About Spawn variance....

[Supreme]

The idea of +/- 48 hours seems sound *cough* but has anyone considered that it really could decrease the number of times in a 30 day span that the boss mob would spawn?

Without the spawn variance you could guarantee to see 4 vox/naggy/ct/innoruuks in a month assuming they was killed within 1-2 hours after spawn.

With the spawn variance if CT goes over his timer (by up to 48 hours) even once that means instead of 4 CTs we would only see 3.

I would rather see spawn variance simple be 5-7 day respawn so we could ensure that CT/Inny/Vox/Naggy will should up at least 4 times a month.

Current System

4 Primary Raid targets (CT/Inny/Vox/Naggy) with +/- 48 hours means that the server raid guilds can see between 20 (max spawns) to 12 (minimum spawns).

New System

4 Primary Raid targets (CT/Inny/Vox/Naggy) with 5-7 day variance means that the server raid guilds can see between 20 (max spawns) to 16 (minimum spawns).


In addition this will also cause some windows to actually overlap so that no one single guild can lock down 2 raid targets with poopsocking. And would, i feel, be more in line with live server reboots causing raid mobs to respawn.

I look forward to feedback.

[Troy]

Why not just make all 4 pop at the exact same time (as each other, still keep the actual time varied)? That would guarantee that no one guild could camp them all unless they're HUGE.

[Supreme]

Why not just make all 4 pop at the exact same time (as each other, still keep the actual time varied)? That would guarantee that no one guild could camp them all unless they're HUGE.

invariably someone would "try".

[HippoNipple]

Well if they would try to do all 4 at once then they would for sure own your version of the spawn times and be able to do 2 at a time.

[rioisk]

Or just agree on a rotation and quit poopsocking. I think we'd all enjoy the game more.

[Bumamgar]

Why pick an arbitrary cycle like 30 days?

With any system based on variance you will invariably have a cycle that has fewer spawns than another cycle. However, the current system results in the same AVERAGE amount of spawns as a non-variant system.

[astarothel]

Or just agree on a rotation and quit poopsocking. I think we'd all enjoy the game more.

lolrotation.

[randomer]

changing the variance isnt going to make any difference your still going to have the same 2 guilds camping raid mobs for days,but i like the idea of having all the boss mobs spawn at the same time,the top guilds would still get most of the spawns but would at least give other guilds a chance at raid mobs.

[Supreme]

Why pick an arbitrary cycle like 30 days?

With any system based on variance you will invariably have a cycle that has fewer spawns than another cycle. However, the current system results in the same AVERAGE amount of spawns as a non-variant system.

30 days is relative to a month we could expand the numbers to represent a year if that would get the point across.

The reality that on live there was ALWAYS at least 16 spawns per month..not an average spawn of 16. The average was closer to 18 spawns in a 30 day cycle. This was due to bosses respawning on server reboots etc.

My point is right now we are stating the average of 16 is acceptable. I would like to see 16 spawns in a 30 day cycle be the minimum. Thus providing 4 more chances for raid content to be available.

[fastboy21]

OP,

your logic is so flawed i don't know where to begin....

you're arbitrarily picking a very small time frame and pointing out (the obvious) implications.

Let's see...I'd like to see heads come up 5 out of every 10 flips of my quarter. This is the most fair thing because a coin has two sides, hence we should get heads five of every 10 times...but look! Its possible that I can get heads 8, 9, or even all 10 times! I have done extensive testing, and this is really possible! The universe is bugged! We need to do something about this before the fabric of the universe unravels! PLZ HELPS MEZ!

[Nedala]

lolrotation.

yeah roatation sucks because camping mobs for 90 hours i a huge competition...oh...wait

[astarothel]

yeah roatation sucks because camping mobs for 90 hours i a huge competition...oh...wait

No matter how fucking terrible poopsocking is, at least it rewards effort.

lolrotation.

[Nedala]

there is no competetion there and it must be boring as hell. even if i were in IB or DA where you get all the fat loot i would prefer a rotation over this lame camping shit. Just my opinion

[guineapig]

No matter how fucking terrible poopsocking is, at least it rewards effort.

lolrotation.

loleffort.

Do you use Hanes or Fruit of the Loom?

[Supreme]

OP,

your logic is so flawed i don't know where to begin....

you're arbitrarily picking a very small time frame and pointing out (the obvious) implications.

Let's see...I'd like to see heads come up 5 out of every 10 flips of my quarter. This is the most fair thing because a coin has two sides, hence we should get heads five of every 10 times...but look! Its possible that I can get heads 8, 9, or even all 10 times! I have done extensive testing, and this is really possible! The universe is bugged! We need to do something about this before the fabric of the universe unravels! PLZ HELPS MEZ!


I expected a simple minded post like this....congrats on trying to be clever.



On live EVERY raid mob was on a 7 day spawn from the time it was killed. If the raid mob was killed within 1-2 hours of spawning (which almost ALWAYS was the case) that means you would see 4 of each of the 4 MAJOR raid mobs in a month.

Why a month?

BECAUSE THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT OF REFERENCE.

Based on this time frame of ONE MONTH you could expect to see guaranteed 16 raid mob spawns. You could also expect to see all FOUR raid mobs spawn when the server rebooted. This lead to anywhere between 20-28 raid mobs spawning.

Now for you generation next kids that did not play Everquest in 1999...Every server reset would result in every raid mob respawning!


Right now we have ...6 guilds that can do the end content and our AVERAGE is 16 within a 30 day period when we should be seeing a MINIMUM of 16 raid mobs per month. We should be seeing an average of 20 per month with 16 being the minimum and 24 being the max...but i digress


To say that "The universe is bugged" in a Emu is irrelevant. To compare the number of raid mobs that spawn to flipping a coin and it coming up heads or tails does not match the problem at hand. You would have to take 4 coins put them together and then flip them every second for 4 days. Then you would have to take into FACT that "Classic Content" guaranteed mobs spawned within 7 days...so your 8th and 9th day would by reference always come up SPAWN.

A month does not work for you? Ok lets take it based on 365 days with a total number of spawns within a year for 1 mob. 1 Mob is on a 5-9 day spawn that means your HIGHEST possible spawn for a single mob in a year is 73 times and your LOWEST possible spawn for a single mob is 40. The average is 56. OMG! see we get better than 1 spawn per week!

But that is where you are wrong. On live the number is GUARANTEED 52 times if the mob is killed within 1-2 hours and with it respawning on server reboots.

But but..we can get it up to 73 times! Again this is HIGHLY unlikely that we will see a single boss mob spawn 73 times in a 365 period. Just like it will be high unlikely that we will ever see 20-12 boss mobs within a 30 day period.


Point is that we are all cheating ourselves. The problems with the spawn variance are obvious and by improving the spawn variance to be more in line with true "Classic" this server will be a better environment.

[fastboy21]

i actually laughed out loud irl when the guy who doesn't understand simple probability called me simple minded.

You asked for feedback:
Your idea isn't good. Close the thread.

Now, before you post again to call me another name why don't you scroll through the responses to your brilliant idea and count the number of folks who posted anything to the effect of "this is a good idea...lets do it."

[astarothel]

loleffort.

Yeah. At least they're putting in time, which corresponds to effort, versus a rotation that rewards logging in only when your target is up.

There's even less competition in rotation.

Irrelevant anyways. There's not even a compacted sphere of wintery precipitation's chance in an imaginary, exothermic location of punishment willed into existence by a vengeful Judeo-Christian God that a straight rotation will ever be adopted by the raiding community on P99.

[Nedala]

There's even less competition in rotation.



its not exactly less competition but less time waste imo.

[rioisk]

its not exactly less competition but less time waste imo.

The unemployed have the time it seems. Obama paying IB/DA to poopsock....what is this country coming to.

[Ingrum]

Any idea that gets us closer to a classic raid environment, especially one as thought out as this, is worth a shot in my opinion. It's not such a dramatic change as to rock the server out of it's poopsocks, but it makes sense and the math is solid.

And to fastboy21 struggling to understand the concept. Don't visit the forums when you're drunk man. You'll save face and you might actually be able to comprehend logic. Supreme's pwn post reply to yours made me lawl. Since you're probably too stubborn to give up and not reply, try to think of something half as well thought out as the OP's before you go making an ass of yourself again... braw.

[Ingrum]

its not exactly less competition but less time waste imo.

This.

[mmiles8]

What you're essentially proposing is a 24 hour spawn variance rather than a 48 hour spawn variance, based around 6 days rather than 7 (a 1 day shorter cycle than currently exists). This is the only reason that your proposal seems more favorable than the current system, a shorter spawn variance, over time, does not mean more kills than a longer spawn variance. Choosing one probable outcome over another equally probable outcome to present a conclusion is called cherry picking and is not statistically sound research. Excel comes with a handy random number generator. I don't mind running the statistics for you. The 10 tests run over the span of a year (52 weeks, not 365 days). There are 8736 hours in 52 weeks.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/mmiles01/24hr.jpg

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/mmiles01/48hr.jpg

So here you have it. No matter what the spawn variance is, you're going to have the exact same probability of mobs over time. If you don't like my numbers, I set the entire thing up to run dynamically. You can recreate the entire experiment on the fly by editing the value of any blank cell on any test sheet, which will cause the random numbers to repopulate. The entire Excel Book is nothing but parameters, random numbers, and charts. The only thing you would have to manually do is run the descriptive statistics tool again on the new numbers, and set the output ranges to E2 and G2 on the Data Analysis sheet for 24 and 48 hours, respectively.

Here's the Spreadsheet (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ur2wua283ayueba/SpawnVariance.xls)

If you want to draw a conclusion, you've got to have some dataz.

[Humerox]

The idea of +/- 48 hours seems sound *cough* but has anyone considered that it really could decrease the number of times in a 30 day span that the boss mob would spawn?

I don't think there's a whole lot of interest in that at the current time, with the current state of affairs.

[Extunarian]

Thanks miles for whipping out the spreadsheet. I really didn't understand how the OP was trying to prove here, and his dismissal of fastboy's post as 'simple' really illustrated that he (the OP) is on shaky ground.

I think this has more to do with wanting to cut down the max camping time from 96 to 48 hours.

[Supreme]

i actually laughed out loud irl when the guy who doesn't understand simple probability called me simple minded.

You asked for feedback:
Your idea isn't good. Close the thread.

Now, before you post again to call me another name why don't you scroll through the responses to your brilliant idea and count the number of folks who posted anything to the effect of "this is a good idea...lets do it."

I will make this response as simple as i can.

It is not about probability. It is about 16 spawns in a 30 day cycle being the MINIMUM number of boss mobs that spawn instead of 12. The current system has 16 boss mobs as the MEDIAN of 12 (lowest number) and 20 (highest number).Which is much more in line with classic than the current system.

[Supreme]

What you're essentially proposing is a 24 hour spawn variance rather than a 48 hour spawn variance, based around 6 days rather than 7 (a 1 day shorter cycle than currently exists). This is the only reason that your proposal seems more favorable than the current system, a shorter spawn variance, over time, does not mean more kills than a longer spawn variance. Choosing one probable outcome over another equally probable outcome to present a conclusion is called cherry picking and is not statistically sound research. Excel comes with a handy random number generator. I don't mind running the statistics for you. The 10 tests run over the span of a year (52 weeks, not 365 days). There are 8736 hours in 52 weeks.

So here you have it. No matter what the spawn variance is, you're going to have the exact same probability of mobs over time. If you don't like my numbers, I set the entire thing up to run dynamically. You can recreate the entire experiment on the fly by editing the value of any blank cell on any test sheet, which will cause the random numbers to repopulate. The entire Excel Book is nothing but parameters, random numbers, and charts. The only thing you would have to manually do is run the descriptive statistics tool again on the new numbers, and set the output ranges to E2 and G2 on the Data Analysis sheet for 24 and 48 hours, respectively.

Here's the Spreadsheet (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ur2wua283ayueba/SpawnVariance.xls)

If you want to draw a conclusion, you've got to have some dataz.



I am suggesting that instead of 16 being the median or mean number of spawns in a month that 16 be the MINIMUM. This would parallel with live and classic Everquest. I am not disputing "probabilities" here. I know that the probabilities are the same no matter if it is 24 48 96 or 8736 hours. We should be seeing a mean number of 18-20 instead of 16.

[Supreme]

Thanks miles for whipping out the spreadsheet. I really didn't understand how the OP was trying to prove here, and his dismissal of fastboy's post as 'simple' really illustrated that he (the OP) is on shaky ground.

I think this has more to do with wanting to cut down the max camping time from 96 to 48 hours.


I am pretty sure on every post i have said the same thing. In either a 30 day or 365 day time frame using the current +/- 48 hour spawn variance we are losing spawns on a server that is stuffed full of guilds capable of doing the content.

By making the average spawns 18 with 20 being the HIGHEST and 16 being the LOWEST that will increase the rate of spawns to be more in line with CLASSIC EVERQUEST. Right now the lowest is 12 with 20 being the highest making the mean 16. 16 should be the minimum not the mean.

[Humerox]

...we are losing spawns on a server that is stuffed full of guilds capable of doing the content.

