Bumamgar

[Starklen]

Ektar tried to impose some additional rules on the situation, and I promptly ignored him. I'm not against working within an additional set of player created rules, but no one handed me a rulebook when I formed WI and started raiding, and waiting till I'm running a raid under a 30 minute timer at 8:30 in the morning on a Monday to inform me of these "extra" rules and expecting me to honor them sight unseen and back down from a mob I've just spent 5 days camping is ludicrous. I'm sure I'll be involved in further discussions with the other raiding guilds on this server and come to an agreement, but springing it as a surprise mid-raid is pretty lame, imho. It was well known that WI was camping Naggy, and there was plenty of time for Ektar to send me a tell during that time to make sure I was aware of whatever additional rules beyond the official GM created rules I was going to be expected to know about and adhere to.

If two raid forces of 15 people remain in the zone of a raid npc with the intent of camping the spawn the first raid force with the 15 minimum will have rights to the first attempt provided they meet the roll call from the second raid force upon the actual spawn. A roll call will be made in shout by the raid leader of the second raid present with 15 people. The raid force who was there first is then REQUIRED to have at least 15 members reply in shout with “present” within 60 seconds. If the raid force that was there first fails to have 15 people reply within 60 seconds, the attempt will be awarded to the raid force who was there second. Once the 60 seconds has expired ,the second raid force will also have 60 seconds to shout that they are present in order to confirm claim. In order to maintain “being there first” during a camp, 15 members must remain in the zone. At any point of that number goes below 15, then first shot would change to the raid force who is present with 15. A roll call is only to be used if there is more than one raid force in a zone and then a raid mob spawns.

http://i30.tinypic.com/29kthdx.jpg

[Aadill]

Thanks, IB, for showing a bit of sportsmanship. Hopefully, we can all continue to participate with the raid rulesets effectively and competitively. There's been a few hiccups along the way and it seems to me Ektar made a good move in this instance. Grats on the Naggy kill, WI.

[Bumamgar]

If two raid forces of 15 people remain in the zone of a raid npc with the intent of camping the spawn the first raid force with the 15 minimum will have rights to the first attempt provided they meet the roll call from the second raid force upon the actual spawn. A roll call will be made in shout by the raid leader of the second raid present with 15 people. The raid force who was there first is then REQUIRED to have at least 15 members reply in shout with “present” within 60 seconds. If the raid force that was there first fails to have 15 people reply within 60 seconds, the attempt will be awarded to the raid force who was there second. Once the 60 seconds has expired ,the second raid force will also have 60 seconds to shout that they are present in order to confirm claim. In order to maintain “being there first” during a camp, 15 members must remain in the zone. At any point of that number goes below 15, then first shot would change to the raid force who is present with 15. A roll call is only to be used if there is more than one raid force in a zone and then a raid mob spawns.
Please provide a reference for this and clarify if this is a GM rule or a player rule.

Thank you!

[Chicka]

Please provide a reference for this and clarify if this is a GM rule or a player rule.

Thank you!

Dude you have been given the reference in the other thread, but please let me direct your attention to the RAID RULES sticky thread in the guild forum.

[Skope]

Just to clarify, i was there staring at the clock (my own clock) when Ektar called the initial roll call, i didn't timestamp it because IB was doing the call and not us. It took about 30+ seconds before the first WI member even realized what was going on and Soulquin i believe was the first to respond with a "present." After a bit the rest of WI began to catch on and responded accordingly, unfortunately it was after the 1 minute mark.

At first I couldn't believe that IB didn't hold them to the rule and actually had to scroll up to see what happened, and frankly I still don't understand it. Why in the world would you call a 30 minute timer on a guild that's failed a roll call?

Regardless, Bumamgar, you should know these rules like the back of your hand if you're looking to start raiding here. "I wasn't aware" isn't a valid excuse.

[Loke]

To my knowledge GMs agreed to uphold player rules. If a guild does not want to abide by the player rules, then other players should not have to abide by the player rules when dealing with that guild.

Either WI should abide by the roll call rule OR IB should not be required to recognize WI's claim as that too is a player rule. Can't have it both ways.

[Supreme]

Wow..thanks for...

Well thanks for trying to show some consideration that this was their FIRST raid on a major target and are NEW to the whole process.

[Bumamgar]

Just to clarify, i was there staring at the clock (my own clock) when Ektar called the initial roll call, i didn't timestamp it because IB was doing the call and not us. It took about 30+ seconds before the first WI member even realized what was going on and Soulquin i believe was the first to respond with a "present." After a bit the rest of WI began to catch on and responded accordingly, unfortunately it was after the 1 minute mark.

At first I couldn't believe that IB didn't hold them to the rule and actually had to scroll up to see what happened, and frankly I still don't understand it. Why in the world would you call a 30 minute timer on a guild that's failed a roll call?

Regardless, Bumamgar, you should know these rules like the back of your hand if you're looking to start raiding here. "I wasn't aware" isn't a valid excuse.Skope, you've had it in for me from the get go, so I don't really care what you think I "should know". No one sent me a link to the player rules when I declared I was forming WI, when I declared we were a raiding guild, or when I've commented elsewhere about raid rules on this server. It is my obligation to know and abide by the server rules as mandated by the GMs and I have fulfilled that obligation. If players want to setup their own rule systems, that's great, but you cannot assume new players will automatically know those rules, and as such, it becomes YOUR obligation to inform new players, otherwise there is no reason to expect them to abide by anything beyond the server rules.

By your own admission, WI had no clue what the fuck a "roll call" was since there is no mention of such things in the Raid System Rules posted by Nilbog. Those are the only rules I was aware of or had read.

http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2670&highlight=server+raid+rules

I am now aware of another set of rules. I will read them. I will decide if they are agreeable to me and my guild, and will act accordingly.

IB honored the server rules and I have no beef with them. By the player rules they could have chosen to steamroll us, but chose not to hold us to the player rules since it was clear we were unaware of them. I appreciate that considerably.

[Skope]

Problem is that these "player-made rules" are enforced with the hammer of GMs. If your guild declines to follow these "player-made rules" then you should expect every other guild on the server not to follow them when WI are in the same zone.

Furthermore, I HAVE had it out for you and judging from the way you've handled both situations I'm inclined to believe I was right all along. IB gave you a free pass here, take it accept it and move on. They could have very easily said "Naggy is ours now" but chose not to when they called that 30 minute timer. You got away with one, quit trying to defend yourself and your laziness in learning the rules and move on to the next one.

Stating that you'll contemplate on whether you'll agree with these rules is BS. A developer a head of a raiding guild is now contemplating on whether or not he wants to agree with the player-made an GM enforced raiding rules of the server... nice one dude. You're looking classier every minute

[Loke]

Wow..thanks for...

Well thanks for trying to show some consideration that this was their FIRST raid on a major target and are NEW to the whole process.

Oh yea, because it is someone's first try at something other people should just back off and let them have it?! I don't think anyone involved would want that.

WI kill the mob and they did it with pressure from IB - I'm sure they feel much better knowing they can compete and succeed. Props to them imo. I would like to see them work within the confines of player agreed upon rules - but that is an issue for the leadership of involved guilds to decide, not randoms on the rant board.

[Bumamgar]

Problem is that these "player-made rules" are enforced with the hammer of GMs.
Oh really? Do you have a reference for that?

If this is indeed true, one would think they'd be listed in the rules and regulation section of this forum, one section I am familiar with and have read, not buried in the Guild Recruitment forum, a forum I've only ever stopped in to update my own personal guild's recruitment post.

[Yellow]

me personally thinks the Gm's have too many fingers up there ass's to be able to properly Play there Role as Game masters and make some actual worth while changes to fix the state of this snowballing server.

[Toony]

me personally thinks the Gm's have too many fingers up there ass's to be able to properly Play there Role as Game masters and make some actual worth while changes to fix the state of this snowballing server.

GM's don't make changes/fixes to the server. Nor is Bumamgar a GM for that matter.

[Starklen]

Please provide a reference for this and clarify if this is a GM rule or a player rule.

Thank you!

Please read the guild discussion forums for the server you develop.

Thanks!

[whitebandit]

GM's don't make changes/fixes to the server. Nor is Bumamgar a GM for that matter.

Developers make changes to the servers, and as the Patch notes read on the front Page, Bumamgar Is a developer and seems to be one who makes changes (per front page patch notes), and also happens to be a leader of the "new raid guild".

seems like something is wrong with that...

PS, i am not trolling.. just an honest player wishing more people would play honestly.

[Toony]

Developers make changes to the servers, and as the Patch notes read on the front Page, Bumamgar Is a developer and seems to be one who makes changes (per front page patch notes), and also happens to be a leader of the "new raid guild".

seems like something is wrong with that...

PS, i am not trolling.. just an honest player wishing more people would play honestly.

Serious question, do you know the difference between a GM and a developer?

[Aadill]

http://images.4chan.org/gif/src/1280166697947.gif


That is me kicing the devs ass in a WAR!

Here's you, hotlinking images off of 4chan.org~

[Pico]

http://images.4chan.org/gif/src/1280166697947.gif


That is me kicing the devs ass in a WAR!

sorry about your crippling retardation

[Bumamgar]

Developers make changes to the servers, and as the Patch notes read on the front Page, Bumamgar Is a developer and seems to be one who makes changes (per front page patch notes), and also happens to be a leader of the "new raid guild".

seems like something is wrong with that...

PS, i am not trolling.. just an honest player wishing more people would play honestly.

Ignoring for a second your implication that someone isn't playing honestly....

I have access to the Project 1999 source code. This code is derived from the Project EQEMU source code that anyone can download from Google code. The p1999 source code is similar, but modified to implement classic features that are missing from the public EQEMU code base.

I do *not* have access to the Project 1999 database. The database contains the "data" that makes up project 1999 as a unique server. It houses character info, spawn info, timers, etc.

The code, without a database, is an empty world (in fact, for testing purposes, I use a public copy of the PEQ database when coding).

So yes, I can do things like adjust hybrid XP penalties, but I can't see when Naggy will spawn. I also have no GM powers in game, on any account. I cannot ban people, I cannot see the petition queue, I cannot do anything in-game any different than anyone else.

If you look through the patch notes, my contributions to this server have almost exclusively been to make things harder for everyone. Nerfing XP, reducing non-cleric heals by 10%, etc. These changes affect everyone, including me. They do not give myself or my guild any advantage over anyone else.

[Skope]

Ignoring for a second your implication that someone isn't playing honestly....

I have access to the Project 1999 source code. This code is derived from the Project EQEMU source code that anyone can download from Google code. The p1999 source code is similar, but modified to implement classic features that are missing from the public EQEMU code base.

I do *not* have access to the Project 1999 database. The database contains the "data" that makes up project 1999 as a unique server. It houses character info, spawn info, timers, etc.

The code, without a database, is an empty world (in fact, for testing purposes, I use a public copy of the PEQ database when coding).

