Is a Mage + Shaman a Good duo?

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A shaman Slow Tanking correctly is spamming JBB already. Slowed mobs are not going to interrupt JBB very often. I Slow Tank with JBB a lot. In this duo the Shaman should be tanking 100% of the time.

A Mage's DPS is at it's strongest when they don't need to have the pet tank. This is because you aren't wasting time/mana on chain summoning pets. 100% of your mana and time is spend on Nuking via clickies or mana nukes, which maximizes DPS.

In no scenario except your imagination is a shaman tanking 100% of the time. Have fun holding aggro on a 100+ dps rogue when disease aggro is broken and root breaks happening with jbb spam. We’re not even at high MR mobs yet either.

To discount the addition of a mage who can chain summon 3k hp+ pets with ease shows your lack of vision for high performant duos. Mixing in roots slow torpor jbb patch heals on rogue it’s just not gonna fly all of the time and there will be situations where it’s better to let the shaman sit back and dps with dots. There’s really nothing you gain with a rogue duo except maybe some extra static dps when the rogue is geared to the teeth. None of it I see worth giving up a mage for. Rogues fill one role in a duo, dps. Mages are more than that in a duo. This is why rogues start to shine when you get more people in group such as a tank and superior healing. If we are talking about the best 4-6 man group, I would probably include rogue in there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In no scenario except your imagination is a shaman tanking 100% of the time. Have fun holding aggro on a 100+ dps rogue when disease aggro is broken and root breaks happening with jbb spam. We’re not even at high MR mobs yet either.

To discount the addition of a mage who can chain summon 3k hp+ pets with ease shows your lack of vision for high performant duos. Mixing in roots slow torpor jbb patch heals on rogue it’s just not gonna fly all of the time. There’s really nothing you gain with a rogue duo except maybe some extra static dps when the rogue is geared to the teeth. None of it I see worth giving up a mage for. Rogues fill one role in a duo, dps. Mages are more than that in a duo. This is why rogues start to shine when you get more people in group such as a tank and superior healing. If we are talking about the best 4-6 man group, I would probably include rogue in there.

It's quite easy to hold agro with a Rogue. With root whomever is closer to the mob gets the agro. If you are having problems with root breaks there are two solutions: 1. Cast JBB less, the Rogue is doing more average DPS than the Mage anyway. 2. Use Blind instead of Root. Most encounters in a duo situation shouldn't last more than a minute or so, so using Blind 2-3 times is going to end up costing roughly the same amount of mana as using 1-2 roots. You can also use low level slows to build agro.

For your point about chain summoning, let's just take a look at a Mage/Shaman duo that is in their mid 50s, so no Torpor.

Here is a video of a 56 mage, so we can get some DPS numbers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhm9K-ePJAk

Vocarate: Earth costs 300 mana, takes 10 seconds to cast, and another 15 seconds to click your burnout pants. That means your pet costs 380 mana, because you are losing 4 ticks of meditate. Every time your pet dies, you must recast Cadeau of Flame for 155 mana + losing 1 tick of meditate for 175 mana. The HP ratio of this chain summoned pet is 555 mana to 2800 HP, which is a ratio of 1 mana to 5 HP.

A Shaman's Chloroblast spell is a ratio of 1 to 2.2 in terms of mana to HP. On paper it sounds like a Mage chain summoning pets should be more effective in terms of mitigation.

However, you are not taking into account DPS loss. In the video I showed above, it takes 86 seconds for the mage to kill Oosa Shadowthumper who has 4000 HP. This means the mage is doing a total of 46 DPS, roughly speaking. The damage shield did about 1100 damage, and the mage did about 200 with scars of sigil. This means the pet's DPS is 31 DPS. A backstabbing Greater Vocaration: Water is doing 60ish DPS. I don't have the DPS numbers for Vocarate: Water, but let's say its doing roughly 20 more DPS than the Earth Pet. If you throw in a single Scars of Sigil due to not being required to chain summon pets, that is another 5 DPS on an 86 second fight.

