Critical Suggestions for Raid Rules

[Supreme]

This is a constructive thread to add constructive ideas for a raid system to end perma camping.


I will start with some ultra radical ideas!


-remove loot from raid bosses
-make raid zones open/racial PVP
-Boss DT's everyone in the zone and full repops the zone on SPAWN.
-increase raid size definition to be 30 instead of 15.
-AFK disconnects/banish.
-increase boss spawns by number/rate
-open another server
-instanced zones that take plat to activate for guilds



If you would like to flame please create a thread in R&F. I would be interested in seeing some out of the box thinking.

[Cogwell]

You should make suggestions that don't involve necessitating the developers to hire divorce attorneys and inquire as to the availabilities of their parents' basements.

[Kinamur1999]

The guild with the most gnomes at the raid gets the target

[Virtuosos]

more randomized spawning, change it and dont tell anybody about it....could be fun to kill CT and while working out loot, have him pop again :D

[Nedala]

more randomized spawning, change it and dont tell anybody about it....could be fun to kill CT and while working out loot, have him pop again :D

seriosuly....random spawns ftw imo.

[Holey]

This is a constructive thread to add constructive ideas for a raid system to end perma camping.


I will start with some ultra radical ideas!
-increase raid size definition to be 30 instead of 15.




If you would like to flame please create a thread in R&F. I would be interested in seeing some out of the box thinking.
this is a good idea :D

[Remiel]

I really like the following idea:

A. +/- 7 days spawn variance (with raid mobs literally having a chance to pop anytime after it has been killed, no matter how small that probability is).
B. First To Engage rule on all raid bosses. But more clarity is needed on this rule. For example there could be situations where 1 or 2 players can pull a raid boss and die, but by doing that allowing their guild to claim the first priority on kill.

the 7 days spawn variance will probably NOT abolish poopsocking completely (i believe), but it does substantially discourage poopsocking. Moreso since it's now an FTE rule. Also it does give guilds with better mobilisation an edge to killing raid bosses.

[Skope]

this is a good idea :D

Sure, let's give them another reason to mass recruit!
Targets have been camped with as many as 40-50 from a single guild in a zone at once, 30 is an easily attainable number that doesn't address the issue.

Most number of gnomes per raid force gets first dibs on target.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Sure, let's give them another reason to mass recruit!
Targets have been camped with as many as 40-50 from a single guild in a zone at once, 30 is an easily attainable number that doesn't address the issue.

Most number of rangers per raid force gets first dibs on target.

Fixed it for ya!

[PhelanKA]

I like the FFA PVP idea. Might even get some /guildwars outta it ;)

[Bones]

-Boss DT's everyone in the zone and full repops the zone on SPAWN.

I like this.

[Starklen]

Fear already fully repops on a CT spawn.

[maximum]

Solution: do something else (tradeskills, alts, go outside) while waiting for airplane and Kunark

[darkblade717]

more randomized spawning, change it and dont tell anybody about it....could be fun to kill CT and while working out loot, have him pop again :D

Not telling anyone won't work as some of the people who would be doing the actual coding are in the guilds causing the problems.

[nilbog]

Not telling anyone won't work as some of the people who would be doing the actual coding are in the guilds causing the problems.

Nope. Coding has nothing to do with the knowledge of npcs spawning.

[Aeolwind]

This is a constructive thread to add constructive ideas for a raid system to end perma camping.


I will start with some ultra radical ideas!


-remove loot from raid bosses
-make raid zones open/racial PVP
-Boss DT's everyone in the zone and full repops the zone on SPAWN.
-increase raid size definition to be 30 instead of 15.
-AFK disconnects/banish.
-increase boss spawns by number/rate
-open another server
-instanced zones that take plat to activate for guilds



If you would like to flame please create a thread in R&F. I would be interested in seeing some out of the box thinking.

None of these involve less work for us. And we as the dev staff do not support any of these suggestions.

The raid situation is a player problem, not a development problem or bug. The current ruleset is in place because folks can't act like 7 year olds and not fight over the toys.

And Darkblade, enjoy your 30 day ban for trolling. You've been warned enough. You seriously need to shut your mouth on subjects you have not a damn clue as to the workings of.

[rioisk]

*pulls out the popcorn* Another raid thread!

No but seriously total randomization = more extensive poopsocking. Everybody here must realize that many people returning to EQ classic after 10 years are diehards. These sad people have minimal existence outside the game - they live to poopsock. No system aside from forced rotation will stop their ruthless efforts to get gear on an emulated server from 10 years ago.

[Supreme]

None of these involve less work for us. And we as the dev staff do not support any of these suggestions.

The raid situation is a player problem, not a development problem or bug. The current ruleset is in place because folks can't act like 7 year olds and not fight over the toys.

And Darkblade, enjoy your 30 day ban for trolling. You've been warned enough. You seriously need to shut your mouth on subjects you have not a damn clue as to the workings of.

There are a couple that really only involve the players. But i am trying to scratch up some ideas...even bad ones...that might spark something we are missing.

Honestly the more that i talk to people about it the more things become clear.

There are two root issues with the raids. You have either Rotation or a FTC(first to camp). The FTC, which is our current system is only going to be effective until there are enough guilds to permacamp every raid boss. Once that happens then a rotation will go into place and perhaps then we can get the spawn timer to be 5-7 days instead of 5-9 with a 2 hour engagement window. Camping will only be for those guilds that the spawn belongs to but the fact is that guilds like Trans/Remedy/Divinity have no plan to get up at 3am to kill Gods/Dragons. So something like this *could* work.

[Straif]

And Darkblade, enjoy your 30 day ban for trolling. You've been warned enough. You seriously need to shut your mouth on subjects you have not a damn clue as to the workings of.

Aeolwind to Darkblade
http://trollcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shut_your_whore_mouth_trollcat.jpg

bahahahaha!

[Skope]

But even with the rules we have now we've seen GM interference, and the majority of it stemming from the two guilds who are doing all the camping. Considering the kind of crap we've seen (from ninjalooting, to training and intentional zone crashing) nothing short of some serious ban hammers or a guild disband will teach them to play nice.

[Otto]

But even with the rules we have now we've seen GM interference, and the majority of it stemming from the two guilds who are doing all the camping. Considering the kind of crap we've seen (from ninjalooting, to training and intentional zone crashing) nothing short of some serious ban hammers or a guild disband will teach them to play nice.

Quoted for truth.

I was close to saying I want a rotation, but then I remembered that only the hardcore should be getting the raid mobs. It looks like there are some people on this server who just want it more than others.

Poopsock or go home =(

[Noleafclover]

I like the full variance idea.

My idea is making camping illegal (SS of camping results in warning/suspension) but 15 still claims once a boss is spawned.

Pure FFA's problem is that multiple guilds would camp without a claim, and then who knows who tagged first. Headache for the GMs to clean up.

[astarothel]

My idea is making camping illegal (SS of camping results in warning/suspension)

rofl.

[Bardzilla]

wouldn't simply removing the 30 minute of 'free time' after a boss spawn take care of a lot of issues? No incentive to afk camp if another guild can zone in when it spawns and say pull now or we are going to. Guilds could still camp the spawn, but if they were not ready to pull when it spawned, another guild could take the prize.

[Uaellaen]

if you are sitting more then 15 minutes in an area without casting a spell / fighting or typing you get flagged "AFK", if you are AFK for another 15 minutes you get disconnected from the server ... tada 80% of the campers go LD every 30 minutes....

[Skope]

if you are sitting more then 15 minutes in an area without casting a spell / fighting or typing you get flagged "AFK", if you are AFK for another 15 minutes you get disconnected from the server ... tada 80% of the campers go LD every 30 minutes....

There are some easy ways to avoid that and unfortunately it would be through the use of third-party programs. It also doesn't solve the the inherent problem of poopsocking, either. it would require more GM scripting and more work for them to do, which isn't what we're looking for, either.

[Supreme]

Quoted for truth.

I was close to saying I want a rotation, but then I remembered that only the hardcore should be getting the raid mobs. It looks like there are some people on this server who just want it more than others.

Poopsock or go home =(

There are 4 guilds that are "poopsocking". Given another week that number could be 5. That will then force guilds to camp a boss even AFTER they just killed it.

The rotation needs to be such that there are standards set to even be consider part of the rotation. There also must some kind of spawn variance (which we have) and then some kind of restrictive window of opprotunity.

The problem you guys had with rotation was not that Trans was getting "spoon fed" it was that Naggy could spawn and it would be left up until it was convenient for us to kill and vice versa. This was an inherit problem that could have easily been fixed by simply adding a 2 hour opportunity window. This window was the time that was GIVEN to a rotation guild to kill the boss. I think we could actually even get the GMs to spawn raid boss and setup a "RACE TO KILL" competition. Something that would actually be FUN for GMs/Devs/Players to be involved with!

Now people are already saying but but that does not offer a CLEAR resolution as we want to be number 1 on p1999!

Well lets set some standards by which you can be ranked...Fastest kill...fewest people kill...fewest people that died kill...fastest clear...WHATEVER! If we wanted to we could do it by seasons or even have some kind of raid "league" to promote competition.

There are so many ideas and things we can do if we just take some time to think about it. I am sure with all the time spent camping these bosses that someone can think of a solid system.

[Supreme]

if you are sitting more then 15 minutes in an area without casting a spell / fighting or typing you get flagged "AFK", if you are AFK for another 15 minutes you get disconnected from the server ... tada 80% of the campers go LD every 30 minutes....

We need to develop a system that requires no developer/GM intervention or coding.

[Humwawa]

We need to develop a system that requires no developer/GM intervention or coding.

I'm pretty sure this has been said by the devs since the beginning, only nobody wants to cooperate with each other. I am all for anything at all that will stop this ridiculous camping bullshit. I hate it. Bring on race wars, make it FFA, I don't care - I want to play the game, not AFK through it.

When I say nobody wants to cooperate, I do mean nobody. Unlike most of you, I'm not making some half-assed, veiled insult to IB or DA. So let's not be petty, and try to actually change things.

I myself am all for FFA. My views are not necessarily the views of my guild, and I do not speak for Dark Ascension.

[Hasbinbad]

7 day +/- 7 day variance would only lead to 14 day camps and more splitforce multizone camps of the same guilds that are camping shit now..

When variance combined with camping bosses was first proposed, I was a huge detractor. I pointed out that people would be camping shit for a week straight. I pointed out that whoever had a force of people to sit in a zone longest would win. Everyone said "noooo hasbinbad, don't be dumb, people won't be that retarded.." but here we are.

Now you say that a longer variance will fix the problem, I say that it will simply lead to 14 day camps.