I had a good chuckle at that. I think you know why. I'm not going to turn this into an R&F, but don't use that argument. Please.

You rock the boat for more boss spawns and it may backfire.

[Sorkin]

Are you considering how many days after your 30 day window it could be before the next spawn? You are looking at only a 30 day window and seem to be assuming that after 30 days, it all resets. Unless they always patch every 30 days, that's not the case. Messing around with spawn variance while keeping average spawn time the same isn't going to affect total mob spawn over a large timeframe.

[Supreme]

Are you considering how many days after your 30 day window it could be before the next spawn? You are looking at only a 30 day window and seem to be assuming that after 30 days, it all resets. Unless they always patch every 30 days, that's not the case. Messing around with spawn variance while keeping average spawn time the same isn't going to affect total mob spawn over a large timeframe.

You can run the same parallel over 365 days or 730 days. There will always be a comparative relation to how many spawns were happening on live compared to here. The +/- 48 hours is reducing the total number of spawns that should be happening based on the idea that this is "Classic Everquest".

[Supreme]

I had a good chuckle at that. I think you know why. I'm not going to turn this into an R&F, but don't use that argument. Please.

You rock the boat for more boss spawns and it may backfire.

Backfire how?

It does not change permacamping or anything of the sort. It simply brings the boss spawns more in line with "CLASSIC EVERQUEST" than this current system.

[mmiles8]

I think this has more to do with wanting to cut down the max camping time from 96 to 48 hours.

Deterring this was exactly the devs' motivation for implementing the spawn variance to begin with:

Q: Can we continue to camp the raid mobs?
A: Certainly. If you want to have fifteen of your guild members sitting at every spawn site (six mobs to be precise) for 96 hours straight anticipating a spawn with the ability to mobilize not only those fifteen people but as well as any other required members to kill your intended target, all within the 30 minute time frame. By all means go ahead. I am sure after a few failed sessions due to not being able to mobilize quick enough, people won`t be willing to sit there for 4 days straight for months on end.

Guess what's happening? :D

people won`t be willing to sit there for 4 days straight for months on end.


It simply brings the boss spawns more in line with "CLASSIC EVERQUEST" than this current system.

Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn`t classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. The spawn variance method we believe will prove to promote both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.

Q: Where can I deposit my tears?
A: As always your tears and crying of favouritism are important to us; for without you we couldn`t possibly run things around there. You are the wind beneath my wings. Please direct your tears to the Petition/Exploit Forum or in more serious cases of hissy fits, Nilbog's Inbox.

Have we shut this down yet?

[Humerox]

Backfire how?

It does not change permacamping or anything of the sort. It simply brings the boss spawns more in line with "CLASSIC EVERQUEST" than this current system.

Basically it's the idea. Most of us seem to have resigned ourselves to the fact that there's not much that can be done about the permacamping within the current ruleset. The only benefit an increased number of spawns will bring is to the guilds willing to camp them.

Pushing for an increase in boss spawns would seem to be fanning the fire, imho.

So while I agree with you technically, I don't think it's a very high priority for the majority of capable guilds because it doesn't benefit them in the slightest. Not unless a change in the variance is combined with a massive overhaul of the current ruleset.

[Supreme]

Basically it's the idea. Most of us seem to have resigned ourselves to the fact that there's not much that can be done about the permacamping within the current ruleset. The only benefit an increased number of spawns will bring is to the guilds willing to camp them.

Pushing for an increase in boss spawns would seem to be fanning the fire, imho.

So while I agree with you technically, I don't think it's a very high priority for the majority of capable guilds because it doesn't benefit them in the slightest. Not unless a change in the variance is combined with a massive overhaul of the current ruleset.

I agree the method of getting these mobs will remain unchanged unless there is a change to the current system over all.

With the spawns being centered around 6 days +/- 24 there will be a chance for more content. It is not to say that the content will be anymore fairly distributed. It is just to say that it will happen more often.

[Humerox]

I agree the method of getting these mobs will remain unchanged unless there is a change to the current system over all.

With the spawns being centered around 6 days +/- 24 there will be a chance for more content. It is not to say that the content will be anymore fairly distributed. It is just to say that it will happen more often.

Maybe if the guildleaders would get together and talk about distribution, this would have some merit. I'm sure there would be more of us behind the idea at that point. The inter-guild relations are non-existent at present. The monthly meetings that were set up a long time ago went by the wayside. I don't see any inter-guild cooperation at the present.

[Nizzarr]

Whats the purpose of this thread again? I'll try to decipher it real quick

1) Thread started by supreme
2) high probability that its full of inane content
3) high probability its about raiding content that supreme never kills anymore
4) bunch of non-factor people arguing about inane bullshit brought up by Supreme.
5) me calling you all out on it.
6) probable end of thread

[Supreme]

Whats the purpose of this thread again? I'll try to decipher it real quick

1) Thread started by supreme
2) high probability that its full of inane content
3) high probability its about raiding content that supreme never kills anymore
4) bunch of non-factor people arguing about inane bullshit brought up by Supreme.
5) me calling you all out on it.
6) probable end of thread

7)Nizzarr posts random rabble that offers nothing constructive to the topic than to get attention and try to be clever.


/Golfglap for Nizzarr everyone!

[Messianic]

Im posting here because I want to make the thread go longer to prove Nizzarr wrong.

[mmiles8]

2) high probability ...
3) high probability ...
6) probable ...

Ima school you all on proper statistics yet.

As you can see from my latest spreadsheet, there's an inverse relationship between the ratio of your perceived value of your opinion to your opinion's actual importance.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/mmiles01/arrogance.jpg

I've graphed the data in both linear and logarithmic scales, to edify the implications.

What does this mean for the average forumgoer? Well, statistically speaking, the bigger of an asshat you are, the greater the probability you look like a fool. It's an exponential trend, folks. I'm just sayin.

[Supreme]

What does this mean for the average forumgoer? Well, statistically speaking, the bigger of an asshat you are, the greater the probability you look like a fool. It's an exponential trend, folks. I'm just sayin.

Can i use that?

[Messianic]

Ima school you all on proper statistics yet.

As you can see from my latest spreadsheet, there's an inverse relationship between the ratio of your perceived value of your opinion to your opinion's actual importance.

I've graphed the data in both linear and logarithmic scales, to edify the implications.

What does this mean for the average forumgoer? Well, statistically speaking, the bigger of an asshat you are, the greater the probability you look like a fool. It's an exponential trend, folks. I'm just sayin.

Is someone is still using 2003?? pfft

[mmiles8]

2007 fails. I ran windows 98 until 2005. I still write up my research in notepad. Not a fan of Bloatware.

And yes you can use that.

[Evorix]

A lot of you are mistaken on the current spawn variance... maestro/draco are 3days +/- 12 hours for a total 24 hour window. Gods/dragons are 7days +/- 24 hours for a total of 48 hours window. There are not 48 and 96 hour windows.... they are 24 and 48. The only reason DA/IB (and now WI) camps for days on end is because we get there before the window even begins to hold claim. These guilds are the ones who deserve the kills for the amount of time they spend camping them. You are not going to zone in and be able to kill a god/dragon when you have other guilds putting more effort. A lot of you people are simply tryin to be jackasses saying we have no jobs etc when this is false. We are simply keeping EQ loaded... Its really not that hard.

[Supreme]

A lot of you are mistaken on the current spawn variance... maestro/draco are 3days +/- 12 hours for a total 24 hour window. Gods/dragons are 7days +/- 24 hours for a total of 48 hours window. There are not 48 and 96 hour windows.... they are 24 and 48. The only reason DA/IB (and now WI) camps for days on end is because we get there before the window even begins to hold claim. These guilds are the ones who deserve the kills for the amount of time they spend camping them. You are not going to zone in and be able to kill a god/dragon when you have other guilds putting more effort. A lot of you people are simply tryin to be jackasses saying we have no jobs etc when this is false. We are simply keeping EQ loaded... Its really not that hard.

So it is not -/+ 48 hours its +/- 24 hours from 7 day spawn?

[Evorix]

So it is not -/+ 48 hours its +/- 24 hours from 7 day spawn?

Correct.

[Humerox]

The only reason DA/IB (and now WI) camps for days on end is because we get there before the window even begins to hold claim. These guilds are the ones who deserve the kills for the amount of time they spend camping them. You are not going to zone in and be able to kill a god/dragon when you have other guilds putting more effort.

There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start, lol.

Do you really believe time spent camping = effort? I can tell you this...the devs didn't intend nor expect that...matter of fact they thought it was so insane no one would do it. Same with the rest of us, lol.

So...if you think that's effort and competition, well...I feel sad for ya. Like I said tho...most of us ain't gonna do that, and you can have fun with it.

We can only hope it'll change come Sky.

[Messianic]

2007 fails. I ran windows 98 until 2005. I still write up my research in notepad. Not a fan of Bloatware.

And yes you can use that.

Lol, we still use 2003 for data imports/SQL operations at the major research University at which I work...I agree, 2007 is so weird. They made it more posh than useful...

My laptop still runs XP, although i've heard windows 7 isn't terribly bad, it's just the security features that are annoying.

[Messianic]

There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start, lol.

Do you really believe time spent camping = effort? I can tell you this...the devs didn't intend nor expect that...matter of fact they thought it was so insane no one would do it. Same with the rest of us, lol.

So...if you think that's effort and competition, well...I feel sad for ya. Like I said tho...most of us ain't gonna do that, and you can have fun with it.

We can only hope it'll change come Sky.

What, exactly, is effort in an MMO other than time spent to achieve a set goal?

[Evorix]

What, exactly, is effort in an MMO other than time spent to achieve a set goal?

Couldn't have said it better than myself. We put in the time to camp the mobs to earn the kill over other guilds that do not put in the time. Simple as that.

So...if you think that's effort and competition, well...I feel sad for ya. Like I said tho...most of us ain't gonna do that, and you can have fun with it.

That is your opinion... is why you aren't killing the named bosses and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Humerox]

What, exactly, is effort in an MMO other than time spent to achieve a set goal?

Yah OK, bro. Your logic is irrefutable. :eek:

I'm not gonna go off on a side argument when we all know camping for days on end was never intended, and it's not in the spirit of the game.

I'd much rather see the trains and FFA, or the calendar rotations that were "classic" EQ if ya wanna go in that direction. I don't remember a server one where guilds camped boss spawns as a norm, and got away with it for long.

[fastboy21]

the frustration over boss spawns and camping and sitting (aka "effort") at a spawn is what classic EQ was all about. If you've decided you want to be an uber raider in classic EQ that is what you are signing up for.

there just isn't a lot of raid content in classic. the raid content that exists is mostly boring, easy (with a few exceptions), and generally unrewarding imo as gamer. Kunark and Velious fix this in my opinion.

despite my actual sarcasm in my previous posts I don't entirely disagree with Supreme. I think his mechanism to change it is wrong, but his bottom line is that he just wants more spawns (to be in line with the number of spawns in classic). He is correct about the number here being lower than it was on live.

The solution should be to find a way to spawn mobs on scheduled server restarts. I realize that the devs have said this is very difficult to do in previous threads without creating a way to exploit it through intentional zone crashes. With the limited number of major bosses in classic I would suggest that the devs just manually pop the hand full of bosses on server up. I don't know if that is easy, hard, or impossible. I trust the devs have thought about it.

Mobs spawning on server up was a MAJOR part of raiding in classic EQ. It meant that number 2 and 3 guilds were going to be guaranteed a shot at some content because the number 1 guild can't be everywhere at once. It may have been a "flaw" that the original live devs didn't intentionally put into the game, but you can't recreate the real feel of classic competition without it.

[astarothel]

got away with it for long.

LOL. Like Sony would have stopped it. There's nothing to 'get away with' related to it.

[Humerox]

LOL. Like Sony would have stopped it. There's nothing to 'get away with' related to it.

Actually, they did. On some servers there was forced rotation. On others, nothing was said about training and FFA. On still others, the player guilds came up with calendars.

Not only that, entire guilds moved to different servers in order to be able to do content, if the other solutions didn't work for them. We don't have that luxury.

Get away with it was in reference to the playerbase allowing it. Problem is, we kind of boxed ourselves in with the ruleset, simply by thinking camping for days on end was too far-fetched to even consider. We being the original guilds that came up with what we thought was going to be a fair resolution to the same essential problem.

Point is, there was not one server that had guilds permacamping the boss spawns, that was not addressed in one fashion or the other.

When you see the posts coming from people that think they won't get their piece of the end-game action, and basing their decision on whether or not to even play here, it's worrisome.

This is what I meant about rocking the boat, because asking for increased spawns when it only rewards 2 or maybe 3 guilds is ludicrous. Especially when there's 6 or more guilds able to do the content, but not willing to afk a toon until they get a call that a boss has spawned.

And if you say that every toon camping those boss mobs for days has an awake and at-the-keyboard person attending it...I don't have any qualms about saying it isn't true. I won't argue this point either, because we all know it's being done.

The best days here were when we watched IB and Tranny mobilizing for mobs. Div was starting to get shots too, and when the current ruleset was formulated, it was formulated as an inter-guild effort; its entire intent and purpose was to ensure fairness not only for the guilds involved, but for future guilds as they became able to raid and participate.

