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Reapin
06-16-2013, 10:26 AM
Margaret Doughty, a 64-year old woman from the UK who has spent the past 30+ years in the U.S., is in the process of applying for United States Citizenship and happens to be an atheist. She is currently a permanent resident running non-profit adult literacy organizations, doing her part to enrich the lives of American citizens. In the process of applying for citizenship, all candidates are asked if they’d be willing to take up arms in defense of the United States of America. Ms. Doughty responded,

“I am sure the law would never require a 64 year-old woman like myself to bear arms, but if I am required to answer this question, I cannot lie. I must be honest. The truth is that I would not be willing to bear arms. Since my youth I have had a firm, fixed and sincere objection to participation in war in any form or in the bearing of arms. I deeply and sincerely believe that it is not moral or ethical to take another person’s life, and my lifelong spiritual/religious beliefs impose on me a duty of conscience not to contribute to warfare by taking up arms…my beliefs are as strong and deeply held as those who possess traditional religious beliefs and who believe in God…I want to make clear, however, that I am willing to perform work of national importance under civilian direction or to perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States if and when required by the law to do so.”

Despite being an atheist, Ms. Doughty was told that any conscientious objection must be based on religious grounds, not simply moral objections. So as someone who was not religious, and didn’t believe in a god, she had no basis for objecting. Her statement has been denied and she has been informed that to move forward in the process she must submit a letter from the elders of her church to prove her conscientious objections are religiously based.

The USCIS has told her,

“Please submit a letter on official church stationery, attesting to the fact that you are a member in good standing and the church’s official position on the bearing of arms.”

She has been given until June 21st to show that her objection is religiously-based, or her application will be denied.

This is not the first time a non-religious person has raised a conscientious objection to joining the armed forces. In fact, related issues have gone to the Supreme Court and have been ruled in favor of the non-religious objector. In Welsh v. United States, Elliott Ashton Welsh refused to take up arms on a moral objection rather than a religious one. However, under the Universal Military Training and Service Act, one could only object to joining the armed forces based on a religious conviction involving a Supreme Being. The Court agreed that Welsh could be considered a conscientious objector based on his personal moral grounds, and that the exemption being purely religious was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

It appears that Margaret Doughty is facing a very similar First Amendment violation. As a conscientious objector to war, she is basing her position on her personal ethical code rather than a religious one. The response from the INS suggesting her claim must be based on religion is the same sort of First Amendment violation we saw in Welsh v. US.

Please join us in spreading the word about this case so that we can fight discrimination against non-believers. Coincidentally, Ms. Doughty’s stepson is Chris Johnson, a New York based photographer. He’s working on a book called A Better Life, which aims to shine a positive light on atheists by featuring 100 nonbelievers who found joy and meaning in their lives without god.

http://dividedundergod.com/2013/06/14/woman-being-denied-citizenship-because-her-morality-doesnt-come-from-religion/

kenzar
06-16-2013, 10:27 AM
did not read

Bardalicious
06-16-2013, 10:38 AM
I managed to get to "Woman Being Denied" til I realized that I probably didn't care about this thread either.

The Situation
06-16-2013, 10:40 AM
Who gives a shit?

Gaffin Deeppockets
06-16-2013, 10:41 AM
Who gives a shit?

Reapin
06-16-2013, 10:42 AM
Probably anyone who does not want to live in a theocracy run by the Christian Death Cult.

Barkingturtle
06-16-2013, 10:50 AM
Meh.

She should just tell them what they want to hear if she wants to be a citizen. If she can't lie effectively about what is at the core of her and suppress that which she thinks defines her then she's not really American material, anyway.

Reapin
06-16-2013, 10:54 AM
Meh.

She should just tell them what they want to hear if she wants to be a citizen. If she can't lie effectively about what is at the core of her and suppress that which she thinks defines her then she's not really American material, anyway.

lol

You are probably right.

Daldolma
06-16-2013, 11:34 AM
do not care

pharmakos
06-16-2013, 11:51 AM
i agree with Barkingturtle

lying to get around the law is the American Way

Bardalicious
06-16-2013, 12:03 PM
lying to get around the law is the American Way

No serving United States service member has ever smoked marijuana or experimented with other drugs either, of course. As if recruitment officers aren't really just put in place to help you lie through your application process the true American way.

Like the fatass slob of a recruitment officer that told me when he started gaining weight post-BMT's he'd just down a ton of coffee to pass the cardio portion of his physical checkup tests when all they did was measure heart rate on a bike or some shit.

Hasbinbad
06-16-2013, 12:15 PM
why would coffee help him pass a cardio portion of a physical checkup?

kenzar
06-16-2013, 12:32 PM
why would coffee help him pass a cardio portion of a physical checkup?

caffeine intake illicits a norepinephrine/epinephrine release, resulting in dilation of blood vessels predominately in the lungs (allowing in a higher efficiency in respiration) and the brain (resulting in higher alertness). The presence of those 2 hormones also releases higher levels of adrenaline into the bloodstream, reducing fatigue felt from long term physical activities. Read a book sometimes, geez.

pharmakos
06-16-2013, 12:35 PM
coffee is a poor man's cardio workout

get your heart pumping without even leaving your chair

pharmakos
06-16-2013, 12:35 PM
well, not poor, but lazy*

Hasbinbad
06-16-2013, 12:52 PM
caffeine intake illicits a norepinephrine/epinephrine release, resulting in dilation of blood vessels predominately in the lungs (allowing in a higher efficiency in respiration) and the brain (resulting in higher alertness). The presence of those 2 hormones also releases higher levels of adrenaline into the bloodstream, reducing fatigue felt from long term physical activities. Read a book sometimes, geez.
I find it extremely hard to believe he could do some level of activity with coffee that he could not without it.