We need a completely innovative and player-run solution if there is to be any change. Player-run rotation, player-run boss draft, .. I suggested a weekly duel or some form of weekly pve skill test for 1st draft of bosses, but nobody could agree on anything because everyone's egos were blotting out the light of the sun.

As far as your other ideas, they are pretty far fetched man.. Nobody wants the server to be flooded with loot, the bluebies won't agree to a zone pvp flag system, instancing is retarded, much of it is non-classic or just non-eq in general (this is a classic eq server, if you want custom content, there are many other emus you can join), and all of it requires GM work / intervention, which they have stated they don't wanna do..

I think that the time is ripe for a solution, but I think it should be something that fits within the p99 vision and is player-enforced, otherwise yer just barking at the moon.

[Holey]

We need to develop a system that requires no developer/GM intervention or coding.

IKR! AGREE ^

[Supreme]

7 day +/- 7 day variance would only lead to 14 day camps and more splitforce multizone camps of the same guilds that are camping shit now..

When variance combined with camping bosses was first proposed, I was a huge detractor. I pointed out that people would be camping shit for a week straight. I pointed out that whoever had a force of people to sit in a zone longest would win. Everyone said "noooo hasbinbad, don't be dumb, people won't be that retarded.." but here we are.

Now you say that a longer variance will fix the problem, I say that it will simply lead to 14 day camps.

We need a completely innovative and player-run solution if there is to be any change. Player-run rotation, player-run boss draft, .. I suggested a weekly duel or some form of weekly pve skill test for 1st draft of bosses, but nobody could agree on anything because everyone's egos were blotting out the light of the sun.

As far as your other ideas, they are pretty far fetched man.. Nobody wants the server to be flooded with loot, the bluebies won't agree to a zone pvp flag system, instancing is retarded, much of it is non-classic or just non-eq in general (this is a classic eq server, if you want custom content, there are many other emus you can join), and all of it requires GM work / intervention, which they have stated they don't wanna do..

I think that the time is ripe for a solution, but I think it should be something that fits within the p99 vision and is player-enforced, otherwise yer just barking at the moon.

Ok who are you and what have you done with Hasbinbad?

There has to be a willingness to at least talk about it. Perhaps a champion system is a good way....

[Skope]

There are 4 guilds that are "poopsocking". Given another week that number could be 5. That will then force guilds to camp a boss even AFTER they just killed it.

The rotation needs to be such that there are standards set to even be consider part of the rotation. There also must some kind of spawn variance (which we have) and then some kind of restrictive window of opprotunity.

The problem you guys had with rotation was not that Trans was getting "spoon fed" it was that Naggy could spawn and it would be left up until it was convenient for us to kill and vice versa. This was an inherit problem that could have easily been fixed by simply adding a 2 hour opportunity window. This window was the time that was GIVEN to a rotation guild to kill the boss. I think we could actually even get the GMs to spawn raid boss and setup a "RACE TO KILL" competition. Something that would actually be FUN for GMs/Devs/Players to be involved with!

Now people are already saying but but that does not offer a CLEAR resolution as we want to be number 1 on p1999!

Well lets set some standards by which you can be ranked...Fastest kill...fewest people kill...fewest people that died kill...fastest clear...WHATEVER! If we wanted to we could do it by seasons or even have some kind of raid "league" to promote competition.

There are so many ideas and things we can do if we just take some time to think about it. I am sure with all the time spent camping these bosses that someone can think of a solid system.

It's not a bad idea, and nor does it have to be 2 hours, can actually be less, so that guilds who don't mind getting up at 4am to kill a dragon would still be inclined to do so, and those that wouldn't quite be able to muster up the force that early in the morning would simply wait the next time they're up.

As for FFA or FTE, I don't think it will work and the GMs have mentioned on various occasions that they don't want it. With poopsocking giving such a huge advantage to the camping guild there's still been instances of clear server rule violation, with an FFA or even FTE system it would get incredibly ugly and would hurt server morale.

It seems to me that there's two sides: one side thinks that the other wants a straight rotation with no time constraints on engagement and the other believes the opposing side wants a real FFA system where anything goes. I think that's not the case and the middle ground is quite vast, it's ultimately how much both sides are willing to bend that will determine the next set of raid rules. Personally, I never understood why a rotation determined by some other factor (pvp? /random?) determines the spawns for the week or even month, then a ?minute zone in or however long engagement window must be followed before guild B gets a go. This way you'd still need trackers, you'd still need to mobilize, and most importantly you'd actually have to "raid."

[Sydarm]

"Camping will only be for those guilds that the spawn belongs to but the fact is that guilds like Trans/Remedy/Divinity have no plan to get up at 3am to kill Gods/Dragons. So something like this *could* work." --Supreme

Can somebody please explain to me how a select few hardcore raiding guilds getting the vast majority of boss loot, in strict correlation to time and effort invested, is not in the spirit of classic Everquest? How is it a community and dev issue that you want all the glory for a minimum of effort?

[Straif]

There are only 2 options...
1) Everyone come together and make a rotation list
2) First Come, First Serve

Let me start by saying, I'm not in the top teir of P99 raiding.
I was back in the day on live, as well as on EQ2. For quite some time I did see it (on both games) unfortunately I managed to do that because I had shit loads of free time. When I had more responsibility and commitments to undertake, I put MMO's on the back burner. I continued to play, but only did so thinking "oh yea, I'll be raiding again soon". That never happened, because raiding is a fucking job, playing MMO's are a job... actually it's fucking slavery because the game takes your time (and money if your playing any type of game with a subscription) to RENT space in an online world.

Think about it: How much bullshit do you put up with in game? And for what? What is it worth?

If people can't play nice and share, fuck it, turn this fucking bitch into a 3rd world country. Fuck play nice rules. If someone is going to sit and camp (or poopsock as you'd say) to alert there guild that mobs are up so they can lock it down, let them.

People won't sacrifice that much and quit. People have done so in other games. This is the reason everything is instanced in every game now. EQ2 for example, everything is instanced except a small percentage of mobs, and only a few guilds lay claim to them by using 24/7 call lists and "poopsockin" the zone.

I think of it as natural selection in the MMO world. The pions will level up 50 different toons cause they genuinely like to play, but there's a massive amount of shit they will never see cause of stuff like this. The elite will lay claim to mobs forcing people out of seeing said content by perma-camping the shit. But you know what? Thats their decision, they go to those lengths, and if GMs / Devs don't see anything wrong with it, than it's the law of the land and everyone else will have to deal with it.

I am among the population in between. I like to casually play and also raid, but not in exchange for my soul sitting in front of a game (on a free server) that went out of style commercially years ago. Someone is clearly going to go to greater lengths to make sure I don't see end game and or have a good time playing. If they aren't willing to change, The rules aren't willing to change, and I can't play a part in stabbing my competition to death or assassinating my predecessor to take his or her place, I simply won't play. Because I realize the fact that I'll never see a good portion of the game, why bother play it?

Theres no money shot. If one were reading a book with 30 chapters, but you only get to read 20 and someone takes the shit away from you, what a fucking waste. It's like having a dick, lots of money, good looks and personality but being too afraid to talk to a woman and dying a virgin when you're fucking 80 years old. Makes no fucking sense....

I quit.

*EDIT*
P.S.
I'm fucking drunk

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Fear always had a full repop with CT spawning. Guild wars I always wish i saw more of, in eq.

[Skope]

Straif, even in classic there were server rules enforced by the community and at times even the GMs. There were servers with straight rotations, servers with FFA and then servers with stuff in between. The point here isn't "if you don't like it, then quit," it's that these current rules don't even begin to benefit the guilds who actually do put in more effort, and that's a serious problem.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I propose a lvl 1 gnome race. winner gets raid targets for a week or whatever.

[Straif]

Straif, even in classic there were server rules enforced by the community and at times even the GMs. There were servers with straight rotations, servers with FFA and then servers with stuff in between. The point here isn't "if you don't like it, then quit," it's that these current rules don't even begin to benefit the guilds who actually do put in more effort, and that's a serious problem.

Prexus was a Rotation server, we had GM's facilitate things... until the bitching got out of hand and went FCFS. My guild took the natural approach.. full on rape mode, pillaging shit, kicking babies etc.

You are right, it is a serious problem, but I'm new to this server and can see this isn't an issue just sprouting up. Talking about it is good, a dialogue needs to be open so things can be approached in an intelligent manner but how many threads / flames / etc have been started concerning this topic? It's like beating a dead horse.

[Skope]

I played on Prexus myself and actually remember that :)

Ultimately both sides have to concede to get to a better solution, thus far certain sides haven't even come to the table while others have went behind the back's of other guilds to try to get something done. Without transparency and a level of compromise we can all expect things to get increasingly worse until a solution can be reached.

[Troy]

I'm all for a change for one reason: I have a job where I actually work, can't play EQ, and I can't call in sick or show up late or leave early because Inny is up.

If that means that I can NEVER EVER see any raid content, then something is VERY WRONG with the rules. End of story.

Having ~15 hours a day available to potentially be online should be more than enough to do everything. 24 hours should not be a requirement, it does not make sense in any universe.

[Bones]

Can somebody please explain to me how a select few hardcore raiding guilds getting the vast majority of boss loot, in strict correlation to time and effort invested, is not in the spirit of classic Everquest? How is it a community and dev issue that you want all the glory for a minimum of effort?
Sure.

Right after you explain to me how leaving your character AFK for days in a zone is a strict correlation to time and effort invested.

[whitebandit]

If you want to kill dragons everyday without having to invest any time or effort, PEQ. You can be level 75 in like an hour.. Im sure you could just go Solo a dragon or something if you wanted to.

[astarothel]

There are many preconditions that have to be made before any sort of revision to the raiding ruleset can be made.

The first and most important is that all parties believe that it has to and should change.

After this there are a number of secondary preconditions that will need to be agreed upon

Examples include:
-that the raiding ruleset adopted should remain competitive
-that the raiding ruleset adopted should contain some reward for effort, efficiency, and dedication, including time invested
-that the raiding ruleset adopted must require at most the current amount of time GMs currently invest toward policing the current ruleset in place.

From this groundwork you can move on to discussing aspects of possible rulesets.

Examples include:
-keeping variance, a change of variance values and mechanics, or no variance at all
-what types of rule sets will discourage the negative behaviour (in this case, long duration camping) and prevent it from reoccurring
-the pros and cons of each of various rulesets, and their relation to the secondary preconditions
-timers (to engage, to kill, resets for interference or bugged encounters)
-flat number of attempts on a target, or a flat time period
-if the ruleset consists of internal penalties for behaviour against the server rules, in addition to the external penalties levied by the GMs

Of course, it's all irrelevant if groups opt against acceptance of primary and secondary preconditions for the agreement, or against legitimate discussion and grounds for compromise over the aspects for a possible solution.

