If you are Christian and are in the military , will you go to heaven if you kill ?

[visage]

If you are in the military and are Christian, will you go to heaven if you kill somebody? Does it justify being okay because " You were just doing a job"?

[Rellapse19]

yeap

[Barkingturtle]

Depends if gay.

[Rellapse19]

Depends if gay.

tru forgot there are gays in the army now

[visage]

tru forgot there are gays in the army now


So if a man kills another man and he is gay isn't that the same as a man killing a woman?

[Rellapse19]

yea basically

[JurisDictum]

No. Because heven doesn't exist.

[Rellapse19]

No. Because heven doesn't exist.

WRONG

[Reapin]

Heaven is in a womans pants.

[Barkingturtle]

Heaven is in a womans pants.

They don't make your butt look big?

[Hex]

Heaven / Hell would have to exist wouldn't they?

[r00t]

the bible allows for war, it is not murder

[Reapin]

the bible allows for war, it is not murder

Oh, so I can bash babies against rocks for fun? Good to know.

[r00t]

no, abortion and rock bashing babies is strictly forbidden

[Kagatob]

rock bashing babies

Cannot unsee giant baby smashing armies with rocks.

[Reapin]

Cannot unsee giant baby smashing armies with rocks.


Not according to GOD

Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalms 137:8-9)

[r00t]

that's not "for fun"

[Reapin]

It was about revenge. When isn't revenge fun?

[Ahldagor]

lulz arguing justice by eye for an eye

[Faerie]

On a serious note, most denominations of Christianty believe that if a person has accepted Jesus' suffering into their heart and soul, they are allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus died for your sins, past and present. Murder is a sin, but He died to absolve you of the consequences (not that it makes them okay).

I really thought that everyone knew this?

[Autotune]

On a serious note, most denominations of Christianty believe that if a person has accepted Jesus' suffering into their heart and soul, they are allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus died for your sins, past and present. Murder is a sin, but He died to absolve you of the consequences (not that it makes them okay).

I really thought that everyone knew this?

HALL PASS BITCHES!

[Ahldagor]

On a serious note, most denominations of Christianty believe that if a person has accepted Jesus' suffering into their heart and soul, they are allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus died for your sins, past and present. Murder is a sin, but He died to absolve you of the consequences (not that it makes them okay).

I really thought that everyone knew this?

that's the major overbearing issue with religion, redemption. the shift is a shifted view of justice that currently eliminates responsibility in a spiritual sense due to the "sacrifice" that jesus made for humanity. if he knew he was going to die and still went through with it then wouldn't that be suicide? but we all know suicide is excused by abrahams god if it's for a just cause, right?

[moklianne]

Just do penance and all is good. Or a priest do last rites on your death bed. Just make sure you don't die before and after you wiped out a town of supposed terrorists that turned out not to be.

[r00t]

John 19:34 indicates that Jesus died of a "broken heart"

Jesus is the way, the life, and the spirit. He didn't commit suicide, because he is immortal. Hence how he rose the 3rd day and his Kingdom shall have no end

[Ahldagor]

Just do penance and all is good. Or a priest do last rites on your death bed. Just make sure you don't die before and after you wiped out a town of supposed terrorists that turned out not to be.

that's catholics only tho

[Ahldagor]

John 19:34 indicates that Jesus died of a "broken heart"

Jesus is the way, the life, and the spirit. He didn't commit suicide, because he is immortal. Hence how he rose the 3rd day and his Kingdom shall have no end

john 3:26

for god so loved the earth that he gave his only son, blah blah blah

he was sacrificed, knew he would be, and continued without defying god cause that'd be a bid no no. not to mention the over arching implication of abraham and isaac, but god can go through with it because it's god and only god gets to commit fillicide

[Ahldagor]

3:16 me thinks be right

[r00t]

so theoretically he was murdered by God, and the paradox is that Jesus Is God

[Ahldagor]

so theoretically he was murdered by God, and the paradox is that Jesus Is God

trinity man. jesus is jesus, god is god, and the holy spirit is separate yet binds them both and is in humans. it was a suicide and a murder at the same time because it's god man.

[r00t]

I think even in the end it was't suicide. The Jews had free will to do the evil that they did.

[Ahldagor]

I think even in the end it was't suicide. The Jews had free will to do the evil that they did.

jews killed no one. the law was enacted by the romans who governed the jews, jesus too btw, and jesus broke the law. crucifying criminals was meant to be a terrible punishment and jesus knew what was in store for him, and he continued on his way. also there's no free will in a god created universe, it's entirely determined.

[r00t]

hey man

Originally Posted by Michio Kaku, 2011
Well, hey, get used to it. Einstein was wrong. God does play dice.

[moklianne]

that's catholics only tho

True, but that covers a good amount of Christians. There are about 1 billion Catholics in the world. 1 in 7 or 8 people world wide?

[Ahldagor]

hey man

Originally Posted by Michio Kaku, 2011
Well, hey, get used to it. Einstein was wrong. God does play dice.

that the japanese physicist that puts his picture on everything and goes on every show he can?

[r00t]

yea man I dont like that guy he's a liar

[Ahldagor]

True, but that covers a good amount of Christians. There are about 1 billion Catholics in the world. 1 in 7 or 8 people world wide?

