Fosters competition because guilds will still be after epic mobs, trak leys, etc this system doesn't HAND mobs to guilds. It makes them work for what they want to kill. Every guild on the server still wants epic mobs, but if TMO cleared VP and FE killed trak for keys, every other guild can now compete with a guild not named TMO for epic mobs.

[radditsu]

How does this system foster competition? I'm slow, sorry

You spend points as you kill mobs. You still race. You still work against guilds. You just agree to leave it alone after your guild gets its bag limit.

[Yinikren]

You spend points as you kill mobs. You still race. You still work against guilds. You just agree to leave it alone after your guild gets its bag limit.

Nicely put, cleaner than my post.

[radditsu]

VS is an easy mob, but VS also costs half a guilds allocation of points. Sure, they can kill VS and trak. These leaves other guilds to take every other mob, VP included. That's the choice they made on engage.

I just do not like the fact that one persons epic mob is better than anothers epic mob. And they all drop non Epic stuff too. Fact: some epics are harder. But this is chance at one or two extra shots at a mob a month.


There is a reason vs and trak become spawnable in velious.

[Tegellan]

If everyone has an Epic weapon are they really "Epic" anymore or just another random quest.

The idea behind "Epic" weapons were that only the top people on the server would have them. This everyone should have a shot at epics is crap..

I am all for giving raid mobs to all the raiding guilds provided they "Work" for them.. (Not meaning we need to continue like we are with TMO/FE/IB camping out and running in the second any mob spawns)

I am not for giving mobs like Trakanon to "Carebares R Us" just because they asked for a spot in a silly rotation or had 400 tokens to spend after playing wack-a-mole for 6 months.

[radditsu]

Maybe VP should not count then. In the spirits of competition, guilds should have to work to get into VP and that means putting in more work for Trak. We just need to do something about anti-camp radius or something.

Yeah a couple of times I said a no raidforce in seb would have to be agreed upon.

[Autotune]

Point system needs a much better tiered system per raid target than what some of you are suggesting. It's not about limiting a guild to 1 or 2 targets. it's about making them choose between a few high value targets, a bunch of low value targets, or a mix, but keeping any one guild from having a monopoly. While also mixing in some strategy for low level and high level guilds.

I see no reason why a guild should not be able to kill pd, vs, trak and inny in a single week, but i do see a reason why they shouldn't be able to take all of VP, ct, vs, trak, inny, fay, naggy, vox, and tal in a single week.

[Yinikren]

All epic mobs should cost the same, except for probably scale dropping dragons since they are droppable. This can always go up for server vote. But it shouldn't tier epics.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

The devil is certainly in the details in these points systems. Please explain how in your system points would be distributed to players/guilds ?

[Yinikren]

Point system needs a much better tiered system per raid target than what some of you are suggesting. It's not about limiting a guild to 1 or 2 targets. it's about making them choose between a few high value targets, a bunch of low value targets, or a mix, but keeping any one guild from having a monopoly. While also mixing in some strategy for low level and high level guilds.

I see no reason why a guild should not be able to kill pd, vs, trak and inny in a single week, but i do see a reason why they shouldn't be able to take all of VP, ct, vs, trak, inny, fay, naggy, vox, and tal in a single week.

Point costs on the mobs would be decided on the server, I did just pull numbers out of my ass to show the system. The idea still stands - a guild can work on epics, farm VP loot, or kill trak for keys, but not all three. They've run out of points for the week.

[radditsu]

Soo I have a buddy.


If everyone has an Epic weapon are they really "Epic" anymore or just another random quest.

The idea behind "Epic" weapons were that only the top people on the server would have them. This everyone should have a shot at epics is crap..

I am all for giving raid mobs to all the raiding guilds provided they "Work" for them.. (Not meaning we need to continue like we are with TMO/FE/IB camping out and running in the second any mob spawns)

I am not for giving mobs like Trakanon to "Carebares R Us" just because they asked for a spot in a silly rotation or had 400 tokens to spend after playing wack-a-mole for 6 months.

Every guild has an ability of what it can do. If you are a zerg. You have numbers but must distribute loot to more people...but tracking is easier. Small elite guilds have less people to track with... but gear faster and could get mobilized.

Some guilds may wipe. Some may be awesome. I think if guilds got smaller it is nothing but a good thing tbh. Zerg was a cuss word on my live server.

[Yinikren]

I think any mob capable of raiding, with solid interest in raiding, should be able to put in for points. Family guilds who happen to find a mob up shouldn't be penalized, I don't think, but every guild with the desire to raid regularly should be on the point system. The idea is to limit mob intake on a per guild basis, not penalize a small guild who happens to stumble on a naggy no one has killed yet.

Splinter guilds will be watched by CSR to make sure they aren't splinters of a bigger guild trying to get more mobs. I am also for guilds having to be active a certain period of time before they can get raid points. No random guilds forming like bob guild all of a sudden saying they can claim mobs - they earn the points.

[radditsu]

The devil is certainly in the details in these points systems. Please explain how in your system points would be distributed to players/guilds ?

Mine is just a flat system. You have a potental of x amount of raids. This is to get hardcores to agree that they get x raids a month. If they are really good at mob killin. TMO and FE/ib are not going away. Their machine s need filling.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Every guild has an ability of what it can do. If you are a zerg. You have numbers but must distribute loot to more people...but tracking is easier. Small elite guilds have less people to track with... but gear faster and could get mobilized.

Some guilds may wipe. Some may be awesome. I think if guilds got smaller it is nothing but a good thing tbh. Zerg was a cuss word on my live server.

Split guild into 30 hard pipe hittin *****s per guild, rotate targets / tracking among them, share droppables. Literally nothing changes other than adding more tags.

[radditsu]

Split guild into 30 hard pipe hittin *****s per guild, rotate targets / tracking among them, share droppables. Literally nothing changes other than adding more tags.

Collusion should not be tolerated at all.

[Autotune]

VP should really not be included if there is no training and FE/IB have sufficient force now

VP should definitely count, but every dragon in there other than PD should be the same value as kunark world dragons (very small).

However, I see no reason charging two guilds for working together for a single dragon that no one wants and no other guild is able to compete for it (because they aren't keyed). Promote good will between the guilds by providing a benefit to joint raids.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Collusion should not be tolerated at all.

Then all collusion will not be tolerated. Even barring collusion, these larger guilds may in fact split to simply have a larger share of the loot, leaving the exact same people with their hands empty.

[radditsu]

Basically you got to agree to not be cheating shitheads.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Basically you got to agree to not be cheating shitheads.

Then you need to write the rules in such a way that there cannot be cheating shitheads. That's why I'm asking for specifics here--to avoid what we had here last night. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like this any more than any one of you...

[radditsu]

Yall forgetting my open raid hosting=more raid points!

[Tegellan]

Soo how many points does a fear or Hate clear cost? (These were taken away during the TMO raid suspension so they must be raids and there for cost points)

If your going to be doing this kind of stuff you have to also include the raids that the big guilds no longer consder raids. (Many low level guilds do these on scheduled "Raid nights")

So how many points are chardok royals? Drusilla in HS? Tola or Juggs? Maestro?
What defines a raid???

[radditsu]

Then you need to write the rules in such a way that there cannot be cheating shitheads. That's why I'm asking for specifics here--to avoid what we had here last night. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like this any more than any one of you...

You act like I have a say in the decisions!

[HeallunRumblebelly]

You act like I have a say in the decisions!

Brainstorming. You can't just propose something, flesh it out for 20 pages then crawl away when I shine some light on it.

[Yinikren]

What about a percentage bonus? Lets say two guilds want to team up and kill, say, Severilous. Both guilds get loot and both guilds get charged their points for killing sev. But, next week, because they worked together, both guilds are allocated an extra 25 points to spend because of goodwill. So if they joined raided each week, a guild could stay at a 125 point raid limit. Again, example numbers, but you see what I mean.

[Troubled]

150 points per month per guild

T1 Trak 30pts - VS 70 pts
T2 CT/Inny - 50 pts
T3 Gore/Tal/Sev/Hand/Noble/Fay - 30 pts
T4 Draco/Vox/Naggy - 15 pts

Nex/PD/Hosh/Druushk/Xygoz/SW - 10 per dragon

2 hours after spawn, mob worth 0 points(keeps mobs from staying up for no reason)

Kinda like that? If I'm getting this?

More points can be added when SoV drops with point values for those raid mobs?

[Autotune]

Then you need to write the rules in such a way that there cannot be cheating shitheads. That's why I'm asking for specifics here--to avoid what we had here last night. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like this any more than any one of you...

cool hand luke.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

cool hand luke.

Or GNR, but yeah I was going for a little cool hand luke :3 Egg eatin sonofabitch.

[radditsu]

Soo how many points does a fear or Hate clear cost? (These were taken away during the TMO raid suspension so they must be raids and there for cost points)

If your going to be doing this kind of stuff you have to also include the raids that the big guilds no longer consder raids. (Many low level guilds do these on scheduled "Raid nights")

So how many points are chardok royals? Drusilla in HS? Tola or Juggs? Maestro?
What defines a raid???


Forgot maestro!


I would consider any mob more than one guild mobilize for and race. Royals no due to spawn time. Tola and drusilla no for the same. Fear and hate clears are not for boss mobs. They are for equipment gearing of guilds.

Make judgement calls

[HeallunRumblebelly]

150 points per month per guild

T1 Trak 30pts - VS 70 pts
T2 CT/Inny - 50 pts
T3 Gore/Tal/Sev/Hand/Noble/Fay - 30 pts
T4 Draco/Vox/Naggy - 15 pts

Nex/PD/Hosh/Druushk/Xygoz/SW - 10 per dragon

2 hours after spawn, mob worth 0 points(keeps mobs from staying up for no reason)

Kinda like that? If I'm getting this?

More points can be added when SoV drops with point values for those raid mobs?

So...VS at 70 points eh. Get what, two kills a month at that rate? I'd imagine VS would start to be killed by unguilded alts, seeing as he can be done with like 12 people.

