Any Young-Earth Creationists?

[Kagatob]

Besides Alarti I mean.

[Rhambuk]

Sorry I took no part in creating the earth.

Thanks for the oceans and mountains alarti, they are pretty.

[Swish]

Terraforming on Star Trek looked fun, technically you'd be the god of the planet.

[Alarti0001]

Sorry I took no part in creating the earth.

Thanks for the oceans and mountains alarti, they are pretty.

No problem. Although, this e-stalker kagotab is beginning to worry me.

[Yapas]

Nice sig Swish =)

[Rhambuk]

maybe hes just a religious follower of the creator.

Alarti demands sacrifice!

[Zadrian]

maybe hes just a religious follower of the creator.

Alarti demands sacrifice!

KALIMA

http://gifsoup.com/view1/3207699/kalima-o.gif

[Lazortag]

There's a guy named Rushmore on the pvp server who's a YEC. It's important to keep track of them in case they try to breed or something.

[Rhambuk]

what is yec some nuitjob religion?

[Ephirith]

It's an attempt to reconcile classic theology with overwhelming scientific evidence.

-

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4714/earfe.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/earfe.jpg/)

-

In the USA, some of the more religious states try to teach it in public schools.

[Rhambuk]

so...yes? some nutjob religion?

[Ephirith]

so...yes? some nutjob religion?

Yea, I guess you could look at it that way.

-

Since 1982, between 40% and 50% of adults in the United States say they hold the creationist view that "God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years" when Gallup asked for their views on the origin and development of human beings.[8] As of 2012, the percentage of believers decreases as the level of education increases. Only 25% of respondents with postgraduate degrees believed compared with 52% of those with a high school education or less.[9] A 2011 Gallup survey reports that 30% of U.S. adults interpret the Bible literally.[10]

[Rhambuk]

haha kids were getting to smart and not believing in god, so we need to start brainwashing them while their young.

[theaetatus]

so...yes? some nutjob religion?

As opposed to the other sensible religions?

Why bother singling out this particular brand of Christianity or any particular religion here? They're all equally rational.

[Rhambuk]

As opposed to the other sensible religions?

Why bother singling out this particular brand of Christianity or any particular religion here? They're all equally rational.

I believe they're all equally irrational, but religion is just a matter of opinion.

[Hailto]

It's an attempt to reconcile classic theology with overwhelming scientific evidence.

-

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4714/earfe.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/earfe.jpg/)

-

In the USA, some of the more religious states try to teach it in public schools.

This pic actually makes me angry, hope thats not legit.

[Rhambuk]

This pic actually makes me angry, hope thats not legit.

I agree makes me quite "mad"

[Ravager]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[Rhambuk]

depending on which school you went to, maybe god will take you to heaven early and you wont have to live here anymore :rolleyes:

[Ravager]

Afterlife? If I thought I had to go through a whole other life I'd kill myself right now.

[Rhambuk]

Afterlife? If I thought I had to go through a whole other life I'd kill myself right now.

Bender? lol

[Ravager]

Bender is the only god I'll follow. He made his own religion, with blackjack. And hookers! In fact, forget the religion.

[Rhambuk]

replace religion with booze and im down

[copenhagen]

rham want some spice bro?

[Rhambuk]

nah clean now but thanks.

funny story the company i worked for, the one with mentally disabled adults, is all about allowing them to do what they want because its their right, so one of them was into spice but he couldnt afford it one day. He went to walmart and bought spice off the shelf like literally oregano and smoked it. Couldn't stop him it was his right.

i lost my shit

[Rhambuk]

I'm a creationist but not a young earth one. In fact I don't see why anyone would be since the Bible never once mentions the age of the Earth and the ridiculous amount of evidence which blatantly suggests the earth is clearly very old. It's pretty obvious that the Universe is a creation since things don't just create themselves. It's a proven impossibility that something as advanced as DNA could form naturally. It is in fact so advanced that the only logical conclusion for its existence is that it is the creation of a being with intelligence beyond measure.

thats fine, just keep it out of public schools.

[Hailto]

It's pretty obvious that the Universe is a creation since things don't just create themselves.


Who created god? Don't give me the "he always existed" cop out either, if you want to make a statement like that you have to form your argument within it.

[Ephirith]

It is in fact so advanced that the only logical conclusion for its existence is that it is the creation of a being with intelligence beyond measure.

So what created the being with intelligence beyond measure? It's a proven impossibility that something as advanced as a being with intelligence beyond measure could form naturally. The only logical conclusion for its existence is that it is the creation of a being with intelligence beyond being beyond measure.

[Daldolma]

I'm a creationist but not a young earth one. In fact I don't see why anyone would be since the Bible never once mentions the age of the Earth and the ridiculous amount of evidence which blatantly suggests the earth is clearly very old. It's pretty obvious that the Universe is a creation since things don't just create themselves. It's a proven impossibility that something as advanced as DNA could form naturally. It is in fact so advanced that the only logical conclusion for its existence is that it is the creation of a being with intelligence beyond measure.

^ creationism confirmed scientifically proven, deal with it heathens

[Ravager]

DNA is a self organizing system and self organizing systems occur naturally without any kind of design. Just because something can't be readily explained, it doesn't make it logical to conclude that the only explaination is magic.

[Ephirith]

http://imageshack.us/a/img705/815/1344233812703.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/1344233812703.jpg/)

billions and billions of years of stellar evolution, anything is possible m8ies

[Rhambuk]

Why would you want to keep the truth of reality out of public schools? So basically you support the dumbing down of people?

because I don't want to see my tax dollars wasted on teaching kids nonsense?

[Ravager]

Nevermind. I've been won over by the argument that things that we can't comprehend at first glance can only be explained by something even more incomprehensible.

[Hailto]

Why would you want to keep the truth of reality out of public schools? So basically you support the dumbing down of people?



If God created the physical universe then that means he is not a physical being himself and therefor isn't subject to the rules of the universe. Everything within the universe including the universe itself has a beginning and an end and as such, is a finite creation. God represents the infinite, the eternal, no beginning nor end. It's not a cop out at all, just logic really. Something had to of always existed otherwise there would only be nothing. We know this something isn't the universe because we know the universe had a beginning just like our planet and our sun had a beginning.


