Reclaim Energy on Mage Focus Items

[Gorroth]

The effect should be able to be triggered from the inventory, thus used by classes who do not have access to the "Reclaim Energy" spell. This is currently not the case, as it gives a "your class/race/deity cannot use the item" message.


Shamans using it. Clickable from inventory slot. (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=63)



Great item for shamans.
Posted: May 18 2001 10:12pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this | Follow
Anonymous
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Since shamans never get a reclaim energy spell, the reclaim energy right-clickable on the broom (or any of the mage focus items) is very nice. I keep my broom with me whenever I think I'll be using my pet.
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Posting from MN
mewzillion, Posted: Jul 24 2001 3:21am, Score: Sub-Default, [expand] yep u can use it form inventory slot



People confirming that the effect can be used by other classes. (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=697)

Can the reclaim energy effect be used by non-mages?
Posted: Sep 10 2001 9:39am | IP: Logged | Reply to this | Follow
Anonymous
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In looking for a reclaim energy item for my nec I've run across tons of reclaim energy items for mages, but only velious bracers for necs.

Will this shovel, right-clicked in the inventory of a nec, succeed? I know it works from inventory of a mage, and I know some items (ie, Circlet of Shadow, Words of Darkness) that work from inventory are still class restricted.

Thanks in advance!
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RE: Can the reclaim energy effect be used by non-mages?
Posted: Feb 10 2002 6:59am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Zyphyr
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Yes, the reclaim efect can be used by non-mages. I know many shaman who have/use one of the foci to reclaim their dogs.
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Another source stating that it can be used by shamans. (http://www.notacult.com/guide_trollshaman.html)


Shovel of Ponz (general inventory)

Yes, I know it's a magician only item, but Shaman can use the effect of reclaim energy from a general inventory slot. Reclaim Energy kills your pet, but gives you mana (depending on the amount of HP your pet has). Awesome for emergencies when you need an extra 200 mana, or for when you need to zone and your pet would die anyway.

Fix please.

[Swishahouse]

http://memegenerator.net/Insanity-Wolf/ImageMacro/1524921/Insanity-Wolf-LET-ME-EAT-WOLFIE-4-MANA.jpg

[Ropethunder]

According to alakazam it's "Any Slot/Can Equip". Maybe this was changed at some point.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=64

[Qaedain]

You provided evidence from 2001, which is post-Kunark. You need proof that your claims are actually classic.

[feanan]

i highly doubt that they would have added the ability for other classes to use a mage focus items later on. if anything, they would have fixed/removed it

[Gorroth]

Guh, not this argument again. Each time someone wants to be a cockblock about a minor thing, they fling around that pretext.

Content is tweaked for the Classic Era, not just "Classic" aka vanilla Everquest without any expansion. If the devs really want to go on a case-by-case basis and disable/re-enable stuff when they release expansions, that's their right. Other than that, things that were available during the EQ trilogy will be made available regardless of when *exactly* they were implemented (e.g. Wu's armor, etc.).

Now about this particular topic, it's a small secret of the trade, something that wasn't very well documented. It took a bit of time for the players to find out about it and a little more to post about it, hence why the posts are Kunark-Velious era and not "true classic".

For me, if people *really* want to make us believe that Verant went around and changed this item to be clickable by everyone from the inventory when it was only usable from the very start by mages only, they're either being buttholes or delusional about MMO development in general.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everquest
# The Ruins of Kunark (March 2000)
# The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
# The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)

So yeah, the posts are indeed "Classic^TM" in my book.

[Phallax]

Guh, not this argument again. Each time someone wants to be a cockblock about a minor thing, they fling around that pretext.

Content is tweaked for the Classic Era, not just "Classic" aka vanilla Everquest without any expansion. If the devs really want to go on a case-by-case basis and disable/re-enable stuff when they release expansions, that's their right. Other than that, things that were available during the EQ trilogy will be made available regardless of when *exactly* they were implemented (e.g. Wu's armor, etc.).

Now about this particular topic, it's a small secret of the trade, something that wasn't very well documented. It took a bit of time for the players to find out about it and a little more to post about it, hence why the posts are Kunark-Velious era and not "true classic".

For me, if people *really* want to make us believe that Verant went around and changed this item to be clickable by everyone from the inventory when it was only usable from the very start by mages only, they're either being buttholes or delusional about MMO development in general.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everquest
# The Ruins of Kunark (March 2000)
# The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
# The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)

So yeah, the posts are indeed "Classic^TM" in my book.

