Vanguard: Sago Of Hero's

[Ardenya]

Vanguard was indeed a great game and definitely the best PvE MMO I have ever played. Its a real shame it never came into its own after the horrible launch. They screwed people big time back then.

Still, I admire and respect Sigil's plans and "vision"(tm) for Vanguard since they implemented alot of ideas which we used to love in EQ and miss dearly in modern games. They had great, in part the best, people in the industry working on the game, Keith Parkinson and Steve "Aruspex" Williams being among them. It makes me kinda sad to see that their marvelous work dwindles down to meaninglessness.

If only SOE would have held their word and would have taken care of the game the way it deserved, they might have turned the boat around and kept Vanguard alive and floating. Right now, who in their sane mind would start playing a game like this seriously when there is no chance of new content comng out anytime soon?

In sight of recent events in the industry, I think the best chance for Vanguard to survive ist to bring in alot of new players by doing what others have done sucessfully: go free-to-play. SOE already has everything in place to do this. They have expereince with microtransactions from Free Realms and even recently with EQ as well as a cash store. Vanguard also could support all kind of store items like mounts, housing items and plots, etc. Should Vanguard ever be able to generate money, only then there might be new content and a future coming.

Anyway, some time ago Brad posted an extensive VG post-mortem on his blog which is a very interesting read for anyone interested, especially the comments.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Ardenya [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vanguard was indeed a great game and definitely the best PvE MMO I have ever played. Its a real shame it never came into its own after the horrible launch. They screwed people big time back then.

Still, I admire and respect Sigil's plans and "vision"(tm) for Vanguard since they implemented alot of ideas which we used to love in EQ and miss dearly in modern games. They had great, in part the best, people in the industry working on the game, Keith Parkinson and Steve "Aruspex" Williams being among them. It makes me kinda sad to see that their marvelous work dwindles down to meaninglessness.

If only SOE would have held their word and would have taken care of the game the way it deserved, they might have turned the boat around and kept Vanguard alive and floating. Right now, who in their sane mind would start playing a game like this seriously when there is no chance of new content comng out anytime soon?

In sight of recent events in the industry, I think the best chance for Vanguard to survive ist to bring in alot of new players by doing what others have done sucessfully: go free-to-play. SOE already has everything in place to do this. They have expereince with microtransactions from Free Realms and even recently with EQ as well as a cash store. Vanguard also could support all kind of store items like mounts, housing items and plots, etc. Should Vanguard ever be able to generate money, only then there might be new content and a future coming.

Anyway, some time ago Brad posted an extensive VG post-mortem on his blog which is a very interesting read for anyone interested, especially the comments.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

I feel happy for you that you're so optimistic about Vanguard but ... why is free-to-play always the answer brought up by people now? What's so great about it? I tried DDO and that uses micro-transactions to fund the game. Personally, I don't like it very much. Entropia does the same thing. They're both, technically, free-to-play. However, what I don't like about micro-transactions is they're often not capped on a per month basis. So the company can get the players addicted and then encourage them to spend vast amounts per month to get ahead of the pack. If there's no cap put in place, say a $40 per month cap or something of that nature, then I personally do not feel micro-transactions are an answer. They're, simply, a way for companies to get more money than they did on a subscription plan. (and i mourn for those that get addicted to spending)

[thefloydian]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel happy for you that you're so optimistic about Vanguard but ... why is free-to-play always the answer brought up by people now? What's so great about it? I tried DDO and that uses micro-transactions to fund the game. Personally, I don't like it very much. Entropia does the same thing. They're both, technically, free-to-play. However, what I don't like about micro-transactions is they're often not capped on a per month basis. So the company can get the players addicted and then encourage them to spend vast amounts per month to get ahead of the pack. If there's no cap put in place, say a $40 per month cap or something of that nature, then I personally do not feel micro-transactions are an answer. They're, simply, a way for companies to get more money than they did on a subscription plan. (and i mourn for those that get addicted to spending)

I think the point is that regardless of how you feel about the free-to-play model, it has worked for other games that looked as if they were about to die.

[Japan]

Originally Posted by Yinikren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vanguard was an amazing game. Fuck Japan and all you naysayers.

i played to level cap at launch.

80% of my playtime was spent in zones that hadn't been itemized (not even coin drops) and had no quests. The game was shit.

[Ardenya]

Originally Posted by thefloydian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the point is that regardless of how you feel about the free-to-play model, it has worked for other games that looked as if they were about to die.

Exactly, thats my point. Personally, I detest micropayments, Station/Cryptic Store and the likes. I have played many games over the years but not once did I buy anything for a game with real money besides the montly access fee. Especially the combination of a subscription and a store like SOE does it smells very fishy to me. As soon as something store-bought would affect my gameplay in a way that it felt needed (the only way to respec, xp potions to speed up a boring and long grind to a bearable level) I would probably stop playing altogether.