What's here now is ridiculous.

[Chicka]

This is what I meant about rocking the boat, because asking for increased spawns when it only rewards 2 or maybe 3 guilds is ludicrous.

He's asking for the classic experience, no more, no less. Who it benefits is irrelevant.

Personally, I never played on a server where GM's enforced rules other than play nice and FTE (first to engage). AFAIK GM's were not supposed to enforce any other rules - whether player sanctioned or not. I'm pretty sure any GM trying to enforce a 15 people in zone to claim mob "A" rule, that essentially forced the top guilds to camp instead of race, thereby not playing the game and likely burn out and leave, would have been persuaded otherwise by the powers that be.

The fact is that at no time in the first three expansions was there enough uber loot to feed every person who happened to ding the top level. Rotation doesn't solve that, it just makes it so that those who do put in the effort to be first and to kill cleanly are not rewarded by being equipped to take on the newer content.

The biggest blow mind to me is not that the guilds are camping (someone is going to start it) but that:

a) on a "classic" server such a non-classic thing as variance was actually coded and then a non-classic rule is enforced to bork it to high hell
b) it hasn't been changed back now it is quite clearly a dumb idea

[Starklen]

I will make this response as simple as i can.

It is not about probability. It is about 16 spawns in a 30 day cycle being the MINIMUM number of boss mobs that spawn instead of 12. The current system has 16 boss mobs as the MEDIAN of 12 (lowest number) and 20 (highest number).Which is much more in line with classic than the current system.

I'm not sure if you misspoke, but the median is the middle value, not the lowest.

A lot of you are mistaken on the current spawn variance... maestro/draco are 3days +/- 12 hours for a total 24 hour window. Gods/dragons are 7days +/- 24 hours for a total of 48 hours window. There are not 48 and 96 hour windows.... they are 24 and 48. The only reason DA/IB (and now WI) camps for days on end is because we get there before the window even begins to hold claim. These guilds are the ones who deserve the kills for the amount of time they spend camping them. You are not going to zone in and be able to kill a god/dragon when you have other guilds putting more effort. A lot of you people are simply tryin to be jackasses saying we have no jobs etc when this is false. We are simply keeping EQ loaded... Its really not that hard.

The 3 day bosses are on +- 24 hours and the 7 day bosses are on +- 48 hours. For example, the window for a boss like draco opens exactly 2 days after you kill him. This is also a matter of public record in the guild discussion forum.

[Humerox]

Personally, I never played on a server where GM's enforced rules other than play nice and FTE (first to engage). AFAIK GM's were not supposed to enforce any other rules - whether player sanctioned or not.


This would be fine by me. At least it would break the monotony. FTE is about as fair as it gets.
I wouldn't mind at all spawns going back to the original timers and rate brought more in line with classic, IF this utterly insane camping wasn't involved.


Like I said...we didn't see it as a potential problem. We were wrong.

[Frankee]

One of the things i loved about a pvp server is that no one ever complained about camps or anything.

People would champ check when the zoned in, 95% of the time people played nice because getting killed and being messed with was an option. Very rare was there an instance where you would have a players even contest a camp but when that did happen, you fought for it, end of story.

If possible, i say flag raid zones as PVP arenas ;)

[Evorix]

The 3 day bosses are on +- 24 hours and the 7 day bosses are on +- 48 hours. For example, the window for a boss like draco opens exactly 2 days after you kill him. This is also a matter of public record in the guild discussion forum.

Think what you would like... If you have ever seen a boss spawn out of the 24/48 windows that i proclaim, then please share. My experience is that they have not. I'm not sure if this is intended or not.

[Skope]

Backfire how?

It does not change permacamping or anything of the sort. It simply brings the boss spawns more in line with "CLASSIC EVERQUEST" than this current system.

The problem is this poopsocking for 5 days for a target -- even splitting a raid force in two to hold two targets -- isn't classic either. Shortening the spawn variance simply makes the aforementioned 24 hours easier. Does it solve that problem? No, it doesn't. Not it any way shape or form. Would I like to see patch-day respawns? Absolutely! I know the GMs have stated they wanted to steer away from that, but if it were done at various intervals, say 3am one night then 4pm the next patch, it would spread things out for people in various time zones. There's also the issue of purposeful zone crashing, but really that's happened with the rules we have now, so I really don't see how it could possibly be getting any worse nor how it would affect the spawns, but ultimately that's a separate argument and somewhat of a digression.

Just to clarify, camping one of the big 4 with 20 people isn't "effort," it's the exact opposite. It's laziness as a tactic and right now it's being applauded and is the ONLY way to kill one of the big four. It's a seriously disgusting tactic that needs to go. Don't be delusional, there is no excuse for what's become of the raiding scene at the moment. But this proposal won't fix that, nor does it truly add what patch-day respawns did for live. I'm not trying to be bitter, but there have been better thought-out proposals that have been swept under the rug because a few people nitpick at the smallest details and avoid the giant elephant in the room.

[mmiles8]

Ok, since there seems to be some question as to how this was handled in live, here's the policy taken straight out of my old guide handbook. IMO, our Devs should consider using the option highlighted in RED:


8.2.1.2 Examples of Major Disruption:
Zone/Area Disruption – monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area rather than stealing from a specific player or group of players.

8.2.3 Contested Spawn Complaints

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated according to the procedures of section 8.2.2 to determine if harassment or Zone/Area disruption is occurring. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

If another complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1. Any party refusing to abide by the compromise established by the CS Representative should be issued a warning for disruption.

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

8.2.3.1 The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise.
8.2.3.1

The rule was that camps were ok as long as all players agreed to abide by the 'camping' system. If someone wanted to show up and buck the system, camps weren't officially recognized.

If permacamping had happened on live, I can tell you exactly what would have happened. The Devs had as much of a sense of humor and distaste for douchebags there as here, especially when it was Verant running the show. /becomenpc is a targettable command. It had the handy feature of allowing you to take the shape of an NPC model and be killed by players. Use your imagination.

[Humerox]

The problem is this poopsocking for 5 days for a target -- even splitting a raid force in two to hold two targets -- isn't classic either. Shortening the spawn variance simply makes the aforementioned 24 hours easier. Does it solve that problem? No, it doesn't. Not it any way shape or form. Would I like to see patch-day respawns? Absolutely! I know the GMs have stated they wanted to steer away from that, but if it were done at various intervals, say 3am one night then 4pm the next patch, it would spread things out for people in various time zones. There's also the issue of purposeful zone crashing, but really that's happened with the rules we have now, so I really don't see how it could possibly be getting any worse nor how it would affect the spawns, but ultimately that's a separate argument and somewhat of a digression.

Just to clarify, camping one of the big 4 with 20 people isn't "effort," it's the exact opposite. It's laziness as a tactic and right now it's being applauded and is the ONLY way to kill one of the big four. It's a seriously disgusting tactic that needs to go. Don't be delusional, there is no excuse for what's become of the raiding scene at the moment. But this proposal won't fix that, nor does it truly add what patch-day respawns did for live. I'm not trying to be bitter, but there have been better thought-out proposals that have been swept under the rug because a few people nitpick at the smallest details and avoid the giant elephant in the room.

Well said, Skope! :)

[astarothel]

Just to clarify, camping one of the big 4 with 20 people isn't "effort," it's the exact opposite.

Effort reflected by time involved in a straight rotation = 0
Effort reflected by time involved in poopsock camping > 0

[Humerox]

Effort involved in FTE = +1

[Uaellaen]

you guys are all insane ... do you realise, this is a game and made for enjoyment? not for work and camping mobs for 90 hours? in my opinion you are all egoistic people that should reconsider why they are even here ...

[Supreme]

I'm not sure if you misspoke, but the median is the middle value, not the lowest.

16 is the median number. If it was the mean it would be the average. Both could be used interchangeable.

When i reference 16 as the lowest it is by dropping the latter 48 hours.

However this is all IRRELEVANT as Evorix pointed out it is a 7 day spawn with a +/- 24 hour (or 48 hour random spawn) window.

[Uaellaen]

However this is all IRRELEVANT as Evorix pointed out it is a 7 day spawn with a +/- 24 hour (or 48 hour random spawn) window.

he obviously can not read ...

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2670&highlight=spawn+variance

Spawn Variance

A variance of +/- 48 hours will be added to the following: Lord Nagafen, Lady Vox, Cazic-Thule, Innoruuk.
A variance of +/- 24 hours will be added to the following: Dracoliche, Maestro of Rancor.
*Phinigel will remain a static 12 hour spawn.

[Supreme]

I thought so as well...perhaps the Devs/GMs will offer some clarification?

[Uaellaen]

i dont see what you need more then the official post of nilbog who is leading this project ...

[Evorix]

he obviously can not read ...

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2670&highlight=spawn+variance

perhaps you dont kill raid bosses and have no experience in the matter... yes the thread says that and i have even asked a gm about it. but the point is ever since ive been raiding no mob has been outside the 24hr and 48hr windows. is this intended? no idea

[Supreme]

Q: Can we continue to camp the raid mobs?
A: Certainly. If you want to have fifteen of your guild members sitting at every spawn site (six mobs to be precise) for 96 hours straight anticipating a spawn with the ability to mobilize not only those fifteen people but as well as any other required members to kill your intended target, all within the 30 minute time frame. By all means go ahead. I am sure after a few failed sessions due to not being able to mobilize quick enough, people won`t be willing to sit there for 4 days straight for months on end.


This statement leads me to believe it actually is a 5-9 day spawn and not a 6-8 day spawn.

From this i would really like to see it be a 5-7 day spawn to be more in line with live. It will not stop perma camping but it will offer more content.

[Uaellaen]

perhaps you dont kill raid bosses and have no experience in the matter... yes the thread says that and i have even asked a gm about it. but the point is ever since ive been raiding no mob has been outside the 24hr and 48hr windows. is this intended? no idea

perhaps i dont want to camp for days in the same zone? and how comes i see you guys sitting in zones for up to 4 days then? oh right yeah, getting there in "advance" ... bull...

[Supreme]

perhaps you dont kill raid bosses and have no experience in the matter.

This coming from the guy that posted the misinformation in the first place? I was actually killing these bosses a long time ago. And, as unlikely as you hope it will be, i will be doing it again.

So just shut up until you can offer something constructive.

[Skope]

Effort reflected by time involved in a straight rotation = 0
Effort reflected by time involved in poopsock camping > 0

I'm not vouching for a straight rotation, instead it would certainly be nice if guilds did that whole "tracking" and "mobilization" thing that was so popular before. Hell, even pseudo-rotation combined with tracking, movement and engagement would require more "effort" than what we have now. This whole "Time = Effort" argument you're trying to put forth just doesn't hold water. Leaving your PC on unattended isn't effort, it's a huge flaw in what you seem to perceive as your impervious rule. The fact that you're not conceding that you're wrong is absolutely mind-boggling. You're so obstinate-minded that you seem completely delusional. The only possible reasoning behind your thinking is that perhaps you're gaining from this and would like it to continue or you have no idea what the hell is going on... Either way you're wrong. Find another thread to troll or go back to RnF

[Evorix]

This statement leads me to believe it actually is a 5-9 day spawn and not a 6-8 day spawn.

From this i would really like to see it be a 5-7 day spawn to be more in line with live. It will not stop perma camping but it will offer more content.

I do believe the GMs intended this, but is either not working correctly OR just have an extremely small % to spawn during the very early and extremely late windows. I, along with DA have never seen a boss spawn outside the windows that I stated.

[Uaellaen]

I, along with DA have never seen a boss spawn outside the windows that I stated.

its alright mister bush, yes the iraq does definatly have weapons of mass destruction and it is crucial to invade that country

[Evorix]

I'm not vouching for a straight rotation, instead it would certainly be nice if guilds did that whole "tracking" and "mobilization" thing that was so popular before. Hell, even pseudo-rotation combined with tracking, movement and engagement would require more "effort" than what we have now. This whole "Time = Effort" argument you're trying to put forth just doesn't hold water. Leaving your PC on unattended isn't effort, it's a huge flaw in what you seem to perceive as your impervious rule. The fact that you're not conceding that you're wrong is absolutely mind-boggling. You're so obstinate-minded that you seem completely delusional. The only possible reasoning behind your thinking is that perhaps you're gaining from this and would like it to continue or you have no idea what the hell is going on... Either way you're wrong. Find another thread to troll or go back to RnF

The tracking + mobilizing is when IB had everything locked down. With 3+ guilds wanting to have the advantage of killing a boss, this will never work. Unless something is enforced, every guild wants to take advantage of getting a raid force in the zone before the boss spawns.

[Supreme]

I'm not vouching for a straight rotation, instead it would certainly be nice if guilds did that whole "tracking" and "mobilization" thing that was so popular before. Hell, even pseudo-rotation combined with tracking, movement and engagement would require more "effort" than what we have now. This whole "Time = Effort" argument you're trying to put forth just doesn't hold water. Leaving your PC on unattended isn't effort, it's a huge flaw in what you seem to perceive as your impervious rule. The fact that you're not conceding that you're wrong is absolutely mind-boggling. You're so obstinate-minded that you seem completely delusional. The only possible reasoning behind your thinking is that perhaps you're gaining from this and would like it to continue or you have no idea what the hell is going on... Either way you're wrong. Find another thread to troll or go back to RnF

I would love to see a 2 hour window of opportunity boss raid for guilds. It would add a whole new dimension to the server. Make it so people would know within a time frame of 6-8 days the boss would spawn. Guilds are given a 2 hour window to kill the spawned boss after those 2 hours the mob is FFA.

