Instead of arguing over Ogre FSI, which class is Ogre best at?

[Dolalin]

Troll regen is a whopping 2 and 3 per tick extra until 49. Is that *really* worth a 25% racial xp penalty?

[Gustoo]

Yes exp penalities are not even a factor in this discussion.

Ogre stun means you can tank things like lodizel and live a lot better than without it.

Frankly I'd rather this topic not be settled.

In classic era there is an argument for the troll just because less of these hyper mobs are around and all the meta stuff is kinda level 60 epic stuff. also less Regen items in classic era so troll may be justified for some people in classic. Deep maybe

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troll regen is a whopping 2 and 3 per tick extra until 49. Is that *really* worth a 25% racial xp penalty?

The exp penalty isn't just regen. It's slam, high stats, and infravision as well.

I don't have the exact numbers offhand but it's something like twice the regen rate. That means you will be able to fight twice as often as melee and in the case of shaman's ~50% converted to mana.

[Vexenu]

Regen is incredibly overrated from 1-50. It absolutely does NOT offset the XP penalty. Not even close. A level 49 Troll regens 6 hp sitting and 2 standing. A level 49 Human regens 3 hp sitting and 1 standing. So in exchange for regenning a whopping additional 30 hp per minute while sitting, the Troll eats a 20% XP penalty. If you're mostly standing (i.e. grouping with a healer) the regen is even more pathetic, literally an extra 10 hp per minute. Absolutely inconsequential and unnoticeable.

That being said, regen really takes off in the upper 50s and becomes noticeable. But even then it's really more of a benefit for Necros, Monks and Shaman than SKs or Warriors. A Troll SK who mostly duoed with a Shaman would be the strongest tank beneficiary of regen. A Warrior who is mostly being CHed doesn't benefit nearly as much.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Regen is incredibly overrated from 1-50. It absolutely does NOT offset the XP penalty. Not even close. A level 49 Troll regens 6 hp sitting and 2 standing. A level 49 Human regens 3 hp sitting and 1 standing. So in exchange for regenning a whopping additional 30 hp per minute while sitting, the Troll eats a 20% XP penalty. If you're mostly standing (i.e. grouping with a healer) the regen is even more pathetic, literally an extra 10 hp per minute. Absolutely inconsequential and unnoticeable.

That being said, regen really takes off in the upper 50s and becomes noticeable. But even then it's really more of a benefit for Necros, Monks and Shaman than SKs or Warriors. A Troll SK who mostly duoed with a Shaman would be the strongest tank beneficiary of regen. A Warrior who is mostly being CHed doesn't benefit nearly as much.

Once AGAIN the exp penalty to trolls isn't just regen; they shit all over humans on raw stats and racial slam.

[aaezil]

Ogre is irrelevant for warrior

Gear makes up for lower stats

Kick lvl 55+ stuns anyway

Play what looks best

[Baler]

Originally Posted by aaezil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ogre is irrelevant for warrior

Gear makes up for lower stats

Kick lvl 55+ stuns anyway

Play what looks best

That's simply not true and you know it. The difference between a tank that's stunned and a tank that's not stunned is 1-2 plus more procs to keep agro on them and off everyone else. And even if you don't consider procs, there is still melee dps agro being done by a non stunned tank.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once AGAIN the exp penalty to trolls isn't just regen; they shit all over humans on raw stats and racial slam.

No argument, Trolls are way better statistically. But do they kill 20% faster, enough to offset the XP penalty? If you sit down and do the math I think you will quickly see it's very clear they do not.

[aaezil]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's simply not true and you know it. The difference between a tank that's stunned and a tank that's not stunned is 1-2 plus more procs to keep agro on them and off everyone else. And even if you don't consider procs, there is still melee dps agro being done by a non stunned tank.

Being stunned for 1 second has never made me lose aggro - sounds like you’re blowing it out of proportion

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ogre stun means you can tank things like lodizel and live a lot better than without it.

We're getting into actual fantasy now. This kind of proves my point about Ogres providing a confidence boost for some folks. If it makes you feel that way--good, it's doing its job. In a game that's mostly mental in the first place, that's as fair a reason as any (and better than most) to pick a race if it makes a person feel that way.

Baler: Log parsing has shown the average threat per minute difference between Ogre and non-Ogre Warrior is on the order of a couple per cent. It's not even particularly relevant WITHOUT the widespread use of mallets/etc.

Not going to claim Ogre is bad. It isn't; it's quite often the min-max choice. I only claim its advantage isn't so pronounced as some folks believe, and at any rate min/maxing is largely unnecessary in a game so loosely-tuned as this one.

Danth