So yes, I can do things like adjust hybrid XP penalties, but I can't see when Naggy will spawn. I also have no GM powers in game, on any account. I cannot ban people, I cannot see the petition queue, I cannot do anything in-game any different than anyone else.

If you look through the patch notes, my contributions to this server have almost exclusively been to make things harder for everyone. Nerfing XP, reducing non-cleric heals by 10%, etc. These changes affect everyone, including me. They do not give myself or my guild any advantage over anyone else.

Just to clarify, I think you're a fantastic dev and when i read patch notes with your name attached I actually appreciated them and thought they were great!

On the other hand, I think you've been a parasite to the raiding scene, which is unfortunate because many of your guild members are quite awesome people.

[Redriot]

This thread needs more Softy.

[Lucrio40]

http://images.4chan.org/gif/src/1280166697947.gif


That is me kicing the devs ass in a WAR!

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/30403/original/YouMad.jpg?1260647699

[Bones]

sorry about your crippling retardation
That is fucking classic, lol.

[Phallax]

Anyone that claims they dont know the "raiding rules" set by players or GMS and visit this site...pretty much anywhere, is lying. The rules pop up at least once a day on server chat, R&F, or in game.

It looks like IB took the high road here and gave you a get of jail free card here. You should accept it and move on.

[haeretic]

Where is the player evidence (timestamped screen shot) of WI supposedly failing the roll call, and perhaps the one showing when/if they fulfilled it?

If GMs truly enforce the player-made raid rules in regard to a roll call timer, would it not be safe to assume they have evidence of whether or not it was completed and within what time frame?

Is someone suggesting IB 'gave' WI 30 minutes with Nagafen, although they had every right not to?

[Beau]

Where is the player evidence (timestamped screen shot) of WI supposedly failing the roll call, and perhaps the one showing when/if they fulfilled it?

If GMs truly enforce the player-made raid rules in regard to a roll call timer, would it not be safe to assume they have evidence of whether or not it was completed and within what time frame?

Is someone suggesting IB 'gave' WI 30 minutes with Nagafen, although they had every right not to?

There is no need for one being as IB did not push the issue. This thread is about Ektar being called out for following the same rules this server has gone off of for the last several months, and other players claiming ignorance to those rules. Not about who had claim over a mob.

[Beau]

Basically don't come to Rants and flames and call someone out for trying to take the high road, and do things the right way, especially after said player or group of players took a higher road and let you have it all together.

[Aeolwind]

GM's don't make changes/fixes to the server. Nor is Bumamgar a GM for that matter.

I think I'm the only cross between development/GM'ing (and since I hate most of you, I'll probably be the only one :p ). I've been trying to help Cyrius more here as of late.

I face planted when I saw the actual state of the Kunark quests and went and banned like 4 people. I felt better =(.

[guineapig]

I face planted when I saw the actual state of the Kunark quests and went and banned like 4 people. I felt better =(.

You have to stop with these awesome quotes man! :D

[Toony]

I think I'm the only cross between development/GM'ing (and since I hate most of you, I'll probably be the only one :p ). I've been trying to help Cyrius more here as of late.

I face planted when I saw the actual state of the Kunark quests and went and banned like 4 people. I felt better =(.

Well shit, thanks for blowing that seemingly safe assumption :D Eh hey, you dont also lead a high end raiding guild here do ya?

/rhetorical

[Atern]

You know, the really funny part about this is that when Ektar called "role call" in shout, he was staring at about 18 WI members who just ran off the ledge over to the other side of the lava to start buffs. WE WERE OBVIOUSLY AFK BECAUSE WE WERE MOVING AND BUFFING!!! And of course the first responses to it were various camp checks, because we were going over buffs and groups in guild chat. So sorry it took us 70 seconds to answer the roll call! Maybe we can get audio macros to go off when certain phrases appear in shout so i know to look at that chat window?

[Chicka]

You know, the really funny part about this is that when Ektar called "role call" in shout, he was staring at about 18 WI members who just ran off the ledge over to the other side of the lava to start buffs. WE WERE OBVIOUSLY AFK BECAUSE WE WERE MOVING AND BUFFING!!! And of course the first responses to it were various camp checks, because we were going over buffs and groups in guild chat. So sorry it took us 70 seconds to answer the roll call! Maybe we can get audio macros to go off when certain phrases appear in shout so i know to look at that chat window?

I counted the moving toons, there were 12.

[Redriot]

So sorry it took us 70 seconds to answer the roll call!

And yet IB didn't roll over you and yet here you are still complaining and whining.

[girth]

Is someone suggesting IB 'gave' WI 30 minutes with Nagafen, although they had every right not to?

Pretty much...if you assume we had proof that they failed the role call, which they did.
I'm happy though for some of my buddies in WI for getting their first kill, but Bumamgar is really showing his true colors. Also heard he planned to ignore the 30 minute timer if it came to that, but that's just hearsay. I believe it though after reading this thread.

[Atern]

I don't see where I complained or whined about anything?

And you should learn to count...

[Atern]

Pretty much...if you assume we had proof that they failed the role call, which they did.
I'm happy though for some of my buddies in WI for getting their first kill, but Bumamgar is really showing his true colors. Also heard he planned to ignore the 30 minute timer if it came to that, but that's just hearsay. I believe it though after reading this thread.

And that's how rumors get started. Good job!

[Bumamgar]

Just to clarify, I think you're a fantastic dev and when i read patch notes with your name attached I actually appreciated them and thought they were great!

On the other hand, I think you've been a parasite to the raiding scene, which is unfortunate because many of your guild members are quite awesome people.
Thanks for the dev comments, I appreciate it.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how you could consider me a parasite to the raiding scene. A parasite latches on to a host and steals energy (usually in the form of food) from the host. Generally calling someone a parasite implies that they have achieved their success by riding on the coattails or backs of another. I'm not sure how you could imply that of me or my guild.

[Aeolwind]

Well shit, thanks for blowing that seemingly safe assumption :D Eh hey, you dont also lead a high end raiding guild here do ya?

/rhetorical

This only recently (since Nil's leash post). Like within 2 weeks I guess? No official announcement, I've always kinda done both, but I generally tended to not get involved unless no one else was around. I'm not very tolerant or forgiving.

Negative, I got to play like twice since release. If I had a guild, and if I ran it, we'd be raiding rats in FP.

[xorbier]

Developer > Guide. Congratulations WI!

[Bumamgar]

There is no need for one being as IB did not push the issue. This thread is about Ektar being called out for following the same rules this server has gone off of for the last several months, and other players claiming ignorance to those rules. Not about who had claim over a mob.

No one from WI called Ektar out for anything. Someone else flamed WI for failing the role call and I thanked IB for not pushing the issue. I know it's hard for forum trolls to read through their rage-vision, but seriously, at least make some attempt to read before posting, thanks!

(Actually, I think Skope, who is not a member of WI and is in fact, the founding member of the p1999 chapter of the global Bumamgar haters club, is the one who "called out Ektar" and claimed "shady" dealings when we failed the timer and IB chose not to enforce it).

[girth]

And that's how rumors get started. Good job!

Source is pretty reliable. Just saying. It doesn't help his case that he's on here acting like he's ignorant of raid rules as a raiding guild GM and that he will now look them over and 'decide something' from there...AFTER the fact that it should have cost him a boss, AND he acts like the victim here.

Seriously?

[Atern]

IMO all raiding rules should be in 1 place, not spread out among multiple threads. I guess I should ask this now..

Are there any other "raid rules" threads we need to know about other than the server raid rules and this player raid rules thread?

Maybe we can avoid all of this in the future. Or better yet, maybe we should combine all the rules together?

[Bumamgar]

Pretty much...if you assume we had proof that they failed the role call, which they did.
I'm happy though for some of my buddies in WI for getting their first kill, but Bumamgar is really showing his true colors. Also heard he planned to ignore the 30 minute timer if it came to that, but that's just hearsay. I believe it though after reading this thread.

What the fuck?

Seriously, the only people whining anywhere in any of these threads are people outside of WI. Please, show me where a WI member has whined... I anxiously await the wall of quotes showing any whining at all by any member of WI in relation to this incident, period....

[Humerox]

No one from WI called Ektar out for anything. Someone else flamed WI for failing the role call and I thanked IB for not pushing the issue. I know it's hard for forum trolls to read through their rage-vision, but seriously, at least make some attempt to read before posting, thanks!

(Actually, I think Skope, who is not a member of WI and is in fact, the founding member of the p1999 chapter of the global Bumamgar haters club, is the one who "called out Ektar" and claimed "shady" dealings when we failed the timer and IB chose not to enforce it).

IB had the dignity and respect to realize that WI may not have been aware of the existing rules.

Bravo IB, and cheers to WI for your dragon kill! :)

Now let's all get together and address this camping fiasco.

[Beau]

No one from WI called Ektar out for anything. Someone else flamed WI for failing the role call and I thanked IB for not pushing the issue. I know it's hard for forum trolls to read through their rage-vision, but seriously, at least make some attempt to read before posting, thanks!

And

Ektar tried to impose some additional rules on the situation, and I promptly ignored him. I'm not against working within an additional set of player created rules, but no one handed me a rulebook when I formed WI and started raiding, and waiting till I'm running a raid under a 30 minute timer at 8:30 in the morning on a Monday to inform me of these "extra" rules and expecting me to honor them sight unseen and back down from a mob I've just spent 5 days camping is ludicrous. I'm sure I'll be involved in further discussions with the other raiding guilds on this server and come to an agreement, but springing it as a surprise mid-raid is pretty lame, imho. It was well known that WI was camping Naggy, and there was plenty of time for Ektar to send me a tell during that time to make sure I was aware of whatever additional rules beyond the official GM created rules I was going to be expected to know about and adhere to.

To me, coming to the RnF and calling someone by name on something you dont agree with, is a pretty good example of calling someone out. That may not have been your intention, but that is how it came across. "Soandso trying to impose additional rules." It would be one thing if he was making stuff up on the spot. But these particular "additional rules" have been standard practice for months.

[girth]

This will be my last post on this thread. I didn't say anybody was whining...ever... I just think you acted kinda shady. I have trouble believing you or anybody in your guilds leadership really did not know those rules.

Grats again on your kill though. As much as I wanted to slay that big red fag, I'm happy for you guys.

[Ranger1930]

I NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS GAME EVER EVER EVER EVER SAW GMS STEP IN ON PLAYER RAIDS.

Never on Xegony did this every happen. Not even when we woke up the sleeper . Even then they just waited till he wiped all the zones then they killed him and that was it.

Raids were just madness., you got your people there and you engaged them mob when you engaged it. if someone else came up with the people and attacked it before your raid did you got pissed and hoped they wiped.

Petitioning to a GM about it would result to him/her telling you tough luck.

These people coming up with all this rediculous speculations and time lines and 60 second roll galls. A 60 second roll call? WHat dumb ass started that idea. It takes me longer than 60 econds to take a piss.

