The market sucks

[Reiker]

On P99 there are two types of items auctioned: rubbish and over priced shit. Don't bother trying to play the market with dudes constantly spending hours of their life try to sell an Advisor Robe for 1.5k

I swear there's one transaction for every 50-100 /auctions. EC on live was way more fun because people were way less retarded about selling their crap.

[Phallax]

On P99 there are two types of items auctioned: rubbish and over priced shit. Don't bother trying to play the market with dudes constantly spending hours of their life try to sell an Advisor Robe for 1.5k

I swear there's one transaction for every 50-100 /auctions. EC on live was way more fun because people were way less retarded about selling their crap.

Yea advisor robes are extremely over priced here lol, as is most everything.

[Lazortag]

I have no problems with the market as it is. I sell shitty noob stuff cheap and the occasional Shralok Pack, or lots of Spider Silks for decent money. This is great because it helps me make a bit of extra plat while I don't feel like killing things while also helping nooby tanks who need a Shiny Brass Halberd or some other noob junk. Honestly "playing the market" is more of a concept for games like WoW or Perfect World where the majority of players are idiots and will spend too much for too little.

[Dantes]

Yup. 500pp for Dwarven Work Boots. 150pp for ONE jagged band. 200pp for a PGT. Ridiculous.

[Walabaego]

Prices are way too high imo. Greedy people :(

[astarothel]

Prices are way too high imo. Greedy people :(

Prices are what the market will bear. You aren't required to buy everything listed, and I certainly wouldn't seeing as how it's overpriced by 25% usually.
Some prices are up (lol Dark Reavers) because of demand for the 30000 new SKs and SK alts rolled.

Know what to farm, and where to farm it, and you're just fine.

[astarothel]

Prices are what the market will bear. You aren't required to buy everything listed, and I certainly wouldn't seeing as how it's overpriced by 25% usually. Try and bargain it down that 25% markup.

Some prices are up (lol Dark Reavers) because of demand with the 30000 new SKs and SK alts rolled. It's normal.

Know what to farm, and where to farm it, and you're just fine.

[Walabaego]

Doesnt change the greedy factor of people. This is an EMULATOR. Emulator....Emulation. Eemmuuussss

[astarothel]

Awesome double post there, and I can't edit it because of RnF.

I have no clue how many people I have financed with my tradeskill addiction through buying hundreds of stacks of spidersilk, spiderling silk, eggs, etc.

[mr.miketastic]

Hmm, so if an item farmer was smart, they would spread some sort of disinformation about what the class du jour is, and make bank selling the class du jour popular items off. How many SK's are there now?

[astarothel]

How many SK's are there now?

Soooooooo many. Look at all the WTB Dark Reaver threads posted in the last month.

[mr.miketastic]

Soooooooo many. Look at all the WTB Dark Reaver threads posted in the last month.

Lol,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07K7LgwMrs4

[Lazortag]

Yup. 500pp for Dwarven Work Boots. 150pp for ONE jagged band. 200pp for a PGT. Ridiculous.

200pp for a PGT? Bullshit - average I see them sell for is 100, and I've seen them as low as 75 on a few occasions.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Aren't DWB best in slot for rogues and rangers? 500pp for a rare drop bis seems pretty reasonable.

[Lazortag]

Honestly I think most of you are just whining and not trying hard enough. If you look hard enough and bargain with people you'll get better prices. Most people want to sell things quickly and will settle for like 80% of the price they list.

Also, you can't complain about price-gouging for a very obvious reason; let me explain with an example: in real life if the price of, say, carrots is too high that's a problem because (a) carrots are food and food is essential and (b) it's hard to grow your own carrots. However in Everquest everything can be farmed/quested for eventually and nothing that players sell is "essential", and so the EC tunnel is just a shortcut for people who want to get good items sooner. Therefore, the prices of most items have a reasonable upper bound because if people gouged too much no one would ever sell anything - it's not like any players would be "forced" to buy from other players the way people would be forced to buy carrots if everyone sold them for a hundred dollars each.

[Kinamur1999]

Doesnt change the greedy factor of people. This is an EMULATOR. Emulator....Emulation. Eemmuuussss

another this an emulator so all items are worthless post? I never understood these, if the emulator server doesn't mean anything to you, don't play on it.

Or does paying $15 a month make an fbss worth more?

[YendorLootmonkey]

A few random points:

a) Everything is worth exactly how much some sucker will pay for it. Overpriced shit will not sell until the seller drops the price low enough for an interested buyer to send a tell. The only way to bring prices down is for people to stop buying overpriced shit at the advertised prices. However, see (c)

b) The advertised price isn't always what the item sells for after haggling via /tells, which is going to be based on how long the seller wants to stand there auctioning his/her overpriced shit.

c) If the market is overpriced and stays that way without reaching equilibrium, it's because there's an overabundance of level 50's with cash to burn inflating the market on their alts, creating a heavy barrier to entry for non-50 buyers that are levelling up to 50 for the first time without access to that sort of plat from HG/phat lewt farming.

[Dantes]

200pp for a PGT? Bullshit - average I see them sell for is 100, and I've seen them as low as 75 on a few occasions.

I agree that it's bullshit, but I saw somebody auctioning one for that price.

[Walabaego]

another this an emulator so all items are worthless post? I never understood these, if the emulator server doesn't mean anything to you, don't play on it.

Or does paying $15 a month make an fbss worth more?

Does not change the fact people are greedy lol thats all I was saying. Im not gonna elaborate on youre quote, just quoting for my own /chuckle. Greedy peeeople I say it with haands in the aaair!

[Sacrilegious]

Speaking of greed, where's my gear Wala!!? :P (: (;

[frefaln]

Tangent: inflated prices can indeed be annoying, but not half as annoying as smartasses who /ooc stuff like "WTB whatever [seller] is smoking for asking that much." Newsflash, some sellers aren't playing every waking moment and are sometimes not actually trying to gouge people, but are taking their best guess (and I've seen plenty of price checks go ignored).

Bugs me to see people taking cheap shots at each other over pricing, when it's pretty clear the EQ economy rarely makes any sense and mistakes (high and low) are going to happen.

[Walabaego]

Speaking of greed, where's my gear Wala!!? :P (: (;

Silly well I did tell you to remind me didnt I :P

[Kraftwerk]

Tangent: inflated prices can indeed be annoying, but not half as annoying as smartasses who /ooc stuff like "WTB whatever [seller] is smoking for asking that much." Newsflash, some sellers aren't playing every waking moment and are sometimes not actually trying to gouge people, but are taking their best guess (and I've seen plenty of price checks go ignored).