1.2 billion atm. still a silly get out of jail free card.

[Ahldagor]

yea man I dont like that guy he's a liar

he knows his stuff, but i don't think he's done actual research in over a decade. he just keeps up with articles and writes books on what the future will be like. he wants the fame and not the work. tyson on the other hand works with his fame to institute educational ventures.

[mtb tripper]

Predestination is true, God knows every choice you will make

[Mandalore93]

On a serious note, most denominations of Christianty believe that if a person has accepted Jesus' suffering into their heart and soul, they are allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus died for your sins, past and present. Murder is a sin, but He died to absolve you of the consequences (not that it makes them okay).

I really thought that everyone knew this?

This post made me laugh.

[Hasbinbad]

Predestination is true
Prove it.

[Ahldagor]

Prove it.

Predestination is true, God knows every choice you will make

the proof of the thought is inherent within that system of thought. nit picked the clause just like they nit pick leviticus.

[Faerie]

This post made me laugh.

Why?

[moklianne]

1.2 billion atm. still a silly get out of jail free card.

I don't disagree with you and one of the reasons I gave up Catholicism when I was a teenager. It just seemed like a load of bull shit to me (among other things). Be evil your entire life, talk to a priest before you die and welcome to heaven.

[stormlord]

"Have you ever killed anyone?" - Harry's wife
"Yeah, but they were all bad." – Harry in "True Lies"

[Ryba]

why bother debating semantics of the world's least creative mythology? Might as well argue about the EQ pantheon.

This thread is now about which EQ god would most likely be "gay for pay." My vote is Vallon Zek because of his overbearing father and because he could just blow a mirror image of himself and rationalize it by claiming it was masturbation.

Discuss.

[r00t]

prexus, because thats who the most flamingly gay person on the box, yiblaan, worships ieq & irl

[Ahldagor]

I don't disagree with you and one of the reasons I gave up Catholicism when I was a teenager. It just seemed like a load of bull shit to me (among other things). Be evil your entire life, talk to a priest before you die and welcome to heaven.

aye. but that was the shift for redemption as an element of justice. gotta get it from a priest/church and not from your own hands and determination like in the hebrew bible/talmud/old testament. forgive all because god forgives...what about sodom? lot's wife? cain? etc

[r00t]

those were pre-jesus. its the new covenant

[Tasslehofp99]

TLDR -- Gods fake, good story though.

[Joroz]

sure... until recently killing others has been a major part in converting people to religions, mostly killing non believers but who's to say other reasons can't fit into a religion's acceptable things to do list allowing you to get into a "super awesome place" when you die.

[r00t]

Everything we know is voided.

Jesus wasn't a God. He was a hybrid human/divine, thus making him a demi God

[moklianne]

sure... until recently killing others has been a major part in converting people to religions, mostly killing non believers but who's to say other reasons can't fit into a religion's acceptable things to do list allowing you to get into a "super awesome place" when you die.

Sometimes you have to kill the body to save the soul?

[moklianne]

Everything we know is voided.

Jesus wasn't a God. He was a hybrid human/divine, thus making him a demi God

Jesus was a human/alien hybrid from the Pleiades system, didn't you get the memo? The prime directive in Star Trek has some merit.

[r00t]

http://i.imgur.com/Uz67Qjo.gif

[myriverse]

Doesn't matter what you are. You're going to worm bellies.

[Reapin]

Doesn't matter what you are. You're going to worm bellies.

Jesus is the worst God.

No phat lewtz

[Mandalore93]

Why?

Because you contradicted yourself in the span of six words.

[Faerie]

Because you contradicted yourself in the span of six words.

Do tell.

[Mandalore93]

Because if murder isn't alright, how were they awarded eternal bliss? Your confirmation bias is pretty explicitly spelled out in your post. It's ok for God to forgive murderers and rapists simply because he's God. Do you think he allows murder and rape in heaven? Or is it only allowed on earth?

[Kagatob]

Lol @ defining 'god'

[Hailto]

People believing in heaven and hell in 2013, l0l.

[Faerie]

Because if murder isn't alright, how were they awarded eternal bliss? Your confirmation bias is pretty explicitly spelled out in your post. It's ok for God to forgive murderers and rapists simply because he's God. Do you think he allows murder and rape in heaven? Or is it only allowed on earth?

I never said that murder would prevent a person from attaining heaven. While our earthly sins do take us further from God, they are only a part of what Jesus died for. You're familiar with the "fall from grace" myths, right? The Christian version being that our descendants ate of the Tree of Knowledge (of Good and Evil), and were cast out of the Garden of Eden.

It's that "knowledge" that Jesus wants to free us of. And I feel that knowledge is a bad word to use to describe it these days, because what it really is happens to be a way of thinking; not knowledge itself. This is all of course just my own personal belief, but what the "Knowledge of Good and Evil" means to me is that we began to see abstract things in a more clearly defined manner, which is a spiritual falsity.