Thats a joke. a 30 - 45 minute time window to put up or shut is one thing but that crap about swiping and taking stuff because of a 60 second Rollcall rule is horseshit.. If they gonna engage the mob in 60 seconds whether a raid is there before them or not they just need to man up engage it then loot their crap like the buncha dickheads they are and take the bad PR while not trying to make the other raid feel bad cause they in a Big F'n hurry to be the first ones no matter what.

[Toony]

I NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS GAME EVER EVER EVER EVER SAW GMS STEP IN ON PLAYER RAIDS.

I've seen it several times. Do we cancel each other out?

[Toony]

I've seen it several times. I guess we cancel each other out

[Toony]

Sorry for double post.

[Humerox]

Thats a joke. a 30 - 45 minute time window to put up or shut is one thing but that crap about swiping and taking stuff because of a 60 second Rollcall rule is horseshit.. If they gonna engage the mob in 60 seconds whether a raid is there before them or not they just need to man up engage it then loot their crap like the buncha dickheads they are and take the bad PR while not trying to make the other raid feel bad cause they in a Big F'n hurry to be the first ones no matter what.

Those do happen to be the rules, bubba. And they are GM enforced.

What ya afraid of?

[Bumamgar]

To me, coming to the RnF and calling someone by name on something you dont agree with, is a pretty good example of calling someone out. That may not have been your intention, but that is how it came across. "Soandso trying to impose additional rules." It would be one thing if he was making stuff up on the spot. But these particular "additional rules" have been standard practice for months.
You took those quotes out of context (a standard rants and flames tactic, I know).

I was RESPONDING to Skope, who had already called Ektar out with his screenshots and posts. I didn't call Ektar out, Skope did. I simply responded to Skope's allegations once the "calling out" and "flaming" had already begun.

Basically, in-game, WI and IB both acted honorably and within the server rules. However, Skope, who had been stalking the WI camp for a few days, decided to come here and stir up some shit, and succeeded.

If I'm to blame for anything, it's for trying to actually explain the situation to Skope and others when it's clear he just wanted to rage against me for no reason and I should have just ignored him and let it go.

[Skope]

No one from WI called Ektar out for anything. Someone else flamed WI for failing the role call and I thanked IB for not pushing the issue. I know it's hard for forum trolls to read through their rage-vision, but seriously, at least make some attempt to read before posting, thanks!

(Actually, I think Skope, who is not a member of WI and is in fact, the founding member of the p1999 chapter of the global Bumamgar haters club, is the one who "called out Ektar" and claimed "shady" dealings when we failed the timer and IB chose not to enforce it).

I absolutely thought it was shady when IB didn't hold you to the same rules they'd hold everyone else to, and even shadier that you weren't obliged to follow the same rules as the other guilds have had to follow for months now after the fact with the argument that you didn't know these rules existed. THEN, as if a person could actually top that, you, as the guild leader, claimed that you'll think about whether or not you'll abide by that rule in the future.

You're all kinds of shady. What's worse is that you're leading a guild with some pretty cool people and giving them a really bad name. If you want my advice, it would be wise to be truthful and apologize and say you weren't aware of how these things go instead of "i'll think about whether or not i agree with these rules." That's not exactly the kind of thing you want to see from a guild and a leader who recently joined the raiding scene thinking he can start widening his shoulders after a poopsock dragon kill.

Had Ektar held you to the standard that everyone else is held to, you'd have had some serious explaining to do to your own guildies because of your laziness and inability to read the raiding rules. No matter how angry you think i am, your guildies should really be infuriated.

[Skope]

Furthermore, i wasn't stirring the pot, whatever went down happened without me. I posted the screenshot as further proof that the current rules we have aren't even followed and guilds aren't held responsible for forcing other guilds to follow them. I think i've more than proved that point by now.

[Rogean]

I think I'm the only cross between development/GM'ing

*clears throat*. hmmm?

Also, to clarify to everyone so theres no misunderstandings since I saw it starting to get mentioned; the only people with access to the full live server database are nilbog and myself. This is the database that holds everything, both content, player, and server status. The database that the developers have access to and work on is the test server database, which only receives snapshots of the live database maybe once every few months. This database runs independantly of spawn timers and any other information from the live server's operations.

There's also different levels of status, or lack of, on the live server. Guides, GM's, Admins, etc. A developer typically doesn't have GM Access to the live server, especially if they have a play character (Bumamgar). They *may*, if they chose to, have Guide access, as any person who fills the position of guide is someone who plays on the server; however there are no developers that currently do this.

[Bumamgar]

Edit: This entire post is directed to Skope, just so it's clear.

I'm sorry that you think you have any influence what-so-ever on the dealings of two guilds that you are not a part of, or that you are delusional enough to think that you are entitled to an explanation for their behavior.

There is absolutely NOTHING "shady" about IB deciding not to push the issue of the 60 second roll call. Nothing at all. It was an honorable act that you are shitting all over for some unfathomable reason.

You can call me shady and say you don't believe I was unaware of the 60 second role call rule, fine. You have no way of knowing what I am or am not aware of, and are entitled to your opinion regarding me.

As for my willingness to agree to player made rules, well, just like any other agreement between players, I have as much say in them as anyone else, and I can chose to abide by them or not. You'll note, I have never once said that I will not abide by them. What I have said is perfectly reasonable... I will review the rules and see if I am willing to play by them. You can flame me for that, but frankly, it's no more or less than any other guild leader on the server has done. Your own guild leadership, in fact, has done so, and decided not to play by them by refusing to camp mobs and call timers on IB and DA.

When I make a decision regarding the player made rules, I probably won't bother to post that decision here, but I might, you never know :)

[Beau]

Maybe I miss interpreted things from the start and I'm the one who is wrong. If so, then I apologize. Maybe I just took it personal and read it wrong. Ektar puts a lot of work into this game and into IB, and is 100% legit and by the book about how he does it. Don't like the idea of good people being put down, and honestly that is how it read for me, even in context. Even still, I'll drop it.

[Skope]

Edit: This entire post is directed to Skope, just so it's clear.

I'm sorry that you think you have any influence what-so-ever on the dealings of two guilds that you are not a part of, or that you are delusional enough to think that you are entitled to an explanation for their behavior.

There is absolutely NOTHING "shady" about IB deciding not to push the issue of the 60 second roll call. Nothing at all. It was an honorable act that you are shitting all over for some unfathomable reason.

You can call me shady and say you don't believe I was unaware of the 60 second role call rule, fine. You have no way of knowing what I am or am not aware of, and are entitled to your opinion regarding me.

As for my willingness to agree to player made rules, well, just like any other agreement between players, I have as much say in them as anyone else, and I can chose to abide by them or not. You'll note, I have never once said that I will not abide by them. What I have said is perfectly reasonable... I will review the rules and see if I am willing to play by them. You can flame me for that, but frankly, it's no more or less than any other guild leader on the server has done. Your own guild leadership, in fact, has done so, and decided not to play by them by refusing to camp mobs and call timers on IB and DA.

When I make a decision regarding the player made rules, I probably won't bother to post that decision here, but I might, you never know :)

At this point I don't think I'd care. You've more than proven your ability as a guildleader by the complete lack of the raid rules, that's more than clear.

And you may want to read my post again, but you may have missed the point because i lacked some clarity and then ignored the post you're responding to now so here it is again...

My intention of posting the screenshot was to prove that guilds don't even bother to enforce the rules they themselves abide by on other guilds. The rules came into play and were simply tossed out, for whatever reason i don't know and frankly don't care. But what this does is prove my point that the current rules AREN'T EVEN ABIDED BY. How much more of a reason can we possibly get to change the damn things?

[Humerox]

When I make a decision regarding the player made rules, I probably won't bother to post that decision here, but I might, you never know :)

Lol. Now that's arrogance.

You decide not to follow the rules, and I don't think you're beyond suspension. The "player-made rules" were signed off on by the GM's.

You want to buck the system, do it by getting the rules changed...because if they don't apply to you, they don't apply to anyone else, either.

[Comfortably]

Skope, i'm embarrassed for you, quit getting so worked up over emulated pixels.. no one else seems to have a problem here but you, grow up bud :)

Bum is a great leader, and has proven that throughout all of WI's success's here and on the combine.

[Xaleban]

WTS Vaseline and other various forms of butthurt cures

[Skope]

WTS Vaseline and other various forms of butthurt cures

It's not being butthurt, it's your GM stating he may or may not decide to play by the rules of the server. And that's not much of a defense for his case...

If the argument is my guild didn't sign this charter it's very easy to make a guild called <bla> and decide not abide by any rules at all. That's a very slippery road you're taking with those comments.

As was stated, we both agree that the rules are horrendous and need changing, the 1min roll call is just one of many, let's quit the flaming and actually get to work.

[Chicka]

You decide not to follow the rules, and I don't think you're beyond suspension. The "player-made rules" were signed off on by the GM's.

FWIW I didn't read his post and automatically think he'd be running the KS guild around here with certain knowledge of impunity. Rather, that he'd look at the rules and decide if his guild wanted to participate in the raid scene based on those rules - rather like Divinity etc. have done.

[Volga]

It's not being butthurt, it's your GM stating he may or may not decide to play by the rules of the server. And that's not much of a defense for his case...
.

With no intention to jump into the fire I'd like point out that it has been made very clear by Bumamgar and Rogean that Bumamgar is not a GM. His status as a developer does not give him access to the servers database nor does it grant him special powers or consideration from the GM's.

Furthermore, Bumamgar has made it very clear within the WI ranks that his activities as a developer are completely separate from his activities as a gamer/guild leader. Anyone suggesting otherwise and trying to exploit his status will be dipped in scalding hot diarrhea and forced to watch the Crying Game in High Definition repeatedly.

As I am not an officer or in any way affiliated with policy making internally or globally I will not comment on the other contents of the thread.

[Aeolwind]

With no intention to jump into the fire I'd like point out that it has been made very clear by Bumamgar and Rogean that Bumamgar is not a GM. His status as a developer does not give him access to the servers database nor does it grant him special powers or consideration from the GM's.

Furthermore, Bumamgar has made it very clear within the WI ranks that his activities as a developer are completely separate from his activities as a gamer/guild leader. Anyone suggesting otherwise and trying to exploit his status will be dipped in scalding hot diarrhea and forced to watch the Crying Game in High Definition repeatedly.

As I am not an officer or in any way affiliated with policy making internally or globally I will not comment on the other contents of the thread.

Pretty sure the GM that he is referring to is Guild master.

[Volga]

Wups,

I retract the above post as I miss-read the quote thinking Skope was saying GameMaster not GuildMaster.

I better get outta here =)

[Hilolas]

As was stated, we both agree that the rules are horrendous and need changing, the 1min roll call is just one of many, let's quit the flaming and actually get to work.

Sorry buddy, not gonna let you try to turn your argument and save face at the last minute... Calling you out on that one...

Stick with your argument, rants, flames, and ideals or gtfo.

Ohhh and before you reply with "I'm not trying to turn my argument and save face", don't bother, we've heard it all before.

That is all.

-Hilolas

[Olorin]

Lol. Now that's arrogance.