If this argument were the case wed have the sub-50 spells that came with Kunark already available to us as well, but we dont because they are going to release them when they were actually released.

So your argument holds no truth or ground.

As to the OP. Thatd be nice if they made it that way, Id actually get one! ANd eat my pets till I got a dark blue, and iIm sure Zilo could abuse his wolf procs for mana as well.

[Pyrocat]

I think I remember mages being able to reclaim energy on eye of zomm for a while for huge mana regen.

[Gorroth]

If this argument were the case wed have the sub-50 spells that came with Kunark already available to us as well, but we dont because they are going to release them when they were actually released.

So your argument holds no truth or ground.

Flawed logic. Kunark spells are sold by Kunark vendors, thus they shouldn't be available yet.

I can't believe I'm meeting so much resistance here, do you people enjoy making things difficult for others? Here, I'll make it real easy to understand, complete with bullet points.

- There's no reason why it would have been changed from being a mage-only effect to being able to be used by everyone. Mage focus items most likely behaved this way from the start.

- It does not grant an unfair advantage to some classes/races (i.e. no possible expoits that I know of).

- It is classic, as evidenced by the linked posts.

Therefore, it should be fixed.


Want to know of an other item that gives an even bigger advantage to some people? The famous guise of the deceiver. It behaves exactly the same way as the mage focus items, being able to be clicked from the inventory and granting its effect to the user even though it can't be equipped. It lets good races bank and sell in evil cities without needing to be an enchanter; talk about a borderline unfair advantage.

[dali_lb]

Maybe it was usable from inventory for classes not supposed to have access to it. Many things was. that was the reason they removed eg. the guise from drops and made a new item. letting those that already got the original one keep it, as it weren't really killing game ballance, just a minor effect that the dev's didn't want everyone to be able to have access to..

Now, reclaim energy was never from the start supposed to be available for all pet or companion classes, and yes it can be abused, but mainly because the reclaim effect on P99 doesn't work exactly like Live.

Add to that, that P99 is "striving" to be as legit "classic" as possible, but the devs do make decissions of not making everything true classic, if they don't like it.

If it had to be 110% classic, the project wouldn't even have started yet, and things like MQ'ing and eg. Tumpy tonic quest wouldn't have been disabled.

I have many things I would see changed if the server should be 110% legit, but its not gonna happen.

Personly I see it as the same thing as demanding to get long standing bugs that existed since the start of live game reintroduced, just because people was used to have them as Sony was too lazy to fix them.

And i can't see why they should make the Items usable from inv. The classes that want this already have ways of getting mana back to 100% pretty fast:p

[Jify]

Im sure Zilo could abuse his wolf procs for mana as well.

While I do agree that Zilo is an abuser, I don't believe this would work. Reclaim energy should be based on the HP of the pet that is being reclaimed. (I can't seem to find anything to back this, but I did note that the Improved Reclaim Energy AA increases mana returned from 75% to 95% of the cost. Since Zilo's pet "cost" zero, he'd still get no return)

Since Zilo's doggy only has 1 hp, he'd get a very poor return for reclaiming it.

This however, may not be enough to stop Zilo. He's been known to slaughter dogs, kittens, and small children alike for the thrill alone.

Also, to support your agruement, the below was taken from a classic "shaman" FoH website. (http://www.notacult.com/guide_trollshaman.html)
Shovel of Ponz (general inventory)

Yes, I know it's a magician only item, but Shaman can use the effect of reclaim energy from a general inventory slot. Reclaim Energy kills your pet, but gives you mana (depending on the amount of HP your pet has). Awesome for emergencies when you need an extra 200 mana, or for when you need to zone and your pet would die anyway.

[guineapig]

In any case, you would probably regain mana faster by simply meditating. Pet casting times are anything but squick.

[rioisk]

guys, there's a bunch of non-classic things going on here. It's actually a load of crap too because they "fix" the XP (royally f'ing over people) but don't fix the nice perks like this.

1) Reclaim energy
2) Sword of Rune proc on all mobs
3) reclaim energy on eye of zomm

[girth]

guys, there's a bunch of non-classic things going on here. It's actually a load of crap too because they "fix" the XP (royally f'ing over people) but don't fix the nice perks like this.

1) Reclaim energy
2) Sword of Rune proc on all mobs
3) reclaim energy on eye of zomm

They don't implement all bugs/exploits like they were in classic just because it was in classic. You should know that by now.

[Gorroth]

Jify is right, the mana gained back is proportional to the HP of the pet, which makes using the spell to regain mana rather ineffective*.