Bugs me to see people taking cheap shots at each other over pricing, when it's pretty clear the EQ economy rarely makes any sense and mistakes (high and low) are going to happen.

Completely agree. Let people sell things for whatever they want to sell them for. A note to people who /ooc "Random seller is retarded <Item A> isn't worth that":

1) You may be wrong, try a PC or keep an eye on pricing
2) They may not know, whisper them with what your experience/observations lately have been
3) They may know, and not care. I personally fall under this category. It is worth it to try overselling an item and not sell it for days to keep the market perception of its value higher so that when I continue farming the item the decline in price is not as severe even though supply is rising.

Let people play this game and get their rocks off (as long as it is not directly causing your gameplay experience to suffer) however they may desire. Insults in ooc over someones choice to sell an item at a certain price is immature at best.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Tangent: inflated prices can indeed be annoying, but not half as annoying as smartasses who /ooc stuff like "WTB whatever [seller] is smoking for asking that much." Newsflash, some sellers aren't playing every waking moment and are sometimes not actually trying to gouge people, but are taking their best guess (and I've seen plenty of price checks go ignored).

Bugs me to see people taking cheap shots at each other over pricing, when it's pretty clear the EQ economy rarely makes any sense and mistakes (high and low) are going to happen.


It's all part of the auction game... taking a shot at getting the market price lowered by ridiculing enough people selling X at price Y and causing them to think they won't sell their shit at price Y. Which of course is the counter-strategy to the ol' "ask for price check and have a random buddy or two shout out some overpriced amount so your price seems legit" tactic trying to get the market price raised, or the newly-discovered "use the forums to perpetuate a false need for class Z on the server so all the rich, bored level 50's make alts of class Z and create a better market for all your class Z-usable shit for sale."

All part of the "a sucker is born every minute" game. :)

[Ropethunder]

I usually sell stuff for what I think is reasonable and it usually sells pretty quick. But I agree. A lot of stuff is waay overpriced.

[astarothel]

I usually sell stuff for what I think is reasonable and it usually sells pretty quick. But I agree. A lot of stuff is waay overpriced.

For every overpriced seller, there is a ridiculous lowballer who is WTB.
No, you will not find someone to sell you a Dark Reaver for 200pp.
I understand if you're new and just starting out, but let's try and be realistic here.

What bothers me more though are the people that will shoot you a lowball offer of less than half your asking price, when they know full well what it is worth. I'm sorry if you're running around in rubicite at level 5, DWing Yak's with black sapp JC and an FBSS on, maybe just maybe you can pay a reasonable price for an item, port or rez.

[kariden]

For every overpriced seller, there is a ridiculous lowballer who is WTB.
No, you will not find someone to sell you a Dark Reaver for 200pp.
I understand if you're new and just starting out, but let's try and be realistic here.

What bothers me more though are the people that will shoot you a lowball offer of less than half your asking price, when they know full well what it is worth. I'm sorry if you're running around in rubicite at level 5, DWing Yak's with black sapp JC and an FBSS on, maybe just maybe you can pay a reasonable price for an item, port or rez.

Agree, Stop fawking telling me to port you for free when I am not offering ports in /ooc WHILE you are twinked out with something like 100kpp in items.

Seriously tho people /auc items at whatever price and you can send a tell and offer to buy it for less. Its not that hard and the worse thing that happens is the seller says no.

[bullet]

The server for some unknown stupid reason wanted to remove global ooc/auction.

It sucks but you just have to live with it, I stopped playing and giving away free items from that day.

[Reiker]

Prices are what the market will bear. You aren't required to buy everything listed, and I certainly wouldn't seeing as how it's overpriced by 25% usually.
Some prices are up (lol Dark Reavers) because of demand for the 30000 new SKs and SK alts rolled.

Know what to farm, and where to farm it, and you're just fine.
I disagree. No one's buying this shit. I'm seeing the same people selling the same crap over an entire week.

It also has a lot to do with supplying items that are in demand. Oracle Robe is a ridiculously easy item for a higher level player to obtain, with a static, guaranteed drop out in the open. I just spun around real quick in EC and saw about 7 people who would probably want to buy one, but I haven't seen one for sale in the past week. Just one example... constantly people WTBing a list of items and people constantly WTSing a completely different list. "Hey, I know you want Item A, but I can sell you the inferior Item B for 2x the price!"

[Reiker]

It's still interesting though, as the server population grows and there are more and more lower levels, the server becomes increasingly unfriendly towards those new players only to turn a profit.

Back when the server was hitting 200s at prime time, I used to give away shit like batskull earrings on the regular. Now people are trying to sell them for 600p? Get the fuck out.

[ryuut1]

inflation, people!

a pgt used to cost 75pp now it's like 200pp.

a car used to cost 1500 new now it's 50 grand!

[Gandite]

Reiker you're talking about a specific example in the case of the batskull earring. I see them go for 250 fairly often. Also I see oracle robes out the friggin ass. 300-400p. I've been in EC the last 10 days buying monk shit and those robes are everywhere.

On the whole I see prices dropping. SMR, Mith 2h, Yak, FBSS etc are all a lot cheaper than when I started in January. The people who sell over priced shit are the people who sell it for weeks on end. I regularly see people in EC for a week selling the same shit. Just because a price is advertised at a certain level does not mean that is what it sells for.

It seems like Ziggey has been trying to sell red sash of order and purple headband for 5k for over a month now. I waited patiently and got them both for 800p. This isn't like the bazaar or the auction house where everyone lowballs shit because they want their money liquidated. Buying and selling here requires time and a concerted effort. If you want to move shit quickly low ball it. If you want to buy shit quickly high ball it. If you want your moneys worth expect to spend at least several days in EC.

A lot of people sell shit not knowing what its worth. A lot of people buy shit not know what its worth myself included. The other day I bought a serp bracer for 150p not knowing the item is not worth nearly that. They regularly go for 50p but I was out of the loop on melee gear. My own fault. EC is like anything else in terms of getting gear in this game. Gotta camp it.

[Savok]

EC is like anything else in terms of getting gear in this game. Gotta camp it.

^^^ That.

[astarothel]

The server for some unknown stupid reason wanted to remove global ooc/auction.