You decide not to follow the rules, and I don't think you're beyond suspension. The "player-made rules" were signed off on by the GM's.

You want to buck the system, do it by getting the rules changed...because if they don't apply to you, they don't apply to anyone else, either.

Shrug, of all the guilds they came up with these "rules", i believe WI was the only one NOT represented. To be honest, they're scewed towards super large zerg guilds, those that routinly field 50-60 players against raid targets.

I am not sure why guilds (or pick up raids since they constitute a raid force) would be subject to these or why the leadership of 4 guilds thinks they get to decide the raid rules for the whole server. There's what 8-9 guilds now that are planar capable?

In the end allowing 60 seconds to answer a roll call is ridiculous, people alt-tab, make dinner while they play, go to the bathroom etc. Not a big deal if you have 50 people camping, but a lot more important if youre doing it with 20.

It will be interesting to see what actually happens, imo.

[Skope]

You can continue to try to back your guild leader (when i said GM i meant guild master, or leader, whatever), I'm done. He's proved himself quite a dick, you flaming me isn't going to change that.

What i said about the rules needing to be changed is quite obvious, I think that incident this morning was a testament to that fact.

[Volga]

You can continue to try to back your guild leader (when i said GM i meant guild master, or leader, whatever),
.

Hi Skope,

If that was for me I conceded that point and retracted the post two down. I did not read who the quote was from and missed the context.

[tuxqueot]

I, for one, think the roll call thing is a joke. Just this very evening, while I was windowed out reading this thread and another about role call, Dino spawned in front of me. I didn't engage right away so another mage took it right out from under me. And Dino has a 6 minute repop.

Now you're telling me if I am waiting for a spawn that has a FOUR DAY window I can't even window out to read a forum thread or go take a piss for fear of missing a 60 second window to respond to someone else's abitrary role call and costing my guild the spot?

OMG people, this is a GAME.

[Dercas]

O no! The guild who camped the mob for 5 days (due to server rules) and kept the giants clear so they could have enough time on their first big raid attempt got the mob vs a guild who did not camp the mob and only had someone checking the mob the last day because there was no chance he couldn't spawn soon.

/boofuckinhoo

The problem is the server rules force you to camp big targets.

[tuxqueot]

I have no problem with camping a raid target, I have a problem with both a 30 minute kill or be gone rule AND a role call rule.

I was there the whole 4 days. sometimes doing other stuff, sometimes killing giants, sometimes killing spiders, whatever. I was there. This morning I woke up, checked my desktop, saw all was well, sat down at my laptop to check my email. Phone rings, naggy is up, I walked 5 feet over to desktop and got ready to kill.

I saw in my ooc/shout window all the role call but didn't know what it was for so I ignored it.

Then I found out what it was. So because I was doing something OTHER than watching OOC/Shout, I could have cost my guild the raid kill we waited FOUR days for. Hell even when I AM at the keyboard that OOC/Shout is usually ignored because I really don't care what people shout about.

The role call rule is BS. 30 minute rule, ok. tight but workable. Role call /lamesauce.

[Charyz]

I, for one, think the roll call thing is a joke. Just this very evening, while I was windowed out reading this thread and another about role call, Dino spawned in front of me. I didn't engage right away so another mage took it right out from under me. And Dino has a 6 minute repop.

Now you're telling me if I am waiting for a spawn that has a FOUR DAY window I can't even window out to read a forum thread or go take a piss for fear of missing a 60 second window to respond to someone else's abitrary role call and costing my guild the spot?

OMG people, this is a GAME.

Not saying I agree with it, or like it, but just explaining the justification for the 60 second. The rules set say you have to have 15 active members in a zone, not afk. If a member is not afk they shouldnt need more than 60 seconds.

Again, dont particularly agree with it all or think its a good way, just explaining the justification.

[Agaron]

Roll call is retarded. I could box 15 toons to buy my guild time to engage a raid boss. Srsly... ffa would fix everything.

[Humerox]

Shrug, of all the guilds they came up with these "rules", i believe WI was the only one NOT represented. To be honest, they're scewed towards super large zerg guilds, those that routinly field 50-60 players against raid targets.

I am not sure why guilds (or pick up raids since they constitute a raid force) would be subject to these or why the leadership of 4 guilds thinks they get to decide the raid rules for the whole server. There's what 8-9 guilds now that are planar capable?

In the end allowing 60 seconds to answer a roll call is ridiculous, people alt-tab, make dinner while they play, go to the bathroom etc. Not a big deal if you have 50 people camping, but a lot more important if youre doing it with 20.

It will be interesting to see what actually happens, imo.

Probably because they weren't around at the time? The prior guild summit was transparent, everyone knew about it, all guilds with an interest were asked to send representatives.

Guilds that were there attempted to make the rules with an eye to the future, so future guilds could be accommodated. It clearly hasn't worked.

Times change. Guilds now surely don't have to be subjected to rules that are outmoded. Leaves a couple of options:

1) Change the rules.
2) Ignore the rules en masse.

Fast roll call isn't ridiculous, either. If everybody is alt-tabbed, making dinner, or going to the bathroom when a boss mob spawned, you'd lose it during a FFA system anyway.

[Uaellaen]

the rules have been agreed on by remedy, transcendence, divinity, inglorious basterds ... WI was not even created when we made those rules ...

[Zefiris]

If I am not mistaken there are now a couple other guilds looking to enter the raid scene. Pretty sure the Big 4 never expected to maintain control of a monopoly on the raid targets so maybe now would be a good time to hold another pow wow of the leaders and reestablish/change/redistribute the player based rule set?

[Agaron]

the rules have been agreed on by remedy, transcendence, divinity, inglorious basterds ... WI was not even created when we made those rules ...

Cool, but that doesn't take away from the fact that GM's enforce those player rules. That needs to go away.

[nilbog]

Cool, but that doesn't take away from the fact that GM's enforce those player rules. That needs to go away.

Who are you referring to ? Give examples of GMs enforcing player-made rules. Do it here, or privately to me.

[Humerox]

Who are you referring to ? Give examples of GMs enforcing player-made rules. Do it here, or privately to me.


I officially give up, lol.

If player-driven rules aren't enforced, and we as players can't fix the state the server is in with some assurance that what efforts we put into are worth-while, then it doesn't matter anyway, right? That means all that goblledy**** we went through several months ago was meaningless. It means all the desire to make changes as players -and attempting to find a solution as players - is meaningless.

Cuz I can say this...end-game here is being destroyed by what's happened. It used to be fun, and competitive. Now it's neither. And all anybody is doing about it is arguing.

Well...I still love the game. I'm glad you guys have put all the effort into that you have. I'm sad to see what's happened.

But it seems that's the way it is.

[Abacab2]

Who are you referring to ? Give examples of GMs enforcing player-made rules. Do it here, or privately to me.

*Engaging with 15 people

*Calling a timer and no leapfrogging

*Killing and clearing planes before engage

*Dictating targets if two raid mobs are up

*Special rules of engagement

Nizzarr among others back in the day adopted those rules through guild meetings which are player rules, those things I listed above if broke will warrant GM enforcement in the form of bans all around.

All of those things above are player rules that were adopted and skewed into server rules due to the consensus of two end game guilds?

[Uaellaen]

If I am not mistaken there are now a couple other guilds looking to enter the raid scene. Pretty sure the Big 4 never expected to maintain control of a monopoly on the raid targets so maybe now would be a good time to hold another pow wow of the leaders and reestablish/change/redistribute the player based rule set?

we agreed from the beginnign to hold a meeting every first sunday of the month ... so new guilds could also have a say in changing rules, but still would have to be agreed on by the majority ...

but peopel stopped coming to those meetings, since some guilds thought they can just come, say "no we want it this way" and have it theyr way ... wich of course didnt happen, we discussed about that for hours and hours and hours and hours until everyone was fed up ...

[Spirell]

Just as a completely random WI guild member's take on this...

I honestly didn't know what Ektar was talking about, and that is why I didn't respond in shout until one of the officers told me too. He just did a shout that just said "roll call". I wasn't sure if that was a roll call for a raid mob, or the German translation from "camp check" (there were 2 responses of "royals" and "bnb" to that roll call btw, so I wasn't the only one confused)

I appreciate that IB was cool about it and informed us that it is usually done that waym (but FYI they did call a 30 minute timer on us right after we responded, so not like they were letting us slide). I guess I was looking for a little more than just "roll call" in shout.. maybe like a "Roll call for naggy spawn" or "roll call check on WI" or "IB initiating a 60 second roll call check on WI" or something with a little more information. As it was it was a non-issue, and no other guild was in zone with 15 plus, so I am perplexed as to why this thread started in the first place. If anything this was only an issue between IB and WI.

[nilbog]

I FULLY SUPPORT the concept of player-made rules, but my staff doesn't have to be fluent in those rules, they mitigate server rules. On more than one occasion I have specifically stated that if you call a GM, they will be showing up to enforce server rules, not yours.

As far as the raiding scene, its terrible, and I agree. I have a simple amendment to the current rules that I think will have a good effect. We're tired of reading about raids, no doubt.

Abacab, I think you misunderstood my question. I asked if GMs showed up to enforce player-made rules. If you are calling the raid rules posted by me "player-made rules", then that is just a misunderstanding. It was a combination of a lot of different people, which in the end was decided on by management, not players.

[Humerox]

I FULLY SUPPORT the concept of player-made rules, but my staff doesn't have to be fluent in those rules, they mitigate server rules. On more than one occasion I have specifically stated that if you call a GM, they will be showing up to enforce server rules, not yours.

As far as the raiding scene, its terrible, and I agree. I have a simple amendment to the current rules that I think will have a good effect. We're tired of reading about raids, no doubt..

Thank you. Sorry about the knee-jerk reaction. I hope to god you're right, lol.

[Rogean]

So, I've only been skimming this thread, but it's pretty clear to me that you guys are trying to call Bumamgar out for his guild failing some type of Roll Call? As far as I can see, theres no such rule in the server rules about a roll call, so every single point you make about that, is irrelevant.

[Starklen]

So, I've only been skimming this thread, but it's pretty clear to me that you guys are trying to call Bumamgar out for his guild failing some type of Roll Call? As far as I can see, theres no such rule in the server rules about a roll call, so every single point you make about that, is irrelevant.

Guess you shouldn't sticky it and keep the title "Official Raid Rules" then.

[Humerox]

So, I've only been skimming this thread, but it's pretty clear to me that you guys are trying to call Bumamgar out for his guild failing some type of Roll Call? As far as I can see, theres no such rule in the server rules about a roll call, so every single point you make about that, is irrelevant.

That's what I was saying in my post referring to what Nilbog stated.

How can player-driven rules be supported, then said to be irrelevant? It only means that the problems that arise with any ruleset must be addressed by the staff rather than the playerbase.

That just creates more work for you guys, because it entails having any clarifications having to be addressed by staff, versus player rules.

[Rogean]

I did not sticky it. Usually I try to stay uninvolved with that drama though.