The argument about classes who lack reclaim energy already have means of getting mana back fast doesn't make sense. Even enchanters have reclaim energy and they use their pets far less than shamans and they don't have a problem getting mana back. Shamans using a pet focus to reclaim their pets would mostly be a way to mitigate the enormous mana drain of trying to get a decent pet; at 500 mana a cast, medding for 15mn until you finally get a good pet isn't fun, it's a damn chore.


Maybe it was usable from inventory for classes not supposed to have access to it. Many things was. that was the reason they removed eg. the guise from drops and made a new item. letting those that already got the original one keep it, as it weren't really killing game ballance, just a minor effect that the dev's didn't want everyone to be able to have access to..

Add to that, that P99 is "striving" to be as legit "classic" as possible, but the devs do make decissions of not making everything true classic, if they don't like it.

Using your own example, there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the two items (focus items vs. guise). Both grant a minor effect that doesn't "kill game ballance".

*Furthermore, some dev (Haynar?) stated that he was working on trying to implement pet canni for mages (reclaim high level earth pet for more mana), a minor "exploit" that became a minor "feature" over time. After all, this is emu is trying to replicate EQ the way it was, not the way it was supposed to be (minus powerful, glaring expoits).

I've wasted enough time replying to random people. I've presented facts. I've made my case. I'll be waiting for a dev reply before making any further posts.

[dali_lb]

Reclaim energy should be based on the HP of the pet that is being reclaimed.

You got it some wrong, some right.

The word here is "Should" be based on the HP of the pet, but not the"number" 1, 50, 125, 375 hp or whatever. It should be based on the %HP the pet has left when you reclaim it. if pet is at 33% hp you will only get 25% mana return

This is not the case on P99 However. Try reclaiming a pet a 1% or 100%.
you get the exact same amount back - 75% mana of pet summoning.

Hense it can be vastly abused on P99, unless they change how reclaim works.

[Pyrocat]

bump

[Haynar]

You got it some wrong, some right.

The word here is "Should" be based on the HP of the pet, but not the"number" 1, 50, 125, 375 hp or whatever. It should be based on the %HP the pet has left when you reclaim it. if pet is at 33% hp you will only get 25% mana return

This is not the case on P99 However. Try reclaiming a pet a 1% or 100%.
you get the exact same amount back - 75% mana of pet summoning.

Hense it can be vastly abused on P99, unless they change how reclaim works.

Do we have anything that says what % of hitpoints it should be? The current way it is, it will return level of pet * 4 mana. The only numbers I have seen anyone say are 10% of HPs. I am still looking at how good those numbers are. I am out of town at the moment, so my access is limited. Just any numbers on how much mana was returned from an earth pet, should give me the info what I need to extapolate the rest. If I remember right, the 49 earth pet takes 200 base mana to cast. How much mana should a full HP earth pet return?

Haynar

[mmiles8]

In my attempts at finding the formula, what I found was information on why pet canni doesn't exist within the scope of P99.

Quotes upon quotes and evidence explaining that pet canni consisted of several things:
Improved Reclaim Energy AA, a Summoning Efficiency focus item, a mount,

It was based off of Current HP, not percentage of HP. If it was based off of percentage of HP you could use any pet of any level. Mages cannid the focused earth pet or MS2 for a reason: Its high HP.

And here's your citation!


http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-3365.html

Mages get Reclaim Energy (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=331&source=Live) at level 1. It kills the pet and gives the caster mana determined by the hp of the pet (it's not a straight 1:1 conversion, tho...I forget the formula).

At around level 50+, the hp of the mage's pet is so high that it actually gives more mana back than it took to cast it. So a mage can therefor just cast a pet, reclaim it and get an overall increase in mana. This is Pet Canni, cannibalizing their pets just like shamans cannibalize their bodies. Just repeat this several times and a oom mage can be FoM in no time, especially with 61+ pets. Then you add in the AAs for Faster pet summoning (50% less) and componentless summoning and it just makes it even faster. The overall downside to this is the Mage must kill their pet in order to do it, which could hurt depending on how much equipment and buffs it has. However, if the Mage gets the Suspend Companion AA, they can just suspend their current pet and do their Pet Canni, then unsuspend it.

It's been around for quite a while, since Kunark I believe, when the pets became high enough in HP to give more mana back, and there's been nothing done to nerf it, only improve it. You have to remember that not having a pet for a mage is a huge cripple, a mage is very vulnerable while they're doing this. That and unless they have the Suspend Companion AA, they still need to summon the pet and buff it and give any items they may have to it. That's enough of a downside, IMO.