It sucks but you just have to live with it, I stopped playing and giving away free items from that day.

Good job attempting to railroad in some crying over the loss of global ooc/auction toward an argument where it's completely irrelevant. The concentration of people there means its actually easier to give shit away to people that deserve it than before, and it happens all the time. What you basically said was "I sell less, so therefore I will subsequently give away less". It's a good thing not everyone on the server is an overzealous, greedy shitbag troll like you then, isn't it?

[Agaron]

^ change tradeskill to forum in your sig, and playing a female toon when you're a dude is creepy.

[Kraftwerk]

playing a female toon when you're a dude is creepy.

But then Norrath, or better yet all MMO's would be populated with 95% male characters, my roleplaying dedication would force me to play a bicurious dark elf man awkwardly queueing for the sausagefest night clubs in the slums of East Freeport. I don't think I'm ready to go down that alley of RPing...yet.

[Aarone]

Also, you can't complain about price-gouging for a very obvious reason; let me explain with an example: in real life if the price of, say, carrots is too high that's a problem because (a) carrots are food and food is essential and (b) it's hard to grow your own carrots...

As a gardener in New England, I can attest to this - the damn bunnies and other critters keep eating the new plants!!

Now, if I could only afford a PGT, I'd chop their little heads off! ;)

[mr.miketastic]

But then Norrath, or better yet all MMO's would be populated with 95% male characters, my roleplaying dedication would force me to play a bicurious dark elf man awkwardly queueing for the sausagefest night clubs in the slums of East Freeport. I don't think I'm ready to go down that alley of RPing...yet.

Transquestite

[astarothel]

playing a female toon when you're a dude is creepy.

Sorry, I'd rather play a female Erudite than look at the racial stereotype that is the male Erudite with their massive covered forehead all day long. At least all she has is the massive booty dance animation after I use my jboots.

If that's going to be your angle tho, given that I have a Terror Forged Mask and spend a hefty chunk of time as a skeleton, I would be more worried about that...

[Omnimorph]

I agree that it's bullshit, but I saw somebody auctioning one for that price.

And i saw someone selling a rokyl's crystal for 15k like 2 hours after seeing someone selling one for 8k.

I didn't buy it!

[Lazortag]

inflation, people!

a pgt used to cost 75pp now it's like 200pp.


No, it still doesn't cost 200pp. Don't buy it for 200pp unless you're an idiot.

[bullet]

No, it still doesn't cost 200pp. Don't buy it for 200pp unless you're an idiot.

Yea man just spend a few weeks trying to find someone selling it cheaper, when you no longer need it.

Everquest is the rulest!

[Lazortag]

It doesn't take a long time at all to find someone selling a PGT for a reasonable price, or to find someone willing to bargain, etc. Nor does it take a long time to just get it yourself. You're probably illiterate and so you just don't notice the legions of people willing to sell them for 100 plat every day.

[Reiker]

Inflation should have an exponentially greater impact on the high end than the low end, but for some reason P99 inflation is about equal for all levels. This is the biggest problem.

If we go back in the first week or two of the server, the first "valuable" drops were being traded for pocket change for the simple fact that there was only a few thousand plat on the server, total.

Now that the server's been out for almost three quarters of a year, those who have been at the high end for a majority of the time "literally own entire castles filled with gold and treasures" (amusing quote from an article I read recently about EQ Economics).

Those players have high buying power. They have tens of thousands of platinum, so dropping 11,000 on an FBSS for a twink is fine for them. Larger amounts of platinum are moving around the economy, hence inflation.

However, a new player who starts today is going to have the same bankroll as they did a week or two after the server released. The majority of their income is coming from within the game ie. coin and vendor loot dropped from mobs. This obviously doesn't increase as more players enter the game. So while a PGT may be worth 4x more now than it did then, your average level 15 melee who would probably want one won't come close to being able to afford one. No sane level 50 on the server is going to twink a new character with a PGT or an Advisor Robe or any of these items that have been made an example of. And this is where the problem lies, the buying power of a percentage of the playerbase is increasing the price for the entire playerbase, essentially making the poor even less incapable of equipping themselves than months ago. Essentially the large influx of new players is straight up hindering those new players to progress themselves, interestingly enough. It's a double-edged sword that is harming the newer playerbase instead of nurturing it.

The detrimental effects don't end here. The majority of new players need groups to level. 95% of groups in EQ follow the lines of the traditional D&D trinity: tank, healer, dps. If anyone has been leveling here recently, here is what you'll see.

The majority of the time you will be looking for a tank. You'll have bards and rangers tanking more often than warriors or knights. If you do find a tank, it's only because a level 50 is bored and decided to twink one out. You'll easily group with more twinked tanks than "normally geared" tanks, probably at about 4:1. If the tank leaves, your group dies. This is the largest issue with the lower end leveling scene at this moment.

Your healers are druids. Druids are the least gear dependant healer right now, so by virtue of the above, there's a large influx of druids.

Your DPS are casters. You may very rarely find a monk, as they do well without gear, but you'll almost never find an untwinked rogue. Most full groups will consist of 3-4 robed casters, as those four classes are the best in the game without good gear.

[astarothel]

Not exactly a surprise seeing as how the exact same thing happened on live...

[fastboy21]

in my opinion, the biggest issue with the market isn't greed (sure, folks are greedy...but the market has nothing to do with greed. items only sell for what someone will pay. supply and demand meet somewhere, and thats the price. if someone can sell an fbss for 11k they aren't being greedy, they are being smart business people.)

the biggest issue is that we are essentially like the old live "split" servers.

i can't prove this other then my own intuition (maybe the devs can) but if you were to graph the amount of players who joined and when they joined the game here it would be very much lop-sided towards the second half of time the server has been up. in other words there are a (relative) small number of folks that have been here almost since the beginning, and a much (relatively) larger number that are newer.

this has created an economy dominated by players that were farming FBSS's when most of the community hadn't even gotten out of their newbie zones. that is the first problem.

when you combine this with a server that has TONS of alts being rolled currently...and only more as we approach kunark era (when ppl will go back to their mains for a while) there is a very very lopsided super high demand for droppable "high lvl to obtain low lvl usable gear." Enter the 12k FBSS, etc.

I believe this will fix itself during kunark for a number of reasons, but until then the market is going to be a very unfriendly new player place if you want to obtain the best buyable gear in the game. Don't get me wrong the problems will still remain in kunark (I believe we will see SUPER ridiculous prices on fungis the first week), but it will slowly correct during kunark.

