Project Quarm - 1 Box Planes of Power

[Secrets]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But let's run with that plan of waiting to see how bad the cheating is before you address it. Just one other simple question then: how are you going to know whether you have a cheating problem or not?

Again, the whole core problem is that these cheaters aren't detectable.

People are social creatures. In my opinion, we'll know very quickly because those who brag are loud and bolsterous. Just the other day I had someone come in my stream and say "Yeah, I fucking cheat. I'm going to be using it here too as I did on P99." and while I have no way of verifying they did, I'm going to put people like that under higher scrutiny, and their guildmembers will also put them under higher scrutiny if they know the risk if them getting banned or their guild disbanded over a few rotten eggs.

Personally, I'd take direct admissions with enough context to remove someone, outside of the other detections - provided we have enough facts to act on. That doesn't mean you'll be banned for saying 'im 12 and what is this' for being underage, it means that there's context and some sort of legitimacy to the claim that results in the action.

This is exactly how P99 operates right now, by the way - the fear is prevalent for getting banned, and it only took Rogean & co a few banwaves before people shaped up and subsequently accused him of malware claims as a last-ditch effort to get people to stop playing, because 'if they can't, no one else should be able to'.

There's a human psychology element to this, of course. But also, P99 can't detect SEQ any more than Quarm would be able to, in theory that you're describing.

They can, though, for stuff running local like MySEQ. And they have banned for that here, I'd assume.

[Seducio]

Project Quarm is something I am excited about. In lieu of Green 2.0 it is the closest we'll get to a classic experience until Green 2.0 comes out. At which point Quarm will most likely be in a different expansion. Assuming Secrets maintains the 9 month expansion release schedule this appears to be a tentative timeline that players could expect. (Subject to change prior to launch.)

10-1-2023 Project Quarm launches
1-1-2024 Legacy Items removed
7-1-2024 Kunark Launches
4-1-2025 Velious Lauches
1-1-2026 Luclin Launches
10-1-2026 PoP Launches

I predict that many P99ers that try Project Quarm will have some issues with the client. Mousewheel and the camera are very smooth on the Titanium client. P99ers have grown accustomed to this. On the Project Quarm it is a not quite as smooth. It's an special add on to the EQMac client that TAKP doesn't have. It isn't quite as robust as P99's mousewheel as that came built into Titanium, which was from many years after Velious was released.

There are a few fixes that help with Project Quarms mousewheel, but none make it quite as good as p99. One fix is to limit the fps to 60, 45, or eve 30 rather than unlimited. Another fix is to Invert Y axis in options. The last fix is to use /inspect off to turn off inspecting yourself. These three will help you get closer to a p99 experience although it won't be the same. Secrets has said this might get looked at for improvement down the line, but it currently isn't a priority compared with other tasks to get the server going.

P99ers that can get over the client differences will be able to relive a Classic like experience in one months time. Then starting Jan 1st 2026 PQ will release Luclin followed by PoP later in the year further separating it philosophy wise from other one box EMU like p99.

[Evia]

crazy to think we will have to wait until 2026 before we get to taste luclin

[Seducio]

TAKP is a great place to check out Luclin in the meantime.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But also, P99 can't detect SEQ any more than Quarm would be able to, in theory that you're describing.

Yeah, I forgot ShowEQ didn't have to be on the same machine ... and probably wouldn't be, unless you're a weirdo like me who plays EQ on Linux.

I still don't buy that all (or even most) cheaters will be dumb enough to out themselves, but you're right that some ShowEQ usage is just unavoidable, for any EQEmu server. The only real solution is to limit data sent by the server.

(As an aside, I'm very curious about how much the server can limit data sent to the client, and how much "ShowEQ data" has to be sent, just because of how the EQ client works.)

Anyhow, FWIW I'm now fully convinced Quarm is in good hands in terms of anti-cheating ... even without an invasive anti-cheat. Thank you Secrets for taking the time to engage and explain it all [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Vexenu]

I really wish they'd consider just leaving the legacy items out from the beginning. The toxic behavior those camps inevitably encourage just isn't worth it, especially in the crucial early months of the server's life. Plus, it's really not classic seeing so many people running around with them anyway. No one NEEDS a Guise or a Manastone to play EQ. But a lot of people apparently think they do, and almost 100% of those people are guaranteed to be complete assholes, and are definitely not the sort of players you want to cater toward.