[radditsu]

What about a percentage bonus? Lets say two guilds want to team up and kill, say, Severilous. Both guilds get loot and both guilds get charged their points for killing sev. But, next week, because they worked together, both guilds are allocated an extra 25 points to spend because of goodwill. So if they joined raided each week, a guild could stay at a 125 point raid limit. Again, example numbers, but you see what I mean.

I specifially mean open roll raids. /shout Opem naggy raid pst to dude for more info. I subtracted 2 naggys and a vox a month out of the raid total for this... if you want to organize a talendor or whatever..thats on you

[Troubled]

So...VS at 70 points eh. Get what, two kills a month at that rate? I'd imagine VS would start to be killed by unguilded alts, seeing as he can be done with like 12 people.

2 kills a month, if you want to spend all your points on that. It's a 7 +-96, not exactly an every day thing. I'm looking for content not being monopolized. Remember, these guilds that have been doing it forever don't even need it, so why worry about it.

[Autotune]

150 points per month per guild

T1 Trak 30pts - VS 70 pts
T2 CT/Inny - 50 pts
T3 Gore/Tal/Sev/Hand/Noble/Fay - 30 pts
T4 Draco/Vox/Naggy - 15 pts

Nex/PD/Hosh/Druushk/Xygoz/SW - 10 per dragon

2 hours after spawn, mob worth 0 points(keeps mobs from staying up for no reason)

Kinda like that? If I'm getting this?

More points can be added when SoV drops with point values for those raid mobs?

Monthly would be wrong, weekly is the way to go.

Sky should stay the way it is, rotated and have no cost association.

VS and Trak should both have high values. VS(easy/great drops) Trak (great drops, access to VP) and both are epic mobs.

PD should have a high value, the same or higher than VS and Trak.

CT, INNY, Draco should have moderately high values. (draco that spawns with CT should be free if the guild who kills CT also kills Draco).

Kunark world dragons and VP dragons (not counting PD) should be equal value and relatively low value.

Naggy/Vox/Maestro should be the same or less than the kunark world dragons.


Raiding planes for gear will not cost anything, neither should royals.

[Kope]

150 points per month per guild

T1 Trak 30pts - VS 70 pts
T2 CT/Inny - 50 pts
T3 Gore/Tal/Sev/Hand/Noble/Fay - 30 pts
T4 Draco/Vox/Naggy - 15 pts

Nex/PD/Hosh/Druushk/Xygoz/SW - 10 per dragon

2 hours after spawn, mob worth 0 points(keeps mobs from staying up for no reason)

Kinda like that? If I'm getting this?

More points can be added when SoV drops with point values for those raid mobs?

What if after you kill a mob the points you would need to spend towards a kill of that mob would double if it's within the same month as the original kill, and if you tried for a 3rd kill of the same mob it would double again?

*edit* maybe instead of month, the same week?

[Tegellan]

You can do more for a guild by clearing hate and fear then by killing a dragon (think of how many members get upgrades per clear vs per dragon)


The only difference is that the planes have been out for a long time and as such.. are not perma farmed (the top guilds moved on and only go back occasionally)


The progression is: level up to 50 --> farm planar gear--> Kill outdoor dragons -->(This is where non Hard core guilds should stop till Velious is out) kill Gods --> kill Trak ---enter and kill VP

[Yinikren]

I like the points costs that Autotune has come up with, they are similar to mine and for the same reasons.

[radditsu]

So...VS at 70 points eh. Get what, two kills a month at that rate? I'd imagine VS would start to be killed by unguilded alts, seeing as he can be done with like 12 people.

Thats one of my quibbles about a weighted system. TMO/fe/ib shouldn't be punished for going after something. Raid guilds need to raid. Most guilds arent raid guilds. Will they be in a new system? Maybe! But raid guilds do put effort in.

Time+effort=loot

This method just adds structure and cuts out anarchy in regards to assholery

[Yinikren]

And the doubling points costs is an interesting idea as well. I am liking this.

For points costs on tola, planes, drusilla, chardok royals, etc - no. Their spawn times by default means they can't be monopolized. Drusilla isn't even a raid target goobers. :p

[radditsu]

Planar guilds are raids. But not competiton. Nobody races to fear to get those darn frightfingers! Those can and should be dictated by your guild.

[Autotune]

Thats one of my quibbles about a weighted system. TMO/fe/ib shouldn't be punished for going after something. Raid guilds need to raid. Most guilds arent raid guilds. Will they be in a new system? Maybe! But raid guilds do put effort in.

Time+effort=loot

This method just adds structure and cuts out anarchy in regards to assholery

Weights aren't bad, if you aren't using them to punish people.

There is a different between adding strategy to what you choose to take out each week and adding a punishment for wanting to kill a target.

Basically, you want it so each week a guild's wants may or may not change based on what is available or what the guild's wants/needs are.

Odds are that most of the time a guild will have left over points and leaving other less wanted targets up instead of killing them for the hell of it which will give other guilds a chance to take out that target. Now add that if a target is left up for 4hours or more it becomes a free target with no cost associated.

[Tegellan]

Planar guilds are raids. But not competiton. Nobody races to fear to get those darn frightfingers! Those can and should be dictated by your guild.

I think you mean No one races ANYMORE. because guilds move on..

the problem is Velious never came out so we coudl not "Move on yet"

[Troubled]

Monthly would be wrong, weekly is the way to go.

Sky should stay the way it is, rotated and have no cost association.

VS and Trak should both have high values. VS(easy/great drops) Trak (great drops, access to VP) and both are epic mobs.

PD should have a high value, the same or higher than VS and Trak.

CT, INNY, Draco should have moderately high values. (draco that spawns with CT should be free if the guild who kills CT also kills Draco).

Kunark world dragons and VP dragons (not counting PD) should be equal value and relatively low value.

Naggy/Vox/Maestro should be the same or less than the kunark world dragons.


Raiding planes for gear will not cost anything, neither should royals.

I guess going monthly was a little overzealous. Weekly kind of promotes competition, paired with wise point spending, minus trak and VS, the main points of contention. They should NOT be monopolized by 2 entities.

-Point system seems to have the most rolling support so far.
-Rotations haven't even been mentioned have they? Because you can't know when a mob will spawn and who can really kill it in a reasonable time despite adding themselves to the list/hard to maintain I guess.
-Opting out of certain numbers of spawns after killing one is cool, but point system kinda takes care of that across the board.

I'm still looking for something to make sure that VS isn't rotated weekly between TMO and FE/IB, so a weekly point system that allows VS with multiple other spawns is kind of weak atm.

[radditsu]

Weights aren't bad, if you aren't using them to punish people.

There is a different between adding strategy to what you choose to take out each week and adding a punishment for wanting to kill a target.

Basically, you want it so each week a guild's wants may or may not change based on what is available or what the guild's wants/needs are.

Odds are that most of the time a guild will have left over points and leaving other less wanted targets up instead of killing them for the hell of it which will give other guilds a chance to take out that target. Now add that if a target is left up for 4hours or more it becomes a free target with no cost associated.


Do you think the "big raid" guilds wouldn't like the weighted method due to even less raids per month? By default I am already removing 14 raids they were getting before. I didnt want to seem COMPLETELY out of line and come from a position of "you can only do 15 of 58 boss mobs a month".

[radditsu]

I like monthly. I think it adds more gamesmanship quality. And the variance spikes would even out better.



And just because us nerds are talking about it ddoesn't mean it is getting any support by the guilds ^_^

[Yinikren]

I am sure most guilds will jump at the opportunity just to raid - if FE and TMO want to spend half of their alloted points each week on VS then that's just fewer mobs they are taking each week as a result.

[Yinikren]

This system does seem to have a lot of support - details just need to be hammered out and everyone needs to agree on how it should be run. Literally the only things it needs to get started are a raid forum to decide on points costs for mobs. We can also push for the removal or reduction of variance with we can procure enough evidence that it would no longer help the server.

[Troubled]

I like monthly. I think it adds more gamesmanship quality. And the variance spikes would even out better.



And just because us nerds are talking about it ddoesn't mean it is getting any support by the guilds ^_^

I like monthly too. Adjustment of points possibly needed. Also, rep of BDA here, "casual" nerd reporting in.

I am sure most guilds will jump at the opportunity just to raid - if FE and TMO want to spend half of their alloted points each week on VS then that's just fewer mobs they are taking each week as a result.

Not looking for scraps or what they're willing to hand out. Looking for fair server-wide opportunity amongst all raid-capable guilds.

[Ravager]

Not looking for scraps or what they're willing to hand out. Looking for fair server-wide opportunity amongst all raid-capable guilds.

Don't forget a point of entry for up and coming guilds.

[quido]

If it's a majority consensus

If you really think we're going to settle on a system that is mostly unsupported by the top three guilds, you should probably think again.

[Yinikren]

True, true. We could still do the points doubling system where targets are worth more for consecutive kills by the same guild.

Regardless, VS is a huge tax to pay for each week - VS and Trak by themselves would lock out a guild from raiding the rest of the week.

[Troubled]

True, true. We could still do the points doubling system where targets are worth more for consecutive kills by the same guild.

Regardless, VS is a huge tax to pay for each week - VS and Trak by themselves would lock out a guild from raiding the rest of the week.

Maybe they should spend their time in VP then, right? Prioritize.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

If you really think we're going to settle on a system that is mostly unsupported by the top three guilds, you should probably think again.

That's the thing. Rogean and the server don't give a shit if you support it or not. You either abide by it or get banned.

[Yinikren]

Maybe they should spend their time in VP then, right? Prioritize.

That would be the idea behind the weighted system. If they want VP keys, they are limited on loot mobs. If they want loot mobs, they might not have enough for VP dragons. If they want to clear VP, they won't have enough for any VP keys or epics.

[quido]

That's the thing. Rogean and the server don't give a shit if you support it or not. You either abide by it or get banned.

Now we have two or three groups of people acting like they are the deciding majority here, lol. I don't think this is going to play out how you think, Heallun. Everyone is open to discussion here, but once again, I think you guys are getting ahead of yourselves.

[quido]

Each guild's votes proportionate to roster - ok go!

[Troubled]

Meeting of guilds, 2 people per guild, majority rules

I don't like the majority rules thing personally. Call me paranoid, but I think guilds can be bought out. A consensus with compromises is probably what we should be aiming for.