"Good and Evil"
"Life and Death"
"Shame and Honor"
"Love and Hate"
"Heaven and Hell"

On and on it goes, until you get to things like God, and Sin. That these things, or indeed anything, is truly separate from any other thing, is the illusion that the majority (perhaps all) of humanity live under, and that is what Jesus has come to free us from. "Eternal bliss" isn't literal bliss (though it's hard to make the distinction), it's an understanding that suffering and bliss are two pieces to the same whole. Heaven isn't a literal place our souls travel to in the afterlife, it's a state of being our souls ascend to.

And yes, God "forgives" us for murder, just as He "forgives" us for the improper (for lack of a better word) way of thinking we have, which would be the bigger sin if sin could be measured. Sin is something we're all born into, and many of us struggle our entire lives against the sins of what may seem like human nature. You're thinking strictly in earthly terms, which is understandable because that's probably all you've been taught to know. But when you're talking about God, you can't try to put Him into earthly terms.

Lol @ defining 'god'

True that. I think it's blasphemous to even use the word "God", because that's making a futile attempt at defining "God", and thus takes us further away from "God". God is something you have to feel in your soul, not define (and blur) with human language.

[Hailto]

How did i know that Faerie would be a religious nutter.

[Hailto]

You should reconsider your time spent playing everquest, God frowns upon the use of magic and witchcraft.

[Faerie]

I'm not Christian, but I appreciate their beliefs.

[Hailto]

Wiccan then? Earth mother protect us and guide us.

[Faerie]

I'm pantheistic :P

[Hailto]

Intredasting

[r00t]

Faerie i want to get you right with god before it's too late my friend you deserve to see the kingdom of heaven

[Mandalore93]

Hippies. The idea of poetic justice is such a nice thing to tell three year olds, but once you hit 5 it's about time to start accepting that life is cruel. Only through hard work, intelligence, and a good bit of luck can we get ahead of the curve.

[Servellious]

you kill then say your really really sorry and that you love jesus and you are forgiven. May or may not have to do a bit of time in purgatory. then into the white gates you go, having a beer with the guy you killed, unless he was Muslim.

[Faerie]

Faerie i want to get you right with god before it's too late my friend you deserve to see the kingdom of heaven

Thou art God :)

[visage]

God is so mighty... yet humans think they would be able to comprehend such a force. Rationalizing their lives. I never hated a one true god , just the god of the people I hated.

[Faerie]

Hatred is a waste of time.

[JurisDictum]

I'm not Christian, but I appreciate their beliefs.

...Why? Have you ever actually read the bible without someone in a funny hat revising and fabricating every passage? Page after page of sanctioned rape, slavery, and murder for God's chosen people.
The laws laid out are primitive and nonsensical. Things like being gay, working on sunday, and committing adultery are sentenced to death by stoning. However, if you are caught raping someone's daughter, the punishment is to wed the woman.
Both old testament and new put believing in God as the most important thing anyone can do, above their family and community. Someone who doesn't believe in Christ roasts forever in the lowest circle of hell. Compared someone like Jeffery Dahmer who was "saved" and thus, goes to heaven.
Meanwhile, there is no logical foundation to believe any of this. The confusion wrought by Christianity causes boozoos to get elected, undeserving people to be persecuted, and science to be delayed. It has been nothing but a scourge on human thought since the middle ages.

[r00t]

^wrong on all accounts

[Kagatob]

correct on all accounts

FTFY

[r00t]

thanks but no thanks pedophiles dont speak for me

[Kagatob]

Who's a pedophile?

[Faerie]

...Why? Have you ever actually read the bible without someone in a funny hat revising and fabricating every passage? Page after page of sanctioned rape, slavery, and murder for God's chosen people.
The laws laid out are primitive and nonsensical. Things like being gay, working on sunday, and committing adultery are sentenced to death by stoning. However, if you are caught raping someone's daughter, the punishment is to wed the woman.
Both old testament and new put believing in God as the most important thing anyone can do, above their family and community. Someone who doesn't believe in Christ roasts forever in the lowest circle of hell. Compared someone like Jeffery Dahmer who was "saved" and thus, goes to heaven.
Meanwhile, there is no logical foundation to believe any of this. The confusion wrought by Christianity causes boozoos to get elected, undeserving people to be persecuted, and science to be delayed. It has been nothing but a scourge on human thought since the middle ages.

Why are your pastors wearing funny hats? I'll respond later, way tired now. But you seem almost bitter about this, and that's no good.

[Kagatob]

Why are your pastors wearing funny hats? I'll respond later, way tired now. But you seem almost bitter about this, and that's no good.

I won't speak for the poster that you quoted however as someone who agrees with the sentiment of said poster it's not about being bitter, it's about being realistic. It's a pity that lack of unnecessary sugarcoating is equated so often with bitterness.

Anyone with half a brain is sick and tired of hearing the "there's good Christians out there and you know it" arguments, the number of terrible hypocrites who hide behind the cross and their selfish prayers vastly outnumbers any human beings who happen to be decent despite their affiliation with an Abrahamic religion.

[NachtMystium]

Christianity is *purely* a tool. Used by people in power. So many of it's foundations are stolen / Imitated by past religious sects.
I'm not going to claim that my belief is absolute, but I will acknowledge facts over my own and any other's own upbringing and bias "truths".

[t0lkien]

Not to further meaningless and pointless debate around this, except to say the OP's question belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel. That's all I'm gonna say.

