Min maxing Shamans

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

So I was reading the wiki for Shamans with regards to the STA vs WIS argument and in my head I can't seem to reconcile the order this server seems to place on which race is the best.

The general consensus I can see is that Troll > Ogre > Barb/Iksar but from what I've worked out based on the mana pool vs health pool argument as well as the subjective importance of each of the racial traits it should be closer to Troll > Iksar > Barb > Ogre. Now, I should preface the rest of the thread with the fact that I am not a min/maxer; I just want to see if or why I'm missing something when I've approached the problem and of course the racial benefits are completely subjective so relative importance is just that; relative.

I'm not too well written so I'll try and do this without jumping around in thoughts too much. For all intents and purposes the races are equal with regards to base mana regeneration as they all have the same skill caps so we can eliminate that from the equation. In terms of health regen, we can safely place the 4 races into two tiers effectively getting regen races vs non regen races (Troll and Iksar vs Barb and Ogre). Below ill run through a basic thought experiment using Ogres and Barbarians because I play a Barbarian.

For the sake of keeping it simple I will do what I did above and eliminate factors that are the same between the two races because it will have no bearing on the outcome when comparing regen vs non regen. Also the wiki is down so numbers are mostly just guesswork. At 55 I currently have 2203 mana and 1700hp self buffed (Sta and Kragg). Using canni 3 at 100hp for 66 mana I have an effective mana depth of 3061 (assuming canni down to above 20% to avoid low hp agro and canni 3 conversion). I also have more of a mana build (wis, +mana). In grouping with a similar geared Ogre with more of an hp build, he had 2100hp buffed and 1750 mana. Using the same parameters as before (canni to just above 20% to avoid low hp agro) he would have an effective mana pool 2877 meaning the Barb is superior in that regard. Now, since we regen at the same rate what happens below 100% mana and above 0% is effectively the same (keep in mind Torpor changes everything).

So the argument I'm trying to make here is, based on the knowledge we have of the above scenario, why would an Ogre make a better Shaman? Does front bash-stun immunity really overwrite faction, xp penalty, size difference and mana pool of a Barb? I mean, none of this really fleshes out over an extended fight because as long as you're neither fm or oom you are essentially doing the same thing but really, if I look at this I can see a Barb shaman being better at a hard camp or a solo-challenge.

I should note that you can do the same comparison with Trolls and Iksars with the only defining difference being gear selection for the Iksar. I place these two higher because regen = more mana regen which is, IMO the most valuable trait and boosts both races above the other two.

Anyways I'm curious to know the communities thoughts on this and would like to see how this really pans out. I see the min maxing community overwhelmingly choosing Ogres over Barbs and would like to know of I'm missing something.

Thanks for taking the time to read all the way.

[theaetatus]

Faction and xp penalty are irrelevant if you're min/maxing. Size is irrelevant, you have shrink. Mana pool is irrelevant as long as you have a reasonable amount, and you'll be hitting the wis soft cap at least anyway.

All it comes down to is regen vs stun immunity vs available toys for the race, and regen becomes mostly irrelevant when you get torpor.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Faction and xp penalty are irrelevant if you're min/maxing. Size is irrelevant, you have shrink. Mana pool is irrelevant as long as you have a reasonable amount, and you'll be hitting the wis soft cap at least anyway.

All it comes down to is regen vs stun immunity vs available toys for the race, and regen becomes mostly irrelevant when you get torpor.

Good points - I guess I didn't take into account the true meaning of min-max. I would argue about soft cap since 95%+ of the server does not have BIS or even gears for WIS really.

Thanks for the reply!

[mgellan]

Really you're comparing a +wis/mana build versus an AC/HP build (ignoring stun immunity for the time being) - the obvious problem with +wis/mana builds is the idea that a corpse has no mana so survivability comes into play :) If you're getting beaten on with low AC then your hp pool to canni is correspondingly lower as well. My Barb Shaman is aiming at 900ac, 2000hp self-buffed (which I presume is a moderately decent build) and to do so is losing wisdom as the price.

Doing that while trying to also get to 200MR is turning into a bit of a trick ...

Regards,
Mg

[BlkCamel]

Simple way to look at it is as such.

Barb Shaman = Best Raid Buffer due to large mana pool and easiest travel/xp mod
Troll Shaman= Best Group Healer w/solo ability
Iksar Shaman= Same As above without the plate
Ogre Shaman= Best Raid/Group Slower and Soloing summoning mobs due to Innate Frontal Stun

For overall general use, Group/Raid/Solo I would say Troll is best due to avail gear (JBB, Snare Clicky) and innate regen.