[quido]

Not only that, but to say a guild of 5 people gets the same weight as a guild of 100 is ridiculous, no offense.

[Splorf22]

Not only that, but to say a guild of 5 people gets the same weight as a guild of 100 is ridiculous, no offense.

fear the electoral college

[quido]

I'm a white land-owning male.

[quido]

I'm curious, Jeremy, what is you contention with the proposed point plan?

Too socialist.

[falkun]

So I read the first 5 pages, then skipped the rest.

Comments on OP:
1) I'm OK with this as long as this is revised upon release of Velious. Let TMO/IB/FE circle jerk in VP until Velious release, then let the casuals in.
2) 2hr is good.
3) I have a different variation on this, see below.
4) Eh, whatever.

Rotation:
Two sets of raid mobs, "hardcore" and "casual". Split the mobs roughly 50/50:
GroupA: Nagafen, Maestro, Inny, VS, Fay, Gore
GroupB: Vox, Draco, CT, Trak, Sev, Tal
Swapping every month, one group is "hardcore" (AKA: standard FTE shit we have now, no 2hrs, full on competition), while the other group is "casual" (all our new raid rules). A guild can only belong to a SINGLE group (hardcore or casual). The hardcores are ONLY allowed to kill hardcore mobs and casuals are ONLY allowed to kill casual mobs. Likely only 2-3 guilds would be "hardcore" at a time, but the rest of the server wouldn't have to put up with their crap because they'd be after a different set of mobs.

This list would have to get expanded to remain roughly even for Velious.

Update:
If any single casual guild takes more than 25% of the casual spawns for the month, they are automatically bumped up to hardcore the next month (with rules it'd be difficult for them to get more than 50% of the spawns anyways).
Any hardcore guild taking more than 75% of the hardcore spawns for the month takes a two-week raid suspension at the beginning of the next month, before returning to hardcore.
Any guild can voluntarily bump up to hardcore at the beginning of the next month.
To drop to Casual, a Hardcore guild must kill less than 20% of the hardcore spawns for the month prior. If this means mobs are left (5% not covered by 75% and 20% rules), hardcore guilds still cannot kill them without incurring respective penalties.

Velious Expansion:
Kunark goes Casual-only upon release of Velious (including all of VP). Any guild wishing to do raid-content epics will be casual (A-team will have epics).
Ziglark is "hardcore"-only for first month of Velious, but hardcores ONLY get Skyshrine and beyond for the first two months.
After that, everything besides ST in Velious goes into "even-50/50" split between casual and hardcore groups.
ST goes into the casual/hardcore split after 6 months.

[Troubled]

Not only that, but to say a guild of 5 people gets the same weight as a guild of 100 is ridiculous, no offense.

Maybe guilds should have gone through some manner of proving themselves as well to determine their weight. It's easy to say 20 guilds can kill any mob in the current end-game but in reality only 5 or 6 are putting forth much effort.

[Joroz]

Looks like a bunch of the same bs repackaged and back on the market for sale...


simple solution

kill one, don't touch/track/mobilize/interfere/poop sock/camp out/etc... with the next two of that mob spawn. No special concessions for mobs that are not considered junk mobs.

[Troubled]

Proposing a 2 person team from the top 6 guilds to vent it out on a server of our choosing to bounce ideas. Counting FE/IB as 1 entity for fairness according to what they agreed to during these 2 weeks. TMO, FE/IB, BDA, Taken, Divinity, Azure Guard. 12people in a vent channel hashing it out? You can bet I'll be there, with interest in the guilds looking to enter the scene as well.

This gives a pretty wide spectrum and view from most angles IMO.

[Troubled]

Europa

They have not participated thus far. Are they interested in having a voice?

[Bossman]

Think one of their members or leaders said something 10 pages back lol

[Joroz]

Sounds like: TMO 1, IB/FE 2, others 3

could end up that way... maybe not. but its easy to keep track of unlike point and percent systems proposed...

[Yinikren]

I am still seeing a weighted points system as the best method for the purification of the raid scene. It helps the most people and is the easiest to police without GM interference, doesn't involve a rotation that variance fucks up, etc. The only people that are against it are those that are losing mobs over it and, lets be honest, they should have seen this coming when rogean brought the hammer down.

I think it is time to make a raid subforum and for raid guilds to nominate two people who will proceed with the delegations.

[Autotune]

Too socialist.

Only because we both know it would gear up 2-3 other guilds in raid loot within several months.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Now we have two or three groups of people acting like they are the deciding majority here, lol. I don't think this is going to play out how you think, Heallun. Everyone is open to discussion here, but once again, I think you guys are getting ahead of yourselves.

I'm just going by what I've tried to glean from Rogean. It would be silly to not take the major raiding guild's POV into perspective, but he said earlier he was looking for a majority situation...so I suppose, a majority of who ? Anyone interested in raid loot?

[quido]

I think it is time to make a raid subforum and for raid guilds to nominate two people who will proceed with the delegations.

More informal discussion is needed first.

[zanderklocke]

These threads are way too long to even consider reading. Someone should make a somewhat editable spreadsheet or document that summarizes the main points/ideas people are making. People that like those ideas could put their names next to them.

I mean trying to read 42 pages of stuff is practically laughable.

[Lammy]

This has gone too far. We went from respecting the rules set by GMs to "do you want me to just kill it for you?" The ONLY fun part about raiding 32k dragons is the competition.

[quido]

I'm just going by what I've tried to glean from Rogean. It would be silly to not take the major raiding guild's POV into perspective, but he said earlier he was looking for a majority situation...so I suppose, a majority of who ? Anyone interested in raid loot?

I think you're being purposely dense. If Rogean wanted to leave this up to a literal majority he would have defined the entities and all that. He's saying he wants us all to work together and if one or two factions aren't playing ball, then tough luck for them. I don't think he was saying that some majority faction drunk with power is going to have the final say that they will uphold.

[Autotune]

These threads are way too long to even consider reading. Someone should make a somewhat editable spreadsheet or document that summarizes the main points/ideas people are making. People that like those ideas could put their names next to them.

I mean trying to read 42 pages of stuff is practically laughable.

What mainly needs to be done is guilds going on their forums and throwing around these ideas and choosing the one that they all want to get behind and forming up a proposal on their own.

Once each guild can hash out a proposal, the guilds can then get together and rehash their proposals into one or more that the guilds can agree on and then just vote for the one they want to try. The main point is that the new system doesn't have to be set in stone, but needs to be solid enough that it will work for a few months to see what problems may or may not arise from it.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I think you're being purposely dense. If Rogean wanted to leave this up to a literal majority he would have defined the entities and all that. He's saying he wants us all to work together and if one or two factions aren't playing ball, then tough luck for them. I don't think he was saying that some majority faction drunk with power is going to have the final say that they will uphold.

You started this thread with wrong information.

I didn't read much but TLDR seems to be that player arrangements are useless because they won't be enforced by staff.

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

[Kope]

I am still seeing a weighted points system as the best method for the purification of the raid scene. It helps the most people and is the easiest to police without GM interference, doesn't involve a rotation that variance fucks up, etc. The only people that are against it are those that are losing mobs over it and, lets be honest, they should have seen this coming when rogean brought the hammer down.

I think it is time to make a raid subforum and for raid guilds to nominate two people who will proceed with the delegations.

I'm not an official representative of my guild but this is along the lines of what I'm thinking as well.

[Autotune]

The thing TMO seems to be having a hard time understanding atm is that they don't have the upperhand here in the discussion. In fact, they are at a disadvantage.

[quido]

Cool I just spearheaded 30 new raiding guilds.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

The thing TMO seems to be having a hard time understanding atm is that they don't have the upperhand here in the discussion. In fact, they are at a disadvantage.

Compared to old, TMO gonna lose some, IBFE up in the air, rest of server will gain in some amount large or small, if it's by majority of guilds as Rogean said earlier, wouldn't be surprised if we saw something rotationy, because most of the other raiding guilds don't want to put up trackers or have to log on at 3am to kill shit.

[Joroz]

Hardcore raiding on p99 breaks down to people who dedicate their lives to killing targets at all hours 24/7/265. Its not about taking on hard encounters or making them harder, the a-team would be hardest core raiders on server if that was the case; its just keeping track tallies, keeping other guilds out of zones like vp or progressing on epics. There are more than enough guilds capable and wanting to raid a mob a week maybe two, just having these talks alone is the beginning of the end for the hardcore mentality for raiders on p99. There is no reason to settle for one guild taking majority anymore, there are way to many 60's on this content.

[Kope]

Cool I just spearheaded 30 new raiding guilds.

After what Rogean has posted are you really wanting to go this route in this debate?

[Autotune]

Cool I just spearheaded 30 new raiding guilds.

good, I for one would like to see guilds split down in size. Overall, most people know that not everyone is extremely skilled in the top raiding guilds and guild splits will just lead to more competition in all the "tiered" brackets.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Cool I just spearheaded 30 new raiding guilds.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread--what constitutes a vote in this majority decision. Should probably be a weighted vote by player count but that would require a more accurate census than we can really get on p99.

[Autotune]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread--what constitutes a vote in this majority decision. Should probably be a weighted vote by player count but that would require a more accurate census than we can really get on p99.

It will obviously be established guilds that get to vote, aka, guilds that have been around for several months.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

It will obviously be established guilds that get to vote, aka, guilds that have been around for several months.

:3 Time to grab some old guild tags and fill the ranks! :P FINE STEEL LONG SWORDS, ASSEMBLE!

[Troubled]

BDA currently in favor of point-system weighed towards what I proposed. How much longer until people are ready for vent Jeremy? Don't see much going on here besides people posting without known tags.

[Autotune]

:3 Time to grab some old guild tags and fill the ranks! :P FINE STEEL LONG SWORDS, ASSEMBLE!

haha, good luck with that when you have people like Deru, sirken, etc who all deal with the server on a daily basis.

[Yinikren]

I'll make a thread when I get off of work tonight outlining the revised weighted points system I could work on. Other people with their ideas can do the same. Only pertinent thoughts to the idea posted should be said in the thread, so it doesn't get spammed to nowhere fast. This way people don't have to wade through 43 pages of discussion to find the ideas being discussed.

