Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All true ... and yet it also remains true that a non-raid Shaman will likely spend 95+% of their Shaman career without hitting the cap.

Your understanding of what gear a non-raid Shaman can get is simply way off base. Please stop saying this unless you can actually provide evidence for it. Show us some Magelos of what you think a "non-raid" Shaman looks like 95% of the time. And if you use someone so poor that they are just in Banded, then again starting stats don't matter. You have bigger problems (i.e. poor gear).

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can keep repeating "the only reason is" until you're blue in the face, but it's neither evidence nor a logical argument. Although I do agree that a Shaman could save a buff slot as you describe, it's entirely irrelevant to this thread because non-raid Shaman don't hit buff limits either.

Please tell me how it isn't a logical argument, besides you just saying so. You haven't provided any evidence. You can easily hit max buffs self buffed on a Shaman lol, and you don't need to be in a raid to get buffs from other people. I am hitting max buffs in the bravatar video, and that's all self buffed.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a variant of the "stats don't matter argument ... which amuses me because only a few pages ago you were arguing on the other side of that debate:

But to the extent they do matter ... having more HP > Mana.

I think you missed the point of my quote. I was pointing out the flaw in the "starting stats don't matter argument". You can say that starting stats don't matter that much, AND one choice is superior over the other[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It is not mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wow, so your best evidence that Mana > HP is that ... you kinda came close to running out of mana ... and also HP ... in an 17+ minute fight (a fight where you exchanged HP and mana about a gazillion times by casting spells). A fight which, I might add, is not something a 1-59 Shaman can do, or even a 60 Shaman without Torpor (and some decent gear too I'd imagine).

In other words, even if Mana > HP in that fight ... it still doesn't change the fact that HP > Mana for the 95+% plus of the Shaman's career before that.

So just to recap, the reasons (multiple) to choose Stamina for your starting stat points over Wisdom are:

• to free up a buff slot if you are a hardcore raider
• to have more HP (which is more valuable than mana) for the vast majority of your Shaman's life, if you are not

Your best evidence against putting points into WIS is that you didn't run out of mana while leveling. Which is anecdotal and we can't prove it. I have actual evidence while you have nothing. Unfortunately video evidence trumps random anecdote. In that video I get down to 7% Mana. That is 210 Mana, which is literally what I am getting from the 25 WIS I put into my starting stats lol. This is undisputable video proof of the 25WIS coming in to play.

Furthermore, if you inspect any up and coming Shaman, you will find more Shrunken Goblin Skull Earrings than Star of Eyes, so obviously most people do not mind taking a hit on their max HP for a clickie. If people are willing to lose 35HP for a clickie, I am not sure why you think it is a stretch for them to lose a bit more HP on their starting stats.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This quote still surprises me:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can keep repeating "the only reason is" until you're blue in the face, but it's neither evidence nor a logical argument. Although I do agree that a Shaman could save a buff slot as you describe, it's entirely irrelevant to this thread because non-raid Shaman don't hit buff limits either.

I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

You can also get buffed with things like POTG, which lasts 2 hours, and would take up another buff slot. I do not have POTG on in that video. You don't need to be in a raid to get POTG.

You can also use potions to buff yourself too, and I am not doing that either.

Nothing about my gear is allowing me to hit max buffs. Someone without any raid gear could do the same thing.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This quote still surprises me:



I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

You can also get buffed with things like POTG, which lasts 2 hours, and would take up another buff slot. I do not have POTG on in that video. You don't need to be in a raid to get POTG.

You can also use potions to buff yourself too, and I am not doing that either.

Nothing about my gear is allowing me to hit max buffs. Someone without any raid gear could do the same thing.

Page 21, i finally learned something. I had no idea inner fire stacked with fos.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Page 21, i finally learned something. I had no idea inner fire stacked with fos.