Still, as seen with DDO, for a dying game switching from a sub to F2P with a cash store might be a great way to introduce new players to a game by taking away the entry barrier of a sub. Although I fully agree with you stormlord, F2P and item stores leave a bad taste, just as SOE's latest invention: EQ2 Extended. Every sensible customer will realize that hes better off just paying the monthly sub. Yet, its an interesting concept to introduce a more flexible way of paying for what you want in a product.

Lets face it, there are many people like me who would love to play VG and pay for it but simply wont put money into a dead product. I realize that content and dev support comes with subs and increased revenue rates but this train is long gone. I have payed and played it for over 1.5 years and seen APW (VG's raiding dungeon which was very fun actually) take a what, a year to be released, the promised follow-up raid zone Nexus and all other additional content which is not daily quests to grind to be postponed until further notice. It was about then when I canceled my sub. Now if the game itself was F2P I would at least play it which by itself is an improvement.

[Rayun]

I might give this game a try, if anyone is interested send me a pm

[dallammarr]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I moved directly from VG to eqemu. I haven't played in about.. 3 years? The raid zone was due to open when I retired. AQ or something like that.

http://vgplayers.station.sony.com/ch...Id=51539726404

Best single player game ever :P

The raid dungeon is called Ancient Port Warehouse (APW) and was designed for people aroun level 50 which was the level cap at the time. The level cap is now 55 which a new raid zone was designed for called Pantheon of the Ancients. I did most of APW, it was fun, but stopped playing soon after that. VG was indeed one of the best MMOs around, sad shame it has no real future.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Ardenya [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly, thats my point. Personally, I detest micropayments, Station/Cryptic Store and the likes. I have played many games over the years but not once did I buy anything for a game with real money besides the montly access fee. Especially the combination of a subscription and a store like SOE does it smells very fishy to me. As soon as something store-bought would affect my gameplay in a way that it felt needed (the only way to respec, xp potions to speed up a boring and long grind to a bearable level) I would probably stop playing altogether.

Still, as seen with DDO, for a dying game switching from a sub to F2P with a cash store might be a great way to introduce new players to a game by taking away the entry barrier of a sub. Although I fully agree with you stormlord, F2P and item stores leave a bad taste, just as SOE's latest invention: EQ2 Extended. Every sensible customer will realize that hes better off just paying the monthly sub. Yet, its an interesting concept to introduce a more flexible way of paying for what you want in a product.

Lets face it, there are many people like me who would love to play VG and pay for it but simply wont put money into a dead product. I realize that content and dev support comes with subs and increased revenue rates but this train is long gone. I have payed and played it for over 1.5 years and seen APW (VG's raiding dungeon which was very fun actually) take a what, a year to be released, the promised follow-up raid zone Nexus and all other additional content which is not daily quests to grind to be postponed until further notice. It was about then when I canceled my sub. Now if the game itself was F2P I would at least play it which by itself is an improvement.

Point taken, but please understand that if DDO hadn't been free-to-play I probably would not have tried it. But the fact that I tried it does not mean micro-transactions are a success and that free-to-play will always work. I would rather like to see capped micro-transactions, especially if you can buy things that directly impact gameplay, or something else altogether different like ad revenue or payed-for customer service. I don't think that free-to-play is the only answer, and I think it's trendy to bring it up because micro-transactions are becoming increasingly popular. I think companies are starting to find out they can make MORE money with them than without them precisely because there's no cap. A middelman is needed to stop this mess.

And most other free games that i've seen that, to be honest, are not on the same level of games that I've payed for. There's this whole argument that no-strings-attached free games can be just as good as p2p games, but I've never seen an example that satisfied me. But i've never cared that free games don't have the same quality because I usually overlook that in favor of just playing the game; project1999 is a good example. And it seems like micro-transactions are the new ploy to get people to pay money to play. Games like DDO are NOT free, and people creating an account because they think it's are being misled.

Besides, I got tired of DDOs gameplay style as well. Yes, it's true that micro-transactions make the whole thing feel sour, but I also hated being rushed by groups when doing quests. I had the most fun in DDO when I was alone by myself and doing things solo, but then I would always get a desire to join a group. The problem in DDO is that in a group everyone is rushed to keep up and to complete the tasks. It's hard to enjoy the story and immersion when you can't go at your own pace. That really ruined it for me, in addition to the bad feeling micro-transactions give me. Before DDO I was playing Entropia Universe. In that game micro-transactions are even worse and totally spoil it. So to be fair, I went into DDO with a very bad taste in my mouth already.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Ardenya [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

..... I have payed and played it for over 1.5 years and seen APW (VG's raiding dungeon which was very fun actually) take a what, a year to be released, the promised follow-up raid zone Nexus and all other additional content which is not daily quests to grind to be postponed until further notice. It was about then when I canceled my sub. Now if the game itself was F2P I would at least play it which by itself is an improvement.