I encourage everyone else to make their own threads about their ideas for a fix so the conversations can be kept separate and clean.

It'll probably be a few days before we get everyone discussing things in a vent server. TMOs leader is out of town and I still want to post in my own guilds forums as well and get their input. I am not the spokesperson, I just remodeled Xastens bag idea into something that sounds good to me.

[Ravager]

I wonder if all the raiding guilds agreed that TMO shouldn't have raid mobs for 2 years, to balance the scales as it were, that Rogean would enforce that?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I realize, was being facetious =D So in real terms who does that mean?

IB, FE, TMO, AG, Taken, Europa, BDA, Div, knights who say ni, doljon...? Because I mean, people who haven't even started at a target would want to vote if a rotation is a real option. Lots of people haven't raided on this server due to the difficulty of it. With even more people trying to go for the same few targets, it'll only compound the problems for most of the guilds.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I wonder if all the raiding guilds agreed that TMO shouldn't have raid mobs for 2 years, to balance the scales as it were, that Rogean would enforce that?

I'd imagine the rules would have to be universal. But he just might :P

[Autotune]

I realize, was being facetious =D So in real terms who does that mean?

IB, FE, TMO, AG, Taken, Europa, BDA, Div, knights who say ni, doljon...? Because I mean, people who haven't even started at a target would want to vote if a rotation is a real option. Lots of people haven't raided on this server due to the difficulty of it. With even more people trying to go for the same few targets, it'll only compound the problems for most of the guilds.

What I imagine, or what I'd think the staff would do, is have a discussion with the main guilds that wish to participate. They'd all have a voice towards what system they would like to put forward. The staff and guilds would then hash out the best implementation of that system and then put it into effect.

The staff are the ones who should say which guilds do an don't have a voice in this as every guild would have their own agenda behind their reasons to include/exclude guilds.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

What I imagine, or what I'd think the staff would do, is have a discussion with the main guilds that wish to participate. They'd all have a voice towards what system they would like to put forward. The staff and guilds would then hash out the best implementation of that system and then put it into effect.

The staff are the ones who should say which guilds do an don't have a voice in this as every guild would have their own agenda behind their reasons to include/exclude guilds.

Mm hmm. I'm just trying to figure out where the balance would lie if a vote of all available options were taken depending on who was brought to the table. Certainly less hectic than it is now, but how much so? It's all just conjecture, but it does make me wonder.

[Autotune]

I'd hope that the staff/rogean wouldn't say raid guilds and then only include the well established raid guilds when they want to effectively make the raid scene available to everyone. The biased top enders will only look out for themselves while throwing a bone to the people who aren't tagged with them and the ones at the bottom will want the top guys to cut their right arm, left leg, and both nuts off to satisfy their thirst.


aka, need a good representation from the top, middle, and bottom or you need to just include everyone.

[quido]

Let's talk meeting in another couple days. So many people are still out of town for the holidays (myself included) and consequently haven't given this the attention it deserves.

[Magicant]

We would be more than happy to talk/discuss with any of the guild leaders about the issues in the raid scene moving forward. If you would like to use our vent I would be more than happy to facilitate it. If you would like this you can PM me or tell me in game, just ask any IB member if I am on. There is no yelling or childish acting however and it will be limited to ~2 members that have authority to make decisions for their guild.

I would prefer the server staff be involved if they are going to be enforcing this. I think in order to support so many guilds in this community the staff would need to join us to discuss changing the mob spawn mechanics (IE repops, lowers variance etc)

Please create a private forum and give access to only the leadership so the staff can weigh in and we can have a discussion. I do not believe these 50 page public threads are productive.

I am currently unsure regarding who the leadership of the TMO organization currently is. I got 5 different answers from their members when just asking randomly.

Swarws

[Troubled]

Let's talk meeting in another couple days. So many people are still out of town for the holidays (myself included) and consequently haven't given this the attention it deserves.

Fair enough. Until then, we'll continue to confine and refine ideas.

[kotton05]

I'm reading each post for ideas, just know we all hold a part in this. For clarification FE is their own guild and IB is their own guild.

All things aside at the moment it's taken bda FE IB and TMO in my opinion who have the most say. Sloan has already spoken with what he came up with, all but TMO has experienced the guideline were trying to follow. If any guild has any ideAs please PM me and I'll help make a final post where the public can see all the collected ideas from each guild in one post

If you pm me tell me what guild you're from if I don't already know plZ

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I'd hope that the staff/rogean wouldn't say raid guilds and then only include the well established raid guilds when they want to effectively make the raid scene available to everyone. The biased top enders will only look out for themselves while throwing a bone to the people who aren't tagged with them and the ones at the bottom will want the top guys to cut their right arm, left leg, and both nuts off to satisfy their thirst.


aka, need a good representation from the top, middle, and bottom or you need to just include everyone.

But the bottom is so much bigger than the top. If it's a majority, the top will topple.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I'm reading each post for ideas, just know we all hold a part in this. For clarification FE is their own guild and IB is their own guild.

All things aside at the moment it's taken bda FE IB and TMO in my opinion who have the most say. Sloan has already spoken with what he came up with, all but TMO has experienced the guideline were trying to follow. If any guild has any ideAs please PM me and I'll help make a final post where the public can see all the collected ideas from each guild in one post

If you pm me tell me what guild you're from if I don't already know plZ

Divinity, Europa would also raid if targets were available. I'm also sure that smaller guilds would band together if they had an opportunity to kill mobs during primetime during a set time (i. e., log in at 6pm and kill whatever spawned the night previous).

[Yinikren]

TMO, IBFE because they raid together, BDA, Taken, Divinity, Azure Guard, A team, Europa, just off the top of my head. Bob guild hasn't been around long enough.

[baramur]

You cannot create a system that makes lower tier guilds have equal loot rights as upper tier guilds. TMO as much as i despise them, and IB/FE as much as they are starting to be despised, put in alot more effort to get raid mobs then other guilds. Why should their hard work not be rewarded. Personally the system should be 75-80% competition and only 20-25% rotation/point based/whatever. How bout simplifying it to just no guild can kill more then 40% of raid point tiered system. For example.

PD 40pts x 4 spawn month= 160 points
Trak 30pts x 10 spawn= 300 points
VS 25 pts x 4 spawn = 100 points
CT 25 pts x 4 spawn = 100 points
Inny 20 pts x 4 spawn = 100points
Gore/Sev/Fay/Tal 20pts x 16 spawns = 320 points
VP dragons(not including pd) 20pts x 20spawn= 400 points.
Draco 15 pts x 10 spawns = 150points
Maestro 15 pts x 10 spawns = 150 points

Points would need tweaked for higher end to be alot more points then lower end was just an outline. PD be more like 60 trak more like 50 for example.

Total 1880 Average points per month in raid mobs. Any guild can kill combined value up to 1880 x .4 = roughly 750 pts per month. This means if even the top 2 guilds max out theres still 20 percent raid content open to the lower level guilds. The 2 top guilds will be fighting each other on the higher end mobs automatically and not wanting to lock themselves out of a pd or trak, which will free up alot of world content. But asking the top 2 guilds that have busted their ass to leave over 50 percent raid content free now, is ridiculous, there has to be some effort involved.

[quido]

Personally the system should be 75-80% competition and only 20-25% rotation/point based/whatever.

Shut up with this nonsense you fool - we have a majority faction chomping at the bit to maximize their own interests and you shan't stand in their way!

[Troubled]

Shut up with this nonsense you fool - we have a majority faction chomping at the bit to maximize their own interests and you shan't stand in their way!

He was tongue in cheek, but he's right regardless.

[reborn649]

Posted this on another thread, but posting it here as well:

I played on VZ a couple years and anytime something spawned, it was an all out war to get first dibs. After a bunch of friends decided to go blue, i tagged along and it was all about who could get to what mob first and down it. We want classic, that's as classic as you can get. A rotation is no different than raid instances in WoW and earning enough points to down XYZ mob next week is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You guys wanted classic EQ and everything your arguing is not viable on a blue server. Go PvP if you wanna stop guilds from killing XYZ mob. If that doesn't sound fun, then figure out a different way to compete.

My point is, we all quit so many MMO's (for most probably WoW), because they became to easy and felt like a handout. At what point do you stop and realize we might be doing the same thing on P99 if end game competition is removed? Mobs like VS/Trak/CT/VP were always super competitive. Could "higher end guilds" back off of Talendor/Fay/Gore/Etc...that makes sense. But don't take all the competition out of the game or were back to easy mode, which will only keep things fun for so long. If you don't believe me, why aren't you still playing the last 10 MMO's you tried out?

We cant love EQ because its hard and then complain its hard down the road...no matter what is making it difficult at the time. Guilds, disagreements with camps, cant get X npc to spawn after camping it 24hrs straight, etc...

[Troubled]

Posted this on another thread, but posting it here as well:

I played on VZ a couple years and anytime something spawned, it was an all out war to get first dibs. After a bunch of friends decided to go blue, i tagged along and it was all about who could get to what mob first and down it. We want classic, that's as classic as you can get. A rotation is no different than raid instances in WoW and earning enough points to down XYZ mob next week is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You guys wanted classic EQ and everything your arguing is not viable on a blue server. Go PvP if you wanna stop guilds from killing XYZ mob. If that doesn't sound fun, then figure out a different way to compete.

My point is, we all quit so many MMO's (for most probably WoW), because they became to easy and felt like a handout. At what point do you stop and realize we might be doing the same thing on P99 if end game competition is removed? Mobs like VS/Trak/CT/VP were always super competitive. Could "higher end guilds" back off of Talendor/Fay/Gore/Etc...that makes sense. But don't take all the competition out of the game or were back to easy mode, which will only keep things fun for so long. If you don't believe me, why aren't you still playing the last 10 MMO's you tried out?

We cant love EQ because its hard and then complain its hard down the road...no matter what is making it difficult at the time. Guilds, disagreements with camps, cant get X npc to spawn after camping it 24hrs straight, etc...