[Bubbles]

if you are sitting more then 15 minutes in an area without casting a spell / fighting or typing you get flagged "AFK", if you are AFK for another 15 minutes you get disconnected from the server ... tada 80% of the campers go LD every 30 minutes....

I'd get booted 15 times a day if that happened, and I don't go near raids. :D

[Sydarm]

"Right after you explain to me how leaving your character AFK for days in a zone is a strict correlation to time and effort invested." -Bones

Go sit in perma where it crashes all the time and mysterious giant trains wipe you, with 5 minute resurrection cast due to zone-wide lag. How about afking in solb where people train you several times a day, and often times worse, both unintentionally and intentionally? We have to work, sleep, eat, and do the same stuff everybody else does on top of this game. There's a lot more than just leaving a computer on.

If it is so easy to just afk your toon in a zone may I ask why you don't simply do it? This is the system that is in place guys.

For da/ib to get on board with a change, it must benefit them. I am not saying that it should be as lopsided of a benefit as it currently is: but if we are to simply relinquish our current situation and divide everything up into equal slices of the pie due to the boistrous complaints of the unenthusiastic casual players, I consider that garbage.

[Supreme]

Ok for all the people that keep saying "If you want to kill dragons everyday without having to invest any time or effort or "You dont want to put in the effort to camp dragons/gods you want things handed to you" please exit the thread.

It takes NO SKILL to stay logged in and permacamp. Some of us are simply in agreement that it is lame and sad that there is so much greediness that nothing else is acceptable but poopsocking. The more you attempt to call us out and try to get us to do it the closer you come to only ever seeing 1 spawn (the current one you are on) again. There is enough of us..we simply do not believe poopsocking is in the spirit of Everquest Raiding.

Tommorrow i am going to post a rotation system that will offer the "racing, FTE, campers and rotation" a idea.

[Sydarm]

"Ok for all the people that keep saying "If you want to kill dragons everyday without having to invest any time or effort or "You dont want to put in the effort to camp dragons/gods you want things handed to you" please exit the thread." --okay now that I know you are addressing me in particular

Equal distribution to each and every guild that holds up their hand asking for dragon loot when they are all of exceedingly unequal makeup and desire cannot be considered a legitimate system of fairness.

If you want a casual game where you can just waltz on over to a raidzone with a couple friends, kill everything, and obtain the best loot in the game...I would suggest YOU go somewhere else.

[Troy]

complaints of the unenthusiastic casual players

I suggest you rethink your definition of casual. Not having 24-hour access to EQ != casual. It probably indicates that one is not clinically insane :p

[Skope]

Sydarm, let's be clear: Nobody is asking for a straight rotation where we all hold hands and sing songs of how wonderful dragon/god loot is. What we want is a system that actually rewards people who put in more time and effort to their raiding, not the guilds that sit in a zone and claim 'this is mine' while going off and afking for 3-4 days at a time. The current situation is the total antithesis to what you, and many, seem to be looking for.

[Sydarm]

Your purported knowledge of what is best for my guild or ib has no authenticity as you are a member of neither.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/Sydarm/Batman.jpg

[Skope]

that's an issue you have to take up with 2 of your guildies who disagree with you.

[Aeolwind]

Observe one point I'd like to make: On average, how many raid targets are each guild getting each week?

[XDrake]

I say make Nagafen's Lair and Permafrost PVP zones. FIGHT FOR IT! :D

[Bones]

If it is so easy to just afk your toon in a zone may I ask why you don't simply do it? This is the system that is in place guys.
I'll let supreme take this one.
Some of us are simply in agreement that it is lame and sad that there is so much greediness that nothing else is acceptable but poopsocking.There is enough of us..we simply do not believe poopsocking is in the spirit of Everquest Raiding.
It is not hard to sit AFK around the clock waiting for a text message. I don't because it is fucking stupid.

None of this matters because you are just trying to draw attention from the blatant truth. You can't handle legitimate competition. If you weren't afraid of a better, faster, and more organized guild taking targets from under your nose, you wouldn't have people sitting AFK for days to guarantee first shot.

[Humwawa]

that's an issue you have to take up with 2 of your guildies who disagree with you.

Sydarm's point is, "How does this benefit me?"

As a guild member, his position beats the hell out of mine; he's thinking in his guild's best interests. IB and DA get boss kills through this system, and from a guild standpoint, I don't see anything new on the table that will benefit IB or DA to prompt a system of change.

I myself might love the hell out of a FFA race war. Will I support it if my guild doesn't, or if the conditions aren't to our mutual benefit? Neeewp.

And what is "the spirit of EverQuest raiding," by the way? We all come from different servers, and each server held its own method of apportioning mobs. Some of you folks are from FFA servers, some of you are from highly political servers.

In short, how do you propose to merge these conflicting viewpoints into something we *ALL* can deal with? And seeing as that's highly idealistic, how do you propose these viewpoints into a system *some* of us can put up with?

[Skope]

Sydarm's point is, "How does this benefit me?"

As a guild member, his position beats the hell out of mine; he's thinking in his guild's best interests. IB and DA get boss kills through this system, and from a guild standpoint, I don't see anything new on the table that will benefit IB or DA to prompt a system of change.

I myself might love the hell out of a FFA race war. Will I support it if my guild doesn't, or if the conditions aren't to our mutual benefit? Neeewp.

But the point is you understand there's a serious flaw in the system and then, hypothetically, would still be voting no in an attempt to kill more dragons/gods with complete disregard for the "right" answer because someone above you tells you to. That's not only unreasonable, but self-degrading.

EDIT: along with a lack of faith in your guild for actual raiding tactics and the acknowledgment that the only way you'll continue to be successful is through poopsocking.

[girth]

So I guess keeping a force of 15+ in a zone for days doesn't constitute as time invested? Time we could be using to play our characters and get rich/have high-level fun, but instead we sacrifice this time in order to get chances at the best loot in the game. No, its not fun, but its what we must do to get what we desire most.

You people either have less desire or less ability or both, so don't go blaming others that you cannot get anything done currently, cause I know damn well basically nobody is trying.

rotation < poopsocking < first to engage

[Supreme]

"Ok for all the people that keep saying "If you want to kill dragons everyday without having to invest any time or effort or "You dont want to put in the effort to camp dragons/gods you want things handed to you" please exit the thread." --okay now that I know you are addressing me in particular

Equal distribution to each and every guild that holds up their hand asking for dragon loot when they are all of exceedingly unequal makeup and desire cannot be considered a legitimate system of fairness.

If you want a casual game where you can just waltz on over to a raidzone with a couple friends, kill everything, and obtain the best loot in the game...I would suggest YOU go somewhere else.


Here let me add this gem then. Any system i propose will not include Transcendence as part of that rotation. To put it bluntly even a rotation system is not something we are interested in right now. We are content farming planes for armor (or trash).

But....

Bringing together everyone and allowing myself to be a unbiased arbitrator for a balanced rotation system that appeals to the "camping,FTE,rotation and racing" player base is something i feel will bring the raiding to a enjoyable standard.

And lets be honest here. Who in the current raid scene is really "unbalanced"? Because IB was the FIRST to kill Dragons/Gods that gives them the privledge of making rules only for themselves? Or because DA no-skill poopsocks content that it somehow elevates them as superior to Divinity, WI or Remedy?

Please do not be so naive.

I am even pretty sure that my "rag-tag" bunch of Transcendence could take down every bit of the content that is on p1999.

So please do not come here to be elitist. Offer your suggestions for Raid Rules or take the stairs.

[Supreme]

Observe one point I'd like to make: On average, how many raid targets are each guild getting each week?

I can say that right now..it will be 1. DA/IB/WI/Divinity are all currently perma camping Vox/Inny/Nagafen/CT. You can bet that as soon as a dragon/god dies that guild will not leave to go try and get in on Vox...they will stay right there and keep camping the boss until a guild offers to swap.

[Straif]

Hours upon hours put forth to lock down mobs and get loot.
This IS the essence of Classic EQ. That doesn't mean it was a good system. That's why over the course of time it changed. If you disagree, please tell me why most every MMO to date has exclusive instanced content?

The elitist attitude some people have almost justifies trolling and griefing the fuck out of people in game. If anything, it sounds almost like a reason TO play.

Collateral damage I say. Trainers gunna train.

[Skope]

So I guess keeping a force of 15+ in a zone for days doesn't constitute as time invested? Time we could be using to play our characters and get rich/have high-level fun, but instead we sacrifice this time in order to get chances at the best loot in the game. No, its not fun, but its what we must do to get what we desire most.

You people either have less desire or less ability or both, so don't go blaming others that you cannot get anything done currently, cause I know damn well basically nobody is trying.

rotation < poopsocking < first to engage

Your guild had a posting stating that the ONLY reason you were poopsocking was because DA did it, thus making both guilds bend the rules. you guys didn't favor the camping situation then and actually preferred a race to targets with tracking, what's changed? Furthermore, the argument isn't about time invested, it's about effort put in. As things stand now, time spent in a zone afk does not equal effort, and if you really think that time = effort than you're delusional. Up until your members left and you've been recruiting these new applicants you didn't even bother clearing planes. You'd quite comfortably sit behind firewall or at ledge, or ZI in hate and just track until it got there, while other guilds around you were actually actively clearing.

As of right now, there's only 1 difference between your guild and one of the guilds you consider to be putting in less time, and that's the willingness to go afk in a zone for 5 days straight. It's pathetic that you're grasping onto it as if it's the only thing you have left.

[Supreme]

You people either have less desire or less ability or both, so don't go blaming others that you cannot get anything done currently, cause I know damn well basically nobody is trying.


Hey welcome to the discussion. I invite you to actually read the thread and post with an understanding of what has already been said in the posts.

I do not desire to poopsock as it is not in the spirit of the game. Racing and mobilization is. I have the ability...but with ability you must then give up your opinion on the other aspect to do anything about it.

[Noleafclover]

Well my monk's stuck in sol b right now and I can say it kinda sucks. IDK how it's "not effort" to have your main stuck somewhere for 5 days. Can't farm with your main, can't raid planes, can't go after other targets, can't play that character at all basically.

I think you mean it doesn't show skill or anything, which I agree with. I'm certainly in favor of changes. I'd rather be tracking/killing.

Astarothel - Yes? Care to elaborate? Theoretically it'd put us back at tracking/killing, hopefully with minimal GM involvement. If people were still camping, the warnings could disappear and suspensions could be lengthened, so that the anti-camping measure was more preventative w/ less GM involvement required.