/shrug.

[Skope]

The difference is that IB was, at least then, by far better than anybody else. Regardless, there are still better solutions than a FTE, which will get VERY messy and cause a LOT of GM intervention. But sitting here and and complaining about the rules won't get us anywhere, not unless people start fruitful discussion instead of those who are milking this situation for all it's worth are ready to cave in and agree it's screwed up. Right now, Evorix, that hasn't yet happened.

Supreme, something like that was introduced and eventually swamped by idiots and trolls. It is a good idea, the only things that would require tweaking on a system like that would be the timers.

[Supreme]

The difference is that IB was, at least then, by far better than anybody else. Regardless, there are still better solutions than a FTE, which will get VERY messy and cause a LOT of GM intervention. But sitting here and and complaining about the rules won't get us anywhere, not unless people start fruitful discussion instead of those who are milking this situation for all it's worth are ready to cave in and agree it's screwed up. Right now, Evorix, that hasn't yet happened.

Supreme, something like that was introduced and eventually swamped by idiots and trolls. It is a good idea, the only things that would require tweaking on a system like that would be the timers.

Or we could go in the OPPOSITE extreme.

Increase the variance to be +/- 240 hours. So it could spawn anytime within a 20 day period.

That should effectively kill poopsocking (and raiding).

[Supreme]

actually lets do it more reasonable. Put the spawn timer to be +/-168 hours so it spawns on a 14 day cycle.

That means anything could really spawn at any time. Right now it is too easy to Camp CT for 4 days then move to Innoruuk without the timers overlapping.

That is how you kill POOPSOCKING.

[astarothel]

I'm not vouching for a straight rotation, instead it would certainly be nice if guilds did that whole "tracking" and "mobilization" thing that was so popular before. Hell, even pseudo-rotation combined with tracking, movement and engagement would require more "effort" than what we have now. This whole "Time = Effort" argument you're trying to put forth just doesn't hold water. Leaving your PC on unattended isn't effort, it's a huge flaw in what you seem to perceive as your impervious rule. The fact that you're not conceding that you're wrong is absolutely mind-boggling. You're so obstinate-minded that you seem completely delusional. The only possible reasoning behind your thinking is that perhaps you're gaining from this and would like it to continue or you have no idea what the hell is going on... Either way you're wrong. Find another thread to troll or go back to RnF

If you think I am advocating afk camping, maybe you should take a look around the forums again.
I even proposed a system much like you described over a month ago before the poopsocking reached critical mass.

http://www.mercwear.com/blog_root/images/johhny_cash.jpg

[Nizzarr]

jesus H fucking christ LOL. Supreme, you're fucking high. LET IT BE 20 DAYS VARIANCE! k?

Variance is exactly 2.5 days to 3.5 days for 3 days spawns and 6 to 8 days for 7 days spawns. There's no IF here. It is what it is!

[Chicka]

actually lets do it more reasonable. Put the spawn timer to be +/-168 hours so it spawns on a 14 day cycle.

That means anything could really spawn at any time. Right now it is too easy to Camp CT for 4 days then move to Innoruuk without the timers overlapping.

That is how you kill POOPSOCKING.

LOL. No, you don't kill poopsocking by tweeking the dumb system that made it happen. You kill poopsocking by taking away the rule that makes it viable - 15 people holds claim to a boss mob. Variance, ok if you must, variance + 15 people rule = dumbest eq raid scene evar. At this point, variance doesn't really add much except to ensure that nobody knows when the mob spawns (pointless in light of current tactics.)

I can assure you that nobody whose toon is locked up in these endless camps would miss poopsocking. Sadly the player base is not empowered to change things because 15 people in a zone holding the rights to the boss IS THE ONLY GM ENFORCED RULE regarding raid targets.

[mmiles8]

In case this got lost in all of the
'lol no u'
'no U'
'NO U!!!'

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=102406&postcount=60

Summary: Perma camping a mob was considered zone disruption, camping was not recognized by gms.

[Humerox]

I'm glad to see most of us agree that we need to do something about the poopsocking.

I don't care what the alternative is, as long as it reintroduces competition. If IB or DA - or even WI now - win all the mobs competitively...more power to them.

[astarothel]

I can assure you that nobody whose toon is locked up in these endless camps would miss poopsocking.

Poor argument. You can't claim to know what another person would feel, think or like to do. Furthermore if this was the case that 100% of all players wanted to do away with permacamping, you would already have seen the pendulum swing back toward tracking and mobilization.

Oh, and it's not the ONLY rule enforced by the GMs regarding raid targets. There's plenty of others, especially regarding the calling of timers in particular. This is on top of the usual server rules which consistently get put under strain and come under scrutiny by the raiding community.

[Troy]

I still don't see how having all 4 bosses spawn at the exact same time as each other wouldn't fix a lot of this.

[Chicka]

Poor argument. You can't claim to know what another person would feel, think or like to do. Furthermore if this was the case that 100% of all players wanted to do away with permacamping, you would already have seen the pendulum swing back toward tracking and mobilization.

You fail to understand that there might be a motivation for killing bosses, and that motivation does not go away simply because there is a dumb rule in place that you either follow, or you don't kill the boss.

I do know that without the rule, the camps would end.

[astarothel]

I do know that without the rule, the camps would end.

No, no you don't.

First to engage would still see it happening, just maybe not to the extent it is now. Why? Because FTE still rewards the behaviour because of the edge it provides by being able to tackle it first.

The only way to end camping is to have it hold little to no advantage at all in a claiming process.

[Chicka]

I still don't see how having all 4 bosses spawn at the exact same time as each other wouldn't fix a lot of this.

Troy, it would. It's also non-classic. The only time that happened was at server restart - and I'm fine with simulating that because we get less spawns than on any classic server. But as par for the course its BS.

If I wanted to play on something that messed with classic EQ rules Id go play on one of the other servers. That isn't supposed to be why we are here.

[Chicka]

No, no you don't.

First to engage would still see it happening, just maybe not to the extent it is now. Why? Because FTE still rewards the behaviour because of the edge it provides by being able to tackle it first.

The only way to end camping is to have it hold little to no advantage at all in a claiming process.

The only "claim" about FTE is that you did indeed FTE. If some guild wants to camp on that basis WITHOUT variance - watch them get steamrollered by the better guild.

That is my point, we have rule upon rule where none was needed. Vanilla EQ worked, it rewarded those who could engage first AND kill the mob with what they engaged it with or could get there in time.

We have these non-classic rules because (as has been said numerous times) the GMs don't really want to be bothered with it. Yet intentional trainers get wrist slaps, not bans, and guilds not following the claim rules get another guilds loot destroyed (gee must hurt to steal a boss mob while your training the guild with claim, and the penalty is the loot gets destroyed.)

If you are going to be soft on the hard ballers, expect to spend time dealing with their BS again, and again, and again. Adding dumb rules for everyone else to follow won't fix that.

Personally, if I were a GM, I would far rather turn up to a known spawn time for a mob ready to perma-ban the bad guys, than the current situation where it is basically 24/7 something could be up.

[Supreme]

jesus H fucking christ LOL. Supreme, you're fucking high. LET IT BE 20 DAYS VARIANCE! k?

Variance is exactly 2.5 days to 3.5 days for 3 days spawns and 6 to 8 days for 7 days spawns. There's no IF here. It is what it is!

Nizzar you must have batshit for brains.


Nilbogs post states that a boss mob has a 4 day window of spawning thus a +/- 48 hour from 7 day. It is 5-9 days not 6-8.

Read the fucking post or just stfu and stop shit staining my thread.

[Humerox]

We have these non-classic rules because (as has been said numerous times) the GMs don't really want to be bothered with it.

We have these rules because guilds got together and made them, and they were necessary at the time because of all the QQ that went on. Go back to the old threads and take a peek. Wasn't pretty.

The rules need to be changed again. They don't work. There's only two real options to change the rules. Get everyone together and make new ones -

OR

ignore the rules en masse. Which would take inter-guild cooperation to do, and isn't as easy as tabling current concerns.

[Evorix]

Nizzar you must have batshit for brains.


Nilbogs post states that a boss mob has a 4 day window of spawning thus a +/- 48 hour from 7 day. It is 5-9 days not 6-8.

Read the fucking post or just stfu and stop shit staining my thread.

The post is wrong. I know for a fact that it is not +/- 48hours.

[Supreme]

Spawn Variance

A variance of +/- 48 hours will be added to the following: Lord Nagafen, Lady Vox, Cazic-Thule, Innoruuk.


Q: Can we continue to camp the raid mobs?
A: Certainly. If you want to have fifteen of your guild members sitting at every spawn site (six mobs to be precise) for 96 hours straight anticipating a spawn with the ability to mobilize not only those fifteen people but as well as any other required members to kill your intended target, all within the 30 minute time frame. By all means go ahead. I am sure after a few failed sessions due to not being able to mobilize quick enough, people won`t be willing to sit there for 4 days straight for months on end.


This is coming from Nilibog in his post "Raid Rules".

I am not sure where you are coming up with 6-8 day spawn but it is clear that it is a 96 hour window and not a 48 hour window. Thus making it a 5-9 day spawn cycle for boss mobs.

That means that we see 12-20 boss mobs in a 30 day cycle based on 7 day spawn that was standard on live. We should be seeing 16-20 instead. This i am pushing for a 5-7 day rotation to increase the spawns.

You may know for a fact but the people that designed the system are saying otherwise.

[Valent]

How many people have to tell you that THE SPAWN VARIANCE IS +/- 12 hours for Mestro and Draco and +/- 24 hours for Vox, Naggy, CT and Inny. You know how many hours we have put into camping these mobs to figure out the spawn mechanics? Way to many to count.

So you got your wish in your original post and you didn't even know it. Thread over

[Virtuosos]

i say no once a week timer thingy....soon as you kill a boss, he has a chance to pop 5minutes later ~ a week later.


BAM!

[Virtuosos]

did....did i win? :D

[G13]

its alright mister bush, yes the iraq does definatly have weapons of mass destruction and it is crucial to invade that country

You're making yourself look completely retarded in this thread

[Uaellaen]

You're making yourself look completely retarded in this thread

do i? i think my analogy may have been too complex for you then ...

just like the people that do not get that the spawn variance is + - 24 hours for draco / maestro and + - 48 for the other 4 bosses ...

i dont see where you take the confidence to deny this since it is clearly stated in the raid rules ... OH YES RIGHT!!! you are smarter then the people that actualy coded it, so you know it better!

[G13]

do i? i think my analogy may have been too complex for you then ...

just like the people that do not get that the spawn variance is + - 24 hours for draco / maestro and + - 48 for the other 4 bosses ...

i dont see where you take the confidence to deny this since it is clearly stated in the raid rules ... OH YES RIGHT!!! you are smarter then the people that actualy coded it, so you know it better!

Have you ever attempted to lead your irrelevant guild to kill any raid mobs on this server?

Have you ever attempted to actually camp a mob here?

Answer = No

Keep farming your planar trash bro and then expecting a hand out.

[Otto]

We have these rules because guilds got together and made them, and they were necessary at the time because of all the QQ that went on.

Actually the guilds came up with the rules because the GMs forced their own rules upon the player base, so rather deal with the absolutely ridiculous rules they made, we tried to make some of our own.

Turns out these rules are equally as ridiculous. Guess that just goes to show that rules about raiding are incredibly non-classic.

[Uaellaen]

Of course not, because we dont care :)

We killed maestro and draco already, without camping ... without taking a day off work, without neglecting our family ... and guess what .. we had FUN doing so!

Oh and have you done anything on this server mister irrelevant troll? I am getting so fed up with you completly retarded, IQ lacking people that spew claims that are not true just to justify theyr actions ... (check back on the first quote you made in this thread)

i have camped mobs yeah, but no raid targets ... NEVER not even on live did we camp targets EVER ... we always mobilized if they poped ... but i guess that is too hard for you to even consider ...

[Supreme]

How many people have to tell you that THE SPAWN VARIANCE IS +/- 12 hours for Mestro and Draco and +/- 24 hours for Vox, Naggy, CT and Inny. You know how many hours we have put into camping these mobs to figure out the spawn mechanics? Way to many to count.

So you got your wish in your original post and you didn't even know it. Thread over


Since the people that actually WROTE THE SCRIPT differ from what you are saying i am going to have to go and disagree with you.

[Supreme]

Actually the guilds came up with the rules because the GMs forced their own rules upon the player base, so rather deal with the absolutely ridiculous rules they made, we tried to make some of our own.

Turns out these rules are equally as ridiculous. Guess that just goes to show that rules about raiding are incredibly non-classic.

I agree a FFA system is better than this current garbage....something i had argued when the moron (Nizzarr) proposed a spawn variance to start with.