[mtb tripper]

Prove it.

Well wait till you die and you can ask Him to prove it

[Reapin]

Not to further meaningless and pointless debate around this, except to say the OP's question belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel. That's all I'm gonna say.

Christianity is a blood lusting death cult. They condone killing more than any other religion. It is the worship of violence and death.

[t0lkien]

Christianity is a blood lusting death cult. They condone killing more than any other religion. It is the worship of violence and death.

That's nonsense, and you need to read the New Testament if you haven't - especially if you're going to hold opinions on what it says. But meh, whatevez I say. Believe what you like, but do it intelligently.

[stonez138]

^wrong on all accounts

Has clearly never read the bible. Put down the tracts man.

[stonez138]

thanks but no thanks pedophiles dont speak for me

But your God has no problem with pedophiles. The "righteous" Lot had sex and children with his own daughters.

[Reapin]

That's nonsense, and you need to read the New Testament if you haven't - especially if you're going to hold opinions on what it says. But meh, whatevez I say. Believe what you like, but do it intelligently.

Name another religion whose rituals involve bowing before a symbol of torture and cannibalism.

Your imaginary friend Jesus claimed to be god. Which god? Mithra? Zeus? Apollo? Ra? No, he claimed to be the god of the old testament in human form on earth. You cannot separate the two unless you are suggesting Jesus was a liar or a mental case. But neither is true since he did not exist.

[Reapin]

And thank you for giving me permission to not believe the ramblings of goat herders from 2000 years ago.

[r00t]

Has clearly never read the bible. Put down the tracts man.

No, that guy has clearly never read the bible. The Bible doesn't condone everything it doesn't speak out against directly

But your God has no problem with pedophiles. The "righteous" Lot had sex and children with his own daughters.

maybe you should try actually reading your bible more... all sex outside of marriage is wrong

[Ephirith]

OP's question belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel.

Or in other words, you've got a bevy of selective interpretations and metaphors you can twist around to make the gospel say what you want it to. Lutheran, Calvinist, Adventist, Baptist, Orthodox, Anglican... pick an understanding! They all misunderstand the gospel according to a Catholic.

[stonez138]

No, that guy has clearly never read the bible. The Bible doesn't condone everything it doesn't speak out against directly

Throughout the vast majority of the Bible God condones, no, He DEMANDS murder, rape, infanticide, racism, homophobia and straight up genocide.

It's laughable to me how christians just brush this all aside with a simple, "Oh, we're under a new covenant now" even when thier own Bible says OVER AND OVER that God is unchanging.

[Daldolma]

y'all need to let jesus in, that much is apparent

[Reapin]

y'all need to let jesus in, that much is apparent

Go fuck yourself.

[Daldolma]

will pray 4 u

[Kagatob]

will pray 4 u

Go fuck yourself.

[r00t]

we're not jews, theres a new covenent

[stonez138]

I'll stick to Greek Mythology. It's more believable. I mean we all know the Jesus myth was just a blatant rip off of the Dionysus myth right?

[t0lkien]

Go fuck yourself.

There are no personal issues at work here....

[t0lkien]

Or in other words, you've got a bevy of selective interpretations and metaphors you can twist around to make the gospel say what you want it to. Lutheran, Calvinist, Adventist, Baptist, Orthodox, Anglican... pick an understanding! They all misunderstand the gospel according to a Catholic.

The absolute best thing you can do is forget about all the guff and just read it. It's not as complicated as all this secondhand knowledge and discussion makes out. The first time I read it for myself I was amazed at how much I had been mislead by others as to what it actually said.

The first lesson of the Renaissance was to go to primary sources, yet so few actually do it even today. I say the same about the Koran BTW - everyone should read it so they know what it is they are arguing about.

[t0lkien]

The absolute best thing you can do is forget about all that guff and just read it. Many people were burned alive just so you have that right. It's not as complicated as all this secondhand knowledge and discussion makes out. The first time I read it for myself I was amazed at how much I had been mislead by others as to what it actually said.

The first lesson of the Renaissance was to go to primary sources, yet so few actually do it even today. I say the same about the Koran BTW - everyone should read it so they know what it is they are arguing about.

[t0lkien]

Sorry for the double post. The forum has bugged on me and now I can't edit anything either... just ignore the second post.

[stonez138]

The first time I read it for myself I was amazed at how much I had been mislead by others as to what it actually said.

Have you read the book of Joshua? Just in that book alone many thousands of men, women and children are put to death by Joshua on orders from God. If you claim otherwise then YOU are the one guilty of being misleading.

Or how about Elijah. He was pretty bad ass bringing fire from the sky to murder 1000 priests of Baal or when he burns alive the hundreds of soldiers for no other reason then to prove he is a man of god? Am I being misleading?