One caviat, if there is another "boom" in server population during kunark of new (not returning) players we may have the same problem all over again. I'm not sure how this will play out.

Another upcoming issue that will decimate the economy here (potentially) is the release of a new progression server from EQ...I believe they will announce it at fanfaire the first week of july.

[astarothel]

Another upcoming issue that will decimate the economy here (potentially) is the release of a new progression server from EQ...I believe they will announce it at fanfaire the first week of july.

Personally I have lost all hope for Sony managing a prog server right.
Then again maybe that's just me -- I am such a wonderfully optimistic individual.

[Combo]

Personally I have lost all hope for Sony managing a prog server right.
Then again maybe that's just me -- I am such a wonderfully optimistic individual.

The bad (good?) thing about P99 is that they've drawn Sony's eye. Sony reads about the reported 10,000 accounts, the 850 peak players, the thriving community and thinks "Gee, maybe if we actually did REAL CLASSIC TIMELOCKED PROGRESSION we could get a bunch of new/returning accounts."

And the godforsaken truth is, they absolutely would.

I remember some other classic EQ emulator... thing getting shut down. Maybe because it didn't operate under the EQ Emu umbrella or something? Anyway, Sony gazed at them and they quickly shut up and shut down.

Why hasn't this happened here? My conspiracy theory is, we're just being watched to gauge whether Sony should pull the trigger on an official server in this vein or not. Open up a new one, get 80% of the active population to transfer, then wait two months to flex their muscle here and shut this down, getting the other 20% to avoid looking like an outright shakedown that would make players quit both in disgust.

I really wish I could give you guys $15 a month for the promise of my character not getting deleted in the night by a legal ambush, accelerated coding/debugging/whatevering, better/more Guides/GMs, more hardware, advertising, etc... but I can't.

I've been playing here a week now and loving it, but damn if it doesn't feel like I'm playing on tissue-thin ice. I found out about this place at Ten Ton Hammer after all, which shocked me -- this place was really advertised? Smed was interviewed? And you're still standing? Wow. I jumped aboard immediately... but like I said -- thin ice.

[Combo]

The bad (good?) thing about P99 is that they've drawn Sony's eye. Sony reads about the reported 10,000 accounts, the 850 peak players, the thriving community and thinks "Gee, maybe if we actually did REAL CLASSIC TIMELOCKED PROGRESSION we could get a bunch of new/returning accounts."

And the godforsaken truth is, they absolutely would.

I remember some other classic EQ emulator thing getting shut down. Maybe because it didn't operate under the EQ Emu umbrella or something? Anyway, Sony gazed at them and they quickly shut up and shut down.

Why hasn't this happened here? My conspiracy theory is, we're just being watched to gauge whether Sony should pull the trigger on an official server in this vein or not. Open up a new one, get 80% of the active population to transfer, then wait two months to flex their muscle here and shut this down, getting the other 20% to avoid looking like an outright shakedown that would make players quit both in disgust.

I really wish I could give you guys $15 a month for the promise of my character not getting deleted in the night by a legal ambush, accelerated coding/debugging/whatevering, better/more Guides/GMs, more hardware, advertising, etc... but I can't.

I've been playing here a week now and loving it, but damn if it doesn't feel like I'm playing on tissue-thin ice. I found out about this place at Ten Ton Hammer after all, which shocked me -- this place was really advertised? Smed was interviewed? And you're still standing? Wow. I jumped aboard immediately... but like I said -- thin ice.

[Combo]

Sorry, double post. Fucking Droid...

[bullet]

The bad (good?) thing about P99 is that they've drawn Sony's eye. Sony reads about the reported 10,000 accounts, the 850 peak players, the thriving community and thinks "Gee, maybe if we actually did REAL CLASSIC TIMELOCKED PROGRESSION we could get a bunch of new/returning accounts."

And the godforsaken truth is, they absolutely would.

I remember some other classic EQ emulator... thing getting shut down. Maybe because it didn't operate under the EQ Emu umbrella or something? Anyway, Sony gazed at them and they quickly shut up and shut down.

Why hasn't this happened here? My conspiracy theory is, we're just being watched to gauge whether Sony should pull the trigger on an official server in this vein or not. Open up a new one, get 80% of the active population to transfer, then wait two months to flex their muscle here and shut this down, getting the other 20% to avoid looking like an outright shakedown that would make players quit both in disgust.

I really wish I could give you guys $15 a month for the promise of my character not getting deleted in the night by a legal ambush, accelerated coding/debugging/whatevering, better/more Guides/GMs, more hardware, advertising, etc... but I can't.

I've been playing here a week now and loving it, but damn if it doesn't feel like I'm playing on tissue-thin ice. I found out about this place at Ten Ton Hammer after all, which shocked me -- this place was really advertised? Smed was interviewed? And you're still standing? Wow. I jumped aboard immediately... but like I said -- thin ice.



No matter what you won't be playing this for years like the 'good old times'

Project 1999 biggest flaw is it's 10 years old and it shows in the long run IMO.

Just enjoy the ride while it lasts.

[Combo]

No matter what you won't be playing this for years like the 'good old times'

Project 1999 biggest flaw is it's 10 years old and it shows in the long run IMO.

Just enjoy the ride while it lasts.

lol troll

[Combo]

However, a new player who starts today is going to have the same bankroll as they did a week or two after the server released. The majority of their income is coming from within the game ie. coin and vendor loot dropped from mobs. This obviously doesn't increase as more players enter the game. So while a PGT may be worth 4x more now than it did then, your average level 15 melee who would probably want one won't come close to being able to afford one. No sane level 50 on the server is going to twink a new character with a PGT or an Advisor Robe or any of these items that have been made an example of. And this is where the problem lies, the buying power of a percentage of the playerbase is increasing the price for the entire playerbase, essentially making the poor even less incapable of equipping themselves than months ago. Essentially the large influx of new players is straight up hindering those new players to progress themselves, interestingly enough. It's a double-edged sword that is harming the newer playerbase instead of nurturing it.

The detrimental effects don't end here. The majority of new players need groups to level. 95% of groups in EQ follow the lines of the traditional D&D trinity: tank, healer, dps. If anyone has been leveling here recently, here is what you'll see.