You're not arguing logically. You can't just say "god isn't bound by these rules because he is god", that IS a cop out and it has no place in logical discourse. You're essentially making an argument and then elevating your own position above everything else so it can't be questioned.

[Ravager]

That's because god created logic and therefore is not bound by its rules. Logically, god is illogical.

[Ephirith]

If God created the physical universe then that means he is not a physical being himself and therefor isn't subject to the rules of the universe. Everything within the universe including the universe itself has a beginning and an end and as such, is a finite creation. God represents the infinite, the eternal, no beginning nor end. It's not a cop out at all, just logic really. Something had to of always existed otherwise there would only be nothing. We know this something isn't the universe because we know the universe had a beginning just like our planet and our sun had a beginning.

Ok, so:

You: God created the universe.

Me: Who created God?

You: It doesn't matter, when you create the universe, you don't need to be created.

How the FUCK is that logical? That's nothing more than belief.

[OMGWTF420]

e-mc2 or whatever, the big bang happened because physic's demanded it happen. its science, not god. just because our minds cant grasp the concepts of life before the big bang yet does not mean there isnt an explanation. writing it off as some sort of god or supernatural being or something we cant understand is selling ourselves short imo

[Hitchens]

Why would you want to keep the truth of reality out of public schools? So basically you support the dumbing down of people?


http://i.imgur.com/VHY0kyz.png

[Ravager]

e-mc2 or whatever, the big bang happened because physic's demanded it happen. its science, not god. just because our minds cant grasp the concepts of life before the big bang yet does not mean there isnt an explanation. writing it off as some sort of god or supernatural being or something we cant understand is selling ourselves short imo

There is a god. Heather be thy name. Schwing!

[Ephirith]

You know what's silly, let's say the big bang happened:

At that instant, every action for the entire life of the universe was determined. With sufficient capacity to perceive and comprehend information, one could plot the future trajectory of a single particle, or every particle, from the moment of origination, into eternity.

You were always going to make the decisions you did, and a being with a godlike capacity for perception could have observed the universe billions of years ago, and seen an almost infinitely complex string of events and interactions creating, and leading up to, the specific conditions and characteristics of your life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Ladies and gentlemen, free will is empirically false, and if an infinitely capable God manipulated your life, chances are he did so at the instant of creation and then never again.

How does it feel knowing you do what you will, but you don't will what you will?

[vaylorie]

Ok, so:

You: God created the universe.

Me: Who created God?

You: It doesn't matter, when you create the universe, you don't need to be created.

How the FUCK is that logical? That's nothing more than belief.

Ok, so:

You: Life in modern form was purely natural, infinitesimal chance over time = infinite complexity.

Me: Well, where did the original matter come from?

You: Nobody knows.

Me: Could it have been created?

You: There is absolutely no creator.

Me: Then how did it get here?

You: Nobody knows, we just can't understand it.

Me: You sure it couldn't have been a creator god?

You: No, it certainly wasn't a creator God.

Ephirith, Dropping logic bombs!

[Rhambuk]

well I'll be "god" damned to just sit by and watch teachers lie to my kids.

[Ephirith]

Me: Well, where did the original matter come from?

You: Nobody knows.

Me: Could it have been created?

You: Yes
Ephirith, Dropping logic bombs!

Actually if you cut it off right there (before you put words in my mouth) you actually have a pretty accurate depiction of my position.

You see, you're claiming someone created the universe. I'm claiming we don't know how the universe was created, and that our lack of knowledge doesn't imply a creator. Those are hugely different.

[Ravager]

You know what's silly, let's say the big bang happened:

At that instant, every action for the entire life of the universe was determined. With sufficient capacity to perceive and comprehend information, one could plot the future trajectory of a single particle, or every particle, from the moment of origination, into eternity.

You were always going to make the decisions you did, and a being with a godlike capacity for perception could have observed the universe billions of years ago, and seen an almost infinitely complex string of events and interactions creating, and leading up to, the specific conditions and characteristics of your life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Ladies and gentlemen, free will is empirically false, and if an infinitely capable God manipulated your life, chances are he did so at the instant of creation and then never again.

How does it feel knowing you do what you will, but you don't will what you will?

I'm clinging to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg_uncertainty_principle

[Ephirith]

and that our existence is ultimately meaningless is selling ourselves short imo.

It bothers me deeply that you need an arguably malevolent, neurotic God to give your life meaning. Any God at all really.

[Rhambuk]

I'm clinging to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg_uncertainty_principle

science? gtfoutta here!

and for the sake of fun can we stop reffering to the creator as "god" and something for humorous like optimus prime or papa smurf

[vaylorie]

I'm claiming we don't know how the universe was created, and that our lack of knowledge doesn't imply a creator.

So you are arguing in support of the probability of a creator then. Welcome brother. :)

Given your unbiased examination of observed facts, you have a hypothesis that leads you to what conclusion? That regardless of how we arrived at life as we know it currently, original matter suddenly appeared or instead that it was created somehow? Just wondering the most unbiased logical conclusion here with the highest probability of accuracy given unknown information.

[Rhambuk]

I seriously don't get how you can have such poor reasoning skills. You say we don't know how the universe was created, at the same time admitting that it was created at some point. Yet you cannot make the simple leap of logic that suggests that anything that is created has a creator. You were created, therefor you have a creator. Who was your creator? Your mother and your father. The computer you're using was also created. Therefor it has a creator.

The universe was created, therefor it has a creator. The science is irrelevant in the matter. Science is merely the reverse engineering of the mechanisms which govern the physical world. Science has no jurisdiction outside of physical reality and therefor could never be used to measure anything beyond it. Since we know the universe didn't always exist, we know there is something beyond physical reality.

but who created the creator?

[Zadrian]

Ok, so:

You: Life in modern form was purely natural, infinitesimal chance over time = infinite complexity.

Me: Well, where did the original matter come from?

You: Nobody knows.

Me: Could it have been created?

You: There is absolutely no creator.

Me: Then how did it get here?

You: Nobody knows, we just can't understand it.

