SK Leveling: Vindi BP and Fungi Tunic

[Crede]

Fungi is the most broken item in the game. There’s no reason to ever take it off except for fashion. A troll/iksar epic/ring 10 sk can regen 87/tick standing with epic proc. This is insanely good. Sks should be stacking regen more than probably any other class.

[Snaggles]

The key factor is “level 30”. Fungi and it’s not even close.

Whenever solo or even a scrappy duo/trio the extra regen is ace. The better rounded the group or raid, the less it’s necessary. I’ll take the hps, attack, and svs in that case, especially if I’m the target of a CH.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

From levels 1-45 or so, Fungi will be better when soloing and grouping. This is because mobs levels 1-39 are significantly weaker than mobs level 40+. The 150 hp/minute regen does a great job of keeping pace with the mob's average DPS, and you have a smaller max HP pool at lower levels. This means it takes less time at lower levels to get back to 100% HP.

Fungi is also great at all levels when fear kiting. You can avoid a lot of meditation downtime by using clickies and regen items while fear kiting.

When you reach level 50+, I would use Vindi over Fungi when tanking in a normal group.

Vindi BP gives you at least 150 max HP when you are level 50+ and not STA capped. This means you are soaking 1 minutes worth of Fungi Tunic regen per heal that puts you back to 100% HP. The extra AC from Vindi is reducing the damage you take, and the AoB is still giving you 20 HP/Minute. Vindi BP can easily soak more than 150 damage per minute, depending on how often you get hit and healed.

The resistances also help a lot when dealing with casters, which will put Vindi BP further ahead of Fungi in those scenarios. Having 15+ all res on a single item may allow you to swap out less gear for resistance gear, meaning you may be able to keep more AC and HP gear on.

[Vexenu]

DSM returns!

wb

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM returns!

wb

Thanks!

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you reach level 50+, I would use Vindi over Fungi when tanking in a normal group.

this is really only true if your "normal" group is cleric + slower

if no cleric and slows, its fungi all the way

lots of off meta small groups happen nowadays since people have realized 5 and 6 man groups suck ass

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this is really only true if your "normal" group is cleric + slower

if no cleric and slows, its fungi all the way

lots of off meta small groups happen nowadays since people have realized 5 and 6 man groups suck ass

I agree that groups of 5 or 6 people generally suck for XP. People have known that for years.

We can do some basic math. Fungi Tunic reduces average DPS by 15 HP / 6 seconds (1 Tick) = 2.5 DPS.

When you are fighting lower level mobs that do 5 DPS, Fungi Tunic is reducing the DPS you take by 50%. That is obviously huge. This is why Fungi Tunic is so broken at lower levels.

When you are fighting higher level mobs that do 30 DPS, Fungi Tunic is reducing the DPS you take by 8.3%, which is much smaller. That is the downside to Fungi Tunic as a defensive item. Mob DPS increases as you level, while Fungi Tunic DPS reduction remains constant.

AC reduces more damage at higher levels, due to mobs dealing more damage. This is talking about normal mobs, not something like AoW that generally doesn't care about AC.

If you look at a Ratfink in PoM, this is it's damage table:

[28, 33, 38, 44, 49, 55, 60, 66, 71, 77, 82, 88, 93, 99, 104, 110, 115, 121, 126, 132]

Unslowed mobs get 1 attack per 2 seconds, and from my understanding have roughly a 50% chance to double attack when they are in their 40s. This means on average the mob will attempt to hit you 45 times, with a miss rate of 50%. So you'll be taking roughly 22 hits per minute. Last time I checked I think my SK was preventing roughly 10% of all hits with dodge, parry, and riposte. So you'll get hit around 20 times per minute via a Ratfink.

I don't have the numbers to guarantee this is the case, but if the extra 24 AC from Vindi BP is reducing the damage roll you'll get by 1 on average, this means you'll be saving 5 or 6 damage per hit. 5.5 x 20 = 110 HP per minute, and you get 20 HP per minute from AoB. That means Vindi BP is saving 130 HP per minute on average compared to 150 HP per minute via Fungi Tunic at higher levels. If you get healed to full once every 7 minutes, you'll get that 20 HP difference back due to Vindi BP giving you 150+ max HP.

It's pretty easy to see that Vindi BP will generally at least break even with Fungi Tunic when it comes to damage reduction while tanking non-caster mobs. Additionally, it can reduce more damage as well if the extra AC reduces the damage roll by more than one, or if you get healed to full more often than once every 7 minutes. With casting mobs you'll see an even larger gain with Vindi BP, as you are increasing the chances of reducing or nullifying damage from a spell. Levels 50+ you are more likely to run into casters, and casters at higher levels tend to have decent damage on their spells.

If you are slowing most mobs, then Fungi Tunic gets better in some cases. This is because you'll reduce 30 DPS down to 10 DPS, which means Fungi Tunic is now reducing DPS by 25%. The main thing people forget to take into account when dealing with higher level mobs is damage spikes. If a mob gets lucky and happens to double attack twice for 132 damage in 8 seconds, you've now gotten nuked for 528 damage. Fungi Tunic will only reduce 15 of that damage in that 8 second timeframe. Extra AC could reduce the damage rolls on multiple max hits, saving you potentially 100+ HP. Depending on how many mobs are attacking you, and how much HP you have remaining, that could be the difference between life and death when waiting for a heal to come in. That is the other downside to Fungi Tunic. It cannot soak a lot of damage in a short time frame during damage spikes, where AC and Resists can.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree that groups of 5 or 6 people generally suck for XP. People have known that for years.

We can do some basic math. Fungi Tunic reduces average DPS by 15 HP / 6 seconds (1 Tick) = 2.5 DPS.