The majority of the time you will be looking for a tank. You'll have bards and rangers tanking more often than warriors or knights. If you do find a tank, it's only because a level 50 is bored and decided to twink one out. You'll easily group with more twinked tanks than "normally geared" tanks, probably at about 4:1. If the tank leaves, your group dies. This is the largest issue with the lower end leveling scene at this moment.

Your healers are druids. Druids are the least gear dependant healer right now, so by virtue of the above, there's a large influx of druids.

Your DPS are casters. You may very rarely find a monk, as they do well without gear, but you'll almost never find an untwinked rogue. Most full groups will consist of 3-4 robed casters, as those four classes are the best in the game without good gear.

Being a new player on P99 this is definitely a great post and worth commenting on.

My "main," if you could call it that, is an untwinked Barbarian Rogue. He is currently level 11, equipped with a Puguis, some large cloth, and about 40 plat. The only "twinked" item I have is the Pugius. Some guy gave it to me for helping him transfer crushbone belts to his alt. Otherwise I'd be using a Tarnished Rapier.

The only thing I can apparently buy with this 40p is Banded, which is largely irrelevant to a class who shouldn't be getting hit all that much, and can't even pull aggro with his pathetic weapon.

I've tried to buy basic +2 STR rings, but the guy selling them wanted 25p for a pair. I remember these being 2-4pp each all the way into Velious.

I've tried to buy a new weapon. I dug through the EC forum and found someone had sold a Serrated Bone Dirk for 50p about a month ago. Running to the tunnel I find a guy wanting to sell one for 250p (he wouldn't list the price, I had to send him a tell). When I said, in so many words, "rofl, no fucking way," he went crazy and begged me to offer a lower price. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen. I just stopped responding as I didn't want to get into the whole back and forth where his feelings get hurt because he's not going to get the wild price he wants.

Gloomwater Harpoons go for about 200, and I don't know if that's reasonable or not, but 200p is a pretty distant goal at this juncture. My farming options are Bone Chips (~5plat a stack, in the EC region as a Rogue this is a horrible time:return ratio), High Quality Bear/Cat skins (what I'd been doing, mostly, before I headed off to gfay), and Silks (20p-ish a stack, but rarely any buyers). Over in gfay, I try to sell Crushbone Belts for 1p/each (which is normal). They sell, but the buyers are wildly erratic and further, I have to go back to EC to (try to) buy anything.

On the subject of group composition, you're pretty much dead on the money.

Over in Crushbone, here's the group composition analysis:

Druids, untwinked (100% inevitable, often 2/group or worse).
Paladins, twinked (close to inevitable, and often more than 1).
Warriors, twinked (about half to a third of the time).
Rogues, twinked (about 1/4th the time).
Wizards, untwinked (about 1/4th the time).
Bards, twinked (uncommon).
Clerics, twinked (rare).

Special Mention:
Mages/Enchanters, untwinked or twinked (not seen in groups past 8, typically pulling/leveling faster than full groups are).

Any other combinations I've only seen once or twice (twinked Human Monk one time) or not at all.

If a class is even the least bit gear dependent, 90% of the time they're mad twinked. While I'm backstabbing for 15, the Wood Elf Warrior with a Mithril Two-Handed Sword and god knows what else is hitting for over 30.

Is it frustrating? Not really. I'd like to backstab for, you know, 20, but no one keeps me out of groups because my gear sucks (yet). There's more flexibility in groups when your tanks are twinked -- it lets Druids heal, for instance. If we were all as poor as me, we'd need the trinity starting at level 4.

[Kraftwerk]

Special Mention:
Mages/Enchanters, untwinked or twinked (not seen in groups past 8, typically pulling/leveling faster than full groups are).




Haha, my favorite part of your post...because it is so painfully dead on the money. I grouped once going 1-50, and it was slower than if I was soloing (in both experience coming in and # of mobs killed per hour). Oh is the life of a Magician.

[Combo]

I play an Enchanter with my brother, a Mage. We group in CB just so we can zone out/semi-afk, but once we hit 8 we're done with 6-man groups unless it's for something uber-leet.

Which is really sad since Magicians bring so much to the table for a group. As in, letting us leech off you.

[BuzWeaver]

On P99 there are two types of items auctioned: rubbish and over priced shit. Don't bother trying to play the market with dudes constantly spending hours of their life try to sell an Advisor Robe for 1.5k

I swear there's one transaction for every 50-100 /auctions. EC on live was way more fun because people were way less retarded about selling their crap.

With such a limited amount of players its somewhat to be expected.

[Crover_CT99]

Being a new player on P99 this is definitely a great post and worth commenting on.

My "main," if you could call it that, is an untwinked Barbarian Rogue. He is currently level 11, equipped with a Puguis, some large cloth, and about 40 plat. The only "twinked" item I have is the Pugius. Some guy gave it to me for helping him transfer crushbone belts to his alt. Otherwise I'd be using a Tarnished Rapier.

The only thing I can apparently buy with this 40p is Banded, which is largely irrelevant to a class who shouldn't be getting hit all that much, and can't even pull aggro with his pathetic weapon.

I've tried to buy basic +2 STR rings, but the guy selling them wanted 25p for a pair. I remember these being 2-4pp each all the way into Velious.

I've tried to buy a new weapon. I dug through the EC forum and found someone had sold a Serrated Bone Dirk for 50p about a month ago. Running to the tunnel I find a guy wanting to sell one for 250p (he wouldn't list the price, I had to send him a tell). When I said, in so many words, "rofl, no fucking way," he went crazy and begged me to offer a lower price. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen. I just stopped responding as I didn't want to get into the whole back and forth where his feelings get hurt because he's not going to get the wild price he wants.

Gloomwater Harpoons go for about 200, and I don't know if that's reasonable or not, but 200p is a pretty distant goal at this juncture. My farming options are Bone Chips (~5plat a stack, in the EC region as a Rogue this is a horrible time:return ratio), High Quality Bear/Cat skins (what I'd been doing, mostly, before I headed off to gfay), and Silks (20p-ish a stack, but rarely any buyers). Over in gfay, I try to sell Crushbone Belts for 1p/each (which is normal). They sell, but the buyers are wildly erratic and further, I have to go back to EC to (try to) buy anything.



If you look at the game by design, your Barb isn't really doing all that bad.

Both the SBD and the Gloom Poon drop off mobs in their 30s, so "realistically" you wouldn't have yet had the chance to earn these items yourself, and thus the prices should probably be out of your current reach.