[Chicka]

Of course not, because we dont care :)

We killed maestro and draco already, without camping ... without taking a day off work, without neglecting our family ... and guess what .. we had FUN doing so!

I'm glad you had fun, that's what games are supposed to be. You probably got draco because you turned up when two guilds were already in fear, and the one that had claim to draco failed to kill it in time (you may even have had a little IB help there huh?). Maestro you probably got because the other guilds don't need to kill him anymore - that's quite normal, when the top guilds move on the raid targets open up.

i have camped mobs yeah, but no raid targets ... NEVER not even on live did we camp targets EVER ... we always mobilized if they poped ... but i guess that is too hard for you to even consider ...

Yes, that's my experience on live too. But on no classic server was there any 15 person rule either, or variance, or any of that crap. Nor do I believe such a thing would be upheld if it were - it's bloody sadistic, and clearly not designed to keep people paying subs. I guess here they don't need to worry about that - but it does make me /boggle that they think it's cool to let it continue.

I think it is a shame that these rules exist not only for the top guilds but also every other guild who might want to try. Right now, there is pretty much close to zero chance of other guilds getting a shot at vox/naggy/CT/Inny, or draco in fact. FTE allows them to at least try, and sometimes they win, 15 people in zone + variance gets you a bunch of planes capable guilds who are just not prepared to go there.

Forget PUG raids, not going to happen until variance and 15 people rules are rescinded - that is also a great shame, because that is traditionally how folk got to experience the content when they would otherwise never have a hope to.

[Uaellaen]

(you may even have had a little IB help there huh?)

get your facts straight before you spew anything, we did not have "help" or need "help".... we simply decided we dont have to be asses and can SHARE a mob ... we had plenty enought people there to kill 2 dracos at once ... we shared the loot equaly even thou by the rules we could have just sayd "Oh IB dropped to 13 for 17 seconds, QUICK lets claim the mob and SHOW them whos cooler!!!" like you guys do ... but meh ... its uncool realy... we had fun, IB had fun ... so what the hell .. again its a GAME we are supposed to have FUN not fuck each others over whenever we can ...

I still dont understand why you people think it realy grows your e-penis if you camp targets for 40+ hours here ... where in fact it shrinks it to a size where it isnt even recognized anymore by the bare eye ...

again you should try to have FUN here, this is a G A M E ... look i help you out ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game <=== a game ... MIRACLE WORK!

[Supreme]

I think it is a shame that these rules exist not only for the top guilds but also every other guild who might want to try. Right now, there is pretty much close to zero chance of other guilds getting a shot at vox/naggy/CT/Inny, or draco in fact. FTE allows them to at least try, and sometimes they win, 15 people in zone + variance gets you a bunch of planes capable guilds who are just not prepared to go there.

Well unless the guild is willing to permacamp the spawn from the time it dies till the time it respawns they wont see it...but it is rapidly heading into the direction of permacamping being the norm.

[Chicka]

get your facts straight before you spew anything, we did not have "help" or need "help".... we simply decided we dont have to be asses and can SHARE a mob ... we had plenty enought people there to kill 2 dracos at once ... we shared the loot equaly even thou by the rules we could have just sayd "Oh IB dropped to 13 for 17 seconds, QUICK lets claim the mob and SHOW them whos cooler!!!

Actually your memory is faulty, you didn't have enough to make claim in zone and we did actually beat you to the magic number, but we had already agreed to team up for the mob. We weren't even camping it - I had to port in for that fight.

But thanks for your vitriol spewage while ignoring the substance of my post, I now know not to bother with ya.

[Chicka]

Well unless the guild is willing to permacamp the spawn from the time it dies till the time it respawns they wont see it...but it is rapidly heading into the direction of permacamping being the norm.

If the rule is FTE and there is no variance, be my guest, camp away. It won't last because there is zero benefit to camping a mob when you can turn up 30 mins before the spawn and be on the same playing field as anyone whose been there 4 days.

[Uaellaen]

Actually your memory is faulty, you didn't have enough to make claim in zone and we did actually beat you to the magic number, but we had already agreed to team up for the mob. We weren't even camping it - I had to port in for that fight.

But thanks for your vitriol spewage while ignoring the substance of my post, I now know not to bother with ya.

are you fucking retarded??

here are the attendes for the dracoliche raid, you are right, its not 15 ... its 30 ...
Ablazze
Aenro
Aleja
Alisa
Apio
Bristleborne
Cantaa
Dagarn
Daymar
Ethalon
Gorroth
Illtair
Imorthan
Iquan
Kadu
Kyleon
Narielle
Nedala
Omnimorph
Poeskas
Rael
Rellika
Rumzuck
Seba
Sericx
Swishahouse
Tandpetarn
Tinino
Uuaellaen
Zantor


we didnt call a timer or anything because we do not want to play with you for the same mobs ... we dont want to be constantly trained just for a shitty piece of loot ... so yeah we would have given you the mob so we can have fun in peace

[Chicka]

are you fucking retarded??

No. I also know the difference between a final raid attendance and getting the first 15. I also see the irony of your questioning my e-manhood based on camping in a thread where I have made several posts saying its stupid and the old ways were better.

I'm also not an e-rager. Now those guys really do have small e-penises.

[Uaellaen]

i give up ... your mind is to simple to understand the concept of fun ... go get back to your imaginary world where camping mobs is cool

[Chicka]

i give up

I win EQ

[Valent]

You guys have gone full retard. The spawn variance is 24 hours +/- for the major mobs. How many people from DA and IB have to tell you this before you get it?

[Uaellaen]

You guys have gone full retard. The spawn variance is 24 hours +/- for the major mobs. How many people from DA and IB have to tell you this before you get it?

can you READ ??? Nilbog clearly states in his post that the spawn variance is + - 48 hours and that the spawn window is 4 DAYS!!!!!! how many times does someone have to link you the source of the people that RUN THIS SERVER ???

seriously, the idiocy on this thread is unbelievable

[Starklen]

Think what you would like... If you have ever seen a boss spawn out of the 24/48 windows that i proclaim, then please share. My experience is that they have not. I'm not sure if this is intended or not.

I've killed more than one boss in the past 2 weeks that spawned on what is technically day 1 of the 96 hour window.

[Valent]

Every guild member from IB and DA know the spawn variance is 24 hours. Do you understand that?

[Chicka]

Every guild member from IB and DA know the spawn variance is 24 hours. Do you understand that?

Please don't speak for IB.

BTW, Starklen is IB.

[Starklen]

Every guild member from IB and DA know the spawn variance is 24 hours. Do you understand that?

I'm in IB and we have had a boss in the past 2 weeks spawn in the first 24 hours of the "alleged" 96 hour window.

EDIT: I'm not speaking to whether or not the probability of the happening is correct.

[Valent]

Ok, maybe IB members do not know the variance mechanics yet. I have a feeling thier leadership does by the way they pressure us during the variance and how they time thier PoF and PoH clears.

[Uaellaen]

Ok, maybe IB members do not know the variance mechanics yet. I have a feeling thier leadership does by the way they pressure us during the variance and how they time thier PoF and PoH clears.

maybe you can just accept that you are wrong ..

[Valent]

We have tested it hundreds of times. You have have tested it 0 times.

[Uaellaen]

We have tested it hundreds of times. You have have tested it 0 times.

you have tested it? how did you test it? how did you spawn hundrets of boss mobs without loot?

[Valent]

We show up before the variance starts. Once the variance is with in 48 hours the god/dragon we are camping then spawns.

Thats how you test it.

[Evorix]

you have tested it? how did you test it? how did you spawn hundrets of boss mobs without loot?

You don't seem to want to understand. We have camped every boss MANY MANY MANY times and it has never spawned outside of a 24 and 48 hr window. What do you not get? You are not even taking our claim into consideration. Based on all the experience we have with camping mobs, I think you should. But then again you dont give a shit so why are you even responding. It may be intended that the 48/96 hr should be in effect, but if so then they are currently bugged.

[Valent]

At first we were under the impression that Nilbog did code 96 and 48 hour spawn variance. Months of camping later we realized he either coded it wrong/had a typo in his post. Well not months later (we are not retards) but a few spawn cycles later we started to think maybe Nilbogs post is wrong and now months later we know 100% for sure his post is wrong.

[Starklen]

Ok, maybe IB members do not know the variance mechanics yet. I have a feeling thier leadership does by the way they pressure us during the variance and how they time thier PoF and PoH clears.

I'm telling you I witnessed an event that is contrary to whatever your shitty opinion is and you are basically telling me it never happened.

[Uaellaen]

no you dont seem to be ABLE to understand ... the spwan variance is how its stated in nilbogs post .. have you ever heared of the word RANDOM? and that its like .. totaly random?

You are not even taking our claim into consideration.

correct, i do not because the variance was looked at by defs and fixed, and looked at again ... so your claim is purely BS ...

[Uaellaen]

i wish you kids would realise you dont know everything, but rather nothing ...

[Evorix]

I'm done with this post, think what you would like. You opinion is nothing to me. I would suggest a GM taking another look at the coding as a RANDOM variance would have a spawn outside of the 24/48 window in a couple months time.

[Valent]

Starklen, I am not telling you that you are wrong since I was not there. Are you sure you had a correct death timer from the mobs previous spawn?

[Valent]

Not to mention we track IB kills and we have never seen a mob spawn outside the 48 hour variance for them.

Starklen what mob died outside the window and when. I will check our data.

[Starklen]

Look, I'm telling you I've seen first day spawns. And, while there admittedly have not been many (I'm agreeing with you here that something is wrong with spawn variance), there have been spawns in the first 24 hour period.

EDIT: I don't have records to go back and give you dates and times.

[Cyrius]

The spawn variance for Maestro of Rancor and a Dracoliche is + / - 24 hours, and for Innoruuk, Cazic Thule, Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox it is + / - 48 hours. Now stop the flaming and get back on topic or this wil be locked and moved to rants and flames.

[Valent]

Give me a mob name and date.

[Valent]

.

[Chicka]

I'm done with this post, think what you would like. You opinion is nothing to me. I would suggest a GM taking another look at the coding as a RANDOM variance would have a spawn outside of the 24/48 window in a couple months time.

Really? Random is supposed to be unpredictable - how can you predict such an outcome in such a time frame without introducing a probability that such an event would occur. It definitely isn't definite.

We need more graphs people. More graphs. And math classes.

[Wrei]

What exactly are you guys whining about now? That the variance is not working properly? Seriously? Both guilds have been camping 24/7.... It seems 24 or 48 won't even matter... It seems to me that as long as 1 guild is willing to camp the other will as well. That said I now believe that even if the variance was increased to + or - 30 days that DA would still be camping 24/7. So this whole variance is kinda laughable ;)

[Evorix]

The spawn variance for Maestro of Rancor and a Dracoliche is + / - 24 hours, and for Innoruuk, Cazic Thule, Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox it is + / - 48 hours. Now stop the flaming and get back on topic or this wil be locked and moved to rants and flames.

Im still going to have to slightly disagree. If this is true then the window is not random as it would have spawned outside of these windows within a couple months time period. and has not.

edit in bold

[Starklen]

Hey look a GM decision was made. DA not so retared after all.

You realize he just said something that was exact opposite of what you were claiming right?

[Valent]

Ya I misread his post. I guess we will have to live with the rest of the server not knowing the actual spawn variance.

[Uaellaen]

Ya I misread his post. I guess we will have to live with the rest of the server not knowing the actual spawn variance.

lol ... did you turn 13 yet?

[Chicka]

Getting back on topic.

So yea, I have an ulterior motive for suggesting FTE - I would like to play the game. I'd like to play my main, I'd like to play alts, I'd like to... do stuff.

Could we possibly have a raid scene that included that? Pretty please?

[Valent]

Yes, long time ago

Lets talk about spawn variance

[Uaellaen]

wich proves again that none of you can read ... devs / gms etc. have claimed numerous times that FFA wont happen here ... still you keep asking for it ... devs / gms stated numerous times that spawns on patch wont happen ... yet you still keep asking for it ...

gms / devs stating that the spawn variance is this and this, and yet you claim to know better ...

see a pattern yet?

[Valent]

Would anyone be interested in betting thier account that the next Vox, Naggy, CT, and Inny spawns happen outside of +/- 24 hours?

I am taking any and all bets.

You get 4 chances to be right! Cant beat those odds

I will even throw in 2 Draco's and 2 Maestros at +/- 12 hours. EC tunnel casinos got nothing on these odds.

Senior guides can bet as well.

[Chicka]

drivel

Please stop your frickin non-constructive posts that contradict your opinion of yourself. FTE != FFA, in FFA I train your sorry ass until the zone is mine or I get the KS crew in to snoop the mob, in FTE I attack the mob first, you get the hell out of my way. These things are different.

[Wrei]

wich proves again that none of you can read ... devs / gms etc. have claimed numerous times that FFA wont happen here ... still you keep asking for it ... devs / gms stated numerous times that spawns on patch wont happen ... yet you still keep asking for it ...

gms / devs stating that the spawn variance is this and this, and yet you claim to know better ...

see a pattern yet?