I personally went Ogre after playing Barb Shaman on live 99-06 because to me Frontal stun immunity is OP. Many times on live that slow would resist and mob comes running only to have your root/heal/second slow interrupt and my corpse on the ground.

[Tikker]

iksar has the best leveling path (imo)

end game, ogre is the best

Barb is least ugly, if that's important to you

troll is most ugly, if that's important too!

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Thanks for providing those answers guys! Some really good answers here!

[liveitup1216]

If you're going for top min/max then go Iksar. Velious makes Iksar top choice for all the classes since much of the gear is iksar usable and our regen/ac bonus gets better.

[blondeattk]

I know this is nt really related, but I used to do corpse drags in Kael drakkel (dead raids/grps)with my rallos zek ogre shaman, because I wasnt kos to most of the giants.

COuld be worth have an alt for this reason......(Drop the corpse when giants run towards you.)

SOme the stuff around tormax is on a kos faction tho.....but with care you can get most places in the zone. Obviously you dont kill giant son that toon.

[liveitup1216]

True, ogres who worship rallos start off non-kos with most or all of Kael I forget.

[Swish]

Are the alchemy vendors fixed in Cabilis yet? I'd factor that into my choice :P

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Are the alchemy vendors fixed in Cabilis yet? I'd factor that into my choice :P

Reasons to be a troll and ogre IMO

[Something'Witty]

iksar has the best leveling path (imo)

end game, ogre is the best

Barb is least ugly, if that's important to you

troll is most ugly, if that's important too!

Heh, I tried to get my wife to play a troll or ogre, but she rolled a barb just cause of the looks!

[Swish]

Heh, I tried to get my wife to play a troll or ogre, but she rolled a barb just cause of the looks!

Damn, there's nothing more annoying than the sound of a barb female getting hit... my condolences :(

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Damn, there's nothing more annoying than the sound of a barb female getting hit... my condolences :(

Or any large (big boned) female character.

Plate wearing Barbarians are IMO one of the best looking races in Norrath (just behind half elves).

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

So having really gotten my ass kicked by greater warbone skeles upstairs in city of mist I have a new appreciation for frontal stun immunity. My sexy sexy Shaman just can't be as good with stuff beating on him. I might only be accepted in exp groups from this point forward due to my rugged good looks and slightly inferior class abilities.

Sad panda etc....

[BlkCamel]

So having really gotten my ass kicked by greater warbone skeles upstairs in city of mist I have a new appreciation for frontal stun immunity. My sexy sexy Shaman just can't be as good with stuff beating on him. I might only be accepted in exp groups from this point forward due to my rugged good looks and slightly inferior class abilities.

Sad panda etc....

Here is the trick to doing CoM upstairs prior to level 56(when we get 3 minute root).

They key is to ALWAYS cast Malaisement on the Warboned Skele and Wraith's (highest level mobs). Some of the goo's can be resistant, but not all of them, so you can wait to see if root breaks early on them before spending the mana on Malaisement.

Casting Malaisement makes Enstil last for max duration, which is just a bit over an Epic click in length.

1.Root with ENSTILL ONLY(60mana 96 second duration).
2.Once you have aggro'd and rooted mob cast Level 34 Malaisement(http://wiki.project1999.com/Malaisement)

Or Pull with level 34 Malaisement and start at step 3

3.Re-root with ENSTILL
4. Click Epic(84 second duration).
5. Start re-rooting when you see Epic damage tick for 146dmg
6. Immediately Epic click and move on to next mob.
7. Re-do step 5 and 6 every-time Epic hits 146dmg on mob.

If you follow these steps you will be able to root/rot 3-4 mobs at a time, which is the only way this is effective since we are only using Epic for damage, saving all other mana for Enstill's, Malaisement, and Regen.

As an Ogre I sometimes had 5 or 6 mobs rooted at once if I got greedy and pulled without watching timers for respawn.


I did 54-56 on upper level using these tactics as an Ogre, but even a Barb should be able to hang. Just avoid being hit by using Malaisement for MAX Duration Enstills.

_______________________________________
:DCheck out my Evil Shaman Solo Guide Level 1-56+ (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126844)

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Here is the trick to doing CoM upstairs prior to level 56(when we get 3 minute root).