Back at release melees would experience a progression more like this:
1-10: patchwork/rawhide/leather, rusty/bronze (bronze if lucky) weapons
10-20: chain/banded/black iron/bronze armor, bronze/fs/combine (used to be leet!) weapons
-maybe a unique magic drop
20-30: +steel plate/rubicite if lucky
-handful of unique magic drops
30+: generally start to fill out slots with unique gear one by one

By my casual observations, more PP drops on P99 than at release as well. I know I had multiple PP before level 5 on P99, which seems inflated to me.

I had enough money for all my spells each level, which is not reminiscent of my experience on live at release. I remember my brother definitely budgeting and carefully choosing which spells he wanted when he reached a new spell level.

Anyways, I'm sure there is inflation, but there are plenty of us selling items for what we perceive to be fair prices. I started in April and didn't wear anything I didn't earn or make until my 20s-30s, and didn't really have expendable income until my cleric reached level 44 and I could farm solo. At that point, I just camped my little heart out and was on a mountain of cash within a couple of weeks.

I made it and so will everyone else. It might surprise some to know that EQ is in fact more fun on the way up than it is at the top. That bloodclaw stiletto will feel all the more sweet when you eek out a victory in Najena with camrades and it replace your tired old pugius.

... but, that's just like my opinion, man.

[Combo]

If you look at the game by design, your Barb isn't really doing all that bad...

Oh, I agree entirely. I hinted at that in the last line of that big post above -- if no one was twinked, we'd all practically have to be running WAR/CLR/ENC starting at level 4 just to get anywhere (Mages not included). The WAR would be rocking tattered/patchwork and maybe some rawhide with a Tarnished weapon. It'd be awesome.

[pickled_heretic]

If you look at the game by design, your Barb isn't really doing all that bad.

Both the SBD and the Gloom Poon drop off mobs in their 30s, so "realistically" you wouldn't have yet had the chance to earn these items yourself, and thus the prices should probably be out of your current reach.

Back at release melees would experience a progression more like this:
1-10: patchwork/rawhide/leather, rusty/bronze (bronze if lucky) weapons
10-20: chain/banded/black iron/bronze armor, bronze/fs/combine (used to be leet!) weapons
-maybe a unique magic drop
20-30: +steel plate/rubicite if lucky
-handful of unique magic drops
30+: generally start to fill out slots with unique gear one by one


This is exactly the way my SK progression was, with one exception. Someone gave me a stiletto of the bloodclaw at level 15 or so, which isn't that impressive of a weapon but it was a huge upgrade from my cracked staff at the time. Other than that, every piece of gear I acquired was farmed by me except for a dark reaver which was well within my power of farming within a group by the time I got it. In fact if I look at it, it looks like I was behind the curve in most categories.

As far as the retarded prices, well, I blame that primarily on poor game design with a lack of money sinks, but there's also the twinks that ruin the market for newer players.

[Agaron]

WTS water flask 8kpp, smithy hammer 10kpp, large sewing kit 15kpp, p99 auctions... priceless.

[jilena]

A few things seem a little skewed from live but then I don't think things were as well camped to shit on live as they are on here and less people were getting 50 as fast and rolling twinks either. *shrug*

[Dantes]

Luckily people are extremely helpful. If it weren't for the help of others, my gear would be in a sad state. Somebody gave me nearly a full set of bronze before level 5. I was able to trade it for banded since it was so heavy. Another nice person gave me 120pp for delivering 2 stacks of bone chips all the way from Freeport out to South Ro when I was level 6. Thanks to him I was able to get a bladed thulian claw as my first magic weapon.

Since then I've been trying to save up plat for an Obsidian Shard. When I first started I would commonly see them for 300pp, now they seem to be 500pp all the time. I hope and pray I can sweet talk somebody into helping me out and letting one go for 300.

[astarothel]

Since then I've been trying to save up plat for an Obsidian Shard. When I first started I would commonly see them for 300pp, now they seem to be 500pp all the time. I hope and pray I can sweet talk somebody into helping me out and letting one go for 300.

Saw a couple people selling at 350 yesterday.

[astarothel]

Saw a couple people selling at 350 yesterday. Keep lookin ;)

[cerasa]

A few random points:

c) If the market is overpriced and stays that way without reaching equilibrium, it's because there's an overabundance of level 50's with cash to burn inflating the market on their alts, creating a heavy barrier to entry for non-50 buyers that are levelling up to 50 for the first time without access to that sort of plat from HG/phat lewt farming.

This quote is what I was asssuming is causing these high prices.

Someone told me that early on in this emulator, there was a plat dupe and the server veterans have A LOT of plat so there is inflation. Is there any truth to this rumor?

[President]

This quote is what I was asssuming is causing these high prices.

Someone told me that early on in this emulator, there was a plat dupe and the server veterans have A LOT of plat so there is inflation. Is there any truth to this rumor?

As far as I know most of the plat duping/exploiting was figured out, people were banned/rolled back as best they could.

I don't think the amount of money we see circulating has anything to do with a dupe or exploit as the numbers really aren't that high. Early on Bubbles(50 cleric) who was nice enough to give me a really cheap set of Fine Steel. After talking with him/her a lot longer, she said she eventually stopped advertising her ability to make this stuff as it wasn't beneficial to her. And what I mean by this is, the margin she made off taking her time to make a full set wasn't anything compared to the 400-500pp she said she would make an hour farming FG's.

I think its far more likely that the money we see here is because people are much more aware of the great farming spots, not just for gear but for plat, and use that to get the items they want. Instead of attempting to get a group to compete with the 24/7 enchanters camping at frenzy, they turn to farm FG's for a couple days to earn the 10-12k to buy one. This creates a lot more sales, and a lot more need for plat. Since if it was actual groups camping the fbss, the person who looted it would likely keep/use it and there would be no exchange of 10k plat. But since its an enchanter farming, there has to be a 10k exchange, which creates a need for someone to figure out how to farm 10k.

[Kinamur1999]

as far as dupe plat its all heresy unless they come forward.

I know that manastone/rubi were camped 24/7, and I've heard rumors of people with backpacks full in their bank though it sounds ludicrous. So I am sure that there are people that have no problem paying 2-3x the price items are ACTUALLY worth.

[astarothel]

as far as dupe plat its all heresy unless they come forward.