Don't kill mobs then if that's what makes eq hard or "classic" for you. Most of us want to experience things we did or didn't do on live, and are getting super impeded by the few that think we should be competing 10x harder than we did on live to experinece it.

[quido]

killing mobs != killing mobs as much as the neckbeards

[Troubled]

killing mobs != killing mobs as much as the neckbeards

The neckbeards have had their day though, no? Lets make some other people happy here.

[quido]

Everyone seems willing to play ball on significantly increasing the non-neckbeard share. Increasing it to the point of equal, though, is absurd.

[Alarti0001]

Everyone seems willing to play ball on significantly increasing the non-neckbeard share. Increasing it to the point of equal, though, is absurd.

But they've earned it!... oh wait.

[Yinikren]

You talk about this equality thing like we are beneath you.

Drafting my ideas for a weighted points based raiding system now.

[Kope]

But they've earned it!... oh wait.

This is the type of talk that got you in this mess, cut it out, seriously. We're trying to discuss things like adults, not throwing backhanded insults out.

[Troubled]

But they've earned it!... oh wait.

Yea. Basically, by coming to play this old ass game and be concerned with killing dragons, it's been earned. Take a step back.

[reborn649]

Don't kill mobs then if that's what makes eq hard or "classic" for you. Most of us want to experience things we did or didn't do on live, and are getting super impeded by the few that think we should be competing 10x harder than we did on live to experinece it.

So competition on live for raid mobs didn't happen on live for you? I highly doubt that's the case...

[Alarti0001]

This is the type of talk that got you in this mess, cut it out, seriously. We're trying to discuss things like adults, not throwing backhanded insults out.

I put out my suggestion, I think its a good one. But it is asinine to think every raid guild will get an equal share of kills. That puts 0 incentive on competition.

[Troubled]

So competition on live for raid mobs didn't happen on live for you? I highly doubt that's the case...

The competition is over. Time to share for the benefit of the entire server. What's called competition now is nothing like what anyone experienced on live. You know it. Stop. These people don't need to continue gearing. If TMO never killed a mob until velious out of protest, they'd all be back and gunning for and get most server firsts when SoV was dropped. I'd say 2 years worth of gear is enough of a head start to give everyone else starting now a real shot at getting some kills.

[Kope]

I put out my suggestion, I think its a good one. But it is asinine to think every raid guild will get an equal share of kills. That puts 0 incentive on competition.

Then be constructive, not backhanded, you're not doing yourself any favors by not acting constructively.

[quido]

You talk about this equality thing like we are beneath you.

Nobody is genuinely denigrating people for not caring as much about mobs, but the system needs to account for the efforts of the hardcore more than what you're proposing.

[Alarti0001]

The competition is over. Time to share.

When you went to school did your teachers give you Straight A's on the result of you signing up for a class?

[quido]

The competition is over. Time to share. What's called competition now is nothing like what anyone experienced on live. You know it. Stop.

Sorry for not wanting to share as much as you would like, but I think we're being pretty reasonable. Furthermore, live had how many servers? We have one. You can't expect to relive exactly what you experienced on live under those conditions.

[Alarti0001]

Then be constructive, not backhanded, you're not doing yourself any favors by not acting constructively.

Volcano's are both constructive and destructive... Sometimes you need to tear shit down to rebuild it. Its the same for faulty thinking.

[Kope]

Volcano's are both constructive and destructive... Sometimes you need to tear shit down to rebuild it. Its the same for faulty thinking.

That's a great analogy, but you're not a volcano, and we're currently working on rebuilding an already destroyed town (raidscene).

[Yinikren]

The efforts of the hardcore will go into competing for higher value mobs based on what your guild currently needs.

You guys talk about this like it is a numbers game. It never was and never will be. People couldn't care less how many dragons you kill if another guild gets a CT for an unfinished epic. This system helps enable that, you guys just don't like hearing it.

[Alarti0001]

That's a great analogy, but you're not a volcano, and we're currently working on rebuilding an already destroyed town (raidscene).

I'm pouring mental magma into your brain cage right now.
Town isn't destroyed in the slightest. Just need to revitalize the ghetto.

[Troubled]

When you went to school did your teachers give you Straight A's on the result of you signing up for a class?

Unrelated. Post moar.

Sorry for not wanting to share as much as you would like, but I think we're being pretty reasonable. Furthermore, live had how many servers? We have one. You can't expect to relive exactly what you experienced on live under those conditions.

You only think you're being reasonable because of your track record. That doesn't give you any leverage(or disadvantage.) Try treating everyone like equal human beings here. I play here much more hardcore than I did on live and I was in one of the 3 guilds that did VP on the reg on my server. Here? Scrub/casual scum apparently.

[quido]

90% of this thread is Alarti and Jeremy telling us how no one other than them deserve to see raid mobs.

Look, we know you're fucking retarded already, but please stop putting words into my mouth; I have said nothing of this sort. I have repeatedly stated that I/we are willing to play ball and are looking to significantly increase the share of the casuals. However, an even split is preposterous and you know it.

[Alarti0001]

Need more input from AG, Taken, Europa, Div, knights who say ni, doljon, ect.

90% of this thread is Alarti and Jeremy telling us how no one other than them deserve to see raid mobs.

I'm willing to bet there is significantly less than 432 posts combined my me and Jeremy.

Seems like another one of your statistics just got DEBUNKED!

[Alarti0001]

Unrelated. Post moar.

It is absolutely related. Grades should be effort based and reflect your ability and the time your put it. Same goes for raids.

You only think you're being reasonable because of your track record. That doesn't give you any leverage(or disadvantage.) Try treating everyone like equal human beings here. I play here much more hardcore than I did on live and I was in one of the 3 guilds that did VP on the reg on my server. Here? Scrub/casual scum apparently.

[Troubled]

However, an even split is preposterous and you know it.

You know it's not, you're just fighting it. An even split still puts you ahead by 2 years out of 2 years and 3* months.

*subject to change

[quido]

You only think you're being reasonable because of your track record. That doesn't give you any leverage(or disadvantage.) Try treating everyone like equal human beings here. I play here much more hardcore than I did on live and I was in one of the 3 guilds that did VP on the reg on my server. Here? Scrub/casual scum apparently.

That is a perfect testament to how different from live this place actually is demographically. I wouldn't really know considering I never played live, but I'm pretty sure the fact that p99 is top-heavy is inherently unavoidable due to there not being the option to switch servers.

[quido]

You know it's not, you're just fighting it. An even split still puts you ahead by 2 years out of 2 years and 3* months.

*subject to change

People try to act like nobody ever got a mob since TMO was formed.

Keep fighting for an even split and see where it gets you.

[Troubled]

It is absolutely related. Grades should be effort based and reflect your ability and the time your put it. Same goes for raids.

That's like saying if I wanted to help my son with 5th grade math, in order for him to pass we should be doing trig. So yes, unrelated. Stop using bad analogies.

[Troubled]

People try to act like nobody ever got a mob since TMO was formed.

Keep fighting for an even split and see where it gets you.

Keep fighting for TMO and FEIB to take most of the raid scene over more and see where it gets you. Our chat shouldn't have devolved into this. Are you ready to continue real discussions?

[quido]

So let's meet in the middle somewhere eh? I'm willing to negotiate. You seem to only want to have it your way.

[Yinikren]

Your negotions are a mob for one guild every 5-6 attempts. Try fitting 5 more in.

[Bossman]

It wouldn't be everybody had an even shot consider there are really only two guilds that are VP capable (the loot that is still relevant to you). Stop trying to loot whore and block epics

[Troubled]

So let's meet in the middle somewhere eh? I'm willing to negotiate. You seem to only want to have it your way.

I proposed what I thought of the point system a while back. Do you have any tweaks, suggestions, or thoughts to bounce against it? I think the point system is the way to go, but it needs weighed correctly and I'm sure my voice won't be the only deciding factor in that. That is a favorable system by any party given the right numbers. KEEP IN MIND, there are roughly 6 capable guilds and 1 guild taking half the highly contested spawns means #2 guild takes the other half and that's not what we're trying to do here, and that's why I weighed points like I did. I can quote it if you wish for tweaking.

[Bossman]

Lower the point requirement for VP dragons, don't issue different point totals to each guild

[quido]

Do people actually read what is said? I'm having words put into my mouth for the third time in the last little while.

I'm starting to think this open discussion is pointless. I'm looking forward to discussing the issues with actual guild leaderships in a closed setting.

If you want to criticize anything I've suggested, make sure I actually said it. If you don't like the figures, come up with a counter-offer. Most of what's being said here is rhetoric.

[Retti_]

http://i.minus.com/iVj7LtIHvRily.gif

[Kope]

Maybe the main posters in here should cool down for a few days, you guys have made your points clear and it's not helping to rehash the same points over and over and devolving the discussion.

This isn't about the top, or the bottom, this is about the community of p99 coming to a non toxic consensus about how to do the raidscene.

I know Divinity is currently working on their official response, and I assume the other smaller guilds are doing the same.

If we keep diluting this discussion down with the same posts over and over it's not going to be as constructive as it should be.

Please give everyone a chance to add their opinions into it so we can come to a generalized and liked consensus, not only the hardcore and not only the casuals.

[quido]

I proposed what I thought of the point system a while back. Do you have any tweaks, suggestions, or thoughts to bounce against it? I think the point system is the way to go, but it needs weighed correctly and I'm sure my voice won't be the only deciding factor in that. That is a favorable system by any party given the right numbers. KEEP IN MIND, there are roughly 6 capable guilds and 1 guild taking half the highly contested spawns means #2 guild takes the other half and that's not what we're trying to do here, and that's why I weighed points like I did. I can quote it if you wish for tweaking.

Sure - I'd like the point system to only apply sometimes. Really I don't want points at all. I'd like to see the hardcores fight it out a fraction of the time and the nonhardcores rotate it or point it out the other fraction of the time with a provision for the hardcores getting it should whatever be left up for too long.

Would you care to tweak my system?

[Troubled]

Do people actually read what is said? I'm having words put into my mouth for the third time in the last little while.

I'm starting to think this open discussion is pointless. I'm looking forward to discussing the issues with actual guild leaderships in a closed setting.