[Hogwash]

I can say that right now..it will be 1. DA/IB/WI/Divinity are all currently perma camping Vox/Inny/Nagafen/CT. You can bet that as soon as a dragon/god dies that guild will not leave to go try and get in on Vox...they will stay right there and keep camping the boss until a guild offers to swap.

6 divinity in permafrost = pemra camp? half of these are trackers sir.

[Humwawa]

But the point is you understand there's a serious flaw in the system and then, hypothetically, would still be voting no in an attempt to kill more dragons/gods with complete disregard for the "right" answer because someone above you tells you to. That's not only unreasonable, but self-degrading.

EDIT: along with a lack of faith in your guild for actual raiding tactics and the acknowledgment that the only way you'll continue to be successful is through poopsocking.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that being a good guild member means to be fashionably rebellious. I'll support the decisions my guild's officers make, and I would expect you would too.

I seem to recall Supreme asking for the "trolling" to go to Rants and Flames. You may insult me there, if you like.

Edit - Tactics? TACTICS? Please man, this is Classic EQ, it isn't a game for Chess Grandmasters. The summation of raiding tactics is how many people answer their cell phones and text messages and mobilize to the location of whatever mob a mostly-AFK tracker caught on their track window while watching Arrested Development. Where those players are currently and how far they have to run is the entirety of your "tactics." Everything else is pulling and zone knowledge, and politics, politics, politics!

[Skope]

Sorry, but somehow the argument of the person who plays EQ the least gets to reap the most benefit just doesn't jive with me, and I don't think I'm in the minority.

[Chicka]

Sure, let's give them another reason to mass recruit!
Targets have been camped with as many as 40-50 from a single guild in a zone at once, 30 is an easily attainable number that doesn't address the issue.

It is not only easily attainable, it is also far more than you need for a raid. We killed Inny with 19 the other day.

[Bones]

IDK how it's "not effort" to have your main stuck somewhere for 5 days. Can't farm with your main, can't raid planes, can't go after other targets, can't play that character at all basically.
What you just described is the opposite of effort. As Skope stated, its not skill, its not organization, its not effort, and its not "hardcore". It is simply a willingness to not play your character for days so no other guilds can kill a target which you feel you deserve or have earned for being camped there AFK for days prior to it spawning, because a rule allows it.

[logiktrip]

Let's just bring on the SZ rules and be done with it - no gm intervention.

Nothing is going to compete with guilds who have learned to work around the safeguards made in a different time on the server. That's why the rules have to be expandable enough to provide for additional guilds. Until that happens history is going to continue repeating itself. Both DA and IB are going to have to give some ground, and neither seem willing to do that in any official manner.

[Wrei]

Your guild had a posting stating that the ONLY reason you were poopsocking was because DA did it, thus making both guilds bend the rules. you guys didn't favor the camping situation then and actually preferred a race to targets with tracking, what's changed? Furthermore, the argument isn't about time invested, it's about effort put in. As things stand now, time spent in a zone afk does not equal effort, and if you really think that time = effort than you're delusional. Up until your members left and you've been recruiting these new applicants you didn't even bother clearing planes. You'd quite comfortably sit behind firewall or at ledge, or ZI in hate and just track until it got there, while other guilds around you were actually actively clearing.

As of right now, there's only 1 difference between your guild and one of the guilds you consider to be putting in less time, and that's the willingness to go afk in a zone for 5 days straight. It's pathetic that you're grasping onto it as if it's the only thing you have left.

Not sure what your trying to imply here... we all hate camping except DA. They clearly explained to us that given the choice of racing and pooping, they'd rather poop for the betterment of their guild while giving the finger to the rest of the server. The moment DA stops pooping, I honestly believe camping will stop. So instead of arguing on things we'll never see eye to eye (casuals vs dedicated), why not focus on the fact that it's 1 guild not 2 that is causing the poop effect.

[Humwawa]

Why turn this into a crusade? If this was a politically-bent rotation server, there'd be rabid outcries from folks that their vision of EQ involves heated, drama-infused races to engage a boss before their rival. I'm sure there'd be a similar argument behind FFA servers - a FFA server can dominate content just like a political server, and are those complaints valid?

It's not my job to propose a change to the system - I'm not an officer, and my own personal views on the subject should be well known by now, and they've been known to my guild's leadership for months now.

It is your job to propose change instead of merely insulting the parties involved. Your zealotry gets us nowhere.

[Skope]

Why turn this into a crusade? If this was a politically-bent rotation server, there'd be rabid outcries from folks that their vision of EQ involves heated, drama-infused races to engage a boss before their rival. I'm sure there'd be a similar argument behind FFA servers - a FFA server can dominate content just like a political server, and are those complaints valid?

It's not my job to propose a change to the system - I'm not an officer, and my own personal views on the subject should be well known by now, and they've been known to my guild's leadership for months now.

It is your job to propose change instead of merely insulting the parties involved. Your zealotry gets us nowhere.

Sorry, but your guild's complete disregard for open conversation and unwillingness to see a resolution at all is a point of discussion and has been for months now, you need only look at the post above you to confirm that.

I don't want to complain, I actually proposed things and gave input, but when it's guild policy to say "screw that, we don't care" then it's ultimately the guild's demeanor itself becomes a matter of discussion.

[Humwawa]

Then I suppose the entire purpose of this thread is simply to complain, yes? That isn't at all the purpose of this thread, by the way. I'll say it again - Supreme is trying to change the way end-game raiding works. That's the point. The entire point. You're just trolling the crap out of DA, and I'm sure that's getting you somewhere.

Also, not one DA officer has yet to post here. I'm sure they will.

[Buhbuh]

The way I see it, currently, with only old-world there's bound to be a pretty nasty discourse on the subject of getting raid mobs, especially considering that there's like 5 targets to choose from: Phinny, Inny, CT, golems, hate mini's, Nag, Vox. Kunark presents a lot more diversity, especially on a class to class basis (epics mini raids).

I will say that I generally lean toward the PvP solution and the best way to contest/ ultimately settle something is...I think you get where I'm going. Those battles are always good memories between people and always hours long, but someone gets the mob. =p

[rioisk]

So I guess keeping a force of 15+ in a zone for days doesn't constitute as time invested? Time we could be using to play our characters and get rich/have high-level fun, but instead we sacrifice this time in order to get chances at the best loot in the game. No, its not fun, but its what we must do to get what we desire most.

You people either have less desire or less ability or both, so don't go blaming others that you cannot get anything done currently, cause I know damn well basically nobody is trying.

rotation < poopsocking < first to engage

Less Ability. I lol'ed

[Buhbuh]

I'd personally call 15 people sitting, literally doing nothing in a zone for days people who forgot to actually play the game that they're logged into. =p That'd be like watching the stock market rise and fall but less exciting.

[Loke]

Sorry, but your guild's complete disregard for open conversation and unwillingness to see a resolution at all is a point of discussion and has been for months now, you need only look at the post above you to confirm that.

Ask Ektar, or Xzerion about "[his] guild's complete disregard for open conversation and unwillingness to see a resolution... etc"... I think they'd disagree. You really have no idea what you're talking about guy.

All sorts of stuff

I'll tell you exactly what I've told other people. No one is forcing anyone to camp mobs. Let me emphasis this - YOU HAVE THE CHOICE TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, STOP BLAMING US. Our actions should not dictate yours. Just because we are willing to afk 15 players in a zone, doesn't mean that you have to aswell. You guys make the decision to camp, just as we do. I'm so sick of hearing people blame DA for camping... am I the only one who realizes how ridiculous it is for an entire group of people to say that they do something they hate only because another group of people is doing that thing as well?

ITT A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THINGS THEY KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT.

[rioisk]

Personally I just think it's funny when guilds like IB/DA talk about being the best players as if their ability to sit AFK and wait for a text message to kill a mob that is 100% no fail somehow flags them as the elite of the server.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9817/valasbeatszilo.jpg

[Buhbuh]

Yeah, R'tal is a whore with that Rakusha. I guess with no way to actually contest mobs with people, their's justification in sitting around in zones waiting. Doesn't mean it isn't boring as shit though =p.

[mmiles8]

As if you didn't know that this thread would devolve into another flame war that will just get locked and moved to R&F. Seriously, if you perceive a problem with raid rules, and you want to solve that problem, these forums are not the place to begin brainstorming.

[Loke]

Yeah, R'tal is a whore with that Rakusha. I guess with no way to actually contest mobs with people, their's justification in sitting around in zones waiting. Doesn't mean it isn't boring as shit though =p.

I was going to be a dick and make a really sarcastic/snarky post about how people who don't know anything about what is going on in the raid scene always flock to these threads to post their 2cp and then point out the fact that R'tal isn't currently in the game as an example - but instead I'll just not do that.

Oh wait, I think I accidentally did it anyway... sorry.

[Humwawa]

I'm fine with either FFA or Rotation. That's about all I've got for ya, at this rate.

Maybe the "monthly guild meeting" would be a good place for this to happen? 90% of the people posting in this thread, myself included, haven't the power to change anything for anyone.

[Buhbuh]

It wasn't directed at any particular person - I was simply pointing out a rare drop in PoH that is generally difficult to get to if you don't want to camp there.

I was a monk live as well so it seemed like the easiest item to note. Where else would 15 people be camped though, really? You can park a noob at vox, any tracker at N wall in Fear, people are always in SolB, no one goes to kedge =p, just leaves Hate.

[Neach]

If GM's don't want to deal with it and have rules to it....... Well why doesn't someone say "fuck you for camping it for days we just came in and ganked it in from you." As long as you are not training it's all good right?

I for one am sick of the poopsocking, sick of the drama and numerous threads being discussed about it and sure as hell sick and tired of being polite to any mother fucker who tries to tell me "we work hard". . .Sitting in front of a fuckin computer or keeping it logged in while you sleep is NOT effort you dumb fuckin tools.

[Allizia]

I can say that right now..it will be 1. DA/IB/WI/Divinity are all currently perma camping Vox/Inny/Nagafen/CT. You can bet that as soon as a dragon/god dies that guild will not leave to go try and get in on Vox...they will stay right there and keep camping the boss until a guild offers to swap.

Rofl, that's hilarious. How is this different from a rotation again? Not counting the camping/poopsocking.

So the "competition" went from being able to chill and do what you want with scheduled raids once a week to perma farming the same boss week after week with required attendance 24/7 at some mystical preparation spot. :cool:

[Loke]

If GM's don't want to deal with it and have rules to it....... Well why doesn't someone say "fuck you for camping it for days we just came in and ganked it in from you." As long as you are not training it's all good right?