When you are fighting lower level mobs that do 5 DPS, Fungi Tunic is reducing the DPS you take by 50%. That is obviously huge. This is why Fungi Tunic is so broken at lower levels.

When you are fighting higher level mobs that do 30 DPS, Fungi Tunic is reducing the DPS you take by 8.3%, which is much smaller. That is the downside to Fungi Tunic as a defensive item. Mob DPS increases as you level, while Fungi Tunic DPS reduction remains constant.

AC reduces more damage at higher levels, due to mobs dealing more damage. This is talking about normal mobs, not something like AoW that generally doesn't care about AC.

If you look at a Ratfink in PoM, this is it's damage table:

[28, 33, 38, 44, 49, 55, 60, 66, 71, 77, 82, 88, 93, 99, 104, 110, 115, 121, 126, 132]

Unslowed mobs get 1 attack per 2 seconds, and from my understanding have roughly a 50% chance to double attack when they are in their 40s. This means on average the mob will attempt to hit you 45 times, with a miss rate of 50%. So you'll be taking roughly 22 hits per minute. Last time I checked I think my SK was preventing roughly 10% of all hits with dodge, parry, and riposte. So you'll get hit around 20 times per minute via a Ratfink.

I don't have the numbers to guarantee this is the case, but if the extra 24 AC from Vindi BP is reducing the damage roll you'll get by 1 on average, this means you'll be saving 5 or 6 damage per hit. 5.5 x 20 = 110 HP per minute, and you get 20 HP per minute from AoB. That means Vindi BP is saving 130 HP per minute on average compared to 150 HP per minute via Fungi Tunic at higher levels. If you get healed to full once every 7 minutes, you'll get that 20 HP difference back due to Vindi BP giving you 150+ max HP.

It's pretty easy to see that Vindi BP will generally at least break even with Fungi Tunic when it comes to damage reduction while tanking non-caster mobs. Additionally, it can reduce more damage as well if the extra AC reduces the damage roll by more than one, or if you get healed to full more often than once every 7 minutes. With casting mobs you'll see an even larger gain with Vindi BP, as you are increasing the chances of reducing or nullifying damage from a spell. Levels 50+ you are more likely to run into casters, and casters at higher levels tend to have decent damage on their spells.

If you are slowing most mobs, then Fungi Tunic gets better in some cases. This is because you'll reduce 30 DPS down to 10 DPS, which means Fungi Tunic is now reducing DPS by 25%. The main thing people forget to take into account when dealing with higher level mobs is damage spikes. If a mob gets lucky and happens to double attack twice for 132 damage in 8 seconds, you've now gotten nuked for 528 damage. Fungi Tunic will only reduce 15 of that damage in that 8 second timeframe. Extra AC could reduce the damage rolls on multiple max hits, saving you potentially 100+ HP. Depending on how many mobs are attacking you, and how much HP you have remaining, that could be the difference between life and death when waiting for a heal to come in. That is the other downside to Fungi Tunic. It cannot soak a lot of damage in a short time frame during damage spikes, where AC and Resists can.

Your math assumes you are taking hits nearly the whole time. What you need to factor in is out of combat stuff too. It's really hard to be engaged with mobs 100% of the time. For example, I was in a seb crypt/emp group recently with a druid healing. He was struggling to keep up with mana as the primary healer even with slows. There's inactive time in that camp, between waiting for spawns & moving between crypt/emp, splitting, etc. Every second you aren't in combat and not at full health(very common with subpar heals) fungi will start to pull away from vindi significantly.

So while vindi bp during tanking may be somewhat equivalent to a fungi in terms of mitigation, generally speaking you're just better off having the fungi equipped the entire time, so you don't miss those inactive benefits that add up to a lot over time, especially when youre healing is subpar. It's hard to find perfect group compositions these days where you have an enc/cleric keeping things running smoothly(they're usually off duoing together).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your math assumes you are taking hits nearly the whole time. What you need to factor in is out of combat stuff too. It's really hard to be engaged with mobs 100% of the time. For example, I was in a seb crypt/emp group recently with a druid healing. He was struggling to keep up with mana as the primary healer even with slows. There's inactive time in that camp, between waiting for spawns & moving between crypt/emp, splitting, etc. Every second you aren't in combat and not at full health(very common with subpar heals) fungi will start to pull away from vindi significantly.

So while vindi bp during tanking may be somewhat equivalent to a fungi in terms of mitigation, generally speaking you're just better off having the fungi equipped the entire time, so you don't miss those inactive benefits that add up to a lot over time, especially when youre healing is subpar. It's hard to find perfect group compositions these days where you have an enc/cleric keeping things running smoothly(they're usually off duoing together).

My analysis is indeed combat focused. OP is asking about Fungi vs Vindi while leveling. Mitigation matters more in xp groups, because good xp groups should be spending significantly more time in combat than solo players. If your xp group has similar downtime and kills per hour as a solo SK, it's probably not a very good xp group.

You can switch to Fungi between kills if your group is struggling with healing between kills. OP has Fungi and Vindi, so they don't need to pick between the two. At higher levels I prefer better mitigation in groups, due to damage spikes. When the druid is OOM the AC, HP, and Resists from Vindi would be more likely to save you in a single short encounter. Personally I often use my Velious Clickly BP out of combat if the healer is struggling, as it is twice as fast as a Fungi. It heals 360 HP/Minute. I don't always need to meditate.

[Troxx]

Aaaaaand ….. here we go again

#napkinmath

The real answer is that Fungi is simply always better for standard xp group content 99.9% of the time.

Vindi does win fashionquest hands down.