If you want to criticize anything I've suggested, make sure I actually said it. If you don't like the figures, come up with a counter-offer. Most of what's being said here is rhetoric.

If that's directed at me, I'm sorry if you think I'm putting words into your mouth. Please repost what you actually said, concisely. And you can bet I'll be there in a closed setting as well.

[toosweet]

You need to keep this simple.
point systems-raid dates-non raid weeks-full rotations are just messy and to much to deal with.

The 2 hour thing seems to work well, add in the pnp when 2 guilds get to a boss at the same time and things will be ok on p99
Guilds who do a little work with some tracking will be rewarded with a shot at bosses for their effort, I dont think any raid guild wants welfare loot do they?

Keep it simple...too many chefs spoil the soup

[Troubled]

Sure - I'd like the point system to only apply sometimes. Really I don't want points at all. I'd like to see the hardcores fight it out a fraction of the time and the nonhardcores rotate it or point it out the other fraction of the time with a provision for the hardcores getting it should whatever be left up for too long.

Would you care to tweak my system?

Not an exact system that I want to see. It really does have to be laid out for all. Please continue with full proposal.

[quido]

If that's directed at me

So far it's only been directed towards Yendor, Anthrax, and Yinikren. Just to clear that up.

[Troubled]

You need to keep this simple.
point systems-raid dates-non raid weeks-full rotations are just messy and to much to deal with.

The 2 hour thing seems to work well, add in the pnp when 2 guilds get to a boss at the same time and things will be ok on p99
Guilds who do a little work with some tracking will be rewarded with a shot at bosses for their effort, I dont think any raid guild wants welfare loot do they?

Keep it simple...too many chefs spoil the soup

Leads to 2 guild rotation. Not good for anyone but 2 guilds. Soup's for all. Everyone's hungry. Point system can work. Not that difficult to keep track of. Not very messy. It's gained plenty of momentum. Let's run with it and see what we can get as an end result.

[quido]

Not an exact system that I want to see. It really does have to be laid out for all. Please continue with full proposal.

I'd hate to butt into the affairs of the nonhardcores and try to dictate how they split up their share. As far as the size of the fractions, that much is up for discussion. There's really not much else than that aside from disallowing people from flipping between the hardcore and nonhardcore pools.

If you want exact figures, I'll have to get back to you after garnering input from my fellow guildmates.

[Troubled]

I'd hate to butt into the affairs of the nonhardcores and try to dictate how they split up their share. As far as the size of the fractions, that much is up for discussion. There's really not much else than that aside from disallowing people from flipping between the hardcore and nonhardcore pools.

If you want exact figures, I'll have to get back to you after garnering input from my fellow guildmates.

Sure, bounce it off your buddies. As it stands, I don't think most guilds outside FE/IB and TMO are going for a Trak/VS/CT FFA as it impedes epic and VP progress in the worst way at this point. There has to be a line drawn where the 'hardcores' stop for a second and the 'casuals' get a slice of that pie, and I hope you'll consider that. Also consider, BDA has a force ready in VP since the FFA-train-all-day days are over and will be using points/shares/whatever on that as well.

[Alarti0001]

You know it's not, you're just fighting it. An even split still puts you ahead by 2 years out of 2 years and 3* months.

*subject to change

So? We earned that time. You have every opportunity to compete with us.

[Troubled]

So? We earned that time. You have every opportunity to compete with us.

We didn't. You won out for that long. Grats. Act like a human.

[baramur]

Expecting TMO and FE/IB to just roll over and offer up equal shares of mobs they have worked hard to get to, or spend the time parking and tracking is just utter stupidity. Now asking these 2 guilds to share a portion and give every other guild a chance to kill these mobs is perfectly acceptable. Just simplify it hugely and say 1st week of month fe/ib and Tmo will not raid, with exception to VP. Every other week its game on. If TMO/FE/IB want to agree to share others in the other 3 weeks they can talk amongst themselves and do so.

You act like guilds are ENTITLED to EQUAL shares of loot, with LESS effort put forth. And to me this just does not equate.

THIS equates to a 25 percent open mobs outside vp for every guild besides the top 2 on server. During this week the other guilds could set a limit so that no 3rd guild like BDA or Taken monopolizes the content. Seriously this is the simplest way to do it, its easy to say 1st through 8th of every month tmo/fe/ib are on raid break outside vp.

[Autotune]

putting guilds into hardcore and softcore is a temp patch and everyone knows it. It leaves no room for guilds to bridge the gap. It's no different that what TMO has suggested before, "We leave mobs up and as long as our 'competition' doesn't mess with it then we are okay with it."

Everyone should be on equal footing whenever they want to be, the only limit should be to make sure no guild can monopolize the raid targets.

[quido]

There has to be a line drawn where the 'hardcores' stop for a second and the 'casuals' get a slice of that pie, and I hope you'll consider that.

That's exactly what I was suggesting - I thought it was obvious.

Also consider, BDA has a force ready in VP since the FFA-train-all-day days are over and will be using points/shares/whatever on that as well.

Especially considering that only 3 or 4 guilds are keyed for VP, and the fact that VP is the end-all Kunark raid zone, I don't realistically see there being a provision for rotation/points on VP mobs. Come race imo - I don't think competing on just VP should exclude you from being in the nonhardcore pool otherwise if that's what you want.

[quido]

putting guilds into hardcore and softcore is a temp patch and everyone knows it. It leaves no room for guilds to bridge the gap. It's no different that what TMO has suggested before, "We leave mobs up and as long as our 'competition' doesn't mess with it then we are okay with it."

Everyone should be on equal footing whenever they want to be, the only limit should be to make sure no guild can monopolize the raid targets.

I disagree - I think a hybrid system is the most straightforward system and accounts for the greatest number of playstyles.

[Troubled]

Expecting TMO and FE/IB to just roll over and offer up equal shares of mobs they have worked hard to get to, or spend the time parking and tracking is just utter stupidity. Now asking these 2 guilds to share a portion and give every other guild a chance to kill these mobs is perfectly acceptable. Just simplify it hugely and say 1st week of month fe/ib and Tmo will not raid, with exception to VP. Every other week its game on. If TMO/FE/IB want to agree to share others in the other 3 weeks they can talk amongst themselves and do so.

You act like guilds are ENTITLED to EQUAL shares of loot, with LESS effort put forth. And to me this just does not equate.

Maybe they don't need to put forth as much effort then. No one's trying to make them log in at 5am for a loot, unlike the flip side.

[Troubled]

That's exactly what I was suggesting - I thought it was obvious.



Especially considering that only 3 or 4 guilds are keyed for VP, and the fact that VP is the end-all Kunark raid zone, I don't realistically see there being a provision for rotation/points on VP mobs. Come race imo - I don't think competing on just VP should exclude you from being in the nonhardcore pool otherwise if that's what you want.

Sorry man, I don't remember seeing a clear post on what you're getting at.

Not asking for a rotation on VP mobs but a SLIGHT point cost to SOMEWHAT deter VP capable guilds that kill those dragons from competing on _some level_ with the rest of the server on mobs that they want to kill. These guilds have access to 50% more dragons than non VP capable guilds and it should show in at least some way. I know a complete FFA VP has been advocated, but we think VP kills should definitely be weighed to some degree. My constituents think it should be weighed WAY more heavily than I do, but I just want to see it as some sort of deterrent to stop the slaying of maybe 1 or 2 mobs a month.

Jeremy, I think we can be on the same page with some work.

[Autotune]

I disagree - I think a hybrid system is the most straightforward system and accounts for the greatest number of playstyles.

The only way a hybrid system will work, is if the Hardcores and the Casuals share 50/50 piece of the pie.

1 week, casuals raid, the next hardcores.

You can't cut a pie differently and label it fair.

[Stefen]

The entire point of this server is for it to be a classic EQ experience. That's why everyone started playing here. There's nothing 'classic' about forced rotations. The main difference between EQ and other MMOs is that raid content isn't instanced, it's competed for.

Honestly, if you want raid mobs handed to you every week, that's cool and understandable. There are dozens of other games built for players like you- please stop trying to turn this MMO into something it was never meant to be. Competition is what makes this game so preferable.

[Troubled]

The entire point of this server is for it to be a classic EQ experience. That's why everyone started playing here. There's nothing 'classic' about forced rotations. The main difference between EQ and other MMOs is that raid content isn't instanced, it's competed for.

Honestly, if you want raid mobs handed to you every week, that's cool and understandable. There are dozens of other games built for players like you- please stop trying to turn this MMO into something it was never meant to be. Competition is what makes this game so preferable.

Kinda past that atm. Competition on P99 is severe and equates to many potential donors quitting and not playing.

[Kope]

I disagree - I think a hybrid system is the most straightforward system and accounts for the greatest number of playstyles.

Divinity is considering proposing something like this Jer. I'm honestly asking you guys give guilds time to hash out their opinions and ideas to be able to present them fully.

[baramur]

People are under the impression that IB/FE do not need loot of anything but vp dragons or something. Most need to realize 90 percent of vp loot is shit or just visual. Ya a few weapons that upgrade maybe a shield here and there or a clicky, but for the most part VP comes down to 3 or 4 items in all that are worth the whole effort. Many main charecters stlil missing VS legs, Wiz missing epics, sk's missing epics, mages missing epics, etc. FE as a guild is really trying to push for less of a monopoly and more of a chance for other guilds to get to raid high end content, but i don't see us agreeing to something that gives those guilds in the past year, while we bashed our heads against the wall competing, equal chances at raid loot. You should have to work for raid mobs, else why not just cry for istance raid mobs and give everyone spawn tokens and turn it into world of warcraft. Hey lets give everyone mercs to and multiple crypt camps where the named always spawn.

[Stefen]

Competition in EQ has always been severe. That's my point, man- you want to play EQ? That's how the game has always been. I certainly agree that guilds can be competitive without being dicks, and I'd never advocate farming unneeded content just to cockblock. Beyond that, though, if you played EQ on live, you knew what you were signing up for when you rolled a toon here: the right to COMPETE for content, not to have content handed to you. That has ALWAYS been the essence of EQ, and the ability to distinguish yourself from other players and guilds through skill and teamwork is what made this game so memorable. I think you're trying to change the rules of EQ 14+ years too late.