[Hasbinbad]

So, I've only been skimming this thread, but it's pretty clear to me that you guys are trying to call Bumamgar out for his guild failing some type of Roll Call? As far as I can see, theres no such rule in the server rules about a roll call, so every single point you make about that, is irrelevant.
You are quite right, there is nothing about the roll call in the server rules, however there are good reasons to follow the player made rules as outlined in my recent post:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12993

God help the guild that wants the technicalities of the server rules enforced on them..

[Chicka]

I did not sticky it. Usually I try to stay uninvolved with that drama though.

It is also the only set of raid rules referenced in the Server FAQ in the library.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Who are you referring to ? Give examples of GMs enforcing player-made rules. Do it here, or privately to me.

Back when Fish Bait existed, Draco spawned...

Transcendance had first 15, was clearing, and got first engage on draco. IB had second 15. FB had third. Trans was fighting Draco, it was getting close (a wipe may or may not have happened, uncertain), IB was waiting for them to finish one way or another when FB came in, got the kill, looted and scooted. FB had a few members suspended (might've been salty? and someone, uncertain, you'd hafta ask them) and the loot was removed.

A few weeks back, DA / IB were contesting a CT. IB called 50 minutes? on the two golems. IB waited their 50 minutes and managed to get the 2 golems. IB let DA have draco as per rules. IB was finishing up the trash clear when DA ran in on CT, burnt him down, looted and scooted. Apparently CT summon was (is?) only summoning 1 mob every 3 seconds, instead of all at once, making his summon a joke (with 40 players on a 32k hp mob, anyway). DA had loot removed and a few members suspended (I believe Durison was one of them).

A few quick examples for you Nilbog. On a side note: Is the CT summon fixed yet? he's simply not that dangerous in his current form.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Back when Fish Bait existed, Draco spawned...

Transcendance had first 15, was clearing, and got first engage on draco. IB had second 15. FB had third. Trans was fighting Draco, it was getting close (a wipe may or may not have happened, uncertain), IB was waiting for them to finish one way or another when FB came in, got the kill, looted and scooted. FB had a few members suspended (might've been salty? and someone, uncertain, you'd hafta ask them) and the loot was removed.

A few weeks back, DA / IB were contesting a CT. IB called 50 minutes? on the two golems. IB waited their 50 minutes and managed to get the 2 golems. IB let DA have draco as per rules. IB was finishing up the trash clear when DA ran in on CT, burnt him down, looted and scooted. Apparently CT summon was (is?) only summoning 1 mob every 3 seconds, instead of all at once, making his summon a joke (with 40 players on a 32k hp mob, anyway). DA had loot removed and a few members suspended (I believe Durison was one of them).

A few quick examples for you Nilbog. On a side note: Is the CT summon fixed yet? he's simply not that dangerous in his current form.

I believe in both these instances the petitions were handled by Xzerion.

[Hasbinbad]

Transcendance had first 15, was clearing, and got first engage on draco. IB had second 15. FB had third. Trans was fighting Draco, it was getting close (a wipe may or may not have happened, uncertain), IB was waiting for them to finish one way or another when FB came in, got the kill, looted and scooted. FB had a few members suspended (might've been salty? and someone, uncertain, you'd hafta ask them) and the loot was removed.
^ server rule.

[Hasbinbad]

A few weeks back, DA / IB were contesting a CT. IB called 50 minutes? on the two golems. IB waited their 50 minutes and managed to get the 2 golems. IB let DA have draco as per rules. IB was finishing up the trash clear when DA ran in on CT, burnt him down, looted and scooted. Apparently CT summon was (is?) only summoning 1 mob every 3 seconds, instead of all at once, making his summon a joke (with 40 players on a 32k hp mob, anyway). DA had loot removed and a few members suspended (I believe Durison was one of them).I believe in both these instances the petitions were handled by Xzerion.
Xzerion hasn't been a GM for months.. How could he have handled a petition a couple weeks ago?

[Reiker]

Did anyone post the screenshot of Bumamgar's whole guild getting getting banned from SoD yet?

[Uaellaen]

Xzerion hasn't been a GM for months.. How could he have handled a petition a couple weeks ago?

obviously he is a powerful sorcerer and can travel trought time!

[Xzerion]

The player made rules were agreed on by the guilds who were present when they were made. That said, if another guild doesn't agree to them then that's completely fine. That's what the server rules are there for. I personally find it hard to believe that anyone in the raid scene today does not know about them, but you can also chalk that up to IB's fault I guess for assuming and not checking with WI.

As for today, it wasn't worth the shit-storm that would have ensued with pushing the issue so we just issued the normal warning. They killed it, grats to WI. The only real issue I took with today's happenings was if WI was abiding by the server rules then the raid should have been at the raid target, like the rules say...not at the ledge by fire giants. (Read below before killing me on that one).

If a raiding guild on this server is going to be following the server rules I think that "at the raid target" needs to be more clearly defined. The entire reason these player rules were created was due to perceived gray areas in the server rule set, particularly with where is "the raid target"? Is it a designated pull spot? Is it on the spawn loc? I perceive it to be on the spawn loc, but others feel different, and thus you have a gray area.

Once the camping BS started I thought the easiest thing to do would be to bail on the player rules and go with the server rules again, and I said as much. I don't think you can ever eliminate the possibility of camping in Everquest but at least if your not sitting at a safe spot it will actually require people to play the game more then once every 2-3 days. However, without that clarification as to where a raid has to be in order to lay claim, we are still stuck because every guild will have a different perception of where that is. Hopefully Nilbog's amendment will give some clarification to the entire situation that we are in. But in the meantime I see this as a potential problem unless every guild can agree on where you need to be if the player rules are going to not be followed.

[Rogean]

I think that "at the raid target" needs to be more clearly defined.

We're gonna clear that up pretty soon.

[G13]

Back when Fish Bait existed, Draco spawned...

Transcendance had first 15, was clearing, and got first engage on draco. IB had second 15. FB had third. Trans was fighting Draco, it was getting close (a wipe may or may not have happened, uncertain), IB was waiting for them to finish one way or another when FB came in, got the kill, looted and scooted. FB had a few members suspended (might've been salty? and someone, uncertain, you'd hafta ask them) and the loot was removed.

A few weeks back, DA / IB were contesting a CT. IB called 50 minutes? on the two golems. IB waited their 50 minutes and managed to get the 2 golems. IB let DA have draco as per rules. IB was finishing up the trash clear when DA ran in on CT, burnt him down, looted and scooted. Apparently CT summon was (is?) only summoning 1 mob every 3 seconds, instead of all at once, making his summon a joke (with 40 players on a 32k hp mob, anyway). DA had loot removed and a few members suspended (I believe Durison was one of them).

A few quick examples for you Nilbog. On a side note: Is the CT summon fixed yet? he's simply not that dangerous in his current form.

This is not entirely the truth

Otto was purposely aggroing golems to keep DT's going to slow DA down

That's a violation of the rules

[Otto]

Otto was purposely aggroing golems to keep DT's going to slow DA down

I love it when people publish libel against me.

You're dumb and so is everyone who honestly believes this.

[G13]

I love it when people publish libel against me.

You're dumb and so is everyone who honestly believes this.

Cool story bro

People know the truth. You've done the same thing in Hate. Stop trying to pretend your some honest angel with a halo over your head

[Abacab2]

This is not entirely the truth

Otto was purposely aggroing golems to keep DT's going to slow DA down

That's a violation of the rules


There is no rule that says you can't aggro the golems, it's not training, it's not KSing, in fact it's pretty ingenious

[G13]

There is no rule that says you can't aggro the golems, it's not training, it's not KSing, in fact it's pretty ingenious

You need to re-read the server rules

It specifically states you need to respect the raid. That doesn't mean you exploit DTs to harass them and slow them down on purpose.

[Reiker]

Otto stop aggroing the golems and DTing people in hate. Loser.

[Otto]

Otto stop aggroing the golems and DTing people in hate. Loser.

You got me. Totally my style, time to fess up.

I'm also the OOC spammer and the DDOSer and Abacab.

Whatup.

[G13]

Raid Rules

You must respect other players and raid forces. If a raid force is at a raid target before you are than you are not allowed to engage that monster before they take a shot at it (Within 30 minutes). If that raid fails then you are free to take your shot and so on.


I.E. you are not allowed to aggro a golem to start up death touching while the guild that has claim is working towards it.

[yaaaflow]

Did anyone post the screenshot of Bumamgar's whole guild getting getting banned from SoD yet?

this sounds like a fun story can I hear more?

[Atennu]

Zithax did on our forums actually.

[whitebandit]

Zithax did on our forums actually.

Pictures please

[Rogean]

Pictures please

Negative. We're aware of all of that, we don't need people posting it around these forums. Do that and you WILL be breaching staff insult and I'll lock this thread and ban people.

[Disappointed]

Who are you referring to ? Give examples of GMs enforcing player-made rules. Do it here, or privately to me.

wasn't it like DA's people got banned by a senior guide because of killed CT while IB got the claim?

the case was very similar to this case...DA camped for days...IB roll over with bunch of shit and rules and claim the boss....but DA didn't agree with IB and killed the boss eventually and get banned.

i heard that quite a few officers and loot holder got banned, and loot was deleted

does it count toward to the GMs enforcing player-made rules ?

similar case, different result.

may be DA should start thinking recruiting admin/developer/guide into your guild :cool:

[whitebandit]

Negative. We're aware of all of that, we don't need people posting it around these forums. Do that and you WILL be breaching staff insult and I'll lock this thread and ban people.

yessir, i wasnt aware but thank you for clearing that up.. didnt know anything about the situation.. i just like proof for rumors people claim like that..

[whitebandit]

may be DA should start thinking recruiting admin/developer/guide into your guild :cool:

It does seem like that might be the only way to be one of the top raiding guilds.. without repercussion that is

[Disappointed]

Back when Fish Bait existed, Draco spawned...

Transcendance had first 15, was clearing, and got first engage on draco. IB had second 15. FB had third. Trans was fighting Draco, it was getting close (a wipe may or may not have happened, uncertain), IB was waiting for them to finish one way or another when FB came in, got the kill, looted and scooted. FB had a few members suspended (might've been salty? and someone, uncertain, you'd hafta ask them) and the loot was removed.

A few weeks back, DA / IB were contesting a CT. IB called 50 minutes? on the two golems. IB waited their 50 minutes and managed to get the 2 golems. IB let DA have draco as per rules. IB was finishing up the trash clear when DA ran in on CT, burnt him down, looted and scooted. Apparently CT summon was (is?) only summoning 1 mob every 3 seconds, instead of all at once, making his summon a joke (with 40 players on a 32k hp mob, anyway). DA had loot removed and a few members suspended (I believe Durison was one of them).

A few quick examples for you Nilbog. On a side note: Is the CT summon fixed yet? he's simply not that dangerous in his current form.

ahh yea this is the one....

also i heard that veric got banned for whatever bullshit reason....

well i am not so sure .... but ya people were talking and discussing about this though mumble days before

but ya....pretty sure Guide are (selectively?) enforcing (some?) the rules ... don't know about developer and admin ....