I know that manastone/rubi were camped 24/7, and I've heard rumors of people with backpacks full in their bank though it sounds ludicrous. So I am sure that there are people that have no problem paying 2-3x the price items are ACTUALLY worth.

Example from just last night:

"I'll give you 3 full sets of Rubicite for that RBB"

[Dantes]

That's funny. I would think that would drive the price down. Considering folks knew where these items were, knew how to camp them, and knew they were going to be nerfed and when. That would mean there's more of them available than were on live, and with less of a player population there's less buyers. More supply, less demand = lower price, right? /shrug

[astarothel]

For every 1 person that farmed them at the time there was 3 that didn't. That's on top of any new people that come along after them, and any that are removed from circulation via bans and quitting.

[Kinamur1999]

"I'll give you 3 full sets of Rubicite for that RBB"

So the guy camped in CT since day one, big deal?

[astarothel]

So the guy camped in CT since day one, big deal?

Not saying it is a big deal, just that there is a lot of accumulated wealth from people that put the time in.

[Lucrio40]

I just started myself and honestly I've not seen the really lowbie stuff get hit that hard. If anything, its actually a little bit cheaper than I remember. Bronze running 1pp per AC, Fine plate running around 4-6 pp per AC, I remember FP going for 10pp+ per AC.

It seems the mid level stuff is where its really starting to hurt. The Cracked Darkwood Shields, PGT's and that kind of stuff are quite absurd sometimes. However, as someone else said earlier, back on live, how many people just starting up had a PGT under level 10 anyway? I never got any items like that until I was well in my teens.

While I agree that the market is worse than it was on live around this time, I still think people are adjusting from modern EQ and other MMO's where early gear comes easy.

[Ripcord]

i tried to sell my old pgt the other night for 150 since i had no idea what they were going for. I got no tells after about 3min so gave up. Heres my offer: ill be in mistmore tonight from about 7-10pm eastern.. first person to get to me can have it, long as you can use it!

[PhelanKA]

While I agree that the market is worse than it was on live around this time, I still think people are adjusting from modern EQ and other MMO's where early gear comes easy.

That's pretty much the gist of it. People are spoiled by MMOs today. Hell, when I played EQ back in the day I was on the Rallos Zek server. I went from 1-50 solo (Necro) for the most part and almost fully nude since I never really had access to NO-DROP gear. Brutal doesn't even describe that by today's standards. Maybe severely masochistic, but I'll be damned if those 2 years weren't some of the most memorable gaming experiences I ever had. For better and for worse.

[guineapig]

That's pretty much the gist of it. People are spoiled by MMOs today. Hell, when I played EQ back in the day I was on the Rallos Zek server. I went from 1-50 solo (Necro) for the most part and almost fully nude since I never really had access to NO-DROP gear. Brutal doesn't even describe that by today's standards. Maybe severely masochistic, but I'll be damned if those 2 years weren't some of the most memorable gaming experiences I ever had. For better and for worse.

Makes you want to laugh at the amount of time and money some people are willing to spend in order to get an extra 10 mana or hitpoints. on their toon.

I love it!

[Ripcord]

edit: got off early find me in game from now till 10pm for a free pgt

[StinkyGreenBud]

On P99 there are two types of items auctioned: rubbish and over priced shit. Don't bother trying to play the market with dudes constantly spending hours of their life try to sell an Advisor Robe for 1.5k

I swear there's one transaction for every 50-100 /auctions. EC on live was way more fun because people were way less retarded about selling their crap.


It's pretty much cause fucktards from WoW got it in there head it's fun to inflate items. Especially newb shit.

[bullet]

It's pretty much cause fucktards from WoW got it in there head it's fun to inflate items. Especially newb shit.

Everquest just suXXorz.

Sorry.

:(

[soup]

It's pretty much cause fucktards from WoW got it in there head it's fun to inflate items. Especially newb shit.

See something you don't like on p99? Must be some damn WoW players!

[StinkyGreenBud]

See something you don't like on p99? Must be some damn WoW players!


And why not? Most of us, if not all have played WoW at some point. That garbage of a game has set the standard for mmo's for years to come.

[Combo]

And why not? Most of us, if not all have played WoW at some point. That garbage of a game has set the standard for mmo's for years to come.

The thing is, EQ (well, dikuMUD) set the standard for all future MMOs. WoW is an EQ clone.

And really the only differences between WoW and EQ when WoW launched were the lack of an XP-penalty for death, a lower time requirement to level cap (but not *that* much lower for your first character), and attempts to slow down mudflation with BoE/BoP gear and repair bill costs.

Really, WoW at release was just a vastly improved version of Luclin-era EQ.

And I don't care what anyone says, you're just plain lying if you think playing a Warrior or Rogue in EQ is more fun than playing one in WoW. Jesus, I don't know why they decided Warriors should be so boring...

[jilena]

Vanilla WoW is pretty much an improvement on EQ in every way. The one way it is not, is instanced vs shared content. This is the only reason to play EQ. Thx.

[astarothel]

Vanilla WoW is pretty much an improvement on EQ in every way. The one way it is not, is instanced vs shared content. This is the only reason to play EQ. Thx.

wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurlddd dragunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnzzzzz (and kazzak)

[Leokaiser]

wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurlddd dragunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnzzzzz (and kazzak)

I had many an epic PvP battle over Azuregos. Once a Mage killed 27 of our raid members with a single blast wave...

Such is the price of curiosity.

[astarothel]

knocked off cliffs in azshara or from the top of the rise in duskwood. soooooooooooo amazing.

[astarothel]

well, provided you were the one doing it or had levi.

[soup]

And why not? Most of us, if not all have played WoW at some point. That garbage of a game has set the standard for mmo's for years to come.

I just think it's hilarious how a lot of people on this server love to blame WoW every time someone is a douche or a bad player.

I just got trained! Must be a damn WoW player!
Items too expensive, damn WoW players!
My group sucks, they all must play WoW!

Also, your logic of "most if not all of us have played WoW at some point" is laughable too. By that same logic we could blame oxygen breathing for everything dumb that happens. Why not? We've all breathed oxygen at some point.

[Dantes]

Never played WoW. Haven't even seen the game aside from screenshots.

[soup]

The thing is, EQ (well, dikuMUD) set the standard for all future MMOs. WoW is an EQ clone.