Your perspective is different because you've tried VG. VG is failing because of those people who HAVEN'T tried it. So no matter what you think VG is or isn't, you're probably missing the point.

When Vanguard released I watched it. I didn't have a computer that could run it, but I kept track of what was going on. To be honest, I think it was a disaster. I also regret them removing some of hte things like the EE system for items where you could remove one slot and equip a more powerful item in another. Months turned into years and before long I hardly recognized Vanguard. And it was the same story over and over. People left. The game has always been dying. It doesn't ever seem to get better no matter what it does. It's like that child that gets an illness and no matter how many people pray for it god and his angels still claim its life.

Have you considered that maybe there's no answer? Maybe Vanguard will in fact die? The Matrix did. It's kind of a darn shame too because now I wish I had tried The Matrix. There's just so many MMOs now that it's impossible for me to filter all of them. I get tied up in the one I'm doing and it's like all the others don't exist.

Besides, if project1999 is hte last MMO I play, that wouldn't be so bad.

You know what I really want? I want project1999 with upgraded graphics and upgraded systems and just all around everything is upgraded. Keep the gameplay. Maybe add a more robust travel system - maybe just add some more bind points or something. I like eq's gameplay this way, mostly, but it's just so old in so many ways. Pathing mechanics suck. The UI sucks. A lot of things suck, but I overlook it all to play the game. It's not that bad. If you want to group in this game, you can. If you want to solo, you can. In fact, if solo is preferred you can do a necro or mage or druid and you'll coast. It's a great playstyle for people who like to do two things at once. Like clean your house or watch tv or work on a small proejct while doing this game at the same time. Those things are almost impossible to do at the same time if you're in a group. Grouping is very limiting.

To be honest, I'll probably never see a real EQ 2. It'll always disappoint me. The real journey is in single player RPGs. With those, you can customize the game to your preferences. It can be what you want it to be and not some generic ripoff of the latest trends in gaming. I still play games that're 20 years old and have fun. I see no reason to rush. I like to appreciate all of it. And best of all, I can do it all at my own pace.

I could pop open an old pen&paper game from the 1970's and I'm confident that I could grab any random person in this game and have a good tabletop session for the night. It's all about customizing the game to yourself. With those kinds of games you could change the rules. It was every bit as satisfying and a lot more social.

So... I'm not going to sweat over Vanguard or the latest MMORPG. Life will go on with or without it.

[dallammarr]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your perspective is different because you've tried VG. VG is failing because of those people who HAVEN'T tried it. So no matter what you think VG is or isn't, you're probably missing the point.

When Vanguard released I watched it. I didn't have a computer that could run it, but I kept track of what was going on. To be honest, I think it was a mess. I also regret them removing some of hte things like the EE system for items where you could remove one slot and equip a more powerful item in another. Months turned into years and before long I hardly recognized Vanguard. And it was the same story over and over. People left. The game has always been dying. It doesn't ever seem to get better no matter what it does. It's like that child that gets an illness and no matter how many people pray for it god and his angels still claim its life.

Have you considered that maybe there's no answer? Maybe Vanguard will in fact die? The Matrix did. It's kind of a darn shame too because now I wish I had tried The Matrix. There's just so many MMOs now that it's impossible for me to filter all of them. I get tied up in the one I'm doing and it's like all the others don't exist.

VG is not only dieing because of those who have not tried it, its dieing also becuase SOE doesnt care to promote the game. Granted it didnt have a lot of players due to its shoddy launch, but the game was fairly bustleing for about 2 years after its launch. Then last year Silius dropped the bomb stating that basically after Pantheon, all other plans for more raid zones and content would be shelved (save for Magi Hold which is fun but doesnt take long to complete and really isn't Raid, its mostly solo/group content for post 50). Also in that announcement, Silius stated that they were "considering a server merge." The truth is SOE knew with news like that, most players would end up leaving therefore making it feasable for them to kill off almost all the servers and now the game is simply on life support. 1 of 2 things will most likely happen. 1. SOE will pull the plug on it with in a year or two as it did with Matrix. 2. it will go f2p, which might give it enough life to live to make it to the launch of EQ next, and then depending upon the revenue generated from VG at the time EQ next is launched, they will make a decision on what to do with VG. One thing you can bet on is they are not going to develop anymore content for it, not anytime in the near future atleast so eventually once you have several alts at level 55, theres nothing more to do.