[Disappointed]

You got me. Totally my style, time to fess up.

I'm also the OOC spammer and the DDOSer and Abacab.

Whatup.

ya ya Mr."Naked" Corpse

[Detnogetsovs]

I feel sorry for all of you stupid noobs.

Delete the game, for your own sake.

Stupid noobs.

[whitebandit]

I feel sorry for all of you stupid noobs.

Delete the game, for your own sake.

Stupid noobs.

how is this relevant? like... at all?

[wangerinlee]

I feel sorry for all of you stupid noobs.

Delete the game, for your own sake.

Stupid noobs.


This dude is just posting random bullshit on different threads, none of it makes any sense...

[Bumamgar]

Guess you shouldn't sticky it and keep the title "Official Raid Rules" then.

Not to mention, since the person who posted those rules has been "banned" I disregarded that whole thread till yesterday when folks explained to me that those were the rules people were following in game.

I've read them, and frankly I think they are an overly complicated mess.

I anxiously await Nilbog's update to the official server rules.

However, until that time, I'll simply allow communication with opposing raid forces and fair play to dictate my actions in game. It's worked so far, and until proven otherwise, I see no reason to overly complicate things.

[Supreme]

I smell rotation.

[Detnogetsovs]

how is this relevant? like... at all?

Why should it be relevant? like... already 12 pages of stupid noobs talking about stupid stuff.

I still feel sorry for all of you.

:( :( :(

[Jael]

I NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS GAME EVER EVER EVER EVER SAW GMS STEP IN ON PLAYER RAIDS.

Never on Xegony did this every happen. Not even when we woke up the sleeper . Even then they just waited till he wiped all the zones then they killed him and that was it.

Raids were just madness., you got your people there and you engaged them mob when you engaged it. if someone else came up with the people and attacked it before your raid did you got pissed and hoped they wiped.

Petitioning to a GM about it would result to him/her telling you tough luck.

These people coming up with all this rediculous speculations and time lines and 60 second roll galls. A 60 second roll call? WHat dumb ass started that idea. It takes me longer than 60 econds to take a piss.

Thats a joke. a 30 - 45 minute time window to put up or shut is one thing but that crap about swiping and taking stuff because of a 60 second Rollcall rule is horseshit.. If they gonna engage the mob in 60 seconds whether a raid is there before them or not they just need to man up engage it then loot their crap like the buncha dickheads they are and take the bad PR while not trying to make the other raid feel bad cause they in a Big F'n hurry to be the first ones no matter what.

I have to call Lies on the bolded part. Fess up, if IC wanted a mob, and another guild was there (let's say IS for example) - it was an ALL out battle royal of octagon proportions. There was /shouting /training /KSing /Ninja'ing and all manners of nastiness.

And it was AWESOME.

But let's not pretended it was all Lollipops, Sunshine and Rainbows, Mmmkay? :) Maybe we should've had a 60 second roll call...(although like you, this makes zero sense to me). It may have prevented th emany times both guilds got kicked out of the zone(s) and Havenlight got to kill the mob(s) we wanted. :D:D:D


Also, this means you were either Mantha or Aeon ?

[Reiker]

yessir, i wasnt aware but thank you for clearing that up.. didnt know anything about the situation.. i just like proof for rumors people claim like that..

Not a rumor. A year or two or so ago, SoD went on a banning spree for hackers. GMs specifically stated that while many were banned (something like 4-5% of the server) Wrathful Inquisition was the only guild were basically everyone was using MQ. And then proceeded to ban everyone. Fun screenshot.

[Haynar]

I was skeptical about Bum being a Dev and playing on the server too. But after watching how he has done and especially thanks to this thread, I like him a lot more now.

Haynar

[Humerox]

Not to mention, since the person who posted those rules has been "banned" I disregarded that whole thread till yesterday when folks explained to me that those were the rules people were following in game.

I've read them, and frankly I think they are an overly complicated mess.

I anxiously await Nilbog's update to the official server rules.

However, until that time, I'll simply allow communication with opposing raid forces and fair play to dictate my actions in game. It's worked so far, and until proven otherwise, I see no reason to overly complicate things.

I anxiously await the new rules too.

That overly-complicated mess was because of all the ways people wanted to find to skirt the server rules. Simply that. It was an attempt to clarify raid targets, engagement...yada yada.

Without guild agreement and clarification on things, every Tom, Dick and Harry that sees a loophole in the server rules is going to use it.

That's why it's a seriously good idea to find player-based solutions - in the form a guild agreements - to gray areas. It makes GM participation much less necessary, and I think that's what's wanted.

Without agreement -let the petitions fly.

[Chicka]

I was skeptical about Bum being a Dev and playing on the server too. But after watching how he has done and especially thanks to this thread, I like him a lot more now.

Haynar

Seriously I don't know why (especially being a dev yourself). It seems like there is little one could do to unfairly advantage yourself or your guild as a dev - particularly as it Rogean has pointed out, you don't even have access to live data.

Now me, I don't think I could resist giving all halflings exp every time a gnome died. But that's me.

[Humerox]

And a little addendum to what I said...

Quite a few of you weren't here for all the crying that was going on before the players decided that some sort of clarification on server rules was necessary. Every single raid had some sort of issue. Tons of QQ ensued. GM's were having to step in on nearly every raid. It was a mess then.

Things settled down a bit once everyone adapted the new rules. Until the camping issue.

Now we're going back to what was? Good luck to the GM's...hope your calendars are cleared and you don't plan on doing any coding or development. Or don't you remember how bad it was?

The only thing I can say is, I hope the amendment in the rules puts everything in black and white, because if it doesn't...we go back to the joy that was.

[Loke]

I just want to point out that the player created rules were quoted by GMs as justification for banning of certain members of Dark Ascension. Either enforce them, or don't - but to use them against DA and let WI slide in this instance doesn't semm right.

Bum, since you were asking about a source for whether or not GMs enforce them, there it is. The 2 golems in 50 minutes was cited a number of times by Cyrius as to why DA engaging Cazic Thule made him a contested mob, thus leading to the ban of two individuals.

[Chicka]

I just want to point out that the player created rules were quoted by GMs as justification for banning of certain members of Dark Ascension. Either enforce them, or don't - but to use them against DA and let WI slide in this instance doesn't semm right.

Bum, since you were asking about a source for whether or not GMs enforce them, there it is. The 2 golems in 50 minutes was cited a number of times by Cyrius as to why DA engaging Cazic Thule made him a contested mob, thus leading to the ban of two individuals.

Loke, you must know that is not the whole story, or maybe you don't.

First, you killed Draco, it was your mob after you had failed the 50 min timer on Inny, all good, but then you steamrolled into Inny too after IB had downed the golems and now had claim and needed to clear fear. But of course you, AS A RAID, knew you didn't have to clear fear because your guild leader (dressed as one of his alt accounts - winterfresh) and at least one officer rounded up the fear mobs that came to his aid and trained IB with them as we were clearing - the supporting screenshots almost certainly secured those two bans, no player made rules necessary. And you, AS A RAID, knew you did not have rights to both mobs. Frankly I think you got off lightly as a guild, even in retrospect. I don't know how you got 40-50 people or whatever you had to follow that path - they couldn't have all been ignorant of what was going on.

The big difference between that BS, and what happened with WI is that, whether you like it or not, IB chose not to enforce their rights in the situation, and therefore no rule was broken, player made or otherwise.

[Chicka]

the supporting screenshots almost certainly secured those two bans, no player made rules necessary.

Not bans, suspensions. If they were bans this sort of thing would be a lot less common.

[Bumamgar]

I just want to point out that the player created rules were quoted by GMs as justification for banning of certain members of Dark Ascension. Either enforce them, or don't - but to use them against DA and let WI slide in this instance doesn't semm right.

Bum, since you were asking about a source for whether or not GMs enforce them, there it is. The 2 golems in 50 minutes was cited a number of times by Cyrius as to why DA engaging Cazic Thule made him a contested mob, thus leading to the ban of two individuals.
Just wanted to point out, regardless of GM enforcement of player rules in the past, it is not applicable to this case, since there was no GM involvement. I honestly don't know if the GMs would have enforced the 60 second roll call or not. My gut says no, but I don't really know for sure. However, the facts are, IB chose not to make an issue of it, did not involve the GMs and so it's a non-issue. There's no "either enforce them or don't" or "use them against DA and let WI slide" scenario here, as far as GMs are concerned.

Now if you were referring to IB deciding to not "enforce" the player made 60 second roll call on WI, but pushing the issue in the past with DA, well, that's an issue of player communication and intra-guild politics, and I'm sure has to do with history between the guilds involved. Just like you might give free rezzes/buffs to some people, and ignore others, based on your history with them. Nothing shady there, no one says each guild has to treat every other guild the same way all the time.

[Starklen]

Not to mention, since the person who posted those rules has been "banned" I disregarded that whole thread till yesterday when folks explained to me that those were the rules people were following in game.

I've read them, and frankly I think they are an overly complicated mess.

I anxiously await Nilbog's update to the official server rules.

However, until that time, I'll simply allow communication with opposing raid forces and fair play to dictate my actions in game. It's worked so far, and until proven otherwise, I see no reason to overly complicate things.

You talk a pretty big talk for a speck of piss on the server toilet seat. Weren't you banned from SoD for cheating? Should we disregard everything you say because you were banned?

[G13]

Loke, you must know that is not the whole story, or maybe you don't.

Either you're being purposely disingenuous or you are completely ignorant as to what actually happened

First, you killed Draco, it was your mob after you had failed the 50 min timer on Inny, all good, but then you steamrolled into Inny too after IB had downed the golems and now had claim and needed to clear fear. But of course you, AS A RAID, knew you didn't have to clear fear because your guild leader (dressed as one of his alt accounts - winterfresh) and at least one officer rounded up the fear mobs that came to his aid and trained IB with them as we were clearing - the supporting screenshots almost certainly secured those two bans, no player made rules necessary. And you, AS A RAID, knew you did not have rights to both mobs. Frankly I think you got off lightly as a guild, even in retrospect. I don't know how you got 40-50 people or whatever you had to follow that path - they couldn't have all been ignorant of what was going on.

IB violated the raid rules by engaging the golems to trigger consistent death touches. This was done by Otto, to slow down DA as they worked towards the golems. This is in direct violation of Nilbog's rules. Not the player made rules. Nilbog's rules since it states clearly you are absolutely supposed to respect the raid and not attempt to engage the mob they are going for. in this instance, the mobs DA was going for were the golems and your guild purposely aggroed them with a rogue to initiate zone wide death touches from CT. This was done to prevent DA from killing the golems within 50 minutes.

By violating the raid rules, you forfeited your rights to any potential claim. Those are the facts.

The big difference between that BS, and what happened with WI is that, whether you like it or not, IB chose not to enforce their rights in the situation, and therefore no rule was broken, player made or otherwise.