Ok so you're saying that the current system is fixed in stone so why bother asking for changes? From the first raid rules to rotation to camping, there were changes introduced as players demanded to try something else. It's clear that as long as one guild is willing to camp other guilds will do so to compete against them. So now up coming raiding guilds will now have a requirement of sitting 24/7 at a boss spawn to get a shot at them. It'll be awesome to witness 15+ x 5 raiding guild on "each" available raid target 24/7 then told not to camp if you don't like camping. By the time Kunark rolls out we'll see 15+ x 12 raiding guild sitting for trackanon... great plan there too.

Camping or rotation is retarded on limited content when there's going to be several raiding guilds coming in to the scene. We've tried all the other methods why not try FFA first to engage for a few weeks? Theorizing how it'd be the death of the server is nice but seriously I don't think it would be that much worse than the current situation. If GM's told up front they'll ignore the whine petitions for the 2 weeks and let the players "figure it out", you might be surprised at the outcome.

[Valent]

Would anyone be interested in betting thier account that the next Vox, Naggy, CT, and Inny spawns happen outside of +/- 24 hours?

I am taking any and all bets.

You get 4 chances to be right! Cant beat those odds

I will even throw in 2 Draco's and 2 Maestros at +/- 12 hours. EC tunnel casinos got nothing on these odds.

Senior guides can bet as well.

Is no one willing to step up to 8 chances at 50/50 odds???? Someone please take this bet how could you lose!! I am practicaly giving away my account here guys, someone step up to the plate!!

[Chicka]

Dude -+ 48 is the variance, why would we bet against it?

[Valent]

Bleh, you Nilbog, Cyrius, Supreme and Ullalalaaen are right. I fixed my post. Now take my bet.

[Starklen]

Would anyone be interested in betting thier account that the next Vox, Naggy, CT, and Inny spawns happen outside of +/- 48 hours?

I am taking any and all bets.

You get 4 chances to be right! Cant beat those odds

I will even throw in 2 Draco's and 2 Maestros at +/- 12 hours. EC tunnel casinos got nothing on these odds.

Senior guides can bet as well.

You are constantly tripping over yourself and misspeaking about this subject. What the written rules are saying and what Cyrius is saying is that the major boss spawns are 7 days +- 48 hours making for an 96 hour window. It could, therefore, spawn as early as 5 days after a kill and as late as 9. What you are trying to say is that it is 7 days +- 24 hours. What you just offered a bet on is that the variance is longer than both of these supposed 'windows'.

My position has been that while the variance doesn't seem to weight the probability of an early or late spawn equal to a spawn on an interior day, I have witnessed a day 1 spawn.

[Valent]

Would anyone be interested in betting thier account that the next Vox, Naggy, CT, and Inny spawns happen outside of +/- 24 hours?

I am taking any and all bets.

You get 4 chances to be right! Cant beat those odds

I will even throw in 2 Draco's and 2 Maestros at +/- 12 hours. EC tunnel casinos got nothing on these odds.

Senior guides can bet as well.

Best odds in Norrath.

[Chicka]

But it's also pointless. The next 50 spawns could be inside +-24 hrs, but they could also be outside. That's just what happens with probability, its probable, not definite. Betting on it doesn't prove anything.

Now, if you were arguing that the RNG used by the random number generator was flawed such that its distribution was skewed, then that is another matter. If you were arguing that there was insufficient entropy for the seed such that spawns could be predicted, then again that is another matter.

However, gods have not spawned enough on this server to even statistically determine those things - possibly even if we had perfect data.

But lets please let this rest - it's not the point of the thread.

[Valent]

If you are not willing to bet your account, we can lower the ante. I am taking all bets. How can you pass up 8 chances at 50/50 odds?

[Chicka]

If you are not willing to bet your account, we can lower the ante. I am taking all bets. How can you pass up 8 chances at 50/50 odds?

There were words in my post.

[Valent]

How about this:

We can bet 1000pp this week. If just one of those 8 bosses spawn outside of my proposed timers you win. If I happen to win (highly unlikely) we can double or nothing in week 2. If I happen to win again in week 2 (even crazier to think that) then we double or nothing again for week 3 and so on and so on. Basically each and every week you have 8 chances to get all your plat back (if I happen to win, highly unlikely) so its a no lose situation for you!!

How can you pass that up?

[Skope]

And yet again we have a bunch of RnFers spewing their crap in the general forums. How many threads has this been that have attempted to provide a solution only to be swamped by these idiots? Can the GMs just flat-out delete any post that's a clear digression to the original topic, please? It seems more ofthese threads get moved to RnF than really needs to happen, because a pack of morons don't understand how forums work. These people are the reason we can't get things done.


Shortened spawn variance simply won't work, and nor is it really classic. For one, shortening the window only invites more poopsockers to join in on the fun(?), and that's the last thing we need. Secondly, it's not classic either. As I've stated before on other threads, the GMs don't wan't (or have flat-out stated) that patch-day respawns won't happen. Shortening the window on the big 4 or 6 doesn't emulate what patch-day spawns did for classic, either. Patch day spawns added a certain level of spontaneity and opportunity for various guilds to join in on the fun and gave everybody a better shot (think less guilds vying for the same target). Shortening the window does neither, and in fact only contributes to the problem at hand.

The consequences of poopsocking have been an increasing number of core players and oldschoolers quitting, an assembly line designed to funnel new recruits until they too get bored and quit, an increased incentive to two-box, and finally a decrease in server morale. I can tell you from personal experience that I've seen a rise in all of the aforementioned and it disgusts me, as it should everyone else.

[Valent]

We are not digressing from the OP, we in fact are telling you guys the mechanics the OP wants are all ready in game. And im willing to bet my mortgage.

Someone bet me any amout of plat or account.

[Chicka]

I've stated before on other threads, the GMs don't wan't (or have flat-out stated) that patch-day respawns won't happen.

Yep, I've always tried to point out that the argument against this is weak (which essentially boils down to people will figure a way to bring the zones/server down.) Of course the answer to this is that it is not zone reset respawn we are looking for, but a simulation of the effect - that every now and then everything spawns at once. Frankly though, this is way down there in priority compared to variance+15 people rule.

[Humerox]

Actually the guilds came up with the rules because the GMs forced their own rules upon the player base, so rather deal with the absolutely ridiculous rules they made, we tried to make some of our own.

Turns out these rules are equally as ridiculous. Guess that just goes to show that rules about raiding are incredibly non-classic.

That's true.

What we need to do is change them again. We aren't forced to live with what's happening, we can change the rules. We did it before.

[Nizzarr]

Theres nothing you can do about changing the rules right now.

I could think of something though. If theres poeple fighting over a spawn, whoever get first hit gets the mob. Second guild that tries to KS gets 10 days suspension. the whole fucking guild.

I'm sure poeple would become more civil then.

[Skope]

Theres nothing you can do about changing the rules right now.

I could think of something though. If theres poeple fighting over a spawn, whoever get first hit gets the mob. Second guild that tries to KS gets 10 days suspension. the whole fucking guild.

I'm sure poeple would become more civil then.

Sure there is! Don't delude yourself... quite a bit can be done whether you'd like it to happen or not. Sure some of you are happy, but when the entire server is complaining then your happiness takes a back seat to more important matters. Also, if that were the case then considering an incident that happened not too long ago involving your guild members and a couple of your officers, your entire guild should have been disbanded. Ultimately it was a choice left up to the GMs and they chose not to do that.

[Nizzarr]

Sure there is! Don't delude yourself... quite a bit can be done whether you'd like it to happen or not. Sure some of you are happy, but when the entire server is complaining then your happiness takes a back seat to more important matters. Also, if that were the case then considering an incident that happened not too long ago involving your guild members and a couple of your officers, your entire guild should have been disbanded. Ultimately it was a choice left up to the GMs and they chose not to do that.

And who the fuck are you? Please spit what you know so we can put you at your place.

As for the rules being changed? yea right. Go ahead. make a post with your changes so the whole server can shit on it.

[eqholmes]

WHOA WHOA WHOA................... this is not my batman glass.

Holmes 50 Nerco DA
gretzky 50 Ranger DA

[Skope]

And who the fuck are you? Please spit what you know so we can put you at your place.

As for the rules being changed? yea right. Go ahead. make a post with your changes so the whole server can shit on it.

Settle down suzy, just pointing out the hypocrisy in your statement. The fact is the GMs don't want to babysit, and they've been forced to do so on many occasions even with the current rule set, so don't think for a second that an FTE/FFA will somehow magically work.

[Humerox]

Theres nothing you can do about changing the rules right now.

Damned if there isn't.

The devs will support new player made rules. It's part of server diplomacy. The only thing I remember the devs saying about this before, is that they wanted us to handle all this ourselves.

We need to get all the major guilds to the table, and have reps from the interested up-and-coming guilds also.

New rules don't need to be universally agreed to either. They weren't before. If the majority of guilds on the server agree to changes, then it happens. Period.

[Nizzarr]

so theres 3-5 casual guilds on the server and they want to put their rules down on the 2 "hardcore" guilds. So basically you guys can force both DA and IB to accept whatever you guys come up with? sounds fair! I suggest you start the meeting tonight!

[Ghaz]

Funny that "hardcore" gaming has turned into leaving your computer on for days and waiting for a text from a guild member.

Also, I heard that IB offered to not poopsock if DA stopped poopsocking. We see how that went.

[Humerox]

so theres 3-5 casual guilds on the server and they want to put their rules down on the 2 "hardcore" guilds. So basically you guys can force both DA and IB to accept whatever you guys come up with? sounds fair! I suggest you start the meeting tonight!

A majority of guilds can force DA and IB to accept it. DA and IB don't even have to to show up, tbh.

Be nice if they did, because it would indicate they're interested in the health and vitality of the server over their own self-interest.

[Chicka]

Funny that "hardcore" gaming has turned into leaving your computer on for days and waiting for a text from a guild member.

It's not funny at all.

Hardcore = what it takes to be top.

Sadly due to the set of rules we must abide by on this server it has been reduced to that. But don't fool yourself, there are actually quite a few people at the keyboard, even if the toons don't move much.

[Valent]

Do you

[Skope]

so theres 3-5 casual guilds on the server and they want to put their rules down on the 2 "hardcore" guilds. So basically you guys can force both DA and IB to accept whatever you guys come up with? sounds fair! I suggest you start the meeting tonight!

That's not the way it worked and you know it. Everyone had and has an input and it's as equal as everyone else's. In fact, there were only 4 guilds invited to the meetings, 2 hardcore guilds and divinity/remedy. Whether you like poopsocking or not doesn't matter at this point, because an overwhelming majority of the server doesn't.

[Nizzarr]

How about guilds that actively seeks to kill raid targets are only allowed to vote on raiding rules?

That sounds more fair to me. I dont really want Transcendence's rag team to have power over decisions.

[Humerox]

Well, GC was invited too, but I don't think they showed up, lol.

Point is we need to do something. Anyone who thinks the rules can't be changed is sadly mistaken.

[Valent]

"How about guilds that actively seeks to kill raid targets are only allowed to vote on raiding rules?"


IB and DA get to make the rules

[Nizzarr]

That's not the way it worked and you know it. Everyone had and has an input and it's as equal as everyone else's. In fact, there were only 4 guilds invited to the meetings, 2 hardcore guilds and divinity/remedy. Whether you like poopsocking or not doesn't matter at this point, because an overwhelming majority of the server doesn't.

No one likes poopsocking, but thats the only compromise that could be made outside of a rotation.

Find something better with this in mind:

1) no GM interactions.

That's it. I'll let you have my poopsock while you think of something.

[Bumamgar]

For what it's worth, WI, IB and DA have already worked together to agree on a raid-rule proposal and sent it to Nilbog...

[Humerox]

How about guilds that actively seeks to kill raid targets are only allowed to vote on raiding rules?

That sounds more fair to me. I dont really want Transcendence's rag team to have power over decisions.

Fair to whom?

All interested guilds should have a voice in what determining what happens on the server.

[Valent]

Bum your casual guild reputation could not possibly get any worse

[Humerox]

For what it's worth, WI, IB and DA have already worked together to agree on a raid-rule proposal and sent it to Nilbog...

Not good enough.

Where's the representation from other guilds? Transcendence, Divinity, and Remedy at the very least?

[Ghaz]

For what it's worth, WI, IB and DA have already worked together to agree on a raid-rule proposal and sent it to Nilbog...

So, because WI has poopsocked for what..one week? They have a say in how end-game raiding goes..If that's what non-poopsocking guilds have to do to have a voice then I'll gladly leave my character logged in for a week.

[Skope]

So, because WI has poopsocked for what..one week? They have a say in how end-game raiding goes..If that's what non-poopsocking guilds have to do to have a voice then I'll gladly leave my character logged in for a week.

No, apparently a new guild that's never taken down a target gets more say than guilds who've done so without the need to poopsock. That's what you call a backdoor deal and it comes from the mouth of Bumamgar himself. But i guess because his name is in blue that's okay.

[Bumamgar]

Love the flames guys... but the funny thing is, not one of you "casual guild" members who sent me PMs etc asked either of the most important questions:

What was the proposal?

Did Nilbog accept it?