They key is to ALWAYS cast Malaisement on the Warboned Skele and Wraith's (highest level mobs). Some of the goo's can be resistant, but not all of them, so you can wait to see if root breaks early on them before spending the mana on Malaisement.

Casting Malaisement makes Enstil last for max duration, which is just a bit over an Epic click in length.

1.Root with ENSTILL ONLY(60mana 96 second duration).
2.Once you have aggro'd and rooted mob cast Level 34 Malaisement(http://wiki.project1999.com/Malaisement)

Or Pull with level 34 Malaisement and start at step 3

3.Re-root with ENSTILL
4. Click Epic(84 second duration).
5. Start re-rooting when you see Epic damage tick for 146dmg
6. Immediately Epic click and move on to next mob.
7. Re-do step 5 and 6 every-time Epic hits 146dmg on mob.

If you follow these steps you will be able to root/rot 3-4 mobs at a time, which is the only way this is effective since we are only using Epic for damage, saving all other mana for Enstill's, Malaisement, and Regen.

As an Ogre I sometimes had 5 or 6 mobs rooted at once if I got greedy and pulled without watching timers for respawn.


I did 54-56 on upper level using these tactics as an Ogre, but even a Barb should be able to hang. Just avoid being hit by using Malaisement for MAX Duration Enstills.

_______________________________________
:DCheck out my Evil Shaman Solo Guide Level 1-56+ (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126844)

This is fantastic! This was only my second time up and at this point I had only really epic rotted anything down that was fairly non resistant.

Thanks for your info good sir!

[Tewaz]

I like this thread. The min, maxing talk is all fun and games until a mob is pounding your face and you can't root it, lol.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I like this thread. The min, maxing talk is all fun and games until a mob is pounding your face and you can't root it, lol.

Yes, this is where I think I'm supposed to come in and rattle off about closing the racial gap with skill but....

I got told how to do it the proper way by an Ogre. I has sad

[BlkCamel]

This is fantastic! This was only my second time up and at this point I had only really epic rotted anything down that was fairly non resistant.

Thanks for your info good sir!

No problem. After you are Level 56 and you get 3 minute root everything becomes easier. Almost never have to use Malo line to get full duration. Also you get 2 epic clicks per root instead of just 1 which really is the most helpful thing.

One more tip is to find a Necro in zone and get a DMF. If you don't have a DMF you want to make sure you keep levitate on you. This way you can see over mobs and sit on the wall if you need to adjust positioning to avoid being hit. I fell off twice which caused me to die before I gave up and just kept Levitate on myself. Also Binding on top of the Arena roof is a good idea so if you do have to run off a train or die can just gate back to top and save your Shrink pots.

[Something'Witty]

Just to add to the OP topic, I played a troll shm and then race changed to ogre during PoP on Fippy (progression server). Ogre stun immunity was way OP compared to troll regen and clicky snare, at least high end.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

No problem. After you are Level 56 and you get 3 minute root everything becomes easier. Almost never have to use Malo line to get full duration. Also you get 2 epic clicks per root instead of just 1 which really is the most helpful thing.

One more tip is to find a Necro in zone and get a DMF. If you don't have a DMF you want to make sure you keep levitate on you. This way you can see over mobs and sit on the wall if you need to adjust positioning to avoid being hit. I fell off twice which caused me to die before I gave up and just kept Levitate on myself. Also Binding on top of the Arena roof is a good idea so if you do have to run off a train or die can just gate back to top and save your Shrink pots.

What the value of binding on the roof? Can I get access to the catwalks from there without lev in the event of a CR?

Also how would it work with regards to lathing mobs coming for you if you hate. Would you have enough time to camp out agro?

Sorry for all the stupid questions - played a defensive shaman for my career so this soloing business is fairly new to me.

[BlkCamel]

What the value of binding on the roof? Can I get access to the catwalks from there without lev in the event of a CR?

Also how would it work with regards to lathing mobs coming for you if you hate. Would you have enough time to camp out agro?

Sorry for all the stupid questions - played a defensive shaman for my career so this soloing business is fairly new to me.

Main benefit is saving your shrink pots to get back up. I don't know if Barb has this issue. I know Trolls and Ogre need shrink to get up. If you die up there you can jump across onto ledge from roof to get body. Or drop down and use corpse drag. The ledge is not high enough to decline the drag.

I would never attempt to gate and log if I saw trouble, because you are going to train Black Reavers on the zone if mobs chase after you. With lev up can just sprint to zone-line and zone if your in trouble then gate back to top of arena from EJ. This way any mistakes you make dont cost you 15-20 mins of play time.