Me: You sure it couldn't have been a creator god?

You: No, it certainly wasn't a creator God.

Ephirith, Dropping logic bombs!+

I'm sorry, but this is really stupid and shows an intense lack of knowledge in all life sciences.

The basic elements are theorized to be formed during the big bang (Helium and Hydrogen) then through many processes that are far too detailed for me to start explaining to you over this forum, we have ourselves the table of elements, which also happens to contain the elements of life (as we know it on Earth)

inb4 it's just a theory! (Please look up scientific theory and what it entails)

Sure, you can say, "but how did the big bang happen? It has to be gods, or humanoid lizards rait??!" The answer is simple, we have yet to find out.

Look at it this way, the world makes a lot more sense when seeking knowledge based on the big bang theory... Meaning that the way it is described to us post-big bang makes a lot more sense because we can see all of the evidence. Scientific discoveries can actually be viewed.

The universe does not function as it is written in the bible, or any other religious texts (world-wide floods, dude carrying the sun in a boat, some folks living on a mountain, or some asshole offering you 72 virgins for blowing yourself up ((which I heard isn't even in the Qu'ran)))

[OMGWTF420]

big z!

[Ravager]

I seriously don't get how you can have such poor reasoning skills. You say we don't know how the universe was created, at the same time admitting that it was created at some point. Yet you cannot make the simple leap of logic that suggests that anything that is created has a creator. You were created, therefor you have a creator. Who was your creator? Your mother and your father. The computer you're using was also created. Therefor it has a creator.

The universe was created, therefor it has a creator. The science is irrelevant in the matter. Science is merely the reverse engineering of the mechanisms which govern the physical world. Science has no jurisdiction outside of physical reality and therefor could never be used to measure anything beyond it. Since we know the universe didn't always exist, we know there is something beyond physical reality.

Time is kind of a squishy concept that probably doesn't exist outside the scope of this universe being it's one of its dimensions and all. This isn't to say that there is an eternal god, but I am suggesting the idea that the universe has always existed, since all time would be confined to it, but I'm just pontificating. So, if the universe has always existed, then there is no need for your creator, by the logic of your arguments.

[Rhambuk]

Time is kind of a squishy concept that probably doesn't exist outside the scope of this universe being it's one of its dimensions and all. This isn't to say that there is an eternal god, but I am suggesting the idea that the universe has always existed, since all time would be confined to it, but I'm just pontificating. So, if the universe has always existed, then there is no need for your creator, by the logic of your arguments.

No! It's impossible! EVERYTHING has a creator!

[Rhambuk]

I just realized I create sperm, dna, thus I am god.

Bow down or feel my wrath

[Ephirith]

Yet you cannot make the simple leap of logic that suggests that anything that is created has a creator.

That's not a leap of logic, that's a reprehensible miscarriage of logic.

"Anything that is created has a creator".

Then your creator had to have a creator right? No? Exempt from your own rule?

My position is simply this: We don't know how the observable universe was created.

I'm not making a claim. I don't need evidence, and I don't need to defend jack shit, because my position isn't rooted in half-baked beliefs backed up by circular logic and selective reasoning.

If you're going to tell me an omnipotent being created the universe, you better have some evidence better than "Well I don't understand how else it could have happened!". Show me evidence and I'll gladly believe you.

That regardless of how we arrived at life as we know it currently, original matter suddenly appeared or instead that it was created somehow? Just wondering the most unbiased logical conclusion here with the highest probability of accuracy given unknown information.

Again, the same problem arises when you ask: creator suddenly appeared or instead that it was created somehow? Why not skip a step? But no more cop-outs!

[vaylorie]

Sure, you can say, "but how did the big bang happen? It has to be gods, or humanoid lizards rait??!" The answer is simple, we have yet to find out.

Look at it this way, the world makes a lot more sense when seeking knowledge based on the big bang theory... Meaning that the way it is described to us post-big bang makes a lot more sense because we can see all of the evidence. Scientific discoveries can actually be viewed.

The universe does not function as it is written in the bible, or any other religious texts (world-wide floods, dude carrying the sun in a boat, some folks living on a mountain, or some asshole offering you 72 virgins for blowing yourself up ((which I heard isn't even in the Qu'ran)))

A couple things to start. 1) I'm not talking about the big bang in any way, rather the origination of matter that would be required to substantiate a big bang. 2) I'm not making an argument towards a Christian worldview in any way.

You're making a number of stereotypical assumptions under the guise that an argument questioning if matter could have been created is an abomination to all 'life sciences'. Relax and try to embrace independent thoughtful discussion as opposed to insult.

I do find it humorous that in posts such as yours there is a blatant acknowledgement of nearly complete ignorance about the working of the universe accompanied by a direct assertion that it is certainly not what is described by any religion.

[Rhambuk]

its easier to believe that a creator appeared out of nothing than the universe...somehow

[Hailto]

Ephirith is dunking on you fools.

[vaylorie]

My position is simply this: We don't know how the observable universe was created.

Well said, the universe was created somehow, but science is unable to explain it to date.

[Rhambuk]

Well said, the universe was created somehow, but science is unable to explain it to date.

making something up doesnt explain it any better

[Ephirith]

Sorry but this isn't true at all. Someone knowing the outcome of an event has zero impact on your free will ability to make that choice in the first place. It's no different then saying that having a gun to your head means you have no free will. Even with a gun at your head you still have a choice. The only reasonable argument that could be made against free will are babies since they essentially don't have the ability to exercise their free will and are entirely dependent upon the free will of other beings to care for them.

Why goes on when you make a decision? Your brain chemistry, your upbringing, the state of your consciousness, all coalesce to produce an outcome. But all of those things are determined by external influences. Brain chemistry, by genetics and environment. Your aggregate experiences shaped you to be a certain way. The state of your consciousness is the way it is because of all the events that happened before and during your life, including the construction of your genetic code.

Again, you are choosing what to do, but you aren't choosing what to choose.

You don't have an ability to make a choice other than the one dictated by almost infinitely complex, linear interactions of causality stretching back to the beginning of time, or infinitely.