[Kagatob]

I'll stick to Greek Mythology. It's more believable. I mean we all know the Jesus myth was just a blatant rip off of the Dionysus myth right?
My knowledge of Dionysus is limited so I can neither confirm or deny it however the story of Jesus is based off of Gilgamesh through and through whom predates Dionysus as well so both Myths are likely based off of the Legend of Gilgamesh.
The absolute best thing you can do is forget about all the guff and just read it. It's not as complicated as all this secondhand knowledge and discussion makes out. The first time I read it for myself I was amazed at how much I had been mislead by others as to what it actually said.
Having read both the Torah and the New Testament on two separate occasions I'd like to request you clarify this statement. Are you trying to imply that the books don't promote violence/slavery/etc.? Or are you saying that they do regardless of interpretation because it's just plainly there. We agree if you meant the latter.
The first lesson of the Renaissance was to go to primary sources, yet so few actually do it even today. I say the same about the Koran BTW - everyone should read it so they know what it is they are arguing about.

Really? If you are going to go on about primary sources at least spell Quran correctly.

[stonez138]

My knowledge of Dionysus is limited so I can neither confirm or deny it however the story of Jesus is based off of Gilgamesh through and through whom predates Dionysus as well so both Myths are likely based off of the Legend of Gilgamesh.

QFT!
We owe it all to the Sumerians.

[stonez138]

I tried reading The Quran but it was too boring. Maybe I didn't get into far enough but it had none of the sex or violence I found so abundant in the bible.

[t0lkien]

My knowledge of Dionysus is limited so I can neither confirm or deny it however the story of Jesus is based off of Gilgamesh through and through whom predates Dionysus as well so both Myths are likely based off of the Legend of Gilgamesh.

Having read both the Torah and the New Testament on two separate occasions I'd like to request you clarify this statement. Are you trying to imply that the books don't promote violence/slavery/etc.? Or are you saying that they do regardless of interpretation because it's just plainly there. We agree if you meant the latter.


Really? If you are going to go on about primary sources at least spell Quran correctly.

Re. Koran, seriously? It's the English rendering, as you well know. Cheap tactics man.

On the other points - and as I'm sure you are aware also - they have been addressed and answered thousands of times on the internet. If you're seriously looking for truth and not just an argument, you'd already know this. The Old Testament was law, the New Testament is the answer to it, and fulfillment of it. I'm not denying this is a big discussion, but firing cheap shots across the bow doesn't win your side any points (except perhaps on Reddit and forums such as this).

But meh... no-one is going to be convinced of anything on a forum where people come to argue. My point was the OP's question telegraphs a fundamental non-understanding of what the gospel is as outlined in the New Testament. We aren't saved by our own actions or inactions; we are saved by what Jesus did for us and our faith in him (within the context of the Bible, it's irrelevant what anyone things about that in regards to the truth of it - this is the message of the Bible, so when you talk about Christianity as the OP has, then this is the context within which the discussion is being held).

That's my only point.

[Kagatob]

QFT!
We owe it all to the Sumerians.

Gilgamesh was a better story too, he was 2/3 god because gods can do whatever the fuck they want.

A good chunk of the stories in both bibles are based upon the Sumerian texts anyway. Gilgamesh did it all, he conquered all threats and lead the people (borrowed by Christians/Jews almost word for word in the stories of King David).
He survived the great deluge with a massive boat and helped with re-population (flood later borrowed for Noah's story).
Of course there's also Jesus who's entire biography was a dumbed down ripoff of Gilgamesh's life (Though he showed humility by only being 'half' god :p ).

There's a bunch more too including but not limited to Genesis, the idea of a sacred trinity, and which days of the year are considered holy.

[Hasbinbad]

Christianity is a blood lusting death cult. They condone killing more than any other religion. It is the worship of violence and death.
Not such a far fetched idea after all, eh?

Give me the wine, I don't need bread.

[t0lkien]

Have you read the book of Joshua? Just in that book alone many thousands of men, women and children are put to death by Joshua on orders from God. If you claim otherwise then YOU are the one guilty of being misleading.

Or how about Elijah. He was pretty bad ass bringing fire from the sky to murder 1000 priests of Baal or when he burns alive the hundreds of soldiers for no other reason then to prove he is a man of god? Am I being misleading?

I know I'm going to regret this, but:

Re. Joshua, it was war. The city was evil yadda yadda. There are several other instances in the OT where God commanded the Israelites to wipe out an evil settlement/city (often who had been trying to wipe them out). Would you take out Hitler if you met him as a child? No, because you don't have perfect vision, yet people have argued for it ethically. God (if he is there) does and did have complete foresight and knowledge. These were isolated instances, not general ethics i.e. it's not the same as saying to kill all Jews at all times (and those who refuse to "believe" and convert, by the way) as the Koran does. Would you take down someone who was threatening your family if that was the only recourse? I would, yet I don't subscribe to hurting anyone in any way.

That's an incomplete answer to a much larger discussion, I realize. If you want more complete responses, Google is your friend. It's not like this is a novel question that hasn't been raised and debated before. I'm not hoping to convince you or anyone else. I just don't want a lack of response to imply reluctance to discuss it. I already know it's not going to achieve anything.

Re. Elijah, you might want to read the story again, or read it if you haven't. The priests challenged Elijah to a "battle" to the death. If he lost, he was going to be killed by them. Those soldiers were coming to kill/imprison Elijah, hello? He spared the ones whose leader spoke with him directly and didn't attack him.

God is not a hippy, or Oprah. The same love that spared us nailed Jesus to the cross to pay for our crap. You won't understand God's definition of love (and justice) until you understand that. Half the issue with these "modern" assertions and attacks is the incomplete and flawed context they come from.