I for one am sick of the poopsocking, sick of the drama and numerous threads being discussed about it and sure as hell sick and tired of being polite to any mother fucker who tries to tell me "we work hard". . .Sitting in front of a fuckin computer or keeping it logged in while you sleep is NOT effort you dumb fuckin tools.

people who don't know anything about what is going on in the raid scene always flock to these threads to post their 2cp

[Buhbuh]

I'm just speaking for some of you here when I say PvP is a great answer, maybe not for this server but perhaps somewhere down the line if they ever want to host another with donations or something.

[Humerox]

...some form of weekly pve skill test for 1st draft of bosses

That's the most interesting thing I've seen so far.

Supreme's ranking system has merit imho, too. Both could be fun for the server, and player-run and coordinated so there would be minimal GM interaction.

2nd in line could plausibly wait to see if the first ranked contenders wiped, and if so take the spawn. Each draft 1-4 would have primary shots, and choice on seconds would go to remaining drafts.

[Bones]

Where else would 15 people be camped though, really? You can park a noob at vox, any tracker at N wall in Fear, people are always in SolB, no one goes to kedge =p, just leaves Hate.
Any of the 4 main targets; Naggy, Vox, CT, and Inny. Because if they have 15 people in the zone prior to a mob spawning, they are guaranteed the first shot at it. And since this content is old and well known, there's slim to no chance of failure. It's an excellent way to guarantee your guild content when you can't handle true competition.
Rofl, that's hilarious. How is this different from a rotation again? Not counting the camping/poopsocking.

So the "competition" went from being able to chill and do what you want with scheduled raids once a week to perma farming the same boss week after week with required attendance 24/7 at some mystical preparation spot. :cool:
<3

[Humerox]

And since this content is old and well known, there's slim to no chance of failure.

You been watching? LOL. Not necessarily true.

[Buhbuh]

Why don't you just setup 1 duel each week between 2 of the same class to decide who will get which mob each week? I'm certain the guilds who aren't getting any of the mobs would be down for it and the ones who are always getting them wouldn't but it's a simple enough idea.

It's like in ancient history when the best warrior or king died from the likes of someone other righteous warrior on the other side, everyone in that sect with the dead king quivered or surrendered at the sheer awesomeness of their skill.

Hahahaha

[Bones]

You been watching? LOL. Not necessarily true.
That's why I carefully included the word "slim" in there. ;)

[Humerox]

Here's an idea.

GM controlled NPC once a week. Each guild has a shot at who can take it down the fastest. Each guild has a cap on attendees, but they choose the classes. Each guild is timed. Drafts for real bosses are based on times.

Fun for the GM's...fun for the players.

[Buhbuh]

Any of the 4 main targets; Naggy, Vox, CT, and Inny. Because if they have 15 people in the zone prior to a mob spawning, they are guaranteed the first shot at it. And since this content is old and well known, there's slim to no chance of failure. It's an excellent way to guarantee your guild content when you can't handle true competition.

<3

Ahhhh, right right. Well, that's a great way for a huge very well geared guild to get every mob every time. All you need is 50ish members who are on usually all the time and you can have them all, 15 each, stationed in each raid zone, depending on when each was killed. It sounds like an easily "exploitable" rule. I say that because it's legal here but that has a very simple loophole.

I remember my brother sneaking down into the Chardok royals area with faction on his rogue and destroying a raid's rez classes and then leaving. That was pure good times right there. Kael/ NToV were highly sought after zones as well back in the day! Fun, fun times doing that. That tormax hat was sexxxxxxy.

[rioisk]

PVP solution....oh wait poopsockers aren't good enough even with their poopsocked gear!

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I'd call you a sadistic equestrian necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse.

[Buhbuh]

I'd call you a sadistic equestrian necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse.

aha! Crever Ritter Girah

[Skope]

Could even potentially have a system where timers are called on guilds that are actually poopsocking. The current rules can stay in place, the only addendum would be a timer that relegates their #1 position to the next guild that has 15 in zone and has called the timer. This can go on endlessly and in any zone, so that it's only the guilds who are active that may be able to swap between the 1-2 or even 1-2-3 positions. The timers don't have to be short, but an hour or two and can happen at anytime during the windows.

It would essentially be as simple as guild B entering the zone with 15/+ and calling a "priority" timer, this way there should be no incentive to get there before the window opens and would be a race to get in there first as to have the first 1-2 hour window before there is a timer called on you. You can have a 1 minute response timer where 15+ from the guild would have to respond otherwise you forfeit that prioritized position to the guild who called timer.

This could potentially get rid of the poopsocking altogether and still allow guilds who are the most active and willing to camp the most benefit by having the most chance at mobs during windows at any given time during the day. This also has the intended purpose of allowing guilds who wish to take a stab at content the right to gather up a raid force and call timers on guilds who would be camping, but because they're not nearly as active would have fewer chances.

If there is 3 guilds then it would be guild A with 1-2 hours, then guild B, and finally guild C, until there are no more guilds and then it goes back to guild A, that way if all 3 guilds wish to camp they can do so provided they respond to their timers.

Keep in mind current raiding rules would still apply, including 30 minute timers (or whatever the number may be) as well as spawn windows, meaning guilds doing this the most actively will still see the highest amount of return

This requires no more GM intervention than is happening now but eliminates the need to camp a mob for 5 days on end and requires guilds to be active during a particular window or mob that they want (even if it be all of them). Please let me know what you think, and be constructive.

What this doesn't do is address the incentive for two-boxing, nor does it really guarantee it won't be a two-horse, or even one-horse race, but what it does very well is reward those who are actually willing to put in the "effort" with the "time."

[Bubbles]

I propose a lvl 1 gnome race. winner gets raid targets for a week or whatever.

This really does need to happen, if only for 1 week.

[r0xx0r]

afk camping is illegal here- apply this rule to raid boss camping as well imho.

[Skope]

That's exactly what I'm trying to address with what i wrote up. Let me know what you think people

[Humerox]

Only problem with it Skope is there's no incentive for people to do it. It makes it a matter of blind luck as to who gets the spawn.

At least with Hasbin's PVE event idea and Supreme's ranking system, there is incentive for the players.

That's why I put out the GM NPC thing. It provides incentive, and could be much fun for everyone involved.

In order to address the issue we really need to start thinking outside of the box.

[Skope]

I think there definitely is some incentive, quite simply by challenging other guilds to the spawns. The longer you're there and awake the more chance you get. The less you challenge other guilds on overlapping windows the less likely you'll get a shot at it. It also asks guilds who wish to split forces the ability to mobilize at a moments notice and engage in 30 minutes. There's by far more incentive there than there is now, for all parties involved. What it does is remove the incentive to camp the spawn prior to the window opening, which may actually mean that we get some use for trackers again.

[Buhbuh]

The real problem with that is: any guild that is of worth has a batphone to call their guild members to arms within 10 minutes. With the current hour limit to gather forces in that scenario, guild A would still always get the mob with ease. Who isn't on speed dial when you're in guilds together? Full on nerdery, but it happens!


This server came out; why do you think Obama is pushing the unemployment extensions so hard? Put the pieces together pals, EQ1999.

[Humwawa]

wait for a text message to kill a mob that is 100% no fail

Apart from 100% no fail part (it does happen to the best of us), this is exactly what classic EQ raiding is. I'm sorry, but that is what it is. There's no uber in that anywhere, that's just what it is.

You have a mob that has a long spawn time, and several groups of people want it. Each group places a number of people in the zone to watch for it, be that number 1 or 15. When it spawns, the guild is alerted of its spawning via texts, phone calls, and ingame channels.

At this point in mobilization, the trick is who can get there first. In FFA, it's the first group who can aggro the mob first, and all kinds of flaws exist in that system. It is usually moderated by the majority, and usually makes GMs furious.

In Rotation system, mobs are reserved by a group through the consensus of the "major" guilds. How a guild is deemed "major" tends to vary, and is often cluttered in red tape by the most skillful diplomats to ensure their group stays where they are.

Our current "System" is kind of an inversion of the race war - essentially, the race begins before the mob even spawns, and is limited only by the presence of another guild. This means that in order to retain an advantage, guilds will show up earlier and earlier before a spawn window opens in order to hold the mob, ultimately causing a permanent lockdown of both zone and player.

The problem with this server, in my opinion, is that a large number of us are Top Dog has-beens on a server that's too small for all of us. The price of wanting to be in a "top guild" in Classic means that there must be players who are NOT "top guild." What do you do with that?

Edit: Changed one freaking word.

[Noleafclover]

What you just described is the opposite of effort. As Skope stated, its not skill, its not organization, its not effort, and its not "hardcore". It is simply a willingness to not play your character for days so no other guilds can kill a target which you feel you deserve or have earned for being camped there AFK for days prior to it spawning, because a rule allows it.

Heh semantics. That willingness to camp is what prevents me from doing other things in the game, and I call that an effort. You don't. Aight. It's surely somethin.

And whatever it is, it surely sucks. As I said. And it's funny you pick out a line in my post - 'cause I stated there my complete agreement that there was no skill involved, and that I'm in favor of a raid rules change. We're mostly in agreement, and you're just arguin semantics here.

[G13]

Could even potentially have a system where timers are called on guilds that are actually poopsocking. The current rules can stay in place, the only addendum would be a timer that relegates their #1 position to the next guild that has 15 in zone and has called the timer. This can go on endlessly and in any zone, so that it's only the guilds who are active that may be able to swap between the 1-2 or even 1-2-3 positions. The timers don't have to be short, but an hour or two and can happen at anytime during the windows.

That is already part of the current raid rules as written. Roll call. Timer. Nothing is stopping anyone from calling a timer and a roll call/applying pressure to any guild that is camping a spawn. Nobody ever does it though. I don't see Remedy druids tracking spawns for their guild to come apply any pressure to IB or DA. I don't see it from Divinity either. Oh that's right. By the time the boss spawns, and they send out a batphone that probably won't be answered anyways, IB or DA have cleared to the target and killed it. There have been plenty of times where IB or DA has called and the guild who has claim has 30 minutes to buff/clear to target and kill. There has been times when both guilds failed. You people are acting like shit spawns and the "poopsockers" lazily waltz to the target and kill it. Maybe if you actually were THERE when shit was spawning and IB or DA was killing it, you'd know you have no idea WTF you are talking about and that isn't the way it works. When shit spawns you have to mobilize, buff, clear, and do it efficiently. There is no room for error when another guild is applying pressure.

It would essentially be as simple as guild B entering the zone with 15/+ and calling a "priority" timer, this way there should be no incentive to get there before the window opens and would be a race to get in there first as to have the first 1-2 hour window before there is a timer called on you. You can have a 1 minute response timer where 15+ from the guild would have to respond otherwise you forfeit that prioritized position to the guild who called timer.