So flame on, but you should know, the proposal was for First to Engage and a larger spawn variance window (+/- 7 days on 7 day mobs, making them essentially random spawns).

Pretty sure based on everything I've seen on these forums that both of these rules are exactly what the folks flaming me would have asked for anyway....

Edit: The only reason WI got a "say" btw, is because it was our officer who contacted IB and DA and brokered the deal.

[Humerox]

Problem is a proposal was sent down the pike without involving other guilds.

By "casual" do you mean non-poopsocking? Because I can tell you this...Divinity would be a whole lot more involved in it if it weren't for the socking. We didn't want to reduce ourselves to competing at that level.

[Virtuosos]

trans got maestro earlier this week....thats a raid boss right? took us 4minutes to kill him as well :/


and i still like my idea....all bosses have a chance of spawning 5minutes after death ~ 7days....so you could have like 2000 pops in a week or 7 :p

[Skope]

Love the flames guys... but the funny thing is, not one of you "casual guild" members who sent me PMs etc asked either of the most important questions:

What was the proposal?

Did Nilbog accept it?

So flame on, but you should know, the proposal was for First to Engage and a larger spawn variance window (+/- 7 days on 7 day mobs, making them essentially random spawns).

Pretty sure based on everything I've seen on these forums that both of these rules are exactly what the folks flaming me would have asked for anyway....

No, it isn't and nor would I have been, but don't think for a second that if your name wasn't blue you wouldn't have been given preferential treatment by IB/DA. Thanks for outing the proposal by the way, only after the flames and accusations.

There have been better proposals than that and they've been shot down damn near immediately, and don't think your FTE or random spawn were ground-breaking either, as both have been discusses before. Which again brings me to my previous post, who the hell are you to make back-door deals with IB/DA? When you can answer that than perhaps I can get to the remainder of my questions, including the details and specifics of the proposal. If it's one thing I learned whilst raiding here it's that every guild and everyone has their own incentive, you're no exception.

[Bumamgar]

I can make whatever deals I want to make with whatever guilds I want to make.

So can you...

Also, no one claimed either suggestion was "groundbreaking". They were the rules of engagement that leaders of all three guilds were willing to agree on. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

As for my reference to "casual" guilds, that's how you referred to yourselves above....

[Humerox]

I can make whatever deals I want to make with whatever guilds I want to make.

So can you...

Good. At least that's clear...because DA, IB and WI making end-game decisions by themselves seems about like having Congress vote on their own pay increases...

Oh, wait...

[Skope]

I can make whatever deals I want to make with whatever guilds I want to make.

So can you...

And yet again bringing me to my point before, a man in blue doing so. Do you think they would have cared had your name not been that pretty little color? Could you imagine if they'd agreed to speak to guilds who have actually downed targets without poopsocking? There's a reason divinity hasn't done that and still managed to kill stuff, you can't say the same and yet your opinion is somehow more valuable. If you were really looking to propose a good idea that would be welcome to input from other guilds it would have been done so, instead you give us a sliver of info and the rest is for us to fill in. It's shady, you had to have known that before-hand, I'm just here reminding you.

Want to be treated fairly? treat the rest of us who deserve to be treated at LEAST as equals to you fairly and you may get somewhere with my input. I've never been known to rant but christ, what the hell were you thinking? How could you have not seen this coming from a mile away?

[azeth]

why're you such a whiny bitch 24/7 humerox?

[Bumamgar]

And yet again bringing me to my point before, a man in blue doing so. Do you think they would have cared had your name not been that pretty little color?

Well, considering *I* didn't actually broker the deal, an officer in WI did and I just agreed to it, you might want to learn the facts first...

Oh wait, forum flaming trolls don't care about facts. My bad.

[Humerox]

When did devs start actively playing again?

Not only that, why are they involved in server politics?

Before anyone goes waving the ban-stick here...I'm seriously asking. It was my understanding that devs had stopped playing. For precisely this reason.

[Bumamgar]

Oh, and before everyone's panties get too bunched, Nilbog actually rejected our proposal anyway :)

[Bumamgar]

When did devs start actively playing again?

Not only that, why are they involved in server politics?

Before anyone goes waving the ban-stick here...I'm seriously asking. It was my understanding that devs had stopped playing. For precisely this reason.
I was an active player first, then became a dev. Note, a DEV, not a GM. I work on source code, doing things like nerfing XP and so forth. I have no access to content.

[Skope]

Well, considering *I* didn't actually broker the deal, an officer in WI did and I just agreed to it, you might want to learn the facts first...

Oh wait, forum flaming trolls don't care about facts. My bad.

I said it was shady and keeping that info is just as shady. You outed it JUST NOW and we had no idea what was going on, yet you're claiming i'm the one ranting and flaming because you weren't accurate. Logic dictates you blame yourself, so quit telling me i'm flaming and fill me in, then perhaps I can actually get to my questions. But this wasn't done, and you didn't take it upon yourselves to do so, therefore I'm skeptical and I have a reason to be skeptical. In fact you still haven't outed it and you're complaining about us complaining that we haven't been treated fairly nor are currently being treated fairly.

Fine... So what are the facts? what are the details? If you don't answer me we can all safely assume our initial presumptions were right.

EDIT: telling me i'm flaming and i'm wrong when you're refusing to give up information isn't helping you any.

[Bumamgar]

telling me i'm flaming and i'm wrong when you're refusing to give up information isn't helping you any.

Except I haven't refused to give up any info... You flamed first based on assumptions and never actually asked for any further info.

Edit: sorry, just saw that you asked for the facts and details... I've given them already, but I'll summarize them here for you since I'm sure you need that...

- An officer in WI decided to contact IB and DA leadership to see if he could get them to agree on a set of raid rules to propose with a goal of eliminating camping
- A proposal of First to engage (with a provision to make mobs shout their first aggro target so that it's clear who was first to engage) and a fully randomized spawn variance that still averaged to once every 7 days was agreed on.
- This proposal was PMed to Nilbog who looked at it and rejected it

This was done several weeks ago.

[Humerox]

Well...

He did say the proposal was rejected. So maybe we should concentrate on getting something done.

At least it proves that DA, IB and WI recognize that changes need to be made.

Maybe if more guilds were tabled then those three Bum, Nilbog might consider a change more seriously.

[Skope]

Well...

He did say the proposal was rejected. So maybe we should concentrate on getting something done.

At least it proves that DA, IB and WI recognize that changes need to be made.

But only behind closed doors. Keep that in mind.

Bumamgar, that was a HUGE step backwards. A really really poor move on your guys' part, all 3 of you.

[Virtuosos]

maybe trans should start hosting those monthly or weekly guild meetings again....


OR ANYBODY THAT WANTS CHANGE >.> shouldnt be hard to get in contact with the 6 or 7 guild leaders that have the capacity to raid...ive been gone for 2 months so i dont know who is what anymore except my own guild *happy to see it has awaken again!*, but if people really want change then stop bitching on the forums and make something happen...it 200 people from the major guilds agree to something, chances are the GMs will respect it.

[Humerox]

Maybe Trans should host them again.

Not really a bad idea, actually.

[Hogwash]

Something has to give or more guilds will be formed solely to camp raid mobs (because it works), as opposed to raiding. I have zero respect for these type of guilds, who dont even try to raid, they just camp. Almost worse than the guilds who fight camping with camping. In a nutshell QQ.

[Bumamgar]

Something has to give or more guilds will be formed solely to camp raid mobs (because it works), as opposed to raiding. I have zero respect for these type of guilds, who dont even try to raid, they just camp. Almost worse than the guilds who fight camping with camping. In a nutshell QQ.

Do you really think guilds are being formed to camp raid mobs?

I hate camping. I much prefer to track targets and mobilize.

However, the rules on this server favor camping, so if my raiding guild wants to raid, we HAVE to camp, because if we don't, when we mobilize, the *other* guild which is camping will tell us to piss off for 30 minutes due to the current rules. I'm forced to camp if I want to kill raid targets. Don't want to do it, but have no choice...

[Skope]

So instead you converse with the 2 biggest poopsockers on the server and expect to get things done? Where is your head? It ultimately boils down to 2 (now you three) guilds being content with the situation instead of asking everyone to sit down and come up with something. If nothing can be accomplished then just go FFA until something does get done. what this proves is that you FAVOR poopsocking to an FFA saying screw these rules. Unless, of course, you didn't think that far ahead, which i honestly wouldn't doubt now.

[Bumamgar]

If we went FFA we would be in violation of the server rules, and the first guild to ignore another guild's camp claim would be petitioned and punished. I don't want to break server rules...

[Hogwash]

Do you really think guilds are being formed to camp raid mobs?

I hate camping. I much prefer to track targets and mobilize.


Actions speak louder than words.

[Skope]

If we went FFA we would be in violation of the server rules, and the first guild to ignore another guild's camp claim would be petitioned and punished. I don't want to break server rules...

What if 3 or 4 guilds vowed to do the same? Hypothetically speaking, what would happen then?

I'm not trying to incite a riot, I'm attempting to find a reasonable answer. But, thus far, reasonable answers have been poked through with holes so relentlessly that it's become disheartening to even try. Still, I think there are viable options that could gel with the server rules, reduce the problems of GM interference and still require work (tracking/mobilization) for guilds in such a manner that "most" of the server will be happy with. But attempting to attain an answer by closed-doors meetings between only 3 guilds isn't the way to do that.

[Uaellaen]

Actions speak louder than words.

have to agree on that ...

[Humerox]

Do you really think guilds are being formed to camp raid mobs?

No. But any new hi-end guild is forced to adopt that policy, because it's all they can do.

Look to yourselves for the proof. Was WI formed to compete by camping? And what has happened? The end result is the same.

You want a proposal to go to Nilbog that may be accepted? Table more than IB and DA. Make a serious effort to include up-and-coming guilds so there is real server representation.

That may garner more attention.

[Supreme]

Before we ever start talking about meetings we have to start a new thread and come up with some SERIOUSLY constructive ideas that a unified server can deliver to Nilbog. This includes any plans to change how spawn variance works *IF* it stays in.

The reality is that perma-camping will not stop and rotation is the ONLY answer but the rotation needs to be constructed in such a way that the spawn is "RANDOM" and that the window of opportunity is "SMALL".

I hesitate to make a complex system because anything too complex is usually a bad idea. So i look for simple solutions while trying to maintain the classic Everquest experience. My OP was to point out that 12-20 spawns within a 30 day cycle was not the norm for live. And that it needs to be 16-20. Perhaps that is the start..and adding in the other ingredients (such as a 3-7 day spawn varriance with a 120 min opportunity window) could be a workable start.

[Humerox]

Before we ever start talking about meetings we have to start a new thread and come up with some SERIOUSLY constructive ideas that a unified server can deliver to Nilbog. This includes any plans to change how spawn variance works *IF* it stays in...

Problem with that is you're gonna get shot down before you can get anywhere. EVEN if you have an idea that's great. You should know this! :)

That's why the meetings have to come first.

[Supreme]

How about guilds that actively seeks to kill raid targets are only allowed to vote on raiding rules?

That sounds more fair to me. I dont really want Transcendence's rag team to have power over decisions.

You are a real funny piece of shit....


Of course we actually kill raid targets every night of the week...and do not resort to pooping in a sock to get it done.

And that Transcendence rag team is mostly LoS that you was guilded with on live until your sorry ass was /guildremoved by tigole.

So screw you sir.

[Bumamgar]

Here's the deal. I didn't do anything other than sign off on a proposal. I'm far to busy running my guild and doing dev work on the server to organize a multi-guild meeting, but I certainly was happy to provide an opinion when one of my officers took the initiative to try and solve the problem.

Why don't one of you stop flaming me for a moment and do exactly that, coordinate a multi-guild meeting and come up with a proposal for Nilbog.

You do that, and I'll make a point to attend.

[Skope]

That idea was proposed and laughed at, unfortunately. Imo, it does address the issue of GM interference (the various instances of trains, fraps and bans that have occurred recently), and tracking/mobilization depending on how large the window is. It doesn't have to be 2 hours long but can be something like having 20 in zone within 15-30 minutes of a pop.

This isn't the only solution, though. You can even play with it a little. I know the GMs stated there would be no patch-day respawns, but, hypothetically, if there were respawns on patch days these could be set on rotation whereas other respawns that aren't on patch days could be set on a different set of rules (first to engage, for instance). This would increase the amount of spawns per month and still allow for tracking, mobilizing, and offer an incentive to up and coming guilds.

But quite frankly, the rules don't even have to even closely resemble what's been stated above by supreme. the fact of the matter is the rules can be totally different, and there really are a LOT of possibilities. It's really the details that will be the biggest points of discussion.

[Supreme]

Problem with that is you're gonna get shot down before you can get anywhere. EVEN if you have an idea that's great. You should know this! :)

That's why the meetings have to come first.

As with all things attrition is starting to wear people down. The drive to play 24/7 is taking a toll on guilds/players and the server community as a whole.

Only those that TRULY want to see a consensus plan will see it solved.

Either make the camps so long that poopsocking is not viable. Or introduce an alternate mechanism that triggers the spawn. This was done on live with the Cleric Epic...i am sure it can be done here.