With the Shaman tanking instead of the pet, you are almost doubling your damage, which means the encounter is going twice as fast. If you would normally take 1000 damage per encounter, you are now taking more like 600 damage per encounter. You would add that HP to the ratio of Chloroblast, which makes Chloroblast act as a 175 mana for 785 heal, which is a ratio of 1 mana to 4.5 HP. While this is 0.5 HP less than chain summoning, you are also clearing mobs a lot faster, which means you have more time to recover per cycle.

Chain summoning pets and having the pet tank has quite a few costs that people generally do not take into account. If the Shaman has Torpor and/or Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff, their mitigation easily surpasses a chained summoned pet when taking into account DPS loss.

Finally, the point about high resist mobs is kind of weird. A Shaman duo would not be fighting mobs that are immune to slow, that wouldn't really be productive as it goes against one of the strengths of this duo: slowing.

[Guesty07]

As a 60 shaman, I'd take the mage every time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I apologize, my previous message was a bit confusing in terms of the explanation. Here is a simplified version of the maths. All of these scenarios are fighting https://wiki.project1999.com/Oosa_Shadowthumper :

Solo Mage level 56:

1x cast of Vocarate Earth (Pet) = 320 Mana (including 1x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Burnout Pants = 60 Mana (including 3x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 175 Mana (including 1x Meditation tick loss)

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet = 31 DPS
Damage Shield = 12 DPS
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 730 Mana for 48 DPS and pet takes 3000 damage.

Mage/Shaman Duo, both level 56, Pet is Tanking:

1x cast of Togor's Insects = 175 Mana (This spell allows the pet to survive 3 encounters instead of 1)

0.33x cast of Vocarate Earth (Pet) = 107 Mana

0.33x cast of Burnout Pants = 20 Mana

0.33x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 58 Mana

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet = 31 DPS
Damage Shield = 4 DPS (damage is lowered due to slow)
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 535 Mana for 40 DPS and pet takes 1000 damage

Mage/Shaman Duo, both level 56, Shaman is Tanking:

1x cast of Togor's Insects = 175 Mana

2x cast of Chloroblast = 350 Mana

0x cast of Vocarate Water = 0 Mana

0.2x cast of Cadeau of Flame = 35 Mana (The Shaman has the DS, so you don't need to cast it as often)

1x cast of Scars of Sigil = 175 Mana (No Meditation tick loss due to cast speed)

Pet DPS = 47 (Water pet should do at least 16 more DPS than Earth pet)
Damage Shield = 4 DPS (damage is lowered due to slow)
Scars of Sigil = 5 DPS

Totals: 735 Mana for 56 DPS and shaman takes 0 damage (the increased DPS is reducing damage taken as well as the heals)

Ratio of DPS to Mana while Shaman is tanking: 13.125

Ratio of DPS to Mana while Pet is tanking: 13.375

Conclusion: The Tanking Shaman adds 16 DPS to the duo, while maintaining the same DPS to Mana ratio.

At the end of the day, the mana to DPS ratio between a Mage chain summoning and a Shaman face tanking is basically the same, but with the Shaman tanking you are killing mobs faster.

If the Shaman has Torpor and/or Fungi Staff + Fungi Tunic, having the Shaman Tank will surpass chain summoning pets in the DPS to Mana ratio.

[Vexenu]

> 2 pet classes for effortless, sustainable DPS
> both with very nice clickie nukes to boot
> shaman can slow so pet is barely getting hit
> pet has innate double Fungi regen + regrowth
> pets literally chainsawing through mobs barely taking damage
> mage and shaman getting some of easiest and most chill XP ever
> DSM somehow manages to fuck this up

[Snaggles]

In a world where a sham is 60 with torp and a mage is 60 with the water pet it's pretty common sense to let the sham face-tank. If it's really nasty maybe throw both pets at it while you slow and debuff before taking over. You're probably leaving 25dps on the table just letting the mage water (no backstab) and wolf pet tank, or more if you're torping them. The fact that a PC will always take aggro over a pet while in range makes it much easier for a sham than chain casting flash of light.

A focused water pet at 60 does really good dps on blues. Like a high 50's rogue unhasted or most EC monks self hasted. The DS on the sham isnt great since the slow but its something, probably like 8dps or so. The mage can keep up 25dps mana free with a burnt wood staff or burst much higher as needed.