This is stupid. You people are trying to penalize guilds that prioritize ahead of time because frankly, you don't want to do it. Everyone is trying to make all these new convoluted solutions that ignore the obvious. 5 raid targets. 900 people on the server. Spawn variance. If you want to kill raid targets, you need to be there, in force, when they spawn. Otherwise you aren't getting jack shit. Now you can label that "poopsocking" fine, whatever floats your boat, but those guilds are killing bosses and you are not.

I don't really understand why the guilds that have put in the effort and time to guarantee their guild gets to experience the raid targets on this server should be penalized because a bunch of scrubs now want their cake and to eat it too. Not one guild has even put in 5% effort to try and use a little tactics and strategy with the current raid rules in place to try to get mobs. It doesn't even require camping a damn thing either. That's what so pathetic about it. You people want to claim that camping doesn't take any effort, yet you have never put in the initiative yourselves to out smart the campers.

[Bardzilla]

one thing to consider is what no 'poopsocking' @ raid targets would do to the non raid camps....they would be stuffed more than they are currently.

[Sidious]

A large part of the problem is raid targets not spawning when the server goes down, and something that definitely does not feel classic here. The boss bonanza was always a way for the guilds not at the top to be able to grab a spawn when there were multiple targets available, which does not happen here when you can just camp a boss and move on to the next with minimal timer overlap.

[RKromwell]

This really does need to happen, if only for 1 week.


Put the finish line in Qeynos.

[rioisk]

That is already part of the current raid rules as written. Roll call. Timer. Nothing is stopping anyone from calling a timer and a roll call/applying pressure to any guild that is camping a spawn. Nobody ever does it though. I don't see Remedy druids tracking spawns for their guild to come apply any pressure to IB or DA. I don't see it from Divinity either. Oh that's right. By the time the boss spawns, and they send out a batphone that probably won't be answered anyways, IB or DA have cleared to the target and killed it. There have been plenty of times where IB or DA has called and the guild who has claim has 30 minutes to buff/clear to target and kill. There has been times when both guilds failed. You people are acting like shit spawns and the "poopsockers" lazily waltz to the target and kill it. Maybe if you actually were THERE when shit was spawning and IB or DA was killing it, you'd know you have no idea WTF you are talking about and that isn't the way it works. When shit spawns you have to mobilize, buff, clear, and do it efficiently. There is no room for error when another guild is applying pressure.



This is stupid. You people are trying to penalize guilds that prioritize ahead of time because frankly, you don't want to do it. Everyone is trying to make all these new convoluted solutions that ignore the obvious. 5 raid targets. 900 people on the server. Spawn variance. If you want to kill raid targets, you need to be there, in force, when they spawn. Otherwise you aren't getting jack shit. Now you can label that "poopsocking" fine, whatever floats your boat, but those guilds are killing bosses and you are not.

I don't really understand why the guilds that have put in the effort and time to guarantee their guild gets to experience the raid targets on this server should be penalized because a bunch of scrubs now want their cake and to eat it too. Not one guild has even put in 5% effort to try and use a little tactics and strategy with the current raid rules in place to try to get mobs. It doesn't even require camping a damn thing either. That's what so pathetic about it. You people want to claim that camping doesn't take any effort, yet you have never put in the initiative yourselves to out smart the campers.


That's a lot of words to say "I devote my life to Project 1999 raiding" I especially like how you call the people who don't poopsock scrubs. I especially like "use a little tactics and strategy" part. What tactics and strategy? You make it sound like the people getting raid bosses are some elite bunch who have major skill that allows them to kill these mobs? The only difficulty and skill in anything you do is devoting your life to the game.

[Hasbinbad]

Put the finish line in Qeynos.
finish line should be paineel silly

[rioisk]

That is already part of the current raid rules as written. Roll call. Timer. Nothing is stopping anyone from calling a timer and a roll call/applying pressure to any guild that is camping a spawn. Nobody ever does it though. I don't see Remedy druids tracking spawns for their guild to come apply any pressure to IB or DA. I don't see it from Divinity either. Oh that's right. By the time the boss spawns, and they send out a batphone that probably won't be answered anyways, IB or DA have cleared to the target and killed it. There have been plenty of times where IB or DA has called and the guild who has claim has 30 minutes to buff/clear to target and kill. There has been times when both guilds failed. You people are acting like shit spawns and the "poopsockers" lazily waltz to the target and kill it. Maybe if you actually were THERE when shit was spawning and IB or DA was killing it, you'd know you have no idea WTF you are talking about and that isn't the way it works. When shit spawns you have to mobilize, buff, clear, and do it efficiently. There is no room for error when another guild is applying pressure.



This is stupid. You people are trying to penalize guilds that prioritize ahead of time because frankly, you don't want to do it. Everyone is trying to make all these new convoluted solutions that ignore the obvious. 5 raid targets. 900 people on the server. Spawn variance. If you want to kill raid targets, you need to be there, in force, when they spawn. Otherwise you aren't getting jack shit. Now you can label that "poopsocking" fine, whatever floats your boat, but those guilds are killing bosses and you are not.

I don't really understand why the guilds that have put in the effort and time to guarantee their guild gets to experience the raid targets on this server should be penalized because a bunch of scrubs now want their cake and to eat it too. Not one guild has even put in 5% effort to try and use a little tactics and strategy with the current raid rules in place to try to get mobs. It doesn't even require camping a damn thing either. That's what so pathetic about it. You people want to claim that camping doesn't take any effort, yet you have never put in the initiative yourselves to out smart the campers.


haha efficient

[Allizia]

Now you can label that "poopsocking" fine, whatever floats your boat, but those guilds are killing bosses and you are not.


What I have heard from friends in other guilds is that most people just refuse to drop to that level of long term stupid over gimp raid targets that will be 90% obsolete when Kunark comes out

[Humwawa]

What I have heard from friends in other guilds is that most people just refuse to drop to that level of long term stupid over gimp raid targets that will be 90% obsolete when Kunark comes out

If that's the case, then why does anyone care?

They very obviously do, though.

[Allizia]

If that's the case, then why does anyone care?

They very obviously do, though.

Because some would still like to enjoy the raiding aspect of the game and try a dragon/raid target without clearing their schedule for a week to do so I imagine

[Chicka]

Because some would still like to enjoy the raiding aspect of the game and try a dragon/raid target without clearing their schedule for a week to do so I imagine

Wow is definitely a game you would enjoy.

[Allizia]

Wow is definitely a game you would enjoy.

I sure did, for a few months until I got bored. I'm not bandwagon enough to state otherwise, it was a game that appealed to pretty much every playstyle known to MMO's from PvP to casual to hardcore. I give em props for creating something that is still the number 1 mmo today, and most of the people I raided with were mature and attentive. Wtf does that have to do with anything? I think most of the hate is simply because regardless of what you do in wow, you are still just a small fish in a really fucking big pond.

Didn't stop me from playing end game EQ from 99 through PoP or so, and I've never saw half the issues yall got. Server vs server competition is where the fun is at.

[Humwawa]

Because some would still like to enjoy the raiding aspect of the game and try a dragon/raid target without clearing their schedule for a week to do so I imagine

Nobody wants to just "try" a dragon or god. Asking an officer of any of the current guilds to attend a raid simply to see and remember the glory days of Classic EQ would probably be greeted with a warm response. Almost all of us raid for nostalgia's sake, and I think we're all human enough to empathize with the feeling.

This is not at all about just wanting to "see" a dragon or god. Not at all. End game content has always been dominated by a few guilds, on every server in the game. What seems to be in question here, from what I can tell, is whether that dominance is deserved.

[G13]

What I have heard from friends in other guilds is that most people just refuse to drop to that level of long term stupid over gimp raid targets that will be 90% obsolete when Kunark comes out

So if none of this content matters why are you people bitching about what people are doing to kill it? It's their business. You guys wrote the rules as well, which makes the current situation even more ironic.

It's not even about the mobs anyways, but the guild VS guild rivalries.

But you wouldn't know that. Since you don't raid here.

[Uaellaen]

So if none of this content matters why are you people bitching about what people are doing to kill it? It's their business. You guys wrote the rules as well, which makes the current situation even more ironic.

It's not even about the mobs anyways, but the guild VS guild rivalries.

But you wouldn't know that. Since you don't raid here.

neither do you, you AFK camp ...

[odizzido]

I think the main problem is that people can afk it. If there was some way to verify that people camping the mob were actually there at their computers at all times things would be better.

My suggestion:

I think that the current rule set it okay minus one thing. A role call should be allowed at any time and if the other guild doesn't meet it they are bumped to 2nd place in line.

Obviously a restriction on how often this can be done needs to be in, like three or four times an hour. The reason I say 3-4 times an hour is because you should be allowed to role call, then 2mins later do it again just to catch people who try to pop out to 7/11 or whatever.

That way if people want to hold the spawn they can't go afk like they do now. At least 15 people have to have be within one min of their computer at all times to hold it. If they can manage that then the enjoyment I get knowing people devote their lives to camping raid mob loot that wont matter when kunark comes out easily makes up for anything else.

Oh one more thing...I think a role call shouldn't just be a '1' or whatever typed into chat all the time. If one guild wants them to type something else out to check for answer bots they should be allowed.

[G13]

neither do you, you AFK camp ...

So are you saying I need to be "raiding" when the raid boss hasn't spawned? Excellent logic. Next you'll be telling me that Remedy "raids" when it clears planar trash over and over.



Removed the flaminess, chill.

[G13]

I think the main problem is that people can afk it. If there was some way to verify that people camping the mob were actually there at their computers at all times things would be better.

My suggestion:

I think that the current rule set it okay minus one thing. A role call should be allowed at any time and if the other guild doesn't meet it they are bumped to 2nd place in line.

Obviously a restriction on how often this can be done needs to be in, like three or four times an hour. The reason I say 3-4 times an hour is because you should be allowed to role call, then 2mins later do it again just to catch people who try to pop out to 7/11 or whatever.

That way if people want to hold the spawn they can't go afk like they do now. At least 15 people have to have be within one min of their computer at all times to hold it. If they can manage that then the enjoyment I get knowing people devote their lives to camping raid mob loot that wont matter when kunark comes out easily makes up for anything else.

Oh one more thing...I think a role call shouldn't just be a '1' or whatever typed into chat all the time. If one guild wants them to type something else out to check for answer bots they should be allowed.

If no boss is up it doesn't matter. As soon as the boss spawns any guild with a force of 15 can roll call you, and yes, you have 1 minute to have 15 people say they are at their keyboards.