Anyway, peace out. We aren't going to convince each other of anything.

[JurisDictum]

I know I'm going to regret this, but:

Re. Joshua, it was war. The city was evil yadda yadda. There are several other instances in the OT where God commanded the Israelites to wipe out an evil settlement/city (often who had been trying to wipe them out). Would you take out Hitler if you met him as a child? No, because you don't have perfect vision, yet people have argued for it ethically. God (if he is there) does and did have complete foresight and knowledge. These were isolated instances, not general ethics i.e. it's not the same as saying to kill all Jews at all times (and those who refuse to "believe" and convert, by the way) as the Koran does. Would you take down someone who was threatening your family if that was the only recourse? I would, yet I don't subscribe to hurting anyone in any way.

That's an incomplete answer to a much larger discussion, I realize. If you want more complete responses, Google is your friend. It's not like this is a novel question that hasn't been raised and debated before. I'm not hoping to convince you or anyone else. I just don't want a lack of response to imply reluctance to discuss it. I already know it's not going to achieve anything.

Re. Elijah, you might want to read the story again, or read it if you haven't. The priests challenged Elijah to a "battle" to the death. If he lost, he was going to be killed by them. Those soldiers were coming to kill/imprison Elijah, hello? He spared the ones whose leader spoke with him directly and didn't attack him.

God is not a hippy, or Oprah. The same love that spared us nailed Jesus to the cross to pay for our crap. You won't understand God's definition of love (and justice) until you understand that. Half the issue with these "modern" assertions and attacks is the incomplete and flawed context they come from.

Anyway, peace out. We aren't going to convince each other of anything.
It's good to hear someone taking up the pro killing children side of the argument. God knows, we don't, so it's perfectly moral for him to command the killing of as many kids as he sees fit. Kids he created mind you. Sounds like a perfect moral entity to me.
What's hilarious to me, Is you come here with some jaded attitude about primary sources. But when people discuss the bible directly and point out "hey none of that shit is remotely moral at all," You start with this tap dance about how it could someone be moral to demand the murder of innocents.
It isn't moral to kill kids now. It wasn't moral to kill kids then. This is not the kind of behavior you would expect from a perfect being. It is however, the kind of behavior you expect from a bronze age God of primitive desert dwellers.
The way God dolls out punishment is not moral. The believe that these people deserved what the got is not a respectable position to take. So while a respect many Christian people, I refuse to accept their repugnant stance of biblical morality.

[Daldolma]

shut up

[Mandalore93]

Hey, with silver only being about 19 dollars an ounce, with Biblical law you can get a brand spanking new wife for about 15-20 minutes of rape (depending on stamina/blood curdling screaming of victim) and $5000! Praise Jesus!

[Sollix]

http://cafewitteveen.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/wk2jv.png

[Hasbinbad]

The absolute best thing you can do is forget about all the guff and just read it. It's not as complicated as all this secondhand knowledge and discussion makes out.
The amount of idiocy on these forums never ceases to astound me.

Without context, the bible is a completely different book than if you explain things in terms of history.

Jesus H. Christ man, if what you're saying is true, then priests and preachers should all be out of jobs. Coz like .. that's what they do. Explain the bible (which the flock has already read) in terms of what was going on and how those lessons can be applied.

I don't mean to play the Reynes of Castamere at your little wedding party, but The Church would like to have a word with you.

[Ahldagor]

The amount of idiocy on these forums never ceases to astound me.

Without context, the bible is a completely different book than if you explain things in terms of history.

Jesus H. Christ man, if what you're saying is true, then priests and preachers should all be out of jobs. Coz like .. that's what they do. Explain the bible (which the flock usually hasn't read because they're lazy) in terms of what was going on and how those lessons can be applied.

I don't mean to play the Reynes of Castamere at your little wedding party, but The Church would like to have a word with you.

ftfy

[myriverse]

Jesus H. Christ man, if what you're saying is true, then priests and preachers should all be out of jobs.
Guess he's right then... because they should be.

[Joroz]

It's not as complicated as all this secondhand knowledge and discussion makes out. Ever play the game of telephone? How many people do you think the recorded stories went through before they got written down, not to mention re-translated?

[Faerie]

http://cafewitteveen.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/wk2jv.png

This is a wonderful quote, and it may very well be true. But it seems completely silly to me for anyone to believe we've grown past the darkness Heine was describing. I don't know why, but I'm reminded of an encounter I had with a doctor of mine, last summer.

I'd gone to see her, and we were making small talk. Somehow the topic of The Dark Knight came up, and I told her that it was excellent and she really ought to see it in theaters while she had the chance.

"Weren't you scared?"

"Scared? Of the movie? No, it wasn't really a scary movie..."

"No, I mean, because of the shooting."

Living in the Colorado area, she was the first person I'd actually encountered that was frightened of seeing the movie because of that crazy guy. The weight of that sadness hit me hard, as I realized just how frightened we are of ourselves. I just can't bring myself to believe that we're living in daylight, when there's so much darkness within myself and everyone around me.

"If we took no chances, life wouldn't really be worth living."

