Bard / Monk capabilities

[Legidias]

For xp? Ideal is Bard + cleric (or shammy) + 4 rogues. If theres a good charmable mob, you can sub in an enchanter, but you really wont get any better xp than this set up as its primed for maximum kill speed. The group you proposed is like the general "seems good" group, which is basically the opposite from min/max.

I dunno what era you're from, but you got some overlaps in there. Most groups would only want to pick 2 from the cleric / shammy / enchanter classes and not all 3 as they are kinda redundant if you have all of them when you can fill in that slot with DPS or better utility.

Any class is shit if not played properly. A cleric not healing right? dead group. An enchanter not charming / mezzing right? dead group. A tank not holding aggro right? dead group. A monk not pulling right? dead group.

And as I stated in previous post, if nothing else of any of your considerations, bards are the ultimate insurance policy. Grab aggro of 25 mobs and not get killed without heals for 10 secs is a game changer in both group and raid.

[Spyder73]

So for XP groups you are claiming that from 50-60 Bards are good tanks? Ok bud

[Legidias]

Yes.

You do not seem to understand the meaning of "min/max" very well. It doesnt mean to kill stuff in safety, taking your time, as your group was set up to do. It means aiming towards one thing to the maximum, disregarding other factors. Is a bard the BEST damage mitigation tank? hell no. But for xp group you dont need warriors discing everything.

What the bard tank does, is allow the group as a whole to focus on kill speed, maximizing xp / time. Yes there's inherent risk, but thats part of min/max. If you want to be the best tank, you're gonna give up on some DPS. If you want max DPS, you're gonna have to give up on some survivability.

I would even say, a bard is the best part of a goup for max dps the moment it has selo's consonant chain song in your mid-20's. Go anywhere outdoors, grab some DPS group members. You can just snare kite it around while your DPS bash it. It wont lose aggro cause selo's chain is basically the best aggro in the game. You dont take any mana to use it, and no one in the group takes damage. You can keep killing as long as you have energy to be at the keyboard.

[Spyder73]

Bards are one of the worst DPS classes in the game so not sure what you are getting at. And despite you just saying they can tank the reality is they can not tank well 50+ even in sh!t spots like KC. What made them good below 50 is a detriment post 50 (IE Snare/Slow argoing)

[SiouxNation]

A well played bard is without a doubt an extremely valuable tool. A monk has a low ceiling for plays to be made. As laid out here, bard charm plus mezzing is where they shine. Bard is the highest skill cap class in this game, and it’s not even close.

The problem with bards is so many bad ones play here. Anytime I try and give tips to a bad bard they usually just tell me to stop telling them how to play. Meanwhile we’re at ledge in FM and they are standing still playing three songs and not attacking.

If you play bard use your abilities and push the limits, lead and form groups and you will make a name for yourself and have a ton of fun in the process.

[Legidias]

Spyder you still arent understanding what I am saying. Bards as a class by themselves are not the BEST DPS or BEST mitigation. What they do, is allow the group to have the MAXIMUM possible DPS combination. If you have a warrior (or knight) tank, then you will need a second slot filled by slow / haste / cc which again lowers DPS by a significatn amount.

I could tank Kael arena at 58 in thurg gear. Tanking isnt that hard. If you have somewhat decent gear and not leather, KC is a joke to tank in the setup Ive given since mobs die so fast. I even once had a group of me, a monk, and 2 rogues. We would pull mobs into RCY, and I could fear / snare them and the mob would die before getting to the exit door of RCY (roughly 20-30sec kill time). Again, the point of a min/max xp group isnt safety. Its killing speed. With 4 rogues, mobs die so fast you barely take damage. The group composition isnt to tank a mob for ages without taking damage. Its maxed out DPS which means more xp, less damage taken.

[Spyder73]

I'm really not trying to get into a fight with you guys about Bards. I have a 52 Bard I use as a Naggy alt and I love playing him. I am just trying to be realistic about what OP can expect.

There are way too many bad Bards compared to other classes is the main problem, plus I think the XP penalty stigma is just ingrained in some old schoolers.

Example, a Bard who doesn't know how to break his Charms will very quickly have the group asking him to stop charming because it is a nuisance and not a positive to be staring at a mob trying to attack it for 6 seconds wondering wtf is going on. Example, a bard who continues to Mez sh!t when we have an enchanter will very quickly be asked to STOP mezing sh!t because their mez is inferior by A LOT. Example, certain camps your songs become useless due to mob level. Example, Bard refuses to add melee damage and thinks he should just play Cantina with his lute on. Example, Bard will only melee and forgets to keep pumping mana while in combat so he can add in a sh!ty damage shield or some other nonsense. Example, Bard will immediately start Slowing and pulling agro draining healers mana pools because he cant figure out when to cast Slow properly

The examples of bad (and fairly common/easy) mistakes for a Bard is enormous in comparison. A monk does solid DPS and about the only thing they can screw up is pulling too many mobs, dying, or pulling too slowly.

EVEN SO, A perfectly played monk IMO is more desirable on P99 than a perfectly played Bard due to DPS disparity between the 2. DPS is king on P99

[Legidias]

That's fair. Thats also the same reason why theres more monks. They're easier to play. Bards do as much as the effort put into them. Monks more or less are the same across the board.

Besides min/max though, theres the options that a bard has that monks simply dont. As you said, maybe some camps dont suit a bard at some level. Good news is, bards at any level can have a plethora of places to hunt at, whereas monks will probably tend to specific zones and are limited by that.

Going back to OP, if he's worried about soloing / xp at all, theres no question that a bard is better for xp gain. Monks can solo all the way to 51 without a fungi (I just had some crescent gear / black panther and a peacebringer), but it will by far take longer than a bard in cloth gear. I solo'd my monk (also my vox/naggy alt) almost all the way to 51, but it was definitely more annoying than doing so on bard.

[SiouxNation]

So your main argument against bards is that they have more opportunities to mess things up. Doesn’t that mean they inversely have more opportunities to make group changing plays? Every example you cited as a weakness is a benefit that can be gained through correct play.

Meanwhile you claim monks can’t screw things up that bad, to me that means they can’t add all that much. Personally I would prefer to have a properly played rogue and bard vs a monk and a bard.

Bard utility can’t be dismissed simply by saying it could go bad if played incorrectly. That is way to easy to dismantle

[Spyder73]

My main argument is people are going to shun OP from 50-60 because of all the other slap asses that came before him for pick up groups if he is playing a Bard and as a monk will be welcomed with open arms into the 'melee meat grinder' mentality that every HS/Seb/Velk/*insert any other 50+ zone* has on the P99 server.

Everything you are saying is true for Necromancer also, try getting in a pick up group as a Necromancer and tell me how it went.