In all honesty WI opened up a can of worms. It wasn't up to IB to enforce anything. IB didn't have a leg to stand on since Nilbog has stated he doesn't recognize player made rules. Now as to whether Cyrius or Feiel would have acted differently remains to be seen. I don't even want to begin to speculate, given the questionable past of said GMs.

[guineapig]

The most useful information I have gathered from this thread:

your guild leader (dressed as one of his alt accounts - winterfresh)

If sincerely hope that this is false and Winterfresh isn't actually running DA...

:p

[Hogwash]

http://www.bartcop.com/bedfellows.jpg
Can't we all just get along?

[iamjack]

Loke, you must know that is not the whole story, or maybe you don't.

First, you killed Draco, it was your mob after you had failed the 50 min timer on Inny, all good, but then you steamrolled into Inny too after IB had downed the golems and now had claim and needed to clear fear. But of course you, AS A RAID, knew you didn't have to clear fear because your guild leader (dressed as one of his alt accounts - winterfresh) and at least one officer rounded up the fear mobs that came to his aid and trained IB with them as we were clearing - the supporting screenshots almost certainly secured those two bans, no player made rules necessary. And you, AS A RAID, knew you did not have rights to both mobs. Frankly I think you got off lightly as a guild, even in retrospect. I don't know how you got 40-50 people or whatever you had to follow that path - they couldn't have all been ignorant of what was going on.

The big difference between that BS, and what happened with WI is that, whether you like it or not, IB chose not to enforce their rights in the situation, and therefore no rule was broken, player made or otherwise.

first of all, it is CT, not Inny.....CT in POF....Inny in POH...

you must know that is not the whole story, or maybe you don't.

well do u know why DA failed the 50 min timer on CT?
just becoz you guys playing dirty trick and keep aggoing Golem and start the DT...and force DA to camp out and burn our timer to zero.
of coz, the one who did it going to say i am innocent, and people publish libel against him..

we are not guide or admin =D we can't send a guy to collect the evidence without being attack/DT/sneak and we only find his geared body second before we pull the moment we pull the second golem...of coz someone is going to say it looks like a naked one to me and it problly be there for days...but it doesn't matter now... there is no point to argue... even if we prove it and we win, it is not going to change anything ... we still had our bans but we learnt how to take a better screenshot so next time when this shit happen, we are going to take better screenshot and pin you guys down.

[Phallax]

The most useful information I have gathered from this thread:



If sincerely hope that this is false and Winterfresh isn't actually running DA...

:p

Winterfresh is Durison, so yea.

[Supreme]

Either you're being purposely disingenuous or you are completely ignorant as to what actually happened



IB violated the raid rules by engaging the golems to trigger consistent death touches. This was done by Otto, to slow down DA as they worked towards the golems. This is in direct violation of Nilbog's rules. Not the player made rules. Nilbog's rules since it states clearly you are absolutely supposed to respect the raid and not attempt to engage the mob they are going for. in this instance, the mobs DA was going for were the golems and your guild purposely aggroed them with a rogue to initiate zone wide death touches from CT. This was done to prevent DA from killing the golems within 50 minutes.

By violating the raid rules, you forfeited your rights to any potential claim. Those are the facts.



In all honesty WI opened up a can of worms. It wasn't up to IB to enforce anything. IB didn't have a leg to stand on since Nilbog has stated he doesn't recognize player made rules. Now as to whether Cyrius or Feiel would have acted differently remains to be seen. I don't even want to begin to speculate, given the questionable past of said GMs.

Based on this post i official ask for a server title to be bestowed on a new usergroup called "Raid Rules Lawyer" so that we can have a body to uphold the letter and the spirit of the rules!

Plus i need short summaries and not wall of texts.

[Loke]

Loke, you must know that is not the whole story, or maybe you don't.

First, you killed Draco, it was your mob after you had failed the 50 min timer on Inny, all good, but then you steamrolled into Inny too after IB had downed the golems and now had claim and needed to clear fear. But of course you, AS A RAID, knew you didn't have to clear fear because your guild leader (dressed as one of his alt accounts - winterfresh) and at least one officer rounded up the fear mobs that came to his aid and trained IB with them as we were clearing - the supporting screenshots almost certainly secured those two bans, no player made rules necessary. And you, AS A RAID, knew you did not have rights to both mobs. Frankly I think you got off lightly as a guild, even in retrospect. I don't know how you got 40-50 people or whatever you had to follow that path - they couldn't have all been ignorant of what was going on.

The big difference between that BS, and what happened with WI is that, whether you like it or not, IB chose not to enforce their rights in the situation, and therefore no rule was broken, player made or otherwise.

I assure you that I never come here and talk about things without knowing the full story. I am very careful in what I say - it just so happens that people often fail to take the same care when reading what I say.

I stipulated two (2) bans, because only two of the suspensions that occured from that incident were a result of DA not following player made rules as the GM understood them. There were a total of four (4) suspensions.

I assure you that I know the whole story.

[Cyrius]

Either you're being purposely disingenuous or you are completely ignorant as to what actually happened



IB violated the raid rules by engaging the golems to trigger consistent death touches. This was done by Otto, to slow down DA as they worked towards the golems. This is in direct violation of Nilbog's rules. Not the player made rules. Nilbog's rules since it states clearly you are absolutely supposed to respect the raid and not attempt to engage the mob they are going for. in this instance, the mobs DA was going for were the golems and your guild purposely aggroed them with a rogue to initiate zone wide death touches from CT. This was done to prevent DA from killing the golems within 50 minutes.

By violating the raid rules, you forfeited your rights to any potential claim. Those are the facts.



In all honesty WI opened up a can of worms. It wasn't up to IB to enforce anything. IB didn't have a leg to stand on since Nilbog has stated he doesn't recognize player made rules. Now as to whether Cyrius or Feiel would have acted differently remains to be seen. I don't even want to begin to speculate, given the questionable past of said GMs.

Please, be my guest. I asked numerous times for evidence that Otto disrupted your raid. You failed to provide this, i did not receive a single conclusive piece of evidence from you. The evidence of the other 4 breaking server rules was uncontestable.

I do not enforce player rules. The only thing i ever did for you guys was tell you my interpretation of the player made rules on a fear raid where both guilds asked me to. After that i received tells from both guilds that they are fine now.

[Humerox]

IB violated the raid rules by engaging the golems to trigger consistent death touches. This was done by Otto, to slow down DA as they worked towards the golems. This is in direct violation of Nilbog's rules. Not the player made rules.

Playing the Devil's advocate here, it's not in violation of server rules. Server rules say not a damn thing about strategy or tactics preventing or inhibiting engagement of a raid mob.

It's wrong, but would require GM intervention under the server rules to clarify, if someone wanted to be asinine enough to do it. And nothing under the server rules would prevent someone from doing the exact same thing another time.

[Loke]

The evidence of the other 4 breaking server rules was uncontestable.


I would, and have vehemently disagreed with this statement. 3 of the 6 suspensions that DA has recieved in the past month or so are more than justified (training, training and 2-boxing) - those three people deserved their suspensions and no one from DA argued otherwise.

However, the other 3:
1) Being a raid leader
2) Training... no; wait, being a raid leader... no; wait, looting a contested mob!
3) Accidental training that even the guild that was trained agreed was taken out of context.

Are in no way stipulated as reasons for suspension in the server rules and was extremely contestable.

That is neither here nor there though and is in the past.

[G13]

Playing the Devil's advocate here, it's not in violation of server rules. Server rules say not a damn thing about strategy or tactics preventing or inhibiting engagement of a raid mob.

It's wrong, but would require GM intervention under the server rules to clarify, if someone wanted to be asinine enough to do it. And nothing under the server rules would prevent someone from doing the exact same thing another time.

Please re-read Nilbog's raid rules. Here let me go ahead and provide them to you. The rules absolutely stipulate you are to respect the raid. That means staying out the way and not interfering until the timer is up. That didn't happen.

You must respect other players and raid forces. If a raid force is at a raid target before you are than you are not allowed to engage that monster before they take a shot at it (Within 30 minutes). If that raid fails then you are free to take your shot and so on.

If a raid force is at the raid target and you begin gathering your own forces you are required to give the raid for that was there first a grace period of 30 minutes. Upon the arrival of your own raid force you must give them a 30 minute warning. If after 25 minutes they have not engaged the creature then you are free to give them a final 5 minute warning. After the 30 minutes are up you are free to engage the creature (Screenshots and logs of your attempted communication will be required).

The golems were technically the intended raid target since they are required to be killed within 50 minutes to kill CT. Using a rogue to instigate death touches over and over is a form of harassment to the guild going for said mobs. Secondly, it states you are not to engage the target the guild is going for. Instigating death touches from CT, the ultimate target we're speaking of here, is ENGAGING the target. Hence, a violation of the raid rules. If DA had done this I'd call BS also. I don't speak for DA or any other guild on this server. I just can't sit back and allow people to lie through their teeth without calling them out on their BS.

And I'm not touching Cyrius' post with a 10 foot pole. We're not allowed to question a GM decision apparently, regardless how much it defies logic. I've seen the evidence and it was more than conclusive. I'll leave it at that. He chose to ignore it for whatever reason. Probably for the same reasons he 100% GM resed Abacab after he purposely trained Tranix to royals, killing many people in the process.

[Bumamgar]

Loke: you can hold it without using your hands, what is it?

[Supreme]

Probably for the same reasons he 100% GM resed Abacab after he purposely trained Tranix to royals, killing many people in the process.

Or maybe he just does not like you?

[Humerox]

Please re-read Nilbog's raid rules. Here let me go ahead and provide them to you. The rules absolutely stipulate you are to respect the raid. That means staying out the way and not interfering until the timer is up. That didn't happen.



The golems were technically the intended raid target since they are required to be killed within 50 minutes to kill CT. Using a rogue to instigate death touches over and over is a form of harassment to the guild going for said mobs. Secondly, it states you are not to engage the target the guild is going for. Instigating death touches from CT, the ultimate target we're speaking of here, is ENGAGING the target. Hence, a violation of the raid rules. If DA had done this I'd call BS also. I don't speak for DA or any other guild on this server. I just can't sit back and allow people to lie through their teeth without calling them out on their BS.

And I'm not touching Cyrius' post with a 10 foot pole. We're not allowed to question a GM decision apparently, regardless how much it defies logic. I've seen the evidence and it was more than conclusive. I'll leave it at that. He chose to ignore it for whatever reason. Probably for the same reasons he 100% GM resed Abacab after he purposely trained Tranix to royals, killing many people in the process.

Don't think I don't agree with you on this point, G. I do.

What I'm trying to say is these are the reasons guilds got together to clarify as many situations as they possibly could, in order to prevent asinine moves without GM intervention.

With the server rules, "disruptions" is ambiguous, and generalized. Don't think that every scrub around won't take advantage of it, because they have.

It was the entire reason guilds got together and tried to clarify the rules to begin with.

That's all I'm saying, lol.