[quido]

I'm all for giving people some raid mobs (even way more than what was given up before) in an attempt to emulate the aspect of classic that includes people being spread out across a dozen servers, but the game needs to remain competitive.

Divinity is considering proposing something like this Jer. I'm honestly asking you guys give guilds time to hash out their opinions and ideas to be able to present them fully.

Cool, I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have.

[Troubled]

Competition in EQ has always been severe. That's my point, man- you want to play EQ? That's how the game has always been. I certainly agree that guilds can be competitive without being dicks, and I'd never advocate farming unneeded content just to cockblock. Beyond that, though, if you played EQ on live, you knew what you were signing up for when you rolled a toon here: the right to COMPETE for content, not to have content handed to you. That has ALWAYS been the essence of EQ, and the ability to distinguish yourself from other players and guilds through skill and teamwork is what made this game so memorable. I think you're trying to change the rules of EQ 14+ years too late.

Nothing constructive. Wrong conversation for you to have here. That ship has sailed.

People are under the impression that IB/FE do not need loot of anything but vp dragons or something. Most need to realize 90 percent of vp loot is shit or just visual. Ya a few weapons that upgrade maybe a shield here and there or a clicky, but for the most part VP comes down to 3 or 4 items in all that are worth the whole effort. Many main charecters stlil missing VS legs, Wiz missing epics, sk's missing epics, mages missing epics, etc. FE as a guild is really trying to push for less of a monopoly and more of a chance for other guilds to get to raid high end content, but i don't see us agreeing to something that gives those guilds in the past year, while we bashed our heads against the wall competing, equal chances at raid loot. You should have to work for raid mobs, else why not just cry for istance raid mobs and give everyone spawn tokens and turn it into world of warcraft. Hey lets give everyone mercs to and multiple crypt camps where the named always spawn.

The only thing to say here is, don't spend points in VP then if it's not worth it. Otherwise, refer to the reply to the person above. FE wasn't pushing for shit besides their own loot as demonstrated when any non-TMO guild contested them in the past. You acted the same as if you were vs. people that have been destroying epics for 2 years. You are not white knights fighting to let the people of the server breathe. But we're trying to move past that. Get up to speed.

[baramur]

Could just go something ultra simple but i doubt you could get TMO/FE/IB to agree but never know.

7 day spawn = Can kill 1 of each/month
3 day spawn = can kill 3 if each/month
VP Dragons = 18combined/month

Ensures atleast 4 guilds will kill all outside vp. If any mob is up over 24 hours it becomes full race.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I'm all for giving people some raid mobs (even way more than what was given up before) in an attempt to emulate the aspect of classic that includes people being spread out across a dozen servers, but the game needs to remain competitive.

If we can convince the staff to implement repops we can have them "protected" in an appropriate manner (bag limits, off-limits to hardcores, whatever) while leaving the server open to a highly competitive atmosphere of tracking and batphoning the other times.

Alternatively, no-hardcore raiding the first 7 days a month is acceptable, though I can see the lower tier guilds tracking and batphoning late night on occasion which prevents the truly casual from seeing the raid content.

Both systems are self-regulating and require little to no oversight. Keeping the system simple and efficient is extremely important.

[Tasslehofp99]

Yeah, I guess 2 hours is a bit long.
What if it was a rule like no guild can kill 2/3 consecutive spawns of one mob?

For example TMO kills trak, sits out next one. Fe/IB kills trak next spawn, sits out next one. Now neither FE/IB or TMO can raid the next trak(3rd spawn, 2 since TMO last killed,) he spawns and whoever is capable goes and kills it. That is 3 trakanons, on the 4th TMO would then be eligible to partake...then the 5th FE/IB could go again.


Well after I typed that up it sounded more like a rotation than I originally imagined, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

Repost from other thread....sigh...

[baramur]

Yeah, I guess 2 hours is a bit long.
What if it was a rule like no guild can kill 2/3 consecutive spawns of one mob?

For example TMO kills trak, sits out next one. Fe/IB kills trak next spawn, sits out next one. Now neither FE/IB or TMO can raid the next trak(3rd spawn, 2 since TMO last killed,) he spawns and whoever is capable goes and kills it. That is 3 trakanons, on the 4th TMO would then be eligible to partake...then the 5th FE/IB could go again.


Well after I typed that up it sounded more like a rotation than I originally imagined, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

Repost from other thread....sigh...

Problem is this is just a IB/FE, TMO, 3rd guild rotation.

[Troubled]

Yeah, I guess 2 hours is a bit long.
What if it was a rule like no guild can kill 2/3 consecutive spawns of one mob?

For example TMO kills trak, sits out next one. Fe/IB kills trak next spawn, sits out next one. Now neither FE/IB or TMO can raid the next trak(3rd spawn, 2 since TMO last killed,) he spawns and whoever is capable goes and kills it. That is 3 trakanons, on the 4th TMO would then be eligible to partake...then the 5th FE/IB could go again.


Well after I typed that up it sounded more like a rotation than I originally imagined, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

Repost from other thread....sigh...

Yea dude bad idea. You've been white knighting against TMO for a while and that just looks like you're looking to join in the loot bonanza with them.

[Joroz]

You cannot create a system that makes lower tier guilds have equal loot rights as upper tier guilds.

It doesn't matter how much time people WANT to put in... this discussion is being brought up on how to fix the raid scene for EVERYONE and not just the 2 top guilds... whatever solution is agreed on should be equal for all guilds that raid and allow for new guilds to be coming up... No one gives a shit if someone wants to put 1000 hours in or 1 hour in, if they show up they should have the same shot as anyone. This agreement needs to address passing of recently killed mobs on to other raiders and not just passing them back and forth between guilds that keep throwing around they are at the top guilds... wtf that really means.

[baramur]

Yea dude bad idea. You've been white knighting against TMO for a while and that just looks like you're looking to join in the loot bonanza with them.

Troubled you really need to stop trying to bitch slap FE/IB with trying to loot whore. You do understand this raid change will cause FE/IB to lose more loot then gain, yet alot of us are pushing for more mobs to free up. Look at the last week of whokilledit, if FE/IB wanted to be dicks they coulda locked down almost all the kills, so stop being a dick and get back to the point.

[Troubled]

Troubled you really need to stop trying to bitch slap FE/IB with trying to loot whore. You do understand this raid change will cause FE/IB to lose more loot then gain, yet alot of us are pushing for more mobs to free up. Look at the last week of whokilledit, if FE/IB wanted to be dicks they coulda locked down almost all the kills, so stop being a dick and get back to the point.

I didn't generalize everyone when I was talking to Tassle, so back off. I also think he can construct a better idea than that, and encourage him to do so.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It doesn't matter how much time people WANT to put in... this discussion is being brought up on how to fix the raid scene for EVERYONE and not just the 2 top guilds... whatever solution is agreed on should be equal for all guilds that raid and allow for new guilds to be coming up... No one gives a shit if someone wants to put 1000 hours in or 1 hour in, if they show up they should have the same shot as anyone. This agreement needs to address passing of recently killed mobs on to other raiders and not just passing them back and forth between guilds that keep throwing around they are at the top guilds... wtf that really means.

Equitable sharing != Equal Sharing

It is reasonable to expect some ability to meaningfully participate in the endgame as a casual. Say, one repop every few weeks. Or, perhaps 7 days of no raiding from the hardcores.

It is just as reasonable for a dedicated group to expect greater returns from their greater investment.

Whatever scheme is adopted should be equitable. Equal sharing of raid mobs is a bandaid that does not address the core issue, nor does it respect the logic of both sides.

[baramur]

It doesn't matter how much time people WANT to put in... this discussion is being brought up on how to fix the raid scene for EVERYONE and not just the 2 top guilds... whatever solution is agreed on should be equal for all guilds that raid and allow for new guilds to be coming up... No one gives a shit if someone wants to put 1000 hours in or 1 hour in, if they show up they should have the same shot as anyone. This agreement needs to address passing of recently killed mobs on to other raiders and not just passing them back and forth between guilds that keep throwing around they are at the top guilds... wtf that really means.

Your right, everyone should start at 60 with epics and full planar gear. Seriously EQ was never meant for the log on for 1 hour and kill a raid mob scene. Hey i agree everyone should have a chance to enjoy the end boss mobs, but not to the effect everyone has an equal share. IF thats what you want, join live now and have fun with the instanced raids.

[Tasslehofp99]

Problem is this is just a IB/FE, TMO, 3rd guild rotation.

Not necessarily because any given week TMO, FE/IB, BDA (3 biggest groups of raiders) will be removed from potentially a lot of mobs. This way encourages guilds to put in some effort, as well as maintains the competition. There will likely be 1 trak spawn out of every 3 that TMO&FE/IB will be exempt from, this makes it a lot more likely for smaller guilds to compete. Lets say next week TMO comes back and kills trak, CT, Inny, sev, tal....the next 2 times each of these mobs spawn TMO would agree (hypothetically) to sit out.

Then lets say FE/IB kill those same 5 mobs next spawn, the rest of the guilds have a week of those spawns without TMO OR FE/IB. I can also see having the top raid guilds sit out a week every month from non VP spawns, but I've seen certain mobs go 14 days (sev on numerous occasions) without spawning thanks to extended variance.

[quido]

I wish we could throw full repops into the discussion, but without definite word from the staff that they're going to happen, it's kind of pointless.

Please Rogean, give us regular (not even frequent) full repops. Shit's classic bros.

[Tasslehofp99]

I would be curious to see the outcome of simulated repops now that VP is train free.

I think that it would open up a lot of opportunities to spread loot around between more guilds.

[Joroz]

Equitable sharing != Equal Sharing

It is reasonable to expect some ability to meaningfully participate in the endgame as a casual. Say, one repop every few weeks. Or, perhaps 7 days of no raiding from the hardcores.

It is just as reasonable for a dedicated group to expect greater returns from their greater investment.

Whatever scheme is adopted should be equitable. Equal sharing of raid mobs is a bandaid that does not address the core issue, nor does it respect the logic of both sides.