Really? At what higher lvl? And with what effects? Explain how we can regen mana by summoning pets and then reclaiming energy.

It involved having the right focus items. I think you needed a mana-saving focus. It reduced your cost to cast, but not the amount you got back from reclaiming, thus you ended up gaining mana after casting/reclaiming a pet.

You need a summoning efficiency item, to reduce the cost of casting the pet, and a horse/drogmar so you dont loose med time while casting. Reagent conservation is nice too.


http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3548

It almost certainly is an uber rare drop, and possibly doesn't even exist in the game. It seems SoE wants to cut down on mage pet canni. At 65, mages seem to either be using a general purpose preservation focus (such as preservation of xegony) or still canni'ing with the pre-60 pets. Sorry to disappoint all the mages looking for a better focus for pet canni.



This is THE BEST way to quantify pet canni I have ever found. Enjoy.

http://members.cox.net/jmattcrews/petcanni.xls

Just for arguement's sake, I am rocking an FT rating of 137 when I canni over a sustained period of time. In just a single casting, the FT rating is 173.8 The reason this sustained value is lower is due primarily to recast time.

FT 137. Yeehaw!

Atris has me smoked in this department tho. I think Atris is rocking FT 150, but I could be wrong. If Atris doesn't have quick summoning 2 yet, then her FT is only 118.


The XLS file link is dead but you can see from the discussion that the focus effects were what made pet canni work. Pet canni didn't exist until focus effects went in.


Change to Magicians ability prompts refund of AA points.
Hello Norrath,


In the next update, tentatively scheduled for December 18th, any Magicians who have used AA points to purchase Improved Reclaim Energy will have that ability removed and the AA points reimbursed. This comes as result of changes to the amount of mana returned, which previously allowed Magicians to regain more mana than they used in casting a pet.

Please be aware that if you have this AA you will be receiving a refund of those points and that you cannot save more than 30 points. So if your refund brings you over 30, you will need to spend them before you zone after the update.



Wait, here's the entire post:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,

I have received confirmation that this change is indeed going live. The
spell was not meant to return more mana than was spent casting the pet.

Sorry for the short notice on this. I will try to give more advance
warning on these sorts of changes in the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats got to be one of the worst posts I've seen made, this new guy
seems a complete ass.

We are shooting your grandmother in the head today.

Sorry about the short notice.


The 75% that it's currently sitting at is correct for the modern form, here's a citation

Changes the formula to Reclaim Energy to return 95% of the mana used to summon the pet. This considers all forms of mana preservation present on the mage at the time the pet is summoned. Normal Reclaim Energy is only 75%. This is most useful to mages that employ chain-summoning techniques for killing monsters.

Pet Cannibalization was a technique used to summon pets, and then reclaim them for more mana than they initially cost. As a result of the December 18, 2003 patch, this is no longer exists in the game, for all intents and purposes.


Mage Compendium Improved Reclaim Energy link from after AAs and before summoning efficiency items:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021123032453/http://www.magecompendium.com/
This ability improves the Magician's ability to regain energy from their pets when sending them away. Any time the Magician with this ability casts Reclaim Energy he will regain almost all of the Mana expended during the summoning of that pet.



I couldn't find a formula anywhere, but it would seem that it doesn't matter.

[Atern]

For what it's worth, I seem to remember that you got full mana back for reclaiming pets originally. It was later changed to be proportionate to the hp of the pet.

As for the OP, if there are no patch notes stating that the mage focus items were changed to be clickable from inventory by everyone, you have to assume that it was like that from original release.

[guineapig]

It is a fairly safe and logical assumption.

[Haynar]

With specialization checks, etc., all indications were that pet canni was useful only after getting the level 49 pets. It still worked before, and would return positive mana on some pets, but it was just not returning that much to make it super commonly used.

Running the pet stats, etc., it puts the return around 5% of the HP. At 10%, you would be doing really good after speciallization checks. I mean really good, and that is without any focus effects. So I will run some more numbers and do a bit more research, and just take my best guess.

Focus effects seem to be one of the important things, to make it really worth using. Worth using in the sense that you can overcome the loss of pet dps, and use canni to regain mana and nuke, for an overall improved dps.

Mana recovery after death, seemed to be addressed differently, in its benefits.

Haynar

[Gorroth]

Pet canni was only used with the earth pet, preferably the 50+ one. The other pets didn't have enough HP to make it worthwhile.