Bardalicious
06-16-2013, 12:55 PM
I find it extremely hard to believe he could do some level of activity with coffee that he could not without it.

You're too busy attempting to keep up this veneer of intellectual superiority to actually read what other people have typed. Explanation was already in my OP.

Barkingturtle
06-16-2013, 12:55 PM
Maybe the coffee made him have to poop so he peddled faster. Like a metaphorical carrot tied to a stick.

Barkingturtle
06-16-2013, 12:55 PM
pedaled*

kenzar
06-16-2013, 12:57 PM
I find it extremely hard to believe he could do some level of activity with coffee that he could not without it.

No one said it did.

Bardalicious
06-16-2013, 12:59 PM
Maybe the coffee made him have to poop so he peddled faster. Like a metaphorical carrot tied to a stick.

Don't fat ppl have to poop all the time anyways? :confused: :confused:

Reapin
06-16-2013, 01:19 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/969183_10151639378954780_1768696894_n.jpg

pharmakos
06-16-2013, 01:57 PM
Genesis 19:30-38
New International Version (NIV)
Lot and His Daughters

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab[a]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi[b]; he is the father of the Ammonites[c] of today.





.....wow

FoxxHound
06-16-2013, 02:50 PM
GOD DAMMIT PEOPLE. WHAT THE FUCK.
We are suppose to be Christian, and hate each other. Kill each other, and others in the name of the almighty. Jesus fucking himself JFC! WE ARE A CHRISTIANIAN NATION.

derp.

r00t
06-16-2013, 02:59 PM
read to the part where she wouldnt defend the country

this has nothing to do with her retarded atheist beliefs

we dont need communist pussies move along ol hag

Faerie
06-16-2013, 03:03 PM
.....wow

It's religion/mythology. Don't be so small-minded, it's not meant to be taken literally or out of context.

r00t
06-16-2013, 03:12 PM
its real simple to get citizenship for old british ladies, just tell them what they want to hear and move on

when you get all uppity like this BITCH you pay the consequences

but she knew this being that far into life, or she has aspergers or no social skills whatsoever

Sadre Spinegnawer
06-16-2013, 03:18 PM
apathy is so hawt.

In the defense of those who say "I do not care and I did not read," I guess life is hard enough already for them, and they truly do not have the extra energy to take on another story, another bad and troubling thing to consider.

Either that, or they are just willfully ignorant assholes.

Daldolma
06-16-2013, 03:39 PM
or maybe just don't care about some dumb 64 year old woman that needed to make a statement with her citizenship application. check yes and move on

p sure we won't be calling 64 year old women to the front lines

Reapin
06-16-2013, 03:50 PM
read to the part where she wouldnt defend the country

this has nothing to do with her retarded atheist beliefs

we dont need communist pussies move along ol hag



I know you are just a trolling douche bag, but they they make it plainly clear that they do not care if she refuses to take up arms. They only care that it has nothing to do with being in a cult.

r00t
06-16-2013, 03:53 PM
she has no first amendment protection, because she's not a citizen yet. her entire case has no legal basis

Hailto
06-16-2013, 05:07 PM
You're too busy attempting to keep up this veneer of intellectual superiority to actually read what other people have typed. Explanation was already in my OP.

2tru

pharmakos
06-16-2013, 07:32 PM
It's religion/mythology. Don't be so small-minded, it's not meant to be taken literally or out of context.

?? i actually tracked down the biblical passage instead of just taking the meme at face value.

i even knew instantly that the dude was Lot from Sodom and Gomorrah, just based on his wife being turned into a pillar of salt

even not taken literally and just taken as mythology.... thats a pretty messed up passage

Bardalicious
06-16-2013, 11:17 PM
apathy is so hawt.

In the defense of those who say "I do not care and I did not read," I guess life is hard enough already for them, and they truly do not have the extra energy to take on another story, another bad and troubling thing to consider.

Either that, or they are just willfully ignorant assholes.

I fight to defend honor and morality of all the less fortunate. But only in the Rants and Flames section of the forums for a 14 year old mmo video game.

So please, enlighten me as to how you pretending to have your feelings hurt online only to go on and do nothing constructive to aid this woman's cause is any less apathetic than me choosing not to give a shit about reading it in the first place.

myriverse
06-17-2013, 10:18 AM
Idiots. You can be both religious and atheist. Not all religions have gods, you know.

moklianne
06-17-2013, 10:35 AM
Morality doesn't come from religion anyway. Even though religious types would object to this statement, its true.

Csihar
06-17-2013, 03:36 PM
Morality doesn't come from religion anyway. Even though religious types would object to this statement, its true.

You're right. It comes from God the Almighty. Also the back of cereal boxes.

pharmakos
06-17-2013, 05:53 PM
i got all my morality from episodes of Captain Planet