In the lower levels id prob slow the mob and throw the earth and wolf pet and heal as needed. The 57 earth is extremely tanky, especially on something slowed.

Chain summoning is a thing, I guess. You can still do it. It's just kinda gross and is more an emergency move than a solo method. Again, with torp at least. Once you get a really good pet its hard not to want to keep it since the spread is noticeable. The 57+ pets all regen 30hp/tick too so if you are slowing early even on fairly tough stuff they hold up just fine.

Note: I probably missed something but just what I would do. A mage and sham lacks some pulling options and CC but they are solid classes to pair in the right situations like killing geos.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

> 2 pet classes for effortless, sustainable DPS
> both with very nice clickie nukes to boot
> shaman can slow so pet is barely getting hit
> pet has innate double Fungi regen + regrowth
> pets literally chainsawing through mobs barely taking damage
> mage and shaman getting some of easiest and most chill XP ever
> DSM somehow manages to fuck this up

I would be happy to see your numbers, instead of a pathetic attempt at an insult.

When Shamans have Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff and/or Torpor, they are going to produce the superior mana to DPS ratios while face tanking. This is because Shamans have more resources to spend than other casters due to regen + cannibalize. It's better to put the larger mana burden on the Shaman, to reduce downtime on casters who can only meditate.

If a Shaman has none of those things, they still manage to equal a Mage chain summoning when it comes to DPS to mana ratios, but you kill the mobs faster.

One argument you could make for using chain summoning pets in this duo is when both characters are basically naked (no clickies or other good gear). When both the Shaman and Mage meditate while doing the bare minimum of casting (slow + root + /pet attack), you can get a more consistent cadence of monster kills, albeit at a slower pace. A lot of camps people like to do only have around 4 mobs though, so kill speed is generally preferred to maximize spawns per session.

However, you need to remember that the pets are killing the mobs quickly. My 2x chloroblast number was assuming worst case each battle.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a world where a sham is 60 with torp and a mage is 60 with the water pet it's pretty common sense to let the sham face-tank. If it's really nasty maybe throw both pets at it while you slow and debuff before taking over. You're probably leaving 25dps on the table just letting the mage water (no backstab) and wolf pet tank, or more if you're torping them. The fact that a PC will always take aggro over a pet while in range makes it much easier for a sham than chain casting flash of light.

A focused water pet at 60 does really good dps on blues. Like a high 50's rogue unhasted or most EC monks self hasted. The DS on the sham isnt great since the slow but its something, probably like 8dps or so. The mage can keep up 25dps mana free with a burnt wood staff or burst much higher as needed.

In the lower levels id prob slow the mob and throw the earth and wolf pet and heal as needed. The 57 earth is extremely tanky, especially on something slowed.

Chain summoning is a thing, I guess. You can still do it. It's just kinda gross and is more an emergency move than a solo method. Again, with torp at least. Once you get a really good pet its hard not to want to keep it since the spread is noticeable. The 57+ pets all regen 30hp/tick too so if you are slowing early even on fairly tough stuff they hold up just fine.

Note: I probably missed something but just what I would do. A mage and sham lacks some pulling options and CC but they are solid classes to pair in the right situations like killing geos.

Agreed, except for having the earth pet tank in the 50s. As you said earlier, you are leaving DPS on the table. But if someone can bring real data I would be happy to say I am wrong. Basically it's a numbers game between kill speed and mana regen rates.

Really early levels (40 or under), it doesn't really matter what you do. You will tear through the mobs.

[Jimjam]

If the shaman has torpor you could probably use a lesser slow to allow more hits / ds damage vs trash? Idk that is speculation on my part.

[Toxigen]

c u real soon (in 20 pages)

[Snaggles]

Basically a mage is just amplifying what a shaman would do solo. What a 60 and 60 would do is much different than a 50’something.

While giving a water pet backstab opportunity is technically better (if you have torp) it’s also more work than pulling with a slow, sending pets in, dotting, and waiting for the lazy xp.