[Ravager]

Belief in a god by its nature is close-minded and ignorant because you only ever consider a single possibility that has no evidence beyond myths and the song and dance of charlatans who are allowed to tell you what to think while your skull is still soft. Religious people can never be objective for this reason. Because they can't be objective in their reasoning, they aren't rational in their reasoning. And since their reasoning is fundamentally irrational, pretty much every argument they make in favor of magical super beings with no evidence to back their claims can be discounted with a healthy dose of skepticism.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. ~Christopher Hitchens

[Rhambuk]

in 50 years when I die if i go to heaven and see you there ill concede.

in the meantime im going to bed

[Zadrian]

A couple things to start. 1) I'm not talking about the big bang in any way, rather the origination of matter that would be required to substantiate a big bang. 2) I'm not making an argument towards a Christian worldview in any way.

You're making a number of stereotypical assumptions under the guise that an argument questioning if matter could have been created is an abomination to all 'life sciences'. Relax and try to embrace independent thoughtful discussion as opposed to insult.

I do find it humorous that in posts such as yours there is a blatant acknowledgement of nearly complete ignorance about the working of the universe accompanied by a direct assertion that it is certainly not what is described by any religion.

So your original post was not at all implying that you think there could be a creator? Or were you just playing devil's advocate because it was fun? All you did was put words into the dude's mouth. If you want to have a discussion, then have a discussion, but don't come at me as if you posted something other than some hypothetical "conversation."

Stating that we do not have an answer how the big bang came to be is not an "acknowledgement of ignorance about the working universe." That is just the fact of the matter. Let me give you an easy example of what I meant:

We didn't at first think, "Ok there was a big bang, how can we prove it?"
We first observed that the universe is expanding, and then made our conclusions that at a certain point in time, the universe must have been dense.

There are many models and experiments to suggest this. There are even roadblocks in certain concepts because recently, it was discovered that the expansion of the universe may actually be speeding up, unlike previously though - so the universe is ever changing which is why I cannot give you definitive answers (even if I had the knowledge of Stephen Hawking).


You were asking an impossible question about the origin of the Big bang, because there currently is no answer (which would then possibly lead into the trap of, "well then it COULD be a creator") but that doesn't really work because, what I was saying, in somewhat of a comical attempt, was that the way the universe was viewed in ancient religious texts, as well as contemporary ones, is not parallel with how humanity views the world and the universe. The way our world and universe function is a lot more agreeable with what life and physical sciences teach us with our current evidence.

It can easily be said that there can be an alternate plane where some spiritual beings exist, but the answer to that is only peoples' faiths.

[Hailto]

in 50 years when I die if i go to heaven and see you there ill concede.

in the meantime im going to bed

You're going to burn in hell for denying our lord and savior jesus christ.

[Ravager]

It's not making something up, it's simply an exercise in logic. In the physical universe, everything requires a creator. There is no exception. God is the creator of the physical universe and therefor would not be subject to it's laws. This makes it perfectly logical that God does not require a creator since he is THE creator. God is the original source from which all things come from.

You cannot say the universe always existed because science(the very thing you proclaim to worship) states that this is false. First of all there's the big bang which suggests the universe began at some point. Second of all there are the laws of thermodynamics which tell us there is a finite amount of energy within the universe and the fact that it is in a constant state of entropy until the inevitable death of the universe and thus all things within it.

You know what happened at the big bang? I'd like to know! Was time tick tick ticking just the same as it is now, or are the physics of it undetermined with our current understanding? Right now there's some talk about how the universe will end if a particle they just discovered turns out to be the Higg's Boson and it turns out to have a certain mass and it points to the universe blinking out of existance in a few billion years. No universe, no time. So, in the framework of time, yes, the universe has always existed and that is not in itself illogical. I'm no astrophysist, btw, I'm just a guy who likes to play EQ and watch Nova.

[vaylorie]

So your original post was not at all implying that you think there could be a creator? Or were you just playing devil's advocate because it was fun? All you did was put words into the dude's mouth. If you want to have a discussion, then have a discussion, but don't come at me as if you posted something other than some hypothetical "conversation."

Stating that we do not have an answer how the big bang came to be is not an "acknowledgement of ignorance about the working universe." That is just the fact of the matter. Let me give you an easy example of what I meant:

We didn't at first think, "Ok there was a big bang, how can we prove it?"
We first observed that the universe is expanding, and then made our conclusions that at a certain point in time, the universe must have been dense.

There are many models and experiments to suggest this. There are even roadblocks in certain concepts because recently, it was discovered that the expansion of the universe may actually be speeding up, unlike previously though - so the universe is ever changing which is why I cannot give you definitive answers (even if I had the knowledge of Stephen Hawking).


You were asking an impossible question about the origin of the Big bang, because there currently is no answer (which would then possibly lead into the trap of, "well then it COULD be a creator") but that doesn't really work because, what I was saying, in somewhat of a comical attempt, was that the way the universe was viewed in ancient religious texts, as well as contemporary ones, is not parallel with how humanity views the world and the universe. The way our world and universe function is a lot more agreeable with what life and physical sciences teach us with our current evidence.

It can easily be said that there can be an alternate plane where some spiritual beings exist, but the answer to that is only peoples' faiths.

My original post was calling out inconsistencies in numerous arguments in this thread, albeit in a jovial tone. My point, which you still don't understand, is that the question at the time was not if the big bag happened, nor was it related to the process that eventually developed the theory. The question was about matter coming into existence by means of it being created, not what happened to the matter once it already existed.

Without making any presumptions regarding any religion, one can say that matter was created at some point by something or someone. Stating that this leads into a 'trap' that it could be a creator is an obvious conclusion of something being created.

While I must not have the robust understanding of religious views regarding the way in which the universe works that you do, I can say that it is possible if not probable that matter was at one point created. This to me being the most logical explanation available at the time through science for the appearance of matter. Who or what created it and what happened after that would be a different discussion.

Also notable in your post is the acknowledgement that the universe is constantly changing but that the Big Bang is credible given the observations over a (relatively) short period of time.