[Aeolwind]

I can say that right now..it will be 1. DA/IB/WI/Divinity are all currently perma camping Vox/Inny/Nagafen/CT. You can bet that as soon as a dragon/god dies that guild will not leave to go try and get in on Vox...they will stay right there and keep camping the boss until a guild offers to swap.

lol, you realize this is a rotation right? The only difference is that you all leave your characters online for days on end.

This stuff can't go on forever, folks will burn out and move on, rinse & repeat. I have an idea, let me chat with Nilbog. I think I can satiate both sides here.

[Skope]

The point is, sitting there for 5 days before that eventually happens shouldn't be a guaranteed first shot, especially considering that this was never the intent when making the rules initially and abusing that loophole is now the only strategy that guilds have to put another notch in their belt.

[G13]

The point is, sitting there for 5 days before that eventually happens shouldn't be a guaranteed first shot, especially considering that this was never the intent when making the rules initially and abusing that loophole is now the only strategy that guilds have to put another notch in their belt.

Sitting there for 5 days right now doesn't guarantee you first shot either.

It's not abusing a damn thing either. The rules are there. Stated clearly. Everything you see was considered which is why there are things like "Roll Calls" and "Timers".

[Loke]

I think the main problem is that people can afk it. If there was some way to verify that people camping the mob were actually there at their computers at all times things would be better.


So you actually want to make it more tedious and difficult to camp mobs? Then when people do that you're just going to complain more.

I love how people get all up in arms when someone says something negative about their guild like that they aren't getting mobs - but people have no problem throwing around these ridiculous unfounded generalities about IB and DA poopsocking. Yea, having your character in game afk for most of the day is really really time consuming /boggle. I mean, it's not like I can do home work, cook dinner, work out, read, watch tv, or anything else while my character sits immobile in permafrost or something... oh wait.

[Skope]

It's been stated, many times actually, that nobody thought people were crazy enough to sit there for 5 days to claim a single spawn. You need only look back in this thread or roll back thru the other threads to see for yourself.

[Loke]

It's been stated, many times actually, that nobody thought people were crazy enough to sit there for 5 days to claim a single spawn. You need only look back in this thread or roll back thru the other threads to see for yourself.

Not really sure who you are directing this towards.. neither me, nor g13 (last two posters) said that we thought anyone didn't. I simply just think it's silly that people make it sound like AFK camping a mob means that our lives are consumed by this game - when in fact, becaue of AFK camping, I probably actually actively play the game less than 1/2 the people in this thread.

[Skope]

Not really sure who you are directing this towards.. neither me, nor g13 (last two posters) said that we thought anyone didn't. I simply just think it's silly that people make it sound like AFK camping a mob means that our lives are consumed by this game - when in fact, becaue of AFK camping, I probably actually actively play the game less than 1/2 the people in this thread.

And yet still get first dibs on a spawn...

How do you not see the inherent problem with that? You're being rewarded for doing absolutely nothing at all for 5 days until a single mob pops and then you get to loot the body.

[Loke]

And yet still get first dibs on a spawn...

How do you not see the inherent problem with that? You're being rewarded for doing absolutely nothing at all for 5 days until a single mob pops and then you get to loot the body.

It is "absolutely nothing at all", and yet, you are still unwilling to do it. We are, and thus, we get mobs.

How do you not see the problem with forcing a rotation or the rules how you like them down everyone else's throats? Just because you don't like the way things are doesn't mean that they are wrong. Pretty sure these rules were made in agreement by the top guilds on the server (including yours).

[Skope]

Under the presumption that this would never occur, and your guild's only policy since its establishment (since DA formed from FB after kicking Salty) was to see this poopsocking through.

Let's be honest, you're not breaking rules, but you're certainly not following them the way they were meant to be followed. You're essentially using this single loophole in the rule to your advantage and have been doing so for months now. you get no sympathy from anyone, especially considering there is a heavy majority who disagrees with it. So this argument that it's only a few people who want them changed is bogus, it's the other way around: only a few people want them to stay.

No one is asking for a forced rotation, just look at my previous posts and you'll see i never ever mentioned that. I'm actually asking for people to come to the table and propose something other than "well **** it, works for us let's keep it the way it is."

[Hogwash]

It is "absolutely nothing at all", and yet, you are still unwilling to do it. We are, and thus, we get mobs.

How do you not see the problem with forcing a rotation or the rules how you like them down everyone else's throats? Just because you don't like the way things are doesn't mean that they are wrong. Pretty sure these rules were made in agreement by the top guilds on the server (including yours).

You are delusional if you believe the garbage you are spewing, and this is exactly why we are in the mess we are in, certain parties not willing to compromise, or even admit that the current rule set is being abused..

[G13]

Under the presumption that this would never occur, and your guild's only policy since its establishment (since DA formed from FB after kicking Salty) was to see this poopsocking through.

Let's be honest, you're not breaking rules, but you're certainly not following them the way they were meant to be followed. You're essentially using this single loophole in the rule to your advantage and have been doing so for months now. you get no sympathy from anyone, especially considering there is a heavy majority who disagrees with it. So this argument that it's only a few people who want them changed is bogus, it's the other way around: only a few people want them to stay.

No one is asking for a forced rotation, just look at my previous posts and you'll see i never ever mentioned that. I'm actually asking for people to come to the table and propose something other than "well **** it, works for us let's keep it the way it is."

What do you mean "under the presumption that it wouldn't occur"?

You're talking about MMO gaming here. EQ raiding. You can't have it both ways. DA, IB, and now WI are merely mobilizing for their preferred targets before the mob spawns. The raid rules dictate first 15 in zone. So now to please you and every other scrub who wants mobs handed to them on a silver platter, said guilds are not allowed to mobilize early for their spawns. That's ridiculous.

There was no specific way the rules were meant to be followed. They are written, cut and dry, and people have been using tactics and stats to make sure they get their mobs and their loots. It's not those guild's fault you choose to do nothing but come to forums to bitch and complain instead of focusing that energy into applying pressure to said guilds in game is it?

You are delusional if you believe the garbage you are spewing, and this is exactly why we are in the mess we are in, certain parties not willing to compromise, or even admit that the current rule set is being abused..

Garbage. Why don't you get off your lazy ass and apply some pressure on the guilds killing the mobs. It doesn't require you to camp a damn thing. All it requires is a druid to track and for 15 of you scrubs to answer a batphone and port to a zone. Try it sometime. You'd be amazed at what can happen if camping mobs is such "abuse" and you refuse to do it. You people are making your guilds look like a bunch of whiners.

[Hogwash]

Garbage. Why don't you get off your lazy ass and apply some pressure on the guilds killing the mobs. It doesn't require you to camp a damn thing. All it requires is a druid to track and for 15 of you scrubs to answer a batphone and port to a zone. Try it sometime. You'd be amazed at what can happen if camping mobs is such "abuse" and you refuse to do it. You people are making your guilds look like a bunch of whiners.

wow look at you talking about shit YOU have no idea about. surprise surprise.

[azeth]

@ G13, im not part of the raiding scene yet and clearly am not claiming to be, but just wondering - are you comfortable/okay with the current system (poopsocking/camping/whatever you want to call it)? Or are you just accepting it more than these other folks with ideas to change it?

[Skope]

Here's yet another reason it doesn't work, and this just happened 20 minutes ago:

http://i30.tinypic.com/29kthdx.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/29kthdx.jpg

The rules were disobeyed either by both sides, or by at least one. Whether it was a premature call or a late call that was excused, it still went down fishy.

Ektar roll calls, WI responds, seemingly too late and are still granted a 30 minute timer.

Or, Ektar roll calls, WI responds but Ektar doesn't timestamp or claims they didn't respond in time but actually did.

[Messianic]

Does anyone think Kunark will alleviate current end-game problems? Honest question, as i'm not embroiled in all this drama...

[Supreme]

lol, you realize this is a rotation right? The only difference is that you all leave your characters online for days on end.

This stuff can't go on forever, folks will burn out and move on, rinse & repeat. I have an idea, let me chat with Nilbog. I think I can satiate both sides here.

Actually it would not be a rotation if the guilds that are currently perma camping are confronted with a 5th guild+.

I know that people will scream it is not classic however if the devs of the original EQ had a way to alleviate this problem they would have. Their goal was customer retention and to make money not run players off. Right now we are allowing ourselves to be dominated by some thought that the original EQ was designed this way on PURPOSE and not because there was a BETTER WAY.

I anxious look forward to what ever idea you have in this matter Aeolwind.

[Humerox]

lol, you realize this is a rotation right? The only difference is that you all leave your characters online for days on end.

This stuff can't go on forever, folks will burn out and move on, rinse & repeat. I have an idea, let me chat with Nilbog. I think I can satiate both sides here.

Thank you.

[odizzido]

So you actually want to make it more tedious and difficult to camp mobs? Then when people do that you're just going to complain more.

I think you missed the point of the post, and I have no interest in explaining it to you if you don't understand. You can try re-reading it I guess.

I imagine everyone else who isn't here just to be loud understands though.

[G13]

@ G13, im not part of the raiding scene yet and clearly am not claiming to be, but just wondering - are you comfortable/okay with the current system (poopsocking/camping/whatever you want to call it)? Or are you just accepting it more than these other folks with ideas to change it?

It's not a question of being "comfortable" with the raiding scene.

People don't seem to understand that this is non instanced content. 5 mobs on a variance timer. The majority of these 5 mobs have a 1 week spawn cycle. We're talking bread crumbs for a lot of hungry people/guilds.

There is no possible way you are ever going to stop camping. FFA? Camp
FTE? Camp. Any guild with decent leadership will use the tactics necessary to make sure their raid force is in the best possible position to get the mob when it spawns. That means being ready, in the zone, when the boss pops. No guild owes any of you whining motherf*ckers a damn thing. The role of the officers of IB, DA, Wi is to kill bosses and gear up their guilds. Not to give in to the demands of a bunch of board warriors.

You still have to clear trash. You still have to pull the lair. You still have to mobilize at a moment's notice when the boss pops if someone is calling timers and roll calls and you have to execute within 30 minutes or all that time spent waiting for the mob is wasted. The GMs have already said they are NOT getting involved with the raid rules or the raid scene and for good reason. You are not going to please everyone and the reason being is because not everyone plays this game for the same reasons.

The guilds bitching and complaining they aren't getting mobs and calling the other guilds "poopsockers" play this game to "Heya" in /gu and for a bit of nostalgia. They aren't hardcore. They don't play the guild vs guild game. I can only speculate as to why they don't, but it just seems like they have poor leadership or are unmotivated to try and gear up their members.