The rape, murder, hypocrisy and condemnation of beautiful things found in the Bible never phased me. Religion is humanity struggling its hardest to understand and experience itself; and violence is a language we all speak. It's fine with me if some people want to refer to the Bible as firewood because, "there's rape in this book!" like an enraged soccermom after finding a copy of Lolita in her kid's backpack, but I treasure mine. Religious texts honestly cannot (imo) be strictly interpreted literally, because then you'll find that it has very little actual meaning. Instead of seeing the advocacy of rape and deciding that an entire religion is insane, I think it would be much more prudent to make efforts toward understanding what the cultural and historical significance of the passage might be, and then take that even further by trying to understand what the figurative meaning of the passage might be in the context of the aforementioned culture and time period.

During the time the Bible was written, women were far from being considered people. Even during the middle ages, some scientists were unsure if women and men were even of the same species. That's how it was, and rape did happen. In many societies, rape truly was a advocated and considered normal. It happened, and it can't be undone, so there's not much to do about it besides understanding and accepting.

And the Bible was divinely inspired, not written by God Himself. How else is God going to be expressed by man of the time period, if not through figurative language that the people understand? You've also got to expect some loss of divinity, as God is translated into rape and murder. I think this is expressed eloquently in the story of Moses, and the Lost Commandments. Does it make the Bible any less true? Not in my mind :)

[JurisDictum]

This is a wonderful quote, and it may very well be true. But it seems completely silly to me for anyone to believe we've grown past the darkness Heine was describing. I don't know why, but I'm reminded of an encounter I had with a doctor of mine, last summer.

I'd gone to see her, and we were making small talk. Somehow the topic of The Dark Knight came up, and I told her that it was excellent and she really ought to see it in theaters while she had the chance.

"Weren't you scared?"

"Scared? Of the movie? No, it wasn't really a scary movie..."

"No, I mean, because of the shooting."

Living in the Colorado area, she was the first person I'd actually encountered that was frightened of seeing the movie because of that crazy guy. The weight of that sadness hit me hard, as I realized just how frightened we are of ourselves. I just can't bring myself to believe that we're living in daylight, when there's so much darkness within myself and everyone around me.

"If we took no chances, life wouldn't really be worth living."

The rape, murder, hypocrisy and condemnation of beautiful things found in the Bible never phased me. Religion is humanity struggling its hardest to understand and experience itself; and violence is a language we all speak. It's fine with me if some people want to refer to the Bible as firewood because, "there's rape in this book!" like an enraged soccermom after finding a copy of Lolita in her kid's backpack, but I treasure mine. Religious texts honestly cannot (imo) be strictly interpreted literally, because then you'll find that it has very little actual meaning. Instead of seeing the advocacy of rape and deciding that an entire religion is insane, I think it would be much more prudent to make efforts toward understanding what the cultural and historical significance of the passage might be, and then take that even further by trying to understand what the figurative meaning of the passage might be in the context of the aforementioned culture and time period.

During the time the Bible was written, women were far from being considered people. Even during the middle ages, some scientists were unsure if women and men were even of the same species. That's how it was, and rape did happen. In many societies, rape truly was a advocated and considered normal. It happened, and it can't be undone, so there's not much to do about it besides understanding and accepting.

And the Bible was divinely inspired, not written by God Himself. How else is God going to be expressed by man of the time period, if not through figurative language that the people understand? You've also got to expect some loss of divinity, as God is translated into rape and murder. I think this is expressed eloquently in the story of Moses, and the Lost Commandments. Does it make the Bible any less true? Not in my mind :)

I'm sure this all goes over well in whatever drum circle you spend your time with and all... but you didn't in anyway outline why we all benefit from Christianity or appreciate the beliefs of modern Christians. Nor did you fully acknowledge that Christian beliefs have demonstrably negative impacts on other people's lives.
I've yet to hear critics of religion claim that the bible doesn't have historical and cultural significance. I'm sure most skeptics will agree with me that study of the bible and biblical beliefs are great if done in a secular and objective way. This is a far cry from actually believing that the Bible comes from God, and provides good moral instruction.
I wouldn't want the text of Mein Kampf and burned either. It does have great historical and cultural significance, and describes a pioneering political theory. Nevertheless, if someone told me they appreciate the beliefs articulated in Mein Kampf I might just inquire as to why the hell they would say that. Maybe they would come back at me with something along the lines of "I'm a reformed Nazi. We don't believe in all that rounding up and killing the Jews stuff, we are more about getting together and celebrating being good people regardless of race or gender."
To me, what is actually written in the bible does matter. Because that's all the bible is at the end of the day, a book. And considering there is absolutely no reason anyone should find the book credible to begin with, it disturbing people base their life and thinking around it.
So I occasionally remind people that the book they hold up as the pinnacle of morality, is full of immoral instruction. The goal is to get them to channel whatever critical thinking abilities they have, toward their unjustified beliefs. Because it is important for humans to use their reasoning abilities when it comes to matters of morality and values. Blindly deferring to authorities is an extremely detrimental behavior to human progress. We know this because of books like the Bible and Mein Kampf.

[Faerie]

I'll try to respond tomorrow when I've hopefully had some sleep, but for now I'd just like to say that Mein Kampf was really poorly written, and was more a symbol than a great piece of literature.

Not what you were talking about I know, but it seemed relevant lol.