[Loke]

Loke: you can hold it without using your hands, what is it?

Haha

[Humerox]

Respect is generalized and ambiguous I meant.

[Beau]

I would, and have vehemently disagreed with this statement. 3 of the 6 suspensions that DA has recieved in the past month or so are more than justified (training, training and 2-boxing) - those three people deserved their suspensions and no one from DA argued otherwise.

However, the other 3:
1) Being a raid leader
2) Training... no; wait, being a raid leader... no; wait, looting a contested mob!
3) Accidental training that even the guild that was trained agreed was taken out of context.

Are in no way stipulated as reasons for suspension in the server rules and was extremely contestable.

That is neither here nor there though and is in the past.

As far as number 3 is concerned, the world "accidental" means nothing to most people when you have reputations for being pieces of shit. Especially when there is evidence to back up otherwise. The other two I wont even waste my time commenting on.

As for the other two... Just simply referencing two incidents with vague and incomplete statements doesn't argue one's innocence. It just makes you look like a whining child.

[Beau]

That's funny, I said I wouldn't waste my time commenting, and then I did. Oh well, prolly better that I saved someone else the time of saying the obvious.

[Loke]

As far as number 3 is concerned, the world "accidental" means nothing to most people when you have reputations for being pieces of shit. Especially when there is evidence to back up otherwise. The other two I wont even waste my time commenting on.

As for the other two... Just simply referencing two incidents with vague and incomplete statements doesn't argue one's innocence. It just makes you look like a whining child.

Oh hay, way to have no idea what you're talking about.

Apparently accidental does mean a lot when it is coming from the mouth of the guild leader and officers of the guild that was trained. They agreed that the suspension was unjustified and even had the class to contact server staff stating so.

As for the other instances - I was purposefully being vague as I doubt the server staff OR the people involved would appreciate all sorts of details being brought up in a public forum. The people my post was meant for have all the details and I'm sure fully understand what I was trying to say... you just don't happen to be one of those people.

[Loke]

As for accidental training - it happens and everyone knows it. Just last night DA accidentally trained IB in PoFear... instead of petitioning or crying to GMs, people handled it like adults in private and at least as far as IB and DA were concerned, everything was resolved.

It isn't just us either - DA was trained by the same guild 2 times in less than 3hours in PoFear the other week. Again, it as handled in private and everyone agreed that it was accidental.

ACCIDENTS DO HAPPEN.

[quido]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MLqqW8eCB4U/0.jpg

My god did that smell good...

[Beau]

Oh hay, way to have no idea what you're talking about.

Apparently accidental does mean a lot when it is coming from the mouth of the guild leader and officers of the guild that was trained. They agreed that the suspension was unjustified and even had the class to contact server staff stating so.

As for the other instances - I was purposefully being vague as I doubt the server staff OR the people involved would appreciate all sorts of details being brought up in a public forum. The people my post was meant for have all the details and I'm sure fully understand what I was trying to say... you just don't happen to be one of those people.

Then it's probably completely pointless to even bring them up. And on top of that, listing them out like they have some sort of meaning or value really serves no purpose either.

The truth is a lot of your members have/had shit that is/was a long time coming. You can't spend several months being absolute garbage as a whole and expect ANYONE to sympathize with you when you put up vague and meaningless garbage. If you want to quote me again and tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about go ahead and take the next few minutes to read through these forums posts for the last few months and note how much your piece of shit establishment is loved.

I love how you are always on the boards feigning innocence for every little thing. Most good officers in what they perceive to be good and legitimate guilds, especially at the end game and competitive level, have enough common sense to ignore false claims on rants and flames boards. But yet here you are, all the time, contesting innocence to the masses, like its some sort of political battle. But then, make no mistake, i'm sure no one is lumping you into that category.

[Loke]

I really have no idea who you are or what your guild affiliation is, but I think if you believe every claim on this board - you're ridiculous. Every guild on this server has been ranted - and the more successful a guild is, the more haters are going to hate. It wasn't that long ago that I was getting messages from people in Divinity and Remedy congratulating us on beating IB to mobs, because back then IB was the big bad evil guild.

As far as me posting here - maybe I like to argue. I also like to call people out when they post ridiculous, untruth claims about my guild. In regards to me being an officer - the results of my actions since being made an officer speak for themselves.

Feel free to keep grinding that axe though bro.

[Bones]

3 of the 6 suspensions that DA has recieved in the past month or so are more than justified (training, training and 2-boxing) - those three people deserved their suspensions and no one from DA argued otherwise.
So how are people getting caught 2-boxing and only getting a slap on the wrist with a suspension?

[Loke]

So how are people getting caught 2-boxing and only getting a slap on the wrist with a suspension?

No, that was my bad. That person was banned. Although the person was actually 3 boxing and using an account of another member of our guild. The account of that member was only suspended because he was not a part of the boxing and it was taking place without his knowledge. He served his suspension and was allowed to return to the server.

But no, the actual person boxing and the accounts of that person were perm banned.

[CazicThule]

Please re-read Nilbog's raid rules. Here let me go ahead and provide them to you. The rules absolutely stipulate you are to respect the raid. That means staying out the way and not interfering until the timer is up. That didn't happen.



The golems were technically the intended raid target since they are required to be killed within 50 minutes to kill CT. Using a rogue to instigate death touches over and over is a form of harassment to the guild going for said mobs. Secondly, it states you are not to engage the target the guild is going for. Instigating death touches from CT, the ultimate target we're speaking of here, is ENGAGING the target. Hence, a violation of the raid rules. If DA had done this I'd call BS also. I don't speak for DA or any other guild on this server. I just can't sit back and allow people to lie through their teeth without calling them out on their BS.


And I'm not touching Cyrius' post with a 10 foot pole. We're not allowed to question a GM decision apparently, regardless how much it defies logic. I've seen the evidence and it was more than conclusive. I'll leave it at that. He chose to ignore it for whatever reason. Probably for the same reasons he 100% GM resed Abacab after he purposely trained Tranix to royals, killing many people in the process.

Why u hating on Cyrius bro? and werent u guilded with Abacab? Yeah Mr G13 i know who you are. your very 2 faced and thats pretty sad im glad u guys been getting fucked im rooting for you WI guys keep up the good run

[CazicThule]

No, that was my bad. That person was banned. Although the person was actually 3 boxing and using an account of another member of our guild. The account of that member was only suspended because he was not a part of the boxing and it was taking place without his knowledge. He served his suspension and was allowed to return to the server.

But no, the actual person boxing and the accounts of that person were perm banned.

I know there are a couple other people in ur guild boxing not yet caught yet so im sure more bans will be inc soon :)

[Bones]

No, that was my bad. That person was banned. Although the person was actually 3 boxing and using an account of another member of our guild. The account of that member was only suspended because he was not a part of the boxing and it was taking place without his knowledge. He served his suspension and was allowed to return to the server.

But no, the actual person boxing and the accounts of that person were perm banned.
Ah, that makes sense. And lol @ 3 boxing..

[Beau]

I'm not trying to keep secrets and post anonymously. This just happens to be the account name I made before creating my character. My character Is Viscious, and I have seen and dealt with a lot of your shit first hand. I don't need to say my guild, if you know it thats fine, but mostly because my statements completely reflect my own opinion. I also have absolutely ZERO history of any shenanigans whatsoever on this server and not even the of affiliation with any sort of foul play.

And you're right, accidental trains happen. But when you play at the level you seem to think you are, then common sense dictates that it's probably better to just eat a solo death than potentially wipe an entire group of people. No one in your guild is ignorant of where people afk camped. So one person might have been innocent for a change? Sucks they had to pay for the crimes of your past reputation as a whole. Perceived innocence is not building a reputation off getting what you want by training and wiping raids, crashing zones, duping items, or boxing.

Think long and hard, if you were a gm, and you have the evidence that was presented, after all the shit you have to put up with coming from an organization like that. Would you honestly have ruled any different?
When you can answer that question honestly, you're on the way to becoming a better group as a whole.

So it kinda falls back on what I said earlier.


As far as number 3 is concerned, the world "accidental" means nothing to most people when you have reputations for being pieces of shit. Especially when there is evidence to back up otherwise.

I'm probably the easiest guy to get along with, but after a while I get fed up with the same old shit.

[Comfortably]

The big difference between that BS, and what happened with WI is that, whether you like it or not, IB chose not to enforce their rights in the situation, and therefore no rule was broken, player made or otherwise.

^ all we've been looking for this whole time.

[Uaellaen]

It wasn't that long ago that I was getting messages from people in Divinity and Remedy congratulating us on beating IB to mobs, because back then IB was the big bad evil guild.


im quite sure that this happened on the beginning, where you did not perma camp but actualy tried to race and were faster then IB once ... so of course you get congratulations for winning fair and square over the established guild ...

this doesnt mean that IB is the devil and you are the best thou ... its sad that you have to get down to such a level and drag in remedy and divinity in every one of your little rant posts because those 2 guilds are actualy trying to stay out of the drama YOUR guild creates ...

[CazicThule]

im quite sure that this happened on the beginning, where you did not perma camp but actualy tried to race and were faster then IB once ... so of course you get congratulations for winning fair and square over the established guild ...

this doesnt mean that IB is the devil and you are the best thou ... its sad that you have to get down to such a level and drag in remedy and divinity in every one of your little rant posts because those 2 guilds are actualy trying to stay out of the drama YOUR guild creates ...

Nah your not actually trying to stay out of the drama werent u involved one time in fear because xzerion said something about a 3rd party needs to be involved? and u were trying to say how the rules went etc?

[Uaellaen]

Nah your not actually trying to stay out of the drama werent u involved one time in fear because xzerion said something about a 3rd party needs to be involved? and u were trying to say how the rules went etc?

yeah i was asked my xzerion and durison what i think the rules say. .. i told both ... i was never in the zone or anything ... i was participating in creating those rules so i was asked to clearify ...

if you cann that "involved" .. fine

[Uaellaen]

asked by* and i hate no edit function to correct my shit spelling while i play

[CazicThule]

yeah i was asked my xzerion and durison what i think the rules say. .. i told both ... i was never in the zone or anything ... i was participating in creating those rules so i was asked to clearify ...

if you cann that "involved" .. fine

yeah its all good u had no clue what u were talking about then anyways you still dont even know what your talking about now so why do u post?

[Uaellaen]

yeah its all good u had no clue what u were talking about then anyways you still dont even know what your talking about now so why do u post?

yeah right, you know it better since you were there on the 5 hour meeting where we created those rules =) go to hell and fuck your self, im fed up with you trolls

[CazicThule]

yeah right, you know it better since you were there on the 5 hour meeting where we created those rules =) go to hell and fuck your self, im fed up with you trolls

Actaully i was dumbass :)

[Uaellaen]

so how about you post without hiding your identity then mister anonymous troll? hows that? too scared?

[Uaellaen]

yeah figured you would be too scared ...

[CazicThule]

yeah figured you would be too scared ...

Lol yeah to scared :(