[Zadrian]

My original post was calling out inconsistencies in numerous arguments in this thread, albeit in a jovial tone. My point, which you still don't understand, is that the question at the time was not if the big bag happened, nor was it related to the process that eventually developed the theory. The question was about matter coming into existence by means of it being created, not what happened to the matter once it already existed.

Without making any presumptions regarding any religion, one can say that matter was created at some point by something or someone. Stating that this leads into a 'trap' that it could be a creator is an obvious conclusion of something being created.

While I must not have the robust understanding of religious views regarding the way in which the universe works that you do, I can say that it is possible if not probable that matter was at one point created. This to me being the most logical explanation available at the time through science for the appearance of matter. Who or what created it and what happened after that would be a different discussion.

Also notable in your post is the acknowledgement that the universe is constantly changing but that the Big Bang is credible given the observations over a (relatively) short period of time.


On the contrary, i did understand your point, which is why i said that there currently is no answer to your question.

What I fail to see is your logic for the creation for the pre-big bang conditions. I mean, to me it seems like there is just as much a chance that a "creator" exists as there is for these conditions to just blink into existance.

The only reason for settling on either answer is to not drive oneself crazy with questions.

The only logical answer is that none of us will know anything until we die.

[Daldolma]

^ creationism confirmed scientifically proven, deal with it heathens

[Zadrian]

Evolution.

Also, please stop stating that just because there are inanimate objects that humans created, that must mean there is a god. That's a bad analogy.

Your idea of DNA is also somewhat innacurate.

I found this article for you.

http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21528795.500-dna-could-have-existed-long-before-life-itself.html

[Hailto]

How is there no evidence? There is so much evidence that I seriously can't believe that people still don't believe in God in 2013.

http://thegboatdotnet.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/8p10n.gif?w=479

[Lorraine]

Lightning - Zeus wills it.
Tsunami - Poseidon wills it.

Univerce - God wills it.


Welcome to three thousand years ago?
You're arguing semantics. Deep down, god (gods) is (are) nothing more than mankinds inherent need to explain what can not be explained by the current (present and past) eras resources and information. It's an answer to a 'need' therefore created by us, for us.

[Taresh]

Magic is just science we dont understand~

[Tenlaar]

Actually the gods of ancient mythology were real people that actually existed and still do. They are simply very advanced beings that were called gods because of their technology. They too however were created by God but this is a completely different discussion. I will say this tho, there is an ancient text by Apollo stating that the gods were ordered by Jesus to leave the planet, several hundred years before he was born. So how does Apollo...a supposedly fake person, know about or even have a conversation with someone who hasn't even been born yet? Unless of course Apollo was a real person and Jesus really is who he says he is.

Oh good lawd, and I thought this thread had already taken every turn on stupid road.

[Taresh]

Nocturne is a pretty successful troll, 9/10, got a lot of bites.

[Hailto]

Pretty pathetic how you dumb ass atheists proclaim to be intelligent and yet the best argument you can supply consists of posting gif's or logic consisting of exactly what you accuse creationists as using. Just know that you're literally holding back the entire human race with your blatant stupidity.

Yeah, atheists are definitely holding back the human race. Why don't you go ahead and name some backwards practices that atheists typically engage in. I can start naming off the same done in the name of religion and we will see who comes up with the longer list. Religious belief has no place in modern society and contributes absolutely zero to further human advancement. Make a stupid argument, and you will get a stupid response.

[Hailto]

Actually the gods of ancient mythology were real people that actually existed and still do. They are simply very advanced beings that were called gods because of their technology. They too however were created by God but this is a completely different discussion. I will say this tho, there is an ancient text by Apollo stating that the gods were ordered by Jesus to leave the planet, several hundred years before he was born. So how does Apollo...a supposedly fake person, know about or even have a conversation with someone who hasn't even been born yet? Unless of course Apollo was a real person and Jesus really is who he says he is.

Also please don't post anything this fucking stupid and then attempt to insult the intelligence of anyone else.


I really hope you are trolling.

[Clark]

Yeah, atheists are definitely holding back the human race. Why don't you go ahead and name some backwards practices that atheists typically engage in. I can start naming off the same done in the name of religion and we will see who comes up with the longer list. Religious belief has no place in modern society and contributes absolutely zero to further human advancement. Make a stupid argument, and you will get a stupid response.

^ didn't have enough love, guidance, and friendship growing up rofl, so he blames the world

[Taresh]

It's a pretty well known fact no one loves Hailto.

Unless he gives me 10$ paypal.

[Hailto]

It's a pretty well known fact no one loves Hailto.

Unless he gives me 10$ paypal.

Not paying for shaman sex change.

[Hailto]

^ didn't have enough love, guidance, and friendship growing up rofl, so he blames the world

Not blaming the world, blaming adults who still have imaginary friends. Luckily that number is steadily decreasing.

[Taresh]

Not paying for shaman sex change.

think of the pandas

[Hailto]

Well actually everything I've said is already proven fact but just like every other controversial proven fact in history, the majority is always against it until one day it just becomes common sense. In fact let me give you a perfect example of how people like you are like a boulder for the human race that intelligent people like me have to carry.



So this guy discovers a way to save the lives of literally millions of people but because he couldn't explain it in a scientific manner, he was discredited and driven out of the medical community only to be imprisoned and taken to an asylum where he was beaten to death. Then literally just a few years after his death, Louis Pasteur discovered that germs were in fact the cause of infection and could prove it scientifically.

Soon, the medical community had no choice but to face the reality of the situation at which point they were like "lolz bro, turned out you were right about those germs, totally didn't mean to destroy your life, have you locked up and sent to an asylum. Oh and the whole beating you to death thing, again, my bad bro lolz".

Call me a troll, call me whatever you like. You're those same exact scum bags, just 200 years in the future. People thought Greek mythology was just that...a myth. Until the "mythical" City of Troy was actually discovered in this thing called "reality" just several decades ago, proving that not only Greek mythology, but all mythology, might actually be based on fact. Oh, how was the city of Troy discovered you ask? Well wouldn't you know, the guy actually took the books seriously and followed the clues in them! LOL What a fucking moron, right? Well guess what retards, he's now one of the most famous archaeologists of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVBzFjWywtg

Nail in the coffin right there really. Just a matter of time before the rest of mythology is proven to be based on fact and real history.

