Iterative approach to a hyper progression PvP server w triggered unlocks + wipes

[limit]

Hi,

It seems we are all finally swallowing the pill that we won't see a Red 2.o, which is quite sad as P1999 has done such an awesome job with recreating the classic EQ experience, and even has the official legal blessings. So now we are seeing a lot of interest in new custom PvP servers. I thought I would throw my hat into the mix. I would love if P99 would even endorse one of these new prospective servers so we don't segment the PvP population any further and can share code and data- I think that's the best outcome for the community, but I leave that to the P99 crew.

Let me start with a few observations:

1- PvP emulator servers will never have the permanence that Live did, Red was the closest we ever got and ever will-- and that means the heavy investment required by players just doesn't add up. The majority of us still playing this thing are casuals by old standards. This can/does deter people from playing. Progression needs to be casual if we want to welcome players outside of the current niche group.

2- PvP emulator servers similarly will never have the population that Live did, or that Blue/Green have. The result is an empty world in one of the more collaborative games ever made. This is something great about the idea of the Faydwer PvP server, acknowledging this fact and trying to scale. I do think that project falls short of addressing some other realities though, and the level of customization and upfront cost a bit too ambitious without knowing if it's even fun, so here I am (sorry, I admire your initiative though!).

3- PvP emulator servers seem to always hit a point where things stagnate. The population nosedives, getting exponentially worse until the server is only played by the same small niche group, in a very particular style. There's lots of variables that contribute to this, but this is about the time you see a segment of the population start with the "WIPE IT" rants. I don't necessarily believe a wipe would fix Red for example, or some of the previous servers where this happened, as we would just get back to the same place inevitably, but there's something to be said about the appeal and energy that a fresh start server has.

Rather than resist these dynamics, I would like to see a server where we acknowledge them and embrace them instead- and also admit the fact that we probably won't get it right the first time. The software industry has been magnetized towards 'Agile' as it confronts the reality that we as developers often build software that our users don't want and doesn't fulfil their requirements. Such an iterative process addresses this by creating minimalistic feedback loops that involve the USERS (and data) foremost as the primary driving force for development. In this way we have confidence we are well aligned with our users and working towards the same goal. Now, after working in AAA games for 15 years, I can confidently say that the customer is NOT always right- game design and balance can be incredibly complex- but there is a harmony that can be achieved with huge benefits when we invite our users in to help us make the best products.

Now, wtf am I on about; EQ as we loved it hasn't been in development for 20 years. But, we've still yet to see a emulated PvP server with any staying power or continued interest or replayability. The demand exists, it's plain to see, but we are falling short somewhere, perhaps many places. I would like to create a server that is designed to increment towards addressing these shortcomings, in a way that is fun and doesn't nerfhammer anyone's experience in the process of experimentation. What I am describing is a server with a limited lifespan by design, with the quality of life improvements to make it viable to play in that shortened timeline, to the extent that the idea of losing your progress does not trump the exciting "fresh box" feeling and experiences for everyone after a reset. This would require hyper progression. Such a model would allow us to make major changes to the server mechanics and push them in the upcoming progression "seasons", rather then introducing them into the middle of the season where they would be disruptive to the server's ongoing dynamics. Meaning, if there is something alienating to you as a part of this season's ruleset, it won't be too long until that problem is addressed along with a fresh start for you... worst case you sit the season out. Same if real life comes knocking for a bit, you'll know you can come back to your favourite game and still be relevant and join in on the fun.

So, I've not (over)focused here on the ruleset of this server because the premise of this server is foremost to allow for changes to be made as the community requires them and to do that often. I have lots of ideas regarding customization and ruleset, and there are many more here in the community, but they are VERY secondary to implementing a framework that is going to let us have fun, improve the server continuously and give the community a permanent home.

But at a high level, this is what the first iteration might look like regarding ruleset:

- Highly accelerated XP and drop rates, bonus when grouped and guilded.
- Progression is triggered, not time based.
- Progression triggers will be tied to events and/or custom quests.
- The final stage of progression is a triggered server reset/wipe, following a chaotic "world ending" event. Guilds which are enjoying success will want to prevent this reset and preserve position, and those less advantaged will likely want to trigger the reset to get back to a fresh start world where they can be (more) competitive again.
- The world ending event will be triggerable before all content is unlocked (if you don't like this season, go destroy the world).
- Progression unlocks zones and drop tiers, not necessarily expansions. This is as the world will be limited in some way. For example, locked to the classic world and expanded carefully by drop tiers and/or selected zones (maybe the entrance to Old Seb is suddenly uncovered in Lower Guk). Alternatively, it could be locked to the expansion content (eg you are locked to Kunark for that era, with old world drops added to the pool). To vote on; I for one love the classic world but replayability could benefit from the change of setting during progression. But most importantly we want to strike a balance where you don't need to port around to find groups or PvP, but you can still find a quiet corner if you need it.
- Progression will be scaled so that the "season" (meaning: time til wipe) will last 1-3 months, depending on the choices made by players.
- There will be some incentive for those who continue playing the next season after reset, perhaps a questline, item or other reward. Your names will be preserved.
- There will be no content from after Velious.
- Guild based and FFA PvP, with maximum number of members (12?). Alliances and affiliations will be required to achieve some content.
- PvP will be all levels, but armor and resist checks in PvP will ignore level, so lower levels are much more viable during encounters. A group of skilled lower levels should be able to take down a much higher level player, be careful who you harass.
- Buffing/healing only within groups and guilds.
- Given the accelerated drop rate, either *all items* will be NO DROP and there will be no PvP item loot, or *all items will be droppable* and then lootable during PvP. To vote; both scenarios solve different problems and I could see us trying out both in different seasons.
- Coin will be lootable in PvP. In the chance of a globally NO-DROP world, there will be some custom vendors to drive the coin economy.
- Given the accelerated XP rate, there will be a considerable XP penalty for PvP death.
- World wide OOC (but not linked outside, if you want to talk shit, you'll need to log on)
- The zone will be alerted when someone engages another player in PvP, and the world alerted upon death.
- No boxing and most definitely no automation or hacking.

These would be the points I would focus on during the first iteration. It's important to remember that anything you read here can and would EVOLVE OVER TIME; everything is subject to getting the axe based on how it affects our experiences and population. You will get to suggest and vote on these changes directly, and you will get the right to change your mind later with no apology. This is the beauty in introducing a cyclical expiration date on the game world- if you don't like it, you can change it.

Anyone drinking my Kool-aid?

[Gustoo]

Hard to track it I’ll maybe read when I’ve got a really long dump ahead

[limit]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hard to track it I’ll maybe read when I’ve got a really long dump ahead

Fair enough, if you get a chance to poo-read maybe you can do a TLDR version for me, I'm not good at this.

[Gustoo]

I think that the player triggered progression is a bit too much. There are people that will bumrush content just to delete the server before most people even hit level 30.

PVP on EMU is lacking severely in an area where many of the actual live 1999 pvp'ers had some very fond memories, specifically in the low level PVP area.

Most EMU servers fail to incentivize anyone to be anywhere below maximum level. A server that forces a level maximum for a period of time will mean there will be timespans where the maximum level is 10, and then the maximum level is 20, and so on.

The incentive for people to actually gear up to their best extent during the level 10 cap is that it will empower them in the journey from level 10 to level 20. This pattern will continue.

This would have players competing at various class balance levels as class abilities shift as levels progress, and also they would get the chance to push the limits of what can be accomplished at level 20 and so on.

For each epoch there can be a winning PVP'er or a winning guild, or whatever.

Fact is that the game favors casters in many ways at low levels, but all players know this going in and I don't think a lot of balance is needed. If everyone is going to be a wizard or a mage or a druid or something, thats fine. Wizards have mana enough to kill 1 player before OOM at low levels that means you gotta be pretty clever to avoid death and rack up kills as a pure caster at low levels. While if you're a melee or hybrid you can get into the action more easily but can be CC'd

Maybe allow egg shaped pumice or something.

I love pvp theoryquest as much as the next guy but there has been a lot lately. Old PVP's idea is a really good hybrid idea that the bluebies would probably -love- if they weren't so afraid of it. Your idea is more catered towards a server that won't last.

I think the best server that won't last format is the classic DISCORD server and it just has a hard END date and someone will be the total victor and enter the hall of fame, and then it restarts.

i think that DISCORD server should allow the winner to choose ANY item from the game to be given to his character of choice on his server of choice, to make it a viable way for bluebies to try to gear their characters with dragon loot or whatever crap they have always wanted. Make the competition real, get the blue guys involved.


Old world only

Max level 50
Permadeath
6 month run time or 3 month
Winner gets any item in the game for one of his characters. Must register accounts viable for transferring item at time of character creation or whatever so people can't sell the reward.

[limit]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that the player triggered progression is a bit too much. There are people that will bumrush content just to delete the server before most people even hit level 30.

PVP on EMU is lacking severely in an area where many of the actual live 1999 pvp'ers had some very fond memories, specifically in the low level PVP area.

Most EMU servers fail to incentivize anyone to be anywhere below maximum level. A server that forces a level maximum for a period of time will mean there will be timespans where the maximum level is 10, and then the maximum level is 20, and so on.

The incentive for people to actually gear up to their best extent during the level 10 cap is that it will empower them in the journey from level 10 to level 20. This pattern will continue.

This would have players competing at various class balance levels as class abilities shift as levels progress, and also they would get the chance to push the limits of what can be accomplished at level 20 and so on.

For each epoch there can be a winning PVP'er or a winning guild, or whatever.

Fact is that the game favors casters in many ways at low levels, but all players know this going in and I don't think a lot of balance is needed. If everyone is going to be a wizard or a mage or a druid or something, thats fine. Wizards have mana enough to kill 1 player before OOM at low levels that means you gotta be pretty clever to avoid death and rack up kills as a pure caster at low levels. While if you're a melee or hybrid you can get into the action more easily but can be CC'd

Maybe allow egg shaped pumice or something.