Yup, it's pretty nice if you want a tiny bit of an HP boost for free.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your understanding of what gear a non-raid Shaman can get is simply way off base. Please stop saying this unless you can actually provide evidence for it. Show us some Magelos of what you think a "non-raid" Shaman looks like 95% of the time. And if you use someone so poor that they are just in Banded, then again starting stats don't matter. You have bigger problems (i.e. poor gear).

At level 1 you start out with no gear, and as you level, your gear will not hit the caps. Even at 60 as you acquire Torpor (unless for some odd reason you delay it to max stats) you will also have less-than-max stats.

To hit caps with the kind of gear in the magelos posted (the realistic ones, not the "go for max stamina at the expense of all else" ones), as a non-raid Shaman, you need Torpor.

Once you have Torpor and farm some good gear for awhile, you could hit a stat cap! But even if you do, most people will, before too long, move on to another character ... or another game.

EQ is not WoW: you can't take your max-stat gear out to the battlegrounds to use it. Once you have all the toys, there's little else to do here (except raid).

So as I keep saying, for 95+% of a Shaman's life they're focused on getting the end game gear: they only have "endgame gear" at the end.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please tell me how it isn't a logical argument, besides you just saying so. You haven't provided any evidence. You can easily hit max buffs self buffed on a Shaman lol, and you don't need to be in a raid to get buffs from other people. I am hitting max buffs in the bravatar video, and that's all self buffed.

I should have elaborated: a non-raid shaman will ... for 95+% of his career ... not be getting max buffed. And even at 60 he will likely only rarely have max buffs (eg. before a big fight, but certainly not for an extended farm session).

I'd also note that one of the buffs filling up your slots is Primal Essence ... from an item a non-raid Shaman could never have.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your best evidence against putting points into WIS is that you didn't run out of mana while leveling. Which is anecdotal and we can't prove it. I have actual evidence while you have nothing. Unfortunately video evidence trumps random anecdote. In that video I get down to 7% Mana. That is 210 Mana, which is literally what I am getting from the 25 WIS I put into my starting stats lol. This is undisputable video proof of the 25WIS coming in to play.

Maybe you missed the part about how you were exchanging Mana <=> HP over the course of that (long) fight, so you can't just blame your starting mana amount on the result? What if you have 7k mana, but never cannibalize once, so you run out: was your max mana the reason you ran out?

Similarly here, if you'd just Torped a bit less and Cannibalized a bit more, you could instead be making the argument that you had low health at the end of the fight. How you played doesn't prove anything.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Furthermore, if you inspect any up and coming Shaman, you will find more Shrunken Goblin Skull Earrings than Star of Eyes, so obviously most people do not mind taking a hit on their max HP for a clickie. If people are willing to lose 35HP for a clickie, I am not sure why you think it is a stretch for them to lose a bit more HP on their starting stats.

Huh? We're talking Wisdom vs. Stamina, Mana vs. HP: I'm arguing HP is better, and you're arguing ... Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is better?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

Who is casting Avatar on themselves (and burning an emerald with each cast) in every fight in their daily play? This is an extreme case.

Again, in 95+% of their play, Shaman are not hitting max buffs. I'd honestly venture to guess 99+%: it's really something they'll only do for their very hardest fights. And again most people aren't just endlessly soloing Western Wastes dragons for months at a time after maxing out their gear: it gets old and they move on.

[Troxx]

/barf

Loramin …. Dude …

[Jimjam]

This thread is like watching shamans attrition soloing. Slow, steady, consistent but mainly slow.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

/barf

Loramin …. Dude …

whenever lora and DSM start battling its time to walk away

they're both good dudes but man...talk about beating a dead horse / arguing til the cows come home

its 2022 and they're debating shit that literally does not matter at all, ever, not in 1 million cliff golems worth of fighting

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

whenever lora and DSM start battling its time to walk away

they're both good dudes but man...talk about beating a dead horse / arguing til the cows come home

its 2022 and they're debating shit that literally does not matter at all, ever, not in 1 million cliff golems worth of fighting

+25 charisma to recruit warrior assistant and make things 10 times faster.