There was no mention of equal sharing... just that the agreement gives reasonable opportunity to any and all raids on every raid mob. For that to work there needs to be a hand's off time period on mobs you recently killed sort of like the 2 hour thing you got going now. People claiming to be so elite on here that only they can kill stuff in off hours what do you care if you bat-phone it 2 hours later after watching no one show up or even worse new raids actually attempting raid mobs.

[Alarti0001]

Keep fighting for TMO and FEIB to take most of the raid scene over more and see where it gets you. Our chat shouldn't have devolved into this. Are you ready to continue real discussions?

Are you trying to hold the raid scene hostage until you get everything you want? Good luck with that.

[baramur]

Ya was just thinking ultra simple. Which could be said as this, top 2 guilds of previous month will be required to sit out the first week of the following month. Just seems so simple and i actually believe TMO/IB/FE would agree to it, because 1 week breaks are nice, and its easy to enforce. Then the remaining guilds could come up with a way to break down the 1 free week if they felt.

[Lazie]

Ok, I know this won't be popular before I type it, but I think it is the only system that will work to solve all the problems until Velious when discussions will need to be had again. This isn't a bandaid this is a fix. The reason it will work is because it is simple and easy to follow and understand for even the outside observer.You have to move to a tier based system with as many guilds as there are. Yes rotating some of the mobs will be a part of it and the competition will be held largely at the top end of the raid mobs. The system is as follows.

Veeshan's Peak- Several rules about this zone. If you raid it Naggy and Vox is off limits to your guild. There is no 2 hour wait on spawns inside this zone. There is no rotation on this zone. It stays FFA. Track/Batphone/GET FTE/Kill.

Trakanon- Stays FFA. Track/Batphone/Get FTE/Kill. I know this is going to be one of the unpopular choices to some of the guilds. But you have to EARN your way into VP.

All other Epic piece mobs are on a tiered system which I will list.

Fay
INNY
Sev
VS
CT

If your guild wants to kill these mobs and haven't before they have to request for a spot on Fay. To move to the next mob on the rotation they must kill Fay 2 times cleanly. This will be the case for each mob on the list. You will still have to track and know when your Fay spawns. If 2 hours passes the mob becomes FFA to the entire server and you miss your spot on the rotation. Any guild that kills a FFA mob because of a missed kill by a guild retains their spot on that mobs rotation. There is a reward for knowing when the mob spawns and when 2 hours has passed if a guild fails to mobilize in the time given. If your guild misses the mob 2 times on the rotation you lose your spot on that mobs rotation.

Draco/Maestro/Gore/Tal- all stay FFA. Track it/Batphone it/Mobilize/Kill them

Naggy/Vox- My ideal solution for these 2 would be Weekly serverwide raids for guilds not competing for Mobs in VP. When they are found up. Shout it in EC/Post it on the forums and anyone wanting to participate in the kills get to Solb/Permafrost. That however is up to the guilds not competing in VP to decide. However I think some of the funnest raids I attended when I started playing EQ were the ones people threw together and complete strangers came together to get the mob killed. Would be a nice weekly event for the server.

[Tasslehofp99]

Why has no one specifically brought up CT yet ?


I think this is the most broken encounter p99 offers. Kiting all of fear should be considered raid interference. First guild in fear clearing mobs should get the first unimpeded attempt, if it is carried out in a reasonable amount of time.

Don't try to tell me guilds kited all of fear on live either, ill know you're lying then.

[baramur]

1st-8th of every month TMO/IB/FE on raid break hosting keggers at Tasslehoff and Alartis house. Problem solved. Rest of server can rejoice for 1 week a month!!!!!!!!!

[Tasslehofp99]

1st-8th of every month TMO/IB/FE on raid break hosting keggers at Tasslehoff and Alartis house. Problem solved. Rest of server can rejoice for 1 week a month!!!!!!!!!

Byob, and if you puke at my house you better clean that shit up yo.

[Tasslehofp99]

Why has no one specifically brought up CT yet ?


I think this is the most broken encounter p99 offers. Kiting all of fear should be considered raid interference. First guild in fear clearing mobs should get the first unimpeded attempt, if it is carried out in a reasonable amount of time.

Don't try to tell me guilds kited all of fear on live either, ill know you're lying then.

But seriously, this...

[Joroz]

Tiered system is shit...

Why have special rules for all the trash raid mobs.

Yet leave the rules the same as now for anything that is worth killing? (epic/key mobs)

[Bossman]

Yeah, I guess 2 hours is a bit long.
What if it was a rule like no guild can kill 2/3 consecutive spawns of one mob?

For example TMO kills trak, sits out next one. Fe/IB kills trak next spawn, sits out next one. Now neither FE/IB or TMO can raid the next trak(3rd spawn, 2 since TMO last killed,) he spawns and whoever is capable goes and kills it. That is 3 trakanons, on the 4th TMO would then be eligible to partake...then the 5th FE/IB could go again.


Well after I typed that up it sounded more like a rotation than I originally imagined, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

Repost from other thread....sigh...

Essentially all other guilds not named TMO or FEIB compete against each other for 1/3 of targets outside of VP...not a good solution

[Troubled]

Ok, I know this won't be popular before I type it, but I think it is the only system that will work to solve all the problems until Velious when discussions will need to be had again. This isn't a bandaid this is a fix. The reason it will work is because it is simple and easy to follow and understand for even the outside observer.You have to move to a tier based system with as many guilds as there are. Yes rotating some of the mobs will be a part of it and the competition will be held largely at the top end of the raid mobs. The system is as follows.

Veeshan's Peak- Several rules about this zone. If you raid it Naggy and Vox is off limits to your guild. There is no 2 hour wait on spawns inside this zone. There is no rotation on this zone. It stays FFA. Track/Batphone/GET FTE/Kill.

Trakanon- Stays FFA. Track/Batphone/Get FTE/Kill. I know this is going to be one of the unpopular choices to some of the guilds. But you have to EARN your way into VP.

All other Epic piece mobs are on a tiered system which I will list.

Fay
INNY
Sev
VS
CT

If your guild wants to kill these mobs and haven't before they have to request for a spot on Fay. To move to the next mob on the rotation they must kill Fay 2 times cleanly. This will be the case for each mob on the list. You will still have to track and know when your Fay spawns. If 2 hours passes the mob becomes FFA to the entire server and you miss your spot on the rotation. Any guild that kills a FFA mob because of a missed kill by a guild retains their spot on that mobs rotation. There is a reward for knowing when the mob spawns and when 2 hours has passed if a guild fails to mobilize in the time given. If your guild misses the mob 2 times on the rotation you lose your spot on that mobs rotation.

Draco/Maestro/Gore/Tal- all stay FFA. Track it/Batphone it/Mobilize/Kill them

Naggy/Vox- My ideal solution for these 2 would be Weekly serverwide raids for guilds not competing for Mobs in VP. When they are found up. Shout it in EC/Post it on the forums and anyone wanting to participate in the kills get to Solb/Permafrost. That however is up to the guilds not competing in VP to decide. However I think some of the funnest raids I attended when I started playing EQ were the ones people threw together and complete strangers came together to get the mob killed. Would be a nice weekly event for the server.

Kinda cool. What comes after Fay for progressing guilds? Inny? Or whatever they want added to the rot for?

[Lazie]

Kinda cool. What comes after Fay for progressing guilds?

Fay
Inny
Sev
VS
CT

[Fael]

But seriously, this...

CT fear kites are my favorite encounter!

Don't take it away from me :(

Dolic

[baramur]

Essentially all other guilds not named TMO or FEIB compete against each other for 1/3 of targets outside of VP...not a good solution

I see your point, but atm all other guilds besides tmo/ib/fe are currently getting 1/10 of the raid mobs? Hey if you asked me i would tell you this.

1st week month TMO/IB/FE sits out.
2nd week of month All Compete
3rd week of month TMO/IB/FE/next highest all sit out (but if a mob is up more then 4 hours its open to be engaged by anyone)
4th week All Compete.

[Lazie]

Tiered system is shit...

Why have special rules for all the trash raid mobs.

Yet leave the rules the same as now for anything that is worth killing? (epic/key mobs)

? huh...The mobs that drop the epic pieces are the ones being rotated. Bards will still need a Trak kill and be lucky on the drop to finish their epic. Red Scales drop off several mobs like Ragefire,Naggy, and Talendor so they are accessable via different paths. White Scales drop off Vox and Gore so you have ways of earning a scale.

[Bossman]

I see your point, but atm all other guilds besides tmo/ib/fe are currently getting 1/10 of the raid mobs? Hey if you asked me i would tell you this.

1st week month TMO/IB/FE sits out.
2nd week of month All Compete
3rd week of month TMO/IB/FE/next highest all sit out (but if a mob is up more then 4 hours its open to be engaged by anyone)
4th week All Compete.

The only mobs that sit up for 4 hours are Vox and Gore, and I don't think that either guild should be regularly going for them at this point.

[Bossman]

And the thing that really kills me is that the majority of TMO seems to want competition. If you guys want competition then why the fuck did you try to block VP off for so long? Where is the competition in having the best raid zone currently in the game uncontested?

[Autotune]

And the thing that really kills me is that the majority of TMO seems to want competition. If you guys want competition then why the fuck did you try to block VP off for so long? Where is the competition in having the best raid zone in the game currently uncontested?

TMO wants someone to do what TMO did. However, the only people willing to do what TMO did are/were in TMO.

Some in TMO just want the loot, so they don't want real competition.

Those two goals line up.

[Joroz]

? huh...The mobs that drop the epic pieces are the ones being rotated. Bards will still need a Trak kill and be lucky on the drop to finish their epic. Red Scales drop off several mobs like Ragefire,Naggy, and Talendor so they are accessable via different paths. White Scales drop off Vox and Gore so you have ways of earning a scale.

Every proposed tier system so far is about follow these rules for this mob but not on this one cause it has more value to this guild... agreement needs to present opportunities instead of continuing to promote who can park enough toons at all the "high" priority targets and log them in for 5 minutes at any given notice to kill a raid mob, get the loot on a toon that will... gasp be logged out at another raid target and never actually played. Gearing toons to camp out to get more gear for toons to camp out... see where this is going... camping out a mob isn't raiding... its called being an asshole.