[Faerie]

Also, lol at:

I'm sure this all goes over well in whatever drum circle you spend your time with and all...

from bluebie :P

[visage]

Depending on where in the world this would happen..... If some dude all of a sudden started saying he was the son of god.... he would be killed, ridiculed, and/or put into an insane asylum. The majority wouldn't believe him. Why the fuck do people believe in this shit from word of mouth... fuck lets play the telephone game while were at it. If god was real and had any pity he would exterminate the human race.

[visage]

Show me a perfect man. I will show you god< good luck Jesus was far from perfect

[visage]

If man is not perfect. That means anything they created is too. The includes the bible, oh and god...

[Daldolma]

lot of ppl in this thread bound for eternal hellfire

[Olacaten]

The bible says u must follow the laws of the lands. figure that out.

[Joroz]

lot of ppl in this thread bound for eternal hellfire

right, because extreme punishment for not believing something doesn't sound like using fear to get people to believe in unbelievable stories.

[Daldolma]

you should be afraid

[Faerie]

I'm sure this all goes over well in whatever drum circle you spend your time with and all... but you didn't in anyway outline why we all benefit from Christianity or appreciate the beliefs of modern Christians. Nor did you fully acknowledge that Christian beliefs have demonstrably negative impacts on other people's lives.

We benefit from Christianity for the same reasons we benefit from any mythology: it's a path to "salvation". Salvation in the Christian sense means accepting yourself and others for their human faults, and accepting that God made the decision to suffer for your sins in order to let you back into the Kingdom. It's like being accepted back into the Garden of Eden after experiencing enough of existence without it to comprehend what you (humanity as a whole) did wrong, and why life is so much better with God.

Salvation according to my personal belief will be something akin to absolute contentedness, once I've trained my mind and experienced my soul enough to "overcome", or completely comprehend human fault and human greatness, to the point where I can feel the Awesome truths of existence in my heart without letting my head get in the way.

That probably sounds like meaningless blather to you, and that's okay. It's difficult to explain these things, both because I'm bad with words and because language is always a barrier when it comes to expressing the mythos. Here's one way to think of things:

There are two kinds of truth in this universe; those of logos (logic, order; clearly defined rights and wrongs) and mythos (myth, chaos; great mysteries of the universe). Myth in the sense I am speaking does not mean "falsity"; it actually can't be considered in terms of facts and falsities. Everyday problem solving, math, science; these are all expressions of logos. Mythos is the side of existence that defies reason, but we all experience.

"How does human procreation happen?" This question is answered through the means of science.

"For what purpose do humans procreate?" This question is experienced through the means of mythology and religion. There is no clear answer (unless you choose to misinterpret my meaning), but we all share in the experience of seeking meaning and purpose in our own lives. Myth and religion are our tools for experiencing that meaning and purpose, and expressing any of those great truths in any literal sense is impossible.

Christianity, as much as any of the other great human myths, is one way to experience the mythos. And any bad things that have come about from Christian belief were really just human fault, which any true Christian looks to stop from happening. Just like the rest of us, the Christians are human and prone to error.

To put that into language you might understand; you wouldn't blame the study of physics for the improper calculation of a space mission that resulted in human death, would you?

I've yet to hear critics of religion claim that the bible doesn't have historical and cultural significance. I'm sure most skeptics will agree with me that study of the bible and biblical beliefs are great if done in a secular and objective way. This is a far cry from actually believing that the Bible comes from God, and provides good moral instruction.

You can't expect religious works, even the great ones, to translate to anything remotely worthwhile in the literal language of logos. It's all figurative, and must be considered as such.

To me, what is actually written in the bible does matter. Because that's all the bible is at the end of the day, a book. And considering there is absolutely no reason anyone should find the book credible to begin with, it disturbing people base their life and thinking around it.

Yes, exactly! The Bible is a wonderful book of stories, that should be interpreted figuratively. It doesn't have to be a credible source of facts, because instead it's a credible source of figurative truths about the universe. Why is it disturbing that people base their lives around it? It's a wonderful expression of what it means to be human!

So I occasionally remind people that the book they hold up as the pinnacle of morality, is full of immoral instruction. The goal is to get them to channel whatever critical thinking abilities they have, toward their unjustified beliefs. Because it is important for humans to use their reasoning abilities when it comes to matters of morality and values. Blindly deferring to authorities is an extremely detrimental behavior to human progress. We know this because of books like the Bible and Mein Kampf.

Critical thinking is an expression of logos, and really has nothing at all to do with religion. Beliefs of this nature also shouldn't be attempted to be justified in the way you mean, because it's impossible and pointless. "Christian science" is blasphemy, and a terrible mistake some people make.

The obvious problem you have of being unable to understand what was like second nature to most human civilizations for the vast majority of human existence is widespread and frighteningly common in modern day people. Comparatively speaking, this shift from a balanced logos/mythos oriented mindset to one that greatly favors logos is a new human development, and I think it's going to take a massive epidemic (or 3) of sorts before we realize that we're doing is wrong. It's something I suffer from, too, being born where and when I was. Apathy, angst, existential crises... let's see just where this chapter of humanity leads us heh.

[Faerie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UPawN-N3Lg