[dali_lb]

Do we have anything that says what % of hitpoints it should be? The current way it is, it will return level of pet * 4 mana. The only numbers I have seen anyone say are 10% of HPs. I am still looking at how good those numbers are. I am out of town at the moment, so my access is limited. Just any numbers on how much mana was returned from an earth pet, should give me the info what I need to extapolate the rest. If I remember right, the 49 earth pet takes 200 base mana to cast. How much mana should a full HP earth pet return?

Haynar

Not sure if it's any help. I just think i remember that pre kunark there were no gain for the mage to reclaim a pet that was serious injured .. eg if it was at 2-3% of its full health. you would hardly get the 5 mana back that reclaim energy cost to cast. The mana you got back from reclaim was indeed based on how much hp the pet had left. What the actual formula was, I'm not sure.

To mmiles8:

The reason Mages used the MS2 or any of the vocaration Earth pets, was that With kunark and velius it became able to get cosiderably more mana back than you used to summon the pet. Wether it was a "feature" or bug I'm not sure, but just the first Vocarate Earth was able to give you almost double the mana back, that you used on the summon, but as far as i recall there weren't really that big of a jump from a focussed (Staff of Elemental Mastery Earth) lvl 49 Earth pet and the 51 Vocarae Earth. the vocarate had slightly higher HP, but nothing really big. I remember being vastly disapointed with the upgrade from the the 49 pet. Greater Vocaration wasn't either a really big upgrade. So I don't believe the formula was based on the max hp of the pets.
For some reason it was just way more efficient on Kunark pets.

At that time i was mega farming Seafury cyclops'es, and the focussed 49 pet performed only slightly worse than a Vocaration pet. Both was able to tank 3 clopses without a problem. The biggest upgrade for Kunark was the reclaimed mana from the new pets and the the ability to kill 3 clopses in no time with sirocco or Manastorm

[mmiles8]

See Gorroth's post. Also, see your own post. Everything you said reinforced that it was based on Current HP, apart from the conclusion you reached. If it wasn't, mages would have used fire pets or water pets all the same.

If the value reclaimed was hard coded into the pet, there would have been no need for a sweeping change to reclaimed energy and its associated AA, when it got nerfed as an unintended bug.

-------

If Haynar or someone else can throw out the level 49-60 earth pet health pools (including MSII, and what focus effects increase them by), I could take the info from this post...

This is THE BEST way to quantify pet canni I have ever found. Enjoy.

http://members.cox.net/jmattcrews/petcanni.xls

Just for arguement's sake, I am rocking an FT rating of 137 when I canni over a sustained period of time. In just a single casting, the FT rating is 173.8 The reason this sustained value is lower is due primarily to recast time.

FT 137. Yeehaw!

Atris has me smoked in this department tho. I think Atris is rocking FT 150, but I could be wrong. If Atris doesn't have quick summoning 2 yet, then her FT is only 118.

... factor in the benefits given by summoning efficiency focus effect and improved reclaim energy AAs and give a handful of base HP to Mana equations to choose from.

[Gorroth]

Monthly bump.

Spending 2000-5000 mana to get a good pet sucks.

[Haynar]

Ugh. THought I had finished this one. I remember crunching some numbers, and writing some code.

Let me add this back to my list.

Haynar

[Gorroth]

Sorry to be a nuisance but I still can't use my shovel of ponz to reclaim my wolf pet as of this post. Any chance of it getting fixed? =/

[quellren]

This would be so awesome for Shaman. Few things frustrate me more than blowing a whole bar of mana summoning 3 crappy pets in a row, Cannibalizing my self for a 4th (or 5th) and when I finally get a decent pet, I'm at 20mana and 50% hp.

Ive actually lost camps because I wasn't ready to pull after chain casting pets and buffs and someone else invokes the 'Camps, Defined' thread and helps themselves to my claim as I sit there and watch.

[bizzum]

Wondering if this was ever changed before I go ahead and look to buy an item with Reclaim Energy for my Shaman.

[eriamjh]

Wondering if this was ever changed before I go ahead and look to buy an item with Reclaim Energy for my Shaman.

Umm.. I think not.

[bizzum]

Umm.. I think not.

Worthless post count +1. Looking for something that's actually definitive.

[Gorroth]

Thread is still relevant. Tested two different focus items (shovel and fire staff), neither worked.

Still not fixed, even though it's classic. *bump*

[Soandso]

I tried my broom today and the reclaim energy works with my wolf pet :)