So tell me what advancement us athiestic dumb asses are holding back. You're making a pretty bold claim with that comparison. What is the religious world currently offering the community that science is scoffing at?

[Lorraine]

Call me a troll, call me whatever you like. You're those same exact scum bags, just 200 years in the future. People thought Greek mythology was just that...a myth. Until the "mythical" City of Troy was actually discovered in this thing called "reality" just several decades ago, proving that not only Greek mythology, but all mythology, might actually be based on fact. Oh, how was the city of Troy discovered you ask? Well wouldn't you know, the guy actually took the books seriously and followed the clues in them! LOL What a fucking moron, right? Well guess what retards, he's now one of the most famous archaeologists of all time.

Nail in the coffin right there really. Just a matter of time before the rest of mythology is proven to be based on fact and real history.


Θα μπορούσα να σου εξηγήσω ποιός ακριβώς είναι ο ορισμός της λέξης "Μυθολογία" αλλά δεν θα έχει κανένα νόημα σε αυτό το σημείο που έχεις φτάσει.

What? It's all greek to you, you say?
#dealwithit

[Ravager]

How is there no evidence? There is so much evidence that I seriously can't believe that people still don't believe in God in 2013. With the vast amount of scientific knowledge we possess you would think it should be obvious by the 2nd grade. DNA is literally the smoking gun for God, it seriously can't make his existence anymore obvious.

The first of every living thing had to have been created by a being that is not bound by the laws of the physical universe. According to the scientific law known as the law of biogenesis, all living things MUST come from another living thing of the same type. For example, cows will always produce more cows and cows will only ever come from other cows. Same goes for every single living thing from dogs to cats and the entire human race.

Think about it logically, all infants REQUIRE the care of their parents. Who then cared for the first infant? Also, where did it come from if it's parents don't exist? This is more evidence for God since according to the very laws of science, life shouldn't technically even be possible. I'm not invoking God simply because "I don't know how, therefor God did it". I'm invoking God because based on the evidence, the only way some things are possible is if they were done by a being capable of doing anything.

How about an analogy maybe? We all play EQ. It is a world that was created, in this case the creators name is Verant instead of God. Nothing in this world happened randomly or by chance, it is all the product of intelligent thought. Literally every single pixel and every single line of code that governs the actions within the game were consciously chosen and created. Also consider that a great deal of effort is made in an attempt to reflect the actual world.

It is also easy to see that these creators have power over the world that a normal player does not. Just like God is able to manipulate the physical laws of the universe, GM's are able to manipulate the laws of Norrath. They can rez without being a cleric and they can port to any location in the world with a simple command. Why then is it so hard to believe that God too would have powers over the physical universe and is not bound by it's laws? This is a perfect example of how things such as miracles are possible such as life beginning or Jesus walking on water etc.

So here you are, sitting in a virtual world that attempts to mimic the real world and we know for a fact that this world was 100% entirely the product of intelligent beings. Yet you can't grasp the idea that the real world too, was the product of an intelligent being?

So sure, Hitchins is right, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, however I simply do not think this quote has any relevance since I am clearly providing evidence to support my claim.

And this is why your arguments can never be rational. You only ever consider one possibility so you can never be truly objective. You twist facts to suit the theory instead of the theory to suit the facts. If you were truly objective you'd say "Also, where did it come from if it's parents don't exist? This is more evidence for God since according to the very laws of science, life shouldn't technically even be possible.... OR". You are missing the "or". When you run into something that can't be explained, you don't simply explain it away with magic and call that logic. You gather evidence and adjust your theories.

[Ravager]

Pretty pathetic how you dumb ass atheists proclaim to be intelligent and yet the best argument you can supply consists of posting gif's or logic consisting of exactly what you accuse creationists as using. Just know that you're literally holding back the entire human race with your blatant stupidity.



Actually the gods of ancient mythology were real people that actually existed and still do. They are simply very advanced beings that were called gods because of their technology. They too however were created by God but this is a completely different discussion. I will say this tho, there is an ancient text by Apollo stating that the gods were ordered by Jesus to leave the planet, several hundred years before he was born. So how does Apollo...a supposedly fake person, know about or even have a conversation with someone who hasn't even been born yet? Unless of course Apollo was a real person and Jesus really is who he says he is.

Invoking God has nothing to do with a need to explain but rather that God is the only logical explanation. There's only two possibilities for how life began and only one of them is logical. Either everything created itself from nothing, for no reason and inanimate matter some how magically turned itself into complex constructs for again, no reason or purpose, just total random chance coincidences. Or an intelligent being designed and then created the universe for a reason and for a purpose and they took inanimate matter and formed it into complex things like stars, planets and eventually life.

So there you go. The only two possible ways the universe could exist, of which is not possible. Has zero to do with semantics.

Now you tipped your troll hand.

[Alarti0001]

Well actually everything I've said is already proven fact but just like every other controversial proven fact in history, the majority is always against it until one day it just becomes common sense. In fact let me give you a perfect example of how people like you are like a boulder for the human race that intelligent people like me have to carry.



So this guy discovers a way to save the lives of literally millions of people but because he couldn't explain it in a scientific manner, he was discredited and driven out of the medical community only to be imprisoned and taken to an asylum where he was beaten to death. Then literally just a few years after his death, Louis Pasteur discovered that germs were in fact the cause of infection and could prove it scientifically.

Soon, the medical community had no choice but to face the reality of the situation at which point they were like "lolz bro, turned out you were right about those germs, totally didn't mean to destroy your life, have you locked up and sent to an asylum. Oh and the whole beating you to death thing, again, my bad bro lolz".

Call me a troll, call me whatever you like. You're those same exact scum bags, just 200 years in the future. People thought Greek mythology was just that...a myth. Until the "mythical" City of Troy was actually discovered in this thing called "reality" just several decades ago, proving that not only Greek mythology, but all mythology, might actually be based on fact. Oh, how was the city of Troy discovered you ask? Well wouldn't you know, the guy actually took the books seriously and followed the clues in them! LOL What a fucking moron, right? Well guess what retards, he's now one of the most famous archaeologists of all time.



