Tunnel Gear - Warrior Weapons

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Poison/disease counters did generate hate on P99 before. That is why Infestation was a highly sought after Warrior weapon for years. You may not have seen that since you joined in 2023. After the 2022 patch I linked previously, people stopped using weapons that relied on poison/disease counters like Infestation. Raid Warriors usually have a good understanding/feel for their weapon hate. So I believe people when they say poison/disease counter hate changed. I just haven't tested it myself.

Agreed. Not refuting that it changed, fully aware that these items like WESS and Infestation were go to top tier agro weapons a few years back.

More so that the change is working as intended and that the counters producing hate in the past was likely a bug not a feature.

Just thinking through playing on a shaman for example, if the counters added additional hate it would make it incredibly rare for a shaman to ever not have agro on a mob (certainly in a solo or group situation, but even in raids we often see shaman deaths as it is today without hate from the counters).

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah I read that, both the patch and the supposedly buggy poison/disease counters. Nothing super informative in the end. Seems like we'll never know until someone tests it out and that seems like a painstaking process.



Maybe im dumb but it seems hard to isolate a proc value from swing hate noise. You'd have to account for hate done in real time or be lucky and proc on the first swing.

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed. Not refuting that it changed, fully aware that these items like WESS and Infestation were go to top tier agro weapons a few years back.

More so that the change is working as intended and that the counters producing hate in the past was likely a bug not a feature.

Just thinking through playing on a shaman for example, if the counters added additional hate it would make it incredibly rare for a shaman to ever not have agro on a mob (certainly in a solo or group situation, but even in raids we often see shaman deaths as it is today without hate from the counters).

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification!

Yes, disease/poison counters were an issue for Shamans.

https://youtu.be/umuVBewCNgY?feature=shared

This is a video I made in 2020 showing how to have your pet tank a Cliff Golem. I used Epic and JBB to do most of the work rather than relying on Disease/Poison spells due to the hate generation from those spells.

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

Yeah testing hate shouldn't be difficult. You can do it with a pet class or with two players. Just need to be precise when it comes to counting swings/procs/spell casts.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

The proc on WESS is a blind, which actually have aggro rules on their own, more than just hate. It acts like a root when people are in melee range (mob attacks closest) and acts like a fear when there is nobody on the hate list in melee range (mob runs away).

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification!

Yes, disease/poison counters were an issue for Shamans.

https://youtu.be/umuVBewCNgY?feature=shared

This is a video I made in 2020 showing how to have your pet tank a Cliff Golem. I used Epic and JBB to do most of the work rather than relying on Disease/Poison spells due to the hate generation from those spells.



Yeah testing hate shouldn't be difficult. You can do it with a pet class or with two players. Just need to be precise when it comes to counting swings/procs/spell casts.

It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

IIIRC hate generated is weap damage + damage bonus on every swing, no matter the outcome (hit or miss).

WESS would be 22 on every swing + proc. Then you turn auto attack off and turn around to eliminate ripostes. Theoretically that's 22 x (swings#)+800.

Then someone else tries to rip aggro with bio orb and counts how many tries it takes, assuming an orb is 800 hate a pop. Also assuming the 4 poison counters on WESS do zero hate.

The thing is it says its up to 400 hate per SPA but we don't know post nerf if blind does 400 and if -5atk is "strong" enough to cap at 400. Assuming both procs have the same value, it would be (swing hate value)/(bio orb casts)+1cast to get even hate then you see if a minor hate generation like 1 swing or a very low level DD rips it off.

But then you cornered the value of 1 proc effect. 800 is a lot of hate but for a weapon with snare we don't know how much it is. I guess you could have a wizard nuke for (swinghatevalue) and then start nuking in 50dmg increments until they rip aggro?

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

Yeah I don't know for dragons but when charming I can pretty much stick pet and throw tash right away and I never gain aggro. Usually I follow immediately with fetter and forlorn and I'm not gaining aggro either. (Hasted and torched pets hurts quick though). Theft of thought will usually rip aggro if you don't wait a bit so you're at least getting the full 1200 hate from that.

[PatChapp]

Bio orb generates a lot of hate, I think blind still does the 400 per.

If you have access to a wizard,flux staff is great for measuring haye. Its fixed hate per click and instant

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The proc on WESS is a blind, which actually have aggro rules on their own, more than just hate. It acts like a root when people are in melee range (mob attacks closest) and acts like a fear when there is nobody on the hate list in melee range (mob runs away).

That's why Bio Orb would be a great comparable item to test since its literally the same effect line for line minus the poison counter component. The blind isn't too big of a consideration as once the effect wears off it would choose who to pursue based on normal hate/agro table. But yes small chance of false results if the mob flips due to a blind and not overtaking agro.

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

Makes sense, without the counter contributing to hate its really just a minor resist debuff, should have similar hate to a click of a flux staff from a wizard for example. Whether that aligns with classic in era I can't say for sure, but certainly aligns with our knowledge of hate/agro mechanics on P99 currently.

[zelld52]

Update: After reaching level 49 - I have some stats.

Here's my weapons I've been using.

1 Handers : Swiftblade of Zek, Frostbringer, Paebala Warbone, Sebilite Croaking Dirk
2 Hander: Herbalist Spade

Best DPS / Aggro: SBoZ +Sebilite Croaking Dirk. Having two 18 delay weapons + 34% worn (and if lucky, spell haste) - I'm able to pull aggro off a shaman slowing just using Taunt + White Damage. Can also hold aggro with epic rogue backstabbing. No procs needed. Frostbringer is also very good aggro when it procs, but the DPS is very slightly lower than the Dirk in offhand.

I imagine the DPS will change when I reach 51+ and the weapon skills exceed 200. Along with double attack, riposte and Offense. I expect the Herbalist Spade to take over as top DPS.

As it stands now, the fast 1 handers are better DPS and threat. Hoping to nab a slick ToV 2-Hander within the next few weeks.