Just Heal after you zoned and gate back med up for a minute and start fighting again. 5 mins vs 15+mins on recovery. Also it gives you a bit of confidence because you know if things go bad can just get right back to xping. There were times I should have zoned off mobs but stayed because I did not want to have to fight temple mob/shrink/invis back up and agro immediately when I get there.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Main benefit is saving your shrink pots to get back up. I don't know if Barb has this issue. I know Trolls and Ogre need shrink to get up. If you die up there you can jump across onto ledge from roof to get body. Or drop down and use corpse drag. The ledge is not high enough to decline the drag.

I would never attempt to gate and log if I saw trouble, because you are going to train Black Reavers on the zone if mobs chase after you. With lev up can just sprint to zone-line and zone if your in trouble then gate back to top of arena from EJ. This way any mistakes you make dont cost you 15-20 mins of play time.

Just Heal after you zoned and gate back med up for a minute and start fighting again. 5 mins vs 15+mins on recovery. Also it gives you a bit of confidence because you know if things go bad can just get right back to xping. There were times I should have zoned off mobs but stayed because I did not want to have to fight temple mob/shrink/invis back up and agro immediately when I get there.

Awesome! I rarely change my bind point unless I'm at a cash/loot spot and need to bend frequently.

For the record Barb doesn't have to shrink to get up on top.

This is a fantastic guide, thanks for sharing it!

[BlkCamel]

Awesome! I rarely change my bind point unless I'm at a cash/loot spot and need to bend frequently.

For the record Barb doesn't have to shrink to get up on top.

This is a fantastic guide, thanks for sharing it!

Curious if you tried this again with the above tactics? And if so, How did it go?

Once you hit 56 and get 3 minute root there are a couple cool places you can go.

[Zeonick]

Curious if you tried this again with the above tactics? And if so, How did it go?

Once you hit 56 and get 3 minute root there are a couple cool places you can go.

I was in CoM the other day and yumyums was up there owning it up :) So i'm guessing your advice went a long way! I know at one point he came down to help me and then gated up top, so it sounds like he followed your advice!

[BlkCamel]

I was in CoM the other day and yumyums was up there owning it up :) So i'm guessing your advice went a long way! I know at one point he came down to help me and then gated up top, so it sounds like he followed your advice!

Atta boy/girl! Just what I wanted to hear!:D

[whippetofspades]

Someone worked out a while ago that with Turgur's mobs will bash approximately every 32 seconds. Even Togor's reduces attacks so drastically as to make stun-interrupts more-or-less a non-issue. Point is, if you can't get a root off in a 32 second timeframe you've got bigger problems than what race you play.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Torpor is a level 60 spell. Yes, innate regen is sort of irrelevent if you get Torpor, but 1-59 is not an insignificant part of the game and innate regen makes levelling a lot less painful (the painfulness of which is not to be underestimated 1-34). I personally know I will probably never get my shaman to 60 and if I do probably won't be able to afford Torpor. I'm pretty casual though.

Barb has access to BSH which along with the JBB can dish out some pretty serious mana free DPS.

All races have practical advantages except Iksar, whose only advantage is their sweet looks.

[liveitup1216]

All races have practical advantages except Iksar, whose only advantage is their sweet looks.

And ac bonus, and regen, and forage, and 100 base swimming, and ultravision, and that Velious makes Iksar master race for all their available classes. ;)

[papercolor]

Barbs do not need shrink to get up. I'm 53 with fungi, jbb and epic and have NO problems holding 4 to 5 mobs. BlkCamel described the way to do it so I will not go over that. Just gota use your epic to time your roots.

Also I have never had any problems with getting stunned. Not saying I dont but its never a life or death situation.

[Lojik]

Apparently trolls can get up top without a shrink pot if you have luclin models on.

[theaetatus]

It's when mobs aren't slowed and you have a few on you that stun immunity really shines, in 'oh shit' situations when you get a bunch of unexpected adds or a train.

[Zumei]

Damn you for sharing this great exp spot now it's gonna be over camped =(

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Damn you for sharing this great exp spot now it's gonna be over camped =(

Hahaha I feel bad now but fwiw there's plenty of room up top. I personally enjoy the very top ramparts.

[Swish]

Going up there on my necro today, ty for the idea <3

[fishingme]

Going up there on my necro today, ty for the idea <3

haha, I've seen so many necros die up there it makes me happy =)