Nail in the coffin right there really. Just a matter of time before the rest of mythology is proven to be based on fact and real history.




The tide comes in.... the tide goes out... what more proof do you need !

[Rhambuk]

The tide comes in.... the tide goes out... what more proof do you need !

The moon = god

[Hitchens]

Actually the gods of ancient mythology were real people that actually existed and still do. They are simply very advanced beings that were called gods because of their technology. They too however were created by God but this is a completely different discussion. I will say this tho, there is an ancient text by Apollo stating that the gods were ordered by Jesus to leave the planet, several hundred years before he was born. So how does Apollo...a supposedly fake person, know about or even have a conversation with someone who hasn't even been born yet? Unless of course Apollo was a real person and Jesus really is who he says he is.

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[Rhambuk]

lol that remix is a riot

[Zadrian]

You can tell a poorly thought out argument when no reasoning is provided with a statement. I didn't come here simply stating "God did it". However, you come here and say "evolution did it". How is this any different then what you claim I'm doing? Bit hypocritical don't you think?

Providing a link that offers nothing but speculations and assumptions doesn't really count either. The whole article starting with the very title itself is laced with "could have's" and "might be's" and "if's".

You also can't just state "evolution" because there is no known mechanism in which evolution can cause inanimate matter to become alive. There is also no evidence that one species can become another entirely different species. Evolution contradicts the law of biogenesis and the laws of thermodynamics. You cannot have a scientific theory that contradicts a scientific law. Laws are undeniable scientific facts that are 100% consistent. Evolution by definition is unscientific.

Sorry, I've just given up on this fruitless nonsense. You can't have a discussion if you are unwilling to consider other people's ideas.

Anyway, point of the article wasn't to prove anything, it was to give you food for thought. You were speaking about DNA concepts so assuredly, which is impossible because, as you can see, there are still discoveries being made.

[Quiksilver]

I like this thread, so far. Someone states "abc" theory, then another swoops in and shoots it down with "xyz" theory.

The universe is huge. At this time, we as the human race have dissected 1 gram of water out of something the size of an ocean. We still don't know how the gram works so let's not get ahead of ourselves quite yet ;)

The universe was created this size and this complex so that we cant find the beginning. Once we find the answer to the ultimate question, we will all commit suicide because we are unhappy with the find, because we become fulfilled, or we just become bored.

*SPOILER ALERT*
Tell me, do you feel accomplished once you figured out it was your parents and not Santa Claus? Or finding out that movies are just created using smoke and mirrors? I'm going to state the obvious in saying that these are analogies. Life goes on once you find out that Santa isn't real. But could you say the same once the creator is revealed? (or if there even IS one?)
*END OF SPOILER ALERT*
I take pity on those who do not believe in some form of creator because it's a difficult life. A "believer" can life their life in ruins and suffering but will always have something to fall back on. A "non-believer" cant do that. There is no ground to stand on other than science, which is not enough. We are stupid as the human race and know virtually nothing of our selves (really? you do? why do enzymes behave the way they do?) our planet (really? you do? google the money pit and deep ocean exploration for me then) and our universe.

Billions in cash and lives have been spent searching for all the answers and we continue to come up short. I'll continue to believe in my God, while the others can continue to live their fruitless lives. Why? Because it's easier, that's why. I simply choose not to pursue a meaningless effort.

I am NOT saying that God gives meaning to my life. What He represents is what gives my life meaning. I choose not to pursue where we, planets, and the universe came from because we aren't going to find the answers in our lifetime. It's made that way for a reason.

I've stuck my neck out there, come get some :cool:

[Hitchens]

I like this thread, so far. Someone states "abc" theory, then another swoops in and shoots it down with "xyz" theory.

The universe is huge. At this time, we as the human race have dissected 1 gram of water out of something the size of an ocean. We still don't know how the gram works so let's not get ahead of ourselves quite yet ;)

The universe was created this size and this complex so that we cant find the beginning. Once we find the answer to the ultimate question, we will all commit suicide because we are unhappy with the find, because we become fulfilled, or we just become bored.

*SPOILER ALERT*
Tell me, do you feel accomplished once you figured out it was your parents and not Santa Claus? Or finding out that movies are just created using smoke and mirrors? I'm going to state the obvious in saying that these are analogies. Life goes on once you find out that Santa isn't real. But could you say the same once the creator is revealed? (or if there even IS one?)
*END OF SPOILER ALERT*
I take pity on those who do not believe in some form of creator because it's a difficult life. A "believer" can life their life in ruins and suffering but will always have something to fall back on. A "non-believer" cant do that. There is no ground to stand on other than science, which is not enough. We are stupid as the human race and know virtually nothing of our selves (really? you do? why do enzymes behave the way they do?) our planet (really? you do? google the money pit and deep ocean exploration for me then) and our universe.

Billions in cash and lives have been spent searching for all the answers and we continue to come up short. I'll continue to believe in my God, while the others can continue to live their fruitless lives. Why? Because it's easier, that's why. I simply choose not to pursue a meaningless effort.

I am NOT saying that God gives meaning to my life. What He represents is what gives my life meaning. I choose not to pursue where we, planets, and the universe came from because we aren't going to find the answers in our lifetime. It's made that way for a reason.

I've stuck my neck out there, come get some :cool:

Voltaire already addressed Pascal's Wager.

[Quiksilver]

Not in this thread he didn't

[Hitchens]

Only need to do it once.

[Quiksilver]

So by your own logic, this thread should be removed because these philosophies and arguments have already been made in the past.

DEVS DO YOUR WORST

[Hitchens]

There certainly wouldn't be any loss if this thread were deleted. I highly doubt RNF is going to solve age old philosophical disagreements when it doesn't even form new ways to do it.

[Quiksilver]

Would you believe me if I told you I was unaware of Voltaire vs. Pascal's Wager before this discussion? I just wiki'd that shit :D

So what I posted was actually from my own brain. At least there is a proper name for my way of thinking. And for that, I thank you :p

[Tenlaar]

Well actually everything I've said is already proven fact but just like every other controversial proven fact in history, the majority is always against it until one day it just becomes common sense. In fact let me give you a perfect example of how people like you are like a boulder for the human race that intelligent people like me have to carry.