They've outright said. " We won't camp ", which is fine, but they've never done anything to try and get a crack at a mob without camping which is VERY possible to do. I find it ironic that people in Divinity of all guilds are shitting up these threads talking shit about "poopsocking" and "camping" when that's EXACTLY what they did to get their first Vox kill many months ago. They chose, as a guild, to do it one time. (That was long before DA even existed, so you bitches need to go rake up your own backyard before you start slinging insults.) For them now to troll up threads judging other guilds doing EXACTLY what they did is beyond hypocrisy.

Personally, I don't speak for a specific guild. What I do is recognize what is truly going on here which is guild VS guild competition. Classic raiding is horribly outdated with the precision and communication being used for raiding such a small amount of content today. The inevitable conclusion to this type of organization is camping. Prioritizing. Choosing targets WAY in advance. The current raid rules actually make this possible without being a total shitfest of trains and KSing. Both DA and IB, for the most part, have generally played by the rules. Not all the time, but enough to where the current system has integrity. The raiding guilds have been playing this game within this structure for a long time now. I'm sure people that were clearing hate trash 6 months ago that didn't want to compete in this environment envisioned these guilds burning out and dying but that hasn't happened. So what you are seeing now is the frustration that has built up for months as these second tiered guilds have continued to kill their shiverbacks and Ire ghasts for the 1000th time and have nothing to show for it.

[Humerox]

They've outright said. " We won't camp ", which is fine, but they've never done anything to try and get a crack at a mob without camping which is VERY possible to do. I find it ironic that people in Divinity of all guilds are shitting up these threads talking shit about "poopsocking" and "camping" when that's EXACTLY what they did to get their first Vox kill many months ago.

First of all, stop posting on an alt account. You want to talk, let everyone know who you are.

Secondly, Divinity didn't keep 15 people online AFK during that incident.

Daydrem and a few others rotated in and out throughout a Sunday night while we chatted with IB trackers. When Vox popped, we mobilized and had 15 in just barely before IB did.

Secondly, as Hogwash said...you don't have a clue as to what effort people are making to attempt to bring pressure on the camping. That's evident.

Last of all, as Aeolwind summarized beautifully, poopsocking itself is a forced rotation. All you have to do is keep a toon online constantly.

[G13]

First of all, stop posting on an alt account. You want to talk, let everyone know who you are.

Secondly, Divinity didn't keep 15 people online AFK during that incident.

Then you got lucky that another guild didn't roll in with a force of 15 and take claim from you. Doesn't change the fact you camped Vox for 3 days. And yes, you had a force of more than 15 on and off there for 3 days. You also camped out a large number of people in the zone. Stop trying to deny your guild didn't set the precedent. They absolutely did.

Daydrem and a few others rotated in and out throughout a Sunday night while we chatted with IB trackers. When Vox popped, we mobilized and had 15 in just barely before IB did.

Right. So you understand that you have to mobilize for raid targets. Guilds are just doing it now far in advance. You obviously would have been better prepared if you had mobilized sooner, instead of waiting for Vox to pop. And what you saying actually isn't completely true. You had a force there for days and it was more than just a few people. There was a specific thread about it where IB was complaining it was going to lead to the situation we see ourselves in now. Go back and read Wrei's posts. He was quite clear.

Secondly, as Hogwash said...you don't have a clue as to what effort people are making to attempt to bring pressure on the camping. That's evident.

I know more than you do apparently. Tell me, when does Remedy, Trans and Divinity ever pressure anyone. When do they call timers. When do they role call? Answer - Never

Last of all, as Aeolwind summarized beautifully, poopsocking itself is a forced rotation. All you have to do is keep a toon online constantly.

Congats on knowing what IB and DA stated months ago. Everyone knows the cblocks and which mobs give you opportunity for what next mob and so forth. The competing guilds have all the timers and everything locked up to a T.

[Humerox]

Then you got lucky that another guild didn't roll in with a force of 15 and take claim from you. Doesn't change the fact you camped Vox for 3 days. And yes, you had a force of more than 15 on and off there for 3 days. You also camped out a large number of people in the zone. Stop trying to deny your guild didn't set the precedent. They absolutely did.

Total and complete falsehood. I was there. We did not have a force of 15 there for 3 days. We stayed throughout a single day, and it wasn't with 15 people. Don't know where you're getting your info, but it's clear you weren't there. Nothing Divinity did was planned in advance, it was spur-of-the-moment.



Right. So you understand that you have to mobilize for raid targets. Guilds are just doing it now far in advance. You obviously would have been better prepared if you had mobilized sooner, instead of waiting for Vox to pop. And what you saying actually isn't completely true. You had a force there for days and it was more than just a few people. There was a specific thread about it where IB was complaining it was going to lead to the situation we see ourselves in now. Go back and read Wrei's posts. He was quite clear.

I don't have to rely on posts, bro. I sat up and chatted with Daydrem most of that night when we were the only two Div members in zone. Thanks, tho.



I know more than you do apparently. Tell me, when does Remedy and Divinity ever pressure anyone. When do they call timers. When do they role call? Answer - Never

I'll grant you we haven't brought a lot of pressure to bear yet. But we will.



Congats on knowing what IB and DA stated months ago. Everyone knows the cblocks and which mobs give you opportunity for what next mob and so forth. The competing guilds have all the timers and everything locked up to a T.

Our rep to the guild summit - Trimm - stated that himself, which I quoted in an earlier post. So yeah ,we knew it could be done. We thought people would have the integrity to actually compete. We were wrong.

Doesn't change the fact that a rotation is already in place. The only requirement is the willingness to keep an avatar online constantly. No competition, no effort involved.

[Overcast]

Does anyone think Kunark will alleviate current end-game problems? Honest question, as i'm not embroiled in all this drama...

It will move on to the Kunark bosses. Chances are that the desire to camp the old world bosses will lessen dramatically.

[Buhbuh]

For all the people complaining - you want to PvE but the most fundamental entreaty to contend for it is to PvP.

Another thing is that PoSky will take forever to get through so other guilds can be taking the poopsock rotations while people are in Sky for hours on end.

Still though, an end to this discussion is literally PvP, guild wars or just plain hard coded. That's the simple way, but I'm sure dev's will think of something.

[Uaellaen]

I know more than you do apparently. Tell me, when does Remedy and Divinity ever pressure anyone. When do they call timers. When do they role call? Answer - Never

we dont .. why should we? its a game and not a stress factor you tool

oh and also .. stop posting on an anon account you troll ... too scared to reveal who you are?

[Supreme]

It's not a question of being "comfortable" with the raiding scene.

People don't seem to understand that this is non instanced content. 5 mobs on a variance timer. The majority of these 5 mobs have a 1 week spawn cycle. We're talking bread crumbs for a lot of hungry people/guilds.

There is no possible way you are ever going to stop camping. FFA? Camp
FTE? Camp. Any guild with decent leadership will use the tactics necessary to make sure their raid force is in the best possible position to get the mob when it spawns. That means being ready, in the zone, when the boss pops. No guild owes any of you whining motherf*ckers a damn thing. The role of the officers of IB, DA, Wi is to kill bosses and gear up their guilds. Not to give in to the demands of a bunch of board warriors.

You still have to clear trash. You still have to pull the lair. You still have to mobilize at a moment's notice when the boss pops if someone is calling timers and roll calls and you have to execute within 30 minutes or all that time spent waiting for the mob is wasted. The GMs have already said they are NOT getting involved with the raid rules or the raid scene and for good reason. You are not going to please everyone and the reason being is because not everyone plays this game for the same reasons.

The guilds bitching and complaining they aren't getting mobs and calling the other guilds "poopsockers" play this game to "Heya" in /gu and for a bit of nostalgia. They aren't hardcore. They don't play the guild vs guild game. I can only speculate as to why they don't, but it just seems like they have poor leadership or are unmotivated to try and gear up their members.

They've outright said. " We won't camp ", which is fine, but they've never done anything to try and get a crack at a mob without camping which is VERY possible to do. I find it ironic that people in Divinity of all guilds are shitting up these threads talking shit about "poopsocking" and "camping" when that's EXACTLY what they did to get their first Vox kill many months ago. They chose, as a guild, to do it one time. (That was long before DA even existed, so you bitches need to go rake up your own backyard before you start slinging insults.) For them now to troll up threads judging other guilds doing EXACTLY what they did is beyond hypocrisy.

Personally, I don't speak for a specific guild. What I do is recognize what is truly going on here which is guild VS guild competition. Classic raiding is horribly outdated with the precision and communication being used for raiding such a small amount of content today. The inevitable conclusion to this type of organization is camping. Prioritizing. Choosing targets WAY in advance. The current raid rules actually make this possible without being a total shitfest of trains and KSing. Both DA and IB, for the most part, have generally played by the rules. Not all the time, but enough to where the current system has integrity. The raiding guilds have been playing this game within this structure for a long time now. I'm sure people that were clearing hate trash 6 months ago that didn't want to compete in this environment envisioned these guilds burning out and dying but that hasn't happened. So what you are seeing now is the frustration that has built up for months as these second tiered guilds have continued to kill their shiverbacks and Ire ghasts for the 1000th time and have nothing to show for it.

You sound mad brah~

[Nizzarr]

You sound mad brah~

You sound pretty fucking dumb trolling your own thread, brah.

[Bumamgar]

Here's yet another reason it doesn't work, and this just happened 20 minutes ago:

The rules were disobeyed either by both sides, or by at least one. Whether it was a premature call or a late call that was excused, it still went down fishy.

Ektar roll calls, WI responds, seemingly too late and are still granted a 30 minute timer.

Or, Ektar roll calls, WI responds but Ektar doesn't timestamp or claims they didn't respond in time but actually did.
Nothing fishy going on here. WI and IB honored the server rules as laid down by Nilbog. IB gave us our 30 minutes and we killed Naggy within that time.

Ektar tried to impose some additional rules on the situation, and I promptly ignored him. I'm not against working within an additional set of player created rules, but no one handed me a rulebook when I formed WI and started raiding, and waiting till I'm running a raid under a 30 minute timer at 8:30 in the morning on a Monday to inform me of these "extra" rules and expecting me to honor them sight unseen and back down from a mob I've just spent 5 days camping is ludicrous. I'm sure I'll be involved in further discussions with the other raiding guilds on this server and come to an agreement, but springing it as a surprise mid-raid is pretty lame, imho. It was well known that WI was camping Naggy, and there was plenty of time for Ektar to send me a tell during that time to make sure I was aware of whatever additional rules beyond the official GM created rules I was going to be expected to know about and adhere to.

[Supreme]

You sound pretty fucking dumb trolling your own thread, brah.

Wow..if it isn't that pot again...

trying to call the kettle black of all things!

[Aeolwind]

lol, ya'll just don't get it do you?