Like..non-loot raid boss spawns in Cazic Thule. Killing him triggers the spawning of Cazic Thule in fear. Or Rare shard drops from Priest in Permafrost that is used turned into an NPC in Temple of Sol Ro that calls Nagafen.

ya it isnt classic but these kinds of ideas is what we need to think about to come up with some solutions. IF we really desire a solution.

[Humerox]

How bout this?

I've been speaking for myself here, not Divinity, however...I'm going to talk with our people about a possible representative to send to any meeting that comes up. I know for a fact that we have many knowledgeable, level-headed people that could fill the role.

I never flamed ya Bum. Appreciate the work yer puttin' in. Seriously. :)

[Supreme]

Here's the deal. I didn't do anything other than sign off on a proposal. I'm far to busy running my guild and doing dev work on the server to organize a multi-guild meeting, but I certainly was happy to provide an opinion when one of my officers took the initiative to try and solve the problem.

Why don't one of you stop flaming me for a moment and do exactly that, coordinate a multi-guild meeting and come up with a proposal for Nilbog.

You do that, and I'll make a point to attend.

When meetings do happen of course you will be invited to attend. I would love to hear any ideas that we can do to make raiding better on p1999.

[Hogwash]

Hows this, if you aren't raiding/clearing a plane, gtfo.

[Valent]

Currently DA is camping Vox, IB is camping Inny and WI is camping Naggy. Div/Trans go camp CT since you think the variance is 96 hours he should spawn soon.

[Humerox]

Currently DA is camping Vox, IB is camping Inny and WI is camping Naggy. Div/Trans go camp CT since you think the variance is 96 hours he should spawn soon.

We don't camp, sir. :)

Point still stands. I'm sure Div can send a rep to any meeting. Anyone wants to contact me in-game or PM is welcome.

[Valent]

You should try it. Every 8 hours you get to clear fear mobs to gear your members.

[Supreme]

The way it is setup you have a very small chance of it spawning within the first 48 and a greater chance after wards..as i understand. So you probably have less than 1-3% chance of seeing it spawn in the first 12 hours.

[Supreme]

Currently DA is camping Vox, IB is camping Inny and WI is camping Naggy. Div/Trans go camp CT since you think the variance is 96 hours he should spawn soon.

We tried..but when i went to OGGOK to get some SOCKS to POOP in i was told DA/IB already bought them out from a couple days ago and the next shipment was diverted to Neriak and Halas to accomodate the DEMAND!

Guess we will just have to do it the old fashion way and watch for it with RAIDS and TRACKERS.

[Valent]

There is no way you were in Legacy of Steel...LoS players were good and could figure out game mechanics quickly.

[Otto]

Rules can't be changed because the GM's put down the 100% unbreakable ground rule of no First to engage will be allowed on this server. Can thank Tibador + Allizia and the casual raiders for that one.

As far as everything else, if there is no first to engage rule, camping will always rule supreme. I don't want to do it. I usually don't, but there are apparantly well over 100 people on this server that are okay with leaving their character in game for days at a time and not actually playing the god damn game.

Unless they have IP exemptions and they abuse them. Already reported 4 people doing that from multiple guilds...

Edit: Thats my opinion and I only speak for myself.

[Supreme]

There is no way you were in Legacy of Steel...LoS players were good and could figure out game mechanics quickly.


Actually i was there from the first day it was FORMED including the discussion on the guild name at Outback Steakhouse in College Station Texas.

Until you know me i suggest you shut up before you embarrass yourself further.

[Valent]

For being in such an uber guild you seem like a newb here.

[Skope]

Rules can't be changed because the GM's put down the 100% unbreakable ground rule of no First to engage will be allowed on this server. Can thank Tibador + Allizia and the casual raiders for that one.

As far as everything else, if there is no first to engage rule, camping will always rule supreme. I don't want to do it. I usually don't, but there are apparantly well over 100 people on this server that are okay with leaving their character in game for days at a time and not actually playing the god damn game.

Unless they have IP exemptions and they abuse them. Already reported 4 people doing that from multiple guilds...

Edit: Thats my opinion and I only speak for myself.

Otto is right about the two-boxing issue. I've seen quite a few first-hand, myself. And these were the ones who did so rather blatantly, let's not forget that they generally have 1 char poopsocking while the other is doing god knows what, so it's very hard to keep track of.

There's also the issue of GMs not wanting an FFA because of the problems it will cause for them, this goes hand in hand with the dislike for FTE. I too think that both FFA and FTE will cause absolute chaos and force the server into a mess that it will have to quickly find itself searching a way out of, but at least it will cause some movement. This stalemate is arguably worse.

[Bumamgar]

As far as everything else, if there is no first to engage rule, camping will always rule supreme. I don't want to do it. I usually don't, but there are apparantly well over 100 people on this server that are okay with leaving their character in game for days at a time and not actually playing the god damn game.
This is partially an artifact of there being nothing much else to do once hitting level 50 pre-Kunark :)

[Humerox]

Rules can't be changed because the GM's put down the 100% unbreakable ground rule of no First to engage will be allowed on this server. Can thank Tibador + Allizia and the casual raiders for that one..

As far as everything else, if there is no first to engage rule, camping will always rule supreme. I don't want to do it. I usually don't, but there are apparantly well over 100 people on this server that are okay with leaving their character in game for days at a time and not actually playing the god damn game.

Unless they have IP exemptions and they abuse them. Already reported 4 people doing that from multiple guilds...

Edit: Thats my opinion and I only speak for myself.

Man...that's defeatist. You know the server population can change the rules, Otto. You were there for it before. All it takes is coordinating it.

If the server outlaws camping raid mobs, then it's outlawed. Nilbog told us a long time ago it was up to us to determine the rules.

To echo Hogwash, if you're not clearing/raiding....gtfo.

[Supreme]

Rules can't be changed because the GM's put down the 100% unbreakable ground rule of no First to engage will be allowed on this server. Can thank Tibador + Allizia and the casual raiders for that one.

As far as everything else, if there is no first to engage rule, camping will always rule supreme. I don't want to do it. I usually don't, but there are apparantly well over 100 people on this server that are okay with leaving their character in game for days at a time and not actually playing the god damn game.

Unless they have IP exemptions and they abuse them. Already reported 4 people doing that from multiple guilds...

Edit: Thats my opinion and I only speak for myself.

Tibador and Allizia no longer play on p1999. So why are we allowing outdated thinking to dictate our raid rules?

I am the guild leader of Transcendence. The raid scene has changed alot and Transcendence has unloaded the troublemakers, drama queens and loot whores. We are back in raid mode to get work done.

I 100% support FTE. IF boss spawns and your crew is ready to engage then fucking engage. None of this shitbag sitting around waiting. Nagafen spawns..groups are formed, pets are out, resist gear on ..CHARGE! No different that if the frenzy in lower guk spawns or the derv camps in north ro.

Murphy's Law states that if the plan is too complex then it is usually a BAD idea. FTE is a simple plan.

I still think however we are cheating ourselves out of spawns!

[Supreme]

For being in such an uber guild you seem like a newb here.

I am glad you think your opinion matters to me.

How about this..why do you not do something productive, balls up and not ride on the coattails of someone else...then come back here and try to talk shit.

[Valent]

How about you motivate your guild to kill gods/dragons instead of whinning about the raid rules.

Tigole would not like your leadership style.

[Valent]

What if I said my old guild beat LoS in content. Would you value my opinion?

[Evorix]

I 100% support FTE. IF boss spawns and your crew is ready to engage then fucking engage. None of this shitbag sitting around waiting. Nagafen spawns..groups are formed, pets are out, resist gear on ..CHARGE! No different that if the frenzy in lower guk spawns or the derv camps in north ro.

When a boss spawns, it takes about 20-30mins to get ppl online, buffed, and mobs cleared before it is dead. Noone is waiting.

[Zordana]

Ima school you all on proper statistics yet.

As you can see from my latest spreadsheet, there's an inverse relationship between the ratio of your perceived value of your opinion to your opinion's actual importance.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/mmiles01/arrogance.jpg

I've graphed the data in both linear and logarithmic scales, to edify the implications.

What does this mean for the average forumgoer? Well, statistically speaking, the bigger of an asshat you are, the greater the probability you look like a fool. It's an exponential trend, folks. I'm just sayin.

you, sir, won!!!!!

[Skope]

if you call 5 days waiting for it to pop "not waiting". I would love to see your definition of waiting. He's not talking about the 30 minute engagement rule, he's speaking about the previous 5 days of laying claim to it that's the problem

[Zordana]

perhaps you dont kill raid bosses and have no experience in the matter... yes the thread says that and i have even asked a gm about it. but the point is ever since ive been raiding no mob has been outside the 24hr and 48hr windows. is this intended? no idea

dude, this hurts!

[Supreme]

How about you motivate your guild to kill gods/dragons instead of whinning about the raid rules.

Tigole would not like your leadership style.


Ya? You know Tigole personally?

[Supreme]

What if I said my old guild beat LoS in content. Would you value my opinion?

Not on my watch you didn't.

[Otto]

How could you ever outlaw camping? That's absurdly difficult to manage. Characters logged out in the zone the raid target spawns in... banning people from zones like sol b, perma, and even the planes for farming other gear... It's not something you can watch and manage.

The only option is to camp, make a rotation, or have every single person on the server agree to overthrow the FTE or FFA ban by the GMs and be grownup about it.

Call it defeatism, pessimism, whatever you want... I'd prefer you prove me wrong.

[Valent]

Not on my watch you didn't.

You sure? Was your only raid AoW?

[Evorix]

How could you ever outlaw camping? That's absurdly difficult to manage. Characters logged out in the zone the raid target spawns in... banning people from zones like sol b, perma, and even the planes for farming other gear... It's not something you can watch and manage.

The only option is to camp, make a rotation, or have every single person on the server agree to overthrow the FTE or FFA ban by the GMs and be grownup about it.

Call it defeatism, pessimism, whatever you want... I'd prefer you prove me wrong.

I agree with this. Even if you add an FFA or FTE rule there will still be camping. All the camping will take place right outside the boss that is due spawn point with a monk rdy to throw the first shuriken. Once a boss spawns, 2+ guilds will try to engage and will end in a cluster fuck every time. There is simply not enough content for FFA in my opinion. More than one guild will be camping every mob ready to engage.

[Supreme]

How could you ever outlaw camping? That's absurdly difficult to manage. Characters logged out in the zone the raid target spawns in... banning people from zones like sol b, perma, and even the planes for farming other gear... It's not something you can watch and manage.

The only option is to camp, make a rotation, or have every single person on the server agree to overthrow the FTE or FFA ban by the GMs and be grownup about it.

Call it defeatism, pessimism, whatever you want... I'd prefer you prove me wrong.

You are right..it is either camp or make rotation. That are the two root choices.

Right now the server is choosing to camp. Once there are enough guilds to perma camp EVERY raid mob that is when a rotation will need to be in place.

[Supreme]

You sure? Was your only raid AoW?

What are you trying to say? You beat LoS to AoWar?

[Humerox]

How could you ever outlaw camping? That's absurdly difficult to manage. Characters logged out in the zone the raid target spawns in... banning people from zones like sol b, perma, and even the planes for farming other gear... It's not something you can watch and manage.

The only option is to camp, make a rotation, or have every single person on the server agree to overthrow the FTE or FFA ban by the GMs and be grownup about it.

Call it defeatism, pessimism, whatever you want... I'd prefer you prove me wrong.

Not outlaw camping. Outlaw raid boss camping.

At the minimum the toons aren't logged in, right? That gives everyone a relatively equal shot at coordinating and getting into the zone.

It wouldn't take every single person on the server to agree to overthrow anything, either. If meetings took place and the majority ruled, that's the way it is.

People are forgetting they said it's up to us to establish the rules.

[Valent]

No one beat LoS to AoW, so I assume that was the only raid you were on. Since no one beat you on your watch.

[Skope]

I agree with this. Even if you add an FFA or FTE rule there will still be camping. All the camping will take place right outside the boss that is due spawn point with a monk rdy to throw the first shuriken. Once a boss spawns, 2+ guilds will try to engage and will end in a cluster fuck every time. There is simply not enough content for FFA in my opinion. More than one guild will be camping every mob ready to engage.

This has been discussed and a proposal was a pseudo-rotation system where a guild is still forced to track and engage a mob within a certain allotted period of time before the next guild gets a shot. This way you'd still have to put in actual effort to get the mob you want. This doesn't even have to include PoSky, which will inevitably become a cluster****.

[Evorix]

Not outlaw camping. Outlaw raid boss camping.

At the minimum the toons aren't logged in, right? That gives everyone a relatively equal shot at coordinating and getting into the zone.

It wouldn't take every single person on the server to agree to overthrow anything, either. If meetings took place and the majority ruled, that's the way it is.

People are forgetting they said it's up to us to establish the rules.

So you are proposing that everyone should camp their tune out in the zone except a tracker, when a boss spawns every rush and try to log them in first? That is about the most retarded proposal ever...

If you outlaw camping in boss zones everyone will just camp outside the zone ready to zone in...

What if someone is clearing a zone and the boss spawns?

... the only thing that will work with the current amount of content is camping or rotations