Yes, it's clearly the people who don't make up convenient answers to difficult questions who are holding humanity back from the great advances to be made by welcoming the flying spaghetti monster into our lives.

Here's a little tip: just because you or any other nutjob believe it doesn't make it fact, no matter how much you want it to.

[Tierael]

Science rules. Aliens made us. God made Aliens.

http://www.tvgasm.com/wp-content/uploads/im-not-saying-it-was-aliens.jpg

[Kagatob]

How is there no evidence? There is so much evidence that I seriously can't believe that people still don't believe in God in 2013. With the vast amount of scientific knowledge we possess you would think it should be obvious by the 2nd grade. DNA is literally the smoking gun for God, it seriously can't make his existence anymore obvious.

The first of every living thing had to have been created by a being that is not bound by the laws of the physical universe. According to the scientific law known as the law of biogenesis, all living things MUST come from another living thing of the same type. For example, cows will always produce more cows and cows will only ever come from other cows. Same goes for every single living thing from dogs to cats and the entire human race.
Mules come from mules huh...
Think about it logically, all infants REQUIRE the care of their parents. Who then cared for the first infant? Also, where did it come from if it's parents don't exist? This is more evidence for God since according to the very laws of science, life shouldn't technically even be possible. I'm not invoking God simply because "I don't know how, therefor God did it". I'm invoking God because based on the evidence, the only way some things are possible is if they were done by a being capable of doing anything.
Newly formed bacteria doesn't need to be "cared for" nor does a good portion of the animal kingdom in general, I wouldn't even call this an argument, I'd call it a cry for help.
How about an analogy maybe? We all play EQ. It is a world that was created, in this case the creators name is Verant instead of God. Nothing in this world happened randomly or by chance, it is all the product of intelligent thought. Literally every single pixel and every single line of code that governs the actions within the game were consciously chosen and created. Also consider that a great deal of effort is made in an attempt to reflect the actual world.

It is also easy to see that these creators have power over the world that a normal player does not. Just like God is able to manipulate the physical laws of the universe, GM's are able to manipulate the laws of Norrath. They can rez without being a cleric and they can port to any location in the world with a simple command. Why then is it so hard to believe that God too would have powers over the physical universe and is not bound by it's laws? This is a perfect example of how things such as miracles are possible such as life beginning or Jesus walking on water etc.

So here you are, sitting in a virtual world that attempts to mimic the real world and we know for a fact that this world was 100% entirely the product of intelligent beings. Yet you can't grasp the idea that the real world too, was the product of an intelligent being?
This analogy is pretty weak. New zones cannot be created, nor can their layouts be modified in any way with the exception of the location/types of objects placed within. The GM's aren't omnipotent, simply more advanced.
You can tell a poorly thought out argument when no reasoning is provided with a statement. I didn't come here simply stating "God did it". However, you come here and say "evolution did it". How is this any different then what you claim I'm doing? Bit hypocritical don't you think?
Actually you are, and nothing that you've shown is evidence in any way, shape or form. You aren't fooling us, stop fooling yourself.
You also can't just state "evolution" because there is no known mechanism in which evolution can cause inanimate matter to become alive. There is also no evidence that one species can become another entirely different species. Evolution contradicts the law of biogenesis and the laws of thermodynamics. You cannot have a scientific theory that contradicts a scientific law. Laws are undeniable scientific facts that are 100% consistent. Evolution by definition is unscientific.
Actually there is, learn to science. Partiularly the science of archaeology.


Actually the gods of ancient mythology were real people that actually existed and still do. They are simply very advanced beings that were called gods because of their technology. They too however were created by God but this is a completely different discussion. I will say this tho, there is an ancient text by Apollo stating that the gods were ordered by Jesus to leave the planet, several hundred years before he was born. So how does Apollo...a supposedly fake person, know about or even have a conversation with someone who hasn't even been born yet? Unless of course Apollo was a real person and Jesus really is who he says he is.
From this point foreward I'll not take any stock in anything you have to say, however I'll still point out some of the more obvious inconsistancies with your beliefs.
Invoking God has nothing to do with a need to explain but rather that God is the only logical explanation. There's only two possibilities for how life began and only one of them is logical. Either everything created itself from nothing, for no reason and inanimate matter some how magically turned itself into complex constructs for again, no reason or purpose, just total random chance coincidences. Or an intelligent being designed and then created the universe for a reason and for a purpose and they took inanimate matter and formed it into complex things like stars, planets and eventually life.

So there you go. The only two possible ways the universe could exist, of which is not possible. Has zero to do with semantics.
Why to you insist on wording your statements as if to say that these inanimate objects have some type of drive to do what they do? They aren't doing anything, it's simply the laws of the universe working.

*SPOILER ALERT*
Tell me, do you feel accomplished once you figured out it was your parents and not Santa Claus? Or finding out that movies are just created using smoke and mirrors? I'm going to state the obvious in saying that these are analogies. Life goes on once you find out that Santa isn't real. But could you say the same once the creator is revealed? (or if there even IS one?)
*END OF SPOILER ALERT*
I take pity on those who do not believe in some form of creator because it's a difficult life. A "believer" can life their life in ruins and suffering but will always have something to fall back on. A "non-believer" cant do that. There is no ground to stand on other than science, which is not enough. We are stupid as the human race and know virtually nothing of our selves (really? you do? why do enzymes behave the way they do?) our planet (really? you do? google the money pit and deep ocean exploration for me then) and our universe.

Billions in cash and lives have been spent searching for all the answers and we continue to come up short. I'll continue to believe in my God, while the others can continue to live their fruitless lives. Why? Because it's easier, that's why. I simply choose not to pursue a meaningless effort.

I am NOT saying that God gives meaning to my life. What He represents is what gives my life meaning. I choose not to pursue where we, planets, and the universe came from because we aren't going to find the answers in our lifetime. It's made that way for a reason.

I've stuck my neck out there, come get some :cool:
Why are you proud to rely so heavily on what amounts to nothing more than a crutch? How is that logical?