I love pvp theoryquest as much as the next guy but there has been a lot lately. Old PVP's idea is a really good hybrid idea that the bluebies would probably -love- if they weren't so afraid of it. Your idea is more catered towards a server that won't last.

I think the best server that won't last format is the classic DISCORD server and it just has a hard END date and someone will be the total victor and enter the hall of fame, and then it restarts.

i think that DISCORD server should allow the winner to choose ANY item from the game to be given to his character of choice on his server of choice, to make it a viable way for bluebies to try to gear their characters with dragon loot or whatever crap they have always wanted. Make the competition real, get the blue guys involved.


Old world only

Max level 50
Permadeath
6 month run time or 3 month
Winner gets any item in the game for one of his characters. Must register accounts viable for transferring item at time of character creation or whatever so people can't sell the reward.

That's some really great feedback, thanks. I like the distinction between "built to last" and "built to not last," it does categorize things well.

Also a fan OldPvP's concept, but sadly I think the fatal blow would be the dependency on P1999 to endorse it. And I don't see us achieving another "built to last" server without their help. Leaving the other options.

Love your idea of locking progression to levels, either alone as the progression mechanic or as a compliment to others; it's easily feasible and has huge value in changing the dynamic and recreating some of those non-endgame PvP experiences. This I would incorporate for sure.

Regarding triggers:

- I don't think there's an incentive for the people at the top to wipe the server unless we make that action itself rewarding (there will need to be other rewards for those people instead, people in carryover to the next epoch as you put), which wasn't my intention. More realistically you'll want to get to the top and stay there as long as possible to enjoy it, which would require contesting those who are trying to wipe the server to usurp you.

- Appreciating your goal with having fixed timeboxes for progression, I would only argue that well designed triggers can achieve the same goal, but with added interaction. For example, triggers dependent on certain content which would only be possible given X number of players, certain gear, etc to accomplish: something like taking down a dragon, or even . It primarily costs time to make those things happen. It's not necessarily fixed time but it can be tweaked until it's right. I think it would be interesting to see guilds contest this content as well, I guess that's my primary sticking point for the triggers. Those kinds of heated PvP battles which turn the tides of the server can be really fun and I would want to create those situations as often as possible. REGARDLESS -- Playing with fixed time boxes is definitely worth a trial and something to add to the roadmap.

Discord is indeed a big motivation here, but permadeath is just terribly unfriendly to casuals, and the last thing I would want is a mechanic that literally boots people off of the server, hope you feel me. Thanks for the time.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by limit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Discord is indeed a big motivation here, but permadeath is just terribly unfriendly to casuals, and the last thing I would want is a mechanic that literally boots people off of the server, hope you feel me. Thanks for the time.

I don't get it, isn't the server you are talking about here something would put everyone's characters back to Level 1 every 1-3 months?

[magnetaress]

I think programattically decidding when to wipe a server rather than just catering to the wipe it clean crowed so its gameified is a super cool idea.

I do not understand 90% of what u wrote tho and couldnt tell u when that was a good time or what trigger. I would say once the Final bosses all died once.

0000 ---- it would be super cool to have like players be able to keep one item and their toon names and be able to reroll if so. maybe final boss dies and there is a countdown to wipe.

Also would like to see things like research items drop x25 or something on a server like this

def would be a good way of killing platfarmers

only that one item keeps so u cant build a stable of items and max lvl chars ))))

[limit]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't get it, isn't the server you are talking about here something would put everyone's characters back to Level 1 every 1-3 months?

Yes, but also making it really easy and meaningful to relevel and regear (when it happens you will do it along side the entire server, meaning groups + pvp, not just yourself). I get your point, the same is applicable to permadeath, but I just don't want to endorse any extreme player behaviour that comes with Discord stakes, eg people pissing in bottles. Not looking to make things hardcore, rather just recreate some experiences that were hard to previously on Emu PvP.

[limit]

Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think programattically decidding when to wipe a server rather than just catering to the wipe it clean crowed so its gameified is a super cool idea.

I do not understand 90% of what u wrote tho and couldnt tell u when that was a good time or what trigger. I would say once the Final bosses all died once.

0000 ---- it would be super cool to have like players be able to keep one item and their toon names and be able to reroll if so. maybe final boss dies and there is a countdown to wipe.

Also would like to see things like research items drop x25 or something on a server like this

def would be a good way of killing platfarmers

only that one item keeps so u cant build a stable of items and max lvl chars ))))

Thanks! Sorry it was hard to follow. I agree, those are all good possibilities for this kind of server.

[limit]

It does seem this makes sense and would be really easy to try.

I am starting a new job this coming month (working on another MMO actually), I think I will be on overload for a minute but once I get settled in over there I am going to give this a try and will be back with a more digestible write-up.