And really the only differences between WoW and EQ when WoW launched were the lack of an XP-penalty for death, a lower time requirement to level cap (but not *that* much lower for your first character), and attempts to slow down mudflation with BoE/BoP gear and repair bill costs.

Really, WoW at release was just a vastly improved version of Luclin-era EQ.

And I don't care what anyone says, you're just plain lying if you think playing a Warrior or Rogue in EQ is more fun than playing one in WoW. Jesus, I don't know why they decided Warriors should be so boring...
So true.

I also like how people say WoW is easy mode and EQ is so much harder than WoW. EQ isn't harder than WoW at all, it's just less convenient.

I wonder how long it will take for someone to say to me "Then why don't you play WoW then if you like it so much!" and feel like they've made some kind of (asinine) point.

[Combo]

Instancing seemed dumb at first, but then you realize:

a.) It prevents guild bitching (see: this server).
b.) It actually adds to immersion.
c.) With BoE/BoP it doesn't damage the economy.

I still love Classic EQ, but I love it more BECAUSE of its quirks and flaws, not in spite of them.

[Dabamf]

Since we're talking about random crap...Most fun thing in WoW:

Waiting at Naxx zone in with an ele shaman, and whenever a group of enemies flies up you thunderstorm them out the doorway to their death 1000 feet below.

I imagine mind controlling people off cliffs was equally as fun, though I never did it.

[Combo]

I imagine mind controlling people off cliffs was equally as fun, though I never did it.

It was very fun.

[girth]

Mind Control/Cliff jumping was amazing in Arathi Basin and many world pvp areas.

[girth]

Oh yeah, Alterac Valley alliance bridge too.

Also, you're damn right I say that EQ is harder than WoW. You don't rate PvP in one game against another in terms of difficulty so obviously this is about PvE. EQ is easily harder PvE than WoW. Leveling up it isn't even close, EQ is WAY tougher. Raiding, early EQ may seem easy now, but you must not have played anything past PoP if you think WoW is tougher.

I have raided everything in WoW except a few hard modes in ICC, and some of the end bosses in Naxx(level 60 version). I'm telling you right now, even GoD was tougher IMO.

Hell dude, in EQ nobody even beat GoD until OoW released except for RoI on the progression server, and I'm told that took them a LONG time.

[ClamSmasher22]

Just read wikipedia info about GoD, and it says that GoD had content for lvl 70's but the cap at that time was 65. Some mistake or something. OoW increased the cap to 70.

Would explain why GoD wasn't beat until OoW came out. I never played either one, so don't know from personal experience, just what I read.

[soup]

Oh yeah, Alterac Valley alliance bridge too.

Also, you're damn right I say that EQ is harder than WoW. You don't rate PvP in one game against another in terms of difficulty so obviously this is about PvE. EQ is easily harder PvE than WoW. Leveling up it isn't even close, EQ is WAY tougher. Raiding, early EQ may seem easy now, but you must not have played anything past PoP if you think WoW is tougher.

I have raided everything in WoW except a few hard modes in ICC, and some of the end bosses in Naxx(level 60 version). I'm telling you right now, even GoD was tougher IMO.

Hell dude, in EQ nobody even beat GoD until OoW released except for RoI on the progression server, and I'm told that took them a LONG time.

Well, first of all, saying PoP or GoD was harder than WoW isn't really relevant in a discussion of WoW vs. EQ difficulty in regards to this server, since this server goes to Velious.

Secondly, if fights are scaled to the wrong level, that doesn't mean the mechanics of the fight are harder, it means the scale of the fight is wrong.

[runlvlzero]

In answer to your original question OP:

Here are the reasons.

1. Everyone pro already knows how to get their own stuff and that they don't need it until they can camp it themselves
2. The majority of stuff being sold in EC is for twinks or coming off of newblet twink brats of some parents children who have no frakkin clue about what it actually takes to get this shit (which is not much in reality)

My suggestion, just ignore it, stuff that matters you can get at cost, like banded armor and bronze you can usually find on vendors in the appropriate areas were it drops/main cities etc... other items, if you see a deal be happy.

Hell for less then 200pp at lvl 20, I had banded, bone armplates, legplates, a decent 2hs and more, the real lack of gear for tanks anways is in the late 20's and 30's because its really only your solro gear or a really good weapon your looking for, the yaks in guk are perma camped so that sucks there... but hey you can easily enough farm the money needed for a yak or get a couple caster items to trade by the time you "need" one... in your 40's

To all the elitist asshats out there bitching about people without the most uberest gear, go get a life, not everyone has parents to handmedown shit too out of the guildbank, and a group can kill Fire Giants in solb with a naked tank with 2 gnoll whips if they so desired, the game is not that hard.

[Combo]

Hell dude, in EQ nobody even beat GoD until OoW released

Devil's advocate here, but that's probably because no one cared to. Everyone I knew in EQ quit the game when the abortion that was GoD was released.

EQ cockblocked raiders starting with Luclin. Not to be ultra uber challenging and thus rewarding, but because the content simply wasn't in the game yet. As a result, you got stuff like Vex Thal keying, ridiculously hard bosses that were later nerfed directly or indirectly, and other silly holding patterns designed to buy Sony time to actually implement the content they promised. It happened for every expansion up until WoW appeared and put Sony's shenanigans to shame.

If you played WoW during the Burning Crusade and went to SSC or TK (The Eye) during the first three-five months you would have seen that the zones simply weren't finished -- ridiculously difficult trash pulls that respawned every hour to slow progress, final bosses that actually didn't drop loot, etc. Same story with AQ40 and the whole War Effort + Opening Rod event. Blizzard was just buying time to actually finish content. Then Tigole got fired and Blizzard suddenly decided to be upfront and honest with content (ie, you would get a message when trying to zone into Black Temple that the zone isn't done yet, sorry).

Was Ragnaros harder than Nagafen? Was Vox harder than Neferian? Was the Avatar of War worse than Patchwerk? I really can't answer those questions. I was 15 years old on a 56k connection when Nagafen was just a whispered legend amongst lowbies. My friends and I printed out maps to zones because it took so long for pages to load. Information on how to even *do* encounters was hard to get due not only to the secrecy surrounding functional tactics, but also because of the state of technology at the time.

Anyway, my point is, I don't really consider intentionally bugging encounters or tweaking them WAY out of the difficulty curve as an issue of "challenge." It's just a ripoff. Sony, Blizzard, and even Verant itself have all been guilty of this at one time or another... but Sony definitely was the worst.