The necessity of /list on Green should be instructive. It was a solid creative effort by the Devs to avoid a completely unmanageable, toxic fiasco at those camps on a daily basis, but it still had a ton of drawbacks and encouraged a lot of really unhealthy behavior. Given that the stated goal of Quarm leans toward quality of life over strict, diabolical adherence to What's Classic™, this seems like the sort of change that a lot of people would actually appreciate.

[Lune]

PQ should be 9 months classic, 9 months kunark, 9 months velious, 2-3 years Luclin, eternal PoP.

Something about years and years of Kunark on P99 was just great. Think it gave people time to enjoy the journey, level a couple chars, raid, gear up etc without feeling like it was all going to be obsolete in a few months.

[Seducio]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really wish they'd consider just leaving the legacy items out from the beginning. The toxic behavior those camps inevitably encourage just isn't worth it, especially in the crucial early months of the server's life. Plus, it's really not classic seeing so many people running around with them anyway. No one NEEDS a Guise or a Manastone to play EQ. But a lot of people apparently think they do, and almost 100% of those people are guaranteed to be complete assholes, and are definitely not the sort of players you want to cater toward.

The necessity of /list on Green should be instructive. It was a solid creative effort by the Devs to avoid a completely unmanageable, toxic fiasco at those camps on a daily basis, but it still had a ton of drawbacks and encouraged a lot of really unhealthy behavior. Given that the stated goal of Quarm leans toward quality of life over strict, diabolical adherence to What's Classic™, this seems like the sort of change that a lot of people would actually appreciate.

I don't really get this perspective. If I were you and had this mindset yet still wanted to play classic it would mean I could go everywhere except these three camps: drelzna, EE, and ass/sup during the first three months of the server life and avoid the exact types of players I don't like. As long as you pick up jboots in oot after Month 4 and don't need a stone or a guise then everyone wins.

Almost as if the devs were looking out for casuals who didn't care about legacy items by creating a magnetic effect to certains camps/parts of the game you could purposefully avoid.

Those who want to weather legacy item camps can and those that want to avoid that drama can be rest assured most of those willing to fight for the legacy items are tied up for the first 3 months.

[Seducio]

Also who doesn't love that super rare random Box of Abu-kar drop off any mob over level 35.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Seducio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't really get this perspective. If I were you and had this mindset yet still wanted to play classic it would mean I could go everywhere except these three camps: drelzna, EE, and ass/sup during the first three months of the server life and avoid the exact types of players I don't like. As long as you pick up jboots in oot after Month 4 and don't need a stone or a guise then everyone wins.

Almost as if the devs were looking out for casuals who didn't care about legacy items by creating a magnetic effect to certains camps/parts of the game you could purposefully avoid.

Those who want to weather legacy item camps can and those that want to avoid that drama can be rest assured most of those willing to fight for the legacy items are tied up for the first 3 months.

The problem is that everyone wants these items, because they are objectively powerful, and so will try to obtain them if they are available. But their very existence creates a perverse incentive, because their strictly limited droppable timeline creates an artificial scarcity that encourages toxic player behavior. On Green you had people staying awake for days at time, sharing accounts or using third-party programs to remain on the list. And in the absence of a feature like /list on Quarm, the competition will be even more brutal, and play behavior will be commensurately more toxic. This not only creates a miserable server environment for players, it necessitates extensive GM intervention, both of which are highly undesirable outcomes.

When you dangle a very desirable reward in front of people, they will invariably be tempted to go after it, even if by doing so they are forced to engage in behavior they would otherwise find objectionable, or perhaps even unthinkable. For an example of this phenomenon, remember the show 'Fear Factor'? Yeah. The same psychology that drives someone to eat a plateful of cockroaches for a chance at winning $50,000 also underlies their desire to spend 45 straight hours camping a Manastone, or (in the absence of a list) KSing or training other players to steal one. It is simply human nature: when the reward is attractive enough and seemingly just within our reach, we'll do just about anything to obtain it.

The only ways to avoid the disruption caused by legacy items is to either 1) leave them in the game indefinitely, or 2) remove them entirely. The former would create an environment that is completely unclassic, as literally everyone would be running around with Guises and Manastones. But the latter would create an environment that is actually much closer to the EQ that most people played, where legacy items were very rare. This is why I view it as the best option. Frankly, there is no ideal solution to the problem of legacy items. But if they were to be left in-game and not removed entirely, I think a good compromise would be simply adding them to the Naggy/Vox loot table as rare drops. This would maintain a high level of scarcity on these items (preserving both their value and the classic feel) while removing the artificial time limit constraints on them (which largely removes the toxicity they create at their respective camps).